The Real Story of Rhaegar & Lyanna - A Song of Ice and Fire - Game of Thrones
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- Опубліковано 16 кві 2024
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Rhaegar and Lyanna, the Tourney at Harrenhal, Robert's Rebellion, baby Jon snow, the Prince That Was Promised (one part anyway) - what's this R+L=J thing all about? Why did they do what they did, and what was it like for them?
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title image uses "Rhaegar and Lyanna" by Silvatius - Розваги
Kind of hilarious that David Lightbringer, one of if not the most prolific ASOIF theorist, has waited this long to cover R+L=J for the first time 😂
Because it's HBO nonsense
@@pyramidion5911lol
Right! 😂
@@pyramidion5911funny!
@@pyramidion5911 What's your theory?
Idea: if Rhaegar wanted the third head of the dragon to commemorate Visenya, he might have wanted a warrior woman to be that kid’s mom.
Ooooh, great pick-up!
There is this one line from Eddard IV that is obviously R + L = J. For context, in Eddard III, Ned killed lady. In this scene, he is talking to Little Finger about the assassin sent to kill Bran: “Ned rose and paced the length of the room. "If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself … no, I will not believe that." Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert's talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry's audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.”
Sansa pleaded with Ned not to kill her puppy. Lyanna pleaded with him to save her baby. Especially after the mention of killing Rhaegar’s first son.
So Raegar having a son and him being killed and that being said in the same chapter PROVES R + L = J????! I really wonder about you people’s thinking. How does that make any sense. Did you just learn to read. My little pony is probably your speed. R+L=D, B+A=J
@@TheCbot88 Dude, why are so you angry about a fantasy book? I’m just here for a good time. You need to touch grass
@@TheCbot88Are you okay?
Yeah, I’m great, I just don’t think you guys know what foreshadowing means. Two sentences being in the same paragraph means literally nothing. Books have lines. Lines are printed linearly. One after the other. The punctuation tells you it’s a new sentence. I literally don’t see any connection. I read, speak and comprehend English very well - sorry, not sorry. You guys have dumb opinions and you’re even worse at expressing them. It’s hard to believe English is your first language.
bro, you're out here accused of other people of poor reading comprehension, and you think RLD and BAj? have a look in the mirror. And maybe actually watch the video you're commenting on because I think I proved it behind a doubt. And this line - if you don't understand the basic parallelism happening here, with Sansa pleading for an innocent life, and Lyanna pleading for an innocent life, with Robert being the looming specter in both situations, then I can't help you and you're in no position to be lecturing people about foreshadowing. you also came in rude from your first comment and if you keep it up you will be banned.
I’ve always found the blame that Rhaegar gets for the death of his wife and children a little unfair. He left them in safe hands, at the seat of his houses power, protected by one of the most naturally skilled swordsman in Westeros who’s a sworn Knight of the Kingsguard and who’s also from a great house, he can’t truly be blamed for Jamie’s carelessness.
Now, I do think he made a lot of bad decisions and isn’t innocent by any means, but if Jaime had been there when the Mountain broke through Elia’s door (where Rhaegar had ordered him to be) then his wife and children would’ve been safe, and the Mountain either dead or forced to fall back.
If Aerys left them at Dragon Stone they would be still alive and didn't he burn Lord of North and his son. This wouldn't gotten so out control.
Impregnating a 15 year old is inherently very dangerous to the mother.
Young girls are much more likely to die in childbirth, there are reasons we in modern times value the fact children cannot consent
Thank you for acknowledging this the amount of times I've heard people say he killed his wife and children is agonizing it's not his fault they were in Kings landing nor his fault that tywin was let into the city areys killed rhagars family not rhagar
@@thatoneblackdude3333 well it was his fault that he kept his relationship with lyanna a secret which caused all this mayhem
No wonder Robert thinks about Rhaegar bitterly. Homie’s last word was Robert’s fiancée’s name. Rhaegar couldn’t have done it better if he’d moonwalked into all seven of the heavens singing Rick Astley
"But babe, I wasn't cheating! It was prophecy"
works less well in the real world
@@DavidLightbringer Worked for Hosea's wife ;-)
Just got to 49:00 minutes in, starting to talk about Elia. She's so mysterious to me
that random clip of Rhaegar just silently eating cereal is a gem 😂
I came to R+L=J through Jaime’s speech to Catelyn about how he has more honor than Ned bc he never dishonored Cersei while Ned dishonored Cat. I realized that Ned would not have done this. But he would sacrifice his own honor publicly to save a child. That plus the blood in the bed and Lyanna’a dying words to Ned at the Tower of Joy in his fever dream.
That was probably Danny. She looks like Ashara.
It was the "in her bed of blood" that persuaded me. Another character referred to childbirth as a "bloody bed" and what else could a bed of blood really mean anyway. It's obvious that Lyanna had a baby.
Lyanna doesn't even know that she tricked Ned
@@SoCalledGodessLyanna did have a baby, then the wetnurse switched it.
@@SoCalledGodess Ofcourse she had a baby. The question is wether it is Jon.
It's funny that Jon is a Targaryen that looks like a Stark (Black hair and brown eyes), while his cousins are Starks that look like Tullys (Red hair and blue eyes)
Actually Jon has grey eyes but they're so dark they look kinda black 🤓☝️
Ned also has red hair
@@pyramidion5911no he doesn’t. wtf are you talking about?
@@pyramidion5911telling us you only watched the show without telling us you only watched the show.
I think @@pyramidion5911 is on to something here. Ned was actually JonCon all along. No better way to secure the North's Southern Ambitions than playing both sides of the rebellion. That's why he has red hair
That ad with reading Rhaegar is just great. Good enough not to skip past 😂
This and an long-18th century history channel that focuses on equipment and tactics of the UK army are the only 2 channels that I actually look forward to watching the adverts for
Rhaegar could be the mascot for a cereal commercial.
@@kellypayeur7880 yes, i hope they cast Dave Lightbringer as Rhaegar. Now that would be some very savvy casting
I do love Magic Spoon!
One does not simply skip Reading Rhaegar ads.
I propose that neither of them lived long enough to have a real fight in their relationship so their bond over the prophecy combined with their attractions towards each other with those rose colored glasses would breed that their relationship was “picture perfect”. Up until they died of course.
Another way it's like Romeo & Juliet
That's a good point. It gets painted in this 'romantic' light but how long would the "honeymoon phase" have lasted. What would it have been like a few years after?
@@ThommyofThennProbably when they had to figure out the whole polygamy situation lol. I wouldn't want to be on the bad side of a Dornish Princess, even as a she-wolf. And even if Ellia was ok with the situation, those are tricky waters to navigate.
All the ballads and tragedies are modeled after this brief, intense, doomed love. I find stories like Cat losing Ned much more compelling. A tried, true and tested love snuffed out before you could stop it. I want songs about that.
Hey I just noticed we were talking in that GirlNettles stream. Nice!
@@jessjess23brooks89Even in fully consenting 'love triangles' (sorry if there is a better term for it. Throuple maybe??) , I agree it would be perilous especially when you have a volatile mix of passionate young people. I know Elia is often painted as demure or something but I don't see much basis for that. Yea she was in poor health after several tough pregnancies but that (i assume) doesn't really say anything about her as a person. She was Dornish! I bet she was as firey as a Dornish pepper in her wroth and could spit venom if her ire was raised.
And the 2nd part of your post raises the interesting point about the fixation on unstable, usually toxic or unsustainable at best relationships, a trope that to extent, is still found in music today.
Maester Aemon remembers how the love of his life looked. The shape of her nose, color of her eyes, etc.
I love hearing Jon called a special snowflake.
Great video as always!
With the 3 Kingsguard, I think the reason they did what they did and died fighting Ned and company is that while they may have known from Lyanna that Ned would never be a threat to her baby, Ned was still a *political* enemy.
From the Kingsguard’s perspective, Ned was still a rebel who helped overthrow the Targaryens and supported the “usurper”. Even after the Sack of King’s Landing and the atrocities against Rhaegar’s family which Robert approved, Ned had still lifted the siege at Storm’s End and made the Reacher lords bend the knee to the new King Robert.
So while Ned could be trusted to pass the baby off as his bastard and raise him in safety at Winterfell, that is NOT what the Kingsguard would have wanted.
And even with keeping the baby safe, even Lyanna had fear on her face before Ned said “I promise”, and the Kingsguard would have much less reason to trust him.
But based on the conversation in the Tower of Joy flashback, it is very clear that the Kingsguard believed baby Jon was the true King.
Especially with how they refer to Ser Darry who fled with Rhaella and Viserys (who at that point Rhaella had crowned as King) as “Not of the Kingsguard”, and that “the Kingsguard does not flee”, and they “swore an oath”.
One is reminded of Stannis, another prophecy-driven Azor Ahai figure like Rhaegar, who commands his men that if he should die in battle, then they are to “seat my daughter upon the Iron Throne, or die in the attempt”. It is possible Rhaegar gave them a similar order.
And even without an order like that from Rhaegar, if the Kingsguard saw baby Jon as the trueborn rightgul King, then they would see it as their duty to seat him on the Iron Throne.
So as opposed to Ned raising Jon in Winterfell and keeping his parentage secret, the Kingsguard’s plan was likely to raise Jon either in Essos or in Loyalist Dorne (likely Starfall), perhaps keeping him secret and hidden for a time, but once Jon was old enough, press his claim and use him to try and rally the realm and restore the Targaryen dynasty.
And so I think that is why they fought to the death, to stop Ned from being the one to raise baby Jon which would prevent a Targaryen restoration.
And as for Gerold Hightower, I personally do not think he was at all hostile to Rhaegar, or was keeping Lyanna hostage for Rhaegar’s good behavior. Particularly because he seemingly did not send any word back to Aerys about Lyanna. But once Rhaegar died, I think he was probably keeping Lyanna hostage insofar as he may have disregarded any wishes she may have had about her or the baby going to Winterfell. And instead would have forced her to stay in hiding with the baby, and eventually pressing the baby’s claim. And since he was not one Rhaegar’s companions like Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent, he probably was not privy to or cared about the prophecy or “savior of the world” stuff, and was instead focused on the political aspect and his duty as a Kingsguard.
Those are just my thoughts on that bit though.
those are good comments, thanks for taking the time to type them out. I'm particularly keen on the idea that the alternate plan was to take Jon to Starfall and raise him there, that makes a certain amount of sense. This situation is interesting because we actually have a lot of individual details and bits of information, enough to assemble plausible hypotheses, but not enough to know which one is right. as for Gerald Hightower, I would just point out that he was one of the ones telling Jamie not to protect Rhaella from Aerys's abuse, and I believe that detail is included so that we know Gerald is one of the bad kingsguards who is more loyal to the king than his nightly oaths or morality. on the other hand, Arthur and Oswell having been with Rhaegar for the past year, one would think they were aware of any plans he was making to depose the mad King, and obviously they didn't haul him into King's Landing and turn him in, which means they were sympathetic, and potentially tired of enabling such a cruel king. That gives me reason to believe Hightower might have been forcing the other Kingsguard to fight against their will. in any case, thanks again for the comments and I hope you'll leave a comment on my next RLJ video :)
I had forgotten that it was Hightower who said the “but not from him” line to Jamie. So yeah Hightower was definitely one of the bad Kingsguard and someone George is using as an example of someone who is not a “true knight”. So he definitely could have been doing something like holding Lyanna hostage against Rhaegar. Though I think even as an Aerys supporter he would still want to protect the Targaryen baby.
And a thought that just came to me now, if Hightower had forced the other Kingsguard to fight against their will, that could potentially explain why the Daynes seemingly don’t hate Ned and actually seem to like him (naming Ned Dayne after him). Which I really have honestly never heard a convincing explanation for.
Jon being raised at Starfall kind of sounds like a good fanfiction idea lol. But it just kind of made sense to me because of Arthur Dayne of course, and then Dorne which remained loyalist would be a good position to launch a rebellion from.
Very much looking forward to your next R+L=J video on the Secret Wedding! A trend I’ve noticed in the online fandom discussion particularly post-season 8 is an insistence that Jon would still be a bastard and does not have a claim to the throne, which imo defeats the point of RLJ and what it would mean for Jon. So I hope you address some of those things.
And I just wanted to say how much I appreciate your videos and how much effort you put into them! You are basically the only person who consistently has fresh insights and ideas and new theories. And you always present things in an entertaining and well put together way.
I always imagine that when Rhaegar went off to find the "Knight of the laughing tree", he must have found Lyanna, worked out it was her somehow and the pair of them probably fought!
I bet he was like "Come on "my lady"! We'll take you back, you can explain blah blah" and she probably tried to fight him and banter ensued! Maybe they too ended up in the water of a pond or lake and were soaking and as they fought she slowly told him the real story. "Those Squires deserved it for beating up the Crannog man! Someone needed to teach them a lesson!" And the more they fought and the feistier Lyanna got (and maybe she handed Rhaegar his ass too!)
Rhaegar was like "Damn, I'm in love." I bet he'd never met any woman like Lyanna, akin to how Jon had never met someone like Ygritte? Someone fiery, fierce and who stood up for everything good, just and righteous! Just like Rhaegar did himself!
I imagine after they fought that Rhaegar probably very quickly realised if Lyanna was put Infront of his father (Aerys) he would one, probably kill her because he was nuts and two, Lyanna's father would likely punish Lyanna for what she'd done even if Aerys didn't first. It would have definitely ruined her status as "a lady".
Lyanna being punished for doing something right, probably didn't sit too comfortably with Rhaegar at all.
He of course, let's her go and later crowns her with the crown of roses because of what she did standing up for Howland. Lyanna WAS the Queen of love and beauty and much much more than that as well.
I suppose he was dumb in the sense that he probably didn't realise that no one else knew the reason he was crowning Lyanna...
Not because he just randomly fancied some girl in the crowd... But because he was rewarding her for her bravery and righteousness.
Maybe Lyanna was sat there, (shitting bricks - as the English saying goes!!) worried that Rhaegar had told his father? Maybe he was going to "out" her when he walked his horse up to where she was sat, watching in the crowd? Only to be presented with the crown of roses and to realise that Rhaegar understood her, that he wasn't going to reveal her secret. In the moment it probably felt like a great idea to Rhaegar! Lyanna too! And then of course the pair realised that to the outsider...... It was going to look very very suspicious.
It's not like Rhaegar could have just gone "Oh hey guys! Don't worry! I don't fancy her! It's just that she bested these idiots who were bullying some guy and I thought, let's reward her with this crown to show I appreciate what she did!!" 🤷🏻♀️🙈
/end rant
Very excited to watch this!
Whenever people say “R + L = J” is too obvious for George, therefore “N + A = J” I just think they’ve been in the online fandom for too long. If someone is reading the books for the first time without the show or online theorists… R + L = J probably wouldn’t even cross their mind. It’s not even suggested by a single character. Anyone who says it’s “too obvious” is really just confirming that George did a FANTASTIC job hinting at it just beneath the surface, which the online community has obviously picked up on.
Exactly, I think people assume if a mystery is guessed or solved than it makes it bad when that is the point of a mystery. Let alone that it has been already confirmed by outside sources that it's true.
I flirted with N+A=J for a bit after watching a bunch of Order of the Green Hand years ago. But after diving into the LmL-iverse I was brought back to canon. David grounds his theories in GRRM’s symbolism and mythology that serve as the foundations for the entire plot. They are the soil in which GRRM tends his garden. Overanalyzing plot elements to construct alternative theories eventually untethers the story from the thematic and esoteric elements of A Song of Ice and Fire.
Well, that's not true for me at all. My first read through, Jon being Lyanna's was the first thing that I concluded before the end of Ned's 1st chapter with Robert in the Crypts.
I'll not take anything off the table until the book is actually released. I have my *opinion* on the topic, but GRRM can still go in any direction he wants. It's why he planted seeds to begin with.
@mattfoulgerBC you are letting people think for you. I've watched both of those channels up and down and have gone through the books back and forth and the only conclusion that makes any sense with the foreshadowing and timeline is B+A=J
N+A=J would legit go against everything we know about Ned as a character…and it would do absolutely nothing for the story. I’ll never understand how anyone believes that theory or how anyone would even want that theory to be true.
I've always assumed lyanna told rheagar the story of Beal the bard, the prophecy clicked into place in his head, then the crown of roses given back to her would be more symbolic.
Isn't Ygritte surprised no one ever told Jon that story?
If the wildlings have it as part of their own oral tradition, I bet Lyanna would have heard it at some point too. Maybe she and Rhaegar had a sweet moment during cuddle time and she told him then
I think another important detail and clue from GRRM on Rhaegar’s character (and how he did not abduct/abuse Lyanna) is how the very first time Dany is compared to him, is when she’s defending the women from being r-worded by the dothraki. Have never seen that as coincidence either. But now I did watch and as said earlier, gorgeous video!! You connected the clues simply and it feels just obvious with your explanations. Such wonderful job, thank you!!✨
What is interesting about the Hades & Persephone is that in some versions they have a son Zagerus who is killed and then reborn and becomes Dionysius. Yes, most people know it as Zeus and Persephone having a kid, but Hades was often referred to as basically "Zeus of the Underworld". They had a healthy respect of him and didn't want to draw attention to themselves by using his name.
Anyway, in regards to that Zagerus myth sometimes it's Zeus that kills him because he promised that the son of Hades & Persephone (or the son of Persephone if Zeus is the father) would inherit his throne. Saw how strong Zagerus was going to be and basically killed him out of fear. To try to cover it up or make things better he implanted the baby in his mortal lover's, Semele, womb. Then Hera tricked her to basically offing herself and so Zeus sowed the fetus into his leg. Thus Dionysius is born.
Sorry this is just a really long way of saying that there is a myth out there where Hades & Persephone have a son who dies and is brought back to life. Like Jon will be. Just minus all the hedonistic bit.
I love how messed up Greek Mythology gets, especially when it comes to Zeus and his many bizarre kids!
Maybe the 'reborn more wolfish" is a misdirection and when Jon is reborn, he will be super chill and just want crush chalices of hot mulled wine (no lemon though, even party-god avatars know that's for southrons😂)
Man, Zeus can just incubate a baby anywhere.
@@thing_under_the_stairsone of the first books I read by myself was this illustrated book of Greek myths my grandparents got me. I read it over and over and I think it got me very used to really weird stuff happening in books. Especially the eating of kids stuff and the dudes giving birth by having fully grown people just climb out of their heads 😮
I learned a new myth today that I have never heard and that makes me incredibly happy, thank you.
One cannot help but think that George should have had more criteria for D + D to write the show than just the identity of Jon Snow's mother.
If I was GRRM, I would’ve asked them what the overarching theme of ASOIAF is. That I feel is the most important question to the series. You can’t have a faithful adaptation if you don’t understand the source material.
Giving Gerold Hightower and these other seemingly throwaway or background characters such depth is actually going to make a reread so refreshing
Hm, it is implied that Rhaegar arranged the Tourney of Harrenhal to depose his father. Varys and his big, fat mouth ruined that. However, Rhaegar showed that he presented a sharp contrast to his mad, insane father. Aerys was doing a good enough job showing everyone that he was nuttier than a fruitcake. While Rhaegar crowing Lyanna his Queen of Love and Beauty could be seen as a romantic gesture, it was stupid. Rhaegar openly snubbed and insulted his wife. By giving Lyanna those roses, it could be implied that she is Rhaegar's mistress, hence Brandon's angry reaction at this perceived slight to his sister's honor. If Rhaegar wanted to use the Tourney as political leverage to assume the throne, crowning someone besides his wife the Queen of Love and Beauty was politically stupid and only alienated the entire audience. Ned himself said it was the moment that "all the smiles died".
you're not wrong about any of that
david mentions rhaegar didn't ask lord rickon for permission to marry lyanna. but if you notice lord rickon didn't ask for his daughter back when he went to king's landing. maybe the fathers know what was going on.
His Magic Spoon Advertising is so fking KINO. The brushing the hair to side.
👁️👄👁️ "I'm a fruity guy myself!"
Just KINO
Jaime says about Rhaella
"We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."
I had totally missed that Gerold Hightower was sent by Aerys, Rhaegar couldn't protect himself or Lyanna from Aerys, so he probably left reluctantly.
@31:15 It is worth noting here that in the original drafts for this story, GRRM had written it as Brandon who shows up to defeat Howland's attackers with a tourney sword. IMO, Brandon makes a lot more sense UNLESS you are trying to establish Lyanna as a character who is just as headstrong and wild as her siblings.
The squires also did not appear to have weapons which, despite Lyanna likely being smaller/weaker than they were, gave her a huge advantage. That and Lyanna's sudden appearance.
She'll be the woman who will fight for their honour
She'll be the hero that he's dreamin' of
They're gonna live forever, knowin' together
That they did it all for the glory of love
You can demonstrate Rhaegar’s respect, even if not love, for Elia as he doesn’t put her through the risk of another pregnancy to meet his own ends. We see other supposedly “good” characters put their wives through fatal pregnancies.
But he still left her and their children behind on Dragonstone. Thusly, leaving them vulnerable to the Mad King.
That definitely seems to be a trait that is fairly unique in Rhaegar, at least compared to some of the other lords/kings. I felt that HOTD was making a bit of a nod to this in s1. As you said, Rhaegar respects/quite possibly loved Elia enough to break several social taboos so that he can continue his quest without forcing her to essentially lay down her life for him. Meanwhile Viserys,
(HOTD SHOW SPOILERS)
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*
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who apparently feels somewhat badly about that absolutely horrifying 'delivery' scene, after quick deliberation, kills his wife in exchange for an heir. I believe Rhaegar would have found another way if he were in that situation too.
@@kellypayeur7880 I mean...kinda? He left them, true - but it proved correct that Aerys was not going to hurt them. Besides, where else should he have left them? It was quite literally the safest place in the realm, holding out months after the rest fell. Taking them with him on a dangerous journey or into war would not have been a reasonable choice either. The only "safer" option would have been to not contribute to that mess in the first place...
@@kellypayeur7880Except they weren’t. Aerys never hurt them, he kept them where he could see them to force Dorne to fight for him but there’s no evidence that Aerys hurt Elia, Rhaenys or Aegon. If Jaime would have done what anything except let Clegane and Lorch do what they did Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon would have probably survived. I’m not blaming Jaime for that btw, he made a mistake and is haunted by it which is more than anyone can say for other people that did/benefitted from what happened to them
@@09hicktown He didn't physically harm them. But he still kept them as prisoners and hostages against their will to ensure Dorne's cooperation.
I think people who don't take the Dornish chars and Ned's lack of criticism for Rhaegar seriously need to better understand how George tends to write. This is a classic example of 'show, don't tell'. As you point out, he puts the characters who know the truth right next to those who don't and lets us notice the difference. George almost never confirms these types of things explicitly, and while I imagine the next books will contain more information people should be prepared for the possibility that we might already know 60-80% of the information about this that he's ever going to tell us.
Rhaegar and Lyanna with the ultimate destination wedding.
What do you think of the theory that Martin is telling a story about how every time you try to force prophecy to happen, it backfires?
There are certainly a lot of misinterpretations of prophecy that ends up destroying the person for trying to make it happen, rather than just waiting to see. Ex: Stannis as Azor Ahai, Aegon's mistake at Summerhall, and even Rhaegar with the Prince that was Promised - as Aemon points out this is Dany, not Rhaegar or his son(s). And so the theory is that Rhaegar's choices to try and fulfill the prophecy ended his life. Vs Dany fulfilled it before she knew about it.
That's pretty much true not much of a theory only to people who refuse to consider azora hai might be Dany reject this thinking
Poor Rheagar, has to listen to all this speculation about the death of his love... Hope the Magic Spoon lifts his spirits!
That Jon Snow as a Targaryen picture at 1:42 might be the best Jon art I have seen in my opinion. More than just the white hair but the style, brushwork. Oh my
Catlyn: “…so…about Ashara Dayne..?”
Calm, stoic Ned: “NEVER ask me about Jon!!!! EVER!!!”
Lol
What's more likely?
- Ashara is Jon's mother and honest-to-a-fault Ned keeps that ONE thing secret from his wife for literally no reason (for reference: this is same guy who warned Cercei ahead of time that his faction was coming for her)
OR
- Jon is a secret Targaryen which would put him in mortal danger if the secret gets out, so Ned doesn't want to talk about it because it's the only thing his honor forces him to lie about
One of those is completely in character for Ned, the other makes no sense based on all that we've seen of him.
People ignore half the text just to shoehorn R+L=J
@@OdekoMoonwell if Jon is Brandon’s son with Ashara then marrying Catlyn to Ned wouldn’t have been a very good move for Hoster Tully. He wanted an alliance with the Lord of Winterfell but if that Lord is a newborn baby that doesn’t bode particularly well does it? So Ned usurped his own nephew for political reasons. Also if Cat knew she would loose all attraction to Ned cause he’s not a Lord. “It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell! I never asked for this cup to pass to me!” He didn’t want any of it.
In the house of the undying, Danny opens Raegar’s visor and sees her own face, that’s her father. Viserys had no qualms about usurping his niece obviously. All he had to do is claim her as his sister. Boom he moves up in succession.
@@TheCbot88 He "never asked for the cup to pass to him"... yet he's willing to lie about the identity of his dead brother's only son and dishonor his marriage to usurp rule from a family member? We're talking about Ned Stark here right, not Tywin Lannister? Just double checking.
What’s the blue winter rose in the wall of ice then?
This is the best explanation of the "to the death" business at the tower of joy I've ever heard
😮9:24 i thought this was some early 1700s oil painting repurposed to illustrate a similar scene from asoiaf. That's some gorgeous and detailed artwork, very neat. It reminds of one where Herod's daughter dances around. Thank you Justin!
Justin is SOO good and he did the trident battle one where Rob and Rhaegar are both raising up in the stirrups about the clash. the best
Holy shit Rhaegar introducing himself is way too funny
That was a terrific video thank you for making it. Delivered like a lawyer's closing argument and full of forensic analysis of the source material. Loved every bit of it ❤️
This is really a treat David! Wasn't excepting one of these more highly edited theroy videos but they are my favorite! Thanks for making my day.
I also like the theory that Rhaegar and his wife were both in agreement with him getting a third child with Lyanna. I remember a theory video where they postulated that Rhaegar was out of the war for so long because he was negotiating with Dorne. Prince Dorian is a wily and ruthless man; he would have pushed his advantage while he could. As for the King's Guard, they likely didn't know much of the fighting since they were isolated, so Ned's taunting was actually informing them of events without him realizing it.
But I do agree with David Lightbringer, that Littlefinger spread lies about the "abduction". It was all about getting back at Brandon Stark for the "souvenir" he got through their duel. He would have witnessed firsthand the chaos and destruction a few carefully constructed words could cause...and use them as "inspiration" in the future to fulfill his twisted ambitions.
Ur little editing jokes r always so funny
Straight up lookin like Elric of Melnibone in the cereal ad
So glad I’m late to the party and have so much content to binge, I watch your videos daily, LML should definitely teach a University Course for Lit
Thank you for breaking this down further Dave. I for one am very happy that magic spoon was kind enough to keep R+L well fed during her pregnancy. Makes sense why Jon is such a strong strapping boy
exactly! high in protein, etc etc, lol
Besides your logical and through analysis, I really appreciate your empathetic and sympathetic take on these two. I truly enjoyed your take.
thank you!
Great video! I hate to say R+L=J is obvious…but it becomes that way as the story progresses. I’m of the party that Ashara is actually with Howland, and Jojen and Meera are her children. It’s interesting to see the rage and paranoia of the crown effect Robert like it did to Aerys.
I love the H+A= M&J theory so much. Not even GRRM himself can convince me it’s not true. They’re like the small bit of happiness in the chaos.
Gerold Hightower - The White Bull - The Gelded Ox, who thought of nothing of Aerys "taking his rights" via his queen, even though it was clearly r***, following each poor person who was burned with wildfire.
hate that man
Thank you, David, another great video! And one of my favorite topics related to ASoIaF. I agree with you on all points. I have never found a good reason for the fight with the Kingsguard. Your solution makes sense and explains everything. The art you found is awesome.
And your ad with Reading Rhaegar is perfect.
I mourn for Rhaegar and Lyanna so much. I feel like they had a beautiful connection, that we may never get to know the true ins and outs of. She's painted as such a badass, but the sound of Rhaegar's harp can move her to tears. And every account of Rhaegar paints him as someone gentle, kind, and just. What a shame to not see these 2 lead the kingdom. I wonder what Rhaegar's plans he spoke of to Jaime were.
Also to feed the theory monster, what do we think of Daenarys secretly being Rhaegar's child instead of sister? I've seen that one here and there.
Perfect content once again ❤
I think N+A=J and him being part Dayne would make him the next "Sword of the Morning/Last Hero" with Dawn/Lightbringer....
Rhaegar is also part Dayne via Egg's mother Dyanna Dayne, so that idea is also compatible with R + L = J!
I think N+A=J would make much more sense when he’s wielding dawn. I’m who invested in the theory lol
@@jakev7633 If you haven't seen it, David has another video called "Dawn is the Original Ice: the Last Hero" that goes through all the evidence that Dawn originally belonged to the Starks during the Long Night.
I mean we think it's the dragonsteel sword of the Last Hero, and the Last Hero was probably a Stark, and Dawn is the only pure white sword, and the Starks have a tradition pre-dating Valyrian Steel of naming their family sword "Ice"... There's just a lot there that lines up.
So if all that's true, it'll be Jon's Stark blood that qualifies him to wield Dawn. His 1/8th Dayne lineage through Rhaegar is just a nice bonus.
@@OdekoMoon I’ve never thought about it that way I can totally see that happening. I’m 50/50 on it all I think both make sense which goes to show how well the story is written.
@@OdekoMoon Also I meant ego invested on the first comment
every time I see complain about age gap from ancient times, I always say this "you should be thankful.. that you are born today. If you were born on that time - I highly doubt you'll have an opportunity to be heard, worst. even be alive to complain"
Further proof for R+L=J just for fun, from good ole Barristan Selmy himself. (Don’t think I heard it mentioned in the vid)
“Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it.” one of his thoughts. Seems like most of the Kingsguard during the rebellion, knew of the affair. Not Jaime though I guess.
You make the adds so entertaining I watch them every time haha
You hear that Magic Spoon? I WATCH THEM EVERY TIME :D
drinking contest at 19 is pretty normal tbh
I was thinking the same thing😂😂
20:05 Dude! 😂
On a serious note: Since George didn't give us TWOW yet, it gave me time to dive deeper and deeper into the world of these books through this channel. I appreciate the ride so far, it will be my 5th anniversary subscribing to you this year (shoutout @QuinnsIdeas for the collabo) and I can't appreciate it enough, my man !
To the journey until now, and to the journey which lies ahead, for it will be glorious!
Cheers and a heartfelt "Thank you" ✊
,🔥🔥🔥
I always thought that Rhaegar sounded kind of insufferable but I never considered him from Lyanna's POV. Now I can see how Lyanna would fall for him. I wish she didn't have to die but she did get to have and experience some pretty great things during her time with Rhaegar. Can't wait for the next video.
I always feel bad for Ned when I consider Robert. Ned lost almost all of his family in the war and then he lost Robert too.
I LOVE the high output Dave..i could watch a few hours every day i think..dig it👍
I LOVE THESE THEORY VIDS 🫶🫶
In my head, Rhaegar didn't find Lyanna. He might have a dream of blue winter roses pouring out of the armor or smth like that. When he saw the blue flower crown it clicked. So he gave it to Lyanna not in a courtship way, but in a "I know it was you and I respect the fuck out of it", cos if he disapproved he wouldn't have crowned her. So they talk and Lyanna sees a man that appreciates her wild side and wanted to marry him. It could potentially solve the uprising itself, by removing the Mad King, replacing him with Rhaegar and sealing the alliance with marriage. I don't think Lyanna would be ok with a prophecy baby because it removes all her agency, but they might have slept together to force the wedding to happen. Although I don't doubt the prophecy was in the back of Rhaegar's mind, secretly hoping for a child (it would also make him less of a "perfect prince" because in a way he used her, as she didn't know he had ulterior motives)
There are literally millions of people (most of 'em dudes) who participate in drinking contests at 19 and don't become alcoholics later. I know that's not the same as in this story but dude having less than responsible fun with substances doesn't guarantee a life of problems
It did though
@DavidLightbringer oh absolutely lol Robert was a drunk asshole. Just that there isn't much to read from a 19 getting shitfaced in regards to that person's future
Great video! I sware you are also the only person I sit through the ads for, hahaha. They are always amusing.
Surely, that line about the wolf's blood in Lyanna and Brandon bringing them to a young death is premonition for a young Arya death?
Excellent video DL!!
Also, the Magic Spoon ad segment was hilarious. I saw it coming & still laughed hard enough to scare my cat.
These are the best adds on UA-cam! 😂😂😂
Ever since I've read dune and dune messiah after listening to got on audio
I can't stop seeing all the things GRRM took from that brilliant story
Got follows dune beat for beat
As the first big event is a visit from the emperor/king to a loyal lord/duke to offer them a position
All around the deep political aspects of these stories
Even George's style of chapters with one perspective is reminiscent of Herbert's prose
In that he switched from thoughts of characters
I haven't heard many talk about the similarities and inspiration that dune and lotr has given asoiaf.
To remark on r+l= j is of course the ancient prophecy of unity.
Odin tried several times to unite the kingdom of Midgard by having a child that was half giant and half aiser.
His first attempt was Thor whose mother was fiorgyn?! Then Loki who was a giant but he was stolen so it didn't work.
To end with Baldur , the golden boy.
Jon is a form of this ancient story
But it could be an inversion of the prophecy
Exactly like Paul attreides
Which of course is a manipulation of the bene giserit
I wish this had come out last time I got into it with a R + L = J denier. Good vid as always.
Very well researched and put together!
Gatorade of the Evening got me real good.
Great as always David! Keep up the awesome work!
Catching this on my lunch break! Thanks as always David! Phenomenal work as always.
Love your vids! Always excited to watch! Can’t wait to see this whole thing
Oh David’s shirt game on fire as always with that baller Deftones shirt!
I e been waiting forever for this! I wish it was a live stream
So pumped for this, best creator out there 💚
Love the art here David!
You are only getting better and better! Thanks for everything, Dave.
I always picture Rhaegar listening to Bauhaus and the Cure.
I've been looking so long at these pictures of you...
@@renlyspeach7622 The passion of lovers is for death.
Great stuff as always Dave
Brilliant and you made me smile a lot. Thankyou
I do believe this is one of a very few videos where I remembered, and decided, to hit the thumbs up for ad integration 😂🤘 Well done, David. ❤️🔥
Love your video's Lml! Thank you for another one!! You have so much great content on your channel & I'm very grateful for all the literary discoveries you've shared with us!!!
HOLY CANNOLI! I’m honestly so stoked for part ii of this series. Thanks for making a new ASOIF fan fall for Lyanna 💙
Not me looking for a good video on this topic AND FINDING YOU UPLOADED 4 HOURS AGO!! Made my hole year!! Thank you🔥🔥🔥
David, I love how you are expanding your channel, using art and debate, cosplay, and of course, Joseph Campbellesk symbolism❤
The “Ned” would never soil his honor! He might slip and say “nephew” I mean natural born son😮
This just arrived exactly when i needed thanks David 😊
Thinking about the actual logistics of a real drinking contest… I don’t think I’ve ever seen one, I’ve done my fair share of parties. I’ve seen people go shot for shot, but making an actual sit down contest is so wild.
Epic. A great video beautifully executed. Nice one David, thank you.
Love this stream! Been waiting for it! Thanks! You do a beautiful job linking the symbolism. GRRM is a master of weaving his symbolism in subtle ways. Neds inner monologue is the icing on the cake. He doesn’t think of Rheagar in a negative way at all. He even makes the mental comparison that he didn’t believe Rhaegar would visit a brothel vs. how Lyanna told him she thought Robert had a baby on a girl and would not keep to one bed. He makes that assumption around a memory of his sister. Good stuff!
Dave, seriously, thank you so much for helping me stay sane waiting for the next book. You give me the ASOIAF fix that I need.
The best cereal ads ever 😂.❤
Great video! Lyanna is a very interesting character for sure, crazy how detailed she is!
the last and best word in the argument per usual
Loved this video Dave ❤
👏 👏 one of the best videos, from one of the best asoiaf connoisseurs 👏 👏
Excellent video. Looking forward to your special R+L marriage video. (Also loved seeing roommate Reagar). ❤
I fricking love these mythhead documentaries
Thanks LML, another great episode o7
Awesome vid!!! Love the Deftones shirt!!