Cards that Change Your Deck's Power Level | The Command Zone 584 | MTG EDH Magic Gathering
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
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Show Notes:
When it comes to power, not all cards are created equal. Synergy is important but there are plenty of cards out there that can take a deck to the next level all on their own. This episode, we’re going over some of the most impactful cards in the format, giving you the rundown on spells to look out for which can take a deck from “Kitchen Casual” to “Bane of the Board” in an instant. Don’t miss it!
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Timestamps:
00:00:00 - Intro
00:05:08 - Cards that Change your Deck's Power Level
00:12:14 - Fast Mana
00:57:16 - Free Spells
01:12:08 - Draw Engines
01:25:11 - Extra Turns
01:28:38 - Cyclonic Rift
01:30:50 - Teferi's Protection
01:34:31 - Inkshield
01:39:40 - Hate Cards
01:57:32 - Tutors
02:04:37 - Wincons
02:14:34 - Cards That Don't Change Power Level
02:18:38 - Which Cards Actually Change a Deck's Power Level
02:19:59 - Difference Between 7 and 8 Power Decks
02:22:02 - Finding the Right Power Level For You
02:25:24 - To the Listeners
#magicthegathering #mtg #commander #mtgcommander #edh #podcast #commandzone - Ігри
What do you think? Can a single card change a deck’s power level? What cards do you think are just too powerful to be in a 6 commander deck? Any cards we mentioned that you disagree with?
Sol Ring! It 'moves the needle' of the average deck even more than mana crypt due to how widespread it is. Going from 0 to 1 piece of turn1 fast mana is a lot bigger jump, but admittedly it seems the power does compound with each additional piece.
Our pod has removed it (or any reusable turn1 fast mana from our decks) and it has had a wildly enjoyable result on our deck building variety and meta of play below CEDH.
@@Byteside546I think the discussion is about moving the needle of expectations.
Gaias cradle
I belive in the Zach from commander social says "My cards maybe a 10 but i play like a 3"
Dana Roach has called it an X factor you can put all the powerful cards you want but at its core does the deck synergize?
Dana will pick cards that are likely going to be considered a 4 but when paired with this commander the card itself becomes a 10
Player skill
Deck building skill
Card quality
Power level
I build Josh's deck and play it I'm not a skilled player i will admit this. Hand me a cEDH deck with no primer or knowledge of the deck i might accidentally win but its unlikely.
Better question would be “Can drawing a single card change a deck’s power level.
I have Mana Crypts in a few decks and I play many games where I never see it. I agree that having redundant affects can change the power level of a deck but not a single card
The card that changes your decks power level the most is the CREDIT CARD.
Or debit card
This comment needs to be pinned
Proxy your home games! Don't spend $300 on something you won't know if you like playing
True sis, very true, sipping that tea ☕
😂 100%
I really think explaining the power levels of the game knights decks a bit more would be really helpful in the the game knights episodes.
That would add some great context, or even ranking decks they played as part of these explanations
I’d say most game knights decks that aren’t precon battles are 8s. Jeskas will, rhystic , tithe and dockside are all routinely in decks. Theres almost no two card combos . The only one I can think of was post had the godo helm but had the helm in his hand in the kamigawa episode but they do push the deck when post of Cassius play.
There's a UA-cam show called 'Worst Possible' by CovertGoCrew that lets the table know what the worst thing your deck can do right at the beginning, and I have started doing that at my FNM because I feel it's good for the MTG culture to be more transparent and less GOTCHA. It makes me feel less bad about winning with a combo when I have told the table how I plan to do that. I feel bad when they meta game that transparency and change what they were planning on playing lol
I think having a quick Rule 0 discussion (including Power Level discussion) would benefit Game Knights a lot but I understand why it's not there due to the heavily edited nature of that show. It should definitely be in Extra Turns though.
@@imanujakku lol if their decks are 8s then the scale needs to go up to 20
A lot of these cards qualify for me as 'I'm not gonna buy one... but if I pull one from a pack I'm definitely going to use it."
I think that's fine until your running 10 cards like that.
that's fair. you get the hype whenever you play it to 'member-berry when you pulled it :D
I've pulled Esper Sentinel, Smothering Tide, and Sylvan Library. I intentionally run them in my jank decks to keep them playable in my pod.
I run my Mana Crypt that I got from a Lost Caverns booster on my birthday. I usually die first as a result, but I'm not too fussed.
This is exactly how I feel- Bought a box of Commander Legends to draft with friends- we pulled a Jeweled Lotus. Would I ever pay ~$90+ for one? Nope.... But will I use it in any deck I can now? Absolutely lol
You wanted it, well here it is: Josh Lee Lee Kwai
Discussing deck power levels certainly gets convoluted when discussing individual cards.
Honestly the 6 vs 7 vs 8 differentiation was super helpful. Will definitely be useful in pregame discussions and hopefully encourage others to similarly share
I disagree. They talk about decks are usually playing combo wins at 8 (which I agree with) but then label things that aren't necessarily indicative of combo decks. I have a Saruman of Many Colors deck that I wouldn't classify as an 8 because it has such a dumb/slow game plan, but by their definition, would absolutely be classified as such. There is 1 combo that involves 3 different cards that aren't the commander to pull off. Maybe it is just a bad deck concept, but it is running all of the hallmarks of a powerful deck just to be able to work. I wouldn't consider it to be anywhere close in power to my Lord Windgrace deck. Same with Rachel's Pheldagriff deck. I'd say it more competes with the lightly upgraded precon tier more than anything else.
They actually cover this type of exception in the video. Weak decks that require powerful cards just to raise them up to a 6 or 7 can be justified. You just run the risk of people not believing you.
@@Zombi3NinjaKingdude , this video was next level terrible. They are literally just patting every johnny come lately on the head who smashed together the bulk rares and uncommons from their trade binder and thinks their deck is a seven and get upset when they play an actual seven and accuse it of being cedh lol. You only have to go as far as the edh power level chart to see that a 7 is classified as "PLAYING WITH POWER". Idk wtf narrative they're trying to push here with this video trying to knock 7s down to run of the mill dumbed down casual decks.
I don't really like numbers because it misses a key point. Even an absolute trash Grand Arbiter Augustin deck is going to make people upset. It's more the strategy of the deck and speed at which it functions.
Like playing a Meren into a Kunaros regardless of the power level is going to be unfun... Likewise Slicer, hired muscle thats using fast mana is going to make playing even a really good control deck struggle. In my experience the best commander pickup games are when people play decks with strategies that aren't at odds with one another and have a similar mana curve.
The number thing is just too subjective. Otherwise who cares that much. I play X deck and it went off before you got your chance? Cool let's try again and I'll use something a little less potent.
Honestly it's impossible to know who will like what too early on.
I think fast mana, “perfect mana bases” (few to no tap lands) and tutors are the most notable influencers of power level. The ability to generate lots of mana early, having color fixing that doesn’t enter tapped, and tutors to get the pieces you need rather than hope you draw into them can turn even a janky deck into a significantly more powerful deck.
I agree with this a lot.
I bought the Sliver pre-con and, like many people, was upset about the lack of good reprints and the awful mana base. Playing it sucked as almost very land was a tap land.
I added in some mana fixing I already had with some improvement on the ramp, put in a couple of shock lands, and added in the 5 Panorama fetch lands.
Those changes alone greatly increased the power level of it and that speed at which it played, and that’s without putting down serious money to get a fully upgraded mana base.
In 3+ color decks, revamping the mana base is very impactful
@@eXJonSnow That sliver deck was so disappointing. The slivers themselves were fine, the deck was just so SLOW because of the lands! I played against a few other precons and was just getting smothered by the All Will Be One boros deck and the Dihada deck.
I think everybody should proxy perfect mana bases. No one should feel that their decks power is held back because they don't want to spend hundreds of dollars just to have good lands.
@@leifdering3600 Alternatively, I think people should treat fetchlands specifically as high power level cards. Playing 3+ colors SHOULD have a drawback, because you get to have access to a much larger and more powerful card pool. Casually banning fetchlands (much like fast mana and tutors) would make lands like the painlands or filterlands significantly more playable, as basic typing doesn't matter nearly as much.
Also, players play too few basics.
Literally this. The difference between cedh and casual is three things: fast mana, tutors, and efficient win conditions. Without the first two the third gets a lot worse and without the third, decks still feel extremely powerful. Any white deck running the one ring, mana crypt, and enlightened tutor feels oppressive if your opponents are all rocking slightly modified precons.
Love, love, LOVE this. It's taken me about 5 and a half years of playing EDH to figure these things out, but I very much am in the same boat as you guys here. I don't want to play things that just make certain opponents unable to play anymore. It just isn't fun, at all.
Really appreciate the distinction between cards that make your deck more powerful vs. cards that *imply* you’re playing a powerful deck. Haven’t heard that articulated quite so clearly before.
This conversation is definitely a useful tool for people who play random games at a local game store (LGS) and the rule 0 interaction.
If only they'd watch it. The people most in need are the least connected.
This why number power levels aren’t a great indication because they are subjective. Instead of numbers I personally think you just be honest about having tutors, fast mana etc in your deck in rule zero.
Well, the problem with that is there is also a wide range of power levels that include those kinds of cards. Having tutors and fast mana in your deck doesn't mean your deck is as fast or as powerful as mine.
As a cEDH player that dabbles in casual, I agree with this. Numbers for power levels are up to interpretation. The correct questions to ask would be "are we playing infinite combos?", "What kind of ramp are we playing?" (Talismans, Dorks, Fast Mana), "What kind of tutors are acceptable?".
A decent way to determine the power level of a deck is what turn do you usually win by/get to the end game.
@@tking5218 Yeah, win-con and combo potential can really mean a lot more than having a bunch of good cards.
I bought and upgraded the WUBRG Sliver pre-con, but even with a perfect mana base, it’s probably still not as strong as a Thassa’s Oracle blue combo deck
@@caedis_ That can be VERY hard to determine depending on the deck type.
I really wish the community could reconfigure the power levels. If a precon sits at 5 anymore it really feels like most of the scale is being wasted. People don’t really build decks worse than precons that often. I’d be interested to see a scale more so:
1- Jank
2- Average Precon
3- Powerful Precon/Minimally upgraded precon
…
9- Old or Tier 2 cEDH
10- Tier 1 cEDH
I always rated a percon at about a 3 and I agree it feels right.
I agree. I feel like that especially once people are talking about "7.5" power level or a "high 8" shows that there needs to be more granularity
I don't agree with putting cedh on the same scale as casual edh. Because if you're playing cedh then you know you're playing cedh. This is the same reason why a pile of random cards also doesn't belong on the list which is pretty much anything below a precon. Fundamentally they are two separate entities and cedh decks are built from an entirely different philosophy towards a self-contained meta. There's no rule 0 and the two aren't meant to be in the same pod.
Cedh being on the scale also has the implication that you can upgrade a deck into a cedh deck which isn't true because you would be essentially just building a different deck.
i don't like the number scale system in general but if I had to design it it would look something like this.
1 - Awful Precon
2 - Average Precon
3 - "Good" Precon. I have good in quotations here because precons do not have good deck construction and even the "good" ones have plenty of chaff in them.
4 - Lower end of mid power
5 - Mid power - Where decks are optimized enough towards a strategy but aren't fully optimized. Infinites and combos are expected but not efficient.
6 - The upper level of mid power
7 - The in between of a mid power and a high power deck. Almost a transitional period of power where it's going to wipe the floor with mid power decks but isn't good enough to hang in high power casual.
8 - The lower end of high power casual. High power assumes every deck at every level of high power is highly optimized. Where in high power a deck goes I believe is determined by the quality of the strategy. For example every tribal beatdown deck that isn't Marwyn the Nurturer, Yuriko, or Winota would fall into the lower end of high power. Because in high power decks that just tap out to make big creatures you turn sideways aren't going to fly. The most you'll get out of a low power strategy like stompy beatdown is the lower end of high power casual.
9 - High power casual
10 - The upper end of high power casual
This is my issue people have 3-4s call them 7s. If these cards make your deck not a seven then to me you play 2 and 3 power level decks. 8-10 are cedh decks to me.
@Chiemkim you have no idea what cedh is. Plenty of cedh decks are BAD vs casual decks. Plenty have a game plan that makes them fair vs casual decks.
Thanks for showing Stormgate some love, JLK!
Adding Rachel was the best the show has done. Brought me back to the channel.
She is great, yeah.
but she doesnt know what shes talking about half the time tho
@@Helibrrrrr oh yea? And you di
I think she is amazing too! She is a very effective communicator!
@@MisterJ355 way more than you and her combied kiddo
I'm so excited to see Game Knights Live! Picked up my tickets last month for Magic Con!
I have long hated the number system for EDH power level. Like has anyone ever come up to a table and said "I'm playing a 3 today"? Our play group has moved away from that metric and now I uses the following as our way of grading power level: unedited precon, edited precon or untuned build, high powered (some fast mana and tutors), and cEDH (all fast mana and tutors).
Most of mine are self builds I don't use tutors in most of them, no mana crypt, some dark rituals no jeweled lotus,
Literally what my playgroup does as well, the number system is really weird and really does not work whatsoever. It's way more easy to just say "I'm playing a high powered casual deck" and just play.
@@ZeratoGZ I like how the worse possible commander show discuss the best pieces and what they can do
I love when my playgroup is like, 'let's all play a precon', implying they'd all be on the same power level. The pregame discussion is what's most important
@@salmathe8bitSamurai but not all precons are built the same
All the knowledge I soaked up is so appreciated. Thanks you guys.
HAVE A RULE 0 DISCUSSION.
I think that is the biggest thing. I let people just look through my deck so they know what they are in for. I also make it a point to go over my win con. I think people should know if you run tons of fast mana, combo out on early turns or run a heavy stax build. Try to promote a healthy game state before the actual game begins.
Completely agree on esper sentinel, I have it in my queen Kayla deck and that deck is a solid 6 but hey when esper hits the table I can draw a couple cards before it gets naturalized.
The two biggest things I think that affect power level are fast mana and the effect of your commander. Being able to get a five drop commander out turn two is huge, especially if your entire deck revolves around what they do. With the Commander effect, if it’s an affect that doesn’t take a lot of set up to get going, like my Radagast the Brown deck, you just need to drop them and watch the value go.
I think this discussion is super interesting. I don’t know if I agree that a SINGLE card will jump a deck from 5/6 to an 8 but when a few of these get together I do believe it jumps the power. I think the major question for me is tutor-ability. If you can find that one powerful card each game I think it changes the power level but sans tutors I dont think it changes it that dramatically
Spot on. One Dockside in a deck of 99 cards is good, but the key is the 5 tutors to find it; that's what makes a deck much more powerful. Density of tutors and fast mana / ramp is the key
@@chrisperrell2843 but why are you even running Dockside if it's the only super powerful card in your deck? It just makes it so that every now and then you instantly win and the rest of the table just sighs and has a bad time.
@@webbc99 it's a good point, but there are loads of insta-win cards in the game. The table will sigh more if every game you use one of your 5+ tutors to get the same card. Change Dockside for Craterhoof - if every game you splurge out creatures and then natural order, worldly tutor, or finale of devastation into it or demonic tutor a triumph of the hoards or akromas will that would also get a sigh from me. For me a deck is only an 8+ (hate the numbering, but it is what it is) if it is consistent. A powerful card that you might draw once every 10 games does not make the deck powerful in itself.
@@webbc99if you wanna play it in your new krenko from Ravnica MaKM, why not ? It's a goblin and it makes treasures, so it's a perfect fit in the deck and doesn't break the flavour of your tribal deck.
There will always be some cards that are better than 95% of your deck, the cards that are wincons for example, it's totally normal to have some in your deck and doesn't make your deck an 8 or something broken.
I would say that the problem would be having a deck where all the cards feel the same, none of them is really powerful or make waves, because I would ask you if the deck is even capable of winning.
I think this is THE best discussion about power levels I have yet seen. I like the idea of identifying cards that might bump your power level and counting them up and seeing the interactions to determine the overall power level of the deck is a solid approach
I strongly agree with your assessments on these cards, this is probably the best episode ive seen on any channel that has covered this topic.
I actually play a Simian Spirit Guide in my Kibo Uktabi Prince Deck because it's an Ape and it can help me bring out Kibo one turn early, which is helpful as the Deck heavily relys on having my commander out. But in that instance i don't feel like it's too strong, it feels much more like a one time use turn one ramp (like utopia sprawl or wild growth). Also i can't really go off immeadiately, i need some more apes out first, get the banana game going etc.
I think "top end of casual" designation is the key point. For lots of folks there is no difference between "top end of casual" and CEDH (I think wilful ignorance is to blame). I would love to play more "high power casual" without auto losing on turn three. I think that skill/playstyle are also key layers to this conversation.
I play mostly cEDH these days and turn 3 wins are usually in that realm. This being said, there is a difference between high powered and cEDH. High powered usually wins turn 5-9 IMO because it's a noncompact combo. Compact combos include the following for cEDH (Underworld Breach, Dockside Extortionist, Thassa's Oracle, Necropotence, Ad Nauseum, or a one card outlet that synergizes with a commander). Fast mana in my opinion is overall telltale sign for power level scaling followed by tutors for casual decks.
agree, and personal metas develop within a play group, i think a group of players eventually power-creep themselves on accident. You start casual 7 or 8 years ago, but now the group fetches into shocks or dual lands minimum, things like that. You understand why you have a sol ring and every deck has one, everyone who runs white has their copies of swords to plowshares, obvious things like that eventually get stronger.
I sat down at a pod and said i had a high power casual deck i wanted to play if everyone else had a deck that could match and got mocked for the rest of the night treating me like i was just a cedh player just trying to pubstop.
My deck runs no fast mana or ramp beside thrasios as one of the commanders.
This video should be required reading for all commander players. Got me thinking I may need to take ancient tomb out of a few of my power 6 decks. Intelligent and insightful discussion, thank you for articulating so well the conversation of power level and which cards auto promote your decks power level. Bravo.
I like the longer podcasts. These are nice to listen to in the background
I think something akin to Canadian Highlanders points list could help quantify a general power level for finding balanced tables. It’d be another cumbersome thing to know but it might make for better matched tables
There’s a way to do this without the complexity of remembering the point system. I do it in my rule 0s saying, “I’m playing X commander and I run A, B, and C cards. I shoot to win around turn Y, with Z.”
Dockside first appeared in the Sevinne precin didn't it? And that deck, even with a few upgrades struggles to hit your definition of a seven, let alone an eight.
That deck sucks so bad hahahaha it’s a 4-5 even with dockside
My understanding is someone building a deck to include Dockside is also probably including ways to abuse it like blinking or reanimating, at that point the deck becomes an 8.
This list seems mostly about using these individual cards as a focal point for a strategy makes that deck stronger than an upgraded precon.
Prime example being Ad Nauseam, if your goal is to get maximum value out of it the rest of the deck ends up being an extremely fast/mana inexpensive combo which immediately sits at 8/9.
wrong
Yeah, that deck is a 1-2 and dockside makes it a 3.
While I do agree that a single fetchland or a single original dual land doesn't change the powerlevel of a deck that much, those cards aren't often encountered alone.
I don't think I've seen somebody play a Plateau only to follow it up with an Orzhov guildgate. It often indicates that you're running a 3 colour deck with 9 fetches, 3 OG duals, 3 shocks, and some other solid untapped lands. At that point the consistancy of your mana base pushes the deck up a level (or two).
It's actually very easy to place Cyclonic Rift, and you guys did it correctly. It's in a category by itself, because when you Overload it, you're suddenly at a table by yourself, because no one likes or wants to play with you anymore.
Certain cards like Cyclonic Rift, and Farewell, should ONLY be played when you are about to close out the game. Otherwise, they prolong/ ruin the game. I hope all Commander players will agree with me on this. There are plenty of games I have Cyclonic Rift in hand, with the mana to overload it, and do not do so. Same with Farewell and other cards like them. Finding the right time to play a spell is something you develop and learn with time. That is skill.
Sol ring is just as bad as mana crypt. When it's played early, that player jumps ahead just like mana crypt. Just bc it's in every precon doesn't make it less aggregious
While I agree Sol Ring is nearly as good as mana crypt, it can't be denied that *everyone has one* and that this does mitigate its power level a bit. Mana crypt is so good because it breaks that balance, so unless everyone else *also* has Mana crypt, you are the only player that essentially gets 2 Sol rings, and in a singleton format, it's all about that consistency.
I get that but it's assuming that everyone is playing sol ring and I don't think mana crypt is op just bc of when it's played with sol ring. It's powerful in its own right. My point is a turn 1 sol ring is a gamechanger in the same way mana crypt is. So saying sol ring doesn't boost your deck in the same way doesn't make sense.
@@salmathe8bitSamurai I agree, but what the video, and commander pods in general, are considering is an **average** power level. So something that everyone has doesn't boost your deck beyond the average, by definition. If no one had Sol Ring, and you played one, it would be a massive boost, and taking it out of your deck is a similarly massive decrease, unless it is replaced with something equally good, like mana crypt.
I like the convo in the vid, it's nearly impossible to determine 'average' power. Even pre cons are not created equal. Throwing a mana crypt in a casual '8' doesnt push it to cedh level. My main point is one card imo doesn't boost your deck to that degree, that'd be a 10% gain to go from a 6 to 7 from 1% (one card) of your deck. And I think some cards like sol ring are dismissed because of access/cost, when the discussion is what impact a single card has on the deck overall. And access aside, sol ring is up there with crypt.
The main difference is that a deck with a Sol Ring may or may not have a Mana Crypt (probably not due to cost)… I have never seen a deck with a Mana Crypt that did not also have a Sol Ring.
I think what a deck is designed to do has a much bigger impact than the individual cards in it. I’ve got a solid casual deck with a Mana Crypt and a Jeweled Lotus in it, but it would NEVER be confused for a high power deck
Totally agree. Win-con and how it’s achieved are something that seems to fly under the radar.
Combat or burn focused decks, even with great mana bases and fast mana, are almost always going to be inherently worse than combo decks.
So what I gathered from this very entertaining and informative talk: play counterspells, especially mana drain!
i run isochron in my nicol bolas deck and use the 2 mana edicts, rakdos charm, counter spells (mana drain) etc along with unwinding clock. ive had mana drain under one scepter and an edict under a clone of another with unwinding clock. it was back breaking for the table and with discard effects i drained their resources.
I don't always agree with everything on this show, but this particular episode just resonated perfectly with me. It was awesome to hear you guys give a generic breakdown of what each power level means to you, illustrate the caveats that naturally go with a ranking system like this, and then to get a "fairly comprehensive" list of most of the boogeymen in the format. I will be referencing this episode over and over again in the near and distant future as a guideline. Thank you so much for putting it together!
Interesting new set. I would love to see more rules videos. They are always nice to help players learn and improve their games.
Oh wow, I just finished watching your video today. So cool to see you on here. And yes, more rules episodes!
@@digitalworldsvr7881 Thanks so very much! I watch a lot of other Magic content creators but I don't comment all too much since I'm typically late to watching the videos.
“There are cards that do do that” - do do being the key words
My fav Deck (Runo) has:
Cyclonic Rift
Mana Drain
Force of Negation
Black Market Connection
Rhystic Studies
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
...
I have lost to sooooo many Pre-Cons, so many times... Since Neon Dynasty the power of these decks have are imo way higher than a 5.
Not complaining but I feel there are decks that need these cards to even keep up with pre-cons these days.
If smothering tithe was printed today it would say when an opponent draws their second card each turn
Monologue tax was their effort to make a more fair Smothering Tithe but no one plays it. 😅
@@Dragon_Fyre I have it in a few decks because I don't want to run smothering tithe but do want some degree of white ramp. (Usually w/ token synergy.)
@@PasDeMD I didn’t literally mean “no one”. It’s just not a popular card.
Me and 3 close friends started playing commander 5-6 years ago, we mostly play casual and rarely use cards above 20$. One of us started to put Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, Teferis Protection, Jeskas Will and Farewell into all his decks. We argued a while and we came to the conclusion that those cards broke our meta and ruined the fun. He doesnt want to change his decks, so we ended up playing once every 4-6 weeks instead of once a week like we used to for years.
RIP... That power creep in playgroups is so hard to suppress. Once somebody starts upgrading, everyone basically has to just to keep up.
I think farewell is an odd choice to add to this list, unless said player holes prio and then teferi's protections. Otherwise its just a good reset button.
@@brugalter94 I would agree that it's not as problematic as the other cards. But it still makes a difference if you're the only one that plays farewell, while everybody else is using austere command, or if you use black market connections, while everybody else has phyrexian arena. Those small things add up pretty quickly.
@@imikoimo6685it was like 10 bucks.
@@brugalter94 its more bc u can be selective and literally hit every major zone for a six mana board wipe, it just does too much to reset a game in a more casual environment sometimes to a point that you dont need it unless the meta is stronger
Tysm for the channel it’s great seeing the content about so many aspects of the game. That helps to expand the understanding of the usage cards and strategies. ❤ pls keep it up 😊
I think two of the biggest things that go into power level are win-con and the deck’s ability to pull it off.
Decks that have a repeatable engine or a combo based win are typically going to be more powerful than basic go wide decks.
For example, the Pantlaza precon deck’s win-con is to play a bunch of big dinosaurs and attack for lethal. It’s not going to go off in a single turn, there aren’t any infinite/repeating combos, and there are multiple ways to stop it (board wipes, combat damage prevention, spot removal for big dinos, etc.). Even with upgrading the ramp and adding in higher powered WRG cards, it’s win-con is still to go big for lethal.
Contrasting that would be something like a Thassa’s Oracle combo deck. It’s win-con runs a low mana infinite combo that can win in a single turn. If someone doesn’t have spot removal for a combo piece or a counter spell at the moment the player is going for the win, then they win. It also simultaneously wins against the whole table, whereas combat decks probably aren’t going to kill multiple players in a single turn (at least, not until late game with low health totals).
The is probably my favorite episode you’ve ever done. Thank you for so succinctly discussing several cards and topics that have been on my mind so well and the ramifications they cause to a game!
I'd love to see a video like this for certain commanders, unless you guys have made one already and I haven't seen it! I had a friend who built a "casual" mono blue urza deck and said it was casual since it was voltron and proceeded to tap his equipment for mana lol
ANY card that, alone, cost's more than $10, AND, especially when it has a deck built around it, is NOT casual. I hope that helps/makes sense.
xXone..there are plenty of cards that are expensive because of standard, modern or lack of reprints that just aren't as busted in EDH so 10$ is an indicator but not THE indicator
Cost doesn't mean anything when it comes to determining the power level of a deck. I run revised dual lands in my casual decks - because I have the cards & like playing with them - and they do absolutely nothing to influence whether the decks are casual or not.
in my playgroups people pay the 2 for smothering tithe all the times it usually drops and they may get 1 treasures per turn cycle, because we learned if you don't pay is too good for them.
This is pretty similar to how I gauge power level on my own. I don’t use the number system, because I thinks it’s arbitrary, and not fully accurate. I generally ask in pregame if anyone is on fast mana, combos, or tutors, and what turn they plan to win by. Then I can adjust the deck I play accordingly
Jeska's will, in my prosper deck, is glorious. The Deck is definitely an 8. Impulse draw and playing things out of exile snowballs quickly. It also has Mana Geyser, Mana Vault, and Mana Crypt.
My Zaxara deck has pretty much every card in this list video that it can run. It's my "9" deck. The deck I'm comfortable playing when people bring out their crazy decks. it's also my most expensive deck. everyone has that one deck they want to bling out right.
Dockside goes crazy in prosper too obviously.
@@joshholmes1372 yup, that's why the deck is an easy 8 just with that card. It's basically built to find it, build to feed off treasures, and play from exile to get more treasures. It's a vicious cycle and if I can get to dockside it's usually game over.
Going to always refer to a 9 as a Kibler 6 now 😂
Lmao so true 🤣🤣🤣
What point in the episode do they say this? I was listening to it in thr background and think i missed it 😂
I appreciate the slang, I wouldn't mind a primer for card types (like anthems). But also, strategies (aristocrats, recursion, etc), and even a bit on the Ravnica schools and themes.
As a new player with no Mox cards, I didn't know what the moxen were.
One that I have gotten a ton of flack for is Humility. My play group is mostly 8s and a few 7s and we don't really mind these kinds if cards. But this is one I always tell people is in my deck and I've more than once had people walk away from the table when I mention it so I'm surprised it wasn't on this list.
Working on a Slinger/Storm deck atm and the comment on Storm almost always being 8s by necessity (for reasons of speed, consistency and interactivity) was really eye-opening and helpful- it gives me the feeling I can run some of the scary cards I was previously on the fence about- it will just be one of my more powerful decks, and that’s okay (and good to know). Great video!
This made my week. I like cracking packs so I'll have a deadly rollick in a 7. But you did make me feel most of my decks are trending towards an 8. You talked a lot about 7-8 but you could do another episode about 6-7 or even 7-6.
Just found y’all, love all of your content and production level of your vids is great!! Keep it up
I pick up one copy of the more expensive and powerful cards, like Mana Crypt, and then move them around when I want to make a deck stronger for a bit. I think it's fair and it makes it interesting with my playgroup when I bring out a deck that just had the power in it, that I have detuned to raise another deck up. As people on this cast have talked about before, taking out the "good stuff" includes makes room for more thematic and occasionally lower power cards.
One care they missed is Bow-masters imo that card can shut down decks and if ran with wheels it’s crazy
Without hyperbole, one of the most important videos the channel here has put out in years. A really nuanced, nuts and bolts discussion on the characteristics which make decks powerful. I know so many people who would benefit by watching this. Also opens a good tangential discussion on the ban list. I have several times posed the question to commander groups if they would let me use my Mox Jet instead of my Mana Crypt. Most agree the jet is the "power down" but won't agree to it because the letter of rules. It really breaks a lot of brains when they dig into it. Also speaks volumes on the legality of Mana Crypt.
Incredible work guys !!! Really great video !!
good to see fires of invention getting a mention, it's pretty darn good
There was a game at locals a couple weeks ago. Pod next to me guy had a 7 mana commander that had already been killed once. He recasts it and someone mana drained it bc they wanted the mana for their next turn. My guy packed up his stuff and left.
Had a game not too long ago where my commander got removed 4x, and I need the commander to do basically anything. Play commander they said, it'll be fun they said. I would, but nobody let's my play my damn commander. I was annoyed as hell.
@@markvandergiessen3158 have more going on then just the commander? Sounds like a skill issue.
This was an insightful video. I've played MtG on and off since the late 90's, but only really got back into a few years ago with Commander PreCons with my son (we realized even at 2 player we prefer the scale of Commander). We only started tweaking those decks about 4-6 months ago as some were just underpowered even in our home "meta".
We decided we want to start building our own decks, and many of the cards I've looked at showed up in this list. I knew they were powerful obviously, but it was your comments on how the other decks may not be able to deal with them at all. I expect some we will still add, if only to the odd deck (as a primarily B player, I love the idea of Bolas's Citadel, K'rrk, etc), but I'll definitely give some more thought to when/if we add some of these cards.
It's not just power level, but as was mentioned, i want to avoid ever deck feeling the same (even if I have ideas for 4-5 Orzhov decks in my head, lol)
When I first got back into playing Commander, I actually ran Ad Naus is my Orzhov lifegain deck pretty much as a way to draw cards 😂 I would just get to 80 life and draw like 10ish cards and go back down to 40 life, but then just play more dinky lifegain creature haha. This was before white had much good card draw
The dual lands might not change your power level, but they are DEFINITELY a red flag. If they got that money to burn they most likely have powerful cards.
What is the point of a power level discussion if the worst decks are a 4 or 5 and best is 10. The reason everything is a 7 is because everyone compresses the 10 point scale to a 5 point scale. I feel like the range the community uses needs a bit of reconsideration.
The worst decks are not 4/5 original precons are 3s is what they said. So I can see your point to start at that 3 but 4/5 is taking away from the 3 decks
No one is going to use 1-5 because those are just decks ranging from all the cards are the same color with no synergy and only creatures, to an average mid tier precon.
It's like IGN game rating.
Bro watched but didn’t listen
I have never ran tutors. One of the big attractions to Commander for me is the variety of the games. I enjoy seeing and playing different cards every game. I also don't intentionally run any infinite combos.
I've stopped adding tutors. At most, I add only 1 and almost never use it to pull a win con unless it's turn 10+ lol
I will run some of the slower combos in my weaker decks just to be able to close out a game. I mean the really weak ones playing some generally bad cards
Mox Amber + Roghark discussion very relevant. High power cards can be used in casual decks, if the deck doesn't exploid the high power card. I run Mox Amber in my Norin deck, which is "broken", except the whole deal really isn't broken as I'm running a Norin deck! It just elevates the deck to be playable against a tier of decks that I would normally not be able to compete with - but still very casual.
loved the video, you guys are really the best
i think orcish bowmaster is one card that changes the game and could be mentioned.
My new sort of pet peeve is decks with inconsistent power levels, both playing with and against, it makes it really hard to match up against because some games it’ll be underpowered but other games they’ll play some really powerful bomb that makes the deck way stronger. This is something I see often with newer players who have upgraded their decks
I feel that in my soul
This is definitely me. I play lower power builds that don't typically win before turn 10 but do have some bombs that sometimes allow me to win on turn 6 or 7.
This is definitely me. I play lower power builds that don't typically win before turn 10 but do have some bombs that sometimes allow me to win on turn 6 or 7.
This is definitely me. I play lower power builds that don't typically win before turn 10 but do have some bombs that sometimes allow me to win on turn 6 or 7.
This episode basically listed my "Baral, chief of compliance" deck list. xD
I used to run Ad Naus on my Karlov of the Ghost Council deck. Far from cedh but very good as it gains a bunch of life
Dockside had a place in my Jinnie Fey deck. I took it out almost immediately, it was almost a certain win whenever I drew it. My main fault with it is how flexible it is, there's almost no way you aren't getting value off of it, even if you don't need mana.
I play Jeskas Will and I don't see it nearly as strong as a Cyclonic Rift
just my personal opinion
Jeskas will is inherently a red spell so not like the red play would have 20 lands like the green player haha xD
Not really comparable. Cyclonic Rift closes out games that run too long and stall out… Jeska’s Will is dependent on what else is in the deck but is mostly a combo piece. I think Jeska’s Will is probably more of a threat (potentially). Most people just hate Cyclonic Rift because of optics (You cast it, attack, win, whereas a lot has to happen after a Jeska’s Will for the win).
@@Dragon_Fyre idk. I've never seen jeska will win a game . At least 10 times I've seen rift dropped and the game is pretty much done. Jeskas will is okay overall imp
@@PureTranceSoul I see it win as a combo piece, where it gets copied and you end up with like 9 extra cards and a heap of red mana... Hard not to win at that point with a powerful combo heavy deck.
I think the weaker your opponents decks, the more powerful Cyclonic Rift is… the more powerful your own deck is, the more impactful Jeska’s Will is going to be…
@@Dragon_Fyre
ahh you play in higher power lvls?
never seen it copied lol
@@PureTranceSoul I typically play below CEDH, so a 7-8 power level. Mostly anything goes except infinite combos. The lowest power level I play would be a heavily upgraded pre-con (Hakbal, Shorikai or Sidar Jabari).
Rachel be PREACHING and dropping gems thru her humor and her knowledge of MTG. Arguably some of the best hot takes and opinions.
Her EDH gameplay and interaction is *chefs kiss* you can see it in her deck builds and turn/threat assessment. 💪🏾🔥
Wow you are so quirky!😂
@@Wiwwia and also magic obsessed 😇
MtgGoldfish made this exact video a week and a half ago. I'm excited to see the command zone spin on the topic.
Each card can be powerful in its own way, I fully agree some cards are by nature stronger than others. In my pod I always mention the “batting average” of a deck. If you consider your deck a 7 and run it in 7s but you average a .500 win rate or higher, you’re probably not running a 7. Each game (if everyone plays the level) has a 25% chance of you winning, so your win average if played correctly should be .250 or close enough around there. In my pod I always tell people if you’re not comfortable losing 75% of your games, go play cEDH and try your hand there otherwise you’re going to power creep either knowingly or unknowingly and make the game less fun for everyone
I support Card Kingdom. Had a very big order stolen. Parcel was delivered ripped and cards missing. Card Kingdom was not at fault and still gave me a full refund.
Jeska's Will comes in 2 precons, not way it makes your deck a 7 immediately.
Which precons does it come in?
@@nunyabusiness3957 Exit From Exile. D&D set. That was the only one. I thought it was 2.
Definitely adding Dream Halls to my deck 😂 Trying to build the best monoblue deck with either G.E.Kefnet or Talrand as the commander
I have one Jeska's Will in one deck and its an Ovika, Enigma Goliath deck. It is mostly in there as a way to get Ovika out very early. I do not remember the last time I cast it with Ovika on the battlefield lol
Need a 'tier list' episode of these cards
During the video: look at all those nice powerful cards.
After the video: I guess no college funds for my kids. 😅
One thing I should add is that it's not just certain cards that change your power level, but the way in which you go about trying to abuse these cards. A core concept of cEDH compared to "normal" EDH is to abuse the generous mulligan rules and to sculpt the most explosive start you can get that has a draw/fast mana engine in it. IMO there is a big difference between decks that have some strong fast mana/draw engines in there as "filler" rather than trying to make it the go-to strategy of aggressively going for them early.
Yeah it's the way you play, plus the rules of the social contract changes to play what you want and show no mercy and play as efficiently and as logically as possible and allowing for the break up of the casual social contract. Which is why as both a casual ad cEDH player my scale is as follows.
1 Jank, may have goofy themes like chair tribal or just be draft chaff or hyper budget focused super fun and challenging to build a deck like this but likely will not win.
2 Precon
3 Upgraded precon
4 Precon with additional staples
5 Deck that aims to win with massive clasical haymakers that need a decently built board state to win such as Creator hoof, Expropriate etc and takes some effort to build said boardstae.
6 Hyper efficient deck staples ways but a janky win-con combo of between 3-5 cards with high cmcs to accomplish and does not go against the normal social contract
7 Decks that break the typical casual social contract like runs mass land destruction, chaos and stax are perfectly fine.
8 Any deck outside the cEDH meta but way too powerful to pilet anywhere else and does not use Consult Thoracle, breach, dockside loops or whatever is currently the most popular and consistant way to win. But may use more competitive 2-3 cheap cmc card combos like World gorger, animate dead loops but harder to set up than the meta in cEDH or easier to break apart.
9 At the level of the cEDH decks in the meta but classed as the best cEDH decks so off meta, but not far off
10 The most powerful cEDH deck in the meta
But I would comminicate with people what my deck aims to do in accordance with the scale and see if everyone is fine with the context of it and explain how powerful my staples are and what my win con, unless it's cool ass jank like near death experience and barren glory as winning like that is better kept a suprise so everyonen is hype when it happens.
Lesson of the day: run more removal. Crypt dies to a vandalblast the same way a sol ring does. Removal makes all op cards casual.
If you live long enough to cast Vandalblast. 😅
You aren’t wrong but I’ve been removal guy, trying to police the table’s powerful cards solo and it never works out. You need the entire playgroup on the same page, or you’ll just fall behind the people actually developing their board.
Somebody must have really hurt Josh with a Jeska’s Will. I’ve never thought that card was that big of a deal and definitely a step below some of these other things
It’s powerful, and in some situations can certainly shake up a game, but that’s assuming you get it early on. Unless your searching your deck a lot or drawing a lot it shouldn’t be too much of a recurring issue.
There are a few exceptions though, one of which I’m all too familiar with being prosper tome-bound. If someone plays jeskas will while prosper is out, pray they hit only lands.
@@amethystrose3480I have Jeska’ willed into an infinite combo a few times in my mono red EDH deck, the thing about that deck is that as far as power level, it’s easily 8-9, I could very easily tune it to play CEDH by swapping the commander (Urabrask the hidden) to one of my 99 in Godo. I love that deck because I can “play down” to the table and not go HAM if it wouldn’t be fun.
@@CajunJynx hmmm… I’ve always wanted to build a devil themed deck with Raphael, so maybe that would be cool, if he works with tieflings as well that is
All I got from this, is if I put any card in my deck that isn't a grizzly bear, I'm a tryhard level 8+ deck.
Eric Lem mention at: Thumbnail! 🎉
Recently I bought a New Capenna Collector Booster pack just because I saw it in store and I happen to pull a gilded foil Lord Xander, the Collector. I threw that into my Nicol Bolas, The Ravager commander deck which is a slow take control of everything deck and it felt like the power level shot up just because of how strong it is. I was also able to bring it back from the graveyard a few times so I was able to continue causing problems with it lol.
Can we stop talking about power levels of edh decks between 1-10? It doesnt work...
My favorite combo is Etali Primal Conqueror and Displacer Kitten. It often can loop into just playing your opens deck and yours for free lol. Especially if you happen to play an Elesh Norn Mother of machines as one of those nonland permanents. Once you play that and start blinking back Etali it’s just game over😂.
I don't think a single card can change the power level of a deck. How the deck is built, their synergy, and their interaction is what ultimately contributed to a power level.
If someone runs a Mana Crypt and the rest of their deck is jank and has no cohesive game plan, there's no way it'll even scratch what I consider a 7.
Everything you said about Bloodmoon is true and I agree with you. I do wish I could use Bloodmoon more often though because I love that card.
Late to the vid and loved it!
My only argument/addition would be to craterhoof(and now moonshaker calvary) being 8 not 7. Yes it requires setup and yes 7s are usually a combat meta but theyre like every other card mentioned just previously that they just don't feel good to win with anymore (torment of hailfire etc. you Have to counter spell them, Once it hits the field no amount of clever blocks or having removal for the hoof/calvary stops that trigger on the stack... short of a fog or instant board wipe, your board is 300+ damage and trample/flying.
Correcting some possibly misleading information in the video:
Countering the 2nd Approach of the Second Sun DOES stop the win. It has to resolve to have any effect.
I included an Ad Naus in my Karlov - life gain deck as a lower power replacement to Bolas's Citadel. The assumption was I could pay 15 - 25 life safely and for a reasonable draw. Before that whenever I resolved a Bolas' Citadel in the deck I would just win that turn or the next.
I'm trying to balance between power cards and keeping my level low enough to keep it fun for the table. This has been quite helpful on which cards to rotate with for lower level play, primarily the speed mana and heavy swings(compared to cost). I've been loving the refinement and powers of it rising, yet fear it is accelerated too far for casual play with such cards mentioned in the video. Planning to set up a rotation side to temper with consistency and speed so my commander can still fight to their heart's content. But waiting longer and fewer protections so the board isn't overwhelmed.
Laughed good at how I was thinking at peak(and current pieces coming along) just a shitty 8 with it being combat centric(lacking fliers, swarm, trample) but might be nine when I eventually get the biggest level boosters you've listed. In principle.
I have Jeska's Will in pia, thopters for the impulse draw its impulse and adventure with jor kadeen and tempered steel for pumps
Thanks for helping me realize I was wasting time on a deck idea. I was running too many good cards to make a bad strategy work.
Just did the math, it would take 8 mana dorks to have a 50% of one appearing in your first hand.
Extra math: If you allow yourself to mulligan twice in search of a dork, 8 dorks would net you an 88.5% chance at drawing a dork! You would only need 3 dorks in your deck to have a 50% chance at having one in your first hand after two mulligans.
In terms of mana dorks, having 9x 0-1 mana dorks/rocks gives you a ~50% chance of having at least 1 in opening hand. If you include the first draw, that 9 goes up to ~55%