I’m 40, have been reading and studying the Bible in English and Spanish since I was five, have read the Bible well over 30 times, can very easily recognize a misquoted verse or detail, and am deeply convicted that I have barely begun to scratch the surface of understanding and applying God’s word in my life. I have read many commentaries, and the writings of many of those considered the “fathers” and great theologians. I find that all the reading of extra-biblical books can often be encouraging, but for most Christians, it is predominantly a distraction from simply engaging God’s written word, and leads to them blaming others when they fail in any way regarding faith and living in Christ. It is important for us to encourage one another to engage God’s word, far above all other material we take in, everyday.
Best comment I’ve ever seen on a topic like this! So true the simplicity of the the gospel is so beautiful! Made difficult by so many theological differences! Context is important but, turning people away from the saving Grace which is one of the purposes of the Holy Spirit to reveal truth of Gods word to us. God bless you sir for your dedication!
@@davidmuth4571 I grew up reading the NKJV, KJV, and NIV in English and the RV in Spanish. Today, 30 years later, I still read these versions but now include the ESV, NASB, NLT, CSV NRSV, and other modern English and Spanish versions.
For me, I find that Calvinists are so vicious in their opinions, they act like you are their enemy if you think different...that is what hurts me the most.
You should explore cessationism. There you will find the building blocks to blasphemy. John Calvin played a primary role in the torture and execution of 58 innocent people in Geneva in only 5 years. During that time, John Calvin plotted for several years to murder a man named Michael Servetus which he did. He also outlawed all musical instruments, art, and anything visual that glorifies Jesus Christ. John Calvin was buried in an unmarked grave at an unknown location and received the burial of a murderer. This is who founded Calvinism. Origins have meaning.
God is not an argument. God is a joy, a liberation, a more abundant life. A more beautiful life. A more graceful life. Don't get stuck in the pride of the intellect. God transcends the intellect. By their fruits, ye shall know them. And the fruit of the Holy Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
I was saved in a church that would be considered "Armenian ". After about 5 years or so of reading the Bible, delving into fundamental theology, reading books by scholarly men, I began to explore Calvanism. I began to lean toward Calvanism somewhat, and shared this with several people in the church I attended. My pastor sat down with me and asked if I had explored the TULIP. He suggested I read up on the 5 points of Calvanism, and see what I thought. I told him that I would like to read the 5 points as presented by a scholarly Calvanist, so that I would not be influenced by other opinions. He suggested that that was a good plan and I began my study. After several months of study, I approached my pastor and said, WOW, I don't believe ANY of the 5 points. Incidentally, I still don't. However, I have several good Calvanist friends that love the Lord. I told them that they could believe our Sovereign God created them to go to heaven and forced His Grace upon them, and I will believe that our Sovereign God created me as a free moral agent, offered me His Grace as a free gift, and I willingly accepted it.❤❤
Wouldn’t you say that G-d forced you to exist? However you may call it, G-d has “forced” His will onto his creation several times throughout scripture. And if He “forces” His Grace onto His elect, then Hallelujah, because I sure wouldn’t have been able to believe in Him otherwise.
@@ggsheet I think Calvanist go way to far with their idea of "total depravity". There is no question that before we get saved, we are spiritually dead. But, remember, when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, they died spiritually as well. And yet, they recognized their nakedness, tried to rectify the problem with fig leaves (works of self-righteousness) hid because of shame when God called them out. They were convicted when He rebuked them, and they willingly received and wore the Animal skins that God provided for them (a type of His blood sacrifice). So, they weren't in some zombie state after the fall. They were aware, repentant, and willing to receive.
Keep studying the Bible because TULIP is Biblical and backed by God's word the Bible. Once you understand the definition of man's total depravity the other points line up perfectly.
Great reminder to not listen to these “shepherds” based on categories like denomination or theology but listen by the Spirit. Which requires having the Spirit of God ourselves. Thanks for the reminder!!!
Tozer sounds and reads like a tough, stoic Calvinist, but he has a deep heart of love for people. Tozer positively quotes many of the old Catholic saints without apology. Remember, he ministered in Chicago in a tough environment. He wasn't merely cerebral. He was evangelizing in the inner city.
As a believer for over 30 years I have never put myself a in any religious name Calvinist Arminian Fundamentalist Charismatic etc. It just has never been on my radar
Nevertheless, actual Christians know what the real gospel is and what the fake gospels are. The fact is, you have yet to actually become a Christian, this is why these things have not been on your radar, and why you do not know what the real gospel is and what it is not.
@@Hambone3773 ,...What is true is that what the church calls "Calvinism" is the one and only gospel of the Bible. It is the opposite of all other denominations. If anyone does not understand that if any denomination does not understand and hold with what Calvin understood, they are not a Christian and have another gospel. This has to be 100% on evey Christians radar.
@@Hambone3773 ,...Paul with 100% certainty understood what Calvin understood. There is only one real gospel and all the apostles as well as Calvin understood it. You sadly do not, and have another gospel, the false manmade gospel of the accursed. Repent.
Your comment that you wouldn't have read Tozer if you knew he wasn't a Calvinist really reveals a major issue with a lot of people. They believe a systematic, rather than the gospel. Systematics can be helpful in explaining Biblical concepts, but they can easily turn into idols.
You are completely blind, lost, and deceived. Tozer is not a Christian nor is anyone that thinks he is. "Calvinism" is the actual gospel of the Bible. Your manmade freewill gospel is a 100% fraud. It is the manmade gospel of the accursed and of the spiritually dead and blind as all those snared into it clearly show. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!
Since Dr. Flowers is connected with a seminary, it may be worthwhile to point out that neither Tozer nor Lloyd-Jones had any formal theological training. Is there something missing in the ivory towers of academia?
It seems to me that often times when those who hold tightly to a flawed position will not openly denounce a person of high regard and universal respect (A.W. Tozer, C.W Lewis), they are not being intellectually honest. That was a red flag to me regarding Calvinism.
I'm aware of public calvanists who call out the uncalcanist beliefs of Lewis and Tozer. They don't condemn them, of course, because calvanist beliefs aren't inherently what saves a person, but they do disagree with those aspects.
Great video! I'm in a Calvinist community group as a Universalist (reconciliationist), but I'm CONSTANTLY telling these guys to read something other than MacArthur or Piper or White. They know I'm a former Calvinist and left it after intense study. Glad you explored other sides of theology!
Surely the starting point must be the man Calvin himself. How can anyone accept the teachings of a man who had those who opposed him doctrinally brutally killed?
@@fakesummer3942 ,....Correct, what the lost call Calvinism is simply the actual truth of the Bible that these people have no understanding of. The truth of Gods word has always existed.
BW,....What you have just stated is so absolutely ignorant that it explains why you have been snared into the Godless worlds false freewill gospel and fake christianity. First off, did you personally see Calvin kill anyone? Or are you just parroting what you have been told by men? Second, please read the old testament and see how many God had killed for being opposed to him and his laws and commands. Third, Jesus was/is God, so why would you accept the teachings of Jesus as it was him who had millions killed for being opposed to him. Fourth, the fact is, it is you and all those who fill all the 100% apostate churches are those who oppose God, and God is going to kill you all on the last day. Your gospel is false, your christianity is fake, and you are completely steeped in darkness and deception. Repent!
@lancesteinke3732 He would get up in his 80s or 90s at around 2 or 3 am and pray 2 hours. Ravenhill was essentially a Pentecostal (he was a Samuel Chadwick spiritual descendant, who was himself William Booth acquaintance if I'm not mistaken) when the English Methodists were essentially Pentecostals. If you read The Way To Pentecost by Chadwick, you'll see much in common with modern Pentecostalism, ironically. That was Ravenhill's stock. Those folks prayed and prayed as if their life depended on it.
Calvinist would say only some are elect and the others God passes over and leaves in their sin yet the Calvinist would get in the pulpit and call all to believe the gospel! A seemingly contradiction. I’m glad I’m no longer grid locked in Calvin’s system! Period.
Salvation comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The offer of salvation by Calvinists to sinners is absolutely sincere, Spirit inspired and a genuine plea. He that hath an ear, let him hear.
@@justintillett He that wins souls is wise. Has a Calvinist ever won a soul like the Bible says us Christians are to do? They make Atheists faster the the Catholic Pope. Your Reformed catechism classes have done their supernatural magic on you. It replaced the ability to think for yourself and replaced it with the mind of the Hive. Truth in Love
You mean he never learned or understood the actual truth and true gospel of the Bible. What the lost refer to as Calvinism is the actual gospel of the Bible. Your freewill gospel is a fraud and will only put you into the lake of fire. Repent!
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 So do you believe that Calvinism is a salvific position? If so it seems that the LORD has fooled me into believing in him, yet barring me from Heaven due to my non-calvinistic stance.
@@-7n ,....Yes, absolutely, What the lost refer to as "Calvinism" that is in reality just the actual gospel and truth of the Bible. Anything other than this is another gospel. The saved do not, not understand the Bibles gospel. It is only the lost who do not understand it due to them being spiritually dead and blind exactly as they deny in fact proving the truth of "Calvinism". I guess we can say that God has fooled you in that the truth of Gods word is hid from you and you are only able to believe lies and deceptions. Matthew Ch. 13, 10, "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11, He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12, For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13, Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14, And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15, For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16, But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:" 2 Corinthians 4:3 KJV
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 you are far from the truth. Calvinism is a doctrine of devils. John 3:16 and 2 Timothy 2:4 destroy Calvinism in just 2 verses. But really the whole bible is against those Satanic doctrines. Maybe stop reading its literature and just read the bible. Watch the UA-cam channel: Beyond the Fundamentals for help.
I disagree and know many humble, loving believers who hold to Calvinism, and I know many humble loving Arminians. I also know many Arminians who have made soteriology such a hot button issues that they hold their own position with pride, arrogance, and intellectual superiority. The important thing is the gospel.
@@mikehouston9455 unfortunately, I've expected arrogance, pride, and a "I'm more theologically sound than you attitude" and I've heard a podcast of ex Calvinist talking about this as well. They just thought they were smarter. I wrestle with pride! So I'm not saying they're inherently prideful, But as a dominating characteristic of a doctrine, I've seen these things as being prevalent when asserting these beliefs. Not that that's their prevailing character, to be clear.
The problem isn't Calvinism or Arminianism. The problem is the attitude with which people hold to these positions. And that is evidenced by the commenters below with phrases like, "Calvinism is a non starter in the world of truth," and Tozer "being one of the good ones" (meaning a non-Calvinist), and Calvinists "not being intellectually honest." And if you were to go to a youtube video that talked about the errors of Arminianism, you would find similar negative comments. Yes, I lean towards one of these positions, but I also greatly respect people who hold to both of these positions, and I refuse to speak ill of a brother or sister in Christ or a position that can be supported by scripture - and both positions can depending on how you interpret certain passages. We don't all agree on young earth/old earth creationism nor do we all agree regarding our views of eschatology, but neither do we chose to tear each other down over our positions regarding those issues. End of the day, I like the way that I once heard it explained as, "God chooses people for salvation. Man has a responsibility to respond. Somehow those two work together. I can't explain it, and neither can you." But we in Christianity really shoot ourselves in the foot when we choose to defame each other rather than stay focused on the gospel.
Exactly! I was surprised and disappointed that this video was vague and played like a fictional novel when it comes to specifically define what Tozer wrote that was the catalyst to doubting The Doctrines of Grace. Further, what did he read and from what source that continued his doubts. Systematically, he could just list bullet points and let the viewer investigate. I find that would have been more helpful than just an overall statements that he left The Doctrines of Grace.
As R C Sproul has mentioned, and you also referred to, it is good to know, research and grasp both sides of the issues. R C indicated that he would read books by aetheists to ascertain their perspective to get insight of the issue. With this in mind and for the benefit of everyone who also would like to know, instead of telllng about your decision to depart from The Doctrines of Grace because of something you read from Tozer and your further investigations, systematically please list exactly what you read and by whom, in chronological order. This will prove to be much more helpful for any who is curious to know. I would enjoy the adventure and the mystery of the intrigue! Blessings
With a Tozer jump start, you avoid the towing charge incurred when departing from Calvinism, and afterwards can celebrate A.W. with some A&W Root Beer, perhaps with a sugar-free option for those counting calories.
@@annakimborahpa (Romans 9:13) Jacob have I loved but Esaw have I hated ☝️Their both descendants of esaw as are all caucasians - obviously their both in the pit of hell - have a seat n stop lyin
@@annakimborahpa Caucasians biblical God given ethnicity and written judgement makes it obvious that "job 42:6 doesn't apply to them - note the phrases "no repentance" written long after the resurrection - and "not 1 remaining" a future prophecy 👇 ( Hebrews 12:16-17 kjv) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as E S. A U when he would have inherited the blessing, he was REJECTED: for he found NO PLACE OF "REPENTANCE" (Malachi 1:2-4) yet I loved Jacob, And I hated E. S. A. U and they shall call THEM, The border of "WICKEDNESS" and, THE PEOPLE against whom the Lord hath indignation FOREVER (Psalm 11:5-6) The Lord trieth the righteous: but the "WICKED" and him that loveth violence his soul hateth Upon the WICKED he shall rain "FIRE" and "BRIMSTONE" this shall be the portion of their cup (Obadiah 1:18) And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of E. S. A. U for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall NOT BE ANY REMAINING of the house of E. S. A. U. for the LORD hath spoken it THUS SAYETH THE LORD
I think if you like CS Lewis you'd like George Macdonald, he was Lewis's favorite theologian and he said he never wrote a book in which he didn't quote Macdonald. He was brought up a calvinist and grew up to be a staunch anti calvinist. He actually said he cried when he was a kid and he heard the doctrine of election first explained to him. I admit he had some opinions most Christians would consider heretical such as universalism, but hes still worth checking out, his sermons have been a major inspiration for me and I cannot recommend them enough, if your uncomfortable with his more controversial opinions they're mostly found in a series of books called Unspoken Sermons, he has more mainstream christian content in his books Hope of the Gospel and Miracles of our Lord. Be warned if you value lukewarmness and softness on sin, Macdonald is tougher on sin than any preacher I've ever heard.
Agreed this is concise and i do so appreciate your calling to speak out against a view of God that has been distorted through.... anyone who isn't intellectually honest enough to consider this makes God different at best.... from when they first believed ie.. born again gives me pause.. Galatians 1:10 NASB95 - For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ
I remember that message board of which you speak. I was not aware that Derek was no longer a believer. So sad. At any rate, that is a fascinating story. Thank you for sharing.
Dr. Flowers, A.W. Tozer is one of my favorite mentors, along with Dr. Derek Prince and Watchman Nee. I came across a book: Is GOD a Vindictive Bully? Reconciling Portrayals of GOD in the Old and New Testaments, Paul Copan. You may remember that I think that Calvinism is the worse heresy in the church. I will not back down from my opinion on that. I teaches " a different gospel " just as Roman Catholicism does. When any doctrine " touches" the CROSS of CHRIST, that's my " fighting ground. " I ask GOD to help me to have the right attitude toward leaders in Roman Catholicism and Calvinism, though. Anyway, I was looking up whether or not Copan is/was a Calvinist, and got side tracked and came across this article discussing an article by Chris Chapan - Finally Submitting To Calvinism This is what William Birch had to say ( 3-14-2013 ) " It ( Calvinism) is the hardest philosophy to swallow, so it must be the most GOD-glorifying theology on the market. " This one brief line summed up the entire article for me; it also articulated the experience of many, including my own. But adopting Calvinism not only made me feel more Biblical, more devoted as a " big GOD " theology advocate ( as I read recently on the Gospel Coalition blog ), I also felt intellectually superior to all non-Calvinists. Now That is a blog post I've been wanting to write, especially since R.C. Sproul, in his: Chosen By GOD, virtually admits the exact same notion - that Calvinists are intellectually superior. He even lined up the proponents of Calvinism and non-Calvinist ideology in an effort to prove his point. What he proved, in my opinion, is that even brilliant men can commit some of the worse theological errors imaginable." Well, I sure agree with that! Now, back to my research on Paul Copan. May GOD Bless you and your ministry, in CHRIST'S name, amen. 💐
I don’t think of myself as intellectually superior nor do I think Calvinists do in general. But what most all of them will say and agree upon (myself too) is that they don’t necessarily “like” all the implications. I’d rather God save everyone and have mercy on everyone. I don’t want anyone to perish or to experience hell! But this is not what the Bible teaches. In much of the same way, I’d love it if people could will themselves to repent and turn from their evil of their own free will. And that the salvation process was more of a cooperative or symbiotic relationship between God and his creatures. But I don’t think this is what the Bible is teaching (at least pre-regeneration, I do think there is a symbiosis in sanctification) and so I can’t buy into it. Does this make me a heretic or submissive to what I believe God revealed in scripture?
" I don’t want anyone to perish or to experience hell! But this is not what the Bible teaches." God doesn't either. The Bible teaches that too. "In much of the same way, I’d love it if people could will themselves to repent and turn from their evil of their own free will." So why did John the Baptist preach repentance if it's something that nobody can do? Why did God through the prophets plead with Israel and Judah to repent if it's impossible? "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and *ye would not!* " We can repent. What we can't do is match God-level standards of righteousness. For that we have to put our faith in Christ.
@@gregmahler9506 You absolutely are believing heresy. You are believing a " false gospel " " another JESUS " another example of " traditions of men " - such as found in Roman Catholicism ( Greek Orthodox, etc.), Judaism and the major cult of Islam. EVERY cult has a " different JESUS " which naturally promotes a " different gospel " ( or not one at all in Islam - JESUS was just a prophet ). The finger print of " doctrines of demons" ALWAYS diminishes CHRIST, and therefore the CROSS, and therefore the SALVATION OF MANKIND. Which makes perfect sense, if you were Satan. Reformation Theology is Not in Scripture. One has to see Scripture THROUGH the Calvinist grid to come up with Calvinism. It was Not taught in the early church. The seeds of this blaspheme came in with AUGUSTINE, over 300 years after the church began in Jerusalem. You will Not find Calvinism in any of the Orthodox Churches, because they had no Augustine. It's that simple. Further more, the false doctrine of cessationism is the bosom buddy of this heresy. So you not only have a " different JESUS " and a " different gospel " you have a POWERLESS church. Another thing that makes perfect sense, if you were a heresy spinner, such as Satan. He ALWAYS mixes his heresies with enough truth to slip them in the back door. I sometimes use this analogy: Say there was a nice man, who would never harm anyone knowingly. This kind man had a fatal very contagious disease, but did not know it. Does his lack of knowledge nullify the effects of the disease? No, it does not. That's what Calvinism is like. I am thinking about how nice everyone thinks John Piper is. He may be nice. He may have good intentions, but he carries the disease of Calvinism, and what a nice carrier. A great success story, as heresies go - because he's SO nice. Books: The Foundation of Augustinian Calvinism, Dr. Ken Wilson Calvinism: A Biblical And Theological Critique, Dr. David L. Allen and Dr. Steve W. Lemke Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation, 3rd Edition Dr. Hutson Smelly The Other Side of Calvinism, Lawrence Vance Calvinism: None Dare Call It Heresy: The Life and Teachings of John Calvin, Dr. Bob Kirkland Calvinism and The Problem of Hell and Damnation, Ronnie Rodgers Why I Am Not a Calvinist, Dr. Jerry Walls and Dr. Joseph R. Donagall What Love Is This? Calvinism's Misrepresention of GOD, Dave Hunt, 4th Edition Against Calvinism: Rescuing GOD'S Reputation from Radical Reformed Theology, Rodger Olson Does GOD Love Everyone? The Heart of What's Wrong with Calvinism, Dr. Jerry Walls Does GOD Love All or Some? Comparing Biblical Extensivism to Calvinism's Exclusivism, Ronnie W. Rodgers GOD'S Provision For All: A Defense of GOD'S Goodness, Dr. Leighton Flowers The Potter's Promise: A Biblical Defense of Traditional Soteriology, Dr. Leighton Flowers Mike Winger/UA-cam I pray that you will come out of this deception. In CHRIST'S name, amen 💐
@@gregmahler9506 Greg - to put it crudely - non-calvinist's often describe a sense of " smelling a Calvinist a mile away " because the general attitude, even though it may not be recognized, is one of disrespect and arrogance toward others who have different theological points of view. The saddest irony is that MacArthur, and others, mistakingly believe that THEY are the one's fighting off the heretics. It's amazing and very sad to watch.
@@gregmahler9506 Lastly, Calvinism is intuitively wrong. As it says in Scripture: " GOD placed eternity in man's heart." Not Some - but ALL. Calvinism forces people to have to go through illogical hoops and confounding philosophies, if they survive this process and come to accept it as true - deep down there is a Great Discomfort which is survivable is ignored or rationalized some how. LOVE is very rarely brought up in Reformation Theology, a clear sign that something is wrong. Simplex sigillum veri Simplicity is the sign of Truth
You just might want to read "The Knowledge of the Holy," by Tozer. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, who was a well-known Calvinist pastor, once met Tozer in person, and said afterwards, "Ever since I read a book by him I have felt that he is one of the very few great prophetic voices in the Church today, and in the modern world . . . . His books have whetted my appetite, but having heard him now actually in the flesh I see that even his books do not do him full justice" (Iain Murray's biography of Lloyd-Jones, vol. II, p. 285). What both Tozer and Lloyd-Jones had in common was an emphasis on experiential Christianity. The difference between them is that while Lloyd-Jones looked back to the Puritans, Tozer tended to look back to medieval mystics.
The Bible's power to transform the individual relies upon translation to the experiential. It must correlate to the human experience. To the degree one's theology moves away from the experiential it moves away from scripture.
For Calvinists and other cessationists, faith is all theory or an intellectual battle and never actually put into action in the real world. You end up with psychological tricks, dissociation, and delusion misinterpreted as answered prayers or reliance on God and it's not. It's all works of the flesh because they don't comprehend faith. These people don't even know how to pray in faith. They are so worldy in their understanding--their faith is the blind faith of the world and their hope is wishful thinking with implied doubt. And they sum up their fancy prayers with "if it is your will, God". That's not a prayer of faith--it's you don't know God's will for that situation then you literally cannot be praying in faith. If it is a situation where you don't know how or what to pray for then pray in the Spirit/in tongues as Paul instructs. There's been several times when my English prayers were not effectual for healing, and I became frustrated because I had the faith but it didn't work. So I humbled myself and the Spirit told me to trust Him to pray, so I prayed in faith in tongues trusting that the Holy Spirit would pray the right thing andnmyself or others were miraculously, instantly healed. I don't know how anyone who professes faith in Christ can't read the New Testament and not believe 100% that we are then supposed to go out and do what it says! It's through the lies of the devil perpetuated by faithless theologians and demonic doctrines that the power of Christ in the church has been so severely neutered. We are the workers of the Harvest. We are the frontline soldiers for the Kingdom of Heaven bringing Heaven to earth. Faith requires accommodating action. You have to trust in God's promises to the point that you act on them rather than on your natural understanding. When you do--you WILL see miracles, and you will be so humbled to know it was God doing it and not of yourself. I beg you all--just trust God for all His promises!!!!!
Even though making an appeal to mystery doesn't act as a sufficient argument against Calvinism on its own, I still feel it's appropriate to acknowledge that there is still a mystery there concerning predestination/election none the less. For some reason, it almost feels prideful to completely disregard an element of mystery, simply because we are finite beings trying to comprehend an infinite God. I know Paul describes the fact of the church is the "bride of Christ" as being a profound mystery (probably for the best not to attempt to solve that one). It's therefore reasonable to suppose that there are still further mysteries concerning doctrine that yet remain mysterious to us.
Leighton, read Hermann Bavink's "Reformed Dogmatics. Vol. 4" pg. 262 where he admits that the ancient Greek exposition of Romans 7, to which the Reformed tradition of his day agrees, speak of an unregenerate man rather than the struggle in progressive sanctification. Banvinck agrees with Wernle's statement that, "Paulinism is rendered useless to us." In other words, he admits that Reformed Dogmatics cannot be reconciled with Paul's Gospel.
Happy you made it out of Calvinism. Friends of mind who were atheists. Are now Calvinist. They get some correct. But they don’t really believe Jesus paid the price.
When I began to study the cults that is what I tried to do so as to understand what they believed. But also diving into the scriptures to see if that was so or not. Finding the "not true" became easier and easier once I could recognize the twist.
I have read many of R.C. Sproul's books and benefited from him much. However, every time he would venture off into Calvinism, I would have to endure the hardship. Too bad, but true.
JR,....What the apostate church refers to as "Calvinism" is the actual gospel of the Bible. Anything other than this is another gospel and is the gospel of the accursed. This is why the entire church is apostate, it is filled with the unsaved. Those who have been deceived by the Godless worlds false manmade freewill gospel. The gospel of the accursed.
@@elizabethbennet2859 ,...No need to be sorry. I know you were addressing someone else but I wanted to ask you that question as it appears that you may not correctly understand the real gospel. Most people have been deceived by the apostate church to think that Jesus died for everyone and it is just up to them to accept it.
@@hewhohasearstohearlethimhe4284 Your opinion is very strong, and you seem very convinced of it. However, I have a question for you: if you are wrong, would you like to know it ? Or you would just ignore the comment/question of someone who tells you that you might be wrong ? First of all, you have the same approach a cult member would have: "if you are not one of us, you are an apostate". Not a church/religious group is the source of salvation, but God - who through the Bible - calls people to repentance and faith in Jesus. Second, have you ever considered the logical implications of what you call "the actual gospel of the Bible" ? Do you live in accordance with those logical implications ? Beware of false presuppositions. If you are not living up in real life to the least precept of your belief system, you are not living by faith. You simply make up a belief system, which you escape when it does not fit reality any more. As for me, I do not care if you judge me or not (that I am an apostate). I know who I was (atheist, Nazi, yoga adept) and who I am now (a child of God). I came to know Jesus Christ as my Lord more than 30 years ago through the reading the New Testament. A friend of mine, born again Christian, did not know how to witness to me after the death of my father (she expected me to reject her message). So, she just told me: "God loves you, pray and you will see that He will answer your prayers", then she gave me the New Testament and encouraged me to read it. I was broken enough to be open to read the NT. A few years ago I would have slapped her in the face with the NT, but God did a work in my heart to prepare me for this moment. So, I was open. I started reading the NT and was shocked: page after page I received the answer to the tones of questions that burdened me during those years of darkness. One of them was: "if evolution explains everything and life ends at death, then why do I have free will ?" Even if I did not believe there is an absolute moral standard, I was aware that free will is real: I could not escape it, nor the moral responsibility attached to it. I just hated life because I could not find the answer to my questions. But when I read the NT, God gave me all the answers. I heard and understood Jesus' calling to repentance and faith in Him, and decided to follow Him. I realized that what He offers is what I have been searching all my life, but in wrong places. It was God Himself through the Bible (and not a church) who converted me. I am so gratefull for that. To put my faith at test, God allowed a strong persecution in my life from the very beginning: my mother (who was an Orthodox believer) accused me of getting involved in a cult (this is how she called the Baptist church I was attending). She also used ot say "if you are not one of us, you are an apostate". She also thought that she enters the heaven based on the church she belongs to, not based on repentance, faith and being born again. I now thank God for the persecution He allowed in my life: it helped draw near to God and study the Bible to make sure what I believe is not man-made, but the word of God. At some point after becoming a Christian, some friends of mine tried to preach me the "Calvinist" gospel. But I was not convinced because I could not find enough evidence in the Bible that what they say is correct. One of the things that I understood from Bible was that if God is love and He wants us to love Him (and not just obey Him by duty), then it has to be free will, because love turns on free will. I do believe in a God who is who He says He is = holy and just, but also loving and merciful to all mankind, extending his extravagant love to any sinner. I was that horrible sinner and He came after me and gave me opportunities to open up, to see the truth, to repent, to accept His offer of salvation and love Him in return. I know for a sure thing (from the Bible) that God does this for anyone, because He loves us all equally and Jesus died for all unworthy sinners equally. God gave us free will and He expects us to use it wisely = accept His offer. It is not that I choose God (what you call "false manmade freewill gospel"), but rather that I answer His call to accept His offer of salvation. He offers the salvation to anyone (not only to the "elect"), but people have to respond, repent, accept, and give up everything to follow Him. This is how He created us: able to make decisions and be responsible for them. I see this all over in the Bible, this makes a lot of sense. I can honestly live in accordance with what the Bible teaches. There were also moments in my life when I sinned by resisting God's will, by choosing rather the easy (worldly) way. But God came after me, He disciplined me and brought me to repentance. Then, motivated by His love and care for me, I was ready to follow His will and pay the price. In the meantime I learned that His will is the better and I no longer resist Him (so much or so often) when His will seems too difficult. I have a loving relationship with my Father. A relationship without free will is simply impossible. Do you have a loving relationship with God, or with your belief system ?
@@andrab1287 ,...I have spoken the truth and am not in error as you suppose. Actual Christianity is a cult. It is a small group of people that all believe and understand the same. Those who do not belong to Jesus are apostate, that is the fact. No, we do not have freewill, absolutely not. that 100% false manmade idea only comes from the apostate church not the Bible. God does not love everyone, he only loves the few who are his chosen ones, his elect. The fact is, everything you believe is manmade and does not come from the Bible but from the apostate church. What you refer to as Calvinism is the actual gospel of the Bible. Your manmade freewill gospel is a fraud and is the false gospel of the accursed. Of those who do not belong to Jesus but who belong to the Godless world. God did not come after you, the apostate church (the false prophet) did and has totally deceived you just as it has everyone else. No one accepts God/Jesus, nor chooses him, nor decides to become a Christian. That is a conn the apostate church uses to snare its victims. Yes, salvation is offered to all, but all (every single person) has rejected it. There is not a single person who has ever lived who has accepted Gods salvation. There are only those like you who have been deceived into thinking they can and have. If anyone could have accepted Gods salvation, then Jesus would have never come. He only came because there was absolutely no one that could or would ever accept Gods salvation. You do not have a relationship with God, you only have a relationship with yourself. You, like all those snared into all the 100% apostate churches are self deluded and self deceived. You do not have freewill, you have only been deceived into thinking you do so you can be your own god and save yourself. The apostate churches 100% false manmade freewill gospel is a gospel where you all save yourselves by your wills and your works. It is all 100% dependent on you and what you do. Without your action (work) you would not be saved, it all hinges on you and not on God. Your gospel is an "another" gospel the false gospel of the accursed, of the spiritually dead and blind, of the vessels of wrath and the brute beasts made for destruction. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!
@@hewhohasearstohearlethimhe4284 😂 you Calvinists are always so charitable, kind and reasonable. It’s a wonder more people don’t embrace your theology! Keep on with it. I’m sure you draw many to the faith with your winsome attitude! 😉
@@kraffty1 ,...The "Calvinists" that you revile are the actual Christians. And yes, the actual truth of the Bible that "Calvinists" preach is charitable, kind, reasonable, full of love and mercy. If you were not spiritually dead and blind you would understand this. To the spiritually dead and blind, those outside of the kingdom of God, truth is lies, and love is hate. You see everything to opposite of what it actually is. You are not of the truth, you are of the Godless world. The actual truth of Gods word offends you. The actual gospel "Calvinism" offends you. You only want, love, and can understand lies and deception. Just as your blind, lost, and deceived mothers and only wanted barabbas, so too all you freewillers only want barrabas (the fake jesus and the fake christianity) of the Godless world. Also, it must be understood when I refer to "Calvinism" this is only a reference to the correct gospel that Calvin understood. It has nothing to do with the denomination of Calvinism or with anything else Calvin believed or taught. "Calvinism" is just a reference to the Bibles actual gospel that Calvin gets the credit for putting forth. It is not Calvinism, but just the actual gospel of the Bible. Anything other than the Bibles gospel that the apostate church calls "Calvinism" is another gospel and is the false manmade gospel of the accursed and of the spiritually dead and blind. You have been deceived. Repent!
It is the day we live in. People are ok with murdering their babies in abortion. They call sodomy normal, they hate god. John Piper says God directs the abuse of children forcing people to commit these acts. John Piper says God invented the death camps of the Nazi party and forced people to commit these crimes. yet they hold John Piper up as a great teacher and man of God. here is no hope in the factory corporation churches and seminaries. They all accept it. John Piper " God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that HE HIMSELF BRINGS ABOUT THESE EVIL aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem-God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child . . . Truth in love
Saved and confused is possible, but I don't think that anyone that understands the Bible should promote him at all. You don't need confused people for the crumbs that they get right, sound teachers have the same goods.
I’m sure debates serve a purpose. I for one, have yet to see a convert following a debate. It’s more like a football game, both sides cheer on the home team. The difference from a football game? Both sides declare they were victorious. 🤷♂️ It’s just an analogy, I realize the Word Is not a game….
The purpose of public debates isn't usually for one person debating to change the mind of the person they're debating, but rather it's an attempt to bring clarity to a topic for the people who watch the debate. I watched many debates between various Christians and atheists; I doubt many of the atheists who were debating were convinced of Christianity but I sure was.
I think the possible reason that the word "debate" occurs once in the N.T., in Romans 1, listed with a bunch of bad stuff, is that often the debaters are not interested in good faith communication but winning, by straw man and dishonest misrepresentation if need be.
I get the most out of debates when I don't have a horse in the race, so to speak; or if I don't like the presenter I agree with, but do like the presenter I disagree with.
WHO'S THE BEST LIAR COMPETITION (Romans 3:1-2) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto THEM were committed the ORACLES(word) of God (Amos 2:11) And I raised up of YOUR SONS for PROPHETS, and of YOUR young men for Nazarites. Is it not even thus, O ye CHILDREN OF ISRAEL? saith the Lord (Amos 3:7) Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his SERVANTS the prophets (Deuteronomy 29:29) The SECRET things belong unto the Lord OUR God: but those things which are revealed belong UNTO US and to OUR children FOREVER (Psalm 147:19-20) He sheweth his WORD(bible) unto Jacob, his statutes and his JUDGMENTS(law) unto ISRAEL he hath NOT DEALT so with ANY NATION: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord
But brother (and I've asked several times before to no avail), WHEN was this in your life...where were you if you served in any capacity in a church...how LONG were you a pastor/assoc pastor/etc as a Calvinist, so on & so forth.
Dr. Leighton, could you please do a video explaining how a Provisionist would approach interpreting 1 Thessalonians? Particularly, how one should understand 1:4 and how that may (or may not) affect the view that then should be adopted in 3:1-5. The Calvinist argues 1:4 is a proof of unconditional election and then provides some answers around 3:1-5 and how it does not contradict unconditional election. The Arminian argues that 1:4 is proof of conditional election and then shows how 3:1-5 proves one can fall away from the faith. However, if most Provisionists believe in "eternal security" (in the way you've described in many of your videos), it appears difficult to harmonize eternal security with the non-calvinist interpretation of 1:4. I hope I can be as clear about this as possible: I am not trying to antagonize! I am genuinely curious and desirous to learn about that. 1 Thess 1:4 is another common go-to in support of Unconditional Election. Or if you have any resources, perhaps even by Dr. David Allen, would be immensely appreciated. Thank you!
Hello Aaron. One of the things I saw from your question is that I think that last part of chapter 3 should be looked at too: “Now may our God and Father *himself* , and our Lord Jesus, direct our way to you, and may the Lord *make you* increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you, so that *he may establish* your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.” 1 Thessalonians 3:11-13 ESV Notice how Paul attributes everything to God here. Paul getting to them, he asked God himself to direct. Increasing in love, Paul attributes to God. Establishing of blameless hearts, Paul attributes to God. My point in saying this is that in all these questions, the key player and mover and establisher is God himself. It isn’t the human being. However Paul was genuinely concerned that “the tempter” may have come in and upset some of their faith because of the afflictions Paul himself was suffering. But it didn’t, evidently, it was just a fear Paul expressed. What it would have been like back then to only be able to communicate via messengers or letters! I could imagine there being a lot of worry about things falling apart in your absence and Paul was greatly joyed to see that their faith continued to be strong, attributing that to God! I really think what Paul says to them in his second letter here is mind boggling: “But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ESV Here Paul goes further and says God “chose you as the firstfruits *to be saved* “ ultimately tying God’s choice to salvation itself. To me this is the clearest passage in the entire Bible to do this.
1 Thessalonians explains in the rest of the chapter how the church in Thessalonica were elect. They were the model church amongst all the churches of the day back then. That's the service they provided to the body of Christ back then and throughout the church age. God bless!! :)
Ironically, Tozer had the opposite effect on my theological development. I was drawn to his majestic and transcendent views of God. That helped me appreciate Calvinist theology all the more.
I recently started looking into predestination and lean toward that side. But what I experience as the problem with both sides is that the problems arise as soon as anyone on both sides become arrogant. Calvinists thinking that they are somehow special but also arminians thinking they can save themselves. So im not all the way on either side
Arminius was a Calvinist, that objected to certain Calvinist teaching. How better off we would be if we could debate beliefs, without labels (Calvinism, arminianism) placed on the opponent. Why? Because there are assumptions the audience will hold when hearing pelagianism, calvinism or arminianism. Debate the doctrine teaching of the other side using scripture as support for the debater's doctrine position.
It’s so interesting to me how people will take the word Calvinist and have feelings and personal meanings and definitions attached to it and some people even make it sound like it’s a cult. there’s people out there that hear the word Christian and it puts a horrible taste in their mind because of their personal experiences and traumas that they’ve dealt with other Christians. So titles don’t matter. I think it just matters who we worship and glorify and how we love others in this world.
It is sad. The reason Calvinism (at least in America) can be kinda cult-like is they live in their bubble. They read Piper and the like, they go to Calvinistic churches, only watch Calvinistic sermons, etc. and when somebody big like Piper denounces somebody, everyone else falls in line. Nobody criticizes the big guys. There’s a lot of groupthink going on. Comparatively, Arminians tend to be very nonchalant about theology, if you get them to talk about it (Methodists as an example very rarely talk theology despite a rich tradition). We are more focused on the practice and simple message of the Gospel vs. head knowledge. I as an Arminian attend a church which is majority Calvinist, I’ve watched sermons by TULIP pastors, and I currently give to a Calvinist college ministry because one of my friends from India is in that group. Calvinism imo is bad theology (which makes God a monster), but God saves us in spite of bad theology, not because we have the right theology. John Wesley (who was super salty about Calvinism) nonetheless delivered the sermon at the funeral of his friend George Whitfield, who was one of the most famous Calvinists ever. We should take a lesson from this on unity.
IMHO, the problem is that we are fish in the sea and we don't know how to think as land animals. We swim in time and forget there was a time when there was no time. God exists outside of time. We don't ponder that enough.
Leighton Flowers, I can't wait until you get into Patristics and Canonics. When you discover Sts. John Chrysostom, Irenaeus, and Cassian, your world will change. You will start thinking that Jacob Arminius didn't go far enough. I look forward to seeing the mature expression of your faith.
I wonder How many ppl got into calvinism based on what someone told them. How many DONT pray to God for guidance and use to Word arrive at their conclusions (emphasis on prayer)
Imagine making your absurd statement to Jesus, a great intellect and debater. Was Jesus's purpose to bring truth or self-agrandizement? We humans were created by God with a brain, with emotions, and with a soul.
@@sheilasmith7779 You speak as if Jesus was a mere mortal. He did not debate. He spoke with authority...so much so, that the Pharisees of His day, hated Him for it.
@@dc-wp8oc Where is the " mere human," in my statement? Where is the mere intellect of humans in my statement? Jesus displayed both human characteristics ( like reasoning) and divine characteristics like performing miracles. With your fear of misused intellect, which can surely happen, keep the following in mind: "Come, let us reason together." The meaning of the WORD. "And the Word was made flesh." WORD in Greek is Logos, and logos means, reason. Do humans place too much value on intellect? Yes Do humans place too little value on intellect? Yes Do humans place too much emphasis on emotions? Yes. Do humans place too much and too little emphasis on experience? Yes. But your statements are an inaccurate representation of the reality of human nature. Your perspective is limited and incomplete. The truth is, the glass is half full, and the glass is half empty.....both are true at the same time. Perspective, d c, perspective.
@@dc-wp8oc Do you think the Paracees would have feared Jesus's " authority," if Jesus made illogical, silky arguments? They feared that His teachings would be persuasive, drawing jews away from Pharacee influence....which would mean for them a loss of revenue, personal wealth.....and loss of their benefits from their Roman rulers, compared to the ordinary Jewish citizen. Your simplistic thinking causes you to miss the forest for the trees.
@@dc-wp8oc (Romans 3:1-2) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto THEM were committed the ORACLES(word) of God (Amos 2:11) And I raised up of YOUR SONS for PROPHETS, and of YOUR young men for Nazarites. Is it not even thus, O ye CHILDREN OF ISRAEL? saith the Lord (Amos 3:7) Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his SERVANTS the prophets (Deuteronomy 29:29) The SECRET things belong unto the Lord OUR God: but those things which are revealed belong UNTO US and to OUR children FOREVER (Psalm 147:19-20) He sheweth his WORD(bible) unto Jacob, his statutes and his JUDGMENTS(law) unto ISRAEL he hath NOT DEALT so with ANY NATION: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord ☝️Debates between heathen are simply glorified who's the best liar contests
What do people do with all these passages about God's sovereignty, man's inability, Jesus guaranteeing salvation for some, not for other's, just dismiss them?
Is it parts of Calvinism that you do not affirm? Or is it the “camp” of Calvinists that you don’t affirm? If so, what parts? I didn’t really pick up on what parts you thought were wrong, or against scripture, just that you didn’t like the people’s responses. I’d like to hear your take and research on the issue, and if it’s a particular doctrine within the Calvinistic system, or if it’s all wrong, and why.
GS,...What religious people call Calvinism is the actual gospel of the Bible, and this guy is against the gospel of the Bible and sells the false gospel of the Godless world (the beast). He, like those outside of the kingdom of God do not like any Biblical truth, they only want and love lies and deception.
@@hewhohasearstohearlethimhe4284 There is no "Gospel" or "Good News" in Calvinism. If you are predestined from eternity past to be a Christian then you were never rescued from anything. Why? Because you were never in any danger. There is no "Good News" just passage of time.
@@ericfisher1360 ,...Well, first off, if you were not still spiritually dead and blind you would know and understand that it is the real gospel "Calvinism" that is the good news. Your false manmade freewill gospel is not good news, it is a false manmade gospel of works. Your freewill gospel is only fake good news to those deceived by it. It is not in reality good news. It is a gospel that leads to the lake of fire. That is not good news. All mankind is headed for eternal damnation. No one can save themselves as your 100% fake freewill gospel has deceived you to believe. The good news (gospel) is, God chose to save/redeem a few for his good pleasure. This is only good news to these few. But it is good news. Since the rest of the Godless world were not chosen by God but are vessels of wrath made for destruction, they have created their own gospel, the freewill gospel, where anyone can become saved, and where you all save yourselves based on your wills and your works. You have taken God out and put yourselves in the place of God. You have tried to take Gods kingdom by force and have tried to enter in some other way. Jesus called you all thieves and robbers, and the Bible calls you brute beasts made for destruction and vessels of wrath. "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2 Thessalonians 2:4 KJV "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." Matthew 11:12 KJV "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber." John 10:1 KJV "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" 2 Peter 2:12 KJV "But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves." Jude 1:10 KJV "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:" Romans 9:22 KJV
Okay. From the video and comments I think we can arrive at a conclusion about Calvinism, and reformed theology: The problem is not the theology per se, but it’s about the character of the expositor. Since AW was greatly respected by Martin Lloyd - Jones, and both pursued holiness and believed strongly that you must be a pursuer of holiness to enter the gates of heaven, this pursuit should change your character to be gracious and understand other people who may see a little differently. It’s close to the same thing between Wesley and Whitefield. Wesley would never have countenanced what his Wesleyan descendants had done. I’m not really a Calvinist because I don’t buy into the “pop - Calvinism“ that it has become. People don’t realize that you cannot wield these doctrines in a slapdash or insulting way. So in my estimation, it’s not the tool that is the problem it’s the mechanic wielding it
No, the theology is awful and riddled with Laodicean backslidden private interpretation. Why glean from the muck when you can drink from the waters of life? Try perverting algebra the same way and see if you can pass the test.
LF, very good material once again. However, a "How to leave the JW's" ministry I know recommends distancing yourself from their propaganda & teachers for years if necessary, so as to not get sucked back in or think a JW booklet on prayer is harmless. Knowing the Aaron Rodgers' & Derek Webb's that have walked away or deconstructed their beliefs. I don't understand giving props to leading Calvinists? Especially the ones you have sighted as having cognitive dissonance regarding scripture vs his Institutes???
I don't think it's quite fair to put jw and Calvinists in the same box. To "give props" to some leading Calvinists that you have done disagreements with is just good ecumenism.
@@leenieledejo6849 repent of fellowshipping with people who have disagreements with me on things that are not primary? Why? Can you give me some scripture that would tell me to repent of ecumenism?
@@4jgarnerBecause it is calling God a liar, anyone with basic sense can learn what the Bible teaches by studying like it says. Ecumenical Christians are the bane of sound doctrine. Did you ever read the New Testament warnings about this? 2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; Basic logic and the fact that God inspired this into the Scriptures is enough to have some stones and take a stand. Not everyone is going to be your friend, so gird up your loins and get in the fight.
You still hold onto Sproul tapes, because maybe subconsciously you were hoping one of you would eventually align theologically with the other. With Sproul's passing, you alone are left with that advantage 😉
I'm Sorry I really just don't get it , You Mr Flowers have demonstrated in your videos without any doubt that the god of Calvinism is a different god period, You have shown this with carful reading of scripture, And more then that you show how much they contradict themselves speak out off both sides of their mouth which by def is dishonesty So how in the the world can you speak of RC Sproul Piper MacArthur as anything other then false teachers and even say you respect them???
Good question. I guess maybe because even believers can fall prey to pride and stubbornness. We desperately desire to “be right” and to be in control, and sometimes we cloak that desire in the guise of pursuing correct doctrine. And while there’s nothing wrong with wanting to align our faith with clean and accurate doctrine (in fact, we should), theological wrangling can become an idol and at the end of the day, it’s not as effective for edification as we like to think it is. Anyway, it’s probably easier to study and debate theology than it is to humbly submit to Christ every day and admit to Him our spiritual poverty so that, like little children, we are always dependent on Him. We like to think we are beyond the “poor in Spirit” bit. lol. The modern American church could use a thorough dose of 1 Corinthians 13. The whole chapter. I know I could!
Genesis 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. Ezekiel Chapter 25 15Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the Philistines have dealt by revenge, and have taken vengeance with a despiteful heart, to destroy it for the old hatred; 16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will stretch out mine hand upon the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethims, and destroy the remnant of the sea coast. 17And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.
DW: I totally agree. When I really came to understand the underlying foundation of Calvinist doctrine - and then listen to John Piper and R.C. Sproul - all I am hearing is constant stream of Calvinist DOUBLE-SPEAK which Calvinist recite to themselves in order to make the belief system palatable. A large percentage of Calvinist DOUBLE-SPEAK is simply the Calvinist lying to himself for emotional reasons. Why anyone would consider Calvinist DOUBLE-SPEAK artists as providing any value to a serious follower of Jesus Christ - is mind boggling.
Some of what Piper says (see example below) is horrifying. As if God is thinking "oh well, the times are harsh so I can excuse a little murder" (!!!) Leighton needs to read "What Love is this", THE critique of Calvinism by the late Dave Hunt which is filled with the words of Calvin himself and his followers. I don't know HOW Leighton can keep listening to them. He needs to heed the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:29-30. "Fifteen women were burned at the stake and there were some cruelties... Calvin called for a swift execution (of Servetus) instead of burning, but he was burned at the stake in 1553. It's not clear that most of us, given that milieu, would not have acted similarly under the circumstances....the times were harsh...and had a contaminating effect on everyone. There was in the life of Calvin a grand God-centredness, Bible allegiance and iron constancy." (The Legacy of Sovereign Joy: God's triumphant grace in the lives of Augustine, Luther and Calvin - John Piper)
@@leenieledejo6849 DW: Good comments! It is good to understand - Calvinism entails a "Good-Evil" DUALISM which is derived from Augustine who spent a decade of his life in a Christian Gnostic sect - and then transitioned into NeoPlatonism which was prevalent during the early phase of the Catholic church. The Gnostic and the NeoPlatonic systems both shared two characteristics unique to Calvinism - which are Determinism and a "Good-Evil" DUALISM - where "Good" and "Evil" are co-necessary, co-complimentary, and co-equal. Augustine -quote And because this orderly arrangement maintains the *HARMONY OF THE UNIVERSE* by this very contrast, it comes about that *EVIL THINGS MUST NEED BE* In this way, the beauty of all things is in a manner configured, as it were, from antitheses, that is, from opposites: this is pleasing to us even in discourse”. (ord 1.7.19) SInce Calvinism entails "Good-Evil" DUALISM - many things appear within it - in the form of "Good-Evil" pairs. For example - we have a THEOS who is the divine potter of Roman's 9 - who conceives of every individual he will create - and the MANY he creates/designs specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for his good pleasure. Ministries like Piper and Macarthur would loose a large percentage of their audience if they did not obfuscate the *DIVINE EVIL* part of Calvinism's DUALISTIC doctrine. The reason why Calvinists label the doctrine a "doctrine of grace" is because they are trying to obfuscate its EVIL side. So in Calvinism - the term "Grace" must be redefined to include creating/designing the vast majority of the human population specifically for eternal torment - for a god's good pleasure.
Luther tortured people who disagreed and Bunyan tortured himself for years and almost left the Lord as he assumed his struggles with sin must mean he was predestined to hell.
Sorry I don't care for books from guys who preach a false gospel. The one thing we need to get right so the Calvinists gospel is either true or false. If its false (and it is) what does scripture teach about preaching a false gospel?
Wonder why people could not figuer out the reality that there is no such thing as Tozer-ism, and anyone else standing in the last 500 years in Christian world, but Calvinism. It is by no accident, but something you CAN"T BELIEVE, which is the sovereignty of God. Or, in some people's obssesion, the predestination.
If Calvinism is true and people are damned to hell, then why would there be a great while throne of judgment? No reason to judge someone who had no choice. They will be judged “according to their works.” Their works is the problem because they did not accept the work of Jesus on the cross.
I am more along the lines of... Calviminianism. LOL I feel the truth lies somewhere between the two debates. Denominations were built on hyper-emphasizing certain scriptures to prove certain points while shying away from scriptures that would disprove concrete conclusions. That's why no denomination represents 100% accurate theology. But the Lord understands his children's obsessive need to be right, even though they are wrong. The real sin is demonizing Christians who, although they agree on the core aspects of the faith, disagree on secondary issues. Of that the Lord is quite intolerant and we should tread carefully when disagreeing with our eternal family.
Thanks for coming on our show!
I’m 40, have been reading and studying the Bible in English and Spanish since I was five, have read the Bible well over 30 times, can very easily recognize a misquoted verse or detail, and am deeply convicted that I have barely begun to scratch the surface of understanding and applying God’s word in my life.
I have read many commentaries, and the writings of many of those considered the “fathers” and great theologians.
I find that all the reading of extra-biblical books can often be encouraging, but for most Christians, it is predominantly a distraction from simply engaging God’s written word, and leads to them blaming others when they fail in any way regarding faith and living in Christ.
It is important for us to encourage one another to engage God’s word, far above all other material we take in, everyday.
Best comment I’ve ever seen on a topic like this! So true the simplicity of the the gospel is so beautiful! Made difficult by so many theological differences! Context is important but, turning people away from the saving Grace which is one of the purposes of the Holy Spirit to reveal truth of Gods word to us. God bless you sir for your dedication!
Which Bible version(s) do you use?
@@davidmuth4571 I grew up reading the NKJV, KJV, and NIV in English and the RV in Spanish.
Today, 30 years later, I still read these versions but now include the ESV, NASB, NLT, CSV NRSV, and other modern English and Spanish versions.
For me, I find that Calvinists are so vicious in their opinions, they act like you are their enemy if you think different...that is what hurts me the most.
Me too
You should explore cessationism. There you will find the building blocks to blasphemy. John Calvin played a primary role in the torture and execution of 58 innocent people in Geneva in only 5 years. During that time, John Calvin plotted for several years to murder a man named Michael Servetus which he did. He also outlawed all musical instruments, art, and anything visual that glorifies Jesus Christ. John Calvin was buried in an unmarked grave at an unknown location and received the burial of a murderer. This is who founded Calvinism. Origins have meaning.
God is not an argument. God is a joy, a liberation, a more abundant life. A more beautiful life. A more graceful life. Don't get stuck in the pride of the intellect. God transcends the intellect. By their fruits, ye shall know them. And the fruit of the Holy Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
Very nicely said!
Beautiful words of wisdom and graceful truth...Bless you!
Yeeeeees🙌🏼🙏🏼 AMEN🥰😭
I was saved in a church that would be considered "Armenian ". After about 5 years or so of reading the Bible, delving into fundamental theology, reading books by scholarly men, I began to explore Calvanism. I began to lean toward Calvanism somewhat, and shared this with several people in the church I attended. My pastor sat down with me and asked if I had explored the TULIP. He suggested I read up on the 5 points of Calvanism, and see what I thought.
I told him that I would like to read the 5 points as presented by a scholarly Calvanist, so that I would not be influenced by other opinions. He suggested that that was a good plan and I began my study.
After several months of study, I approached my pastor and said, WOW, I don't believe ANY of the 5 points. Incidentally, I still don't.
However, I have several good Calvanist friends that love the Lord. I told them that they could believe our Sovereign God created them to go to heaven and forced His Grace upon them, and I will believe that our Sovereign God created me as a free moral agent, offered me His Grace as a free gift, and I willingly accepted it.❤❤
Wouldn’t you say that G-d forced you to exist? However you may call it, G-d has “forced” His will onto his creation several times throughout scripture. And if He “forces” His Grace onto His elect, then Hallelujah, because I sure wouldn’t have been able to believe in Him otherwise.
@@Patrick-sb2sb You had a very wise pastor.
@@ggsheet I think Calvanist go way to far with their idea of "total depravity". There is no question that before we get saved, we are spiritually dead. But, remember, when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, they died spiritually as well. And yet, they recognized their nakedness, tried to rectify the problem with fig leaves (works of self-righteousness) hid because of shame when God called them out. They were convicted when He rebuked them, and they willingly received and wore the Animal skins that God provided for them (a type of His blood sacrifice). So, they weren't in some zombie state after the fall. They were aware, repentant, and willing to receive.
Keep studying the Bible because TULIP is Biblical and backed by God's word the Bible. Once you understand the definition of man's total depravity the other points line up perfectly.
@@LAStreetPreacher Yer nah.
I like these shorter videos, they're good to get a concise bit of knowledge.
Tozer and Ravenhill have blessed me greatly
Me too 🙏🏼
Likewise! Listen to all their old sermons
Great reminder to not listen to these “shepherds” based on categories like denomination or theology but listen by the Spirit. Which requires having the Spirit of God ourselves. Thanks for the reminder!!!
Tozer sounds and reads like a tough, stoic Calvinist, but he has a deep heart of love for people. Tozer positively quotes many of the old Catholic saints without apology. Remember, he ministered in Chicago in a tough environment. He wasn't merely cerebral. He was evangelizing in the inner city.
As a believer for over 30 years I have never put myself a in any religious name Calvinist Arminian Fundamentalist Charismatic etc. It just has never been on my radar
Nevertheless, actual Christians know what the real gospel is and what the fake gospels are. The fact is, you have yet to actually become a Christian, this is why these things have not been on your radar, and why you do not know what the real gospel is and what it is not.
@@hewhohasearstohearlethimhe4284 That is not true
@@Hambone3773 ,...What is true is that what the church calls "Calvinism" is the one and only gospel of the Bible. It is the opposite of all other denominations. If anyone does not understand that if any denomination does not understand and hold with what Calvin understood, they are not a Christian and have another gospel. This has to be 100% on evey Christians radar.
@@hewhohasearstohearlethimhe4284 Poor Paul the Apostle then as he was never a Calvinist.
@@Hambone3773 ,...Paul with 100% certainty understood what Calvin understood. There is only one real gospel and all the apostles as well as Calvin understood it. You sadly do not, and have another gospel, the false manmade gospel of the accursed. Repent.
Your comment that you wouldn't have read Tozer if you knew he wasn't a Calvinist really reveals a major issue with a lot of people. They believe a systematic, rather than the gospel. Systematics can be helpful in explaining Biblical concepts, but they can easily turn into idols.
Tozer is one of the best after the scriptures. Calvinism is a non starter in the world of truth. Keep up the good work my friend!
You are completely blind, lost, and deceived. Tozer is not a Christian nor is anyone that thinks he is. "Calvinism" is the actual gospel of the Bible. Your manmade freewill gospel is a 100% fraud. It is the manmade gospel of the accursed and of the spiritually dead and blind as all those snared into it clearly show.
Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!
Since Dr. Flowers is connected with a seminary, it may be worthwhile to point out that neither Tozer nor Lloyd-Jones had any formal theological training. Is there something missing in the ivory towers of academia?
Loads!
Great point
Yep. 1 Corinthians 1:17 thru 2:16 & 3:18-21 sum it up.
Paul was the only “seminary graduate” of the bunch and he flushed all his original theology down the toilet.
Lloyd Jones was a staunch Calvinist
If you are going to write a thesis paper are you going to get a good grade by just rehashing the same stuff, of do you have to find something novel?
It seems to me that often times when those who hold tightly to a flawed position will not openly denounce a person of high regard and universal respect (A.W. Tozer, C.W Lewis),
they are not being intellectually honest. That was a red flag to me regarding Calvinism.
I'm aware of public calvanists who call out the uncalcanist beliefs of Lewis and Tozer. They don't condemn them, of course, because calvanist beliefs aren't inherently what saves a person, but they do disagree with those aspects.
@@kevinjackson4933Even John MacArthur has said that Calvinism IS the Gospel!
@@graftme3168John MacArthur also stated you can take the mark and be forgiven. Blatant Blasphemy
Great video! I'm in a Calvinist community group as a Universalist (reconciliationist), but I'm CONSTANTLY telling these guys to read something other than MacArthur or Piper or White. They know I'm a former Calvinist and left it after intense study. Glad you explored other sides of theology!
Surely the starting point must be the man Calvin himself. How can anyone accept the teachings of a man who had those who opposed him doctrinally brutally killed?
"Calvinism" existed long before John Calvin did.
@@fakesummer3942 ,....Correct, what the lost call Calvinism is simply the actual truth of the Bible that these people have no understanding of. The truth of Gods word has always existed.
BW,....What you have just stated is so absolutely ignorant that it explains why you have been snared into the Godless worlds false freewill gospel and fake christianity. First off, did you personally see Calvin kill anyone? Or are you just parroting what you have been told by men?
Second, please read the old testament and see how many God had killed for being opposed to him and his laws and commands. Third, Jesus was/is God, so why would you accept the teachings of Jesus as it was him who had millions killed for being opposed to him.
Fourth, the fact is, it is you and all those who fill all the 100% apostate churches are those who oppose God, and God is going to kill you all on the last day. Your gospel is false, your christianity is fake, and you are completely steeped in darkness and deception. Repent!
@@fakesummer3942Such Ignorance
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436Yes, devil doctrine has always existed. Repent of this thy wickedness
Tower and Ravenhill are both loved by cessationist Calvinists and were, ironically, continuationists and Arminians.
Ravenhill is hardcore. You could pray 3 hours a day and if you read one of his books you’ll feel convicted for not praying enough. 😆
@lancesteinke3732 He would get up in his 80s or 90s at around 2 or 3 am and pray 2 hours.
Ravenhill was essentially a Pentecostal (he was a Samuel Chadwick spiritual descendant, who was himself William Booth acquaintance if I'm not mistaken) when the English Methodists were essentially Pentecostals.
If you read The Way To Pentecost by Chadwick, you'll see much in common with modern Pentecostalism, ironically. That was Ravenhill's stock. Those folks prayed and prayed as if their life depended on it.
I'm going to have to check Ravenhill out, I think I've heard him mentioned before but I don't know anything about him.
@@Swiftninjatrev
He's the devil the bible speaks of as are all caucazoids
@@isaiah345-6 Ravenhilll is Satan? aw no I'd better stay away from em then
totally jk bro.
Calvinist would say only some are elect and the others God passes over and leaves in their sin yet the Calvinist would get in the pulpit and call all to believe the gospel! A seemingly contradiction. I’m glad I’m no longer grid locked in Calvin’s system! Period.
Yes when you talk to them one on one they say one thing, but from the pulpit they say the opposite.
Salvation comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The offer of salvation by Calvinists to sinners is absolutely sincere, Spirit inspired and a genuine plea. He that hath an ear, let him hear.
@@justintillett Sincere like a Robot.
@@truth7416 If you set up the question so as to put the will of God in competition with the will of man you have set up a foolish question.
@@justintillett He that wins souls is wise. Has a Calvinist ever won a soul like the Bible says us Christians are to do?
They make Atheists faster the the Catholic Pope.
Your Reformed catechism classes have done their supernatural magic on you. It replaced the ability to think for yourself and replaced it with the mind of the Hive.
Truth in Love
AWT really was a great exegete and inspiration to many of us. Praise the Lord he never fell into the error of Calvinism.
You mean he never learned or understood the actual truth and true gospel of the Bible. What the lost refer to as Calvinism is the actual gospel of the Bible. Your freewill gospel is a fraud and will only put you into the lake of fire. Repent!
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 So do you believe that Calvinism is a salvific position? If so it seems that the LORD has fooled me into believing in him, yet barring me from Heaven due to my non-calvinistic stance.
@@-7n ,....Yes, absolutely, What the lost refer to as "Calvinism" that is in reality just the actual gospel and truth of the Bible. Anything other than this is another gospel. The saved do not, not understand the Bibles gospel. It is only the lost who do not understand it due to them being spiritually dead and blind exactly as they deny in fact proving the truth of "Calvinism".
I guess we can say that God has fooled you in that the truth of Gods word is hid from you and you are only able to believe lies and deceptions.
Matthew Ch. 13,
10, "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11, He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12, For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13, Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14, And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15, For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16, But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:" 2 Corinthians 4:3 KJV
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 you are far from the truth. Calvinism is a doctrine of devils.
John 3:16 and 2 Timothy 2:4 destroy Calvinism in just 2 verses. But really the whole bible is against those Satanic doctrines. Maybe stop reading its literature and just read the bible.
Watch the UA-cam channel: Beyond the Fundamentals for help.
@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 You really managed to make me smile with your calvinistsic persiflage, thanks.
Wow this whole time I thought Tozer was a calvinist. I attended Masters seminary for a while and they spoke good about him so i figured he was one.
Nope. He's was one of the good ones..... Lol :)
@@argollo I would also get him mixed up with Martin Lloyd Jones
@@argolloAmen!
Knowledge of the Holy is an incredible book.
It seems the fuel of Calvinism is pride, arrogance, and intellectual superiority. A sure recipe to get one thrown out of heaven.
I disagree and know many humble, loving believers who hold to Calvinism, and I know many humble loving Arminians. I also know many Arminians who have made soteriology such a hot button issues that they hold their own position with pride, arrogance, and intellectual superiority. The important thing is the gospel.
@@mikehouston9455 unfortunately, I've expected arrogance, pride, and a "I'm more theologically sound than you attitude" and I've heard a podcast of ex Calvinist talking about this as well. They just thought they were smarter. I wrestle with pride! So I'm not saying they're inherently prideful, But as a dominating characteristic of a doctrine, I've seen these things as being prevalent when asserting these beliefs. Not that that's their prevailing character, to be clear.
The problem isn't Calvinism or Arminianism. The problem is the attitude with which people hold to these positions. And that is evidenced by the commenters below with phrases like, "Calvinism is a non starter in the world of truth," and Tozer "being one of the good ones" (meaning a non-Calvinist), and Calvinists "not being intellectually honest." And if you were to go to a youtube video that talked about the errors of Arminianism, you would find similar negative comments. Yes, I lean towards one of these positions, but I also greatly respect people who hold to both of these positions, and I refuse to speak ill of a brother or sister in Christ or a position that can be supported by scripture - and both positions can depending on how you interpret certain passages. We don't all agree on young earth/old earth creationism nor do we all agree regarding our views of eschatology, but neither do we chose to tear each other down over our positions regarding those issues.
End of the day, I like the way that I once heard it explained as, "God chooses people for salvation. Man has a responsibility to respond. Somehow those two work together. I can't explain it, and neither can you."
But we in Christianity really shoot ourselves in the foot when we choose to defame each other rather than stay focused on the gospel.
So what precisely in Tozer's "The Knowledge of the Holy" are you referring to?
Exactly! I was surprised and disappointed that this video was vague and played like a fictional novel when it comes to specifically define what Tozer wrote that was the catalyst to doubting The Doctrines of Grace. Further, what did he read and from what source that continued his doubts. Systematically, he could just list bullet points and let the viewer investigate. I find that would have been more helpful than just an overall statements that he left The Doctrines of Grace.
As R C Sproul has mentioned, and you also referred to, it is good to know, research and grasp both sides of the issues. R C indicated that he would read books by aetheists to ascertain their perspective to get insight of the issue. With this in mind and for the benefit of everyone who also would like to know, instead of telllng about your decision to depart from The Doctrines of Grace because of something you read from Tozer and your further investigations, systematically please list exactly what you read and by whom, in chronological order. This will prove to be much more helpful for any who is curious to know. I would enjoy the adventure and the mystery of the intrigue! Blessings
With a Tozer jump start, you avoid the towing charge incurred when departing from Calvinism, and afterwards can celebrate A.W. with some A&W Root Beer, perhaps with a sugar-free option for those counting calories.
Lord Calvin will not tolerate the insolent Tozer!
@@John3.36 Perhaps in the eternal rest awaiting their resurrection in Christ, Calvin is dozing next to Tozer.
@@annakimborahpa
(Romans 9:13) Jacob have I loved but Esaw have I hated
☝️Their both descendants of esaw as are all caucasians - obviously their both in the pit of hell - have a seat n stop lyin
@@isaiah345-6 "Wherefore, I ahbor myself and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:6, KJV)
@@annakimborahpa
Caucasians biblical God given ethnicity and written judgement makes it obvious that "job 42:6 doesn't apply to them - note the phrases "no repentance" written long after the resurrection - and "not 1 remaining" a future prophecy
👇
( Hebrews 12:16-17 kjv) Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as
E S. A U when he would have inherited the blessing, he was REJECTED: for he found NO PLACE OF "REPENTANCE"
(Malachi 1:2-4) yet I loved Jacob, And I hated E. S. A. U and they shall call THEM, The border of "WICKEDNESS" and, THE PEOPLE against whom the Lord hath indignation FOREVER
(Psalm 11:5-6) The Lord trieth the righteous: but the "WICKED" and him that loveth violence his soul hateth Upon the WICKED he shall rain "FIRE" and "BRIMSTONE" this shall be the portion of their cup
(Obadiah 1:18) And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of E. S. A. U for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall NOT BE ANY REMAINING of the house of
E. S. A. U. for the LORD hath spoken it
THUS SAYETH THE LORD
I think if you like CS Lewis you'd like George Macdonald, he was Lewis's favorite theologian and he said he never wrote a book in which he didn't quote Macdonald. He was brought up a calvinist and grew up to be a staunch anti calvinist. He actually said he cried when he was a kid and he heard the doctrine of election first explained to him. I admit he had some opinions most Christians would consider heretical such as universalism, but hes still worth checking out, his sermons have been a major inspiration for me and I cannot recommend them enough, if your uncomfortable with his more controversial opinions they're mostly found in a series of books called Unspoken Sermons, he has more mainstream christian content in his books Hope of the Gospel and Miracles of our Lord. Be warned if you value lukewarmness and softness on sin, Macdonald is tougher on sin than any preacher I've ever heard.
Agreed this is concise and i do so appreciate your calling to speak out against a view of God that has been distorted through.... anyone who isn't intellectually honest enough to consider this makes God different at best.... from when they first believed ie.. born again gives me pause..
Galatians 1:10 NASB95 - For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ
I remember that message board of which you speak. I was not aware that Derek was no longer a believer. So sad. At any rate, that is a fascinating story. Thank you for sharing.
Which board was it?
@@littlefishbigmountain personally I don't remember. Been years
CalvinISM is another gospel, let them be accursed
Dr. Flowers, A.W. Tozer is one of my favorite mentors, along with Dr. Derek Prince and Watchman Nee.
I came across a book: Is GOD a Vindictive Bully? Reconciling Portrayals of GOD in the Old and New Testaments, Paul Copan. You may remember that I think that Calvinism is the worse heresy in the church. I will not back down from my opinion on that. I teaches " a different gospel " just as Roman Catholicism does. When any doctrine " touches" the CROSS of CHRIST, that's my " fighting ground. " I ask GOD to help me to have the right attitude toward leaders in Roman Catholicism and Calvinism, though.
Anyway, I was looking up whether or not Copan is/was a Calvinist, and got side tracked and came across this article discussing an article by Chris Chapan - Finally Submitting To Calvinism
This is what William Birch had to say ( 3-14-2013 )
" It ( Calvinism) is the hardest philosophy to swallow, so it must be the most GOD-glorifying theology on the market. "
This one brief line summed up the entire article for me; it also articulated the experience of many, including my own.
But adopting Calvinism not only made me feel more Biblical, more devoted as a " big GOD " theology advocate ( as I read recently on the Gospel Coalition blog ), I also felt intellectually superior to all non-Calvinists. Now That is a blog post I've been wanting to write, especially since R.C. Sproul, in his: Chosen By GOD, virtually admits the exact same notion - that Calvinists are intellectually superior. He even lined up the proponents of Calvinism and non-Calvinist ideology in an effort to prove his point. What he proved, in my opinion, is that even brilliant men can commit some of the worse theological errors imaginable."
Well, I sure agree with that!
Now, back to my research on Paul Copan.
May GOD Bless you and your ministry, in CHRIST'S name, amen. 💐
I don’t think of myself as intellectually superior nor do I think Calvinists do in general. But what most all of them will say and agree upon (myself too) is that they don’t necessarily “like” all the implications.
I’d rather God save everyone and have mercy on everyone. I don’t want anyone to perish or to experience hell! But this is not what the Bible teaches.
In much of the same way, I’d love it if people could will themselves to repent and turn from their evil of their own free will. And that the salvation process was more of a cooperative or symbiotic relationship between God and his creatures. But I don’t think this is what the Bible is teaching (at least pre-regeneration, I do think there is a symbiosis in sanctification) and so I can’t buy into it.
Does this make me a heretic or submissive to what I believe God revealed in scripture?
" I don’t want anyone to perish or to experience hell! But this is not what the Bible teaches."
God doesn't either. The Bible teaches that too.
"In much of the same way, I’d love it if people could will themselves to repent and turn from their evil of their own free will."
So why did John the Baptist preach repentance if it's something that nobody can do? Why did God through the prophets plead with Israel and Judah to repent if it's impossible?
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and *ye would not!* "
We can repent. What we can't do is match God-level standards of righteousness. For that we have to put our faith in Christ.
@@gregmahler9506 You absolutely are believing heresy. You are believing a " false gospel " " another JESUS " another example of " traditions of men " - such as found in Roman Catholicism ( Greek Orthodox, etc.), Judaism and the major cult of Islam.
EVERY cult has a " different JESUS " which naturally promotes a " different gospel " ( or not one at all in Islam - JESUS was just a prophet ). The finger print of " doctrines of demons" ALWAYS diminishes CHRIST, and therefore the CROSS, and therefore the SALVATION OF MANKIND. Which makes perfect sense, if you were Satan.
Reformation Theology is Not in Scripture. One has to see Scripture THROUGH the Calvinist grid to come up with Calvinism. It was Not taught in the early church. The seeds of this blaspheme came in with AUGUSTINE, over 300 years after the church began in Jerusalem. You will Not find Calvinism in any of the Orthodox Churches, because they had no Augustine. It's that simple.
Further more, the false doctrine of cessationism is the bosom buddy of this heresy. So you not only have a " different JESUS " and a " different gospel " you have a POWERLESS church. Another thing that makes perfect sense, if you were a heresy spinner, such as Satan. He ALWAYS mixes his heresies with enough truth to slip them in the back door.
I sometimes use this analogy: Say there was a nice man, who would never harm anyone knowingly. This kind man had a fatal very contagious disease, but did not know it. Does his lack of knowledge nullify the effects of the disease? No, it does not. That's what Calvinism is like. I am thinking about how nice everyone thinks John Piper is. He may be nice. He may have good intentions, but he carries the disease of Calvinism, and what a nice carrier. A great success story, as heresies go - because he's SO nice.
Books: The Foundation of Augustinian Calvinism, Dr. Ken Wilson
Calvinism: A Biblical And Theological Critique, Dr. David L. Allen and Dr. Steve W. Lemke
Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation, 3rd Edition Dr. Hutson Smelly
The Other Side of Calvinism, Lawrence Vance
Calvinism: None Dare Call It Heresy: The Life and Teachings of John Calvin, Dr. Bob Kirkland
Calvinism and The Problem of Hell and Damnation, Ronnie Rodgers
Why I Am Not a Calvinist, Dr. Jerry Walls and Dr. Joseph R. Donagall
What Love Is This? Calvinism's Misrepresention of GOD, Dave Hunt, 4th Edition
Against Calvinism: Rescuing GOD'S Reputation from Radical Reformed Theology, Rodger Olson
Does GOD Love Everyone? The Heart of What's Wrong with Calvinism, Dr. Jerry Walls
Does GOD Love All or Some? Comparing Biblical Extensivism to Calvinism's Exclusivism, Ronnie W. Rodgers
GOD'S Provision For All: A Defense of GOD'S Goodness, Dr. Leighton Flowers
The Potter's Promise: A Biblical Defense of Traditional Soteriology, Dr. Leighton Flowers
Mike Winger/UA-cam
I pray that you will come out of this deception. In CHRIST'S name, amen 💐
@@gregmahler9506 Greg - to put it crudely - non-calvinist's often describe a sense of " smelling a Calvinist a mile away " because the general attitude, even though it may not be recognized, is one of disrespect and arrogance toward others who have different theological points of view. The saddest irony is that MacArthur, and others, mistakingly believe that THEY are the one's fighting off the heretics. It's amazing and very sad to watch.
@@gregmahler9506 Lastly, Calvinism is intuitively wrong. As it says in Scripture: " GOD placed eternity in man's heart." Not Some - but ALL.
Calvinism forces people to have to go through illogical hoops and confounding philosophies, if they survive this process and come to accept it as true - deep down there is a Great Discomfort which is survivable is ignored or rationalized some how.
LOVE is very rarely brought up in Reformation Theology, a clear sign that something is wrong.
Simplex sigillum veri
Simplicity is the sign of Truth
You just might want to read "The Knowledge of the Holy," by Tozer. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, who was a well-known Calvinist pastor, once met Tozer in person, and said afterwards, "Ever since I read a book by him I have felt that he is one of the very few great prophetic voices in the Church today, and in the modern world . . . . His books have whetted my appetite, but having heard him now actually in the flesh I see that even his books do not do him full justice" (Iain Murray's biography of Lloyd-Jones, vol. II, p. 285). What both Tozer and Lloyd-Jones had in common was an emphasis on experiential Christianity. The difference between them is that while Lloyd-Jones looked back to the Puritans, Tozer tended to look back to medieval mystics.
The Bible's power to transform the individual relies upon translation to the experiential. It must correlate to the human experience. To the degree one's theology moves away from the experiential it moves away from scripture.
Do you mean tozer went against experiential Christianity or was for it. I'm genuinely curious. And if he's for it then is that a negative or positive
@@SalvusGratiumFidem Tozer was all about experiential Christianity. He was definitely in favor of it.
For Calvinists and other cessationists, faith is all theory or an intellectual battle and never actually put into action in the real world. You end up with psychological tricks, dissociation, and delusion misinterpreted as answered prayers or reliance on God and it's not. It's all works of the flesh because they don't comprehend faith. These people don't even know how to pray in faith. They are so worldy in their understanding--their faith is the blind faith of the world and their hope is wishful thinking with implied doubt. And they sum up their fancy prayers with "if it is your will, God". That's not a prayer of faith--it's you don't know God's will for that situation then you literally cannot be praying in faith. If it is a situation where you don't know how or what to pray for then pray in the Spirit/in tongues as Paul instructs. There's been several times when my English prayers were not effectual for healing, and I became frustrated because I had the faith but it didn't work. So I humbled myself and the Spirit told me to trust Him to pray, so I prayed in faith in tongues trusting that the Holy Spirit would pray the right thing andnmyself or others were miraculously, instantly healed.
I don't know how anyone who professes faith in Christ can't read the New Testament and not believe 100% that we are then supposed to go out and do what it says! It's through the lies of the devil perpetuated by faithless theologians and demonic doctrines that the power of Christ in the church has been so severely neutered.
We are the workers of the Harvest. We are the frontline soldiers for the Kingdom of Heaven bringing Heaven to earth. Faith requires accommodating action. You have to trust in God's promises to the point that you act on them rather than on your natural understanding. When you do--you WILL see miracles, and you will be so humbled to know it was God doing it and not of yourself.
I beg you all--just trust God for all His promises!!!!!
@@tannerfrancisco8759 its highly unfair to label all Calvinists as rejecting experiential Christianity and only focusing on the intellectual.
Lucas was playing Minecraft for most of this clip 😆
Even though making an appeal to mystery doesn't act as a sufficient argument against Calvinism on its own, I still feel it's appropriate to acknowledge that there is still a mystery there concerning predestination/election none the less. For some reason, it almost feels prideful to completely disregard an element of mystery, simply because we are finite beings trying to comprehend an infinite God. I know Paul describes the fact of the church is the "bride of Christ" as being a profound mystery (probably for the best not to attempt to solve that one). It's therefore reasonable to suppose that there are still further mysteries concerning doctrine that yet remain mysterious to us.
CalvinISM is another gospel, let them be accursed
Wow, thank you
Leighton, read Hermann Bavink's "Reformed Dogmatics. Vol. 4" pg. 262 where he admits that the ancient Greek exposition of Romans 7, to which the Reformed tradition of his day agrees, speak of an unregenerate man rather than the struggle in progressive sanctification. Banvinck agrees with Wernle's statement that, "Paulinism is rendered useless to us." In other words, he admits that Reformed Dogmatics cannot be reconciled with Paul's Gospel.
Do you agree with his assessment that the romans 7 was about an unregenerate man?
Happy you made it out of Calvinism. Friends of mind who were atheists. Are now Calvinist. They get some correct. But they don’t really believe Jesus paid the price.
When I began to study the cults that is what I tried to do so as to understand what they believed. But also diving into the scriptures to see if that was so or not. Finding the "not true" became easier and easier once I could recognize the twist.
The noblest and most truthful thing to do is to succumb to God's spirit to find the 'not true' in our own thinking, interpretation, and mindset.
@@sishrac I agree, however people who believe the lie also have a quasi/partial truth added to it that must be explained to them.
@@sishrac I agree, however people who believe a lie often have a quasi/ partial truth mixed with it which often must be explained to them.
I have read many of R.C. Sproul's books and benefited from him much. However, every time he would venture off into Calvinism, I would have to endure the hardship. Too bad, but true.
JR,....What the apostate church refers to as "Calvinism" is the actual gospel of the Bible. Anything other than this is another gospel and is the gospel of the accursed. This is why the entire church is apostate, it is filled with the unsaved. Those who have been deceived by the Godless worlds false manmade freewill gospel. The gospel of the accursed.
@@elizabethbennet2859 ,.....Are you saying that Jesus offers rest and peace to everyone and it is up to them to accept/receive it?
@@elizabethbennet2859 ,...No need to be sorry. I know you were addressing someone else but I wanted to ask you that question as it appears that you may not correctly understand the real gospel.
Most people have been deceived by the apostate church to think that Jesus died for everyone and it is just up to them to accept it.
@@hewhohasearstohearlethimhe4284 Your opinion is very strong, and you seem very convinced of it. However, I have a question for you: if you are wrong, would you like to know it ? Or you would just ignore the comment/question of someone who tells you that you might be wrong ? First of all, you have the same approach a cult member would have: "if you are not one of us, you are an apostate". Not a church/religious group is the source of salvation, but God - who through the Bible - calls people to repentance and faith in Jesus. Second, have you ever considered the logical implications of what you call "the actual gospel of the Bible" ? Do you live in accordance with those logical implications ? Beware of false presuppositions. If you are not living up in real life to the least precept of your belief system, you are not living by faith. You simply make up a belief system, which you escape when it does not fit reality any more.
As for me, I do not care if you judge me or not (that I am an apostate). I know who I was (atheist, Nazi, yoga adept) and who I am now (a child of God). I came to know Jesus Christ as my Lord more than 30 years ago through the reading the New Testament. A friend of mine, born again Christian, did not know how to witness to me after the death of my father (she expected me to reject her message). So, she just told me: "God loves you, pray and you will see that He will answer your prayers", then she gave me the New Testament and encouraged me to read it. I was broken enough to be open to read the NT. A few years ago I would have slapped her in the face with the NT, but God did a work in my heart to prepare me for this moment. So, I was open. I started reading the NT and was shocked: page after page I received the answer to the tones of questions that burdened me during those years of darkness. One of them was: "if evolution explains everything and life ends at death, then why do I have free will ?" Even if I did not believe there is an absolute moral standard, I was aware that free will is real: I could not escape it, nor the moral responsibility attached to it. I just hated life because I could not find the answer to my questions. But when I read the NT, God gave me all the answers. I heard and understood Jesus' calling to repentance and faith in Him, and decided to follow Him. I realized that what He offers is what I have been searching all my life, but in wrong places. It was God Himself through the Bible (and not a church) who converted me. I am so gratefull for that.
To put my faith at test, God allowed a strong persecution in my life from the very beginning: my mother (who was an Orthodox believer) accused me of getting involved in a cult (this is how she called the Baptist church I was attending). She also used ot say "if you are not one of us, you are an apostate". She also thought that she enters the heaven based on the church she belongs to, not based on repentance, faith and being born again. I now thank God for the persecution He allowed in my life: it helped draw near to God and study the Bible to make sure what I believe is not man-made, but the word of God.
At some point after becoming a Christian, some friends of mine tried to preach me the "Calvinist" gospel. But I was not convinced because I could not find enough evidence in the Bible that what they say is correct. One of the things that I understood from Bible was that if God is love and He wants us to love Him (and not just obey Him by duty), then it has to be free will, because love turns on free will. I do believe in a God who is who He says He is = holy and just, but also loving and merciful to all mankind, extending his extravagant love to any sinner. I was that horrible sinner and He came after me and gave me opportunities to open up, to see the truth, to repent, to accept His offer of salvation and love Him in return. I know for a sure thing (from the Bible) that God does this for anyone, because He loves us all equally and Jesus died for all unworthy sinners equally. God gave us free will and He expects us to use it wisely = accept His offer. It is not that I choose God (what you call "false manmade freewill gospel"), but rather that I answer His call to accept His offer of salvation. He offers the salvation to anyone (not only to the "elect"), but people have to respond, repent, accept, and give up everything to follow Him. This is how He created us: able to make decisions and be responsible for them. I see this all over in the Bible, this makes a lot of sense. I can honestly live in accordance with what the Bible teaches. There were also moments in my life when I sinned by resisting God's will, by choosing rather the easy (worldly) way. But God came after me, He disciplined me and brought me to repentance. Then, motivated by His love and care for me, I was ready to follow His will and pay the price. In the meantime I learned that His will is the better and I no longer resist Him (so much or so often) when His will seems too difficult. I have a loving relationship with my Father. A relationship without free will is simply impossible.
Do you have a loving relationship with God, or with your belief system ?
@@andrab1287 ,...I have spoken the truth and am not in error as you suppose. Actual Christianity is a cult. It is a small group of people that all believe and understand the same. Those who do not belong to Jesus are apostate, that is the fact.
No, we do not have freewill, absolutely not. that 100% false manmade idea only comes from the apostate church not the Bible. God does not love everyone, he only loves the few who are his chosen ones, his elect.
The fact is, everything you believe is manmade and does not come from the Bible but from the apostate church. What you refer to as Calvinism is the actual gospel of the Bible. Your manmade freewill gospel is a fraud and is the false gospel of the accursed. Of those who do not belong to Jesus but who belong to the Godless world.
God did not come after you, the apostate church (the false prophet) did and has totally deceived you just as it has everyone else. No one accepts God/Jesus, nor chooses him, nor decides to become a Christian. That is a conn the apostate church uses to snare its victims.
Yes, salvation is offered to all, but all (every single person) has rejected it. There is not a single person who has ever lived who has accepted Gods salvation. There are only those like you who have been deceived into thinking they can and have. If anyone could have accepted Gods salvation, then Jesus would have never come. He only came because there was absolutely no one that could or would ever accept Gods salvation.
You do not have a relationship with God, you only have a relationship with yourself. You, like all those snared into all the 100% apostate churches are self deluded and self deceived. You do not have freewill, you have only been deceived into thinking you do so you can be your own god and save yourself. The apostate churches 100% false manmade freewill gospel is a gospel where you all save yourselves by your wills and your works. It is all 100% dependent on you and what you do. Without your action (work) you would not be saved, it all hinges on you and not on God.
Your gospel is an "another" gospel the false gospel of the accursed, of the spiritually dead and blind, of the vessels of wrath and the brute beasts made for destruction. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!
Tozer's books are still great.
I appreciate your videos.
The tulip model is where the wheels leave the bus insofaras calvinism goes...
Thank you
I wish you'd said more about Tozer
No specific passages of scripture given, just rhetoric.
As Christians, we must stick with what the bible says and only what the bible says.
I love Tozer and C.S. Lewis!
Tozer is the devil the bible speaks of
@@isaiah345-6 😂 Have you ever read any of his books?
RK,....tozer was not a Christian, and counterfeit christians like him love him and all the other apostate churches false teachers.
@@hewhohasearstohearlethimhe4284 😂 you Calvinists are always so charitable, kind and reasonable. It’s a wonder more people don’t embrace your theology! Keep on with it. I’m sure you draw many to the faith with your winsome attitude! 😉
@@kraffty1 ,...The "Calvinists" that you revile are the actual Christians. And yes, the actual truth of the Bible that "Calvinists" preach is charitable, kind, reasonable, full of love and mercy. If you were not spiritually dead and blind you would understand this.
To the spiritually dead and blind, those outside of the kingdom of God, truth is lies, and love is hate. You see everything to opposite of what it actually is. You are not of the truth, you are of the Godless world. The actual truth of Gods word offends you. The actual gospel "Calvinism" offends you. You only want, love, and can understand lies and deception.
Just as your blind, lost, and deceived mothers and only wanted barabbas, so too all you freewillers only want barrabas (the fake jesus and the fake christianity) of the Godless world.
Also, it must be understood when I refer to "Calvinism" this is only a reference to the correct gospel that Calvin understood. It has nothing to do with the denomination of Calvinism or with anything else Calvin believed or taught.
"Calvinism" is just a reference to the Bibles actual gospel that Calvin gets the credit for putting forth. It is not Calvinism, but just the actual gospel of the Bible. Anything other than the Bibles gospel that the apostate church calls "Calvinism" is another gospel and is the false manmade gospel of the accursed and of the spiritually dead and blind.
You have been deceived. Repent!
Thanks for this!
I don't know how you can know and understand what people like John Piper believes and teaches and believe he's not a false teacher who isn't saved.
It is the day we live in. People are ok with murdering their babies in abortion. They call sodomy normal, they hate god.
John Piper says God directs the abuse of children forcing people to commit these acts. John Piper says God invented the death camps of the Nazi party and forced people to commit these crimes. yet they hold John Piper up as a great teacher and man of God.
here is no hope in the factory corporation churches and seminaries. They all accept it.
John Piper " God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that HE HIMSELF BRINGS ABOUT THESE EVIL aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).
This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem-God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child . . .
Truth in love
Saved and confused is possible, but I don't think that anyone that understands the Bible should promote him at all. You don't need confused people for the crumbs that they get right, sound teachers have the same goods.
So, is there any sort of resource or way of locating a “Provisionistic” local church group?
The fruit of the spirit is the sign of good tree theology.
I’m sure debates serve a purpose. I for one, have yet to see a convert following a debate. It’s more like a football game, both sides cheer on the home team.
The difference from a football game?
Both sides declare they were victorious. 🤷♂️
It’s just an analogy, I realize the Word Is not a game….
The purpose of public debates isn't usually for one person debating to change the mind of the person they're debating, but rather it's an attempt to bring clarity to a topic for the people who watch the debate. I watched many debates between various Christians and atheists; I doubt many of the atheists who were debating were convinced of Christianity but I sure was.
@LawlessNate Praise God for that.
I think the possible reason that the word "debate" occurs once in the N.T., in Romans 1, listed with a bunch of bad stuff, is that often the debaters are not interested in good faith communication but winning, by straw man and dishonest misrepresentation if need be.
I get the most out of debates when I don't have a horse in the race, so to speak; or if I don't like the presenter I agree with, but do like the presenter I disagree with.
WHO'S THE BEST LIAR COMPETITION
(Romans 3:1-2) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto THEM were committed the ORACLES(word) of God
(Amos 2:11) And I raised up of YOUR SONS for PROPHETS, and of YOUR young men for Nazarites. Is it not even thus, O ye CHILDREN OF ISRAEL? saith the Lord
(Amos 3:7) Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his SERVANTS the prophets
(Deuteronomy 29:29) The SECRET things belong unto the Lord OUR God: but those things which are revealed belong UNTO US and to OUR children FOREVER
(Psalm 147:19-20) He sheweth his WORD(bible) unto Jacob, his statutes and his JUDGMENTS(law) unto ISRAEL he hath NOT DEALT so with ANY NATION: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord
Now it makes sense
The truth no matter the cost
I m reading the same book now for our men's Bible study. I see God differently now.
But brother (and I've asked several times before to no avail), WHEN was this in your life...where were you if you served in any capacity in a church...how LONG were you a pastor/assoc pastor/etc as a Calvinist, so on & so forth.
God the Holy Spirit is the infallable teacher!
For those that are interested the Baptist board is still up and running.
I've looked in there a few times. There's a mix of Reformed and non-Reformed (like Baptists themselves, of which I'm one).
@@ddr5138
John the Baptist never baptized heathen obviously your not a Baptist "acts 13:24"
@@isaiah345-6 OK...
The Wayback Machine may have a few copies of that board 🙂.
How can we ask a question to Prof. Flowers? Or Soteriology101
Why would you ask a question of a guy with no Biblical understanding?
Dr. Leighton, could you please do a video explaining how a Provisionist would approach interpreting 1 Thessalonians? Particularly, how one should understand 1:4 and how that may (or may not) affect the view that then should be adopted in 3:1-5. The Calvinist argues 1:4 is a proof of unconditional election and then provides some answers around 3:1-5 and how it does not contradict unconditional election. The Arminian argues that 1:4 is proof of conditional election and then shows how 3:1-5 proves one can fall away from the faith. However, if most Provisionists believe in "eternal security" (in the way you've described in many of your videos), it appears difficult to harmonize eternal security with the non-calvinist interpretation of 1:4. I hope I can be as clear about this as possible: I am not trying to antagonize! I am genuinely curious and desirous to learn about that. 1 Thess 1:4 is another common go-to in support of Unconditional Election. Or if you have any resources, perhaps even by Dr. David Allen, would be immensely appreciated. Thank you!
Hello Aaron. One of the things I saw from your question is that I think that last part of chapter 3 should be looked at too:
“Now may our God and Father *himself* , and our Lord Jesus, direct our way to you, and may the Lord *make you* increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you, so that *he may establish* your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.”
1 Thessalonians 3:11-13 ESV
Notice how Paul attributes everything to God here. Paul getting to them, he asked God himself to direct. Increasing in love, Paul attributes to God. Establishing of blameless hearts, Paul attributes to God.
My point in saying this is that in all these questions, the key player and mover and establisher is God himself. It isn’t the human being.
However Paul was genuinely concerned that “the tempter” may have come in and upset some of their faith because of the afflictions Paul himself was suffering. But it didn’t, evidently, it was just a fear Paul expressed. What it would have been like back then to only be able to communicate via messengers or letters! I could imagine there being a lot of worry about things falling apart in your absence and Paul was greatly joyed to see that their faith continued to be strong, attributing that to God!
I really think what Paul says to them in his second letter here is mind boggling:
“But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ESV
Here Paul goes further and says God “chose you as the firstfruits *to be saved* “ ultimately tying God’s choice to salvation itself. To me this is the clearest passage in the entire Bible to do this.
1 Thessalonians explains in the rest of the chapter how the church in Thessalonica were elect. They were the model church amongst all the churches of the day back then. That's the service they provided to the body of Christ back then and throughout the church age. God bless!! :)
Ironically, Tozer had the opposite effect on my theological development. I was drawn to his majestic and transcendent views of God. That helped me appreciate Calvinist theology all the more.
Similarly, as I became more calvinist after reading the scriptures, I was drawn not only to Sproul and the Puritans, but to Tozer himself.
What book by Arnenius do you recommend. Never read him.
I recently started looking into predestination and lean toward that side. But what I experience as the problem with both sides is that the problems arise as soon as anyone on both sides become arrogant. Calvinists thinking that they are somehow special but also arminians thinking they can save themselves. So im not all the way on either side
My big concern with Calvinists is that so many seem to be Calvinists first and Christians second.
Tozer once described himself as a Calvinist when he prays and an Arminian when he preaches.
So his prayers are pointless and he simply does it for obedience sake.
@@HaydenBray-ns5rx Sorry, but you're missing the the point of that statement. It's not about determinism.
@DerKirchenhocker don’t be sorry.
@@HaydenBray-ns5rx Ok. Thanks for your concern.
Arminius was a Calvinist, that objected to certain Calvinist teaching.
How better off we would be if we could debate beliefs, without labels (Calvinism, arminianism) placed on the opponent.
Why? Because there are assumptions the audience will hold when hearing pelagianism, calvinism or arminianism.
Debate the doctrine teaching of the other side using scripture as support for the debater's doctrine position.
It’s so interesting to me how people will take the word Calvinist and have feelings and personal meanings and definitions attached to it and some people even make it sound like it’s a cult. there’s people out there that hear the word Christian and it puts a horrible taste in their mind because of their personal experiences and traumas that they’ve dealt with other Christians. So titles don’t matter. I think it just matters who we worship and glorify and how we love others in this world.
It is sad.
The reason Calvinism (at least in America) can be kinda cult-like is they live in their bubble. They read Piper and the like, they go to Calvinistic churches, only watch Calvinistic sermons, etc. and when somebody big like Piper denounces somebody, everyone else falls in line. Nobody criticizes the big guys. There’s a lot of groupthink going on.
Comparatively, Arminians tend to be very nonchalant about theology, if you get them to talk about it (Methodists as an example very rarely talk theology despite a rich tradition). We are more focused on the practice and simple message of the Gospel vs. head knowledge.
I as an Arminian attend a church which is majority Calvinist, I’ve watched sermons by TULIP pastors, and I currently give to a Calvinist college ministry because one of my friends from India is in that group. Calvinism imo is bad theology (which makes God a monster), but God saves us in spite of bad theology, not because we have the right theology.
John Wesley (who was super salty about Calvinism) nonetheless delivered the sermon at the funeral of his friend George Whitfield, who was one of the most famous Calvinists ever. We should take a lesson from this on unity.
how about reference Tozer's argument 10 min. what you think ?
IMHO, the problem is that we are fish in the sea and we don't know how to think as land animals. We swim in time and forget there was a time when there was no time. God exists outside of time. We don't ponder that enough.
Which book by Dr Tozer?
Leighton Flowers, I can't wait until you get into Patristics and Canonics. When you discover Sts. John Chrysostom, Irenaeus, and Cassian, your world will change. You will start thinking that Jacob Arminius didn't go far enough. I look forward to seeing the mature expression of your faith.
How can any Bible student see the TULIP - see the Limited atonement, and not immediately denounce calvanism?
They throw that one out and call themselves 4 point Calvinist.
You're a better theologian now sir. Salute. 👍☝️
Would have been good to tell listeners the points/subjects that made him change his mind abt Calvinism.
I wonder
How many ppl got into calvinism based on what someone told them.
How many DONT pray to God for guidance and use to Word arrive at their conclusions (emphasis on prayer)
Those who focus on their own intellect are missing the mark of Christianity.
And debates are just exercises in self-aggrandizement and self-promotion.
Imagine making your absurd statement to Jesus, a great intellect and debater.
Was Jesus's purpose to bring truth or self-agrandizement?
We humans were created by God with a brain, with emotions, and with a soul.
@@sheilasmith7779 You speak as if Jesus was a mere mortal. He did not debate. He spoke with authority...so much so, that the Pharisees of His day, hated Him for it.
@@dc-wp8oc Where is the " mere human," in my statement?
Where is the mere intellect of humans in my statement?
Jesus displayed both human characteristics ( like reasoning) and divine characteristics like performing miracles.
With your fear of misused intellect, which can surely happen, keep the following in mind: "Come, let us reason together."
The meaning of the WORD.
"And the Word was made flesh."
WORD in Greek is Logos, and logos means, reason.
Do humans place too much value on intellect? Yes
Do humans place too little value on intellect? Yes
Do humans place too much emphasis on emotions? Yes.
Do humans place too much and too little emphasis on experience? Yes.
But your statements are an inaccurate representation of the reality of human nature. Your perspective is limited and incomplete.
The truth is, the glass is half full, and the glass is half empty.....both are true at the same time.
Perspective, d c, perspective.
@@dc-wp8oc Do you think the Paracees would have feared Jesus's
" authority," if Jesus made illogical, silky arguments?
They feared that His teachings would be persuasive, drawing jews away from Pharacee influence....which would mean for them a loss of revenue, personal wealth.....and loss of their benefits from their Roman rulers, compared to the ordinary Jewish citizen.
Your simplistic thinking causes you to miss the forest for the trees.
@@dc-wp8oc
(Romans 3:1-2) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto THEM were committed the ORACLES(word) of God
(Amos 2:11) And I raised up of YOUR SONS for PROPHETS, and of YOUR young men for Nazarites. Is it not even thus, O ye CHILDREN OF ISRAEL? saith the Lord
(Amos 3:7) Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his SERVANTS the prophets
(Deuteronomy 29:29) The SECRET things belong unto the Lord OUR God: but those things which are revealed belong UNTO US and to OUR children FOREVER
(Psalm 147:19-20) He sheweth his WORD(bible) unto Jacob, his statutes and his JUDGMENTS(law) unto ISRAEL he hath NOT DEALT so with ANY NATION: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord
☝️Debates between heathen are simply glorified who's the best liar contests
What do people do with all these passages about God's sovereignty, man's inability, Jesus guaranteeing salvation for some, not for other's, just dismiss them?
I've noticed that Calvin started cessationism, totally ignoring scriptures. Seems to also ignore the Fruit of the Spirit. Both not good signs.
Is it parts of Calvinism that you do not affirm? Or is it the “camp” of Calvinists that you don’t affirm? If so, what parts? I didn’t really pick up on what parts you thought were wrong, or against scripture, just that you didn’t like the people’s responses. I’d like to hear your take and research on the issue, and if it’s a particular doctrine within the Calvinistic system, or if it’s all wrong, and why.
GS,...What religious people call Calvinism is the actual gospel of the Bible, and this guy is against the gospel of the Bible and sells the false gospel of the Godless world (the beast). He, like those outside of the kingdom of God do not like any Biblical truth, they only want and love lies and deception.
@@hewhohasearstohearlethimhe4284 There is no "Gospel" or "Good News" in Calvinism.
If you are predestined from eternity past to be a Christian then you were never rescued from anything.
Why?
Because you were never in any danger.
There is no "Good News" just passage of time.
@@ericfisher1360 ,...Well, first off, if you were not still spiritually dead and blind you would know and understand that it is the real gospel "Calvinism" that is the good news. Your false manmade freewill gospel is not good news, it is a false manmade gospel of works.
Your freewill gospel is only fake good news to those deceived by it. It is not in reality good news. It is a gospel that leads to the lake of fire. That is not good news.
All mankind is headed for eternal damnation. No one can save themselves as your 100% fake freewill gospel has deceived you to believe. The good news (gospel) is, God chose to save/redeem a few for his good pleasure. This is only good news to these few. But it is good news.
Since the rest of the Godless world were not chosen by God but are vessels of wrath made for destruction, they have created their own gospel, the freewill gospel, where anyone can become saved, and where you all save yourselves based on your wills and your works.
You have taken God out and put yourselves in the place of God. You have tried to take Gods kingdom by force and have tried to enter in some other way. Jesus called you all thieves and robbers, and the Bible calls you brute beasts made for destruction and vessels of wrath.
"Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2 Thessalonians 2:4 KJV
"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." Matthew 11:12 KJV
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber." John 10:1 KJV
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" 2 Peter 2:12 KJV
"But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves." Jude 1:10 KJV
"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:" Romans 9:22 KJV
I've read Tozier. Give an example. This is just a dancing lesson.
Mr flowers please comment on Andy Stanley. And his position biblical authority.
5:47
Yes, A.W. Tozer would influence one to leave Calvinism, but our theology should come from the scriptures-
Tozer, like the guys in this video was not a Christian. They are all the sellers of the Godless worlds false gospel.
Wasn't Towzer a lordship salvation guy?
Or do you believe perseverance of the saints?
Okay. From the video and comments I think we can arrive at a conclusion about Calvinism, and reformed theology: The problem is not the theology per se, but it’s about the character of the expositor. Since AW was greatly respected by Martin Lloyd - Jones, and both pursued holiness and believed strongly that you must be a pursuer of holiness to enter the gates of heaven, this pursuit should change your character to be gracious and understand other people who may see a little differently. It’s
close to the same thing between Wesley and Whitefield. Wesley would never have countenanced what his Wesleyan descendants had done. I’m not really a Calvinist because I don’t buy into the “pop - Calvinism“ that it has become. People don’t realize that you cannot wield these doctrines in a slapdash or insulting way. So in my estimation, it’s not the tool that is the problem it’s the mechanic wielding it
No, the theology is awful and riddled with Laodicean backslidden private interpretation. Why glean from the muck when you can drink from the waters of life?
Try perverting algebra the same way and see if you can pass the test.
@@JamesBrown-fd1nv prove the Laodicean nature of it
LF, very good material once again. However, a "How to leave the JW's" ministry I know recommends distancing yourself from their propaganda & teachers for years if necessary, so as to not get sucked back in or think a JW booklet on prayer is harmless. Knowing the Aaron Rodgers' & Derek Webb's that have walked away or deconstructed their beliefs. I don't understand giving props to leading Calvinists? Especially the ones you have sighted as having cognitive dissonance regarding scripture vs his Institutes???
I don't think it's quite fair to put jw and Calvinists in the same box. To "give props" to some leading Calvinists that you have done disagreements with is just good ecumenism.
@@4jgarner Didn't put them in same box.
@@4jgarner "Good ecumenism" is an oxymoron.
Repent!
@@leenieledejo6849 repent of fellowshipping with people who have disagreements with me on things that are not primary? Why? Can you give me some scripture that would tell me to repent of ecumenism?
@@4jgarnerBecause it is calling God a liar, anyone with basic sense can learn what the Bible teaches by studying like it says. Ecumenical Christians are the bane of sound doctrine. Did you ever read the New Testament warnings about this?
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Basic logic and the fact that God inspired this into the Scriptures is enough to have some stones and take a stand. Not everyone is going to be your friend, so gird up your loins and get in the fight.
Does anyone remember there is a list of non Calvinist churches?? Seems like I remember him saying something like that.
CC,....So, you are looking for a list of churches to avoid?
And oh no!!!😱 Tozer didn’t have a cemetery degree!
A w pink helped me with calvinism!
Wasn't A.W. Tozer an Arminian? I'm turned off by Tozer anyways because of his private life. It makes me doubt he was "a man of God."
You still hold onto Sproul tapes, because maybe subconsciously you were hoping one of you would eventually align theologically with the other. With Sproul's passing, you alone are left with that advantage 😉
I'm Sorry I really just don't get it , You Mr Flowers have demonstrated in your videos without any doubt that the god of Calvinism is a different god period, You have shown this with carful reading of scripture,
And more then that you show how much they contradict themselves speak out off both sides of their mouth which by def is dishonesty
So how in the the world can you speak of RC Sproul Piper MacArthur as anything other then false teachers and even say you respect them???
Personally not a fan of Piper because both his Calvinism and his Christian Hedonism.
if calvinists are wrong but are still our brothers or free will is wrong and we are still all brothers then why the debates ?
Good question. I guess maybe because even believers can fall prey to pride and stubbornness. We desperately desire to “be right” and to be in control, and sometimes we cloak that desire in the guise of pursuing correct doctrine. And while there’s nothing wrong with wanting to align our faith with clean and accurate doctrine (in fact, we should), theological wrangling can become an idol and at the end of the day, it’s not as effective for edification as we like to think it is.
Anyway, it’s probably easier to study and debate theology than it is to humbly submit to Christ every day and admit to Him our spiritual poverty so that, like little children, we are always dependent on Him.
We like to think we are beyond the “poor in Spirit” bit. lol.
The modern American church could use a thorough dose of 1 Corinthians 13. The whole chapter.
I know I could!
Genesis 6:11
The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
Ezekiel Chapter 25
15Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the Philistines have dealt by revenge, and have taken vengeance with a despiteful heart, to destroy it for the old hatred;
16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will stretch out mine hand upon the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethims, and destroy the remnant of the sea coast.
17And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them.
Dr Flowers I highly respect you but not John Piper. He had no discernment regarding the c19 injection & misled many.
Piper is a hippie Democrat, what would you expect?
DW: I totally agree. When I really came to understand the underlying foundation of Calvinist doctrine - and then listen to John Piper and R.C. Sproul - all I am hearing is constant stream of Calvinist DOUBLE-SPEAK which Calvinist recite to themselves in order to make the belief system palatable. A large percentage of Calvinist DOUBLE-SPEAK is simply the Calvinist lying to himself for emotional reasons. Why anyone would consider Calvinist DOUBLE-SPEAK artists as providing any value to a serious follower of Jesus Christ - is mind boggling.
Some of what Piper says (see example below) is horrifying.
As if God is thinking "oh well, the times are harsh so I can excuse a little murder" (!!!)
Leighton needs to read "What Love is this", THE critique of Calvinism by the late Dave Hunt which is filled with the words of Calvin himself and his followers.
I don't know HOW Leighton can keep listening to them. He needs to heed the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:29-30.
"Fifteen women were burned at the stake and there were some cruelties...
Calvin called for a swift execution (of Servetus) instead of burning, but he was burned at the stake in 1553.
It's not clear that most of us, given that milieu, would not have acted similarly under the circumstances....the times were harsh...and had a contaminating effect on everyone.
There was in the life of Calvin a grand God-centredness, Bible allegiance and iron constancy." (The Legacy of Sovereign Joy: God's triumphant grace in the lives of Augustine, Luther and Calvin - John Piper)
@@leenieledejo6849 DW: Good comments! It is good to understand - Calvinism entails a "Good-Evil" DUALISM which is derived from Augustine who spent a decade of his life in a Christian Gnostic sect - and then transitioned into NeoPlatonism which was prevalent during the early phase of the Catholic church.
The Gnostic and the NeoPlatonic systems both shared two characteristics unique to Calvinism - which are Determinism and a "Good-Evil" DUALISM - where "Good" and "Evil" are co-necessary, co-complimentary, and co-equal.
Augustine
-quote
And because this orderly arrangement maintains the *HARMONY OF THE UNIVERSE* by this very contrast, it comes about that *EVIL THINGS MUST NEED BE* In this way, the beauty of all things is in a manner configured, as it were, from antitheses, that is, from opposites: this is pleasing to us even in discourse”. (ord 1.7.19)
SInce Calvinism entails "Good-Evil" DUALISM - many things appear within it - in the form of "Good-Evil" pairs.
For example - we have a THEOS who is the divine potter of Roman's 9 - who conceives of every individual he will create - and the MANY he creates/designs specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for his good pleasure.
Ministries like Piper and Macarthur would loose a large percentage of their audience if they did not obfuscate the *DIVINE EVIL* part of Calvinism's DUALISTIC doctrine.
The reason why Calvinists label the doctrine a "doctrine of grace" is because they are trying to obfuscate its EVIL side.
So in Calvinism - the term "Grace" must be redefined to include creating/designing the vast majority of the human population specifically for eternal torment - for a god's good pleasure.
I wonder what the heros of the faith beleieved? Wycliffe, Hus, luther, tyndale, bunyan, spurgeon?
Luther tortured people who disagreed and Bunyan tortured himself for years and almost left the Lord as he assumed his struggles with sin must mean he was predestined to hell.
Sorry I don't care for books from guys who preach a false gospel. The one thing we need to get right so the Calvinists gospel is either true or false. If its false (and it is) what does scripture teach about preaching a false gospel?
Wonder why people could not figuer out the reality that there is no such thing as Tozer-ism, and anyone else standing in the last 500 years in Christian world, but Calvinism. It is by no accident, but something you CAN"T BELIEVE, which is the sovereignty of God. Or, in some people's obssesion, the predestination.
If Calvinism is true and people are damned to hell, then why would there be a great while throne of judgment? No reason to judge someone who had no choice. They will be judged “according to their works.” Their works is the problem because they did not accept the work of Jesus on the cross.
I am more along the lines of... Calviminianism. LOL I feel the truth lies somewhere between the two debates. Denominations were built on hyper-emphasizing certain scriptures to prove certain points while shying away from scriptures that would disprove concrete conclusions. That's why no denomination represents 100% accurate theology. But the Lord understands his children's obsessive need to be right, even though they are wrong. The real sin is demonizing Christians who, although they agree on the core aspects of the faith, disagree on secondary issues. Of that the Lord is quite intolerant and we should tread carefully when disagreeing with our eternal family.
I am not a fan of John Piper and I suspect that you may have a different response to him and his teaching going forward than you had in the old days.