I personally quit Pauper in lieu of Keyforge. I had a Pauper Gauntlet of sorts to play with relatives that came over for pick-up games, but Keyforge is just way more interesting, easy to learn, balanced, and cheaper. Also, it's a nice change of pace. PS. Anyone want to buy some Pauper decks?
how dare you enjoy playing magic the gathering at your local game store! alas I understand and I guess I will just have to be patient for the next video, if only there were something going on this weekend to occupy my time :p
Thanks Prof for mentioning Keyforge. LOL My first deck I opened was called Professor J Chronocode a deck best described as an aristrocratian auric ''hasty''ready themed deck:P
I work at my LGS in London. Myself and a colleague were extremely interested at first because Garfield games are usually well made. We got the prerelease sets with a few decks and learned to play and were hooked for the same reasons you were. Our hype and energy spread to our regulars and we had 8-10 people almost every week to play the game in a variety of formats. I don't think we ran the same style of tournament more than once. However, by December, the hype had died. A lot of us all owned 5+ decks, and we had played enough games that we all understood how those decks worked and played against each other. I think a lot of the reason why so many of us were into it at first was because the feeling of learning something new gives you a bit of an adrenaline rush, like a sort of gratification. Once there was nothing to learn without buying new decks, it was tough to keep going, because the amount of time and effort needed to strategize and learn how to utilise a new deck decreased with each one you buy. So the gratification per deck decreased. A few of us mass bought a few displays just to keep us overwhelmed, but even that rush wore off very quickly. The week before Christmas we finally had a zero attendance tournament. A big factor was that there was no actual Organized Play system in place. We gave out store credit, and other things where we could. Fantasy Flight even sent us a big chart/poster where we could track the winning houses of each weekly tournament, but when we asked them for the House-specific promo sets to give out, we were told "we don't know anything about that, there's nothing else to give". So there was even less reason to play because there was no more reward for playing the game itself, and there was nothing to play for in a physical sense. I still think the game is very well designed, but the issue with Magic is that it's a game that has now come to be built around being optimised. Keyforge is impossible to optimise for this reason. However, a lot of us in the store quickly went and learned all the cards in existence and figured out what was good and what was bad; what to look for when you opened a new deck. As a result of that, there was literally no more "learn how this works and have fun discovering new stuff". So in a way, you were absolutely correct about having the fun sucked out of it. Is that an issue with the attitude of us as Magic players? Perhaps. But I also feel that the card pool is extremely limited; when you open a deck, you already have an idea of what gets procedurally added, what patterns to look out for, etc. It's also been two months and there's been no news of an actual Organised Play network or new cards/new decks/whatever. I still enjoy playing the game, because in Magic, I am a combo player who likes to spend 15 minutes building a rube goldberg machine in my head and figuring out exactly how this combo is going to happen. It's why I also enjoy Vanguard and Weiss Schwarz, because those games are all about planning and sequencing. Keyforge rewards these skills greatly, but the issue is that nobody has a drive to play it anymore because the game was a bit too easy to solve for us. I still have faith, but a lot needs to be done to keep the game sustained.
aequusReliquary Very cool comment. I haven’t played the game with another person before but from the videos I’ve seen so far the biggest thing working against tournament play and more fun in general is the randomly generated decks where the cards can synergies heavily or just be a deck or randomly thrown together cards. Although it’s the core of the game, I think that is also the game biggest flaw as knowing what every card does doesn’t help when you can’t make your own deck where you can try something wacky or synergistic as you’re basically forced to get new decks after a while as you just now what your deck does without a way to interact with it, like removing a oppressive card in your deck to create a more fun deck to play for nigh players. A big help would also be a tool to create a random deck via a website where you put in 3 houses and get a random name and a list of cards to put in the deck (this could also work by sleeving the cards and having restrictions on what cards can be in your deck for example). This way the player has to look trough his cards to build the deck, which in return increases the time the player spends with the game itself as you could look at a card and be like “Hey, this seems fun, let’s try it” or be like “This could be a cool synergy/combo”. This way there are new and interesting decks to play against.
I absolutely love Keyforge. My main game is still Magic but it is suuuuper nice having a game where you don't need to spend hundreds of dollars to be competitive. The gameplay is really fun and the strategy is great. I highly recommend it for any Magic players who have felt kinda burned out by the staleness of Modern or Standard. Plus even if you don't end up liking it, it only cost you 10 bucks.
I agree. At least for now, Keyforge will almost entirely replace Magic for my kitchen table and Magic will only get played competitively at events. I'm still keeping all my Magic cards and will play it from time to time. You can buy a big library of Keyforge decks (I'm aiming for one of each of the 35 possible 3-house combinations) for less than the cost of a single competitive Magic deck and that appeals to me very much. Also, Keyforge does have a secondary market. You just trade whole decks instead of singles.
KeyForge is the best card game I have ever played. I played Magic for over a decade 10-60 hours a week depending on the time in my life. I have played magic twice in the last two months now. I never would have expected this before the game came out
You're probably just feeling the same as you did when you started playing magic. Make a cube, or just draft. These are the best ways to enjoy magic in terms of having fun. Every person at the table has the same chance, and it all comes down to skill and, true, bit of luck, but you can't say that luck isn't a part of a game where every deck is random.
@SnappyJon and @cody centers over a year later and I still feel the same way. Any time I go back and play magic I feel like I'm playing an extremely outdated game and within a few games decide "well that was enough of that". In keyforge there is a lot more interaction and less rng so when I win it feels better and when I lose it is less frustrating. My one critique is that the only online client is not official and is run by fans and while they do a great job, the game could use an official online client (especially during the pandemic). Before the pandemic I drove to every vault tour (like a gp) that was within 20 hours of driving from central texas and few to a few other ones. I even flew to New York to play in the albany vault tour instead of playing in the modern gp (my favorite mtg format) that was in Austin (the city I live in). While I am looking forward to the day I can get back to going to as many vault tours as I can, I am currently enjoying a bunch of online leagues run by various communities in the mean time :) Edit: forgot to respond to the decks question. While I have plenty of competitive and engaging decks from each set, I still buy more every once in a while because I want to (and to support my LGS during the pandemic).
Started playing a month ago, fell in love with my decks and learned to use them properly. Are there imbalances? yes. Can you overcome a powerful deck if you play well? yes. There are always counter - options, the game feels fresh, you have a lot of choices to make each turn and 1vs1 games are not a curb stomp against netdecks. I highly suggest anyone who loves MTG to give this game a good try.
Great video as always Professor, my brother and I have been out of MTG for a while but this concept sounds very interesting. Think I might pick up some decks and give it a shot, thank you!
As an ex / now very casual MTG player, I love this game. Not a money pit, and just very fun. The awesome thing is, as you learn your deck, the game just gets deeper. I got a deck at pre-release, thought it was awful, then gradually learnt to play the deck and the process has been very fun. It does reflect those early days of MTG where you just mashed together whatever cards you had.
I also love that I don't spend hours on meta and deck construction research. Just sit down and play. I can't recommend it enough as a former MtG player.
I was highly sceptical of keyforge when I first had it described to me, it sounded like the gameplay of a deck building game without the fun of building your deck. Then when I played it I was glad to see I was wrong, It's a fun game that lets you feel very powerful as you play and no matter how far behind I looked on the board it always felt possible to come back. I would recommend it though as you said the markup on the starter is a bit sad and I'd maybe have a look for some nicer alternative tokens if you really fancy dropping £20 on them.
Dream146 It’s about barriers to entry. Building a deck may certainly be fun for some, but many, especially those who aren’t CCG veterans, may get overwhelmed or intimidated with trying to juggle the thousands of cards you could potentially use in your deck, not to mention having to cough up oodles of cash for boosters and singles to actually make said deck. Keyforge’s premade decks are intended to get around that issue to lower the barriers to entry and make the game more interesting and accessible to newbies.
One thing is worth mentioning here - MtG is NOT a deck-building game. Well, KeyForge is not one of such either, so it clearly means that KF is actually not taking anything away from MtG. Deck-bulilding as a term is one of the in-game mechanics that makes/forces/encourages players to create their own decks during the game (take Dominion, Aeon's End for instance). So in case of MtG/KF you could rather say that these are deck-depleting games. Nevertheless, both are great games in their own way. I am not a Magic fan at all, mostly because I've never played it, although I do have an idea what is it all about. It's been with us for almost 30 years now so people simply do not want to give up upon it, also because of the trading aspect so that they can earn a penny or two by selling their 'M' cards.
Adaptive format is the best way to play. After round 1, players exchange decks, and if it goes to the third round, players must bid chains to play with the winning deck. Best of 3 wins the match up
I like the idea of Triad. It adds a level of customization similar to Beyblade where you bring 3 decks to play with. One gets benched by your opponent, switch decks for game 2, then use whichever deck you won with if it goes to game 3. EDIT: I described that wrong. You only switch to your other deck if you win with the first; therefore you have to win with both decks to win the round.
Interesting review. I need to mention that the low potential for competitive games is not necessarily bad. It's good that the review talks about it, but just keep in mind that a game doesn't need to succeed at both casual and competitive gameplay to be a good game. Of course, many games try to do so, some succeed, but also several fail at both because they don't focus enough on either. If the game succeeds at either playstyle, I think it's still a success.
Transformers, from WotC, has no organized play. But it's raking in cash and people love it. KeyForge does have official Organized Play from Fantasy Flight Games, and there will be a World Championship.
I’m actually really enjoying the competitive scene because it avoids the issue a lot of other competitive cars games have and that is often those who win competitive are often those who simply have the most money to spend on the game. With this not so much because there’s no market for singles. People can go through tons of decks looking for special combos but they’re never going to get a perfect game breaking one and as a result theres almost no meta. So I’ll never show up to a tournament of say 30 people 20 of which are all playing the same deck as happens in other card games all the time.
I've already taught it to at least a few kids in the high school Magic club I advise and each one had loved it! There were some habits from Magic to overcome (untapping/readying at the end instead of at the start of the turn, drawing up to a full hand at the end and NOT drawing at the beginning), but they've enjoyed it. In general, I've haven't really had an unfun game; every game has been just as unique as the decks.
Awesome that you took a look at this game Prof! I'm a heavy tabletop/boardgame gamer and this has certainly been one of the bigger releases recently! Personally, I thought the game is great as a casual card game. So it's best enjoyed as sort of a battle box collection of decks. It's closest comparison to MTG of course is in limited, and pricing wise, it falls between that weird space of being more slightly more expensive than draft (3 packs) and way more cheaper than sealed (6 packs). Also there are no chaff cards in the end. Gameplay wise, I think given the random nature of decks, there are still too many "non-games" where your deck just doesn't match up very well against another. Richard Garfield brought back a lot of the "hate" and "enemy" concepts of early MTG in the game, and you can get really blown out by a "hate" card that works well against your strategy. I also find gameplay to be quite grindy, as board states can get much more complex than MTG, but not necessarily more enjoyable. But perhaps my lack of familiarity with the deeper nuances of the game's strategies is also factoring in here. Lastly, the publisher Fantasy Flight Games, does not have the best track record in keeping CCGs alive over time. They have 1 or 2 that lasted more than 5 years, but mostly they kill their card games in as little as over 2 years for a variety of reasons. Quite a bummer for those who are looking for some longevity in their CCGs. Overall, I will be happy to invest in a couple of decks, and might visit a couple of "sealed" tournaments just to open a bunch of new decks and play with friends in a level playing field. I'm excited to see where they take the concept of the "unique deck" and Keyforge in the future. Keep up the good work Prof! And more non-MTG content like this is always welcome. Big fan of yours here from the Philippines!
To counteract people using unbeatable decks or getting tired of your decks, one of my local stores is running "Feeble Deck Bash" tournaments. You bring in your weakest deck, and you and your opponent exchange decks so you play against your own deck. Going to attend my first one of these soon, as it sounds like fun.
I agree totally mtg always seemed too daunting to get into based on the deck building and secondary market for singles and such. I played pokemon and yugioh when I was younger but keyforge really felt well rounded enough to get into. Been playing for a couple months now and it quickly became and addiction lol.
@@The_Murder_Party if you read my comment I mention the secondary market and the price for singles. I'm well aware I could play with less competitive people and shitty cards but that's stupid. Keyforge gives you a COMPLETE experience for 10 dollars. I've purchased close to 100 KF decks and maybe only pulled 5 or 6 decks that I really dont likem. Which is why I consider it a more well rounded experience all together.
@@shplangerz9886 jesus chirst money is an issue for magic but you're fine with dropping a grand on keyforge? It's only been available for a couple of months.
I absolutely adore Keyforge! Please, more keyforge content. The thing is, I actually gave up Magic about 2 years ago. Not because I wanted to, but because I simply couldn't afford it. I was and still am extremely poor and was crushed that I can't play and have fun because I don't have the money. Truth be told, I do love MTG, but I only fell in love with it because it was a strategic game that people consistently played. I'm loyal to that experience; not planeswalkers. In my opinion, Keyforge absolutely fixes everything I hated about magic. I understand that people only see it as a casual addition to the card playing environment. However, I have completely converted over. Watching you and LLR are the only ways I interact with MTG anymore. I would love the occasional video about Keyforge. Especially a video about deck boxes, sleeves and tokens that are compatible. The cards are standard size, but the deck size is smaller than most games. Dropping mana really trims the fat. An investigation into containers that work well would be exceedingly appreciated. Even if it was just a rapid fire of products you've already reviewed. You have the expertise and the collection to save people hundreds of hours of trial and error. Who knows, maybe old failures could become new gems.
Draft, Cube and Pauper are for you, my friend. If you haven't got other buddies to play formats that aren't so common head on to mtg arena, where you can get started for free against people of varying skill levels
@@jake_russ No thanks,. I've had problems with all three. And I'm not interested in playing online. Face to face is the reason I play. Maybe one day. But I'm all about Keyforge now.
Tory Evans If you have a printer you can always print proxies. Your cards can even be black and white if you want. Then just glue the paper that is shaped like a Magic card and then glue them to a basic land, or just put it in a card sleeve.
@@casperockley9244 Sorry but that's part of the problem. I shouldn't have to print up certain cards just to play. Now I'm just chasing the meta and I'm doing it in a completely non-competitive way. I shouldn't have to do all this work just to play. With Keyforge I just get to play. I don't have to research what cards are good in draft ahead of time. I don't have to pray I get a shark land. I don't get told I'm using the wrong cards. I just get to play. Keyforge is an immensely freeing game. Printing proxy cards just feels like shackles. Thank you but no thank you.
Tory Evans sounds like duel decks might be for you. The real question then, of course, is if you can find someone else to play with. Have you considered a Challenger deck precon? Challenger/EDH format inherently balances out power levels between people playing with Legacy or even Vintage power levels and those playing the simple precons.
I've played magic since 1994 and nothing has ever brought back the pure joy and excitement that early MTG play had like Keyforge, it's an absolute blast. Highly recommend it.
I believe I’ve had the opposite experience as the average tcg player since Keyforge was my first tcg game i bought. I was hooked after i bought my first starter kit and started buying more and more decks not even to be competitive but to have a balanced collection between all houses and play styles. Funny thing is Keyforge actually led me to trying magic via arena and I just recently bought my very first physical magic products in a planeswalker deck and booster bundle.
I love cards games and I have played a lot of them : Although Keyforge is a good game for beginners I don't recommend it for a veteran player. While the gameplay removes the mana screw, it adds another screw: the house screw. If you can play near all your cards versus only two is a big deal at the start of the game (and same things in the later turns if you want to activate a house but has none of it in your hand). It's the luck of the draw... Deckbuilding (in magic or in any games), while making a deck more powerful has the primary objective to make the deck more consistent. You can't do that in keyforge. and an inconsistent deck makes you at the mercy of luck and remove a lot of tactical planning during the game. But many magic the gathering players already know what playing keyforge feels like: if they ever once played with a pre-constructed deck against another preconstructed deck it's the same feeling. (add it the fact you don't know what pre-constructed deck you bought).
Over the holidays while my friend was visiting he introduced me to Keyforge and we played a few games. My first 3 games almost every hand I had a 2-2-1 house split almost consistently throughout the game. At least in magic I know I'll get mana screwed so I can build my deck (in commander) in such a way that I can almost ensure I will be able to do something.
I’ve been a long time fan of MTG, my dad even longer. We both really enjoyed keyforge, mostly because we are both not interested in buying thousands of mtg cards anymore and mostly just play with precons against each other. Keyforge provides a way better casual experience than even WotC precons. Keyforge would really REALLY benefit from some multiplayer rulesets (like two headed giant or 3v3 variants). Another thing about keyforge that I love is that every turn is chock full of choices and your plan can go lots of directions at the beginning of your turn. Keyforge decks don’t suffer from “playing themselves” like some magic decks can.
I completely agree with your take on it. I don't feel it's great for competitive play and is not a replacement for magic for me but is a good substitute if I'm with friends and feel like playing something different
Don't forget if you accumulate enough chains (win tournaments) the busted deck will ascend and be banned competitively and be marked as such in the official app.
to be clear. in store tournaments are ,,chain bound" where all of the in app balancing takes place. when a deck rraches certain point (by winning of course) is banned from chain bound events (still its VERY HARD TO DO) but above store ranked events are called ,,unbound" where players can use their stronghest decks to play. they designed it that way to prevent single decks to dominate local metas.
My friends and I all chipped in to get the starter set and 4 extra decks. we just keep them sleeved up and in the starter box and use it as a board game honestly. One of the main reasons we love Magic is the deck building aspect.
I feel like Keyforge is perfect for us who like casual Magic. Its a low entry fee with little previous card playing experience needed, which also makes it a good gateway game to get into Magic. I also like the original concept that you are supposed to buy one deck & learn how it works inside & out rather than contently buying new decks. I don't think that last part will stick, but it was a nice gesture.
It stops becoming a low entry fee when you realize that the deck you just bought sucks. Then you buy another one, only to find out that one sucks. I think this will end up being more expensive in the end.
I haven't gotten any decks yet but I've been following the game since November. Honestly because I'm such a sentimental person, and like the idea of buying a deck and learning it's ins and outs without changing it. I look forward to trying the game out as a fun casual pastime or at least a short lived fun experience.
Quick note for double sleeving: KMC Perfect Fits + Dragon Shield Sleeves are a pretty tight fit. The Keyforge cards are slightly larger than MTG cards, and it may reduce the effectiveness of double sleeving.
Thanks for sharing something from another gaming community! It's always good to see how other games are doing. My Commander group has mixed feelings about the game. I love it, and one of my groups members does too, but another one hates it because he wouldn't have any control over his deck. Keyforge cards are slightly taller than MTG cards, and I've heard not all sleeves fit precisely. So if you feel like doing more videos on Keyforge, Professor, sleeves would be a helpful topic. Speaking of card games that need advice on sleeving, have you heard of Transformers? It has doublesided oversized character cards, which need different types of sleeves, and WotC keeps coming up with new surprises. Fans of the game are a bit troubled as to which sleeves to use. I know you prefer talking about MTG, but I feel Transformers is a game where players could really use some advice from you, Professor.
My local shop has been hosting keyforge events since release, we've been doing sealed events (buy a deck and that's your entry fee and deck you use) and everyone has enjoyed this because it feels balanced especially in a low income area where not everyone can afford a competitive magic deck. Also, given the fact that Fantasy Flight provides the prize support it really has been a successful game. Overall, for the competitive scene I completely agree, but in a local shop environment, this game is amazing and the community is amazing.
My family came to Keyforge from Pokemon TCG. The learning curve was a little steep, but now my wife and daughter are hooked. I did not buy the starter set but put all money towards buying decks. I made amber out of small wooden cubes from dollar store then coloured them orange and repurposed pokemon dice damage counters to use for shield (blue dice) , and power bonus (red dice).
I absolutely love Keyforge. I'm game store owner and its very cool to see this game find an audience with all ages especially middle school kids. We have a teacher that is a regular of the shop and at lunch time he plays Keyforge with his students. I've also have seen this game bring families to the gaming table as well. Makes me feel like i'm providing a valuable service instead of just making sales. Another thing I like about keyforge compared to Magic is I think the Magic community gets too caught up in competitive play instead of having fun. Games are made to be fun and Keyforge delivers.
For me, deck building is one of the most exciting parts of magic. I get a rush of energy and excitement when all the cool cards I have are coming together in cool ways (the other half of the fun comes from doing the cool stuff in game, of course). That element being absent also means I'm gambling on whether or not I enjoy the playstyle my deck does best, and so on. I may give it a try, but my expectations are set accordingly.
As someone who is terrible at deck-building, I'll admit the idea of a pre-con deck that is competitive with/ doesn't have to compete with custom decks is quite appealing.
My wife and I bought the starter box; it is worth the money. The game is competitive, interesting, and fun. We loved not worrying about mana, and it’s nice not having to worry about a collection. The decks are already ready.
Thanks for making this video, Prof! My friends and I recently got into Keyforge and I use it as a break from playing Magic as well. I actually just won a tournament the other night! Your comments on the competitive nature of the game are spot on. The tournament I won, and the format I find enjoyable is sealed. The other events I've been to were riddled with deck sharks carrying insanely powerful decks. If nothing changes, then I feel like outside of sealed, the tournament scene will have a lot of balance issues. But again, I appreciate the spotlight you've given to this exciting new game.
I liked a lot of the mechanics in Keyforge. One downside if there is a few cards in the deck you opened you hate there is no way to remove them other than buying a new deck.
I work at an LGS and we sold out of the starter sets and decks within a week... that was over a month ago. Players are growing frustrated with me even when I inform them that our distributer has it on back order.
I haven't played Keyforge yet, but I really like the concept of this game as a MTG player. Taking out the deckbuilding aspect of the game will help bring a broader audience to the table to have a more casual, fun match. But it also would help people focus on timing and execution of cards during their turns, which would be a good tool for people to learn better for MTG as well.
I've gotten into Keyforge, and I like it a lot. Not being able to construct decks is less of a downside for me than expected. I like how I now have unmutable, unique decks that live online and gain a history - and possible chains once it's shown the deck is too good. That is a part that was missing from the review. Yes, Spikes will try to find better decks, but the balance will be maintained due to the chain system. If a deck does too well, basically it's pilot will draw less and less cards, until they are on par again with the meta.
I’ve been playing non-stop since getting my hands on a few of the almost always sold out decks. Everyone I teach the game to immediately buys in. The low cost of entry and easy to teach gameplay make it perfect for growing a small community in no time. It’s currently my primary game but again that low cost of entry makes it a perfect side game.
I think the game is oriented more towards people new to CCGs, who may be overwhelmed and intimidated by the idea of having to juggle the thousands of cards you could potentially use, or not have the deep pockets to buy the boosters and singles needed to actually make the deck. Keyforge with its premade deck tries to get around that, lower the barriers to entry, and make the game more accessible and interesting to newcomers.
The way cards have no cost is really interesting to me as a Yugioh player, used to being able to play basically any card for free. If my ONE (1) local hobby store stocks it i'll be sure to check it out.
It's always nice to see a game attempt to fix the mana problems inherent to MTG. Another solution I really liked came from Duel Masters. In that game you get to play any card as a land. This means you always have enough mana and it leaves you with intresting choices: which do I play, and which do I play as lands? too bad the game's dead in the west though
And Richard Garfield saves game design again. In all seriousness, I see Garfield as the Nintendo of traditional games. For example, with his work on Solforge, it truly did take advantage of the digital format. Wasn't the greatest game, but the point was that it was innovative. And now, a desire to return to the core that is part of why I love sealed and old magic? Nice.
I like Keyforge, I find that when I am waiting to play a game of MTG Commander I'll play a quick game of Keyforge. I love how simple it seems at first but than the deeper strategies begin to emerge after a few games with your unique deck. The thing I find most interesting though, despite the randomness, is that each deck I have played with or against can win, like most games I've played both players have forged 2 keys and have basically went through their decks. I've not had such close games in MTG in years. LOL The only problem I have with Keyforge is that it reminds me of the things I hate in MTG: drawing a land, not drawing a land, having 60 cards and rarely seeing all the cards in the deck, always buying new cards, deck building becomes a chore, even playing the game with all the rulings becomes a chore and just knowing that no matter what some decks will always beat you UNLESS you use these key cards in standard right now. My most ''weakest'' keyforge decks can still win with or without bidding chains, my weakest MTG deck cannot unless it fights a deck of suitable power lvl even than I need them lands! Do I feel a scoop coming on?:P
I learned to play Keyforge during a casual tournament hosted by a friend at his house. I like Magic more, though. The house-system feels very opressive to me (if my English is correct. I speak Dutch). I can always only use one third of my hand or battlefield. Practically meaning you have three hands at the same time. In Magic, having a bunch of creatures down pretty much means you're winning. In Keyforge, you need to "select a battlefield" and sometimes that third doesn't synergise that well with itself. Also, in Magic you can "pull yourself ahead". In Keyforge you can only push your opponent back (not fun for your opponent) I tilted right before the end of the tournament. Me and my opponent could only blow each others stuff up for three turns (highly frustrating for both of us) and then he stole all my amber and won.
If you are focusing on board control, creatures and combat, like MTG, you're making a fundamental mistake. This is the mistake I made at the pre-release event I went to and lost my first few games because I treated it like MTG. It's more a tempo game, and combat is really only used when you need to fire fight. Now I've played more, I have to say it's an awesome game.
I've played quite a bit of KeyForge, I super dig it. I haven't run into any problems with truly weak decks. A few friends pulled Horsemen decks, but I really think people should try it. It's really fun and worth your time.
Personally, I love so much about this game. I got the starter set for Christmas and picked up a few additional decks along the way. The only thing that I don’t like is that the games take forever. I’ve tried at least 6 times to play and I’ve never been able to finish one. To be fair, it’s been mostly learning, but it just takes forever to get going.
Tried it and love it! Keyforge has been great for my family and friends. Yet, it has a ton of deeper complex gameplay to keep me excited and engaged. I highly recommend it to everyone!
Funny how people comment on KeyForge being "unbalanced". The game is only out for 2 months and im guessing you all didnt buy 50+ decks to test that theory. Maybe the few decks you own are playing not well against others? So far, i encountered only that the Mars faction seems a bit underpowered/chaotic/unusable. Maybe that has to do with the fact that the Mars faction was a late addition to the other factions during game design. Lets hope this gets better with the next set. And about the Mana screw/drain in MTG. Yes, in Keyforge you get restricted by your active house. But come on, that is not a "House screw" similar to MTG. So far if have never been able not to play anything on my turn. Which could happen in MTG. But enough of comparing the two. Magic has a rich 25+ year history. And KF is not competing with that. KeyForge offers a very interesting take on the collectible format with great gameplay. I think KF offers great "balanced" gameplay out of the box, sealed or with your own deck against each other. Somehow playing sealed in MTG seems a lot harder with more randomness if you need to construct a good deck with a few boosters. Also a lot of fun in 2 headed giants environments of course. either way KF is a great take on Collectible Deck Games (new acronym ?!) and i cant wait for the next set...
Chains, the "balancing" feature of Keyforge which restricts drawing (sometimes to incredible degrees) *could* balance a tournament scene *if* Fantasy Flight sticks with the game. Something not mentioned in the video, and rightfully so considering the main talking points, is deck registering. Fantasy Fight expect and will probably require decks to be registered when you go to a tournament. From here, especially in a tournament setting, wins and losses are tracked and processed. Cards that are deemed powerful will almost certainly have a Chain value assigned to them to help keep the balance. Winning or high ranking tournament decks will likely see a Chain ranking tied to them as a whole meaning if your deck wins a major tournament, it will be hampered in the next tournament you play it in. This will encourage, but not force, players to continue to bring different decks to minor and major tournaments assuring there isn't one deck to rule them all. The tools are all there and the exploding popularity of the game points to Fantasy Flight sticking with it for at least a few years. Major sanctioned tournaments are planned through 2020 and minor hobby store tournaments with official Fantasy Flight prizes are currently taking place. Over a half million decks have already been registered at the Fantasy Flight website and it would make sense to believe many more have been purchased, but not registered. I know in my local area core sets were instantly sold out and even decks are extremely rare. Just thought I'd throw some additional insight onto a great video!
Myself and many others I know who do game streaming enjoy the game. Is it perfect no but its been the closest thing to rivaling magic for many people. As you mentioned it solves a lot of problems. The various tournament formats for competitive play seem to help keep it interesting and fair in most cases. I think going forward in the next few months we get new formats, new sets, pro play those things will be one of the deciding factors in the staying power of the game. How a games expansion is handled especially the way this one is made will make a difference. Its nice for people to stay playing the game as there are no pricey cards needed to stay competitive the way they have things set up. I got a full box of 12 decks for Christmas skipped the starter box. Its nice to be able to play it on Tabletop Sim and Crucible as well. Great ways to test your decks or play against folks when you cant get to your local store to enjoy some game time.
I have seen a possible competitive format floating around the community. 1) Everyone shows up with 3 decks 2)When you sit down with your opponent you will both ban 1 of each other's decks that you don't want to play against. 3) Out of the 2 remaining you pick which one of your's that you want to play. I like this since it stops the problem of someone showing up with one busted deck and crushing the whole tournament.
I've played quite a few games of Keyforge and picked up a few decks. Although fun it's always felt quite unbalanced. One deck was hard to beat because it was full of removal. Another I had seemed to be based on artifacts whereas my opponent had cards that shut them down, rendering a degree of my deck ineffective. I also had a deck that had cards to make my attacks with creatures generate amber, but only featured a couple of actual creatures of that colour and no way to activate creatures outside of that house with the card. Things like this have made me feel although I enjoyed the gameplay, the outcomes of games felt largely out of my hands and that just a series of things happened, with any wins or losses feeling more luck than actual skill. Now it's become more about finding a deck with a silly name than actually getting decks to play. I'd give it a C+. A fun diversion for a while, but not worth sinking too much time, or money into.
That's a trademark of Richard Garfield game design, (un?)fortunately. Think of MTG cards like Blood Moon, Boil, or Rule of Law. Garfield likes designing game pieces that punish opponents for being greedy or synergizing too much, aka pieces that create stories you'll reminisce about. "One time I played a guy with all Dual Lands, and then I played Blood Moon and he lost right away!" In this game, some randomly generated decks are super good because they synergize: high creature count, all spells that create Amber, 6 board wipe/AOE effects. However, all of these super powerful decks have counter-strategies that make your highly oiled machine look like garbage (respectively, the above decks all lose horribly to the one on the left of the list). That's why with Keyforge, a well-rounded, middle of the road deck will often be better ON AVERAGE than one of the busted-looking ones that are easily countered.
It's not a git gud problem. You can definitely outplay someone who has a better deck but there's no changing the fact in one game I had a card that destroyed all humans. They just had a board wipe... and around 2 humans.
its card game, there will always be situations when you have luck on draw or your oponent doesnt. in comparison 9/10 games i play are damn close and often 1 turn is the doffrence between winning or loosing. and i play with multiple oponents and with multiple decks. here the key is to KNOW your deck, its strenghts and weakneses and play around them. sure sometimes you will have bad cards in deck but still you can do something about it.
hey Prof, Good review. As a magic player, I really really enjoy key forge, but I do think that the way it is designed makes it much different than MtG when it comes to organised play. There is no deck building, true. But the unique deck opens up a myriad of possibilities of play this way. Even sealed/draft is very different. I have talked about this with some people and saw ideas as: - constructed reversal : you bring and register a deck to play, but each match your opponent plays with your deck. You need to defeat your own deck each round. - Auction sealed : Everyone opens a deck and reads all the deck lists. Then each player bids chains (which limits the way a deck works) to play a deck in that tournament. Each round you begin with the amount of chains your winning bid was. - Survival Sealed : You get 3 sealed decks. Each time you lose a match, you are not allowed to play that deck anymore for the remainder of the tournament. - Survival Constructed : You bring 3 decks. Each time you lose a match, you are not allowed to play that deck anymore of the tournament. - best-of-two sealed : You get 2 sealed. Games are best of three. If you lose a game, you have to play your other deck. - best-of two reversal sealed: You get 2 sealed. Games are best of three. If you win a game, you have to play your other deck. This is all wildly different from MtG organised play. And i do think this part for me was throwing my preconceptions about tournament play from MtG out of the window.
Love this video! I was actually waiting for you to make this. I've been playing Keyforge since release date. Only bought one deck and has stuck to it ever since.
If you don’t want to buy tokens, there’s an app on IOS called ÆmberTracker that keeps track of the tokens for you. It doesn’t replace status cards or life tokens for creatures though.
Ive picked up a couple of decks and love the game. It very much reminds me of something richard garfield said about his intentions when first designing mtg. It was meant as a fun, casual game that he and his friends could play as a break in between long dnd sessions. Now obviously the game exploded in popularity and has evolved since then but keyforge seems very reminiscent of that sentiment. My friends and I typically play keyforge when we want to take a break from magic after a couple of commander games during game night, or as an alternative to a board game. Just hand out whatever decks we collectively brought with us and play. All in all a fantastic new product i am excited to see what direction it takes next
I've really enjoyed my few plays of Keyforge. We have a few MTG players here in my town that have tried the game and enjoyed it. We are planning a little mini tournament/game day once stock is back in at the store. One of the really cool things I found in the game in relation to Magic is the flavour text. There is actually quite a bit of it that makes reference to Magic cards or flavour!
Deck building is one of my favorite past times. I've built so many theoretical decks and practical decks that I never have time to play all of them. All my regular magic friends have started playing Keyforge and have told me to pick up a deck to play with them, but I've been distant with the game because of the lack of deck building. There's a kind of calming zen like state of being when you are looking through cards, looking for cards, researching, play testing, and tuning a deck to meet the idea you have; be that idea a fun casual deck that doesn't worry about winning but concerns itself with making an engaging and dynamic session at the card table with your friends , decks built with new players in mind to get them excited about playing, or a deck fine tuned so you can "bring the spike" to the table. After this video though, I might buy a deck of Keyforge. Maybe.
Regarding competitive play, check out the four different formats and the newly updated tournament chain system. I think these will be really interesting for competitive play.
Really enjoy KF for the kitchen-table aspects, and will likely pick up a few more decks just for variety with my family. I agree though, as a competitive game, it feels like there's a lot of unneccesary hurdles to get over to 'force' a balanced playing field. I'd much rather just have a group of similarly powered decks to choose from, rather than try to pick a deck to deal with a 'meta' that's developed around a rare combo or set of houses. Much like Epic, most of the cards are *really* powerful, but also really situational, so you get a lot of swings in a game that depend on you having the right board state at the right time (but can also lead to a very one-sided game). Overall, since the buy-in is very low (comparatively), and the spike scene is probably not going to be sustainable, I hope to see KF be a more casual (but still take-that) game that can exist beside MtG.
I'm lean more on the end of thinking the starter box is great. I feel a lot more confident when teaching someone how to play that the matchup will feel better with the starter decks.
I am very intrigued to try this game out and would definitely give it a chance. I also believe that not being able to build a deck is necessary for the game to thrive and be enjoyable. We would quickly run into the same problems the MTG deals with and would have to immediately try and correct course to stray away from it. While we cant make our decks, the fact they are ready to play out of the box and randomized to begin with is great and will really test skill and knowledge of the rules.
I think the card named 'the sting', is a very powerful card Artifact of shadows, give you 1 Anber when cast. Skip your 'forge a key step', you get all the Anber your opponent uses to forge a key. Action: destroy 'the sting'
have a starter set, played against a friend a few times; it's a decent game, though the strategy is not as strong as a game like MtG; one thing that I think is a big plus for newer players is that there is no way to play a card during your opponent's turn, so like no counterspells to have to strategize around, or worrying about attacking into a Settle the Wreckage
Still, one of the things I love about card games is building a deck and selecting your strategy, that you get to look back in awe when your Deck is working really well and you feel proud to have built it yourself. However, in Keyforge, you don’t get that, you may get excited if your Deck does well in a game regardless, but it’s not going to feel as good. I personally love playing against my friends to see what ideas they come up with for decks, so even if you lose, you still get to feel good about what you did do. However, my main complaint with Keyforge isn’t necessarily the game itself, it’s the community, the people I played with have been quite unfriendly and the person who got me to play with them for the first time was winning by a lot, which as most know can be stressful, they were laughing at me throughout the game and made me feel dumb and that I was nothing. Then when they asked me what I thought about the game it felt like something intended to mock me, instead of just seeing what I thought of it.
I probably would have mentioned the chain system when speaking about alternatives to mana, to emphasize that there were other resources you can expense to have access to more powerful card
This game is awesome!! Me and my friend both started playing it at our game store before it was even released. I find my favorite format is sealed but there are a ton of formats I could see being competitive. One thing we’ve done is take a couple decks that we weren’t using, made sure that there were an even about of each house and Winston drafting with it! It’s been a ton of fun and I might like it better then sealed!! I really like drafting in magic and I have a cube but I find we don’t draft it as much now. We play a lot of keyforge nowXD
Transformers (made by WotC) is prob the BEST card game I've ever played and I've been a loyal MTG tourney player for a decade and a half. Keyforge sufers the same prob as MTG--Mana screw. In KeyForge, your opponent can get lucky and draw cards all from the same house while you are stuck being able to play 1-2 cards and they endlessly play their hands, redraw, do it again. Plus the fantasy thing is REALLY played out at this point.
A few notes: I really enjoyed this video. I wasn't a huge fan of the game, but I understood it's appeal. Somethings you missed were how the game does have some REALLY weird interactions and rules. While not common, certain cards have some really weird gameplay reactions. These include cards like "Biomatrix Backup", "Restringus" and things like "Chains". If you haven't seen what I mean about the two listed cards, check the most recent rulebook update (v7) for more info. Keyforge, despite it's design, does suffer from the very thing Garfield didn't want. A great example is there are special cards in some decks that only show up when another card does. The Horsemen of the Apocalypse each have a card, and where one is found so are the other 3. Some decks have had two copies of each. Initially one of those decks sold for 2000 dollars. While the market has somewhat stabilzed, those decks are still in an expensive range (200 range for double, 20-100 for single horseman copies). And there are other cards that also boost or decrease a deck's value, such as Mavericks. This idea of people dropping a ton of money on a deck that retails for 9.99 msrp leaves a very magicky taste no? Small side note: Names are procedurally generated, but houses actually have a very small influence on names. Mars decks usually get "Abductor" or "Probe" in the names, and I haven't yet seen a deck without mars with those names (I could be wrong, but at the minimum, the names are more common from the house) Overall, I feel as a brief introduction, you've created an excellent video, but the game itself has some glaring issues that do need be addressed by the creators, and I feel it's important to let new people know about such things to help better shape their view.
Nice video! Regarding your concerns about "spikes" cracking decks to find the good ones, it's worth noting that the two most popular formats for the game (Sealed and Archon) avoid this problem in effective ways. Sealed, of course, means you don't bring a deck at all, so you just crack your deck on the spot and play it - no chasing involved. The Archon format sees players bring their best decks and play a Best of 3, with the twist that players swap decks after game 1. If neither player has 2 wins after the second game, they bid chains (the handicap mechanic) to see who is willing to take the biggest handicap to play with the deck that won the most in the previous two games, so if you want the "better" deck during the tiebreaker, you'll have to put yourself at a disadvantage. It's a pretty brilliant system, IMO, and means that just because you have the best deck doesn't mean you're going to win every tournament, since your opponent will have a chance to play with the deck as well.
That's very interesting. Probably should have been mentioned in the video. A very cool idea that can be used what's other games as well, I suppose. Thanks for posting this.
I've been playing KeyForge since August. I love it. I wish you would have highlighted the appeal of KeyForge: becoming skilled with your unique deck. Focusing on not-building decks is going to turn away people who don't know this. 12:00 KeyForge does have official Organized Play from Fantasy Flight Games, and there will be a World Championship. 6:20 The names of the decks are actually generated by the contents of the deck.
Hey, I'm very new here and just picking Magic up again (last played several years ago in school). Played the videogame "Faeria" for a long time. It is a Card Game where your mana is also building the playing field and the monsters are placed on it. So it becomes a hybrid between turned base strategy games and card games. Really enjoyed it. Ever heard of it ?
My wife and I tried two decks that a store got as a demo before the game was released. However, she wasn't very sold on it and thought it was a pain to play a game of "I hope I have some good strategy this turn." Whereas I kind of saw it more in a BattleCon or Streetfighter sort of light and saw a deck to be mastered and like a character of its own. Either way, I have not been able to get her to try it again and I don't have any local people in playing it. I would like to have a set of like 6 decks and just call it a day with that and find out a good balance between them all for a fun casual night with a few people though. We are sticking with something like 60 card singleton, or 100 card highlander style games of MTG but our card pool is so limited it feels like personally, it would be better to have some premade content to pull out and have fun playing rather than spending time chasing down cards and building...
Why not offer add-on packs for individual decks? Especially if they are printing these so randomly generated as is. But the idea is a nice one, to have everything you need to play for $10. And it will always be varied matches with all the “diversity”.
I love Keyforge and i am really glad someone took the risk to produce it. For the many concerns i read around here i can say: 1- balancing is possible with chains, i have had many onesided matches that have been brought to a single amber of difference using the right amount of chains (this can be easily done by switching decks with your opponent and then betting on chains); 2-the sustainability is already there since until now Keyforge pulled some crazy selling numbers, so they are going to invest in it and at least we are going to see a cycle from FFG, it means a span of 5-10 years (nothing is ever going to be like Magic anymore); 3- the fun factor can be ruined mostly by yourself, i have played Magic for a long time and stopped when saw the tendency of printing ''powercreep'', so i approached this game with an open mind to just flow with the fun of it, on the other hand a friend of mine already started going nuts on what is good and what is bad, submitting ADHD (consistency tests that you can make) on every deck we have and you can clearly see it is affecting his enjoyment of the game. To conclude as a TLDR : the game has a working balance system, they are going to support it for quite some time and the only one that can ruin the fun of it is yourself. Buy Keyforge to learn once again to enjoy your childish nature, this are my 2 cents.
I’m probably going to try it. I like the idea of reliving high school tcgs where we all have are cobbled together decks. There’s something fun about that casual gameplay. But I don’t like that I can’t build my own deck. That’s sort of the point of a trading card game. I’ll still give it a try
I actually don’t play card games that I can’t do customizations on. If it’s a board game where players have decks, that’s a different story. But an actual tcg with no customization just feels bad imo.
It sounds bad at first but I decided to check it out and I'm hooked man. Just try getting like 1 or 2 decks, they're only $10 a deck so if you don't care for it then it's not a huge loss.
Drake Deriemaeker it’s not a cost issue. I’m a brewer. I love making decks to play, not just playing. I love doing crazy things and if the game is the same every time cause I can’t customize my list, I don’t think it’ll be worth it. That being said, if every single deck is literally random, there isn’t a finite number (like 20) decks and you can find a fun one, then it might be okay.
@@Alvikus That's precisely what i said to my friend who suggested i'd buy a deck. Yes, you can't customize, but the entire approach is different - instead of bending the deck to your will, you learn its combos and interactions and bend your strategy to the deck. It's extremely refreshing.
I think the format where you play the first game with your own deck then you switch decks and if it's a tie you bet on the winning deck is super cool and could be a great competitive format. It would even be worth it to try this in magic.
As someone who just brewed 4c aristocrats in Arena, all the while thinking "this will probably be terrible," I'm not a fan of no deck-building. It's one of my favorite things about MTG. However, I watched the LRR stream where they played this, and the gameplay itself seems cool.
It's great to see Keyforge picking up in popularity. I'm quite surprised that already half a million decks have been opened and registered on their database, so it's clearly gaining some steam. I was happy to hear it namedropped on Limited Resources and happy to see a video for it here. As a casual game, it's quite nice. Considering how often you advocate for battle boxes, I'm surprised you didn't make the analogy that your Keyforge collection is essentially an ever-growing battle box of sealed decks! In Magic, when we're done with a draft or sealed game, we go home, pick our deck clean of value, and stow the draft chaff in a BCW 5000 never to be seen again. I appreciate how there's a lot less "waste" with this game. But in terms of gameplay, I've been underwhelmed. The mana system of Magic gives the game a tempo that I've found to be the most satisfying part of the game, from the resource constrained first three land drops, to the point where players are out of cards and trying to get that last bit of reach. Keyforge is swingy and flashy, where big plays are the norm and "who's the beatdown" is always in flux. That being said, the biggest challenge facing Keyforge (and any new card game on the block) is that it lacks organized play with the ubiquity of FNM. Part of what you get for buying into the game of Magic is the ability to walk into just about any LGS on a Friday evening and play a game you know well with people you've never met. It's risky for LGSs to invest in the next fad, so if players want to convince their store to stock the product and hold the events, they need to be the ones to pick up the legwork and do education, outreach, and advocacy.
Hey folks, the 'Learn How To Play' video will need to be posted after this weekend. Sorry for the few days of delays but prerelease got in the way.
I could not go to pree relase :(
Maby next time.
Hope you had fun!
I personally quit Pauper in lieu of Keyforge. I had a Pauper Gauntlet of sorts to play with relatives that came over for pick-up games, but Keyforge is just way more interesting, easy to learn, balanced, and cheaper. Also, it's a nice change of pace.
PS. Anyone want to buy some Pauper decks?
how dare you enjoy playing magic the gathering at your local game store! alas I understand and I guess I will just have to be patient for the next video, if only there were something going on this weekend to occupy my time :p
Thanks Prof for mentioning Keyforge. LOL My first deck I opened was called Professor J Chronocode a deck best described as an aristrocratian auric ''hasty''ready themed deck:P
Something something Time Spiral joke.
An "is it worth it to buy" video is always worth it. Keep it up
Putting an 'n' on the end of 'an' is always worth it. Give it a shot.
I work at my LGS in London. Myself and a colleague were extremely interested at first because Garfield games are usually well made. We got the prerelease sets with a few decks and learned to play and were hooked for the same reasons you were. Our hype and energy spread to our regulars and we had 8-10 people almost every week to play the game in a variety of formats. I don't think we ran the same style of tournament more than once. However, by December, the hype had died. A lot of us all owned 5+ decks, and we had played enough games that we all understood how those decks worked and played against each other. I think a lot of the reason why so many of us were into it at first was because the feeling of learning something new gives you a bit of an adrenaline rush, like a sort of gratification. Once there was nothing to learn without buying new decks, it was tough to keep going, because the amount of time and effort needed to strategize and learn how to utilise a new deck decreased with each one you buy. So the gratification per deck decreased. A few of us mass bought a few displays just to keep us overwhelmed, but even that rush wore off very quickly. The week before Christmas we finally had a zero attendance tournament.
A big factor was that there was no actual Organized Play system in place. We gave out store credit, and other things where we could. Fantasy Flight even sent us a big chart/poster where we could track the winning houses of each weekly tournament, but when we asked them for the House-specific promo sets to give out, we were told "we don't know anything about that, there's nothing else to give". So there was even less reason to play because there was no more reward for playing the game itself, and there was nothing to play for in a physical sense.
I still think the game is very well designed, but the issue with Magic is that it's a game that has now come to be built around being optimised. Keyforge is impossible to optimise for this reason. However, a lot of us in the store quickly went and learned all the cards in existence and figured out what was good and what was bad; what to look for when you opened a new deck. As a result of that, there was literally no more "learn how this works and have fun discovering new stuff". So in a way, you were absolutely correct about having the fun sucked out of it. Is that an issue with the attitude of us as Magic players? Perhaps. But I also feel that the card pool is extremely limited; when you open a deck, you already have an idea of what gets procedurally added, what patterns to look out for, etc.
It's also been two months and there's been no news of an actual Organised Play network or new cards/new decks/whatever. I still enjoy playing the game, because in Magic, I am a combo player who likes to spend 15 minutes building a rube goldberg machine in my head and figuring out exactly how this combo is going to happen. It's why I also enjoy Vanguard and Weiss Schwarz, because those games are all about planning and sequencing. Keyforge rewards these skills greatly, but the issue is that nobody has a drive to play it anymore because the game was a bit too easy to solve for us.
I still have faith, but a lot needs to be done to keep the game sustained.
This is the longest comment I've ever seen.
Interesting feedback, thanks !
@@yawgmoththeineffable8660 You don't read a lot of youtube comments, apparently.
aequusReliquary
Very cool comment. I haven’t played the game with another person before but from the videos I’ve seen so far the biggest thing working against tournament play and more fun in general is the randomly generated decks where the cards can synergies heavily or just be a deck or randomly thrown together cards. Although it’s the core of the game, I think that is also the game biggest flaw as knowing what every card does doesn’t help when you can’t make your own deck where you can try something wacky or synergistic as you’re basically forced to get new decks after a while as you just now what your deck does without a way to interact with it, like removing a oppressive card in your deck to create a more fun deck to play for nigh players. A big help would also be a tool to create a random deck via a website where you put in 3 houses and get a random name and a list of cards to put in the deck (this could also work by sleeving the cards and having restrictions on what cards can be in your deck for example). This way the player has to look trough his cards to build the deck, which in return increases the time the player spends with the game itself as you could look at a card and be like “Hey, this seems fun, let’s try it” or be like “This could be a cool synergy/combo”. This way there are new and interesting decks to play against.
Have you tried playing Android: Netrunner? I found it to be a ton of fun due to figuring out the sequencing of everything.
I absolutely love Keyforge. My main game is still Magic but it is suuuuper nice having a game where you don't need to spend hundreds of dollars to be competitive.
The gameplay is really fun and the strategy is great. I highly recommend it for any Magic players who have felt kinda burned out by the staleness of Modern or Standard.
Plus even if you don't end up liking it, it only cost you 10 bucks.
I agree. At least for now, Keyforge will almost entirely replace Magic for my kitchen table and Magic will only get played competitively at events. I'm still keeping all my Magic cards and will play it from time to time. You can buy a big library of Keyforge decks (I'm aiming for one of each of the 35 possible 3-house combinations) for less than the cost of a single competitive Magic deck and that appeals to me very much. Also, Keyforge does have a secondary market. You just trade whole decks instead of singles.
KeyForge is the best card game I have ever played. I played Magic for over a decade 10-60 hours a week depending on the time in my life. I have played magic twice in the last two months now. I never would have expected this before the game came out
You're probably just feeling the same as you did when you started playing magic. Make a cube, or just draft. These are the best ways to enjoy magic in terms of having fun. Every person at the table has the same chance, and it all comes down to skill and, true, bit of luck, but you can't say that luck isn't a part of a game where every deck is random.
How is this comment holding up a year later, if you don't mind me asking. Avid MTG grinder, and just getting in to Keyforge.
@SnappyJon and @cody centers over a year later and I still feel the same way. Any time I go back and play magic I feel like I'm playing an extremely outdated game and within a few games decide "well that was enough of that". In keyforge there is a lot more interaction and less rng so when I win it feels better and when I lose it is less frustrating. My one critique is that the only online client is not official and is run by fans and while they do a great job, the game could use an official online client (especially during the pandemic). Before the pandemic I drove to every vault tour (like a gp) that was within 20 hours of driving from central texas and few to a few other ones. I even flew to New York to play in the albany vault tour instead of playing in the modern gp (my favorite mtg format) that was in Austin (the city I live in). While I am looking forward to the day I can get back to going to as many vault tours as I can, I am currently enjoying a bunch of online leagues run by various communities in the mean time :)
Edit: forgot to respond to the decks question. While I have plenty of competitive and engaging decks from each set, I still buy more every once in a while because I want to (and to support my LGS during the pandemic).
Started playing a month ago, fell in love with my decks and learned to use them properly. Are there imbalances? yes. Can you overcome a powerful deck if you play well? yes. There are always counter - options, the game feels fresh, you have a lot of choices to make each turn and 1vs1 games are not a curb stomp against netdecks.
I highly suggest anyone who loves MTG to give this game a good try.
Great video as always Professor, my brother and I have been out of MTG for a while but this concept sounds very interesting. Think I might pick up some decks and give it a shot, thank you!
Super fun, and super low cost to try it out. $20 and you have all you need!
As an ex / now very casual MTG player, I love this game. Not a money pit, and just very fun. The awesome thing is, as you learn your deck, the game just gets deeper. I got a deck at pre-release, thought it was awful, then gradually learnt to play the deck and the process has been very fun. It does reflect those early days of MTG where you just mashed together whatever cards you had.
I also love that I don't spend hours on meta and deck construction research. Just sit down and play. I can't recommend it enough as a former MtG player.
Funny seeing you here 🤔
holy sheet I used to watch your warframe tutorials lol
Titanflayer, the Farmer of Racism is now the nickname I'll use in Twitter like, forever.
I just wonder....is he someone who is racist and so flays and farms titans....or are titans by nature racists....
@@TheTrueLeafless I think is a Farmer Who is tired of those Titans stealing his cabbages and lefting racists messages on the walls of his barn.
@@elviejopotter Nah, I think he's literally growing racists, pulling KKK members out of the ground when they're ripe.
I loled hard when I saw that one, omg...
My guess is that particular deck is worth a ton compared to others.
I was highly sceptical of keyforge when I first had it described to me, it sounded like the gameplay of a deck building game without the fun of building your deck. Then when I played it I was glad to see I was wrong, It's a fun game that lets you feel very powerful as you play and no matter how far behind I looked on the board it always felt possible to come back. I would recommend it though as you said the markup on the starter is a bit sad and I'd maybe have a look for some nicer alternative tokens if you really fancy dropping £20 on them.
Dream146 It’s about barriers to entry. Building a deck may certainly be fun for some, but many, especially those who aren’t CCG veterans, may get overwhelmed or intimidated with trying to juggle the thousands of cards you could potentially use in your deck, not to mention having to cough up oodles of cash for boosters and singles to actually make said deck. Keyforge’s premade decks are intended to get around that issue to lower the barriers to entry and make the game more interesting and accessible to newbies.
One thing is worth mentioning here - MtG is NOT a deck-building game. Well, KeyForge is not one of such either, so it clearly means that KF is actually not taking anything away from MtG. Deck-bulilding as a term is one of the in-game mechanics that makes/forces/encourages players to create their own decks during the game (take Dominion, Aeon's End for instance). So in case of MtG/KF you could rather say that these are deck-depleting games. Nevertheless, both are great games in their own way. I am not a Magic fan at all, mostly because I've never played it, although I do have an idea what is it all about. It's been with us for almost 30 years now so people simply do not want to give up upon it, also because of the trading aspect so that they can earn a penny or two by selling their 'M' cards.
Would love to see Keyforge content more often! Always great to have a cost-effective secondary game to get into.
Adaptive format is the best way to play. After round 1, players exchange decks, and if it goes to the third round, players must bid chains to play with the winning deck. Best of 3 wins the match up
This, so much this!
I like the idea of Triad. It adds a level of customization similar to Beyblade where you bring 3 decks to play with. One gets benched by your opponent, switch decks for game 2, then use whichever deck you won with if it goes to game 3.
EDIT: I described that wrong. You only switch to your other deck if you win with the first; therefore you have to win with both decks to win the round.
blunted333 it’s one of the more common formats if you’d like a more balanced experience.
Interesting review. I need to mention that the low potential for competitive games is not necessarily bad. It's good that the review talks about it, but just keep in mind that a game doesn't need to succeed at both casual and competitive gameplay to be a good game. Of course, many games try to do so, some succeed, but also several fail at both because they don't focus enough on either. If the game succeeds at either playstyle, I think it's still a success.
Transformers, from WotC, has no organized play. But it's raking in cash and people love it. KeyForge does have official Organized Play from Fantasy Flight Games, and there will be a World Championship.
I’m actually really enjoying the competitive scene because it avoids the issue a lot of other competitive cars games have and that is often those who win competitive are often those who simply have the most money to spend on the game. With this not so much because there’s no market for singles. People can go through tons of decks looking for special combos but they’re never going to get a perfect game breaking one and as a result theres almost no meta. So I’ll never show up to a tournament of say 30 people 20 of which are all playing the same deck as happens in other card games all the time.
I've already taught it to at least a few kids in the high school Magic club I advise and each one had loved it! There were some habits from Magic to overcome (untapping/readying at the end instead of at the start of the turn, drawing up to a full hand at the end and NOT drawing at the beginning), but they've enjoyed it. In general, I've haven't really had an unfun game; every game has been just as unique as the decks.
Awesome that you took a look at this game Prof! I'm a heavy tabletop/boardgame gamer and this has certainly been one of the bigger releases recently!
Personally, I thought the game is great as a casual card game. So it's best enjoyed as sort of a battle box collection of decks. It's closest comparison to MTG of course is in limited, and pricing wise, it falls between that weird space of being more slightly more expensive than draft (3 packs) and way more cheaper than sealed (6 packs). Also there are no chaff cards in the end.
Gameplay wise, I think given the random nature of decks, there are still too many "non-games" where your deck just doesn't match up very well against another. Richard Garfield brought back a lot of the "hate" and "enemy" concepts of early MTG in the game, and you can get really blown out by a "hate" card that works well against your strategy. I also find gameplay to be quite grindy, as board states can get much more complex than MTG, but not necessarily more enjoyable. But perhaps my lack of familiarity with the deeper nuances of the game's strategies is also factoring in here.
Lastly, the publisher Fantasy Flight Games, does not have the best track record in keeping CCGs alive over time. They have 1 or 2 that lasted more than 5 years, but mostly they kill their card games in as little as over 2 years for a variety of reasons. Quite a bummer for those who are looking for some longevity in their CCGs.
Overall, I will be happy to invest in a couple of decks, and might visit a couple of "sealed" tournaments just to open a bunch of new decks and play with friends in a level playing field. I'm excited to see where they take the concept of the "unique deck" and Keyforge in the future.
Keep up the good work Prof! And more non-MTG content like this is always welcome. Big fan of yours here from the Philippines!
The thing I love about Magic is being able to make my own crazy deck. This seems like a cool "board game" more than anything else.
To counteract people using unbeatable decks or getting tired of your decks, one of my local stores is running "Feeble Deck Bash" tournaments. You bring in your weakest deck, and you and your opponent exchange decks so you play against your own deck. Going to attend my first one of these soon, as it sounds like fun.
Keyforge is my first card game. I love that I am competitive for 10 bucks.
I agree totally mtg always seemed too daunting to get into based on the deck building and secondary market for singles and such. I played pokemon and yugioh when I was younger but keyforge really felt well rounded enough to get into. Been playing for a couple months now and it quickly became and addiction lol.
Chris Fink I mean, all you really need is a playgroup that’s non-competitive...
@@The_Murder_Party if you read my comment I mention the secondary market and the price for singles. I'm well aware I could play with less competitive people and shitty cards but that's stupid. Keyforge gives you a COMPLETE experience for 10 dollars. I've purchased close to 100 KF decks and maybe only pulled 5 or 6 decks that I really dont likem. Which is why I consider it a more well rounded experience all together.
@@shplangerz9886 jesus chirst money is an issue for magic but you're fine with dropping a grand on keyforge? It's only been available for a couple of months.
@@clone256 retail is for suckers.
I love your videos, prof. When I’m feeling down or bored, watching your videos not only informs me but brightens up my mood. Keep up the good work!
I absolutely adore Keyforge!
Please, more keyforge content.
The thing is, I actually gave up Magic about 2 years ago. Not because I wanted to, but because I simply couldn't afford it. I was and still am extremely poor and was crushed that I can't play and have fun because I don't have the money. Truth be told, I do love MTG, but I only fell in love with it because it was a strategic game that people consistently played. I'm loyal to that experience; not planeswalkers.
In my opinion, Keyforge absolutely fixes everything I hated about magic. I understand that people only see it as a casual addition to the card playing environment. However, I have completely converted over. Watching you and LLR are the only ways I interact with MTG anymore.
I would love the occasional video about Keyforge. Especially a video about deck boxes, sleeves and tokens that are compatible. The cards are standard size, but the deck size is smaller than most games. Dropping mana really trims the fat. An investigation into containers that work well would be exceedingly appreciated. Even if it was just a rapid fire of products you've already reviewed. You have the expertise and the collection to save people hundreds of hours of trial and error. Who knows, maybe old failures could become new gems.
Draft, Cube and Pauper are for you, my friend. If you haven't got other buddies to play formats that aren't so common head on to mtg arena, where you can get started for free against people of varying skill levels
@@jake_russ No thanks,. I've had problems with all three. And I'm not interested in playing online. Face to face is the reason I play. Maybe one day. But I'm all about Keyforge now.
Tory Evans If you have a printer you can always print proxies. Your cards can even be black and white if you want. Then just glue the paper that is shaped like a Magic card and then glue them to a basic land, or just put it in a card sleeve.
@@casperockley9244 Sorry but that's part of the problem. I shouldn't have to print up certain cards just to play. Now I'm just chasing the meta and I'm doing it in a completely non-competitive way. I shouldn't have to do all this work just to play.
With Keyforge I just get to play. I don't have to research what cards are good in draft ahead of time. I don't have to pray I get a shark land. I don't get told I'm using the wrong cards. I just get to play. Keyforge is an immensely freeing game. Printing proxy cards just feels like shackles. Thank you but no thank you.
Tory Evans sounds like duel decks might be for you. The real question then, of course, is if you can find someone else to play with.
Have you considered a Challenger deck precon? Challenger/EDH format inherently balances out power levels between people playing with Legacy or even Vintage power levels and those playing the simple precons.
I've played magic since 1994 and nothing has ever brought back the pure joy and excitement that early MTG play had like Keyforge, it's an absolute blast. Highly recommend it.
I believe I’ve had the opposite experience as the average tcg player since Keyforge was my first tcg game i bought. I was hooked after i bought my first starter kit and started buying more and more decks not even to be competitive but to have a balanced collection between all houses and play styles. Funny thing is Keyforge actually led me to trying magic via arena and I just recently bought my very first physical magic products in a planeswalker deck and booster bundle.
I love cards games and I have played a lot of them :
Although Keyforge is a good game for beginners I don't recommend it for a veteran player.
While the gameplay removes the mana screw, it adds another screw: the house screw. If you can play near all your cards versus only two is a big deal at the start of the game (and same things in the later turns if you want to activate a house but has none of it in your hand). It's the luck of the draw...
Deckbuilding (in magic or in any games), while making a deck more powerful has the primary objective to make the deck more consistent.
You can't do that in keyforge. and an inconsistent deck makes you at the mercy of luck and remove a lot of tactical planning during the game.
But many magic the gathering players already know what playing keyforge feels like: if they ever once played with a pre-constructed deck against another preconstructed deck it's the same feeling. (add it the fact you don't know what pre-constructed deck you bought).
Over the holidays while my friend was visiting he introduced me to Keyforge and we played a few games. My first 3 games almost every hand I had a 2-2-1 house split almost consistently throughout the game.
At least in magic I know I'll get mana screwed so I can build my deck (in commander) in such a way that I can almost ensure I will be able to do something.
I’ve been a long time fan of MTG, my dad even longer. We both really enjoyed keyforge, mostly because we are both not interested in buying thousands of mtg cards anymore and mostly just play with precons against each other. Keyforge provides a way better casual experience than even WotC precons. Keyforge would really REALLY benefit from some multiplayer rulesets (like two headed giant or 3v3 variants). Another thing about keyforge that I love is that every turn is chock full of choices and your plan can go lots of directions at the beginning of your turn. Keyforge decks don’t suffer from “playing themselves” like some magic decks can.
I completely agree with your take on it. I don't feel it's great for competitive play and is not a replacement for magic for me but is a good substitute if I'm with friends and feel like playing something different
To this day I'm still unsure about his degree and if this is a legit educational institution...
He has a degree of justice and is a professor with phasing
He said he is an English Major.
@@justininexile3445 he was making a joke.
Don't forget if you accumulate enough chains (win tournaments) the busted deck will ascend and be banned competitively and be marked as such in the official app.
That's kinda' funny actually.
@@minihali
I hope they make an ascended format where all the most broken decks live😂
Now THIS is innovation. Imagine being that guy with 5 banned decks and just owning everyone in the banned format, so your deck has to be banned again
@@minihali
What you haven't heard of the new format triple-ascended!
to be clear. in store tournaments are ,,chain bound" where all of the in app balancing takes place. when a deck rraches certain point (by winning of course) is banned from chain bound events (still its VERY HARD TO DO) but above store ranked events are called ,,unbound" where players can use their stronghest decks to play. they designed it that way to prevent single decks to dominate local metas.
I think Force of Will had the best solution to resource bases in card games by putting your "mana base" into it's own deck.
My friends and I all chipped in to get the starter set and 4 extra decks. we just keep them sleeved up and in the starter box and use it as a board game honestly. One of the main reasons we love Magic is the deck building aspect.
Keyforge is my new addiction. Haven't touched MTG since it was released.
I feel like Keyforge is perfect for us who like casual Magic. Its a low entry fee with little previous card playing experience needed, which also makes it a good gateway game to get into Magic. I also like the original concept that you are supposed to buy one deck & learn how it works inside & out rather than contently buying new decks. I don't think that last part will stick, but it was a nice gesture.
It stops becoming a low entry fee when you realize that the deck you just bought sucks. Then you buy another one, only to find out that one sucks. I think this will end up being more expensive in the end.
I haven't gotten any decks yet but I've been following the game since November. Honestly because I'm such a sentimental person, and like the idea of buying a deck and learning it's ins and outs without changing it. I look forward to trying the game out as a fun casual pastime or at least a short lived fun experience.
Quick note for double sleeving: KMC Perfect Fits + Dragon Shield Sleeves are a pretty tight fit. The Keyforge cards are slightly larger than MTG cards, and it may reduce the effectiveness of double sleeving.
Thanks for sharing something from another gaming community! It's always good to see how other games are doing. My Commander group has mixed feelings about the game. I love it, and one of my groups members does too, but another one hates it because he wouldn't have any control over his deck.
Keyforge cards are slightly taller than MTG cards, and I've heard not all sleeves fit precisely. So if you feel like doing more videos on Keyforge, Professor, sleeves would be a helpful topic.
Speaking of card games that need advice on sleeving, have you heard of Transformers? It has doublesided oversized character cards, which need different types of sleeves, and WotC keeps coming up with new surprises. Fans of the game are a bit troubled as to which sleeves to use. I know you prefer talking about MTG, but I feel Transformers is a game where players could really use some advice from you, Professor.
My local shop has been hosting keyforge events since release, we've been doing sealed events (buy a deck and that's your entry fee and deck you use) and everyone has enjoyed this because it feels balanced especially in a low income area where not everyone can afford a competitive magic deck. Also, given the fact that Fantasy Flight provides the prize support it really has been a successful game. Overall, for the competitive scene I completely agree, but in a local shop environment, this game is amazing and the community is amazing.
Got out of all CCGs about 10 years ago. Love Keyforge! Great game! :)
My family came to Keyforge from Pokemon TCG. The learning curve was a little steep, but now my wife and daughter are hooked. I did not buy the starter set but put all money towards buying decks. I made amber out of small wooden cubes from dollar store then coloured them orange and repurposed pokemon dice damage counters to use for shield (blue dice) , and power bonus (red dice).
I absolutely love Keyforge. I'm game store owner and its very cool to see this game find an audience with all ages especially middle school kids. We have a teacher that is a regular of the shop and at lunch time he plays Keyforge with his students. I've also have seen this game bring families to the gaming table as well. Makes me feel like i'm providing a valuable service instead of just making sales. Another thing I like about keyforge compared to Magic is I think the Magic community gets too caught up in competitive play instead of having fun. Games are made to be fun and Keyforge delivers.
For me, deck building is one of the most exciting parts of magic. I get a rush of energy and excitement when all the cool cards I have are coming together in cool ways (the other half of the fun comes from doing the cool stuff in game, of course). That element being absent also means I'm gambling on whether or not I enjoy the playstyle my deck does best, and so on. I may give it a try, but my expectations are set accordingly.
As someone who is terrible at deck-building, I'll admit the idea of a pre-con deck that is competitive with/ doesn't have to compete with custom decks is quite appealing.
I'm so happy that my lgs sold me their last starter for msrp and didn't mark it up like a lot would have.
My wife and I bought the starter box; it is worth the money. The game is competitive, interesting, and fun. We loved not worrying about mana, and it’s nice not having to worry about a collection. The decks are already ready.
Small update for new watchers, you can now build decks by combing various houses from 2-3 decks
Thanks for making this video, Prof! My friends and I recently got into Keyforge and I use it as a break from playing Magic as well. I actually just won a tournament the other night!
Your comments on the competitive nature of the game are spot on. The tournament I won, and the format I find enjoyable is sealed. The other events I've been to were riddled with deck sharks carrying insanely powerful decks. If nothing changes, then I feel like outside of sealed, the tournament scene will have a lot of balance issues.
But again, I appreciate the spotlight you've given to this exciting new game.
I liked a lot of the mechanics in Keyforge. One downside if there is a few cards in the deck you opened you hate there is no way to remove them other than buying a new deck.
I work at an LGS and we sold out of the starter sets and decks within a week... that was over a month ago. Players are growing frustrated with me even when I inform them that our distributer has it on back order.
I haven't played Keyforge yet, but I really like the concept of this game as a MTG player. Taking out the deckbuilding aspect of the game will help bring a broader audience to the table to have a more casual, fun match. But it also would help people focus on timing and execution of cards during their turns, which would be a good tool for people to learn better for MTG as well.
I've gotten into Keyforge, and I like it a lot. Not being able to construct decks is less of a downside for me than expected. I like how I now have unmutable, unique decks that live online and gain a history - and possible chains once it's shown the deck is too good.
That is a part that was missing from the review. Yes, Spikes will try to find better decks, but the balance will be maintained due to the chain system. If a deck does too well, basically it's pilot will draw less and less cards, until they are on par again with the meta.
I’ve been playing non-stop since getting my hands on a few of the almost always sold out decks. Everyone I teach the game to immediately buys in. The low cost of entry and easy to teach gameplay make it perfect for growing a small community in no time. It’s currently my primary game but again that low cost of entry makes it a perfect side game.
This video made me really want to get this game. Having completely different games every time is amazing.
I enjoy putting together decks myself based on a theme of my choice, which is something Keyforge can't offer me.
I think the game is oriented more towards people new to CCGs, who may be overwhelmed and intimidated by the idea of having to juggle the thousands of cards you could potentially use, or not have the deep pockets to buy the boosters and singles needed to actually make the deck. Keyforge with its premade deck tries to get around that, lower the barriers to entry, and make the game more accessible and interesting to newcomers.
The way cards have no cost is really interesting to me as a Yugioh player, used to being able to play basically any card for free. If my ONE (1) local hobby store stocks it i'll be sure to check it out.
It's always nice to see a game attempt to fix the mana problems inherent to MTG. Another solution I really liked came from Duel Masters. In that game you get to play any card as a land. This means you always have enough mana and it leaves you with intresting choices: which do I play, and which do I play as lands? too bad the game's dead in the west though
And Richard Garfield saves game design again.
In all seriousness, I see Garfield as the Nintendo of traditional games. For example, with his work on Solforge, it truly did take advantage of the digital format. Wasn't the greatest game, but the point was that it was innovative. And now, a desire to return to the core that is part of why I love sealed and old magic? Nice.
I like Keyforge, I find that when I am waiting to play a game of MTG Commander I'll play a quick game of Keyforge. I love how simple it seems at first but than the deeper strategies begin to emerge after a few games with your unique deck. The thing I find most interesting though, despite the randomness, is that each deck I have played with or against can win, like most games I've played both players have forged 2 keys and have basically went through their decks. I've not had such close games in MTG in years. LOL The only problem I have with Keyforge is that it reminds me of the things I hate in MTG: drawing a land, not drawing a land, having 60 cards and rarely seeing all the cards in the deck, always buying new cards, deck building becomes a chore, even playing the game with all the rulings becomes a chore and just knowing that no matter what some decks will always beat you UNLESS you use these key cards in standard right now. My most ''weakest'' keyforge decks can still win with or without bidding chains, my weakest MTG deck cannot unless it fights a deck of suitable power lvl even than I need them lands! Do I feel a scoop coming on?:P
Cube? no, just me?
I think the idea of people searching that God roll deck is pretty cool it's like the hunt for the diablo God roll rolled into a card game
I learned to play Keyforge during a casual tournament hosted by a friend at his house. I like Magic more, though. The house-system feels very opressive to me (if my English is correct. I speak Dutch). I can always only use one third of my hand or battlefield. Practically meaning you have three hands at the same time. In Magic, having a bunch of creatures down pretty much means you're winning. In Keyforge, you need to "select a battlefield" and sometimes that third doesn't synergise that well with itself. Also, in Magic you can "pull yourself ahead". In Keyforge you can only push your opponent back (not fun for your opponent) I tilted right before the end of the tournament. Me and my opponent could only blow each others stuff up for three turns (highly frustrating for both of us) and then he stole all my amber and won.
Maybe with a bit of more gameplay you will encounter that you can play more then 1 house if cards allow it.
If you are focusing on board control, creatures and combat, like MTG, you're making a fundamental mistake. This is the mistake I made at the pre-release event I went to and lost my first few games because I treated it like MTG. It's more a tempo game, and combat is really only used when you need to fire fight. Now I've played more, I have to say it's an awesome game.
Also feel the one house per turn rule adds to an already complex decision tree, and gives the game depth.
I've played quite a bit of KeyForge, I super dig it. I haven't run into any problems with truly weak decks. A few friends pulled Horsemen decks, but I really think people should try it. It's really fun and worth your time.
Personally, I love so much about this game. I got the starter set for Christmas and picked up a few additional decks along the way. The only thing that I don’t like is that the games take forever. I’ve tried at least 6 times to play and I’ve never been able to finish one. To be fair, it’s been mostly learning, but it just takes forever to get going.
Tried it and love it! Keyforge has been great for my family and friends. Yet, it has a ton of deeper complex gameplay to keep me excited and engaged. I highly recommend it to everyone!
Funny how people comment on KeyForge being "unbalanced". The game is only out for 2 months and im guessing you all didnt buy 50+ decks to test that theory. Maybe the few decks you own are playing not well against others? So far, i encountered only that the Mars faction seems a bit underpowered/chaotic/unusable. Maybe that has to do with the fact that the Mars faction was a late addition to the other factions during game design. Lets hope this gets better with the next set.
And about the Mana screw/drain in MTG. Yes, in Keyforge you get restricted by your active house. But come on, that is not a "House screw" similar to MTG. So far if have never been able not to play anything on my turn. Which could happen in MTG. But enough of comparing the two. Magic has a rich 25+ year history. And KF is not competing with that. KeyForge offers a very interesting take on the collectible format with great gameplay.
I think KF offers great "balanced" gameplay out of the box, sealed or with your own deck against each other. Somehow playing sealed in MTG seems a lot harder with more randomness if you need to construct a good deck with a few boosters. Also a lot of fun in 2 headed giants environments of course.
either way KF is a great take on Collectible Deck Games (new acronym ?!) and i cant wait for the next set...
House screw? You actually get to pick which house you use each turn; if you have anything out, you can do at least something!
Chains, the "balancing" feature of Keyforge which restricts drawing (sometimes to incredible degrees) *could* balance a tournament scene *if* Fantasy Flight sticks with the game. Something not mentioned in the video, and rightfully so considering the main talking points, is deck registering. Fantasy Fight expect and will probably require decks to be registered when you go to a tournament. From here, especially in a tournament setting, wins and losses are tracked and processed. Cards that are deemed powerful will almost certainly have a Chain value assigned to them to help keep the balance. Winning or high ranking tournament decks will likely see a Chain ranking tied to them as a whole meaning if your deck wins a major tournament, it will be hampered in the next tournament you play it in. This will encourage, but not force, players to continue to bring different decks to minor and major tournaments assuring there isn't one deck to rule them all.
The tools are all there and the exploding popularity of the game points to Fantasy Flight sticking with it for at least a few years. Major sanctioned tournaments are planned through 2020 and minor hobby store tournaments with official Fantasy Flight prizes are currently taking place. Over a half million decks have already been registered at the Fantasy Flight website and it would make sense to believe many more have been purchased, but not registered. I know in my local area core sets were instantly sold out and even decks are extremely rare. Just thought I'd throw some additional insight onto a great video!
Myself and many others I know who do game streaming enjoy the game. Is it perfect no but its been the closest thing to rivaling magic for many people. As you mentioned it solves a lot of problems. The various tournament formats for competitive play seem to help keep it interesting and fair in most cases. I think going forward in the next few months we get new formats, new sets, pro play those things will be one of the deciding factors in the staying power of the game. How a games expansion is handled especially the way this one is made will make a difference. Its nice for people to stay playing the game as there are no pricey cards needed to stay competitive the way they have things set up. I got a full box of 12 decks for Christmas skipped the starter box. Its nice to be able to play it on Tabletop Sim and Crucible as well. Great ways to test your decks or play against folks when you cant get to your local store to enjoy some game time.
I have seen a possible competitive format floating around the community.
1) Everyone shows up with 3 decks
2)When you sit down with your opponent you will both ban 1 of each other's decks that you don't want to play against.
3) Out of the 2 remaining you pick which one of your's that you want to play.
I like this since it stops the problem of someone showing up with one busted deck and crushing the whole tournament.
I've played quite a few games of Keyforge and picked up a few decks. Although fun it's always felt quite unbalanced. One deck was hard to beat because it was full of removal. Another I had seemed to be based on artifacts whereas my opponent had cards that shut them down, rendering a degree of my deck ineffective. I also had a deck that had cards to make my attacks with creatures generate amber, but only featured a couple of actual creatures of that colour and no way to activate creatures outside of that house with the card.
Things like this have made me feel although I enjoyed the gameplay, the outcomes of games felt largely out of my hands and that just a series of things happened, with any wins or losses feeling more luck than actual skill. Now it's become more about finding a deck with a silly name than actually getting decks to play. I'd give it a C+. A fun diversion for a while, but not worth sinking too much time, or money into.
That's a trademark of Richard Garfield game design, (un?)fortunately. Think of MTG cards like Blood Moon, Boil, or Rule of Law. Garfield likes designing game pieces that punish opponents for being greedy or synergizing too much, aka pieces that create stories you'll reminisce about. "One time I played a guy with all Dual Lands, and then I played Blood Moon and he lost right away!"
In this game, some randomly generated decks are super good because they synergize: high creature count, all spells that create Amber, 6 board wipe/AOE effects. However, all of these super powerful decks have counter-strategies that make your highly oiled machine look like garbage (respectively, the above decks all lose horribly to the one on the left of the list). That's why with Keyforge, a well-rounded, middle of the road deck will often be better ON AVERAGE than one of the busted-looking ones that are easily countered.
This might be a "git gud" problem
It's not a git gud problem. You can definitely outplay someone who has a better deck but there's no changing the fact in one game I had a card that destroyed all humans. They just had a board wipe... and around 2 humans.
its card game, there will always be situations when you have luck on draw or your oponent doesnt. in comparison 9/10 games i play are damn close and often 1 turn is the doffrence between winning or loosing. and i play with multiple oponents and with multiple decks. here the key is to KNOW your deck, its strenghts and weakneses and play around them. sure sometimes you will have bad cards in deck but still you can do something about it.
hey Prof,
Good review. As a magic player, I really really enjoy key forge, but I do think that the way it is designed makes it much different than MtG when it comes to organised play. There is no deck building, true. But the unique deck opens up a myriad of possibilities of play this way. Even sealed/draft is very different. I have talked about this with some people and saw ideas as:
- constructed reversal : you bring and register a deck to play, but each match your opponent plays with your deck. You need to defeat your own deck each round.
- Auction sealed : Everyone opens a deck and reads all the deck lists. Then each player bids chains (which limits the way a deck works) to play a deck in that tournament. Each round you begin with the amount of chains your winning bid was.
- Survival Sealed : You get 3 sealed decks. Each time you lose a match, you are not allowed to play that deck anymore for the remainder of the tournament.
- Survival Constructed : You bring 3 decks. Each time you lose a match, you are not allowed to play that deck anymore of the tournament.
- best-of-two sealed : You get 2 sealed. Games are best of three. If you lose a game, you have to play your other deck.
- best-of two reversal sealed: You get 2 sealed. Games are best of three. If you win a game, you have to play your other deck.
This is all wildly different from MtG organised play. And i do think this part for me was throwing my preconceptions about tournament play from MtG out of the window.
I enjoy this game for the most part. We personally use Ascension pieces for amber and keys.
FFG just hit 500k unique registered decks in two months. Glad to see your coverage of this great game.
Love this video! I was actually waiting for you to make this. I've been playing Keyforge since release date. Only bought one deck and has stuck to it ever since.
If you don’t want to buy tokens, there’s an app on IOS called ÆmberTracker that keeps track of the tokens for you. It doesn’t replace status cards or life tokens for creatures though.
Ive picked up a couple of decks and love the game. It very much reminds me of something richard garfield said about his intentions when first designing mtg. It was meant as a fun, casual game that he and his friends could play as a break in between long dnd sessions. Now obviously the game exploded in popularity and has evolved since then but keyforge seems very reminiscent of that sentiment. My friends and I typically play keyforge when we want to take a break from magic after a couple of commander games during game night, or as an alternative to a board game. Just hand out whatever decks we collectively brought with us and play. All in all a fantastic new product i am excited to see what direction it takes next
I've really enjoyed my few plays of Keyforge. We have a few MTG players here in my town that have tried the game and enjoyed it. We are planning a little mini tournament/game day once stock is back in at the store.
One of the really cool things I found in the game in relation to Magic is the flavour text. There is actually quite a bit of it that makes reference to Magic cards or flavour!
Deck building is one of my favorite past times. I've built so many theoretical decks and practical decks that I never have time to play all of them. All my regular magic friends have started playing Keyforge and have told me to pick up a deck to play with them, but I've been distant with the game because of the lack of deck building. There's a kind of calming zen like state of being when you are looking through cards, looking for cards, researching, play testing, and tuning a deck to meet the idea you have; be that idea a fun casual deck that doesn't worry about winning but concerns itself with making an engaging and dynamic session at the card table with your friends , decks built with new players in mind to get them excited about playing, or a deck fine tuned so you can "bring the spike" to the table. After this video though, I might buy a deck of Keyforge. Maybe.
I'm really enjoying my experience with KeyForge so far I hope it sticks around and we see new mechanics and sets.
Regarding competitive play, check out the four different formats and the newly updated tournament chain system. I think these will be really interesting for competitive play.
Really enjoy KF for the kitchen-table aspects, and will likely pick up a few more decks just for variety with my family. I agree though, as a competitive game, it feels like there's a lot of unneccesary hurdles to get over to 'force' a balanced playing field. I'd much rather just have a group of similarly powered decks to choose from, rather than try to pick a deck to deal with a 'meta' that's developed around a rare combo or set of houses. Much like Epic, most of the cards are *really* powerful, but also really situational, so you get a lot of swings in a game that depend on you having the right board state at the right time (but can also lead to a very one-sided game).
Overall, since the buy-in is very low (comparatively), and the spike scene is probably not going to be sustainable, I hope to see KF be a more casual (but still take-that) game that can exist beside MtG.
I'm lean more on the end of thinking the starter box is great. I feel a lot more confident when teaching someone how to play that the matchup will feel better with the starter decks.
I am very intrigued to try this game out and would definitely give it a chance. I also believe that not being able to build a deck is necessary for the game to thrive and be enjoyable. We would quickly run into the same problems the MTG deals with and would have to immediately try and correct course to stray away from it. While we cant make our decks, the fact they are ready to play out of the box and randomized to begin with is great and will really test skill and knowledge of the rules.
I think the card named 'the sting', is a very powerful card
Artifact of shadows, give you 1 Anber when cast.
Skip your 'forge a key step', you get all the Anber your opponent uses to forge a key.
Action: destroy 'the sting'
for the casting system, i still prefer how Force of Will manages it, keeping the mana in a separate deck, using your "commander" to play lands.
I've been distracted by the orange tie. 11/10, would watch again.
have a starter set, played against a friend a few times; it's a decent game, though the strategy is not as strong as a game like MtG; one thing that I think is a big plus for newer players is that there is no way to play a card during your opponent's turn, so like no counterspells to have to strategize around, or worrying about attacking into a Settle the Wreckage
I don't know, the only thing that keeps decks from being constructed are the back of the cards, but a very opaque sleeve can fix that.
Still, one of the things I love about card games is building a deck and selecting your strategy, that you get to look back in awe when your Deck is working really well and you feel proud to have built it yourself. However, in Keyforge, you don’t get that, you may get excited if your Deck does well in a game regardless, but it’s not going to feel as good. I personally love playing against my friends to see what ideas they come up with for decks, so even if you lose, you still get to feel good about what you did do. However, my main complaint with Keyforge isn’t necessarily the game itself, it’s the community, the people I played with have been quite unfriendly and the person who got me to play with them for the first time was winning by a lot, which as most know can be stressful, they were laughing at me throughout the game and made me feel dumb and that I was nothing. Then when they asked me what I thought about the game it felt like something intended to mock me, instead of just seeing what I thought of it.
I probably would have mentioned the chain system when speaking about alternatives to mana, to emphasize that there were other resources you can expense to have access to more powerful card
So, on the premade decks, I didn't like them at first, but they play well against each other, so it is helpful for learning.
This game is awesome!! Me and my friend both started playing it at our game store before it was even released. I find my favorite format is sealed but there are a ton of formats I could see being competitive. One thing we’ve done is take a couple decks that we weren’t using, made sure that there were an even about of each house and Winston drafting with it! It’s been a ton of fun and I might like it better then sealed!! I really like drafting in magic and I have a cube but I find we don’t draft it as much now. We play a lot of keyforge nowXD
Transformers (made by WotC) is prob the BEST card game I've ever played and I've been a loyal MTG tourney player for a decade and a half.
Keyforge sufers the same prob as MTG--Mana screw. In KeyForge, your opponent can get lucky and draw cards all from the same house while you are stuck being able to play 1-2 cards and they endlessly play their hands, redraw, do it again.
Plus the fantasy thing is REALLY played out at this point.
A few notes:
I really enjoyed this video.
I wasn't a huge fan of the game, but I understood it's appeal.
Somethings you missed were how the game does have some REALLY weird interactions and rules. While not common, certain cards have some really weird gameplay reactions. These include cards like "Biomatrix Backup", "Restringus" and things like "Chains". If you haven't seen what I mean about the two listed cards, check the most recent rulebook update (v7) for more info.
Keyforge, despite it's design, does suffer from the very thing Garfield didn't want. A great example is there are special cards in some decks that only show up when another card does. The Horsemen of the Apocalypse each have a card, and where one is found so are the other 3. Some decks have had two copies of each. Initially one of those decks sold for 2000 dollars. While the market has somewhat stabilzed, those decks are still in an expensive range (200 range for double, 20-100 for single horseman copies). And there are other cards that also boost or decrease a deck's value, such as Mavericks. This idea of people dropping a ton of money on a deck that retails for 9.99 msrp leaves a very magicky taste no?
Small side note: Names are procedurally generated, but houses actually have a very small influence on names. Mars decks usually get "Abductor" or "Probe" in the names, and I haven't yet seen a deck without mars with those names (I could be wrong, but at the minimum, the names are more common from the house)
Overall, I feel as a brief introduction, you've created an excellent video, but the game itself has some glaring issues that do need be addressed by the creators, and I feel it's important to let new people know about such things to help better shape their view.
Nice video! Regarding your concerns about "spikes" cracking decks to find the good ones, it's worth noting that the two most popular formats for the game (Sealed and Archon) avoid this problem in effective ways. Sealed, of course, means you don't bring a deck at all, so you just crack your deck on the spot and play it - no chasing involved. The Archon format sees players bring their best decks and play a Best of 3, with the twist that players swap decks after game 1. If neither player has 2 wins after the second game, they bid chains (the handicap mechanic) to see who is willing to take the biggest handicap to play with the deck that won the most in the previous two games, so if you want the "better" deck during the tiebreaker, you'll have to put yourself at a disadvantage. It's a pretty brilliant system, IMO, and means that just because you have the best deck doesn't mean you're going to win every tournament, since your opponent will have a chance to play with the deck as well.
That's very interesting. Probably should have been mentioned in the video. A very cool idea that can be used what's other games as well, I suppose. Thanks for posting this.
I've been playing KeyForge since August. I love it. I wish you would have highlighted the appeal of KeyForge: becoming skilled with your unique deck. Focusing on not-building decks is going to turn away people who don't know this.
12:00 KeyForge does have official Organized Play from Fantasy Flight Games, and there will be a World Championship.
6:20 The names of the decks are actually generated by the contents of the deck.
Hey, I'm very new here and just picking Magic up again (last played several years ago in school). Played the videogame "Faeria" for a long time. It is a Card Game where your mana is also building the playing field and the monsters are placed on it. So it becomes a hybrid between turned base strategy games and card games. Really enjoyed it. Ever heard of it ?
My wife and I tried two decks that a store got as a demo before the game was released. However, she wasn't very sold on it and thought it was a pain to play a game of "I hope I have some good strategy this turn." Whereas I kind of saw it more in a BattleCon or Streetfighter sort of light and saw a deck to be mastered and like a character of its own.
Either way, I have not been able to get her to try it again and I don't have any local people in playing it. I would like to have a set of like 6 decks and just call it a day with that and find out a good balance between them all for a fun casual night with a few people though.
We are sticking with something like 60 card singleton, or 100 card highlander style games of MTG but our card pool is so limited it feels like personally, it would be better to have some premade content to pull out and have fun playing rather than spending time chasing down cards and building...
Why not offer add-on packs for individual decks? Especially if they are printing these so randomly generated as is.
But the idea is a nice one, to have everything you need to play for $10. And it will always be varied matches with all the “diversity”.
I love Keyforge and i am really glad someone took the risk to produce it. For the many concerns i read around here i can say: 1- balancing is possible with chains, i have had many onesided matches that have been brought to a single amber of difference using the right amount of chains (this can be easily done by switching decks with your opponent and then betting on chains); 2-the sustainability is already there since until now Keyforge pulled some crazy selling numbers, so they are going to invest in it and at least we are going to see a cycle from FFG, it means a span of 5-10 years (nothing is ever going to be like Magic anymore); 3- the fun factor can be ruined mostly by yourself, i have played Magic for a long time and stopped when saw the tendency of printing ''powercreep'', so i approached this game with an open mind to just flow with the fun of it, on the other hand a friend of mine already started going nuts on what is good and what is bad, submitting ADHD (consistency tests that you can make) on every deck we have and you can clearly see it is affecting his enjoyment of the game.
To conclude as a TLDR : the game has a working balance system, they are going to support it for quite some time and the only one that can ruin the fun of it is yourself. Buy Keyforge to learn once again to enjoy your childish nature, this are my 2 cents.
I've loved playing with it since it's come out and it's a blast. My friends and I bought about 7 decks and we just rotate them around.
I’m probably going to try it. I like the idea of reliving high school tcgs where we all have are cobbled together decks. There’s something fun about that casual gameplay. But I don’t like that I can’t build my own deck. That’s sort of the point of a trading card game. I’ll still give it a try
I actually don’t play card games that I can’t do customizations on. If it’s a board game where players have decks, that’s a different story. But an actual tcg with no customization just feels bad imo.
It sounds bad at first but I decided to check it out and I'm hooked man. Just try getting like 1 or 2 decks, they're only $10 a deck so if you don't care for it then it's not a huge loss.
Can't call it a TCG if you remove the Trading... though theoretically you could trade a deck for another.... I doubt that will happen often.
Drake Deriemaeker it’s not a cost issue. I’m a brewer. I love making decks to play, not just playing. I love doing crazy things and if the game is the same every time cause I can’t customize my list, I don’t think it’ll be worth it. That being said, if every single deck is literally random, there isn’t a finite number (like 20) decks and you can find a fun one, then it might be okay.
@@leuj8702 deck trading is abundant. Trading decks has become what trading cards is for MTG. The secondary market is very populated.
@@Alvikus That's precisely what i said to my friend who suggested i'd buy a deck. Yes, you can't customize, but the entire approach is different - instead of bending the deck to your will, you learn its combos and interactions and bend your strategy to the deck. It's extremely refreshing.
I think the format where you play the first game with your own deck then you switch decks and if it's a tie you bet on the winning deck is super cool and could be a great competitive format. It would even be worth it to try this in magic.
As someone who just brewed 4c aristocrats in Arena, all the while thinking "this will probably be terrible," I'm not a fan of no deck-building. It's one of my favorite things about MTG. However, I watched the LRR stream where they played this, and the gameplay itself seems cool.
It's great to see Keyforge picking up in popularity. I'm quite surprised that already half a million decks have been opened and registered on their database, so it's clearly gaining some steam. I was happy to hear it namedropped on Limited Resources and happy to see a video for it here.
As a casual game, it's quite nice. Considering how often you advocate for battle boxes, I'm surprised you didn't make the analogy that your Keyforge collection is essentially an ever-growing battle box of sealed decks! In Magic, when we're done with a draft or sealed game, we go home, pick our deck clean of value, and stow the draft chaff in a BCW 5000 never to be seen again. I appreciate how there's a lot less "waste" with this game.
But in terms of gameplay, I've been underwhelmed. The mana system of Magic gives the game a tempo that I've found to be the most satisfying part of the game, from the resource constrained first three land drops, to the point where players are out of cards and trying to get that last bit of reach. Keyforge is swingy and flashy, where big plays are the norm and "who's the beatdown" is always in flux.
That being said, the biggest challenge facing Keyforge (and any new card game on the block) is that it lacks organized play with the ubiquity of FNM. Part of what you get for buying into the game of Magic is the ability to walk into just about any LGS on a Friday evening and play a game you know well with people you've never met. It's risky for LGSs to invest in the next fad, so if players want to convince their store to stock the product and hold the events, they need to be the ones to pick up the legwork and do education, outreach, and advocacy.