Dr. Flowers, I appreciate your videos. How would you reply to this comment that I have been told. Proverbs 16:33 "We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall." They say this points to God's determinism of even "nonchalantly" throwing dice.
Stoicism started being baptized into Christianity all the way back with Justin Martyr, and most heavily by Clement of Alexandria. This was the norm among the orthodox for 200 years before Augustine.
Not if the information his premise is completely wrong. The Epistle of Clement, around AD 100, has the same deterministic reading of and explanation of Scripture. One sample: "By the word of his power he made all things ; and by his word he is able to destroy them. Who shall say unto him, What hast thou done ? or who shall resist the power of his might'? He hath done all things when he pleased, and as he pleased ; and nothing shall pass away of all that hath been determined by him."
@@paulkinslow385John Calvin: "Augustine is so much at one with me that, if I wished to write a confession of my faith, it would abundantly satisfy me to quote wholesale from his writings."
@brianfamilar9800 I just don't understand how it's illogical to assume that Augustine couldn't have possibly read the bible through the lense of his previous gnosticism....in fact, isn't that the problem with the church today, reading thr scriptures from a Western mindset? If we can read the bible from the wrong lense than so could Augustine. He was a mortal man.
I imagine it like this: Two nations at war. A warship is sunk and 1000 sailors are slowly drowning. An enemy ship shows up that has room to carry all 1000. The Calvinist version of the captain would randomly select 10 to forcibly drag from the water, then brainwash them to love him and worship him and his benevolence. My God will throw out 1000 ropes and beg them to grab the rope to be saved and carried to his homeland for healing. Most will reject the ropes and deliberately drown rather than submit to their enemy. But some will choose life and freedom, those are the ones who are saved.
@@dfischer5878You’re a sinner like the rest of us. How do you think you got saved? Did God force you into His salvation? No, you freely chose it. That’s why it’s called a free gift. God can’t force a free gift onto you.
@@katierucker2870actually I wasn’t even looking to same God reached me randomly on a for you page on tik tok when I haven’t looked up anything Christian before and I spent my first year of being a Christian knowing Jesus found me as His lost sheep I didn’t go and look for Him. Secondly there is no such thing as a universal free choice of the Gospel because even if Gods grace was based on your free will of choosing to believe or reject the choice there has been billions of people who live there entire lives without even hearing the gospel once in there entire life since the death and resurrection of Lord Jesus. Also Jesus makes it explicitly clear that we can’t come to Him on our own without God first granting us to. “no man came come to Me unless the Father grants him” John 6:65. In context Jesus was speaking not to just Judas but also the other people who were unbelieving around Him meaning our ability to believe and come to Jesus is based first on the granting of God first. So there is total inability blatantly and explicitly in the scripture. and there’s blatant proof that God has to choose us first for use to come to Christ rather then God chooses us after we come to Christ.
Well put👍🏻 Calvinist hate when you clarify their actual system for them. Don’t forget, the 990 were slowly fed to the sharks to somehow bring glory to the enemy Calvinist captain. Then brought back to life and re-fed to the sharks 100 million billion times for his glory. That captain has pretty low self esteem 🤔
Good anaolgy. God has provided an escape from the judgment, our sinful lifestyle and the has lovingly provided a hand of peace to His enemies that is open to all who will humble themselves and become citizens of the heavenly kingdom.
The last 5 minutes of this interview alone makes watching the entire video a worthwhile episode in my opinion (as they all are). James White fits the mold of most Neo-Calvinist leaders today: arrogant, overtly intellectual, condescending, crass, and scripturally duplicitous. Calvinism is one of the greatest self-inflicted wounds the Church of Jesus Christ has ever received and it panders to younger generations who have been fed self-esteem movement, new age inspired education that puffs up the self over those deemed to be lesser than thou. Tragic.
@@ryleighloughty3307 my comment was targeted specifically at Calvinist leaders. I am not making a broad brush statement towards all calvinists, but rather pointing out the dangers such a soteriology poses to the gospel message that Jesus died for all and all are guilty of sin. Calvinism says that Jesus died for some, and if you’re not elected in eternity past you are damned and incapable of changing. That message puffs up pride and younger generations are not known for their humility but rather their arrogant ignorance. Lethal combination when mixed with a misinterpreted doctrine like Calvinism
@@fed_up_cowboy Okay. The notions of 'free will' and 'predestination' comfortably coexist. Furthermore, the notion that sinful human beings can contribute anything to our salvation is a worrying contradiction.
@@ryleighloughty3307Nobody claimed we "contribute" to our salvation. non-Calvinists claim we can either accept the grace of God or reject it. No work we accomplish on our own influences the mechanism of salvation one way or another.
@@brianfamilar9800 You mistakenly assumed that I care what the "elites" outside my circle think. They will know we are Christians by our love, so if that puts me outside your camp, that's quite alright with me.
Why am I always disappointed by James' consistent use of strawman caricatures and ad hominem? I find it hard to belive that's the level of scholarship that earned him a doctorate.
@@JamesBrown-fd1nv It's from an unaccredited online school called "Columbia Evangelical Seminary" (which has nothing to do with the Ivy League school Columbia University, though I suspect the online school chose the name in hopes that people would confuse the two).
I can't listen to James White. He is so deluded that I only last a couple minutes before "changing the channel" at this point. Kudos to Dr Leighton Flowers for his patience.
Literally none of the verses James White cited for the Calvinist belief in a meticulous divine decree mention such a decree at all. Pure eisegetical example.
“I can’t believe that!” said Alice. “Can’t you?” the Queen said in a pitying tone. “Try again: draw a long breath, and shut your eyes.” Alice laughed. “There’s no use trying,” she said, “one can’t believe impossible things.” “I dare say you haven’t had much practice,” said the Queen. “When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.” ― Lewis Carroll Dr White, being an EDUCATED man can do what Alice could not.
Love this episode. Calvinists know.....Grace can't be grace, love can't be love, sin can't be sin and a gift is not a gift without FREEwill. None have EVER explained otherwise. The're lives are lived that way, every day, except...... in relation to their god. That's the Truth
God constantly calls us to choose and to believe. God also separates the wicked from the just even in the Old Testament and that is based on their choice
Right? How do all of these people come to believe that people are punished for somebody else's choice? This is so unbiblical and nonsensical. This is where the cultic aspect of Calvinism shows.
Heres why White is highly unlikely to leave Calinism: Pride. White was taught his beliefs as a child. Then he attends seminary with same beliefs. Then he receives a doctorate, in theology. Then he bcomes a pastor, teaching his beliefs. Then he becomes a public minister, teaching both in front of christian audiences, and on the Internet. Then White, writes books, distributed world wide. Then he establishes a podcast defending calvinist beliefs. Then he debates, anti-calvinists, publically. So while my order of events may be incorrect, the events happened. White is invested in his beliefs; its his ministery career for 30-40 years or more. Keep in mind the significance of a "public," ministry career, compared to the ordinary, non public, church attending christian. So, to understand Whites continued behavior, one must understand the consequences White would suffer if he were to abandon his Calvinist beliefs, if he were to retract his beliefs. Im not excusing his choices, but presenting why I'm convinced he will never change course. Pride. Its a rare human, humble enough, to admit they are wrong....but particularly difficult for a "public," person. It's human fear of losing face, embarrassment, and loss of a career built on calvinist beliefs. I am not sugessting a change is impossible, but rather, highly unlikely.
James White is stuck in a bubble that he obviously can't see outside of anymore , if ever he ever could. He spits his presups out as if they're absolute proven facts and does it in such an annoying condescending manner .
@fantasia55 James White wishes he was Calvin I'm sure I think . Lol . People actually got jail time for not addressing Calvin as Master upon meeting him . He was a murderer and used GOD'S HOLY NAME to justify his evil sinful deeds
Reading the Book of Obadiah must be especially perplexing for a Calvanist. One would suppose they would have to literally change the words in such a way that it would support their theology . . .
After learning so much about Calvin's teaching and what the current reformed church teaches, I am convinced it is a cult. I followed McGaurther for a long time after being raised in an Armenian perspective. As I learned more and More about McGaurther and Sproul's teaching, the God that I loved and followed since I was 5 years old had begun to go away and seemed to be replaced by an evil unscriptural "god". My prayer life dwindld, why pray if God has decreed everything. My kids ministry seemed less important, after if they aren't elected why bother? I felt empty and confused. So many questions unanswered left up to mystery. As the Lord began to open the truth of the scriptures to me and the false teaching of TULIP, I have now realized these people do not worship the same God as written about in the Bible and even though they trust their form of "Jesus", it is not the same Jesus who died for the sins of the world, olny for the elect. This is no different than how Jehovah's witness and Mormons have a separate "Jesus" they have molded to their false doctrine. I understand we have friends and family who are Calvinists, but we shouldn't continue to encourage them as just being wrongly informed about certain scriptures and brothers in Christ. We need to boldly call them out and preach the truth in love, let them know that they are believing a false gospel and the need to be free from this cult. Repent and truly believe in the one true Jesus as written about in the Bible. -Whoever adds to HIS word will be accursed. I am now a Provisionist and Praise the Lord Jesus for helping me to understand the scriptures in context! Thank you Leighton for your ministry ❤
Why bother. Haha. God said so. That’s not good enough? You don’t save others. Or yourself. When I hear what you say - it’s called creating your own god.
Thank you for sharing!! My son is lost in Calvinism for years ! And to tell you the truth the evidence that his passion and prayer life seems forced and without purpose.. believing for the scales to come off! thanks again
@@mont9380 Calvinism isn’t false. False is not seeing its basis in Scripture. The entire Bible supports it clearly. If anything is forced - that’s a spiritual issue not related to Calvinism. Let me ask you - did you choose God to be saved or did God choose you?
Love this video. Great insight. Calvinist teaching is teaching from man's interpretation. They forget 2Peter 1:20-21. We should all test everything in light of God's word. Too many today forget Revelation 22:18-19. Jesus is my Glory and the Glory of all who BELIEVE. ❤
I have asked the question Dr. Wilson posits many time: Where in the Bible is "sovereignty" defined as "complete divine control of every event including the thoughts, desires and choices of every sentient being?" think they use the term sovereignty because it SOUNDS like it honors God who is a SOVEREIGN but it does not answer what KIND of sovereign He is nor does it describe HOW He has chosen to rule His creation. According to the dictionary DETERMINISM is defined [without Christianized language] as: " the doctrine that ALL EVENTS, [including human ACTION thought and desire], are determined by CAUSES EXTERNAL to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have NO FREE WILL and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions."
So James White basically believes that if you don’t believe in Calvinism then you have a secular mindset? So because I don’t believe God determines or decrees every sickness and disease in the world, then I must be worldly? That’s hilarious
Need observation but that's actually appeal to Authority, not no true Scotsman. The reason being, there's undeniable credentials that someone can achieve to be "true."
I would love a list (I'm sure it's a short one) of preachers, teachers that I can listen to that are NOT dispensationalist Calvinists.. WHO out there on UA-cam is teaching TRUTH without Calvinism??
Derek Prince, Carter Conlon, David Wilkerson, David Pawson, Tozer, T Austin Sparks, Watchman Nee, Wesley, Leonard Ravenhill, Michael Brown, Finney, to name just a few. You may not want to listen to them, of course, but that is your problem.
As for Southern Baptists, the prominent, now deceased preacher, Dr. Adrian Rogers, was a non-Calvinist. Re-broadcasts of his program, "Love Worth Finding," is still in distribution.
Where did Augustine’s meticulous providence originate? Was it divine revelation? I doubt it. …Stoicism [etc]…exactly as I stated” That sums up all the logic of this discussion. Dr Wilson will not allow for the context of Augustine’s transformation, which he doesn’t seem to want to fully comprehend and acknowledge, by referencing his past as a defining and unchanging experience in Manichaeism. I was once a charismatic and word of faith follower, but I’m now against all the wrong teachings while acknowledging the aspects that are biblical. The key word being biblical. If Augustine has left his old beliefs so must we in defining him and not trying to force anachronistically a context to his position apart from the way he said he got it, from the word! It’s funny that in trying to comment one of the prompts asked that we address the argument rather than the person, but that’s exactly what this entire ‘short’ video was doing. Augustine’s arguments are from scripture. Address that, and stop straw manning his position. Nevertheless, it is irrelevant if in some sort of twisted way a good position can be argued from a human perspective to understand the text, it still doesn’t make the argument invalid simply by it sounding like something we detest. That’s a genetic fallacy being used to deny God’s word. What’s more important, and hasn’t yet been proven otherwise, is that God is sovereign, and man isn’t. God does what He pleases, and man does sin as he pleases, yet not to the total extent of his depravity but is constantly being restrained by God until he is left to himself in eternal damnation if he isn’t saved. God, who knows the end from the beginning isn’t compelled by an external force, which includes man’s ‘free will’ to create all who will eventually reject him, even though He already knows who it is who will reject and those He has chosen in Him from before the world began, for the Lord knows those who are His and who it is that does not believe. But how does anyone believe? Rom 10:14-15 tells us; the ones whom God has first sent the preach to preach the word they hear, and by hearing they believe and then are able to call on the name of the Lord and be saved. It begins with God sending all preachers to the one who will believe what he hears. For how shall they preach unless they are sent? If there’s any that isn’t determined then how do you explain anything? Where do those things originate in an ultimate sense from? We can debate the efficient causes by man which is the responsibility aspect of the complimentary nature of our actions but that doesn’t negate the fact that while we are the efficient causes God is still sovereign in spite of and not due to our actions. I would legitimately like to get answers to some of the questions I have asked above. Needless to say, this conversation didn’t provide anything but an echo chamber to provisionism in my opinion. Prove me wrong.
*WHY THE CALVINIST TREATS THE DOCTRINE AS-IF IT IS FALSE* 1) An infallible decree - by its very nature - does not grant ALTERNATIVES from that which is decreed 2) For example: If it is decreed that [X] will be TRUE at TIME-T Then that decree *INFALLIBLY EXCLUDES* the option of [X] NOT being TRUE at TIME-T. 3) The very existence of any ALTERNATIVE from that which was decreed - would countervail that decree. And a decree which is infallible cannot be countervailed. 4) Therefore NO ALTERNATIVES from that which is decreed are granted existence within creation. 5) Therefore - NO ALTERNATIVES exist for any Calvinist to choose between. 6) For example: If it is decreed that Calvinist_A will perform SIN_X at TIME-T Then that decree *INFALLIBLY EXCLUDES* the option of Calvinist_A NOT performing SIN_X at TIME-T 7) Calvinist_A NOT performing SIN_X at TIME-T would countervail the decree A decree which is infallible cannot be countervailed. Therefore - the option of Calvinist_A NOT performing SIN_X at TIME-T is not granted existence within creation. THUS IT FOLLOWS: Per the doctrine - for every human event - and every human impulse - an infallible decree grants *ONLY ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN OPTION* Man is granted *NO CHOICE* in the matter of what that option will be and *NO ABILITY* to refrain. THE DILEMMA FOR THE POOR UNFORTUNATE CALVINIST: It is humanly impossible to live coherently with such a doctrine and at the same time retain any sense of human normalcy. There is no such thing as a human having a CHOICE between ALTERNATIVES ALTERNATIVES do not exist for humans to choose between. THAT IS WHY Every Calvinist is forced to assert the doctrine as TRUE While simultaneously treating the doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE. And since the poor Calvinist is taught the doctrine is what scripture teaches him It follows - the poor Calvinist is forced to treat what scripture teaches him *AS-IF* it is FALSE.
The most hard-core and miserable Calvinist I've met told me that he HAS to believe like a Calvinist and evangelise like an Arminianist - he got the quote from somewhere because I'd heard it before. He had absolutely no joy in his life and I think his faulty beliefs were, in part, responsible for this.
@@godsstruggler8783 DW: If a Calvinist told me that - I would thank him for the degree of honesty with which me maintains himself. That degree of honesty is unusual for most Calvinists - because most of them tell themselves - they are not being dishonest if they are being dishonest about the doctrine.
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 DW: Very insightful! Here is an example: John Calvin -quote When [Augustine] uses the term “Permission” *THE MEANING WHICH HE ATTACHES TO IT* will best appear from a single passage (De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4), where he proves that the will of god is the supreme and primary *CAUSE* of all things….(Institutes 1, 16, 8) Every language within every human society will STANDARDIZE the meanings of words the same way they STANDARDIZE the values of coins - in order to prevent people from being deceived by words with hidden meanings - the same way they would be cheated by coins with hidden values. He who can alter the values of coins for every transaction - gains the advantage over the person he exchanges with. This is what scripture calls - operating from a FALSE BALANCE. In Calvinism - the Calvinist refuses to subject himself to STANDARDS because they are STANDARDS of man - and he does not conform himself to human STANDARDS. This permits him to alter the meanings of words whenever it serves his purpose to gain an advantage. Thus as Calvin states Augustine is free to alter the meanings of words by *ATTACHING* whatever meaning he wants to them. Here - *CAUSE* is the meaning *ATTACHED* to the word “Permit” The Calvinist does not want to say his god *CAUSES* every sinful evil impulse that will come to pass within the human mind. So he takes the word "Permit" which he knows people will accept and he alters its meaning to mean *CAUSE* 1) What Calvin's god CAUSES by divine decree - he permits 2) What Calvin's god does not CAUSE by divine decree - he does not permit. This allows Calvinists like John Piper and John MacArthur etc - to tell people - Calvin's god "Permits" sinful evil impulses. While obfuscating the fact that what he means is *CAUSE*
@@godsstruggler8783 That saying goes back a long way. Calvinists learned long ago that if they preached Calvin to unbelievers it didn't produce any Calvinists, only rightfully horrified unbelievers who were doubly resolved not to have anything to do with such ghastly doctrines. That was when they adopted the saying that your Calvinist acquaintance quoted. By insincerely preaching the actual Biblical gospel and initially hiding their own disbelief in it, they can sometimes convert unbelievers into new Christians, who have an ill-founded trust in the Calvinist and are then vulnerable to being brainwashed into Calvinism. In recent years, many Calvinists have adopted a "work smarter, not harder" approach. They infiltrate unwary non-Calvinist churches filled with low-information Christians and use a combination of fancy-sounding theological terms and shameless flattery to deceive the unwary into accepting Calvinism. Jesus' rebuke to the scribes and the Pharisees rings true for Calvinists as well. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." (Matthew 23:15)
Five seconds in - here’s your Bible verses. “I declare the end from the beginning” “Him who works all things according to the counsel of his own will” Romans 9:14 addresses the human reaction of declaring God unjust for His free choices. This doesn’t mean you don’t choose things, rather God is so big that He works all things according to his will through your free decisions. This was all written down hundreds of years ago in the WCF but people are not taught historical doctrine so arguments against straw men are all to common on these topics. “deterministic Calvinism” is already a straw man by the phraseology. It assumes man has no choice, which the reformers clearly taught the opposite, just that man’s will is fallen and sinful, which always leads us to choose the wrong thing until Christ’s spirit comes to us and bears fruit in us (John 15:5). We can do nothing apart from Him.
Exactly. Leighton has been corrected on that "deterministic" straw man, but he persists in presenting it. Some unsuspecting folks get roped into defending the straw men Leighton constructs, unfortunately, which adds to the overall confusion.
Agreed 👍 A pattern I've seen as well in these sorts of discussions is that they fail to distinguish between the human perspective and God's perspective. We can say that from God's perspective, all things are decreed, but yet as that decree acts out in time from our perspective we make real choices that are in line with the divine decree. There's a failure to link God's sovereignty with foreknowledge, nature of creation, creaturely wills etc. If they were consistent with their exegesis and philosophy, they would arrive at open theism.
But you don't believe in free decisions, so it can't possibly be as you claim. These free decisions are actually prescribed decisions. Sure, we can conceive of other decisions, but we don't have the freedom to make them. (Under Calvanism) Why do you presuppose that the council of God's will could not possibly invole allowing people to truly, freely accept or reject him of their own accord? How is it that you come to conclude that God, before creation, was incapable of saying, "I want to filter my creation according to its uncoerced allegiance to me," while knowing that only a small percent of that creation would choose him? What verse says that God didn't determine to do that? Your interpretation of passages like these make some big (unfounded) assumptions.
So you fully accept specific determinism? That did not come out of a vacuum. John Calvin: "Augustine is so much at one with me that, if I wished to write a confession of my faith, it would abundantly satisfy me to quote wholesale from his writings."
John Calvin: "Augustine is so much at one with me that, if I wished to write a confession of my faith, it would abundantly satisfy me to quote wholesale from his writings."
It truly is. It quenches Evangelical fervor. We should be straining to pursue every possible soul, not just speaking the gospel and leaving them to be damned. Rescue those who are being taken away to death, and those who are staggering to slaughter. Oh, hold them back! Proverbs 24:11
A PhD in Biblical illiteracy!!! Paul: “In the last days, there will be some who are bent on leading many astray - although well learnt, they are just not able to come to the knowledge of the Truth” - 2Tim 3:1-7
@@billlythekid5780 In 2Timothy 3:1-9, Paul gives a very specific eschatological perspective of the things that must be expected in the LAST DAYS (Gk. eschatais hēmerais), (which began with the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost - Act 2:17), and explicitly warns against the emergence of FALSE TEACHERS - those who claim to know God, but whose lives are devoid of the work of the Spirit (which would have resulted in holiness, perseverance, and effectiveness in advancing God’s kingdom) - this accurately describes men like Leighton Flowers and Ken Wilson who insist on asserting the ‘sovereignty of man’ over the sovereignty of God! Paul instructs that such people are to be avoided…
@@osksWell congratulations sir you just earned your PHD....in the field of missing the point. Nobody says "The "Sovereignty of man" that's not a thing that any provisions has ever used. Stop lying. Furthermore man is not "Sovereign" because God gives him 2 options "You either be punished for your crimes" or "turn to Christ" that's a lie. Furthermore the Bible never says that if you don't believe that God determines everything that you're not saved and are leading people astray. Stop making crap up. You're pet doctrines are not the Gospel. It doesn't matter whether you like them. Knock it off.
Seeing how successful the relentless campaign against the false teaching of "the Prosperity Gospel" has been in keeping that out of many churches, why can't the same approach be taken with the (at least) equally destructive and false teaching of Calvinism? I realize that the false teaching of Calvinism has been rooted more deeply (for centuries in many church denominations) than prosperity teaching, but why can't we at least consider it and deal with it the same way as "Prosperity Gospel" is treated?
This is correct. I think it is a logical fallacy that a Calvinist would argue with anyone for the fact that the differing opinion it was predetermined.
One of the central tenets of new atheism is the complete lack free will and the inability to choose our actions. Islam and some sects of Gnosticims, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Shintoism teach the same thing. You can be a Calvinist without even believing in Christ.
I think it is important to notice that the Old Testament is not deterministic and the New Testament and Christ’s teachings are absolutely prepared by the Old Testament..
After much study of Calvinistic doctrines I've come to know that while Jesus said "you will know my disciples their love," I've come to believe that I know a reformer by. "the beards they grow, the cigars they smoke, the whiskey they drink and the caps they wear"!! The more I see their videos the more I've come to see that many of them are nothing more than 'posers'.
I attend what has become a calvinist leaning church, and the pastor has a sometimes potty mouth and is condescending to any other expression of Christianity. Trying to figure out how to get me and my wife out with the minimal damage to relationships..
Christians identifying with the reformed movement amazes me. Why do Christians align modern churches to churches that came out of the reformation and not want to align with the early church.
@@knxcholx People dead to God have no will. They are dead. Got it? Dead people have no free will. People who are slaves to their sin have no free will. God's love isn't conditional upon them making a choice. He loves whom He will love and hardens those who, by their fallen nature, hate and resist Him. Jesus loved Hs Church, the Bride, not those who are NOT His Bride. He gave Himself for her and died for her. He redeemed her from the slavery of sin and gave her the will to choose. Your god is free will, not the King of kings and Lord of lords.
@@knxcholx Lucifer is the father of lies and he fully supported Eve's choice to naked her will above that of God's. Your god is no more powerful than Lucifer.
Hasta hace una década pensaba q el determinismo de Calvino tenía su raíz en la filosofía de su época, como Liebniz o de los nuevos descubrimientos de la física de Newton (llevadas a las últimas consecuencias como un mecanisismo espiritual); hoy después de leer a Paul Ricoeur y su re-interpretación del simbolismo del mal creo q la concepción determinista de Calvino está enraizada en el folclore de la mitología europea
When I was a kid, I used to listen to that Judas Priest song "Green Manichean (with a Two-Pronged Crown)". Oh, wait. It was Manalishi, not Manichean. lol
Isaiah 46:10 [10] declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
Calvin referenced Augustine around 430 times in his first edition of his Institutes. Calvin was a Roman Catholic who still clung to the Sacraments on his death bed. I don't know why people refer to him as a Christian? Roman Catholicism is founded on Augustinianism.
Why would you asset that Calvin was a Roman Catholic? That is absurd. Have you studied any history of the Reformation? Calvin was THE leader of the Reformation in Geneva, quite opposed to Rome.
@@chaddonal4331Hello sir. Understand that Luther was also a Roman Catholic and, initially, never had any intention to to leave the church or start a major new thing. This was in fact the water they were swimming in.
If Calvinist reasoning is true about what the Bible says, then, all men have repented and turned to God and the world will be judges in righteousness and not wickedness. If God gives command, then that is what will happen. Acts, chapter 17, verses 26-31 "26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." James White is a willfully ignorant man. Ephesians 1 is talking about the church both in heaven and on the earth.
It might very well present that. Our point is that it's not God's default modus operandi. There are some things God has determined, and some things he has not. The problem lies in the arguments that God has determined every single thing, which we don't find to be biblical.
From the opening line, hasn't that "Oxford PhD" read the Bible? The answer is Ephesians 1:10-11. In Ephesians 1:11, we see that God “works all things according to the counsel of His will.” This “all things,” according to verse 10 includes all things in the heavens and all things on the earth. And according to Colossians 1:16, this “all things” both in the heavens and on earth includes all things “visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities,” so it isn't just physical things, but also actions, circumstances, and even the thoughts and wills of men (Cf. Psalm 105:25, Revelation 17:17), including the evil actions of men (Cf. 2 Samuel 12:11-12). The word translated into English as “work” is the transitive verb “ἐνεργέω” (energeo), which, as a transitive verb, it has a direct object (“all things”) and it means “to effect” that direct object. Since all “effects” must have a sufficient cause, this passage quite literally makes God the ultimate cause of all things in heaven and on earth. The same transitive verb construction is seen in Ephesians 1:19, 1 Corinthians 12:6, 11, Galatians 3:5, Philippians 2:13; see Thayer’s, pg. 215.
That's a terrible attitude to have. Calvinists still trust in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins; if you'd rather be an atheist than believe that if Calvinism were true then you have some serious issues.
@@LawlessNateYour sins? God in Calvinism has predestined your sins and then punishes you for committing them. He even predestined Adam to fall. The atonement is also viewed as limited to a few elect; everyone else is punished for sins they could not have avoided committing. It’s madness.
Along with Jeremiah 19:5; 1 John 2:16; we can add Jeremiah 32: 35; 7:31. And yes, the ESV translation of the Hebrew word DBR, almost always occurring in the Pi'el/factitive stem, is properly translated decree. It is the word to speak, which in this stem means to put into a state of having been spoken, which in application means that it will happen, that is, it is decreed. Despite the inferiority of the ESV translation, which the reformed camp loves, they got this right. James White has never been impressive. He is an inferior voice in the reformed camp. I've heard him say some really uneducated things, misrepresenting what other Christians believe.. If I were still a Calvinist, he would be the laughing Stock of the Calvinist camp in my opinion. And John MacArthur isn't much better, making some very uneducated statements about groups that disagree with him. James White is the Chris Davis of the reformed camp. Popular, had an initial impact, but can't hit his way out of a wet paper bag. Frankly, I actually don't think he's that educated at all. One can have a doctorate and not know what he is talking about. And as for Augustine, I have never understood why he has been so popular and so trusted. His determinist thinking was actually on the level of federal vision. But even if one says it was not, why in the world does the Roman Catholic Church like a guy with whom they have extreme disagreement and sociology? Augustine was not influential because he knew what he was talking about, but because he had some sort of other effect of influence. I think he was more of a political player than people want to admit.
Thanks for the references. Jeremiah 19:5 is good verse to use with a Calvinist: "They have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I never commanded (decreed) nor spoke, nor did it come into My mind." If they want that verse to be an example of one of God's "decrees", it actually is the opposite. That verse says that these people did things that God "never decreed nor spoke". That verse diametrically opposes their false teaching that God decrees all things that come to pass.
Genuinely asking ( not trying to provoke). Aren't we DEAD in our sins? Don't we sin because of our sin nature? If we can choose to follow Christ / God of our own accord...then why did Christ die? Grace is unmerited/ unearned favor. What overcomes a person's sin nature? Isn't it Christ?
Dead in our sins…. We are spiritually in a dead state. We aren’t physically dead yet. One must respond to the calling of the Holy Spirit to trust in the Son or else you will remain dead in your sins.
Who gave you the idea that being "dead in sin" means one is unable to accept God's pardon? In English, we have the terminology of "sentenced to death" - the Bible uses one word "death" to sometimes mean "sentenced to death". When God showed up to Abimelech and told him "You are a dead man" - this does not mean Abimelech is metaphysically unable to respond to God or that he is literally dead, God was conveying "you are a man who is sentenced to death". In English we have the term "condemned". A condemned prisoner means a prisoner who has received the death penalty. The clearest reference in the Bible to convey that "death" can mean "condemned"/"sentenced to death" is John 5:24. In John 5:24-25 those who are condemned, have the ability to positively respond to Jesus - receiving life is conditional on hearing (which means obeying) Jesus. God or Jesus does not determine who gets to obey in this passage. Thus properly understanding Ephesians 2:1 to mean "And you were SENTENCED TO DEATH in your trespasses and sins" removes the false inability doctrine. Ephesians 2:1-5 is contrasting "sentenced to death" with "eternal life" as per language of John 5:24 which has "life = eternal life". [If we can choose to follow Christ / God of our own accord...then why did Christ die?] God sent Jesus to die to give a provision. In John 3:14, just as God provided the bronze serpent as a provision for healing, God also provided the blood of Jesus by means of the cross, as a provision of salvation. "God provides the provision, human has to positively respond to it" is not a difficult concept. [Grace is unmerited/ unearned favor. ] Wrong. Grace means favor. Merited or unmerited is a false dilemma. There are conditional favors. There are unconditional favors. You being alive now is an unconditional favor. These are the verses that prove some favor from God are conditional. a) Humility condition - Proverbs 3:34, 1 Peter 5:5-6, James 4:6-7 b) Knowledge of God condition - 2 Peter 1:2 [What overcomes a person's sin nature? Isn't it Christ?] You receive the Holy Spirit and Jesus to overcome your sin desire. You obey God first before you receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:32).
@@samvogel2368 but.. we aren’t dead corpses.. we are alive and have thinking minds that are capable of hearing arguments and making informed decisions. Not everything in the Bible is literal, the meanings are literal, but context often points to symbolism/metaphors/etc. We were once dead in sin. Meaning we spiritually WERE like dead corpses. But now we have LIFE thru hearing and believing of the gospel.
@@samvogel2368 I assumed you would have recognized the content of John 5:24 when I quoted John 5:24 to you. Since you are clueless, let me quote it now. John 5:24 “Truly, truly I say to you, whoever hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death into life. CONDEMNATION = Death Eternal life = Life The Bible can use the word "death" to mean "condemnation/condemned". Death in the Bible is context dependent and the word death does not always mean "unresponsive". Ephesians 2:1 does not say “sentenced to death” word for word in the Greek because this is an English language construct. My point is that the Bible sometimes uses one word “death” to convey the message of “sentenced to death” - THIS IS CLEARLY PROVEN IN JOHN 5:24. In English, a criminal who has been “condemned” means a criminal who has received the death penalty. There is another term to convey "sentenced to death" to speak of a criminal who has received the death sentence, that is “dead man walking”. “Dead man walking” means a criminal who has received the death sentence but is not yet executed. Also, you are making the mistake to assume that someone who is sentenced to death is executed immediately therefore immediately unresponsive. That is not how it works. John 5:25 Truly, truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. In John 5:25, when the “condemned”/”dead men walking” hear the voice of Jesus and among those who choose to hear (obey), will be freed from the “death penalty” and have eternal life. Don’t use Ephesians 2:1 to prove your false theology. There is no such thing as spiritual death in the Bible. There is not a single verse in the Bible that says it. The correct category is whether or not you have the Holy Spirit.
I lean heavily towards Provisionist / Traditionalist-Southern Baptist soteriology, being very blessed by Soteriology 101 and similar ministries in their pointing out the errors of Calvinism. I am not a scholar of any sort, just a layman who has done his best studying the Scriptures and apologetics for over 30 years, with the last few years looking more at Church history. I was quite saddened at first when I noticed fellow believers on S101 pointing out potential errors of Ken Wilson; I dismissed them at first. Though I first learned from Dr. Wilsons book that Augustine was the first major purveyor of the Exhaustive Divine Determinism adhered to by Calvinists, it was pointed out to me by these other believers, not only that other scholars already knew that Augustine was the main proponent of this Determinism (though heavily influenced by Marius Victorinus), which is fundamental to Calvinism, but that there were errors by Dr. Wilson, discovered not by Calvinists (as one might expect), but by Lutherans and Arminian / Baptists! These gentlemen acknowledge Augustine’s later Determinism, but contend against various inaccuracies concerning the universality of early infant baptism and not a few other issues concerning the Early Church. Sadly, I discovered the truth of this in my own research. Now knowing these things, I feel that this could be detrimental to the S101 ministry, and I certainly don’t want to see that happen
[Dan 4:24-25, 31-32 ESV] 24 this is the interpretation, O king: It is a decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king, 25 that you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. You shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and you shall be wet with the dew of heaven, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will. ... 31 While the words were still in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, "O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: The kingdom has departed from you, 32 and you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. And you shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will." [Dan 4:34-37 ESV] 34 At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; 35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" 36 At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and splendor returned to me. My counselors and my lords sought me, and I was established in my kingdom, and still more greatness was added to me. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to humble.
We often leave out the Spiritual aspect, component with false doctrine. Extra biblical theology that causes doubt & fatalism is not from God. Drive home from church: "Gee Dear, your quiet?" "Do you agree with what the new Pastor is teaching?" "Well, he says it's how salvation really works, but he's right about it being a hard pill to swallow" "Then I don't want to try for a boy...I don't want to have anymore children. I won't be a part of conceiving & birthing a soul that might be pre-ordained to destruction...by God's divine decree?? My Grandfather never preached anything like that. How can that come from the same bible?" 👿 "Hath God indeed said?"
Maybe I am wrong but what I gather from calvinism is that God is a monster(but they believe He is still good), they quinch and at times reject the Holy Spirit(which is also extremely bad/dangerous, and they create a stumbling block for christians and unbelievers alike. This is not good. Though I agree that many can/are saved. It is is a dangerous way which is not leading us correctly.
They follow him for the same reasons people still follow the ridiculous ravings of Joseph Smith or the Watchtower Society. Either they were raised in it and are too afraid to shake free and embrace the truth, or they were bamboozled into it when older and are too proud to admit they got scammed.
@@awesomefacepalm I kind of disagree; I can't think of one area where he actually shines. There are people that do it much better in every domain to the point I think he's a net negative. I suppose you could compliment the mile wide-inch deep aspect. But why would you settle for that when you can get actual experts in the topics. In the end I think the appeal is familiarity. I've seen people ask Leighton all sorts of non-soteriological questions, I'm guessing because they like him in this area and assume that level of expertise translates elsewhere and to his credit Leighton punts on those issues, especially if he feels he hasn't read enough on it. White just shoots from the hip.
@@EulersIdentityCrisisyeah you must not be paying attention. White is a great defender of the gospel and is great at explaining it. He knows what he’s talking about, but you don’t like it. He already debunked Wilson’s book.
“Where in the bible does it say God determines the future” Isaiah: “Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure”
To be charitable to both Augustine & Calvin, it should be pointed out that there are pastoral objectives to their determinism - trying to get around the damnation of unbaptized infants and (Augustine) and the condemnation of Protestants in France (God determines your salvation, not the church who is condemning you as heretics). This does not make them correct, but does undermine the fact that they are somehow ‘just seeing what in Scripture.’ They tried to offer comfort, but made large hermeneutical & theological mistakes in doing so.
The easiest way to debunk White heresie: Augustin was CATHOLIC... AUGUSTIN IS CATHOLIC CHURCH FATHER....why in the world is the Catholic church NOT FOLLOWING AUGUSTIN on this topic and teach "deterministic view" like Calvin? Because Catholics know determinism was not a apostolic teaching or orthodox doctrine .... This fact alone is Enough to show the idiocy of Calvinist...
Greek philosophy created the problem, losing the Hebrew roots of the prime concepts of God’s revelation have all worked together to bring about foul calvinism
Just a question..Can we hold Augustine's sinful past against him ?Not talking about the influences his past had...Beza who seems to have entrenched some thi gs had a sinful past...apparently something to do with pornographic poetry...When his enemies mentioned this...he apparently said..They deny me my conversion. Don't think I am a fan of Beza...but he had a point.Not referring to Augustines theology here...Not sure if this is the right place for this specific point. Thanks...appreciate the podcasts.
Augustine when he first converted followed the early church fathers and argued for free will against his former manichaean brethren. He only went back to justify infant baptism.
Pelagius pointed out that Augustine was a false convert and was indeed teaching psuedoChristianity through the lens of Manechian gnosticism which is why Augustine then spent the next 10 years trying to destroy Pelagius. Pelagius was cleared and was only finally condemned a month before he died due to political pressure. Augustine was not a Christian. He was a rhetorician who wanted to be famous and jumped on the bandwagon of the popular new philosophy which was Christian philosophy--also already perverted by Stoicism, NeoPlutonic, and Aristotelian philosophy and not true Christianity--all the "Christian" rhetoricians were also false converts. It's all politics and philosophy --not Christianity. Most of them where homosexuals and/or pedophiles! They were Stoics, Plutonic, Aristotelian philosophers and gnostic cultists first and falsely professing Christians second. It's blatantly obvious if you're actually a Spirit-filled Christian. Stop idolizing these demonized false converts who derailed the majority of Christianity for the next 1600 years! Stop idolizing any man! It only took 20 years after John died for those who he taught to go completely off the rails and we see that happen over and over again every time the Holy Spirit moves and issues a course correction--only takes a generation for that new sect to twist that into false doctrine. Luther did the same--his goal was to create Christian nationalism in Germany and make himself their pope and overthrow the Catholic ruled nations. He literally inspired NAZI Germany. He wasn't trying to teach us salvation by grace through faith alone--that's all propaganda and mythology which is now taught as church history in seminaries.
@@ReformedOrthodoxy Determinism is in direct conflict with scripture. God himself has declared he has not decreed all things in a deterministic sense. He has allowed them and predestined them to be, but God has created free beings that He has given the ability to make free decisions apart from the force and coercion of God.
Luke 22:32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” 2Tim 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;.....I guess these sacred texts & countless texts alike, just don't count in Calvinism & im sorry to say but its the expected result of sola scriptura & worst of all, Calvinism teeters on blaspheming the Holy Spirit, calling our Good Holy Gracious Loving God & Savior the author of evil..its a problem
How does Luke 2232 help the free will position ? If Christ is not praying for your faith, it will fail, that is why he is an intercessor for us. John 17:9 Jesus explicitly says he prays not for the world but those that the father has given him.
@@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349 It doesnt help the osas position & if you would read the entirety of John 17, you wouldn't even present what you did...unless reading over the text....besides this, we can go to text after text that obliterates Calvinism in ever respect, as we explicitly see believers can fall away, many are righteous & that God has given the earth to the sons of men.
@@J-PLeigh8409 We also see that there people who are forever learning but NEVER coming into the knowledge of the truth, so salvation is based on intellect, or God's divine granting of revelation? I am not a Calvinist but that doesn't change the fact that you literally just typed an entire paragraph without articulating a single point - and this explains why you would be a Leighton fan. John 3 proves a man cannot perceive the Kingdom of God unless he is born again, so regeneration preceded faith - this on it's own makes sovereign Grace true, along with about 500 other verses or the entire bible itself. Why don't you start by giving me your exegesis on Ezekiel 36:26-28 in light of the free position.
@@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349 ok, so you clearly just want to argue & instead of being charitable & gracious such as a born again believer should, you just assert & could just ask & find out that Im not even subbed to this channel, maybe replied to 2 of his vids in my life & most importantly Im unapologetically Catholic, hence the reply at Sola Scriptura & its rotten fruit....exactly what your problematically revealing. You presented John 17:9 alone I believe, so why is it a problem Im telling you to read the entire chapter, exegeting easily & apart from one sentence, or should I copy & paste the ch? You Protesters lack reading comprehension & have to dismiss various sacred texts to form doctrine, its a house of cards. Also, we hold to regenerative baptism just as holy Scripture & Christs authoritative Church teaches & Ezekiel prophetically implies thru baptism. I don't even know your attempted point w/ the Ezekiel text
Although I love everything you do, I think Leyton and this other guy are coming from either a place of compassion as former calvinist (Layton), misunderstanding or outright cowardice. Devout Calvinist(more specifically those who teach and hold to it) are not brothers since they diminish the power of the cross to save, they turn God into a monster and their is no purpose for Satan in there doctrine and I can Go on and on... they don't hold to the same gospel therefore they are not Christians.
The Divine Determinism Trap: If God is recognized as the sole Creator, Designer, Implementer, and Sustainer of all that exists, then it logically follows that every element of creation is directly or indirectly caused by God. This predetermination by divine will means that all entities and outcomes within the universe are unalterably set, including human will. Consequently, any attempt to change this divinely orchestrated design through human speculation or intervention is inherently futile.
March 7, 2024. I hope that this debate, unlike the Romans 9 debate, will spend the majority of its time in John 6 given the topic. I am hoping for less of a topical sermon and more of an analysis of the text defined in the debate topic.
That happens to me when I try to study about calvanist beliefs, I just stay away . I think God is telling me , "Don't even go there, or you will regret it. Makes my brain feel like mush.
The exposure of Calvinism isn’t new. It’s an innovation that has been seen as heresy contrary to the preserved teaching handed down by the apostles to the one Church as preserved in Eastern Orthodoy
It sounds like Augustine wholesale accepted the Stoics view of fatalism, but then baptized it theologically as being God’s providential decree - without any additional shift in meaning. As if the Stoics got it exactly right, except missing that God is behind the fatalism.
If everything is decreed, then God has no freedom. God is not a free being, because God is forced to think and act for all eternity as he commanded himself to act and think before the foundations of the world. Determinism is absurd. God is a free being, it means he can do what he wants, it doesn't mean he is forced to do what he decreed himself to do.
He would probably argue with God in reality poor Greek just before he’s cast into the unquenchable fire with all the”reprobates” No You got it wrong Está mi tosh tish tosh mosh pit glenflatish god, I need to talk to your boss, you know…. King sovereignty
@@reformedpilgrimYep, in Classical Latin. Then there's French Latin (from where British English took the "See-sero" or "Si-sero" pronunciation), German Latin, Ecclesiastical Latin and Medieval Latin. The Italians took on the medieval Latin pronunciation. Today Italians call him "CHEE-CHERO". In Italian, the letter "c" never has an "s" sound and has a "k" sound if the "c" is followed by a consonant, an "h" or any vowel other than "e" or "i". [When the "c" is followed by "e" or "i" then the "c" is pronounced "ch"].
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Debate details:
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Dr. Flowers, I appreciate your videos. How would you reply to this comment that I have been told. Proverbs 16:33 "We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall." They say this points to God's determinism of even "nonchalantly" throwing dice.
"Augustine baptized Stoic thought into Christianity." This is a perfect analogy.
Stoicism started being baptized into Christianity all the way back with Justin Martyr, and most heavily by Clement of Alexandria. This was the norm among the orthodox for 200 years before Augustine.
Not if the information his premise is completely wrong. The Epistle of Clement, around AD 100, has the same deterministic reading of and explanation of Scripture. One sample: "By the word of his power he made all things ; and by his word he is able to destroy them. Who shall say unto him, What hast thou done ? or who shall resist the power of his might'? He hath done all things when he pleased, and as he pleased ; and nothing shall pass away of all that hath been determined by him."
@paulkinslow385 nothing of what you just said equals determinism. Even if your right about your point, you didn't prove anything?
I love this quote and will use it now, brevity is the soul of wit
@@paulkinslow385John Calvin: "Augustine is so much at one with me that, if I wished to write a confession of my faith, it would abundantly satisfy me to quote wholesale from his writings."
Dr Ken Wilson has severely debunked calvinism. This man needs to be talked about more.
@brianfamilar9800 keep telling yourself that bud
@brianfamilar9800
Oh Gee ! You are just sooo intelligent 😂😂😂. Another Calvinist /Sanctimonious Hypocrite
@brianfamilar9800 I just don't understand how it's illogical to assume that Augustine couldn't have possibly read the bible through the lense of his previous gnosticism....in fact, isn't that the problem with the church today, reading thr scriptures from a Western mindset? If we can read the bible from the wrong lense than so could Augustine. He was a mortal man.
Seriously debunked 😂 how exactly ?
@@joelpelton1361 by actually studying Augustin and reading all his Latin material in order.
I imagine it like this:
Two nations at war. A warship is sunk and 1000 sailors are slowly drowning. An enemy ship shows up that has room to carry all 1000.
The Calvinist version of the captain would randomly select 10 to forcibly drag from the water, then brainwash them to love him and worship him and his benevolence.
My God will throw out 1000 ropes and beg them to grab the rope to be saved and carried to his homeland for healing. Most will reject the ropes and deliberately drown rather than submit to their enemy. But some will choose life and freedom, those are the ones who are saved.
Such an erroneous view of Calvinism.
Your god let’s His redemptive plan rest on sinful man?
@@dfischer5878You’re a sinner like the rest of us. How do you think you got saved? Did God force you into His salvation? No, you freely chose it. That’s why it’s called a free gift. God can’t force a free gift onto you.
@@katierucker2870actually I wasn’t even looking to same God reached me randomly on a for you page on tik tok when I haven’t looked up anything Christian before and I spent my first year of being a Christian knowing Jesus found me as His lost sheep I didn’t go and look for Him.
Secondly there is no such thing as a universal free choice of the Gospel because even if Gods grace was based on your free will of choosing to believe or reject the choice there has been billions of people who live there entire lives without even hearing the gospel once in there entire life since the death and resurrection of Lord Jesus. Also Jesus makes it explicitly clear that we can’t come to Him on our own without God first granting us to. “no man came come to Me unless the Father grants him” John 6:65. In context Jesus was speaking not to just Judas but also the other people who were unbelieving around Him meaning our ability to believe and come to Jesus is based first on the granting of God first. So there is total inability blatantly and explicitly in the scripture. and there’s blatant proof that God has to choose us first for use to come to Christ rather then God chooses us after we come to Christ.
Well put👍🏻 Calvinist hate when you clarify their actual system for them.
Don’t forget, the 990 were slowly fed to the sharks to somehow bring glory to the enemy Calvinist captain.
Then brought back to life and re-fed to the sharks 100 million billion times for his glory.
That captain has pretty low self esteem 🤔
Good anaolgy. God has provided an escape from the judgment, our sinful lifestyle and the has lovingly provided a hand of peace to His enemies that is open to all who will humble themselves and become citizens of the heavenly kingdom.
Great idea-keep reposting Ken Wilson's previous interviews. Really appreciate all your efforts w/ the subject. Thank you
The last 5 minutes of this interview alone makes watching the entire video a worthwhile episode in my opinion (as they all are). James White fits the mold of most Neo-Calvinist leaders today: arrogant, overtly intellectual, condescending, crass, and scripturally duplicitous. Calvinism is one of the greatest self-inflicted wounds the Church of Jesus Christ has ever received and it panders to younger generations who have been fed self-esteem movement, new age inspired education that puffs up the self over those deemed to be lesser than thou. Tragic.
I don't know any Calvinists who are, as you described.
@@ryleighloughty3307 my comment was targeted specifically at Calvinist leaders. I am not making a broad brush statement towards all calvinists, but rather pointing out the dangers such a soteriology poses to the gospel message that Jesus died for all and all are guilty of sin. Calvinism says that Jesus died for some, and if you’re not elected in eternity past you are damned and incapable of changing. That message puffs up pride and younger generations are not known for their humility but rather their arrogant ignorance. Lethal combination when mixed with a misinterpreted doctrine like Calvinism
@@fed_up_cowboy
Okay.
The notions of 'free will' and 'predestination' comfortably coexist.
Furthermore, the notion that sinful human beings can contribute anything to our salvation is a worrying contradiction.
@@ryleighloughty3307Nobody claimed we "contribute" to our salvation. non-Calvinists claim we can either accept the grace of God or reject it. No work we accomplish on our own influences the mechanism of salvation one way or another.
@@DrDemolition97
I view the beliefs as expressed in the anacronym TULIP to be correct.
Only Leighton would have a 24 minute "short" lol...but we love it. Keep em coming.
Lol! I agree. I love his 3+ hr vids. For me anything he does under 1 hour is a short! 😅
@@brianfamilar9800 You mistakenly assumed that I care what the "elites" outside my circle think.
They will know we are Christians by our love, so if that puts me outside your camp, that's quite alright with me.
@@BillyMenno yep, Leighton definitely demonstrates Christian charity while having a debate. More than we can say about some people to their own shame.
No! We need fully developed content- which we are getting! 😊
I thank God for a channel like this in exposing the source of Calvinistic views. Keep up this great work brother. Greetings from the Philippines.
God evidently did not decree that all men should agree that deterministic theology is correct
Boom
Why am I always disappointed by James' consistent use of strawman caricatures and ad hominem? I find it hard to belive that's the level of scholarship that earned him a doctorate.
That's why White has his "Beautiful Cereal Box Doctorate" instead of an actual doctorate from an accredited university...
@@DamonNomad82 Where is it from anyways?
@@JamesBrown-fd1nv It's from an unaccredited online school called "Columbia Evangelical Seminary" (which has nothing to do with the Ivy League school Columbia University, though I suspect the online school chose the name in hopes that people would confuse the two).
I can't listen to James White. He is so deluded that I only last a couple minutes before "changing the channel" at this point. Kudos to Dr Leighton Flowers for his patience.
@@brianfamilar9800are implying that the top comment you replied to is ad hominem?
GREAT session Dr. Flowers, thank you!
Literally none of the verses James White cited for the Calvinist belief in a meticulous divine decree mention such a decree at all. Pure eisegetical example.
lol I had to look up Ephesians 1:11 to see if decree was even in it. You’re right, it’s not in there. I wonder what “bible” he’s reading?
“I can’t believe that!” said Alice.
“Can’t you?” the Queen said in a pitying tone. “Try again: draw a long breath, and shut your eyes.”
Alice laughed. “There’s no use trying,” she said, “one can’t believe impossible things.”
“I dare say you haven’t had much practice,” said the Queen. “When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
― Lewis Carroll
Dr White, being an EDUCATED man can do what Alice could not.
Love this episode. Calvinists know.....Grace can't be grace, love can't be love, sin can't be sin and a gift is not a gift without FREEwill. None have EVER explained otherwise. The're lives are lived that way, every day, except...... in relation to their god. That's the Truth
I have to agree with David Bentley Hart, Augustine should have stopped writing 20 years before he did.
White never argues his point, just criticizes what decrees is not true or crazy to him.
Sad. This is where the cultic aspect of Calvinism begins to show its ugly little face. The neurotic gaslighting..
God constantly calls us to choose and to believe. God also separates the wicked from the just even in the Old Testament and that is based on their choice
Right?
How do all of these people come to believe that people are punished for somebody else's choice? This is so unbiblical and nonsensical. This is where the cultic aspect of Calvinism shows.
Heres why White is highly unlikely to leave Calinism: Pride.
White was taught his beliefs as a child.
Then he attends seminary with same beliefs.
Then he receives a doctorate, in theology.
Then he bcomes a pastor, teaching his beliefs.
Then he becomes a public minister, teaching both in front of christian audiences, and on the Internet.
Then White, writes books, distributed world wide.
Then he establishes a podcast defending calvinist beliefs.
Then he debates, anti-calvinists, publically.
So while my order of events may be incorrect, the events happened.
White is invested in his beliefs; its his ministery career for 30-40 years or more.
Keep in mind the significance of a "public," ministry career, compared to the ordinary, non public, church attending christian.
So, to understand Whites continued behavior, one must understand the consequences White would suffer if he were to abandon his Calvinist beliefs, if he were to retract his beliefs. Im not excusing his choices, but presenting why I'm convinced he will never change course.
Pride.
Its a rare human, humble enough, to admit they are wrong....but particularly difficult for a "public," person. It's human fear of losing face, embarrassment, and loss of a career built on calvinist beliefs.
I am not sugessting a change is impossible, but rather, highly unlikely.
I just wanna know what his explanation of the origin of Lucifers heart is. How did Lucifer rebel?
Kent Hovind is the only person I can think of besides Leighton Flowers himself.
James White is stuck in a bubble that he obviously can't see outside of anymore , if ever he ever could. He spits his presups out as if they're absolute proven facts and does it in such an annoying condescending manner .
just like John Calvin
@fantasia55
James White wishes he was Calvin I'm sure I think . Lol . People actually got jail time for not addressing Calvin as Master upon meeting him . He was a murderer and used GOD'S HOLY NAME to justify his evil sinful deeds
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 Damn is this true? Is there anywhere I can specific find this
@Zangified02
Watch your language kid . Then come talk to me .
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 did you read my comment properly, there was nothing said against you I was asking sincerely.
Reading the Book of Obadiah must be especially perplexing for a Calvanist. One would suppose they would have to literally change the words in such a way that it would support their theology . . .
Wow! I'm rereading Obadiah tonight! Thanks..
We love Dr Ken, thanks for your work and time on these issues..
After learning so much about Calvin's teaching and what the current reformed church teaches, I am convinced it is a cult. I followed McGaurther for a long time after being raised in an Armenian perspective. As I learned more and More about McGaurther and Sproul's teaching, the God that I loved and followed since I was 5 years old had begun to go away and seemed to be replaced by an evil unscriptural "god". My prayer life dwindld, why pray if God has decreed everything. My kids ministry seemed less important, after if they aren't elected why bother? I felt empty and confused. So many questions unanswered left up to mystery. As the Lord began to open the truth of the scriptures to me and the false teaching of TULIP, I have now realized these people do not worship the same God as written about in the Bible and even though they trust their form of "Jesus", it is not the same Jesus who died for the sins of the world, olny for the elect. This is no different than how Jehovah's witness and Mormons have a separate "Jesus" they have molded to their false doctrine. I understand we have friends and family who are Calvinists, but we shouldn't continue to encourage them as just being wrongly informed about certain scriptures and brothers in Christ. We need to boldly call them out and preach the truth in love, let them know that they are believing a false gospel and the need to be free from this cult. Repent and truly believe in the one true Jesus as written about in the Bible. -Whoever adds to HIS word will be accursed.
I am now a Provisionist and Praise the Lord Jesus for helping me to understand the scriptures in context!
Thank you Leighton for your ministry ❤
Why bother. Haha. God said so. That’s not good enough? You don’t save others. Or yourself. When I hear what you say - it’s called creating your own god.
How is it a false gospel?? Do you know the gospel? I’m afraid you don’t.
Thank you for sharing!! My son is lost in Calvinism for years ! And to tell you the truth the evidence that his passion and prayer life seems forced and without purpose.. believing for the scales to come off! thanks again
@@mont9380 Calvinism isn’t false. False is not seeing its basis in Scripture. The entire Bible supports it clearly.
If anything is forced - that’s a spiritual issue not related to Calvinism.
Let me ask you - did you choose God to be saved or did God choose you?
Great comment. Calvinism is a cult like JW and Mormons.
Love this video. Great insight. Calvinist teaching is teaching from man's interpretation. They forget 2Peter 1:20-21. We should all test everything in light of God's word. Too many today forget Revelation 22:18-19. Jesus is my Glory and the Glory of all who BELIEVE. ❤
Blessings from Finland !
SO looking forward to your debate with James White!
And of course, remember to approach it with love and humility Leighton.
Much love brother!
There’s another debate coming?
@@ethankeating1644in March…I think the 7th
I have asked the question Dr. Wilson posits many time: Where in the Bible is "sovereignty" defined as "complete divine control of every event including the thoughts, desires and choices of every sentient being?" think they use the term sovereignty because it SOUNDS like it honors God who is a SOVEREIGN but it does not answer what KIND of sovereign He is nor does it describe HOW He has chosen to rule His creation.
According to the dictionary DETERMINISM is defined [without Christianized language] as: " the doctrine that ALL EVENTS, [including human ACTION thought and desire], are determined by CAUSES EXTERNAL to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have NO FREE WILL and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions."
Scary you all believe God isn’t in control. You can’t have it both ways. Nobody said complete control over thoughts. Why do you add your own views?
@HappyPenguin75034 demonstrate how God can't be in control without controlling everything.
Its all about integrity.Augustine as a religious man can never be trusted with his opinion and so does the murderer Calvin.
So James White basically believes that if you don’t believe in Calvinism then you have a secular mindset? So because I don’t believe God determines or decrees every sickness and disease in the world, then I must be worldly? That’s hilarious
I have such a hard time listening to white !! His defense for his position (every time I've heard him) is so so weak, jus blows my mind !!
I have the same kind of revulsion. And it's not the theology, it's the prideful, snarky, flailing child. It's really painful to watch. 🫤
James White so bombastic, if I were an unsaved enquirer, I would deny every claim he made and hopefully meet up with a true Believer😮
We're saved by God's grace, alone, through our faith in Christ, alone.
"No serious scholar = No true Scotsman"
Need observation but that's actually appeal to Authority, not no true Scotsman. The reason being, there's undeniable credentials that someone can achieve to be "true."
Excellent discussion today! Thank you!!
Great video!! Looking forward to your debate with White in March. I hope it’s streamed somehow!
I like Ken Wilson as a fellow believer in Free Grace theology.
Is Dr. Wilson free grace theology???
@@gregorylatta8159 Yes
Excellent dialogue
Thanks Leighton and Ken....I hear axes getting sharpened across the world
I would love a list (I'm sure it's a short one) of preachers, teachers that I can listen to that are NOT dispensationalist Calvinists.. WHO out there on UA-cam is teaching TRUTH without Calvinism??
Derek Prince, Carter Conlon, David Wilkerson, David Pawson, Tozer, T Austin Sparks, Watchman Nee, Wesley, Leonard Ravenhill, Michael Brown, Finney, to name just a few. You may not want to listen to them, of course, but that is your problem.
As for Southern Baptists, the prominent, now deceased preacher, Dr. Adrian Rogers, was a non-Calvinist. Re-broadcasts of his program, "Love Worth Finding," is still in distribution.
@@theelizabethan1Excellent pastor.
Where did Augustine’s meticulous providence originate? Was it divine revelation? I doubt it. …Stoicism [etc]…exactly as I stated”
That sums up all the logic of this discussion. Dr Wilson will not allow for the context of Augustine’s transformation, which he doesn’t seem to want to fully comprehend and acknowledge, by referencing his past as a defining and unchanging experience in Manichaeism.
I was once a charismatic and word of faith follower, but I’m now against all the wrong teachings while acknowledging the aspects that are biblical. The key word being biblical. If Augustine has left his old beliefs so must we in defining him and not trying to force anachronistically a context to his position apart from the way he said he got it, from the word!
It’s funny that in trying to comment one of the prompts asked that we address the argument rather than the person, but that’s exactly what this entire ‘short’ video was doing. Augustine’s arguments are from scripture. Address that, and stop straw manning his position.
Nevertheless, it is irrelevant if in some sort of twisted way a good position can be argued from a human perspective to understand the text, it still doesn’t make the argument invalid simply by it sounding like something we detest. That’s a genetic fallacy being used to deny God’s word.
What’s more important, and hasn’t yet been proven otherwise, is that God is sovereign, and man isn’t. God does what He pleases, and man does sin as he pleases, yet not to the total extent of his depravity but is constantly being restrained by God until he is left to himself in eternal damnation if he isn’t saved.
God, who knows the end from the beginning isn’t compelled by an external force, which includes man’s ‘free will’ to create all who will eventually reject him, even though He already knows who it is who will reject and those He has chosen in Him from before the world began, for the Lord knows those who are His and who it is that does not believe.
But how does anyone believe? Rom 10:14-15 tells us; the ones whom God has first sent the preach to preach the word they hear, and by hearing they believe and then are able to call on the name of the Lord and be saved. It begins with God sending all preachers to the one who will believe what he hears. For how shall they preach unless they are sent?
If there’s any that isn’t determined then how do you explain anything? Where do those things originate in an ultimate sense from? We can debate the efficient causes by man which is the responsibility aspect of the complimentary nature of our actions but that doesn’t negate the fact that while we are the efficient causes God is still sovereign in spite of and not due to our actions.
I would legitimately like to get answers to some of the questions I have asked above.
Needless to say, this conversation didn’t provide anything but an echo chamber to provisionism in my opinion. Prove me wrong.
*WHY THE CALVINIST TREATS THE DOCTRINE AS-IF IT IS FALSE*
1) An infallible decree - by its very nature - does not grant ALTERNATIVES from that which is decreed
2) For example:
If it is decreed that [X] will be TRUE at TIME-T
Then that decree *INFALLIBLY EXCLUDES* the option of [X] NOT being TRUE at TIME-T.
3) The very existence of any ALTERNATIVE from that which was decreed - would countervail that decree. And a decree which is infallible cannot be countervailed.
4) Therefore NO ALTERNATIVES from that which is decreed are granted existence within creation.
5) Therefore - NO ALTERNATIVES exist for any Calvinist to choose between.
6) For example:
If it is decreed that Calvinist_A will perform SIN_X at TIME-T
Then that decree *INFALLIBLY EXCLUDES* the option of Calvinist_A NOT performing SIN_X at TIME-T
7) Calvinist_A NOT performing SIN_X at TIME-T would countervail the decree
A decree which is infallible cannot be countervailed.
Therefore - the option of Calvinist_A NOT performing SIN_X at TIME-T is not granted existence within creation.
THUS IT FOLLOWS:
Per the doctrine - for every human event - and every human impulse - an infallible decree grants *ONLY ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN OPTION*
Man is granted *NO CHOICE* in the matter of what that option will be and *NO ABILITY* to refrain.
THE DILEMMA FOR THE POOR UNFORTUNATE CALVINIST:
It is humanly impossible to live coherently with such a doctrine and at the same time retain any sense of human normalcy.
There is no such thing as a human having a CHOICE between ALTERNATIVES
ALTERNATIVES do not exist for humans to choose between.
THAT IS WHY
Every Calvinist is forced to assert the doctrine as TRUE
While simultaneously treating the doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE.
And since the poor Calvinist is taught the doctrine is what scripture teaches him
It follows - the poor Calvinist is forced to treat what scripture teaches him *AS-IF* it is FALSE.
The most hard-core and miserable Calvinist I've met told me that he HAS to believe like a Calvinist and evangelise like an Arminianist - he got the quote from somewhere because I'd heard it before. He had absolutely no joy in his life and I think his faulty beliefs were, in part, responsible for this.
@@godsstruggler8783 DW: If a Calvinist told me that - I would thank him for the degree of honesty with which me maintains himself.
That degree of honesty is unusual for most Calvinists - because most of them tell themselves - they are not being dishonest if they are being dishonest about the doctrine.
It's obvious that they twist terms and make it up as they go . Ad hoc rationalization stemming from narcegesis
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 DW: Very insightful!
Here is an example:
John Calvin
-quote
When [Augustine] uses the term “Permission” *THE MEANING WHICH HE ATTACHES TO IT* will best appear from a single passage (De Trinity. lib. 3 cap. 4), where he proves that the will of god is the supreme and primary *CAUSE* of all things….(Institutes 1, 16, 8)
Every language within every human society will STANDARDIZE the meanings of words the same way they STANDARDIZE the values of coins - in order to prevent people from being deceived by words with hidden meanings - the same way they would be cheated by coins with hidden values.
He who can alter the values of coins for every transaction - gains the advantage over the person he exchanges with. This is what scripture calls - operating from a FALSE BALANCE.
In Calvinism - the Calvinist refuses to subject himself to STANDARDS because they are STANDARDS of man - and he does not conform himself to human STANDARDS.
This permits him to alter the meanings of words whenever it serves his purpose to gain an advantage.
Thus as Calvin states Augustine is free to alter the meanings of words by *ATTACHING* whatever meaning he wants to them.
Here - *CAUSE* is the meaning *ATTACHED* to the word “Permit”
The Calvinist does not want to say his god *CAUSES* every sinful evil impulse that will come to pass within the human mind.
So he takes the word "Permit" which he knows people will accept and he alters its meaning to mean *CAUSE*
1) What Calvin's god CAUSES by divine decree - he permits
2) What Calvin's god does not CAUSE by divine decree - he does not permit.
This allows Calvinists like John Piper and John MacArthur etc - to tell people - Calvin's god "Permits" sinful evil impulses.
While obfuscating the fact that what he means is *CAUSE*
@@godsstruggler8783 That saying goes back a long way. Calvinists learned long ago that if they preached Calvin to unbelievers it didn't produce any Calvinists, only rightfully horrified unbelievers who were doubly resolved not to have anything to do with such ghastly doctrines. That was when they adopted the saying that your Calvinist acquaintance quoted. By insincerely preaching the actual Biblical gospel and initially hiding their own disbelief in it, they can sometimes convert unbelievers into new Christians, who have an ill-founded trust in the Calvinist and are then vulnerable to being brainwashed into Calvinism. In recent years, many Calvinists have adopted a "work smarter, not harder" approach. They infiltrate unwary non-Calvinist churches filled with low-information Christians and use a combination of fancy-sounding theological terms and shameless flattery to deceive the unwary into accepting Calvinism. Jesus' rebuke to the scribes and the Pharisees rings true for Calvinists as well. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." (Matthew 23:15)
Five seconds in - here’s your Bible verses. “I declare the end from the beginning”
“Him who works all things according to the counsel of his own will”
Romans 9:14 addresses the human reaction of declaring God unjust for His free choices. This doesn’t mean you don’t choose things, rather God is so big that He works all things according to his will through your free decisions. This was all written down hundreds of years ago in the WCF but people are not taught historical doctrine so arguments against straw men are all to common on these topics. “deterministic Calvinism” is already a straw man by the phraseology. It assumes man has no choice, which the reformers clearly taught the opposite, just that man’s will is fallen and sinful, which always leads us to choose the wrong thing until Christ’s spirit comes to us and bears fruit in us (John 15:5). We can do nothing apart from Him.
Exactly. Leighton has been corrected on that "deterministic" straw man, but he persists in presenting it. Some unsuspecting folks get roped into defending the straw men Leighton constructs, unfortunately, which adds to the overall confusion.
Agreed 👍 A pattern I've seen as well in these sorts of discussions is that they fail to distinguish between the human perspective and God's perspective. We can say that from God's perspective, all things are decreed, but yet as that decree acts out in time from our perspective we make real choices that are in line with the divine decree. There's a failure to link God's sovereignty with foreknowledge, nature of creation, creaturely wills etc.
If they were consistent with their exegesis and philosophy, they would arrive at open theism.
But you don't believe in free decisions, so it can't possibly be as you claim. These free decisions are actually prescribed decisions. Sure, we can conceive of other decisions, but we don't have the freedom to make them. (Under Calvanism)
Why do you presuppose that the council of God's will could not possibly invole allowing people to truly, freely accept or reject him of their own accord?
How is it that you come to conclude that God, before creation, was incapable of saying, "I want to filter my creation according to its uncoerced allegiance to me," while knowing that only a small percent of that creation would choose him? What verse says that God didn't determine to do that?
Your interpretation of passages like these make some big (unfounded) assumptions.
Thanks finally someone is using the bible.
So you fully accept specific determinism? That did not come out of a vacuum.
John Calvin: "Augustine is so much at one with me that, if I wished to write a confession of my faith, it would abundantly satisfy me to quote wholesale from his writings."
John Calvin: "Augustine is so much at one with me that, if I wished to write a confession of my faith, it would abundantly satisfy me to quote wholesale from his writings."
Meticulous determinism is poison to Christianity
It truly is. It quenches Evangelical fervor. We should be straining to pursue every possible soul, not just speaking the gospel and leaving them to be damned.
Rescue those who are being taken away to death, and those who are staggering to slaughter. Oh, hold them back!
Proverbs 24:11
A PhD in Biblical illiteracy!!! Paul: “In the last days, there will be some who are bent on leading many astray - although well learnt, they are just not able to come to the knowledge of the Truth” - 2Tim 3:1-7
You’re taking that verse out of context. Paul is talking about the gospel there.
@@billlythekid5780 Oh really? Please explain and also - how do you understand ‘the gospel’?
@@billlythekid5780 In 2Timothy 3:1-9, Paul gives a very specific eschatological perspective of the things that must be expected in the LAST DAYS (Gk. eschatais hēmerais), (which began with the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost - Act 2:17), and explicitly warns against the emergence of FALSE TEACHERS - those who claim to know God, but whose lives are devoid of the work of the Spirit (which would have resulted in holiness, perseverance, and effectiveness in advancing God’s kingdom) - this accurately describes men like Leighton Flowers and Ken Wilson who insist on asserting the ‘sovereignty of man’ over the sovereignty of God!
Paul instructs that such people are to be avoided…
@@osksWell congratulations sir you just earned your PHD....in the field of missing the point. Nobody says "The "Sovereignty of man" that's not a thing that any provisions has ever used. Stop lying.
Furthermore man is not "Sovereign" because God gives him 2 options "You either be punished for your crimes" or "turn to Christ" that's a lie.
Furthermore the Bible never says that if you don't believe that God determines everything that you're not saved and are leading people astray. Stop making crap up. You're pet doctrines are not the Gospel.
It doesn't matter whether you like them. Knock it off.
Right. Illiterate.
Good work, men. Faithful men and women are staying true to our God though the swarms attack us outside and inside the Church.
Great program!
Fate and Calvinism make excellent bedfellows!!!
Seeing how successful the relentless campaign against the false teaching of "the Prosperity Gospel" has been in keeping that out of many churches, why can't the same approach be taken with the (at least) equally destructive and false teaching of Calvinism?
I realize that the false teaching of Calvinism has been rooted more deeply (for centuries in many church denominations) than prosperity teaching, but why can't we at least consider it and deal with it the same way as "Prosperity Gospel" is treated?
Exactly what I've been thinking. It's a corrective pendulum swing, and unfortunately jumping onto a pre-existing theology which is just bad.
This is correct. I think it is a logical fallacy that a Calvinist would argue with anyone for the fact that the differing opinion it was predetermined.
Calvinism provides a platform for the atheist
It is the perfect strawman for atheists to debunk Christianity with, along with a sprinkling of Dante’s Inferno.
Which is why someone who fell once from heaven invented it.
Agreed!
One of the central tenets of new atheism is the complete lack free will and the inability to choose our actions. Islam and some sects of Gnosticims, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Shintoism teach the same thing. You can be a Calvinist without even believing in Christ.
@@ThroughTheKJVBibleInOneYear Exactly! Exhibit A: Tyler Vela!
I think it is important to notice that the Old Testament is not deterministic and the New Testament and Christ’s teachings are absolutely prepared by the Old Testament..
After much study of Calvinistic doctrines I've come to know that while Jesus said "you will know my disciples their love," I've come to believe that I know a reformer by. "the beards they grow, the cigars they smoke, the whiskey they drink and the caps they wear"!!
The more I see their videos the more I've come to see that many of them are nothing more than 'posers'.
I attend what has become a calvinist leaning church, and the pastor has a sometimes potty mouth and is condescending to any other expression of Christianity. Trying to figure out how to get me and my wife out with the minimal damage to relationships..
Christians identifying with the reformed movement amazes me. Why do Christians align modern churches to churches that came out of the reformation and not want to align with the early church.
Whenever I hear a Calvinist, like James white, even say the words God’s character, I cringe. If Calvinism is true,
God’s character is utterly evil.
It is evil to you because it violates your idol of free will.
@@Logos-Nomos love has to encompass free will. Love is not forced
@@knxcholx People dead to God have no will. They are dead. Got it? Dead people have no free will. People who are slaves to their sin have no free will. God's love isn't conditional upon them making a choice. He loves whom He will love and hardens those who, by their fallen nature, hate and resist Him. Jesus loved Hs Church, the Bride, not those who are NOT His Bride. He gave Himself for her and died for her. He redeemed her from the slavery of sin and gave her the will to choose. Your god is free will, not the King of kings and Lord of lords.
@@Logos-Nomos explain Lucifer's rebellion with your god
@@knxcholx Lucifer is the father of lies and he fully supported Eve's choice to naked her will above that of God's. Your god is no more powerful than Lucifer.
What happened to love God and your neighbor as yourself..?
How does calvinism line up with that commandant all?
Hasta hace una década pensaba q el determinismo de Calvino tenía su raíz en la filosofía de su época, como Liebniz o de los nuevos descubrimientos de la física de Newton (llevadas a las últimas consecuencias como un mecanisismo espiritual); hoy después de leer a Paul Ricoeur y su re-interpretación del simbolismo del mal creo q la concepción determinista de Calvino está enraizada en el folclore de la mitología europea
When I was a kid, I used to listen to that Judas Priest song "Green Manichean (with a Two-Pronged Crown)".
Oh, wait. It was Manalishi, not Manichean. lol
10:53 allowed and caused is 2 entirely different things
Isaiah 46:10
[10] declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
That was more like cargo shorts and not regular shorts. Maybe even capris.
😂
James White mocks with a robot voice while preaching a robotic doctrine.
Calvin referenced Augustine around 430 times in his first edition of his Institutes.
Calvin was a Roman Catholic who still clung to the Sacraments on his death bed. I don't know why people refer to him as a Christian?
Roman Catholicism is founded on Augustinianism.
It's founded on romanism.
Why would you asset that Calvin was a Roman Catholic? That is absurd. Have you studied any history of the Reformation? Calvin was THE leader of the Reformation in Geneva, quite opposed to Rome.
@@chaddonal4331 .... *was* ... pretty basic word was clearly used
Augustin is the Father of modern Catholicism, and the Catholic church has a special holiday in honor of him.
@@chaddonal4331Hello sir. Understand that Luther was also a Roman Catholic and, initially, never had any intention to to leave the church or start a major new thing.
This was in fact the water they were swimming in.
If Calvinist reasoning is true about what the Bible says, then, all men have repented and turned to God and the world will be judges in righteousness and not wickedness. If God gives command, then that is what will happen.
Acts, chapter 17, verses 26-31
"26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."
James White is a willfully ignorant man. Ephesians 1 is talking about the church both in heaven and on the earth.
Was 1Kings 22:19-35 influenced by Stoicism? it seems to be presenting personal determinism.
It might very well present that.
Our point is that it's not God's default modus operandi.
There are some things God has determined, and some things he has not.
The problem lies in the arguments that God has determined every single thing, which we don't find to be biblical.
From the opening line, hasn't that "Oxford PhD" read the Bible? The answer is Ephesians 1:10-11.
In Ephesians 1:11, we see that God “works all things according to the counsel of His will.” This “all things,” according to verse 10 includes all things in the heavens and all things on the earth. And according to Colossians 1:16, this “all things” both in the heavens and on earth includes all things “visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities,” so it isn't just physical things, but also actions, circumstances, and even the thoughts and wills of men (Cf. Psalm 105:25, Revelation 17:17), including the evil actions of men (Cf. 2 Samuel 12:11-12).
The word translated into English as “work” is the transitive verb “ἐνεργέω” (energeo), which, as a transitive verb, it has a direct object (“all things”) and it means “to effect” that direct object. Since all “effects” must have a sufficient cause, this passage quite literally makes God the ultimate cause of all things in heaven and on earth. The same transitive verb construction is seen in Ephesians 1:19, 1 Corinthians 12:6, 11, Galatians 3:5, Philippians 2:13; see Thayer’s, pg. 215.
I enjoyed the discussion, but it is extremely difficult to critique someone if we get only partial clips of James Whites conversation
Atheism is preferable to believing in Calvinism. The God of John Calvin is worse than the devil
Room temperature IQ. Repent.
That's a terrible attitude to have. Calvinists still trust in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins; if you'd rather be an atheist than believe that if Calvinism were true then you have some serious issues.
@@LawlessNateYour sins? God in Calvinism has predestined your sins and then punishes you for committing them. He even predestined Adam to fall. The atonement is also viewed as limited to a few elect; everyone else is punished for sins they could not have avoided committing. It’s madness.
@@luisovalle0309That was said by Professor D B Hart, one of the most intelligent thinkers in the world today. Calvinism is completely folly
@@luisovalle0309how does an insult about people’s IQ, followed with a call to repentance work?
Still waiting for White and Wilson’s debate
Along with Jeremiah 19:5; 1 John 2:16; we can add Jeremiah 32: 35; 7:31. And yes, the ESV translation of the Hebrew word DBR, almost always occurring in the Pi'el/factitive stem, is properly translated decree. It is the word to speak, which in this stem means to put into a state of having been spoken, which in application means that it will happen, that is, it is decreed. Despite the inferiority of the ESV translation, which the reformed camp loves, they got this right.
James White has never been impressive. He is an inferior voice in the reformed camp. I've heard him say some really uneducated things, misrepresenting what other Christians believe.. If I were still a Calvinist, he would be the laughing Stock of the Calvinist camp in my opinion. And John MacArthur isn't much better, making some very uneducated statements about groups that disagree with him. James White is the Chris Davis of the reformed camp. Popular, had an initial impact, but can't hit his way out of a wet paper bag. Frankly, I actually don't think he's that educated at all. One can have a doctorate and not know what he is talking about.
And as for Augustine, I have never understood why he has been so popular and so trusted. His determinist thinking was actually on the level of federal vision. But even if one says it was not, why in the world does the Roman Catholic Church like a guy with whom they have extreme disagreement and sociology? Augustine was not influential because he knew what he was talking about, but because he had some sort of other effect of influence. I think he was more of a political player than people want to admit.
Thanks for the references. Jeremiah 19:5 is good verse to use with a Calvinist:
"They have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I never commanded (decreed) nor spoke, nor did it come into My mind."
If they want that verse to be an example of one of God's "decrees", it actually is the opposite.
That verse says that these people did things that God "never decreed nor spoke". That verse diametrically opposes their false teaching that God decrees all things that come to pass.
Genuinely asking ( not trying to provoke). Aren't we DEAD in our sins? Don't we sin because of our sin nature? If we can choose to follow Christ / God of our own accord...then why did Christ die? Grace is unmerited/ unearned favor. What overcomes a person's sin nature? Isn't it Christ?
Dead in our sins…. We are spiritually in a dead state. We aren’t physically dead yet. One must respond to the calling of the Holy Spirit to trust in the Son or else you will remain dead in your sins.
Who gave you the idea that being "dead in sin" means one is unable to accept God's pardon? In English, we have the terminology of "sentenced to death" - the Bible uses one word "death" to sometimes mean "sentenced to death". When God showed up to Abimelech and told him "You are a dead man" - this does not mean Abimelech is metaphysically unable to respond to God or that he is literally dead, God was conveying "you are a man who is sentenced to death". In English we have the term "condemned". A condemned prisoner means a prisoner who has received the death penalty. The clearest reference in the Bible to convey that "death" can mean "condemned"/"sentenced to death" is John 5:24. In John 5:24-25 those who are condemned, have the ability to positively respond to Jesus - receiving life is conditional on hearing (which means obeying) Jesus. God or Jesus does not determine who gets to obey in this passage. Thus properly understanding Ephesians 2:1 to mean "And you were SENTENCED TO DEATH in your trespasses and sins" removes the false inability doctrine. Ephesians 2:1-5 is contrasting "sentenced to death" with "eternal life" as per language of John 5:24 which has "life = eternal life".
[If we can choose to follow Christ / God of our own accord...then why did Christ die?]
God sent Jesus to die to give a provision. In John 3:14, just as God provided the bronze serpent as a provision for healing, God also provided the blood of Jesus by means of the cross, as a provision of salvation. "God provides the provision, human has to positively respond to it" is not a difficult concept.
[Grace is unmerited/ unearned favor. ]
Wrong. Grace means favor. Merited or unmerited is a false dilemma. There are conditional favors. There are unconditional favors. You being alive now is an unconditional favor.
These are the verses that prove some favor from God are conditional.
a) Humility condition - Proverbs 3:34, 1 Peter 5:5-6, James 4:6-7
b) Knowledge of God condition - 2 Peter 1:2
[What overcomes a person's sin nature? Isn't it Christ?]
You receive the Holy Spirit and Jesus to overcome your sin desire. You obey God first before you receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:32).
@japheth7000 Ephesians 2:1 the Greek is means dead/ corpse. Not sentenced. Thats where that came from.
@@samvogel2368 but.. we aren’t dead corpses.. we are alive and have thinking minds that are capable of hearing arguments and making informed decisions. Not everything in the Bible is literal, the meanings are literal, but context often points to symbolism/metaphors/etc. We were once dead in sin. Meaning we spiritually WERE like dead corpses. But now we have LIFE thru hearing and believing of the gospel.
@@samvogel2368
I assumed you would have recognized the content of John 5:24 when I quoted John 5:24 to you. Since you are clueless, let me quote it now.
John 5:24
“Truly, truly I say to you, whoever hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life and shall not come into condemnation, but has passed from death into life.
CONDEMNATION = Death
Eternal life = Life
The Bible can use the word "death" to mean "condemnation/condemned". Death in the Bible is context dependent and the word death does not always mean "unresponsive". Ephesians 2:1 does not say “sentenced to death” word for word in the Greek because this is an English language construct. My point is that the Bible sometimes uses one word “death” to convey the message of “sentenced to death” - THIS IS CLEARLY PROVEN IN JOHN 5:24.
In English, a criminal who has been “condemned” means a criminal who has received the death penalty. There is another term to convey "sentenced to death" to speak of a criminal who has received the death sentence, that is “dead man walking”. “Dead man walking” means a criminal who has received the death sentence but is not yet executed.
Also, you are making the mistake to assume that someone who is sentenced to death is executed immediately therefore immediately unresponsive. That is not how it works.
John 5:25
Truly, truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
In John 5:25, when the “condemned”/”dead men walking” hear the voice of Jesus and among those who choose to hear (obey), will be freed from the “death penalty” and have eternal life.
Don’t use Ephesians 2:1 to prove your false theology.
There is no such thing as spiritual death in the Bible. There is not a single verse in the Bible that says it.
The correct category is whether or not you have the Holy Spirit.
Woooo! Members only 😎
I thought, "oh man, I wish I was a member!" Then I remembered I am 😂
Nice to be cool, isn't it?
I just wonder, if creation was finished on the 6th day then what's with the micromanaging?
21:32
How did the Precepts of Calvinism enter Christianity? Might I suggest looking at the Cathar Book of the Two Principles?
Um… that’s what they’re explaining.
@@AnnetteHauck-y1f True, but they could have gone deeper. Hence, my hint.
I lean heavily towards Provisionist / Traditionalist-Southern Baptist soteriology, being very blessed by Soteriology 101 and similar ministries in their pointing out the errors of Calvinism. I am not a scholar of any sort, just a layman who has done his best studying the Scriptures and apologetics for over 30 years, with the last few years looking more at Church history. I was quite saddened at first when I noticed fellow believers on S101 pointing out potential errors of Ken Wilson; I dismissed them at first. Though I first learned from Dr. Wilsons book that Augustine was the first major purveyor of the Exhaustive Divine Determinism adhered to by Calvinists, it was pointed out to me by these other believers, not only that other scholars already knew that Augustine was the main proponent of this Determinism (though heavily influenced by Marius Victorinus), which is fundamental to Calvinism, but that there were errors by Dr. Wilson, discovered not by Calvinists (as one might expect), but by Lutherans and Arminian / Baptists! These gentlemen acknowledge Augustine’s later Determinism, but contend against various inaccuracies concerning the universality of early infant baptism and not a few other issues concerning the Early Church. Sadly, I discovered the truth of this in my own research. Now knowing these things, I feel that this could be detrimental to the S101 ministry, and I certainly don’t want to see that happen
I think I know what provisionist means but what does traditionalist refer to?
@@MultipleGrievance I sent a reply, but it looks like it didn't post?
@nickl.3137
No I don't see anything besides this post saying you sent a reply
[Dan 4:24-25, 31-32 ESV] 24 this is the interpretation, O king: It is a decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king, 25 that you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. You shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and you shall be wet with the dew of heaven, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will. ... 31 While the words were still in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, "O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: The kingdom has departed from you, 32 and you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. And you shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will."
[Dan 4:34-37 ESV] 34 At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; 35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" 36 At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and splendor returned to me. My counselors and my lords sought me, and I was established in my kingdom, and still more greatness was added to me. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to humble.
I read the Bible that has Job chapters 1 & 2 in it.
We often leave out the Spiritual aspect, component with false doctrine. Extra biblical theology that causes doubt & fatalism is not from God.
Drive home from church:
"Gee Dear, your quiet?"
"Do you agree with what the new Pastor is teaching?"
"Well, he says it's how salvation really works, but he's right about it being a hard pill to swallow"
"Then I don't want to try for a boy...I don't want to have anymore children. I won't be a part of conceiving & birthing a soul that might be pre-ordained to destruction...by God's divine decree?? My Grandfather never preached anything like that. How can that come from the same bible?"
👿 "Hath God indeed said?"
Maybe I am wrong but what I gather from calvinism is that God is a monster(but they believe He is still good), they quinch and at times reject the Holy Spirit(which is also extremely bad/dangerous, and they create a stumbling block for christians and unbelievers alike. This is not good. Though I agree that many can/are saved. It is is a dangerous way which is not leading us correctly.
Yes your wrong read your Bible. Thank you
@johnpeavey6557 Stop taking verses out of the Bible such as seeking earnestly after the gifts. Thank you.
How anyone listens to White, follows him, or nods at his circular arguments is a head-scratcher.
They follow him for the same reasons people still follow the ridiculous ravings of Joseph Smith or the Watchtower Society. Either they were raised in it and are too afraid to shake free and embrace the truth, or they were bamboozled into it when older and are too proud to admit they got scammed.
When it comes to his non-calvinistic related content he is pretty good actually.
But he gets irrational when it comes to defending Calvinism
@@awesomefacepalm I kind of disagree; I can't think of one area where he actually shines. There are people that do it much better in every domain to the point I think he's a net negative. I suppose you could compliment the mile wide-inch deep aspect. But why would you settle for that when you can get actual experts in the topics. In the end I think the appeal is familiarity. I've seen people ask Leighton all sorts of non-soteriological questions, I'm guessing because they like him in this area and assume that level of expertise translates elsewhere and to his credit Leighton punts on those issues, especially if he feels he hasn't read enough on it. White just shoots from the hip.
@@EulersIdentityCrisis fair point, guess I haven't listened too much to him to notice
@@EulersIdentityCrisisyeah you must not be paying attention. White is a great defender of the gospel and is great at explaining it. He knows what he’s talking about, but you don’t like it. He already debunked Wilson’s book.
“Where in the bible does it say God determines the future”
Isaiah: “Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure”
Declaring is stating a fact out loud. A decree is to issue an authoritative command. How are these the same?
@@katierucker2870 exactly. They literally have different meanings
To be charitable to both Augustine & Calvin, it should be pointed out that there are pastoral objectives to their determinism - trying to get around the damnation of unbaptized infants and (Augustine) and the condemnation of Protestants in France (God determines your salvation, not the church who is condemning you as heretics). This does not make them correct, but does undermine the fact that they are somehow ‘just seeing what in Scripture.’ They tried to offer comfort, but made large hermeneutical & theological mistakes in doing so.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me as though Jesus himself couldn't stand micromanagers (the pharisees) when he walked among us.
Thank God Almighty that He is using His servants and His Spirit to purge the satanic slop of calvinism and arminianism from the body of Christ!
The easiest way to debunk White heresie:
Augustin was CATHOLIC... AUGUSTIN IS CATHOLIC CHURCH FATHER....why in the world is the Catholic church NOT FOLLOWING AUGUSTIN on this topic and teach "deterministic view" like Calvin?
Because Catholics know determinism was not a apostolic teaching or orthodox doctrine ....
This fact alone is Enough to show the idiocy of Calvinist...
Im impressed with scripture use.
Greek philosophy created the problem, losing the Hebrew roots of the prime concepts of God’s revelation have all worked together to bring about foul calvinism
Just a question..Can we hold Augustine's sinful past against him ?Not talking about the influences his past had...Beza who seems to have entrenched some thi gs had a sinful past...apparently something to do with pornographic poetry...When his enemies mentioned this...he apparently said..They deny me my conversion. Don't think I am a fan of Beza...but he had a point.Not referring to Augustines theology here...Not sure if this is the right place for this specific point. Thanks...appreciate the podcasts.
Augustine when he first converted followed the early church fathers and argued for free will against his former manichaean brethren.
He only went back to justify infant baptism.
Pelagius pointed out that Augustine was a false convert and was indeed teaching psuedoChristianity through the lens of Manechian gnosticism which is why Augustine then spent the next 10 years trying to destroy Pelagius. Pelagius was cleared and was only finally condemned a month before he died due to political pressure. Augustine was not a Christian. He was a rhetorician who wanted to be famous and jumped on the bandwagon of the popular new philosophy which was Christian philosophy--also already perverted by Stoicism, NeoPlutonic, and Aristotelian philosophy and not true Christianity--all the "Christian" rhetoricians were also false converts. It's all politics and philosophy --not Christianity. Most of them where homosexuals and/or pedophiles! They were Stoics, Plutonic, Aristotelian philosophers and gnostic cultists first and falsely professing Christians second. It's blatantly obvious if you're actually a Spirit-filled Christian.
Stop idolizing these demonized false converts who derailed the majority of Christianity for the next 1600 years! Stop idolizing any man! It only took 20 years after John died for those who he taught to go completely off the rails and we see that happen over and over again every time the Holy Spirit moves and issues a course correction--only takes a generation for that new sect to twist that into false doctrine. Luther did the same--his goal was to create Christian nationalism in Germany and make himself their pope and overthrow the Catholic ruled nations. He literally inspired NAZI Germany. He wasn't trying to teach us salvation by grace through faith alone--that's all propaganda and mythology which is now taught as church history in seminaries.
@@ReformedOrthodoxyPredestinationism is not the same as determinism.
@@ReformedOrthodoxy Determinism is in direct conflict with scripture. God himself has declared he has not decreed all things in a deterministic sense. He has allowed them and predestined them to be, but God has created free beings that He has given the ability to make free decisions apart from the force and coercion of God.
@@turkeybobjrHi Bob, do you have a book, chapter and verse? Thanks much!!
Luke 22:32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” 2Tim 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;.....I guess these sacred texts & countless texts alike, just don't count in Calvinism & im sorry to say but its the expected result of sola scriptura & worst of all, Calvinism teeters on blaspheming the Holy Spirit, calling our Good Holy Gracious Loving God & Savior the author of evil..its a problem
How does Luke 2232 help the free will position ? If Christ is not praying for your faith, it will fail, that is why he is an intercessor for us. John 17:9 Jesus explicitly says he prays not for the world but those that the father has given him.
@@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349 It doesnt help the osas position & if you would read the entirety of John 17, you wouldn't even present what you did...unless reading over the text....besides this, we can go to text after text that obliterates Calvinism in ever respect, as we explicitly see believers can fall away, many are righteous & that God has given the earth to the sons of men.
@@J-PLeigh8409 We also see that there people who are forever learning but NEVER coming into the knowledge of the truth, so salvation is based on intellect, or God's divine granting of revelation? I am not a Calvinist but that doesn't change the fact that you literally just typed an entire paragraph without articulating a single point - and this explains why you would be a Leighton fan. John 3 proves a man cannot perceive the Kingdom of God unless he is born again, so regeneration preceded faith - this on it's own makes sovereign Grace true, along with about 500 other verses or the entire bible itself. Why don't you start by giving me your exegesis on Ezekiel 36:26-28 in light of the free position.
@@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349 ok, so you clearly just want to argue & instead of being charitable & gracious such as a born again believer should, you just assert & could just ask & find out that Im not even subbed to this channel, maybe replied to 2 of his vids in my life & most importantly Im unapologetically Catholic, hence the reply at Sola Scriptura & its rotten fruit....exactly what your problematically revealing. You presented John 17:9 alone I believe, so why is it a problem Im telling you to read the entire chapter, exegeting easily & apart from one sentence, or should I copy & paste the ch? You Protesters lack reading comprehension & have to dismiss various sacred texts to form doctrine, its a house of cards. Also, we hold to regenerative baptism just as holy Scripture & Christs authoritative Church teaches & Ezekiel prophetically implies thru baptism. I don't even know your attempted point w/ the Ezekiel text
The cure to any verse used to support Calvinism: keep reading! Context kills Calvinism.
Although I love everything you do, I think Leyton and this other guy are coming from either a place of compassion as former calvinist (Layton), misunderstanding or outright cowardice. Devout Calvinist(more specifically those who teach and hold to it) are not brothers since they diminish the power of the cross to save, they turn God into a monster and their is no purpose for Satan in there doctrine and I can Go on and on... they don't hold to the same gospel therefore they are not Christians.
The Divine Determinism Trap: If God is recognized as the sole Creator, Designer, Implementer, and Sustainer of all that exists, then it logically follows that every element of creation is directly or indirectly caused by God. This predetermination by divine will means that all entities and outcomes within the universe are unalterably set, including human will. Consequently, any attempt to change this divinely orchestrated design through human speculation or intervention is inherently futile.
Help ! When is Flowers vs. White debate ??
March 7, 2024. I hope that this debate, unlike the Romans 9 debate, will spend the majority of its time in John 6 given the topic. I am hoping for less of a topical sermon and more of an analysis of the text defined in the debate topic.
@@miketisdale7341 Thank you from Finland !
The already had one Flowers was badly bested
James White was a rational man, but his irrational clinging to Calvinism is driving him into insanity.
Agreed, aside from that he seems like a very sharp mind.
It has to be true or else he isn't saved because total depravity says so.
That happens to me when I try to study about calvanist beliefs, I just stay away . I think God is telling me , "Don't even go there, or you will regret it. Makes my brain feel like mush.
The exposure of Calvinism isn’t new. It’s an innovation that has been seen as heresy contrary to the preserved teaching handed down by the apostles to the one Church as preserved in Eastern Orthodoy
It sounds like Augustine wholesale accepted the Stoics view of fatalism, but then baptized it theologically as being God’s providential decree - without any additional shift in meaning. As if the Stoics got it exactly right, except missing that God is behind the fatalism.
@soteriology101
Next study needs to be church fathers between Augustine and Calvin
Funny that white talked like a robot and yet he’s telling us God treats us like robots
If everything is decreed, then God has no freedom. God is not a free being, because God is forced to think and act for all eternity as he commanded himself to act and think before the foundations of the world. Determinism is absurd. God is a free being, it means he can do what he wants, it doesn't mean he is forced to do what he decreed himself to do.
What would be interesting would be that the Rapture happens tomorrow and James White realizes he's still here.
He would probably argue with God in reality poor Greek just before he’s cast into the unquenchable fire with all the”reprobates”
No You got it wrong
Está mi tosh tish tosh mosh pit glenflatish
god, I need to talk to your boss, you know….
King sovereignty
Did he pronounce Cicero as "Kikkero"?
In Latin, the letter C is pronounced as a K. It's been anglicized to the soft C, making that hard C pronunciation grate on our ears.
@@reformedpilgrimYep, in Classical Latin.
Then there's French Latin (from where British English took the "See-sero" or "Si-sero" pronunciation), German Latin, Ecclesiastical Latin and Medieval Latin.
The Italians took on the medieval Latin pronunciation. Today Italians call him "CHEE-CHERO".
In Italian, the letter "c" never has an "s" sound and has a "k" sound if the "c" is followed by a consonant, an "h" or any vowel other than "e" or "i".
[When the "c" is followed by "e" or "i" then the "c" is pronounced "ch"].