Pilot steals airplane and Kills himself - Career Track 655
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- Опубліковано 25 січ 2024
- On January 24th, 2024 Logan James took a Cessna 172 N23107 from ATP flight school in Addison, Texas on his last flight. After one lap in the pattern practicing a touch and go he made a rather chilling final radio call before seemingly pulling the comm1 and comm2 circuit breakers on the airplane. He flew for about an hour before intentionally crashing the plane into a field descending at nearly 5,000fpm.
Although he pulled the Comm breakers, it seems he left the avionics master switch on, still powering the ADS-b, transponder, and presumably the other avionics equipment onboard the aircraft.
With ADS-b on, we can see his detailed track, ground speed, and altitude changes.
Unfortunately Logan chose to kill himself in this airplane-crash suicide, but hopefully this gives us an opportunity to talk about mental health in aviation and how issues like this, Germanwings, and the Alaska air pilot trying to shut down the engines in flight could all be avoided.
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I think being able to talk to people about our mental health without the risk of losing our medical would be a GREAT start.
I mean, if slightly
Suicidal you should not be flying
@@mattk8810sure but then people who are suicidal won’t talk to anyone about it
I 100% agree. Healthy ways to manage even 1 rough day is better than letting it get worse because you don't want to lose your license.
I believe we need a way for pilots or anyone in aviation to talk to a medical professional without the risk of losing our medical. You can talk to any pilot and most will say the scariest moment of our year is when we walk into see our medical examiners to stamp off on our medical or getting our wings clipped.
First responders have a similar problem, making them afraid to seek help. Locally here in my area, a group started offering a peer to peer counseling service for these first responders. They have had really good response within our local community. Perhaps, this is something that could be done in the aviation industry too.
Amen
yes. very big problem with the industry.
this^
There is! Anyone can talk with a provider with the company BetterHelp! My wife was a therapist with them before she finished her doctorate and became a psychologist. There's no paperwork kept by the provider and no paper trail for the FAA or anyone else to verify that they spoke without a court order and the therapist remembering that person. There are also national hotlines. As long as you don't tell anyone who's a mandated reporter that you have a PLAN to hurt yourself or anyone else, then it's not reported, and no records are held for the FAA to pull.
Aviation was just the tool he used to kill himself. This isn't an aviation problem. ATP is just a means to an end. Same as any other flight school. Logan James was a human, not a future employee. We go to flight school as a way to make money in the future. First step: Put 100k debt in your name. (He was 23, this might not have even been his first school loan to add to my point) Second step: delete your social life to commit to a goal. - Both of these are pretty big mental strains. Plus if you're living at home or with random roommates that's another mental toll at 23 esp. if you have or want a relationship. Now add the stress of daily life, unless parents are funding everything without pressure, how is anyone supposed to afford anything. This happened in Addison, TX. That's right next to one of the wealthiest demographics in the US. It's expensive there. The only reason I'm even commenting is because seeing this video hit a little different, I actually went to that exact ATP location in Addison, I probably flew the plane this guy just killed himself in.
My experience at ATP was shit. Bad first instructor during private almost made me quit the entire thing. 14 months for the whole thing (the other two instructors I had were great)
The only attachment aviation might have to his death is that there isn't much out there to warn you about the reality of it, before you're in it, if you come from a different field. (or like most younger people, no field at all) For me, coming from working on cars all my instructors were 20-30yr in the field. In aviation, it's a bunch of new people teaching new people. Then after spending 100k you can't even do much with it. Just have to get lucky with anyone that will take you till 1,500 hr, which is the boat I'm in now. Had he finished ATP. He'd be sitting at like 250 hr. Now in his head he's thinking about the next 1-2 years and what that's going to look like. Most people go with CFI to build time. Going through the program as a student you see how shit the life of a CFI is while going for the 1,500TT. Now, if life is currently shit, and you see life for the next 2 years is going to be shit, then on top of that you have to start paying a $900 loan back in a few months all while not being able to afford gas next week. Things add up. The problem with those things is that they make you feel trapped by time and money. People can only take so much, he flew a plane into the ground because killing yourself is one of the most difficult things a human can do. Letting the plane hit the ground is easier than pulling a trigger or jumping.
You say that we need to prevent these people from "getting into the cockpit of an airline?" People who want to commit suicide don't do it with 200 other people at risk. Just cause they are depressed doesn't make them fuckin terrorists lol, pretty disrespectful to imply that this guy, had he made it to the airline would have killed everyone in the moment out of no where. That's wild. The funny fucked up reality is that if he were in the cockpit of an airline, making $150k+ at 23. He would have called you an idiot for even suggesting that he'd kill himself. Because money fixes mental, at 23 you don't have money or mental. (or time or freedom)
It's not like it's some mystery why they do it. You're talking about the issue like it's a spot on someone that you can find. That's just the life of a 23 y/o male in America, suicide rates are constantly rising, they don't have a history of drugs, prescriptions, mental disorders, nothin. Lets be honest, even if they did, there's plenty of people with those issues that don't kill themselves. You kill yourself when you feel trapped and lose hope of getting out. That's way bigger than a bad experience at ATP or some bs
Amen, well said brother.....
THIS^^ and not to mention some instructors are toxic asf
Absolutely this^^. EVERYONE is susceptible to mental health declines, even those who care to pretend they aren't, and the fact the FAA tries to paint these issues as an egregious fault with the individual is insulting. The "put up or shut up" mentality only exacerbates the increasingly common problem of pilots either hiding issues or "self-medicating". I have little hope that the FAA will address this problem in any meaningful way. Even their "Special Issuance" HIMS pathways created over the past decade are an absolutely convoluted train wreck of misguided rules that do very little to actually help perfectly capable individuals become pilots or retain their medicals.
Took an SSRI for a couple of years 10 years ago? Yeah, you MIGHT be allowed to fly if you can make it through their gamut of complex tests and evaluations. Took and SSRI and another somewhat related medication to help balance out side effects? You're instantly labeled with what they call "complexity" and, in their view, MUST obviously be a dangerous and suicidal maniac that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near an airplane. This is the lunacy you deal with if you want to get your medical but have a less than perfect mental health record.
Thank you for writing this!!! Your explaination NEEDS to be pinned!!!
real…
As a psychiatrist I have a few comments
First, even though there is a lot of suicide "awareness" these days, suicide by itself is a rare event, and suicide-by-airplane is an incredibly rare event. This suicide/accident here is not at all characteristic of the other 99.9% of the more typical mental health problems people face and their treatments that everyone wishes the FAA would stop stigmatizing. Suicide is a poorly understood phenomenon. We know of some basic risk factors for it (i.e. male, white ethnicity, family history, elderly age, etc.), and access to mental health care will certainly help reduce some modifiable risks, but there is by no means any currently-available tool that we have to meaningfully predict a person's suicide. Hindsight gives us the illusion that a story makes more sense than it actually does in order to feel a better sense of control and clarity, but this risks jumping to inappropriate conclusions that may even worsen the existing stigma (e.g. "people with mental illness are dangerous and shouldn't fly planes!", or "ATP is too stressful and causes suicides!"). These notions are not in line with the current science of mental illness. Which brings me to my next comment...
Second, even though this particular freak event maybe still would have happened if the FAA had a reasonable approach to mental health care, the FAA still needs this reform, and it needs it badly. There are many common and treatable conditions that fall under Mental Health, but just 2 for example: ADHD (Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder) and MDD (Major Depressive Disorder). Both of these conditions impair cognition and attention (in very different ways) and both have treatments that are safe and result in the person being not only safe to fly an airplane, but safer flying than in an untreated state. Psychiatric medications are some of the safest medications we use today in medicine, and with some rare exceptions, are completely compatible with safely flying an airplane. There are of course more rare cases where someone has a mental illness which would preclude the safely of flight, and we need to have some sort of process to screen for this, but what is unacceptable is the fact that the current process feels more like an intentional barrier the FAA puts up in order to discriminate against people with mental illness and their treatments.
The fact that anyone thinks they can prevent psychiatric emergencies is borderline ridiculous. A significant number of suicides occur in people who have no history or verbalization of SI. Nothing the FAA does, or anyone else for that matter, could have stopped the Seattle Horizon employee from stealing that Dash 8 and intentionally crashing. Awareness is great, as is open dialogue. But we all know that just because someone receives psychiatric services it doesn’t mean they’ll stop fantasizing about suicide or homicide. Drugs don’t alter a mindset. I agree the FAA should be more open to rather simple diagnostic issues, but no one should expect miracles from mental health treatment either. Btw, you forget one rather important factor for suicide - genetics. I’m sure my comment will be removed, as it was from VAS aviation. Being realistic about MH is often frowned upon
i am no psychiatrist .. but i think .. it doesnt matter if someone makes a suicid by plane or Car .. or any other way .. .. i think that there is no chance to diagnose an suicid beforehand in every case ... it is more like an Vulcan erruption .. if you have time to monitore someone over time .. then maybe .. but only maybe You can collect data wich can help to diagnose a chance to maybe .... but not in a way that You can say ok this will happen to 100% at .... so commercial Pilots wich have to go to medikal screenings in regular timeslots .. maybe .. but an Student wich applies to a scool ... wich will make a suicid out of ..maybe an event in his privat live ... i think its very uncommen that this will be detected before it really happend ...
I'm sorry about your mother and your friend. I know and love someone who cimpleted suicide after multiple attempts. He was in his 60s and had gone completely blind and couldn't really walk any longer. The love remains ❤❤@@roytoy
As a pilot who was born and grown up in communistic socium 😃 I can suspect 2 reasons of suicidal tendentions: natural one (physical problems of a brain) and social (too mach goverment activities in peoples fatum).
If someone wants to be gone, there’s nothing you can really do to change there mind
I recently attended ATP Flight School for their Instrument to Commercial program. I wasn't ready after extending my schedule out for a little extra training, so I got dropped. I felt confident after receiving my PPL that I would be ready for the program, but I was wrong, and I'm glad I am out of there.
Firstly, to get this out of the way; ATP won't be for everyone, but that's not to say it's a good school. If I were to use one word to describe ATP, it would have to be "Hollow". Obviously Aviation takes passion, that much is evident by the amount of time and money it takes to actually progress in any meaningful way. But the issue with ATP is that it's strictly a means of flying as a career, and not as a vehicle for the passion that many aviators come to associate with flying.
I can say with certainty that studying for my PPL was difficult, but I loved doing it because it never felt like work. Flying at ATP is a job, but not a job that sets you up for success.
Its pipeline represents a larger problem with aviation in microcosm, and that's instructing.
Obviously it's the luck of draw, if you get an instructor that genuinely has your best interests in mind, or an instructor that is only there to build hours, it could have a vast impact on your training. But, for my money (literally) the nature of the beast means you're far, FAR more likely to get an instructor who's just there to build hours for the airlines. Aviation has this issue that people who should have no business being teachers are the ones who end up teaching.
I won't deny that ATP can and has worked for people in the past, but there's a level of implied aviation acumen that you must possess, and you have to get lucky with your instructor because changing one means delaying your training and costing you even more money.
To their credit, the planes are nice and you'll never be put out on the schedule. That's unfortunately all the nice things I have to say about it. It's corporate flight school with all the baggage it comes with.
I'm sure I'd have more to say but UA-cam's comment section probably isn't the place for it.
Furthermore, the cost is robbery. Easily double or triple what it could cost you without taking out a loan.
"Remember, It's never that bad" is so aggravating to hear from someone. Especially someone who obviously doesn't understand depression. Such a simple statement. Gee, why didn't I think about it and cure myself? We KNOW it's not that bad. But for some it damn sure feels like it.
I know the statement comes from good intentions, but it is aggravating to hear people say this.
Being a young guy in today's economy... I can understand he might have felt hopeless. Very sad to lose anyone, way too many GA losses recently.
Thanks Joe Biden.
@@marsstarlink3235 Yup... That's the issue. Vote accordingly.
@@marsstarlink3235 trump ran it into the ground. biden just inherited his problem
True
@@marsstarlink3235Thank capitalism. Has nothing to do with the muppets we put in the WH. This was still expensive with the other idiot we had in there.
I was a former ATP student. The way ATP does things is problematic at times. Treat their CFIs poorly financially, so then the CFIs don't really provide the top notch training that you would expect from a flight school like ATP. RIP, blue skies and tailwinds my friend.
lmao. 😂😂. Dude, atp kicked me out after I got my private pilot flawlessly because I said I didn't know if I want to go to airlines. Best decision ever. They tried to charge me $50k just for private. Me and my lawyer put a stop to that and I got 110 hours for $20,000. Then I contacted the loan agency and explained the whole atp 7 month zero to hero scam and now they canceled my loan. I'm paying cash now at a much better relaxed and cheaper school that has career instructors. At ATP you can't even solo after private or fly night. My last 25 hours have been solo and mostly at night and sometimes with passengers building time for instrument xc Pic and night vfr Pic time. And it's far cheaper. At ATP you have to fly everything with an incompotent time builder mid life crisis office worker "career" switcher who "wants to do something different and travel for a job". These broke losers only care about getting into aviation for money and travel. They never had a passion for it and only got into atp because it promises it will get them there "fast" 😂(no it won't the 7 month promise is a lie the average is like 1.5 years that's why I'm hitting atp with a huge class action that has over 1000 representatives in it right now) and offer them free travel. Selfish loser time builders like this can't instruct. They couldn't even answer half the questions because they were incompotent. And why pay $350/hr and fly with an instructor after private when you don't need to like I am? By the time I get my cfi soon my ENTIRE cost from zero to CFI will be $30,000, and since I have my own business and make $15,000 a month, that's no problem. I should have researched before I went to atp but I'm glad I did because with my lawyers help my ride at ATP was completely free lmfao. Feel so bad for you fkers who will end up paying $300,000 by the time the loan is paid off, and all to go to a chit school filled with a bunch of losers with no life experience who don't care for aviation and see being a pilot as just another job and all they see is the money and the free travel. Dangerous people to have in an airline cockpit during an emergency. Selfish people will do everything to save themselves even if it means everyone in the back gets killed. Atp is trash. I'm having fun flying finally when I never did at ATP. I schedule my own time an hour or 10 min before I want to fly, go to the airport, punch in the gate code, grab the keys, and go fly myself or with friends. Atp doesn't even let private pilots solo. I never met one loser at ATP who got a private or was an instructor that EVER ONCE flew for fun solo or with passengers. Many private pilots say they're "scared" to do so and the rest can't afford it. Pathetic broke fuks go back to the fkn office, don't come into aviation if you only see it as a career and a selfish way for you to travel free or make money.
Not only that. Atp leaves the plane keys IN THE PLANE with the door open. Do you know why? They WANT their planes stolen so they get paid insurance money and make money off it. Even with this suicide I GUARANTEE YOU the policy of leaving the keys in the plane has not changed
Former ATP student here and I started out credit PPL, ATP is the saddest excuse for flight training. Not only do the students hate it, the instructor’s do to. I got to CFI academy down in GKY and on orientation day they told us “we’re not here to help you” put 10 of us in a room and said figure it out, I left the next day and it was the best decision of my life. All you are is a number and management is basically non existent.
I tried to go there in 2013 and man they really stuck it to me. I was out sick with double pneumonia and the VP called me at my house and kicked me out of school over the phone . I was signed for 80 thousand dollars in student loans .
Holy crap, were you with me in that room too? I have the same exact story. 2019.
@@avproductions5184 I was there in 2023, apparently nothing has changed lol
darn, we would be curious if there is more cases like this out there. I'm sure there is a lot of pressure coming from the airlines being applied to ATP schools as well.
I started ATP with zero hours at their KCOS location in September 2022. It had become the norm to be behind ATP's advertised time schedule by multiple months or and well over budget. The COS location lacked the proper amount of aircraft to accommodate the amount of students enrolled at that location as well as a lack of space in the training center itself . That paired with the lack of DPE availability and the often enclimate weather left me at 11 months total in the supposed 7 month program and $15,000 over my original $115,000 budget. I decided to skip CFI, and go directly to Comm Multi, then bow out, which was probably the best decision I could have made. Throughout my training, I definitely felt pressured to perform, so much so, I decided to take a break before Comm Multi to relax and recover from the emotional rollercoaster I had been on since the beginning of my training. ATP is not for the faint of heart. If you attend, be prepared for many months of setbacks that will test your patience, mind, body, and bank account. I had to deal with ATP Corporate's less than stellar customer service quite a few times; whether it was the financial department, safety department, or program planning department. Although I was fortunate to have helpful, knowledgeable, and friendly instructors that helped me every step of the way, not everyone gets so lucky. Some of my fellow students were worse off than I was: further over budget and/or further behind. I had a roommate that got screwed so badly, it took them almost 4 months to complete their private stage when the advertised time is not more than 1 month. All this to say: ATP is far from the best option for a fast track flight school due to its lack of good customer service, lack of equipment for the amount of students, and lack of associated DPEs. I have since decided to train for my CFI certification at Blue Line Aviation which seems to be a very good alternative to ATP in almost every way.
I attended ATP Flight School at KCRG in the 2000s doing the Career Track program (First time realizing they use that call sign. We used the tail number back then).
I can personally say from my experience it was stressful especially at KCRG which is near ATP HQ. My dream was to become an airline pilot having work at a regional on the ground handling side for a couple of years.
I made it from Student Pilot to CMEL and was told to leave after I failed my CMEL oral twice. After the second failure I had a nervous breakdown and was definitely not in the right state of mind after that.
Not sure how much has changed, but from my experience 75% of the CFIs at the time were just horrible instructors who were too focused on building time so they can get to the airlines. In a way I don’t blame them but it certainly rubbed me wrong at the time. I also had an instructor who was notorious of showing up to our flight lessons hours late because they had been partying the night prior.
They rushed you to do your checkrides and the DPE the school had available was not pleasant. I’m also convinced the DPE assigned to my IRA checkride was purposefully done because he was known to be more lenient.
I’m not saying I was the best student and there are a lot of things I could’ve done better at the time. Plenty of students went through ATP and successfully made it to the airlines. For some such as myself it just wasn’t the best fit. It’s a pilot mill and I wasn’t suited for that sort of training. In hindsight, I should’ve gone the FBO route. The marketing at the time was very powerful and it was relatively “cheaper” at the time than say Delta Connection Academy.
After ATP, I did some flying at my home airport, took friends and family up. I went for my CSEL but failed the flight portion. The damage to my self confidence was done and I decided to hang it up. I’m thankful for the experience and knowledge. It certainly brought me to where I am today in the airline industry albeit a non flying career.
I’m not sure what this guy was going through. But the stress of training could’ve been a catalyst. The stress of the fast paced training and mountain of debt I took on at the time certainly contributed to my anxiety during training. I grieve for him and his loved ones and if I wasn’t in the right state of mind at the time, it’s entirely possible I could’ve taken this dark path.
Thanks for telling your story. Aviation is a very demanding and stressful industry and some of us just aren't built for it. Its important in what ever you choose to do, to enjoy the ride, and make adjustments along the way to make your self smile. We can only discuss our story and attempt to relate to someone who's going through the same thing.
I talked with an instructor that went to ATP and he said that they want you there everyday even when not flying. He also said it takes up so much time that you can’t even work when going there. It sounds like ATP can make students easily depressed.
lmao. 😂. Dude, atp kicked me out after I got my private pilot flawlessly because I said I didn't know if I want to go to airlines. Best decision ever. They tried to charge me $50k just for private. Me and my lawyer put a stop to that and I got 110 hours for $20,000. Then I contacted the loan agency and explained the whole atp 7 month zero to hero scam and now they canceled my loan. I'm paying cash now at a much better relaxed and cheaper school that has career instructors. At ATP you can't even solo after private or fly night. My last 25 hours have been solo and mostly at night and sometimes with passengers building time for instrument xc Pic and night vfr Pic time. And it's far cheaper. At ATP you have to fly everything with an incompotent time builder mid life crisis office worker "career" switcher who "wants to do something different and travel for a job". These broke losers only care about getting into aviation for money and travel. They never had a passion for it and only got into atp because it promises it will get them there "fast" 😂(no it won't the 7 month promise is a lie the average is like 1.5 years that's why I'm hitting atp with a huge class action that has over 1000 representatives in it right now) and offer them free travel. Selfish loser time builders like this can't instruct. They couldn't even answer half the questions because they were incompotent. And why pay $350/hr and fly with an instructor after private when you don't need to like I am? By the time I get my cfi soon my ENTIRE cost from zero to CFI will be $30,000, and since I have my own business and make $15,000 a month, that's no problem. I should have researched before I went to atp but I'm glad I did because with my lawyers help my ride at ATP was completely free lmfao. Feel so bad for you fkers who will end up paying $300,000 by the time the loan is paid off, and all to go to a chit school filled with a bunch of losers with no life experience who don't care for aviation and see being a pilot as just another job and all they see is the money and the free travel. Dangerous people to have in an airline cockpit during an emergency. Selfish people will do everything to save themselves even if it means everyone in the back gets killed. Atp is trash. I'm having fun flying finally when I never did at ATP. I schedule my own time an hour or 10 min before I want to fly, go to the airport, punch in the gate code, grab the keys, and go fly myself or with friends. Atp doesn't even let private pilots solo. I never met one loser at ATP who got a private or was an instructor that EVER ONCE flew for fun solo or with passengers. Many private pilots say they're "scared" to do so and the rest can't afford it. Pathetic broke fuks go back to the fkn office, don't come into aviation if you only see it as a career and a selfish way for you to travel free or make money.
What the heck??.......I am at a loss for words right now.......I have been flying for forty years and I cant imagine what's going on here..Deepest condolences to the family...
Confidently spitting out "we don't believe in mental health days" while spending a video asking what could possibly be done is as tonedeaf as it is tragic.
That along with other statements in this video clearly show you have some work to do in truly understanding mental health, I sincerely hope this comment section encourages you to learn, understand, and empathize better with these issues
These were my thoughts exactly. What do you mean you “don’t believe in mental health days”? What about passing IMSAFE? Confused.
Agreed that was tone deaf AF.
We employ pilots, mechanics, construction workers, etc. All of these people perform critical safety sensitive functions. If they need a day off to prevent themselves from "cracking" or going crazy, and are that close to the "edge" we simply cannot risk the harm they could do to themselves or others. We'll offer a "mental health" six months off, or year off, or however long it takes to get their head straight, but anyone who is bouncing back and forth so often that they need a day here or there to be able to handle a normal work load or stress load I would not consider to be safe to have at work.
I would encourage you to think about this less in terms of extremes like "being on the edge" and more in terms of why something like IMSAFE is taught - external and incidental factors can be as common as they are unpredictable or uncontrollable - it's part of being human.
If we are truly taking something like IMSAFE seriously, would you want persons responsible for such important safety procedures working on the day of a sudden personal tragedy or a day after getting no sleep or would you like them to be working at their best? Those are mutually exclusive - and are why the pneumonic exists.
Those breaking points and "being on the edge" are often caused or exacerbated by rigid expectancies that cause repression build-up rather than resolution. Nuturing a better mental health atmosphere comes with the direct benefit of better effort and better performance.
Your videos and products are such wonderful resources. Thank you for opening the floor for discussion on this video and for your time reading and responding
@@fly8ma.comflighttraining199
No disrespect but you are directly contributing to the problem then. A day off here or there isnt to "stop you from cracking". Most people request these long before they crack. Its not having any relief whatsoever that is the issue that festers and leads to bad outcomes.
6 months of unpaid time off (I assume) is essentially what every pilot complains about with the FAA. You were sad once and needed a little time? Screw you You're grounded for an unacceptable amount of time and it will cost you thousands to get sorted.
Consistent mental health problems are one thing. It is another thing entirely to act like needing mental health maintenance is inherently unsafe. That is some old-head nonsense that needs to die. It's like if you said a plane was inherently unsafe because it needs regular maintenance. No that's a part of the deal. Some planes need more maintenance than others. Some planes are more annoying to get that maintenance done on. Neither of these facts makes the plane inherently unsafe. By ignoring maintenance you increase the risk for catastrophic incidents. This goes for literally everything and everyone in your life. You possess an archaic view of mental health. I hope that changes@@fly8ma.comflighttraining199
I really feel for controllers. The shit they sometimes have to deal with… there’s no way they don’t get PTSD from these situations. Yet they almost always maintain such great professionalism during these moments.
Currently enrolled in ATP. Been here for 6 months now coming in with private. I should’ve been done in 5 months and I admit there’s setbacks due to sickness, weather, and how much work you put in. Despite that it’s still rare to finish in their quoted time of 5 months for private and 7 months zero time. It’s rough right now and morale is low. Not happy with my instructor but it’s too quick to switch instructors in some stages. It really is what you make of it and how you roll with everything
You are wise, this attitude will serve you well for the rest of your life. It seems most people do not understand the power of our own mind/perspective/attitude. Things in life ARE going to suck at times, how you deal and roll, and what YOU make of it, matters most. We will never fix everything and make life perfect for everyone - no such thing.
and currently paying a $300k loan after interest 😂😂. I'm glad atp kicked me out, and for the dumbest reason. After I got my private pilot easily they said since I'm not going into thr airlines the program isn't for me. They did that so they can skim money off me and charge me $50,000. My lawyer and I put a stop to that so i got 110 hours for $20k. Then I managed to get the loan company to cancel the $20k loan because I know how to write them in a way to get it to happen. Now I go to a much better school with career instructors. I can schedule myself at any time like 30 min before a flight and go to the school at night, open the gate with the code, grab the keys, and go build night xc Pic hours with friends at less than HALF the cost at ATP, and without an instructor whereas at ATP you will never fly solo except during private and never at night except at private. My total cost from zero to CFI will be $30,000 or less by the time I'm done, and I have my own business that makes around $200k a year. I'm chilling. I feel so bad for fkers at ATP. They only got into aviation because they wanted free travel and more money not because they care about being a pilot. And the only way they could become a pilot is by getting a fkn loan, it's hilarious to think you owe over $300k by the time you pay it off, TEN TIMES more than what it will cost me. Sorry dude.. PS. I'm currently the one responsible for a class action against ATP. We have over 1000 representatives who are former ATP victims. If you want in reply back to me. They are all about false advertising and corrupt business practice. They also leave the keys IN THE PLANE with doors open because they WANT their planes stolen so they make money through insurance. GUARANTEE YOU this accident hasn't changed the keys policy because they want to make money from people who steal and crash their planes.
On the topic of depression and mental health:
Resignation is a hazardous attitude that extends far beyond the cockpit. We all learned the rote "Never give up, keep flying til that plane stops moving" - but how does that help us at home? Honestly, it can. When you park that plane, keep fighting til it all stops moving. Ask for help. Ask for company. Ask for whatever it is you *need*. (Even if it's a mental health day)
Never, ever treat yourself in such a way that you wouldn't accept from someone else.
Bring yourself up, as you expect yourself to bring the people around you up.
These things are skills! You won't do them automatically, you'll have to practice, and you'll make mistakes. It's just like flight training - you're not just learning how to deal with the good days, you need to train for the bad ones. Go out, screw up in controlled conditions, learn and do better. Keep fighting.
On the topic of the FAA's archaic stance on mental health, and ATP being a stressful environment:
Both ATP and the FAA certainly have issues.
ATP is a place where someone in a fragile state is pretty much guaranteed to deteriorate further. That's the short version.
Being an "entry level" pilot, having nearly 100k and years of my life sunk into transitioning into this industry, and seeing how indifferent the FAA is to pilots, how hostile the industry is to entry level pilots, and how both groups seem hell-bent on (poorly) automating aircraft to save costs? That weighs on me. I find it easy to assume some of that weight was on this poor kid.
ATP pushes 60%+ of their students out the door for failing to learn their syllabus with unrealistic goals. When I was there, watching better, more intelligent, more capable and more driven pilots than me flunk out for missing goals on two flights? That weighed on me.
ATP had no means of addressing any issues with the company. You can, in theory, ask HQ for time off if you're unwell, have personal issues, whatever. Nobody knew who to ask when I attended. People that took time off were dismissed, and if they were lucky given partial refunds. Especially when my mom had a heart attack, and there was this whole pandemic that we weren't sure at the time was going to end the world. ATP stopped flying because the tower stopped servicing them, not by their own choice. Did we get ground time? Sim time? Virtual classrooms? Nope! The instructors all spent 4 months piss drunk in their dorms. That weighed on me.
ATP is socially, a very childish machismo environment. People with A Group find success, people without don't. If you don't have A Group? You don't have anyone. You study alone, you sim alone, you socialize alone. Not meeting that social quota in Maslow's Hierarchy? Fast Track right to depression. Really, trying to educate yourself at a high level without *all* of those needs met will lead straight to a depression.
ATP buys out the cessna and archer factory lines year over year, they wreck planes on a weekly basis.
Some individuals may miss this poor kid, but ATP sure won't. Won't miss the plane either. They won't change.
The FAA won't miss this kid, they want lawyers - not pilots. If we get lucky, they won't use this as another excuse to push automated aircraft on the claim that pilots are the sole safety problem in aviation. (I don't want to say more, because I struggle to draw the line between practical and politics here)
We are not infallible objects. Airplanes get annuals and hundred hour inspections, but if a pilot seeks preventative care they're not fit for flight. This must change. Imagine if you had to hide your engine logbooks simply because you insisted on checking your compressions. That's the FAA's present stance on mental health.
Better minds and voices than mine have spoken on the FAA and their slow, slow progress in leaving the 1960's behind. The entire concept of mental health, as well as awareness and treatment of it, has actually been recorded and defined - and continues to do so. When the FAA set their overall standard on mental health, psychology was barely a medical field, and was based off of models that have long been debunked. The FAA's stance on depression is closer to handwavey witchdoctor nonsense than modern medicine. They are absolutely making improvements for mental health though, and I am watching them closely. Sometimes I'm even excited! We're living in exciting times.
I personally wish that there was a medical form of the NASA Safety reporting form - where pilots can anonymously report any health issues, and be referred to appropriate assets to address them - or where pilots can report erratic behavior and be offered information on how to address it before it snowballs.
When you're in that zone, it's nearly impossible to realise that it's only temporary. If you're on your own, in the air, without anyone to talk to, there's only one way it's going to end. Platitudes to his friends and family will mean very little to them at this time as they will probably blame themselves.
You can't often spot the signs, but if you do, reach out, gently. Let them know that you're there whenever, wherever and will never judge them. Please don't ask how I know. 💔
I fully agree, let them know that you are there. There is no way for FAA or flight school or whomever to prevent that situation. I think the only thing ATC can do is to reach out to the pilot. Every minute, again and again. Saying very calmly that you are listening and that you will repeat this call. And if possible, use the pilots first name when calling. No call sign of aircraft.
This is gonna sound heartless.
Unfortunately, 100k at 15% interest isn't really a 'temporary' problem.
I recently went through the flight school pipeline, and I'm honestly surprised I don't hear about incidents like this more often. Rhetorically: What happens when you combine kids who get out of college, can't find a job, decide to fly, and fail out of that (or look like they're going to) while accruing 150k in debt with a medical system that punishes you / prevents you from flying if you're already having problems, or report past problems?
There's been a lot of effort put into getting people who don't really love flying into cockpits. This has already lead to, and is going to lead to a lot more of, people being utterly ruined financially if they wash out of the system.
@@drdorenton1060 Very good and honest take there, Drdorenton.
@@drdorenton1060 By temporary I mean the state of mind at that moment in time. That, to me, is the most important thing.
As a non-pilot, but is aware of the stress that occurs in the industry from training to tenure, this is an incredibly fast evolving environment. I appreciate hearing about others taking the time to consider the mental health implications of what it takes to maintain air travel. It’s important to set realistic expectations to maintain a sustainable and healthy balance on the rocket ship of growth in flying. Thank you for helping protect the dangers.
It was a tragic event but you are right. I am glad you found the video informative.
I went to ATP and left after my commercials. Did not want to continue after my commercials and got my CFI locally. I can understand where this guy is coming from mentally. Im normally a happy person but when I was there I was miserable. Never had issues with mental health before atp. My mental health was not good and the only thing that kept me going was God. If I didn't have God....idk what I would've done. I dont recommend that school to anyone. You are nothing but a number and they just want you to move forward to take your money. They make you take your check ride whether you are ready or not. They teach you to pass check rides and not become a great safe pilot which was my main reason why I left.
Aviation certainly is certainly not alone in that money grab for fast paced, get you moving or else type of training. But other than a medical profession, it sure seems the most dangerous "career" training plan. This was a young man, perhaps fell for the marketing like so many chasing dreams. Makes you wonder if on your next flight, exactly WHO is your pilot. I know I question the skills of every physician I have ever been to.
Sadly, people will forever try to figure out what got him to this point. It is on a continuous loop for his family and friends. I pray for healing for them, but that is asking for a lot.
and currently paying a $300k loan after interest 😂😂. I'm glad atp kicked me out, and for the dumbest reason. After I got my private pilot easily they said since I'm not going into thr airlines the program isn't for me. They did that so they can skim money off me and charge me $50,000. My lawyer and I put a stop to that so i got 110 hours for $20k. Then I managed to get the loan company to cancel the $20k loan because I know how to write them in a way to get it to happen. Now I go to a much better school with career instructors. I can schedule myself at any time like 30 min before a flight and go to the school at night, open the gate with the code, grab the keys, and go build night xc Pic hours with friends at less than HALF the cost at ATP, and without an instructor whereas at ATP you will never fly solo except during private and never at night except at private. My total cost from zero to CFI will be $30,000 or less by the time I'm done, and I have my own business that makes around $200k a year. I'm chilling. I feel so bad for fkers at ATP. They only got into aviation because they wanted free travel and more money not because they care about being a pilot. And the only way they could become a pilot is by getting a fkn loan, it's hilarious to think you owe over $300k by the time you pay it off, TEN TIMES more than what it will cost me. Sorry dude.. PS. I'm currently the one responsible for a class action against ATP. We have over 1000 representatives who are former ATP victims. If you want in reply back to me. They are all about false advertising and corrupt business practice. They also leave the keys IN THE PLANE with doors open because they WANT their planes stolen so they make money through insurance. GUARANTEE YOU this accident hasn't changed the keys policy because they want to make money from people who steal and crash their planes.
ATP is very stressful place to be. They will discontinue you over the least mistake. You are not a student and it’s not a school. You are just a product on the assembly line. Before I switched schools I thought all flight schools are as unfriendly. I’m not saying ATP lead to that, but if you have suicidal thoughts I don’t really think going to ATP will help you back up from them. The only good thing they have is their online portal it’s called student extranet. There is no screening process they just want to make sure your schedule can be free 7 days a week, just like any fast track program. Not even one question about anything else.
I feel bad for the people they kicked out when they were almost done. Such a waste of money.
@@PilotCristinaand currently paying a $300k loan after interest 😂😂. I'm glad atp kicked me out, and for the dumbest reason. After I got my private pilot easily they said since I'm not going into thr airlines the program isn't for me. They did that so they can skim money off me and charge me $50,000. My lawyer and I put a stop to that so i got 110 hours for $20k. Then I managed to get the loan company to cancel the $20k loan because I know how to write them in a way to get it to happen. Now I go to a much better school with career instructors. I can schedule myself at any time like 30 min before a flight and go to the school at night, open the gate with the code, grab the keys, and go build night xc Pic hours with friends at less than HALF the cost at ATP, and without an instructor whereas at ATP you will never fly solo except during private and never at night except at private. My total cost from zero to CFI will be $30,000 or less by the time I'm done, and I have my own business that makes around $200k a year. I'm chilling. I feel so bad for fkers at ATP. They only got into aviation because they wanted free travel and more money not because they care about being a pilot. And the only way they could become a pilot is by getting a fkn loan, it's hilarious to think you owe over $300k by the time you pay it off, TEN TIMES more than what it will cost me. Sorry dude.. PS. I'm currently the one responsible for a class action against ATP. We have over 1000 representatives who are former ATP victims. If you want in reply back to me. They are all about false advertising and corrupt business practice. They also leave the keys IN THE PLANE with doors open because they WANT their planes stolen so they make money through insurance. GUARANTEE YOU this accident hasn't changed the keys policy because they want to make money from people who steal and crash their planes.
Oh and for the people they kicked out, class action is happening because of me. Reply to me if you want in
I appreciate you making this video.
I instructed for ATP last year (not going to say which location) and had to deal with a student who was mentally unstable and acted out in the plane multiple times. ATP management did nothing about it. I work at a local flight school now that actually cares about my well-being.
How can you make an entire video about mental health in aviation and then say that you don’t believe in taking mental days?! Not a good look
Right! That might have been just what this guy needed, and maybe those idiots “didn't believe in mental health days” either. In EMS, at least all the departments in my area have your normal sick and PTO days, but we also get mental health days as well.
I have had respect for what your company has achieved....
Tho you are way off here... .
Click-bait much
Smh
Seeing a lot of negative comments about ATP but I don’t think this has anything to do with ATP’s school. This seems like a man who was struggling and could have really used some help outside of flight training. I didn’t train at ATP but I’ve worked a lot with ATP and I have been very impressed. It’s a difficult program that is certainly not for everyone but it does provide the best path to airlines, if it’s a good fit for you. I trained at a university, and my friends that started at ATP at the same time as me have now been flying at the regional airlines for years, some are even at the major airlines now. Whereas my graduating class is just barely getting to the regionals. The proof is in the pudding. You have to treat it like an academy or high level university and make sure it’s a great fit for you. If it’s not, you have to go find somewhere that does fit your needs. The key is to find the right flight school for you and your learning style. Those that I have known that have gone through ATP have finished in about 9-12 months but even that is still significantly faster than almost any other program, even if it’s longer than their program is designed.
I’m currently attending ATP and have zero complaints
As a former ATP Student (I have since transferred to another flight school after completing my PPL), I can confidently say that their program is pretty rigorous and challenging. They push you probably harder than they should when it comes to this stuff. A friend of mine describes ATP pretty well, “ATP trains their students to pass a checkride, not to be a better pilot”. They care greatly about knowledge and skill, but they trim off just about everything else. Somebody else said in the comments that they and their instructor felt like just a number, I 100% agree with that. I joined ATP with 2.3 solo XC hours remaining before I was eligible to take my checkride. They sent me back to the beginning of their program and squeezed over $15k out of me over 4 months just so I could finish it. It would have been longer if I didn’t complain as much to the higher ups. The idea of ATP is great, and clear, I think they’ve begun to abuse it to the point where it has impacted the mental health of its students.
I'm glad atp kicked me out, and for the dumbest reason. After I got my private pilot easily they said since I'm not going into thr airlines the program isn't for me. They did that so they can skim money off me and charge me $50,000. My lawyer and I put a stop to that so i got 110 hours for $20k. Then I managed to get the loan company to cancel the $20k loan because I know how to write them in a way to get it to happen. Now I go to a much better school with career instructors. I can schedule myself at any time like 30 min before a flight and go to the school at night, open the gate with the code, grab the keys, and go build night xc Pic hours with friends at less than HALF the cost at ATP, and without an instructor whereas at ATP you will never fly solo except during private and never at night except at private. My total cost from zero to CFI will be $30,000 or less by the time I'm done, and I have my own business that makes around $200k a year. I'm chilling. I feel so bad for fkers at ATP. They only got into aviation because they wanted free travel and more money not because they care about being a pilot. And the only way they could become a pilot is by getting a fkn loan, it's hilarious to think you owe over $300k by the time you pay it off, TEN TIMES more than what it will cost me. Sorry dude.. PS. I'm currently the one responsible for a class action against ATP. We have over 1000 representatives who are former ATP victims. If you want in reply back to me. They are all about false advertising and corrupt business practice. They also leave the keys IN THE PLANE with doors open because they WANT their planes stolen so they make money through insurance. GUARANTEE YOU this accident hasn't changed the keys policy because they want to make money from people who steal and crash their planes.
I’m so sorry to hear about this young person taking his life. I offer my condolences to his family. This is tragic. If anyone in the airline/aviation community needs confidential help, please reach out to me.
Imagine going through tough times and can't get the help you need in fear of getting your medical and pretty much your whole career taken away. Even external factors aside, flight school itself is stressful and can be mentally taxing. We are in the 21st century, we've learnt a lot more about mental health and how therapy helps, yet you can't in fear of losing everything you've worked so hard for along with the massive upfront costs to even get there. Wake up call for the FAA
I don’t want to speculate, but I’m going to anyways. My guess is that he took out a 100k loan for ATP and realized that either ATP flight school was too hard because of the fast pace, or he didn’t want to become a professional pilot anymore. Either way, it’s very sad. Rest in peace.
Though rare, yea, things really can be that bad.
Also, it is extremely harmful to tell a suicidal person "Things can't be that bad."
You are belittling and trivializing their issues. This is exactly the opposite of what you should be doing.
Trust me, I know for a fact that things *CAN* and sometimes are that bad. And they are not always temporary.
I went to ATP but its been 12 years. A lots changed since then. The general vibe of aviation was also different back then as well.
ATP flight schools is 100% to blame for this.
Following a recent tragic incident involving a student from ATP Flight School, I feel compelled to share my experience. In January 2023, I enrolled at ATP Flight School. Regrettably, my training experience fell short. The pay structure for instructors resulted in excessive costs for simulated and flight hours, leading to a substantial financial burden within just a month and a half. Despite raising my concerns to the lead flight instructor and ATP headquarters about the inadequate training provided, I found it necessary to seek education elsewhere. I successfully completed the remaining six certificates within 8 months without any setbacks. For prospective students and parents, I strongly advise against choosing that institution for any type of training.
Did you want to kill yourself because of ATP? I don’t think blaming them like this is fair. They can be shitty but this was not a normal reaction to adversity.
Good job. I'm happy for you. I'm glad atp kicked me out, and for the dumbest reason. After I got my private pilot easily they said since I'm not going into thr airlines the program isn't for me. They did that so they can skim money off me and charge me $50,000. My lawyer and I put a stop to that so i got 110 hours for $20k. Then I managed to get the loan company to cancel the $20k loan because I know how to write them in a way to get it to happen. Now I go to a much better school with career instructors. I can schedule myself at any time like 30 min before a flight and go to the school at night, open the gate with the code, grab the keys, and go build night xc Pic hours with friends at less than HALF the cost at ATP, and without an instructor whereas at ATP you will never fly solo except during private and never at night except at private. My total cost from zero to CFI will be $30,000 or less by the time I'm done, and I have my own business that makes around $200k a year. I'm chilling. I feel so bad for fkers at ATP. They only got into aviation because they wanted free travel and more money not because they care about being a pilot. And the only way they could become a pilot is by getting a fkn loan, it's hilarious to think they will owe over $300k by the time they pay it off, TEN TIMES more than what it will cost me. PS. I'm currently the one responsible for a class action against ATP. We have over 1000 representatives who are former ATP victims. If you want in reply back to me. They are all about false advertising and corrupt business practice. They also leave the keys IN THE PLANE with doors open because they WANT their planes stolen so they make money through insurance. GUARANTEE YOU this accident hasn't changed the keys policy because they want to make money from people who steal and crash their planes.
The same thing happened in’79 at Craig Field. He took the black and red Cherokee up to kill himself. That was our best plane at the school. RiPyoung man
Mental health is one of the biggest issues in the world as it has been stigmatized for centuries, drugs thrown at you and told to deal with it all while all your rights removed.
It's why people tend to not get help when needed, things fester until it snaps. The mental health industry needs to get better, govt needs to get better and society itself needs to get better and give people that light to get out of the black hole
FAA needs to change the regs. We all know how bad this problem is.. but nothing changes. I'd wager a majority of pilots, if not all pilots could benefit from some form of mental health assistance. The pressures of being a pilot, alone, are immense. Everyone experiences something tragic in their life at some point, on top of those pressures... losing a loved one for example.. pilots shouldn't have to fear losing their wings, by talking to a professional. Getting help could make us ALL better pilots and stronger people... This matter goes beyond just the FAA medical regulations. Its the fact that the least experienced pilots are the ones training the blind. Everyone is broke trying to get their hours and most instructors can care less about good, foundational, long lasting, proper training. My flight school wants to do all this ground training about aeronautical decision making, "IM SAFE," and then when push comes to shove, and you actually try to do the right thing, not flying for personal stress? They charge you. punish you. Whats that equal? more pressure, more stress, more burnout.. MORE RISK. The Aviation world is losing it's passion, losing sight. It's becoming more and more a business industry, that only cares about money. There's so much more this issue as well.. the whole system needs re-addressed. worlds gone to crap. 💔 prayers for the family.. This is tragic... I pray this fellow aviator is under God's wings now.. and that some real changes are made..
It's ATP flight school, this checks out.
Nothing needs changed. No regulation needs dreamt up, no additional exams need sought, nor does any additional fee need be made. A guy wanted to enjoy what he loved one last time and did so without harming others. The same could not be said if a road vehicle was used where other people are often injured. He flew until he could not anymore. The source/reason for that cause is outside of aviation for any number of reasons. When someone reaches that point its because they see no other way forward, simple as.
I think adding the “We don’t give mental health days here at Fly8MA. We don’t believe in them…” at the end is a little tone deaf considering you’re making a video about mental health. I’m not saying you’re not entitled to your own opinion, but damn dude, just seemed like an unnecessary comment. Not even saying I don’t agree with you, I just don’t think it needed to be part of the video.
Also, I found out about this video from a friend I actually suggested watch your videos. Normally a HUGE supporter of this channel. I’ve told as many people who will listen about the CFI oral exam videos
Went to ATP may-Oct 2022 they only let me do up to comm SE KLGB location . They tried to kick me out like 3 times only because I wasn’t improving as fast as ATP standards timeline . Got to complete Comm SE passed the first try . But forced to defer CFI and multi engine. Experience was stressful but only decent due to fellow students and certain instructors. From experience I would tell others to find other schools save their money. Only there 4 months got stuck with a 65 k loan. Flying out of Yokota aero club Japan getting my CFI-A .
So sad to hear. This was over by my home airport that I fly out of. I fly out of KHQZ and to see something like this happen near my area is a good eye-opener.
I’m 24 years old I’ve known I had depression since I was 10 years old. Breaks my heart when I see someone my age or younger going through the same struggles and ending it.
I get it, I had years where I wanted to give up and I told myself if I did it would be some crazy thing like crashing a plane for example. I get it I just want to say to anyone with depression, your not alone it does get easier I won’t say better because for lack of a better term we’re always gonna feel a little sad when we should be happy. Depression is ugly but you’re not the only one you have a family who will miss you even something as simple as your family dog wondering why you come visit him any more. Sad as it sounds the thought of my dogs not knowing why I disappeared kept me around on some days.
This guy was doing better in life than me and still chose to end it. Stuff like that bothers me I know money doesn’t buy happiness but at 23 you have your entire life ahead of you, by the time you live another 23 years of it you’ll still have half your life to go. I just don’t get it and I promise everyone going through depression a good day will come eventually it might be slow as it can be but that day will come and make everything seem insignificant for a while
I’m not medicated either other than beer and marijuana. I’ve tried antidepressants and I’ve had success i just personally don’t want to rely on a pill to feel normal and other reasons. I just freeball my depression pretty much, I smoke weed when I wake up to feel silly and happy and psychedelics as needed to process my trauma. Antidepressants help, my mom is on them and they saved her life but for me I get more out of taking some mushrooms and realizing my dad wasn’t an asshole just going through some shit himself
I love that you have your Christmas tree up still. Me too.
Helps my mental health!
Not necessarily related to aviation but this could totally happen to a pilot:
Where I'm from, before you start a new job, they send you to a doctor to make sure you're able to do that job. A guy that I knew had finally finished his classes to become a bus driver and just before he could start, they sent him to that doctor but the doctor didn't give him the needed approval. It took him a while but he finally found out why. Many years ago, he felt depressed and had suicidal thoughts. Before doing anything stupid, he sought help and spent some time in a psychiatric hospital. What he didn't know was that this would be written in his medical records and stay there forever and the doctors who check you before you start a new job have access to these records. For some reason, even after years, this doctor thought that he would be a threat as a bus driver and declared him as unable to be responsible for other people.
On one hand, if you're going to be responsible for other people, it's important to make sure that you're not a threat to their security. On the other hand, if you know about this, even if you would benefit from medical help, you would never seek help because you don't want to be labeled as someone with mental health issues and have this label follow you forever, wherever you go. I don't have a solution but this is a problem.
Suicide is sad whether it happens on an airplane, car, hotel.. etc. Increasing restrictions on anything, just creates more reasons to limit or impede people, which creates more depression. It's a circle. I believe the key, is to teach kids to deal with disappointment at a young age. Happy people don't commit suicide. So, it may be better to instead reduce general restrictions across the board (meaning in non-aviation areas as well) while simultaneously increase safety through improved technology. And remember, cost-prohibitivity is just another form of restriction.
Hoping readers don't see this as a troll, but rather, my honest perspective on this topic. Be gentle, if you disagree.
You are very much correct!
I like how you cited a broader perspective of not just pilots, because limiting and restrictions can make someone feel easily depressed.
Jon, I've been trying to get my medical for the last two years. I have been diagnosed with depression and anxiety in the past and the FAA has ordered me to travel through endless hoops. I've persisted however and the way the FAA approaches mental health is in desperate need of change. If a pilot reports, they have attended therapy (especially if they have been diagnosed by the person conducing that therapy) it can lead to a temporary loss of their medical. Rarely are pilots "final denied" as this often happens in extreme cases with Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenia or severe suicidality. Pilots should be able to take common anti-depressants and attend therapy without being deferred. Hopefully in the future, AME's will be able to issue in the case of mild and moderate mental health disorders. The FAA's current system creates an urgent safety issue in my opinion.
I took psychology in highschool, it was pretty basic, but it gave me a decent understanding of metal illness and how to spot it in yourself and others, I think if all pilots had that basic understanding we could spot it in our fellow pilots easier and also we would be able to help each other, even something simple like talking about a problem and things like making a plan make a huge differece! I think pilots can help each other out, I think the community is the best solution to the pilot mental health crisis we see today and that's party because the community has changed a lot over the past 10 years.
I went to ATP and finished the program mid July of 2022. I attended the KTUS location. I finished instrument to MEI in less than 7 months without failing any checkrides. I had great training and very few complaints about the program. For me ATP was very upfront in the fact that this a fast pace program and isn’t for everyone. They also made it clear that I should not work or go to any other school (college classes) during this time. Yes some days were long and tiring however it was very easy for me to have long days studying because I knew I was getting towards my goal of an airline pilot. I can’t speak for everyone but before for I started it was clear that a lot of effort was needed to complete this program. However they do not pay their instructors enough and that’s why I chose to instruct elsewhere.
Also I have been told ATP instructors make $20 an hour but only get paid for Hobbs time. They do not get paid for grounds. And they get $15 an hour for dual given Simulator time. ATPs maintenance and aircraft were superb.
It’s incredibly easy to ‘steal’ an ATP plane. They are all unlocked and have push button start. No keys required.
uh, no, all are not push button to start.
@@swiftadventurer oh yes they are, definitely in Texas. I went here.
@@sqwk2559 none of the planes at my location are push to start lol.
That’s a shame. May God Bless his soul.
ATP grad and former instructor. I overall had a decent experience, but I had a couple horrible instructors only focused on getting to the airlines and not sensitive to student issues or learning styles. I call the company the pilot puppy mill, as it produces a lot of decent looking pilots very fast, but the quality is very often lacking. I'm not perfect either, but I wish I had left before they laid me off in 2020 blaming Covid for dropping demand. Life got a lot better after moving to another FBO style school to instruct up to 1,500.
Sadly a story like this doesn't surprise me. I needed thick skin, and a more importantly, a very strong support system in friends and family to get through the program. A failure or two, with an insensitive culture and slim support network is a recipe for disaster.
and your currently paying a $300k loan after interest 😂😂. I'm glad atp kicked me out, and for the dumbest reason. After I got my private pilot easily they said since I'm not going into thr airlines the program isn't for me. They did that so they can skim money off me and charge me $50,000. My lawyer and I put a stop to that so i got 110 hours for $20k. Then I managed to get the loan company to cancel the $20k loan because I know how to write them in a way to get it to happen. Now I go to a much better school with career instructors. I can schedule myself at any time like 30 min before a flight and go to the school at night, open the gate with the code, grab the keys, and go build night xc Pic hours with friends at less than HALF the cost at ATP, and without an instructor whereas at ATP you will never fly solo except during private and never at night except at private. My total cost from zero to CFI will be $30,000 or less by the time I'm done, and I have my own business that makes around $200k a year. I'm chilling. I feel so bad for fkers at ATP. They only got into aviation because they wanted free travel and more money not because they care about being a pilot. And the only way they could become a pilot is by getting a fkn loan, it's hilarious to think you owe over $300k by the time you pay it off, TEN TIMES more than what it will cost me. Sorry dude.. PS. I'm currently the one responsible for a class action against ATP. We have over 1000 representatives who are former ATP victims. If you want in reply back to me. They are all about false advertising and corrupt business practice. They also leave the keys IN THE PLANE with doors open because they WANT their planes stolen so they make money through insurance. GUARANTEE YOU this accident hasn't changed the keys policy because they want to make money from people who steal and crash their planes.
I don't ever hear people talk about this, but I think the way civilian flight training is structured IMO fairly logically leads to suicidal ideation. If you're already fairly lost on what to do with your life, (23 just got out of college? didn't like his major / career prospects?), looking for a restart, only to find it once again isn't for you and/or you fail - -> except now you're 100k (at 15% interest or w/e they're charging now) debt... I can see why you'd want to do 'your last landing', doubly so if you got into flying w/o being successful elsewhere. If you have college debt, then fail out of flight school, frankly I don't know how people ever discharge that, especially at current interest rates.
As for ATP specifically -- Got my private at ATP... it's kind of a lotto based upon what instructor you get, which I feel is the case at a lot of flight schools where you have 0 dual given people building to ATP mins then leaving immediately. Think your experience will vary wildly depending on who you get assigned.
There is a huge problem with things like this that aren’t relegated to just aviation and aviation career fields. I have personal experience in the public service sector, being a firefighter/paramedic for several years, which has its own set of obvious on-the-job stressors that can contribute to suicide and suicidal ideations in even the most mentally fit of people. The problem is, you would lose your job if there was the tiniest incline of mental or emotional distress such as seeing a therapist or requiring anxiety medication even in the short term, and like the FAA, that mentality is everywhere so it’s not like you can just go and find another job. Most people need to keep their job, so they often will not seek help out of fear that their employer will find out and terminate them.
I would say most mental distressors people have are not due to legit psychological pathology. Most of the time, it’s people trying their best to cope with normal, everyday human experiences. Things like family or financial problems, the loss of a loved one, processing life-changing events, etc. Of course, this doesn’t include scenarios encountered on the job (especially for those in mentally-taxing career fields such as military or first responders). Suicidal thoughts or actions don’t just pop up out of nowhere. It’s usually a variation of these situations compounded over time, and the inability to productively work through them, that leads to thinking suicide is the only solution. What needs to happen is the allowance of people to seek therapy without consequence if they feel they could benefit from it. Some of the “normal” life stressors can get the best of anyone sometimes, and proactively addressing a problem before it becomes a big problem only makes sense.
Anyone who wants to be a pilot and can physically fly should have a pathway to obtain a Class 3 medical. With that said, there aren’t a lot of pilot aviation suicides that I know of. Hopefully this doesn’t become a problem.
There was a time when GA was affordable and fun, as in, 40 years ago. My son got his ppl & airplane of his own 5 years ago and not for commercial reasons, thank goodness. He had a great instructor and a good job in IT, so he leaves his stress when he gets in the pilot's seat. For him, GA is still fun and enjoyable, even though considerably less affordable than in my days in the cockpit.
I agree with a lot of the comments. Mental wellness is an issue. My heart goes out to the ATC who tried to help. Being more stress resilient is key. My husband and I are both pilots and we make our mental health a priority. Not just because of flying but living an overall healthy life. Stress isn't going anywhere, but how we respond to it essential. Until recently, medication was the first option, and depending on the medication, it often limited pilots. We partnered with the mental wellness company to promote clinically proven ways to help people be more stress resilient. We just need to get the word out to help more people.
Not for nothing but sometimes there are no indicators. People just do and there’s nothing anybody can do about it. This coming from someone whose career has been attempting to save people from themselves. It really makes you question whether the things you have done had any type of impact at all.
I recommend reading “The field guide to Human Error Investigations” by S. Dekker. Even though this is clearly a different case (security rather than safety), the field guide highlights the main questions to ask and pathways to take for an investigation and subsequent recommendations, all starting from: “The only thing that matters is what happened.” Many analysis suffer from hindsight bias so it is very important to always look at each episode of an event in the context at the time under the local rationality principle. In this case especially, it is important not to judge the people of the flight school etc. I understand for many the first reaction is, how can this happen, how did the flight school not see this, the FAA etc. Unfortunately this is not all that helpful and will likely lead to the same thing happening again. Only when you acknowledge that the cause runs much deeper and press hard and long enough until you understand why it “made sense” for the student to do what he did, you will be closer to solving the case and making aviation safer.
Thanks for the book suggestion brad and thanks for the reply
This is a suicide using an aircraft as a method. This is not an aviation safety issue - it’s a societal mental health issue which plagues western cultures. Start there - the rest will follow.
Also the notion of using “it’s never that bad” as a preventative strategy has been debunked by multiple high quality studies… it’s one of the most challenging aspects of mental health… the concept that rational thought is separate from the thinking depression results in. How else can loving fathers resort to suicide leaving widespread carnage in their wake in the numbers that they do? A more nuisanced understanding is required if you’re going to discuss these topics… though I applaud your willingness to do so.
We probably need to know his situation first to assess what went wrong. Make a collection of cases, look for the spectrum of problems and find an intercept point that might be generally applicable.
So sad. RIP 🙏
The faa needs to realize that being depressed is fine. People don’t want to kill other people unless they have another mental illness, depression comes from feeling stuck and like things won’t improve.
Being able to get help for these people is important, because otherwise this kind of stuff happens and then people are ACTUALLY put at risk, instead of some dude sitting down on a couch and talking to someone, that guy goes and nose dives a plane instead. It’s really silly and when we finally get this fixed people are going to wonder why it was ever like this
This breaks my heart! Did my flight training at KADS! RIP
I feel like this topic has been criminally ignored by government agencies. In the age of mental health, one of the most mentally and physically demanding careers is just ignored. While it’s important to focus on nefarious access to planes, incidents like this one and the Alaska Airline ‘hijacking’ show that mental health in the aviation community may be taking a turn down a dark road. RIP Logan, and I hope everyone uses this incident as a reminder to constantly assess yourself as PIC, and reach out to other pilots or loved ones when you’re not in good standing.
I trained at ATP and instructed with them for a year before moving on. Quality of life varies on location as far as I've seen. My experience as an instructor there was far worse than as a student but the program did affect my mental heath to a degree. Not to this point but there was not much support I could go to for help. Since I have left I do feel better and the new place I am working Is much better.
I however do not believe ATP is the cause of this crash and I obviously dont know all of the details. But I think the company should definitely invest in a better student/instructor relations. With a school of that size I was never able to contact anyone for support in a timely manor. And when I did I got pushed aside or blamed for any issues that arose. ATP has its ups and downs as any place would. Im curious to see what comes out of this. Prayers to Logan's family. I hope he is at peace.
Thanks for your reply Tyler.
While at ATP, did you ever feel like they were just training you to pass a checkride and not to be a better pilot?
@@jacobroose6812 No I did not personally. I know many people have voiced that. Some probably did feel that way but that's more of an instructor issue and you can see that anywhere. Are you looking at becoming a pilot?
and your currently paying a $300k loan after interest 😂😂. I'm glad atp kicked me out, and for the dumbest reason. After I got my private pilot easily they said since I'm not going into thr airlines the program isn't for me. They did that so they can skim money off me and charge me $50,000. My lawyer and I put a stop to that so i got 110 hours for $20k. Then I managed to get the loan company to cancel the $20k loan because I know how to write them in a way to get it to happen. Now I go to a much better school with career instructors. I can schedule myself at any time like 30 min before a flight and go to the school at night, open the gate with the code, grab the keys, and go build night xc Pic hours with friends at less than HALF the cost at ATP, and without an instructor whereas at ATP you will never fly solo except during private and never at night except at private. My total cost from zero to CFI will be $30,000 or less by the time I'm done, and I have my own business that makes around $200k a year. I'm chilling. I feel so bad for fkers at ATP. They only got into aviation because they wanted free travel and more money not because they care about being a pilot. And the only way they could become a pilot is by getting a fkn loan, it's hilarious to think you owe over $300k by the time you pay it off, TEN TIMES more than what it will cost me. Sorry dude.. PS. I'm currently the one responsible for a class action against ATP. We have over 1000 representatives who are former ATP victims. If you want in reply back to me. They are all about false advertising and corrupt business practice. They also leave the keys IN THE PLANE with doors open because they WANT their planes stolen so they make money through insurance. GUARANTEE YOU this accident hasn't changed the keys policy because they want to make money from people who steal and crash their planes.
This sounds exactly like the guy that attempted to talk Ryan down. The dude that crashed the commercial plane into Mount Rainer in 2018
It’s important that we don’t add any new regulations, the FAA is WAY overloaded with regulations already. I do feel for his family but there is no regulation that can stop someone from taking their life. Sad day for his family.
The FAA encourages pilots to seek help if they have a mental-health condition since most, if treated, do not disqualify a pilot from flying.
There's not much you can do on the medical side without adding serious barriers to everyone. Aircraft owners need to know who is flying thier planes. That relationship should be a deeper one than between a pilot and their AME. Perhaps the FAA can start a mental health campaign
the FAA has a mental health campaign. Its slogan is "Never be sad or will will punish you but pretend we arent"
I can remember flight safety in vero having kids do this more often than you'd expect. Seemed like a lot of international students.. Now they're under a new name.. Hopefully new management style..
US Govt: You can have a any kind of gun for pretty much any reason at all on any medication you'd like. Also USG: Did you talk to a therapist once? Ok no flying for you, too big a risk.
If you have gone for mental health counseling, treatment including marital counseling that can be grounds to deny firearms ownership and will result in loss of concealed carry rights and responsibilities. This is a big problem in law enforcement, that is why we only talk to other cops.
After my time as a cop I worked for the big 91K/135 operator. Never tell the company you need mental health help. We got stress days off when the workload was more than could be handled. But we were told never say I am about to lose it. That will result in suspension, loss of security clearance and reporting to FAA for certificate action. Loss of security clearance is also reported to FBI and you can no longer buy a firearm.
Most people don’t know this, you speak to an accredited mental health provider they must make an entry that you may keep you Second Amendment Rights in your file otherwise it is grounds for forfeiture of rights and property. There is no procedure for keeping FAA medical intact that my doctor knew of.
When I stopped being a cop I lost my medical to fly. When people are hurt as badly as I the state mandates mental health checkins. My doctor put in my chart I was allowed to carry my weapon to his office and posed no threat to aviation. Seeking mental health help will cost you your Second Amendment Rights.
When I was young CFI in post-USSR in 1990-1991 at 1st day (4h30min of the second cockpit of Yakovlew-52) my collega said a joke "I being almost out of sence". After that humor he was directed to additional medexpertiza and I think, he had been remembering it for a long time.
Does anyone remember the Germanwings tragedy? A Co pilot with a history of questionable mental health, locked the Commander out of the flight deck when he went for a comfort break, and deliberately flew the Airbus A320-211 into the side of a mountain, killing over 150 people. At least Logan, God bless him, ended his own life only and not the lives of others. Both cases absolutely tragic.
yup, that was a traumatic case and something we should all remember can happen
Do you keep your Christmas tree up all year?
as you say results may vary but the FOs that I have flown with that went to ATP or a comparable program are fine
atp is known for having aircraft fully fueled and no keys needed. anyone can go to atp and walk right up to the AC and hop in and take off.....you can here in okc. no security and easy access. ATP is a cash cow and make you test when you are not ready and the instructors are only paid when flying...some do not do grounds because they are not paid and the attitude is arrogant as best. ATP does not care about the client. I figured this out early and got out. They will fail you out in a minute so they can protect their "drop out" rate.
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For my short time at ATP I can say without a doubt the CFIs are unhappy. They don’t get health benefits and only get paid if they fly and are expected to be there 24/7. I saw a CFI quit after he only got paid 30 bucks for an entire day because his students canceled. And only flew for an hour plus. I personally saw MY own instructor plead with their other student to compromise her personal set of minimums to fly or he wouldn’t make money that day. Just disgusting, disgusting he had to beg and disgusting pushed him to that point.
That is interesting and something to consider in general moving forward with any flight school. I'm sure that has happened else where too
Atp is utter garbage. Don't go there. I'm one of the lucky ones who was slick and managed to get 110 hours out of atp for free. I'm also lucky I have a $200k/year business. My entire cost from zero to CFI will be $30,000. But anyone going to atp and if they have cost overruns and also get housing are looking at a $400k loan after interest, that's THIRTEEN TIMES more than what I will pay when I'm done. Atp also treats the students like chit, only sees them as money. They don't let students solo after the private phase, and don't fly at night after private phase either. In my current school we only have career instructors, and my last 25 hours have been solo PIC xc at night or flying with friends without an instructor because other NORMAL schools trust private pilots to fly their planes solo. At ATP you pay $350/hr and every hour is always with an instructor after private. It's absurd. I'm paying $160/hr max to fly solo to build hours. If I fly with another pilot I only pay $80/hr, meanwhile at ATP every flight costs $350/hr. Absurdly high prices because broke people who get a loan don't really think about the fact they're being shafted hard
I think the process is too cumbersome and leads to pilots not getting both mental and medical help they need for fear of loosing their medical and or having to spend 10 to 20k to get their medical back. The medical process isn’t stopping people from doing stuff like this, because it misses undiagnosed issues and as I stated before paranoia of loosing a medical with a very expensive battle to get it back is the issue.
This is one of those subjects that have a broader picture. Just like people who are supposedly sane and are able to buy firearms, drive cars or fly airplanes, it is never known when someone will go off the deep end without prior warning signs. You could do all the medical pre-examinations you want for any of the forementioned activities, but if somebody snaps it doesn’t matter what method they use to kill themselves they’re going to do it or hurt somebody else. All we can do as a general public is the observant for any telltale signs of anybody’s suffering trouble in their life.
if he got a dui and he's 23 he could quickly fall on doom and gloom considering he went six figures into debt to do ATP and a DUI will fuck him for ever
That would add stress but no clear way to know unless talking to the loving people around him
Why don’t we talk about statistics. How many pilots are trained yearly. How many hours are flown successfully? This is the far out layer and needs to be treated as such. What he did sucks for him and his family. However it’s not an industry epidemic that needs to be solved.
I'm guessing it wasn't his plane.
Too bad for the guy who owned the plane.
It was a flight school who owned the palne
How many pilots commit suicide by intentionally crashing their plane? The answer is slim to none. That being said there's nothing that needs to be changed procedure-wise. You have to be a realist and understand that although it's good to prepare for danger, there will always be psychos in the world that are the exceptions of the rule. If this was a common issue of pilots crashing planes into the ground to commit suicide then they're absolutely needs to be something done to figure out why. But just because one crazy idiot does something stupid doesn't mean you need to revamp any procedures in place.
The money, the pressure
I imagine perhaps his involvement in ATP was one factor. We don't know how he was doing there, but given the large investment and possible lack of results... that's a theory. This is a symptom of a larger problem with suicide rates going up nationwide. They happen all the time, this time with an airplane.
You still have your Christmas tree…..
This ignorance at 2:00 smh 🤦🏾♂️ "Things are never that bad when you have a clear mind"
Some people don't have a clear mind bc things are that bad. People wouldn't take this course of action if "things are never that bad" was true 🤦🏾♂️
I don't understand why ppl who've only had good mental health seem to not be able to understand such a simple concept.
Flight training is extremely stressful, especially when on a fast track program. Not being able to get help without the fear of losing your medical for the rest of your life is the reason a lot of us won’t get help (if needed). This isn’t the fault of just atp, but more on the FAA medical side in my opinion. I’ve also heard horror stories of ATP and have visited their locations when I was initially choosing a school. I was not impressed with them at all.
I think a lot of us don’t want to find out what’s wrong because it’ll immediately crush our future, in our perspective. Anonymous therapy screening for a bunch of people to just reach out and find out what’s going on. Could be nothing could be something, but you won’t face repercussions and you can move forward with the information as you wish. Maybe if people knew something was actually wrong with them they might seek more treatment. Obviously it won’t solve everything, but at least more people would be comfortable approaching a therapist
Honestly if you ever feel like pulling this stunt, it’s probably an issue with you. Regardless of how crappy the school is or whatever, it’s not normal to want to off yourself because of it.
The elephant in the room is that even though mental health resources exist and we’ve come a long way in that space, it’s largely out of reach for pilots because of the backward policies of the Feds Against Aviation. While I don’t think that would have made a difference in this case, it’s definitely a start to addressing mental health in general. Don’t punish people for suffering through anxiety and depression, two conditions that affect the majority of human beings at one point or another. Not every condition needs to be a long term disorder. Most people go through periods of short term anxiety, situational depression, etc. Most cases can be effectively treated without wading through a pile of bureaucratic crap, wasting thousands of dollars, and months to years of your time . If surgeons can effectively operate on some of these medications and while attending therapy without questions asked, we should be able to seek help when we need it.
The non pilot mill pay-out-of-pocket flight school I've gone to all have stories of taking on ex-atp students.
Some have absurd hours and haven't solo'd and now owe 20 grand+
Or realized that their life will be a slave to Sally mae for the next 20 years paying a grand a month for a 70-85k loan. And they won't make airline money to pay for that for about a year or two or more.
Then consider the pressures of all of that riding on passing a checkrides to even get to the point of earning enough to pay that down.
Plenty of other pressures exist than just that.
It might not be a crazy mental disability.
It’s really bad to generalize on health matters and any medicine one may have used. The older one gets, the more one should realize that life is super complex and there are millions of things that can happen to people over time. Clearly, this is just a sad event that all wish had not happened. Not every incident is the basis for a rule. I pray for his family.
Seriously,....why the hell is your Christmas tree still up?
because its a great time of the year!
I think about how it must be to have mild depression as a pilot. I can’t speak for the FAA as I am not an American. In Canada though our regulatory body will let you fly with mental illness if you have another pilot. So.. how the hell does that work if you have a 172? Not allowed to fly it alone basically.. and it’s entirely impractical for GA pilots to require another pilot to be with you. Absolute wing clipper.
As another commenter has said there needs to be another way to get help than have a permanent record. Some kind of anonymous thing.
This seemed planned very intently and in a way to only hurt himself. Short of having someone block the runway I don't think you could have stopped it. I hear a lot of these career path flight training are like drinking from a fire hose. The obvious issue here is Pilots and those aspiring to be pilots have to forgo health care in many aspects making them more dangerous than if they were treated medically and monitored. However the way everything is written by the FAA many are scared to even make an appointment that could have them reviewed or denied their flight privileges they have spent both time and money to achieve...
As someone who's been on the verge and almost attempted several times, we need to raise awareness and try to help monitor pilot's mental health to stop this from happening more
Poor man….
FAA allows airmen to take anti-depressants including Celexa, Zoloft, Prozac. Talk to HIMS AME and keep your career.
Not that he was crazy, he was hurting badly obviously, but I always said, "Government can only do so much. You cannot regulate crazy." People are unpredictable, which is why I use the the word: not to insult anybody. These incidents are rare but tragic. I don't have the answers to prevent stuff like this, but the answer is clearly not "more regulation." From my end.
I think what the FAA should do is be more open to pilots seeking mental help. Even basic therapy requires more explanation and paperwork for medicals. Therapy is healthy for everyone. If pilots were encouraged to take care of their mental health rather than vilified for it, that would be a start.
I dont think we need more regs (or necessarily less) but they need to be changed to allow the space for pilots and aspiring pilots to be able to actually communicate their issues without the fear of very drastic reprisal. There is of course a line but the dark joke now is "want a clearance? Just never have been sad"
Amen brother.@@DSShelby23
@fly8ma, normally I enjoy your videos, but certainly dont agree with most of what you just said in that video. Its 24 hours old, and you are making presuppositions about things that just dont have enough information yet. I would have preferred you stuck with telling the facts of story and what happened instead of getting into your psychology assessments/evaluations which I speculate are areas outside of your expertise. Imply the FAA should set stricter standards for a one-off situation like this, and suggestion higher levels of scrutiny from a government agency sounds like the completely wrong direction. This seems to be the new world order we have these days with instant information access and everyone has a pulpit where we want to suggest or imply that more rules are needed every time a single use-case like this occurs. Implying it has anything to do with the flight school seems insane this early in the story. We might never know if that had anything to do with it. And as far as knee-jerking for stricter regulations, rules should be changed for patterns of behavior, not single situation occurrences like this. Anyway, something really hit me wrong with your messaging on this video, and I feel you are doing more damage to GA with content like this.
We appreciate your feed back frank.
Nothing, the rules are already overwhelming.... People will always have issues in this world sadly..
The face you made and the tone spoken when you say "we don't give mental health days, we don't believe in them" is insane considering the topic at hand.
I read the other reply where you basically say that if you need one mental health day here or there to keep you from "cracking" then you are unsafe to work in this career, period. You couldn't have expressed what the problem is better and not even realize it. Its not about "I'm one day away from cracking and if I don't take a mental health day then something bad will happen," its that life has stress and emotion and they will not stay constant, a mentally healthy person can find themselves overwhelmed with stress and will be unfit to fly in that condition. The problem is that the expectation is that a pilot is never allowed to be too stressed or emotional to fly without long term consequences occurring, and so they ignore the IMSAFE checklist and proceed when they shouldn't. What is the point in having the "Stress" and "Emotion" part of the checklist if the consequences are more than just "today is not a good day to fly for me," and more on the lines of "if I say I am too stressed to focus today I could be out of work for an extended period of time," and so we add on some more stress and still go fly because we lied??
I was considering going to ATP but I am so happy I am going to the one I am now because they value the IMSAFE checklist and in turn value SAFETY. They understand, ESPECIALLY if you are in school, that there are times when you may be overly stressed or emotional and they will allow you to cancel for those reasons. I have never had to cancel for stress or emotion, but what if I was too stressed to be able to focus on flying, but then I had the added stress that if I say anything then I would be out of school or work for an extended period of time??
The way to keep mentally healthy people healthy is by allowing them to be real with themselves and listen to their own cues. The day after this accident the safety officer sent a mass email to everyone, reminding me once again how great my school is. I'll paste a few quotes from it, but I think other schools could learn from this.
"There is a lot of self-inflicted stress that comes with aviation and flight training. Massive loans potentially taken out, stage checks, check rides, oral exams, and the seemingly massive amount of hours needed at times to finish a rating or to be able to move on to the next step in one's career. These stressors can be very difficult to manage. We need to communicate, as difficult as that may be at times... we need “support” systems."
"We all react differently to traumatic situations, and it is important to watch and care for others as we do for ourselves."
"Finally, please keep these things in mind:
Be not afraid to reach out for help
Talk with co-workers and fellow students
Utilize the Student Affairs team to help with your training path and success
Make sure to honestly fill out the FAT form before each flight
Follow the IMSAFE checklist (S = Stress)
Remember that we are here to listen to you and help you
Be safe."