Indiana Fever select Caitlin Clark at No. 1, J.J. McCarthy "not a first-round pick?" | THE HERD
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- Опубліковано 15 кві 2024
- The Indiana Fever selected Iowa star Caitlin Clark with the No. 1 pick. Colin Cowherd reacts to the Fever's draft pick, then breaks down the impact Clark brings to fans by drawing them to watch the 2024 WNBA Draft. Meanwhile, the 2024 NFL Draft is approaching fast and a few teams are looking to select their future QB, featuring Michigan's J.J. McCarthy. However, a few NFL scouts believe the National Champion is "not a first-round pick" despite being projected to go in the Top 10. Colin Cowherd weighs in on where McCarthy lands and whether his game will translate in the pros.
#TheHerd #NFL #JJMcCarthy
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Indiana Fever select Caitlin Clark at No. 1, J.J. McCarthy "not a first-round pick?" | THE HERD
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No. Its Clark - an athletic/sports phenom like Jordan, Tiger, Williams' sisters - with IA and I values IS what. IA could have started it's OWN league, built it and the world would have watched and come.
@@jbethwal😊
I don't watch the WNBA, but that Caitlin Clark is the best player I ever seen.
Good report. Look and let me hear what is JJ McCarthy’s third down conversion percentage? How many times was JJ McCarthy in third and long third and seven and how many times did he get the first down?
4:08 had to rewind that one
Still trying to figure this one out 😅
Had to turn the captions on to double check
Im still in complete shock how JJ McCarthy is going in the first round. Ive watched every game hes played and i saw him as a 3rd rounder at best.
He’s incredibly mid, but every year there’s that one prospect that’s hyped up for some reason……..I really hope my Vikings don’t draft him, he’s another Kirk Cousins
Yeah the 'winning pedigree' thing is deceiving.
Look at his numbers of 3rd and 7 or more. He was the best in this class on the must pass and the other team knows its coming plays, better than Caleb or Jayden and lets not even discuss Maye's numbers because his team was really bad. When you watch the tape of JJ on these plays, he shows you why he can succeed in the NFL. He will need a little work, but he throws over the middle better than the other QB prospects not named Caleb. Also he is the only one that has taken significant snaps from under center and that is something that all the others will have to adjust to in the NFL.
Not saying he will be a star, but there are signs he could be, and lets not forget he was a 5 star recruit and is just 21 years old. Yes he played on a roster with one of the best offensive lines, but everyone acting like that offense was stacked ???, not one receiver is ranked in the top 10, not one RB is ranked in the top 10 prospects, not his TE either and that was probably his best skill position player. Now 5 O-line will probably be drafted so in that respect he had it better than the others, but the skill talent was not anywhere near top tier.
@@bckfrmthdedI'd be really surprised if he ends up as good as Kurt Cousins
@@bckfrmthded I think comparing him to Kirk is a insult to Kirk. Maybe I'll be wrong but I didn't see one game in McCarthy career to suggest he'll ever be as good of a passer as Cousins
Caitlin Clark elevated an average roster to the championship game.
She’s likable. Plain and simple. No agenda no neck tattoos, speaks in coherent English and doesn’t sound like a mouthpiece for a cause. Not complaining about anything just enjoying the moment.
I'm amazed at how Colin can spend so many lengthy segments on his show saying nothing...
That's why I usually only watch when Klatt or Nick are on. I shouldn't have come for this video.
Yet here you are listening and commenting
LOL I watched this whole thing waiting for him to say something
The thing with J.J no one is ever talking about is what I've been most fascinated with
He's never been asked to be that guy at Michigan, expect in both semi finals games in '22/23 & '23/24 seasons. The guy opened the TCU game with a pick 6 early, and nearly opened the Alabama game with a INT. There is no run game & dominant defense in the NFL similar to Michigan. The 2 biggest games with similar comp he's struggled moving the ball. How is that the route some NFL teams want to go at QB?
Might want to rewatch that TCU game. He did throw the 2 picks but the entire rest of the game he was phenomenal and the main reason Michigan even had a chance to win it at the end
McCarthy meets Criteria 1. As a Michigan fan who has watched them closely, i say what people do not recognize is that Michigan did not have a stacked roster and had similar talent to many previous years. It looked stacked because McCarthy elevated the offense beyond what Cade McNamara and a decade of predecessors could do. Defense was elevated because it played super tight and smart too. Experience helped, too. But McCarthy did, in fact, elevate a good team to a great national championship team by doing what needed to be done when it needed to be done - without regard to statistics.
I live in Indiana and forgot we had a WNBA team.
Thank you for fixing the volume
I didn’t know the wnba had a draft
JJ McCarthy reeks of a player that’s gonna make Colin look really bad in the fall
His favorite player Tom Brady doesn’t fit either criteria he just laid out in terms of college qb play lol
He didn't say that his criteria were a hard and fast rule. He said they were the 2 that give the highest likelihood of success and the examples he gave were all recent QB hits in the league. Obviously you'll have a guy like Brady come in as a late rounder and maybe not win 7 super bowls but become a starter. Tony Romo, Kurt Warner, you'll get guys like that. Clear recent example is Brock Purdy.
Just because he claims these 2 things are the highest likelihood indicators doesn't mean you can't succeed without them, and conversely they don't guarantee a guy to succeed.
Clark is trending right now because people are followers and social media now dictates popularity. It's a moment and not a movement and people have to stop being disingenuous, Clark appeals to Middle America because she's white girl with a flashy Steph Curry type game that played in the Midwest. There's been girls that won multiple championships and PoY awards(Black & White) but they where at coastal powerhouses. Clark is the girl next door that America loves.
People love it when underdogs actually achieve, and those Iowa teams have. Her not going to a known powerhouse was the best thing for the sport, in hindsight. It has nothing to do with race. She can flat out play and she plays in a far more impactful way than any other player.
@@TenaciousStudent Iowa is still a Power 5 school, it's not like it's the Wellesley basketball team. South Carolina was not a top program for women's basketball until Staley got there and it took time for it to develop and they didn't get the attention that Clark got. The March Madness has an underdog story every year and it's never this much attention. South Carolina won and they got covered like an after thought, how does that help women's college basketball?!?! Let's see if JuJu Watkins gets the same coverage next year.
@@williamphillips3035 You nailed it.
@@williamphillips3035 Iowa may be a power 5 program, but the rosters are far from equal. It would be like comparing Iowa men's football to Alabama, in terms of rosters. South Carolina has the unquestioned best roster in the sport. They are an after thought because the majority of people don't find them interesting. Caitlin drives the ratings, therefore the coverage follows. Iowa vs Nebraska in the B1G championship game played at 11 am the morning after clocks change for day light savings time and had over one million more viewers than SC and LSU had in the SEC championship game played in the afternoon.
Giving kudos to SC is like giving it to the Yankees of old when they win. Congrats, you won by having way more talent than everyone else. You did what was expected and it really isn't that impressive. Roster hoarding talent is very bad for the sport, actually. Viewership sucked when UConn had their dynasty for that reason.
JuJu likely won't get the same coverage. Why? It isn't the same circumstances. They will have an elite roster, hardly underdogs. JuJu doesn't have the flashy deep range 3's or elite passing. Her game is good, but it isn't exciting to casual viewers. The coverage is all based on casual viewership.
@@TenaciousStudent stop the 🧢...who's to say who does and doesn't have an "elite" roster when people barely know who the girls on these teams. Iowa had 2 players drafted in the WNBA draft the other day so clearly they had some talent. Just like I said, stop being disingenuous with why people liked women's college basketball and you clearly made my point because I said Middle America was excited to see themselves in a white girl with a flashy game dominating in a sport...and that's OK. I said it was a moment and not a movement. JuJu is an amazing player with NBA players in awe of her game and the things she can do on the court as an 18 year old.
Trevor Lawerence has no business on this list lol.
Agree. I've never been a fan of his as a QB. He did put up some monster numbers at Clemson, but those were on stacked teams against mostly weak ACC competition. He doesn't have that good touch in tight windows that the best QBs have, and it shows now that he's in the NFL and can't rely on dominant talent around him.
Any team that drafts JJ in round one will look moronic halfway through the season!😂
Insane that Purdy isn’t a “hit qb”
...Although I think he meant 1st rounders.
@@ikiruyamamoto1050if that’s what he meant it’s a pretty big oversight to include Dak and Jalen who weren’t first rounders
Ive never watched a WNBA draft. I had no odea when it was or if they even had one. I watched the first pick as if it were the NBA or NFL draft. Caitlin made me watch a full womens basketball game. Shes exciting to watch. Ive never watched any other womens player for an entire game unless she was playing against Caitlin
It's real simple people who follow sports and know sports are not stupid. They understand she is a unicorn. They want to see her dominate this league because they know it's gonna happen. She just has that IT factor and you can tell it in comparison to any other player.
Most people are stupid.
Well Her it FACTOR is mostly to due with almost everything outside of her Talent. So just imagine what would happen it she lives up to everything that actually is based on her Talent.
In all fairness, JJ McCarthy didn't play past the 3rd quarter in most of the games Michigan played....
And Michigan was so stacked last year, that he really didn't even need to pass the ball.
Heck, they even beat Penn St.(an undefeated team at the time)(on the road), without even throwing the ball once in the 2cd half.
However, in most years, JJ McCarthy would be returning to Michigan for another year of polish & seasoning.
Loved it!!!!
JJ didn’t play much in the second half and they were always ahead how much did you expect him to throw ??????
He didn't mention Brock purdy on the list.....
Best Video ever thanks
I could've swore that I read a headline saying Goff got traded to the Commanders. Now I can't find it
Can’t wait to not watch the wnba ever
I can't wait for the WNBA this season. That's a sentence I have never uttered before in my life.
So Purdue isn’t included?
Caitlyn Clark has done for women’s basketball what Tiger Woods did to professional golf. Both Drew minorities of the profession to consume the profession. It’s that simple. They moved the needle
A bit presumptive at this point. No one will want ch those WNBA games after the first season
@@matthewperry2767 Now that’s presumptive. I would argue a chunk of the 40M young U.S. female causation will tune in to watch Caitlyn
@@duganred sure they will
@@matthewperry2767 I know
first time watching WNBA draft too...took awhile to realize there aren't 30 teams.
What did he say @
4:07
"Ham-&-Egger". Think opening act, average Joe, nothing special, etc. It's a phrase.
How are you supposed to have crazy numbers when you get the lead and your coach runs it the rest of the game?
Hamma-WHAT?!?!
LOL Tua not on the list 😂 😂
Colin - not saying you’re wrong about JJ, but how many QBs in the last decade would have met 1 of your 2 criteria did NOT become franchise guys?
- Tebow
- Manzel
- Marriota
Come to mind with many more for sure.
Again - not defending JJ, and maybe it’s just a disqualification stat, but would love to see a follow up on how many would have qualified that did not pan out.
For context in JJ case, the new playclock rule changed gave each team around 1.5 less offensive possessions per game. Michigan was up to two with how much they run the ball. JJ also didnt play much of the 4th if at all in the first 8 games because they dominated the competition and had the best defense. There running back also had like 25 running touchdowns this year. I get both sides but objectively JJ talent is there.
Why is Brock Purdy not on this list? He's a hit especially for his draft position
SMH... it seems everyone except 49ers fans know Brock turns back into a pumpkin this season. Just call him Cinderfella 😅 😂
Scathing
After watching what y’all said about Purdy coming out of college I’m nit listening to a word yall say about nfl draft prospects 😂
4:06 EXCUSE ME????
I was thinking the same thing
I’ve replayed it 10 times and still don’t understand what he said 😅
i’m still tryna figure out what he said 😂😂💀💀💀
4:06 come again Colin 🫨
Levis gonna be on that list
Jordan Love as a franchise QB is at that point quite bold. I would def not consider Prescott an Goff in the same category as the other QBs. Even Lawrence is boarderline to the others at the moment.
I know all the top picks because of her. Will watch next year because of SC.
What about Sean Lee?!? He didn’t get you to a tv?
It’s relatability
JJ is a diamond in the rough. Young man has some nice tools buts needs some development. He is a 2 year starter at Michigan and whoever drafts him must be patient. He still needs to improve on anticipatory theows and reading defenses. Would i draft him top 10 absolutely not, but i would definitely trade back into the first round to draft him in the bottom half of the first round. Why not take a chance on him like Baltimore did with Lamar Jackson.
What did he say about the 1st time he saw JJ?
JJ would be best served going in the 2nd/3rd round. He's going to be a 1st round pick b/c teams always reach for QBs, but he's not a 1st round talent. Look at what happened to Kenny Pickett and Mitch Trubisky when you reach. I like JJ a lot. Seems like a really good guy, and has pretty good physical attributes. But for his own sake, it would be best for him to sit and learn a couple years in a no-pressure situation for him to have any chance to develop into being decent. As a 1st rounder, he's going to be expected to play and perform soon, and I don't think it's going to work out well for him. I hope I'm wrong because I like the guy.
Clark isn’t bashful on the court and balls. I kinda wish Reese embraced the rivalry even into the WNBA.
She's straight , white, and humble. Not hard for average people to get behind.
Penix > McCarthy barring injuries. And I like McCarthy to be solid, not spectacular.
Horrendous take. When Penix faced a legit defense for the first time in Michigan, he didn't scare me at all.
@@mgoboski horrendous take would be over analyzing the performance versus Michigan… There is a concept in scouting circles that goes advising against putting too much weight into one game, both good and bad.
Horrendous would be to over analyze that game. The way I see it, if you’re a Michael, Penix, Jr., you were going up against an NFL defensive coordinator, an NFL head coach, running NFL schemes that they likely did not show on film, saving it for the championship game because that’s how NFL schemes operate, a team with seven NFL athletes on defense, while you have Rome, a good #2 to receiver and college _everything else._ schemes, play collars, coaching style, talent around you, etc.… Yeah, you are most likely going to struggle if it’s your first time going up against it.
But here's another way to look at it: if people want to knock him for his game against Michigan, I would argue this: so essentially, what you are saying is that you would throw him away based on his very first NFL start, since basically, he was playing against in NFL level defense in college, you're not gonna let him adapt and give him time, you would just throw him away? That's a faulty analysis.
@@romain8390 Penix had 3 NFL receivers and the Joe Moore award winning O-line for best in the nation. He has has the prettiest deep ball touch I have ever seen and is just good every else. McCarthy is better in the short and mid range.
@@mgoboski that’s good that JJ McCarthy is very good in the short and mid range… the way I heard Albert Breer talk about it, is that NFL coaches, see Michael Penix, Junior as a “three-point shooter“, who is great, throwing with timing and especially anticipation. when you are great at throwing the deep ball, the deep corner routes, the deep over routes, etc., they feel more confident of the ability for that to translate to the league. They feel that they can teach Michael Penix to throw short, to throw, intermediate, etc.
To me, it was like a baseball analogy “you can teach the home run hitter how to hit singles, but you can’t teach the singles hitter how to hit home runs”, and that is how the NFL sees Michael Penix, Junior, that’s how I see him as well. He is better than McCarthy to me, even though I believe McCarthy will be very good, 12-15 range.
@@romain8390 for the record, I would take Bo Nix over Penix. I would also take Caleb and Daniels over McCarthy. This isn't a Michigan fan boy thing. McCarthy is a risk because he barely turned 21 while these other dudes are 23-24, like Penix. Penix is just all smoke imo. The NFL will eat his frail body alive.
Another dig on Goff. Goff is the 2nd best QB in the NFL. Just check the stats people. JJ McCarthy is one of the best in the draft. Michigan had a great Oline and a Phenomenal RB in Corum. He didn't have to throw it a lot.
Well for his sake I hope he goes to a team with a stacked line and phenomenal RB
Will 100% watch her games. 1st ever WNBA game. I bet she breaks 3 point record 1st year.
Short Shorts are the only way Men will start tuning into the WNBA...
Did you see the #2 pick ? Wow.
McCarthy is a round 3 pick at best.
Since when is the WNBA more interesting than the MLB? Colin was once my favorite show to watch. He has lost his touch. What happened?
I mean he isnt wrong, for the casual sport fan, NFL, NBA ...
Fans are more hyped by Caitlyn than MLB not saying that more people will watch WNBA but the hype behind her is real
Neither are interesting or popular, he’s just trying to hop on the Caitlyn Clark hypebeast train. Little does he know that died a week ago lol
@@Jasoncj099he is wrong fella.
@@evanwashturn, right on!!
@@Blacattacsquadronhe's not tho if he was baseball would be talked about more than CC and how well the WNBA should be next year
McCarthy would have put up crazy numbers if his defense wasn't so insanely dominant. He rarely played in 4th quarters and was strictly on handoff duty by halftime. They didn't need him to throw all over the place once they were up by 20, but if the defense was as bad as 2019 LSU or Lamar's Louisville, best believe he would have. His efficiency is off the charts and I'd argue he absolutely elevated Michigan on 3rd downs. He's by far the best prospect in 3 years on 3rd & 5 and longer.
That defense wasn't insanely dominant. Saban intentionally threw that title game. He got paid big time for that.
that last sentence was just ridiculous
@@swae4KT Its not an opinion. He has the highest conversion rate of 3rd down & 5 and longer of any QB prospect since 2021.
Garbage take
I think he’s good, he can make all the throws because he has a very nice arm, and he has athleticism for sure, but that doesn’t mean he’s an experienced passer enough to elevate a roster… If you trade him in Michael Penix Junior for the 2023 season, Michigan still easily wins the national championship, and I don’t think JJ McCarthy would’ve elevated that Washington roster to 10 games
So if Michigan ran up the score in the 4th quarter and let JJ get the tds instead of corum all year you’d be fine with it?
so nix and penix and daniels should be hits ? (caleb, maye, didn't elevate their teams).
JJ performed every single time they needed him too. Klatt is right on this and you need to listen to him, not these other guys.
Pats don’t have one skill position player that would see the field for the Vikings.
Could report. I guess you could say she has a real magnetic personality. 😂
Michigan Was Stacked Defensively Not Offensively
And this is why it will be the Vikings that take JJ. They might even go for bonus points & trade up to get him, even though he's a poor choice at #11. He is the next Ponder. An obvious college player, who never had a game where he looked like a pro.
I have given up all hope of the Vikings ever winning a Super Bowl.
What did all you guys say about Brady same thing.
Mmm, JJ was never asked to do that much? 🤔. Oh wait, down by 7 with 4 mins to play on the biggest stage in the Rose Bowl, and he literally carried Michigan with passes to 3 star receivers, made critical runs, and had a TD pass to send it to OT against mighty Saban and Alabama. Oh yeah, and made great throws in the natty game and won a natty. Ridiculous take by Colin on JJ. The dude is a winner
Who is the "stacked roster"? What high level future nfl star is on the team???
I thought Colin was a big Sean Payton guy so if McCarthy gets a good OFFENSIVE coach, he could be successful. I'd rather get Sean than one of these other coaches. McCathy's accuracy went up every year and he had few INT's.
The issue with Colins criteria is that it would have predicted guys like Trey Lance, Dwayne Haskins, Justin Fields and Zach Wilson would have been guaranteed franchise hits. Because they elevated their rosters, right?
Nobody cares about women's sports. The media needs to quit pretending people care about this lady.
Jj McCarthy is going to get a GM and maybe a coach FIRED if he actually goes round 1 and I will be everything I own on that 😂
78k to go pro? No thanks. I would’ve taken the 5 million from Ice Cube.
Cube’s league is a joke and will probably be bankrupt in a year or two and not be able to pay her that money anyway.
JJ wasn’t in a qb friendly offense.. when Michigan threw the ball the whole stadium knew they were gona throw it.. 3rd n long etc
JJ will go first round, people are hung up on the style of offense he ran and not what he was asked to do in said offense. And lets be honest with each other no one knows really if these young men are going to work its a educated guess at best and most times we get it wrong.
That criteria isn’t entirely accurate, Max Duggan took TCU to the natty and look at him now
That wasn't his argument
@@Trill_Tour yes it was, he said something along the lines of “qbs that elevate programs to heights that aren’t usual for that program”. Taking TCU certainly qualifies as that, heck even Desmond Ridder won a bunch of games at Cincinnati in college and elevated them and he’s not any good in the NFL
I believe the 12 he listed were all first round selections. He wasn't applying his logic to every quarterback selected in the last 10 years. I had to do a doable take too, when i didn't see purdy listed.
Its based on first round picks. Some guys which are succesfull college QBs just lack the Tools for the NFL. Last seasons Florida State QB for example isnt an first round prospect clearly.
@@williamwhite5799 his criteria is a pre-draft criteria, meaning by his standards duggan would’ve been a first rounder. You’re looking at it in the wrong order of events
i just hope the Giants take him
It's not just that the NFL gives you the TIMES they are on the air
They are on free Network TV so everyone can watch them including a poor person like me
That's one of the reasons Caitlin Clark is so popular
All you had to do is turn the TV on so she's part of the entire culture not the segregated middle-class rich people only TV that Major League Baseball in the NBA are and because of it at our large family gatherings we only talked about the NFL because the NBA in Major League Baseball are no longer part of our culture
Cowherd starts at a conclusion and then tries to work logic in to make it sound good. He's never liked JJ McCarthy and it's taken until now to figure out a smokescreen of "logic" as to why he doesn't. The issue here is that McCarthy checked all the boxes Cowherds had for "what makes a good QB draft prospect" so he's had to invent new boxes to explain why McCarthy doesn't count.
Does anyone remember "spindly"? Because McCarthy actually checks Colin's size requirement of "over 6'2", 210-220 pounds" (JJ's 6'3" 219 pounds), so Colin tried to invent a new reason why this didn't count- he's spindly (WTF!?).
That girl is crazy.... She could of went overseas and made millions instead of Indiana for $100k.... 😂😂
Not only McCarthy, but following those criteria, Jaylen Daniels is a potential bust too.
Clark is great for WNBA and female basketball in general. But if people are starting to consider Clark to be able to play in the NBA the conversation is over.
I don't know anybody saying that. Lol. You're worrying about something that isn't there.
He can’t stop talking about JJ
He is a Michigan and Harbaugh fan boy
Caitlin Clark went viral because of her ability and propensity to nail the the 3 point shot, often from well behind the line. If you take that away, she would not be viral.
I still didn't watch the wnba draft and nobody still going to watch the wnba because if the women not showing up to support neither will the men.
Im not overly impressed with McCarthy 21 touchdowns ,its a given great defense by the wolverines tho. I think you have to look at the intangibles warriors like burrow ,hurts , Stroud other have that indelible character of greatness .
Burrow and stroud were elite qb prospects bruh😭 hurts is the guy who you had to dig deeper and even then he had to go to the perfect situation to achieve success
May be the worst JJ take I have seen someone do
Am I the only one who had to go back to see if he said the N word?
It’s just the WNBA people! Caitlin will be fine, she has more talent than these same ladies who couldn’t sell tickets in prior seasons. Case in point, we watched the draft for the 1st time in WNBA history lol
Way too many people downgrade winning QB’s who don’t throw the ball a lot. They want stat stuffers in college. Someone tell me this. Why didn’t Drake Maye win more games than Sam Howell did with the same team? Don’t nfl teams like to win? Isn’t that why they are in existence? Who knows who Archie Manning is? Oh yeah. Dad to Peyton and Eli who won Super Bowls.
Thank You, I'm a Michigan Alum and I don't believe he's a 1st, 2nd or 3rd Round Pick. I appreciate him helping my school win a National Championship, but he's Not an exceptional talent and absolutely Not a 1st Round Pick!
It's baffling how delusional even NFL scouts, GM's, etc. can be. McCarthy is NOT an NFL quarterback.
You did not say “ham and egger, this guy is ok.” When the accusations came out against Michigan in 2023, one of your primary defenses of Michigan and Harbaugh was “now he finally has a 1st round quarterback to run his offense and we all know how good Harbaugh is with a top tier qb.” You flip flop your opinions on the same issue over short periods of time based on how they serve the current narrative.
She’s popular because she is fun to watch. Plain and simple
Louisville “an okay program “. Disrespectful.
Louisville is in the ACC and is not winning the ACC championship
Colin Lamar Jackson want age well in the NFL
Trading up in the draft for a kid that averages 18 passes a game is a fireable offense full stop. There is nothing on tape that says he’s anything better than a day 2 or 3 pick. His biggest highlight is an int against OSU
😂 terrible take
@@PAKKCB4 good job refuting it pal 👍
Yah, no reason to try to reason with an obvious OSU.
@@PAKKCB4 sorry I don’t believe in big 10 josh Rosen but have fun with that dumpster fire man 👍
Enough of the Caitlyn Clark stuff my goodness. It’s so disingenuous.
Entirely fabricated by the media. No one actually cares.
Exactly. Nobody cares about this lady or women's sports.
Angel Reese waving her hands in Caitlin Clark face by beating her last year for the championship got you all watching, because you all were mad and wanted revenge, you got it but not for a championship 😮. South Carolina went 38-0 with a revenge win and they are not talked about 😮.
WNBA, snooze....dont care