I love this kind of video a lot - to be honest, more than the actual machining :D There is so much that goes into the planing of a project like this and its great to see your approach and preparation of tooling. Thank you Peter!
I've designed features like that. The cavities are just clearance pockets for electronic components. I can just about guarantee they were done almost by eye against the part envelope, and so were the corner reliefs. This video should be required viewing for designers, so they can understand why it's important to sanity-check your design against standard tooling like end mills. Also, such features should have generous use of MAX and MIN on the dimension where possible. You may have modeled it with a .125 radius but .25 might be just fine.
Yes I agree but in this case I have to machine to the drawings dimensions. The tolerance of the pockets isn’t real close. +-.010 but the corner radiuses could probably larger. But I don’t know. Thanks!
@@EdgePrecision I meant, in general, designers should put thought into giving you as much leeway as possible. This video is a great lesson to show why it matters. They may have done what they could on this part, who knows.
As one that have machined stuff like this I couldn't agree more. Good communication between designer/engineer and production is essential. Everyone benefits when the right tolerances and requirements can be set! (Thankfully I've managed to avoid copper, give me inconel any day!)
required viewing fir the designer - I agree. I also think that the extra cost for the needed tooling modifications should be deducted from the engineer/designer's pay along with an explanation. That would send the message home to the inexperienced designer.
I don't know anything about machining per se, but I have a good bit of experience with copper. It is definitely a difficult material (and expensive) to work with, whether it be soft or rigid, solid or tubing. As you mentioned, it's soft but very sticky. It has tons of issues with heat, and it work hardens basically instantly, which I'm sure is why it dulls carbide. It gets really surprisingly hard super fast. It can quickly and easily be annealed, but it will surely deform and that's not even remotely practical. Good luck with this. Sounds like the kind of job that warrants a pass.
@@EdgePrecision well there you have it. You mentioned it was a familiar job so not so much new engineering. If it pays well enough to satisfy you, that's all that really matters. Thanks for sharing.
Not that I have much experience with machining copper but I think two things are key with the tools (for the soft alloys): a sharp edge and a coating suited for copper (to avoid the build up edges mentioned in the video). However I don't think temperature is the problem since copper easily "cold welds" when under pressure (demo: take two clean copper wires at least a mm in diameter, put them across each other on an anvil and hit them with a hammer - they'll easily fuse). If jobs like this gets common it's probably worth having a chat with suppliers of cutting fluid to find one that minimises build up edges with copper.
As I said in the video. I'm not sure what is going on. But when I have milled pure copper this is what happens to the tool. Lets take a un-coated carbide endmill. It literally dulls the tool. There doesn't appear to be any (or very little) buildup of material on the flutes. Now carbide really isn't a solid material. It's what is known as a sintered material. Its made of compressed powder bound together with a binder then sintered at a high temperature to form the material we know as carbide. I think what is going on with copper and a carbide tool is this. The cut shaving flowing over the cutting edge of the tool is, at a molecular level welding to the binding material and dragging the carbide off the tool. This has the effect of eroding the cutting edge. So keeping everything cool and lubricated helps with this. Now a special coolant may indeed help here. But to change 300 gallons of coolant for one job. Not really feasible for me. Now a special coating again may indeed help here. But I looked into that and so far I could not find one specifically advertised for copper. But in any case this would be a very special, and probably very expensive/hard to obtain option. It is a less expensive and faster option to just replace standard easily available tooling as it wears out.
@@EdgePrecision Yeah choosing the "right" cutting fluid is difficult when the materials change a lot. But what sometimes helps is to adjust the concentration - your supplier should be able to advise on that (or it's time to find another supplier in my opinion). Same with coating, your tool supplier should be able to give good information (I'm spoiled with a supplier here in Sweden that even coats special ground cutters if needed).
Peter I have machined copper at a hobby level ( copper boilers for coal fired loco's) I found that HSS tooling worked better that carbide , the best carbide inserts were the high positive polished ones for aluminium , its a bit like the rules are for brass/bronze do not use the cutters/drills if they have been used on steel they will not cut as well if at all sorry if there are typos as my dyslexia is bad today looking forward to see how you approach the acutual cutting
Yes I would agree with you for your cutting conditions. With the slow speeds and manual type cutting strategies with no aggressive flood coolant. In this case the the small diameter tools I need in the pockets. I will need the rigidity of the carbide for their long projections. Except for some drills and maybe some reamers. I don't really use any HSS tooling anymore. I don't think I have but maybe a dozen (probably less) HSS endmills in my tool cabinet anymore.
Would you test your feeds and speeds on a piece of scrap copper for end mills and thread mills of this size? I'd hate to break a tool in the finish part is my thinking
I don’t know of anything. I think Titan made some web page where you could post your capabilities and possibly get work. You would have to do some research on his web page. titansofcnc.com/
Hi Peter, Could you favour roll threading for copper? I find neat cutting oil works better than water based coolants on C101, C109 and C111, but your Mazak is coolant based only I believe? Do you rotate the part to empty the cavities during the cycle?
Yes in my machines I use water soluble oil for coolant. No I am not going to need to rotate the part. These are small pockets and the coolant should have no trouble in flushing out the shavings. Because of the doors on this machine can’t be opened while it is running. It makes it impossible to apply any oil to a tap. So I prefer to mill threads whenever possible. Otherwise I might have tried to use form taps. But if I was to break a tap in one of these parts it would be a costly mistake. So I feel better milling the threads.
If you are referring to the holes I made the tap extension for. Not really. To do the circle for the 10-32 STI thread it’s like a 1/4-32 thread size. It would be very difficult. It would have to be a custom tool as well. Probably not impossible but for two holes I think tapping is the way to go.
We've machined a fair amount of C101 and have had good results using carbide tools meant for aluminum. I kinda like machining it right up until you leave coolant on it and it oxidizes a little making ruining the otherwise beautiful color.
Hello Peter. I was just curious how many threads deep did You end up tapping the small sti threads? Then If Your like me You don’t sleep well until the Hand tapping is complete!
This kind of depends on the Heli-Ciol insert going into the hole. Heli-Coil has data on this you can get on the web if you do a search. But on this drawing they specify a thread depth.
Many years ago when I was an apprentice we made a lot of EDM electrodes in copper, we used "brain killer" fluid for perfect finish in copper. Probably cant get that anymore. 🤔
I see the parts youre putting on this machine often are smaller than the typical work people would put on it. Does this cause significant headaches? Seems like the versatility of this big intergrex basically makes it a do all machine.
Its usually easier to do small parts on a large machine then large parts on a small (really to large for that machine) machine. Especially so on this machine because the milling spindle has a high max speed of 10,000 rpm with 50 Hp but still has plenty of low end torque. The turning spindle only has a 1600 rpm max speed and 60 Hp. But even that is high enough speed to turn most small parts. Yes for the majority of machine parts this type of machine is one of the most versatile machine.
I use the same inserts I machine with. Of course these jaws were aluminum. But on steel jaws slow down the speed and feed because the interrupted cut. A smaller depth of cut on the roughing passes would also be good.
@@EdgePrecision no I know that but for simple 2d machining which 3axis Milling operation do you usually use? solid mill free form ? or variable Z roughing? or do you use solid mill MOLD even if it's not 4 axis or 5 axis?
Maybe I’m not understanding what you are asking. The Mazak Integrex does both turning and milling. In fact I use this software (an older version) to program for my horizontal mill. I would use the same version but I need a proper simulation model and post to do that.
I love this kind of video a lot - to be honest, more than the actual machining :D
There is so much that goes into the planing of a project like this and its great to see your approach and preparation of tooling.
Thank you Peter!
Thanks Stefan!
I've designed features like that. The cavities are just clearance pockets for electronic components. I can just about guarantee they were done almost by eye against the part envelope, and so were the corner reliefs. This video should be required viewing for designers, so they can understand why it's important to sanity-check your design against standard tooling like end mills. Also, such features should have generous use of MAX and MIN on the dimension where possible. You may have modeled it with a .125 radius but .25 might be just fine.
Yes I agree but in this case I have to machine to the drawings dimensions. The tolerance of the pockets isn’t real close. +-.010 but the corner radiuses could probably larger. But I don’t know. Thanks!
@@EdgePrecision I meant, in general, designers should put thought into giving you as much leeway as possible. This video is a great lesson to show why it matters. They may have done what they could on this part, who knows.
As one that have machined stuff like this I couldn't agree more. Good communication between designer/engineer and production is essential. Everyone benefits when the right tolerances and requirements can be set!
(Thankfully I've managed to avoid copper, give me inconel any day!)
@@sharg0 Привет! Подскажи пожалуйста какими фрезами вы обрабатываете Inconel?
required viewing fir the designer - I agree. I also think that the extra cost for the needed tooling modifications should be deducted from the engineer/designer's pay along with an explanation. That would send the message home to the inexperienced designer.
There's a lot going on here; thank you for the insight particularly for working on copper.
Happy New Year! And thanks for letting us in on your thinking. Very interesting.
Great setup information Peter!!!
Thanks for this video. I’m starting a red copper job next week with some 55xDia holes, I think they’re some kind of radiators.
Amazing video!
Waiting inpatiently for the next part!) Thanks!)
I don't know anything about machining per se, but I have a good bit of experience with copper. It is definitely a difficult material (and expensive) to work with, whether it be soft or rigid, solid or tubing. As you mentioned, it's soft but very sticky. It has tons of issues with heat, and it work hardens basically instantly, which I'm sure is why it dulls carbide. It gets really surprisingly hard super fast. It can quickly and easily be annealed, but it will surely deform and that's not even remotely practical. Good luck with this. Sounds like the kind of job that warrants a pass.
We have done job before. So it is possible but you are correct it is difficult. But the money is good, no make that very good. So it will be worth it.
@@EdgePrecision well there you have it. You mentioned it was a familiar job so not so much new engineering. If it pays well enough to satisfy you, that's all that really matters. Thanks for sharing.
I have really missed your content, here is wishing you and your Wife a Happy and Healthy New Year.
Very interesting good job
Thanks Peter!
great video
Form taps. I make thousands of copper parts. M2 and M3. Hardly ever have any issues.
really like the tap extensions. very clever. i've never made one like that....yet.
All that extra effort you put into that steady rest was worth it I think. Be nice to get it case hardened to give it an extra cool look
Or how about QPQ.
Where do you buy your soft jaws? Love the vids, thanks!
Not that I have much experience with machining copper but I think two things are key with the tools (for the soft alloys): a sharp edge and a coating suited for copper (to avoid the build up edges mentioned in the video).
However I don't think temperature is the problem since copper easily "cold welds" when under pressure (demo: take two clean copper wires at least a mm in diameter, put them across each other on an anvil and hit them with a hammer - they'll easily fuse).
If jobs like this gets common it's probably worth having a chat with suppliers of cutting fluid to find one that minimises build up edges with copper.
As I said in the video. I'm not sure what is going on. But when I have milled pure copper this is what happens to the tool. Lets take a un-coated carbide endmill. It literally dulls the tool. There doesn't appear to be any (or very little) buildup of material on the flutes. Now carbide really isn't a solid material. It's what is known as a sintered material. Its made of compressed powder bound together with a binder then sintered at a high temperature to form the material we know as carbide. I think what is going on with copper and a carbide tool is this. The cut shaving flowing over the cutting edge of the tool is, at a molecular level welding to the binding material and dragging the carbide off the tool. This has the effect of eroding the cutting edge. So keeping everything cool and lubricated helps with this. Now a special coolant may indeed help here. But to change 300 gallons of coolant for one job. Not really feasible for me. Now a special coating again may indeed help here. But I looked into that and so far I could not find one specifically advertised for copper. But in any case this would be a very special, and probably very expensive/hard to obtain option. It is a less expensive and faster option to just replace standard easily available tooling as it wears out.
@@EdgePrecision Yeah choosing the "right" cutting fluid is difficult when the materials change a lot. But what sometimes helps is to adjust the concentration - your supplier should be able to advise on that (or it's time to find another supplier in my opinion).
Same with coating, your tool supplier should be able to give good information (I'm spoiled with a supplier here in Sweden that even coats special ground cutters if needed).
I'm fairly sure I used paraffin as a coolant for copper?
good video peter
Peter
I have machined copper at a hobby level ( copper boilers for coal fired loco's) I found that HSS tooling worked better that carbide , the best carbide inserts were the high positive polished ones for aluminium , its a bit like the rules are for brass/bronze do not use the cutters/drills if they have been used on steel they will not cut as well if at all
sorry if there are typos as my dyslexia is bad today
looking forward to see how you approach the acutual cutting
Yes I would agree with you for your cutting conditions. With the slow speeds and manual type cutting strategies with no aggressive flood coolant. In this case the the small diameter tools I need in the pockets. I will need the rigidity of the carbide for their long projections. Except for some drills and maybe some reamers. I don't really use any HSS tooling anymore. I don't think I have but maybe a dozen (probably less) HSS endmills in my tool cabinet anymore.
Hey!
Would you test your feeds and speeds on a piece of scrap copper for end mills and thread mills of this size? I'd hate to break a tool in the finish part is my thinking
i reckon he used to.
I ennoy your videos. Kinda relaxing to watch.
Question, is there a central dispatch type webcite for machinists to bid on jobs? Thanks
I don’t know of anything. I think Titan made some web page where you could post your capabilities and possibly get work. You would have to do some research on his web page. titansofcnc.com/
Xometry is a company that does that.
Hi Peter,
Could you favour roll threading for copper?
I find neat cutting oil works better than water based coolants on C101, C109 and C111, but your Mazak is coolant based only I believe?
Do you rotate the part to empty the cavities during the cycle?
Yes in my machines I use water soluble oil for coolant. No I am not going to need to rotate the part. These are small pockets and the coolant should have no trouble in flushing out the shavings. Because of the doors on this machine can’t be opened while it is running. It makes it impossible to apply any oil to a tap. So I prefer to mill threads whenever possible. Otherwise I might have tried to use form taps. But if I was to break a tap in one of these parts it would be a costly mistake. So I feel better milling the threads.
When machining a softer material such as copper is a different coolant required or will generic coolants suffice ?
I use the same coolant.
Did you consider thread milling the tapped holes at 6:14 ? Thanks for the video!
If you are referring to the holes I made the tap extension for. Not really. To do the circle for the 10-32 STI thread it’s like a 1/4-32 thread size. It would be very difficult. It would have to be a custom tool as well. Probably not impossible but for two holes I think tapping is the way to go.
@@EdgePrecision Thanks for the reply
Yes thanks for the explanation. I was wondering about this.
We've machined a fair amount of C101 and have had good results using carbide tools meant for aluminum. I kinda like machining it right up until you leave coolant on it and it oxidizes a little making ruining the otherwise beautiful color.
What do you use ansys 2021 r2 for? Is that Sapceclaim?
nice
I doubt they make STI form taps, but I've always had good luck with 4-40 and 2-56 form taps in copper.
Hello Peter. I was just curious how many threads deep did You end up tapping the small sti threads? Then If Your like me You don’t sleep well until the Hand tapping is complete!
This kind of depends on the Heli-Ciol insert going into the hole. Heli-Coil has data on this you can get on the web if you do a search. But on this drawing they specify a thread depth.
I call it abrasive like aluminium
Many years ago when I was an apprentice we made a lot of EDM electrodes in copper, we used "brain killer" fluid for perfect finish in copper.
Probably cant get that anymore. 🤔
I see the parts youre putting on this machine often are smaller than the typical work people would put on it. Does this cause significant headaches? Seems like the versatility of this big intergrex basically makes it a do all machine.
Its usually easier to do small parts on a large machine then large parts on a small (really to large for that machine) machine. Especially so on this machine because the milling spindle has a high max speed of 10,000 rpm with 50 Hp but still has plenty of low end torque. The turning spindle only has a 1600 rpm max speed and 60 Hp. But even that is high enough speed to turn most small parts. Yes for the majority of machine parts this type of machine is one of the most versatile machine.
@Edge Precision thanks.
I have a question. What kind of insert I use for an interuppted cut. For example to rotate jaws?
I use the same inserts I machine with. Of course these jaws were aluminum. But on steel jaws slow down the speed and feed because the interrupted cut. A smaller depth of cut on the roughing passes would also be good.
Do you send the customer these videos? So they can get an appreciation for what happens on the other side?
No I don’t. But there are sometimes people that work at these places that watch my videos.
do you ever use solid mil free form for 2d machining? say contouring or profiling or pocketing ??
The software I pretty much exclusively use is Esprit TNG for the Mazak.
@@EdgePrecision no I know that but for simple 2d machining which 3axis Milling operation do you usually use?
solid mill free form ? or variable Z roughing? or do you use solid mill MOLD even if it's not 4 axis or 5 axis?
I use the same software for everything.
@@EdgePrecision the features ? of the software
what do you use for milling
let's go INSIDE THE ESPRIT
Maybe I’m not understanding what you are asking. The Mazak Integrex does both turning and milling. In fact I use this software (an older version) to program for my horizontal mill. I would use the same version but I need a proper simulation model and post to do that.
Aluminum
That is a strange part.
It looks pretty straightforward until you look at all the details.
But what IS it? What is "the part?"
I don't really know. I think because of the material and the milling it is used for a heat sink for electrical parts that are mounted on it.
I’d rather machine Monel k then copper…can lose money very quickly on copper jobs like machine Glue