Praying The Imprecatory Psalms: Christians Should Hate Their Enemies AND Love Their Enemies
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- Опубліковано 18 жов 2024
- / reformationredpill
Should Christians hate their enemies? Can we pray like David prays in the imprecatory psalms?
On this week’s episode of The Reformation Red Pill Podcast Joshua Haymes, Brooks Potteiger, and Rich Lusk react to Pastor Joel Webbon’s comments at the New Christendom Press Conference. He said that he wanted to “crush his enemies & reward his friends.” On this episode, we will explore whether or not the Christian has Biblical precedence to use language like this by exploring the imprecatory psalms.
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Brilliant discussion. Thought I might add for those who don't know, Joel actually clarified a few days ago on his Wednesday livestream that our enemies should be God's enemies.
Thank you so much for this wonderful episode!!!
Had never heard your show, but have gotten a lot from Pastor Joel over the last few years. This was a great episode and you’ve got a new sub for it. Keep fighting the good fight!
This was outstanding. This kind of teaching is SO needed. I'm going to share this study with my congregation. Blessings, brothers.
What if hating the sinner is also at the same time loving them? Righteous hate is Godly because He does as well!
Great topic. Subbed.
This is such a great conversation...thank you!
I pray that it blessed you.
I love the example of imprecation in Nehemiah 4. Sanballat and Tobiah are mocking the "feeble Jews" for rebuilding the wall. And Nehemiah doesn't even respond. He turns to God and says, "Hear, O our God, for we are despised. Turn back their taunt on their own heads and give them up to be plundered in a land where they are captives. Do not cover their guilt, and let not their sin be blotted out from your sight, for they have provoked you to anger in the presence of the builders."
He recognizes that it's not himself being offended, but God. It's the blasphemy - the hatred of God - that makes him turn to imprecation. And then, what does he do? They get to work. Let it be so with us.
Great episode brothers
May those that love us, love us.
And those that don't love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if He doesn't turn their hearts,
May He turn their ankles,
So that we will know them by their limping.
😆An old Irish proverb- for enemies.
Amen
Having just finished preaching through Nehemiah, it's beyond clear that part of fidelity includes imprecation.
Pastor M! Safe travels. I'm sure Fresno will be getting imprecatory sincerity soon😊-BW
This was great
Finally!
Real Christians addressing and embracing the most powerful weapon ( yet least utilized...)
in the Church's arsenal:
imprecatory prayer.
For decades, people have looked at me with contempt when I cite the many Biblical passages that endorse imprecatory prayer.
In 1988, our pastor wrote and published the book:
HOW TO PRAY FOR A TERRORIST
This is great. Rich Lusk is 🔥
I’ve been hoping you guys would speak on this topic soon! The ability to think in categories, as you mentioned, is pivotal in this discussion. I’ll be joining your Patreon community. Really enjoying the content from this channel! Blessings fellas!
Looking forward to having you Cameron!
here are some Psalms with some synthwave sound ua-cam.com/video/hVSdzHfno54/v-deo.html&pp=iAQB
I just ordered a book called Psalms that curse by Sean McGowan And Valley of Vision
Exactly. Pastor is strong.
"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are : adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, HATRED....just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:19-21(emphasis mine)
I try to read through the Psalms each month, but I follow the One who fulfilled them at the cross. When I look at “Let God arise and let his enemies be scattered” through the Ephesians 6 lens, it’s clear that my enemies are in the spiritual realms, not flesh and blood. This is simple, love and bless is the call of disciples. When you love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, you are *then* a son of your Father in heaven. That means you show that you have His character. God is love! That’s the kind of Christianity that overthrew the Roman Empire! God bless you guys!
Christians are being imprisoned for praying in public. I'd say it's safe to pray imprecatory psalms regarding our government.
One must begin to understand that the curse of God is a gracious blessing unto all, especially the wicked… thus God said for thy sakes I curse the ground!
Thus to pray that the wicked would be made free of the curse, wrath and misery would be to pray that God would fatten them up like cattle ready for the slaughter…
Thus when God fearing men like king David pray, wanting curses, wrath and misery to fall upon the wicked…. all such prayers are to be always understood as redemptional in nature, and for the advancement of the kingdom of God in the earth.
The very functional marcionites you spoke about in the beginning, are out in full force in the comments 😂
Thanks, men, for a great conversation. It was several years ago that I began praying imprecatory psalms regarding the evildoers in our culture and government. That prompted me to study these prayers so foreign to how so many of us in contemporary Christianity have behaved.
Among imprecatory psalms in Psalm 83, there is a telling thought in verse 16: “Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O Lord.” That shows one motivation for imprecatory prayers - that the wicked will be so defeated they will seek God. And, of course, as you discussed, our overall attitude is to be one of kindness.
You all discussed David and the line between desiring personal vengeance and seeking God’s judgment. That was demonstrated when he sought to destroy Nabal for his lack of respect, but Nabal’s wife, Abigail, convinced David of how wrong that action would be. And David repented.
Perhaps a check on us getting our thoughts out of control and seeking our own fleshly ends in imprecatory prayers is the example of Michael in contending with Satan about the body of Moses. Instead of railing, the Scripture says, Michael merely said “the Lord rebuke you.”
As you all related, the imprecatory psalms so foreign to us today require keen wisdom and sensitivity to God’s leading.
The way we are to love our neighbors is clear in the new testament too. The 10 commandments is repeated in the new testament, substituting Jesus as our Sabbath.
I really liked this episode, I think Pastor Joel Webbon would agree with yal , i would recommend yal should probably do a sit in with him. If yal hadn't already plan to it would probably clear it up alot .
We didn’t really mean this as a rebuttal. We just used his clip as a launching off point. I imagine he would probably agree with most everything in this episode as well.
Did we seem to be taking an adversarial approach to his comments?
@@ReformationRedPill I guess I got a little confused with the mesh of marsh I may not have got his name right but I probably miss understood yal . No yal did great probably just me, Thank you for your quick response that says a whole lot about your concern.
Ahem... yal should be y'all. A conjunction of the two words you and all. Make English great again, and stop the bastardization of it.
Why not have Joel on for the conversation? You’ve talked with him multiple times before.
Cmon guys. Stay on topic. Marcian? Stop showing off how smart u are.
All good stuff but….
Does God need our prayers to judge the wicked? 25:40 🤔
Paul notes in Romans of "new type" of righteousness revealed in Christ. This righteousness is qualitatively different than righteousness that is based on laws.
We do not crush our enemies. In Romans, Paul writes "The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet."
Hi, brother. that same Paul commands us to sing the Psalms, which would include imprecatory passages.
In Revelation, Jesus doesn't chastise the martyred saints for asking to be avenged by God, and the Lord Jesus does indeed avenge his servants as the scroll is opened.
It's a hard balance, and requires categorical wisdom. On one end, you have calloused fools who would hate if their enemies were converted because there would be nothing left to punch. And on the other hand, you have soft evangelicals. Much wisdom is needed from the Lord, but the imprecatory categories ought not to be excluded for the Christian!
@@ThomasLuke-yx6yp Yes, but you understand that there is hierarchy here.
Law is useful to understand what is sin, but not good for new righteousness and life in Christ.
So we read OT thru Christ.
He is the measuring rod.
@@paveli1181we can’t have life and blessing in His commandments/law?
@@jermoosekek1101 Law is useful as a guardrail and helps us identify sin. Relying on it for salvation brings us under a curse, not blessing. (Gal 3:10)
@@paveli1181We are righteous because the love of god has been poured into us… but Paul says that love is the eternity of gods law, even the mean parts
Thinking in these categories is very new to me and seems pretty difficult. God can do things we aren't allowed to, like seek revenge. So can we hate what he hates?
Love God first & those He loves & hate what He hates starting with our own personal sins & transgressions.
Aware of our own foolishness & sin like David in Psalm 73 with vv. 3 & 22 being just a few points of reference.
Recognizing that's it's God alone who gives gracious salvation & it's not of ourselves & so others cannot do anything of themselves to attain eternal life. We’ll never know the greatness and the sweetness of the grace of God unless we know that new birth was His totally sovereign, undeserved gift when we were dead in our sin, in darkness (Col. 1:13), (Romans 8:7-8). Left to ourselves, apart from sovereign grace decisively quickening us so that we treasure the glory of Christ, we will be dead and blind forever. It's God that takes the initiative in bringing life, transferring one from their own darkness & into His kingdom of light. Ephesians 1, 2:8-9, Philippians 1:29, 2 Corinthians 4:4-6, John 3:7-8, John 6:44, 65, 2 Timothy 2:25, 1 Corinthians 1:23-24 are a few references but not all.
If mustache guy relaxes he wouldn't stutter so much.
What is Joel's website? Why isn't it linked here? Btw I get it, ur squirrely. It's uncomfortable tho.
If you are to judge, prepare to be judged. If in your eyes you are guiltless before god cast a stone and curse your brother. I warn you, be prepared to have the same curse inflicted upon you in your judgement. Remember that the fall came from us becoming judges for our own sake. I must beg that, rather, you repent and grow in humility and acknowledge your own insufficiency. Become a judge over yourself so that you do not grow proud before others and may instead grow pleasing before God. This is for the safety of your eternal souls. Time will show false teachings to fail and death will devour the proud. Be careful my brothers in Christ. Judge not, lest ye be judged. If you are truly righteous cast the stone. Else, trust in Christ to be the good judge.
Yes. Shut down all legal systems, police forces and the military. After all, how is a mere man who wears a robe fit to judge another, when he commits offenses himself. Jesus is absolutely an anarcho-communist. Not.
There are a few items available bout that not judging sentiment in the verses both before and after the one you're quoting, which really tells a lot more about judging than to merely say "don't do it'.
@@BobbyMarcum-nh9lt “Judge rightly” is not some random magistrates name. Numb-nuts who say “don’t judge” to someone, are by definition judging them.
Yep, CS Lewis and Tim Keller both got this wrong. They say the imprecatory psalms shouldn't be prayed or sung. Those winsome losers...
I wish he didn't justify Lewis saying that "he didn't have a category for the imprecatory psalms"? What do you mean "he didn't have a category" for that? That's weird. The Bible gave him the category. He just simply got it wrong.
This is what happens when you don't rightly divide Israel and the church. Replacement theology is heresy
I want to win
I am pleased about this topic and thank you for taking it up. But what a superficial and poor portrayal of dispensationalism. It shows me again and again that people don't listen to each other.
With such superficial side blows, we are not doing justice to Christ's heartfelt desire for unity.
One thi g i felt i should point out. Is that lust is a pretty serious mistranslation
Im conservative and this has been a interesting vid. Ive been cuaght with this. How do i feel about people like hamas.
Should i love them our hate... its been confusing... just wanted to say thank you uve givin me something to ponder and pray about.
Anyways back to lust.
The catholic church defines it as inordinate sexual desire(thanks augustine)
But is this correct. 😅
No.
Theres other lusts
Also god made our body our hormones.
To say that sexual desire (think how francis says you can lust for your wife)
Is gnostic...
The word in greek is epithumio
Hebrew is yetzer.
These words actually simply mean desire...the context of mathew is adultery.
These concepts show that to call desire towards the opposite sex wholesale is a bad interpretation
However the word epithumeo is also translated covet...
This verse is saying the desire of adultery anothers wife is adultery...
Jesus is equating the 10th command. To adultery...
Just pointing something out
Will you also hate your own unsaved, children...Because they are enemies of God? Will you hate your unsaved mothers or fathers when they aren't redeemed yet? if not you're a hypocrite and false teachers. Yes, all three of you.
Christ never said 'love enemy entities' ✅️
Somebody buy Rich a better mic
Working on it. Hoping to get him set up with a sweet podcast set up.
@@ReformationRedPill👏👏👏👏
Homosexuality is not what is threatening our Christian family’s and young men. It’s wrong but not our major threat.
If this isnt included in your understanding of Christianity, then you have taken bite of a poison apple of false teaching.
I was listening right up until the incorrect remarks about dispensationalism. Unsubbed.
So it looks like you guys are going to gloss over the fact that Joel (a fellow Wilsonite like yourselves) took scripture out of context and misapplied the specific OT functional life situation of David as a man of war shedding the blood of the enemies of God to the NT Christian which is a gross mistake (1 Chronicles 28:3; I Kings 5:3;)
David's hatred for his enemies was fleshed out in his warring against and executing them, and it should remain in that historical redemptive context. Scripture nowhere commands the NT Christian to hate his or God's enemies but commands the opposite (Matthew 5:43-35)
Moreover, Joel is a hypocrite in this regard because while he says that he needs to grow in his hatred for abortionists that hatred doesn't stop him from supporting for public office exceptional (rape/incest) abortionist like Donald Trump.
ua-cam.com/users/clipUgkxbtQ2FAGAU8VprrJNX_QF93VIQ71Qn0Qh?si=DR6SVLRK-50dTNP6
I would love to hear your thoughts.
Really examine this, then ask if that's what Jesus would say. The NT Gospels clearly say love thy thy enemy. Any hatred whatsoever is anti God and so not Christ-like and you should avoid any pastor telling you to hate ANYTHING. Truly examine with your heart and you'll know I'm right.
The fear of Yahweh is to hate evil;
Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the mouth of perverted words, I hate.
(Prov. 8:13)
Let those who love the Lord hate evil,
for he guards the lives of his faithful ones
and delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
(Psalm 97:10)
Yes and the fact that the Psalms are inspired by God,-Who is Jesus if not God? He wrote them through David, for his own future use and for all of us who follow him. We are able to wholeheartedly embrace any Psalms of we are wholeheartedly imitating Christ
I'm new here. Both hosts act the same way. Very distracting. Simply say what u got without that style.
Repent of sins to be saved? Uh oh…
44:05 There is no innocent anybody, even babies. We have been blessed with 15 Grand children and believe you me none of them have ever been innocent.
55:00 How can you say all of my enemies are not God's enemies? If they are not God's enemies they can't be your enemies. If you think they are you need to Repent.
Correct. But you must admit it Christians are often wrong about God‘s enemies and their enemies. Christians fall into the sin of pride and wrath as well.
I agree, anytime we sin it is because of pride. However, I am reminded of a story that came from Spurgeon when He was at an event and a colleague pointed out to him that the man across the room really didn't like Spurgeon and Spurgeon answered by saying I am ok because if He really new me he would hate me. Chances are when ever someone falsely accuses me of something there is a chance at some point of my life that actually had done what i have been accused of. I am reminded of Joseph and his brothers Genesis 50:20 What you meant for evil