"Given the Opportunity, Players Will Optimize The Fun Out of a Game"
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Are you having a good time in Classic? No but like an efficient good time?
Just a few thoughts today about how players interact with the legacy content in Classic WoW!
Enjoy!
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Felwood Music: • Vanilla Felwood -Music...
Tanaris Music: • Vanilla Tanaris - Musi...
Hinterlands Music: • The Hinterlands - Musi...
Outro - A small track from Winterspring, "Winterspring 5"
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"I'd argue that the feeling of doing well in a game *does not* correlate to enjoying the game." For some reason, that quote was a gut punch. It's really eye opening.
I've been trying to get people, who haven't experienced the game yet, playing it, so I have someone to do wierd shit with. Newbies are always a breath of fresh air as long as you don't push your ideas about the game onto them.
Yeah agreed. I always try to encourage new players to enjoy the game. An example of how odd this can seem to people, is that I and a friend (both bwl geared healer and tank) are perfectly willing to run groups with people who aren't max level, or run dungeons which aren't high level, just so others can enjoy them too. Yet pretty much nomatter how we suggest to be engaged with and helping others enjoy the game, people think we're joking with them when we say we'll run with them in sub 60 dungeons just 'cause it's fun... A bit sad really.
I looked up nothing. Still leveling. Classic is much more fun to the newbies. Seems like everyone saying it's not fun are the ones who have played it too much
I've been playing since vanilla launch. I'm now 54 years old and I really couldn't care less about min/maxing. I began and continue to play this game because it's fun. I was a reader as a child, I read everything and everything related to the fantasy genre. I started reading fantasy when there wasn't even a fantasy genre, it was coupled with sci-fi. First I played Everquest and then when WoW came out I moved to it. For me these games brought my favorite books to life in a '3d' setting that was interactive. I still remember the feeling I got when I was able to create a Dark Elf wizard in E.Q. and named him Feldegast. Those feels...
Darren Orris I can relate, being Inside of a fantasy/story feels amazing.
got a new person into it as well, much more fun to play together
Thrall: *What's different this time?*
Jaina: *We are.*
Right in the feels bruv
right in my nostalgia
Jaina: Our ilvls.
Sorry to be offtopic but does someone know of a trick to get back into an instagram account..?
I was dumb lost the account password. I would love any assistance you can offer me!
@Raylan Keegan Instablaster ;)
We were the WoW Killers all along. PepeHands
This made me legitimately laugh out loud and I had to try and explain it to my wife haha
Cyborg I become
*palpatine voice* IRONIC
Always were
no duh
I come from a background of having played RuneScape for literally 14 years, and this video perfectly explains that community as well. One of the biggest draws to WoW is that I feel less compelled to be efficient because, as a new player, nobody really expects me to know anything. Even though I'm only level 54, man this journey has been a blast. Being efficient can be fun, but man it can ruin a game too.
I've played WoW for quite a while, and have many many alts at max level... and I'll tell you, I dont think I've leveled any of them "efficiently." Sometimes I search for a specific transmog, or maybe I really want to try pvp as this class at level 60...maybe I want to do a specific dungeon, maybe stop and train my professions a bit... and I always play what's fun for me, not what's meta. If what I enjoy happens to be meta, that's just a coincidence and didnt inform my decision.
Yes play the game in your own pace and how it is fun for you. That's the right thing to do in any game. At the launch of classic myself and my friends really wanted to lvl as fast as possible with dungeon grinding etc. but it just burnt us out eventually. After a long very long break we started new characters and made the lvling more fun. We even had a little bit of a challenge because we ran Dungeon in a 4 man group with a druid hunter mage and rogue. So basically our druid was the tank and healer at the same time and the hunter pet was second tank. It wasn't the most efficient way but it certainly was the most fun we had ever in this game.
Played for over a decade myself. OSRS is efficiency on mega turbo steroids. People think R14 is a boring grind? Lets see you 3 tick fish to 99. Or you know... just Runecrafting in general (rc bad, slayer good ofc)
>new player
>level 54
well you did better than most of the returning self-proclaimed 'veteran' players who quit after a month or two
Stopped playing Classic after the guild I was in cleared MC and Onyxia, went back to OSRS and now im back to Classic again except im not gonna stress and min max as much as I did at the start of Classic. Hopefully I don't repeat the cycle.
The absolute worst of this min-max thinking is that world buffs and parses means everything to the detrimental effect of druids who just want to play their class. Everyone belives that once they get a hot on them they loose their precious buffs. Its gotten so ridiculous that finding a guild who allows hots is getting harder and harder. It is not fun playing druid when you cannot use their main abilities. WillE, please make a video on worldbuffs and the effect of the buffcap meta.
Me secretly hoping we get killed by ally on the way into AQ so I can use hots lmao
Seriously? This is some next level bs.
@@0Wayland Yup. If you get every single consumable and world buff you can easily lose some of your world buffs from random buffs that pop up during raid. As a result, in guilds that min-max the druids purpose is to keep the druid buff on everyone, and not much else.
Lol yeah this made me quit. The best thing was this 'min max' guild I was in had stupid rules like that but then still couldn't clear BWL.
If you go feral the melee will want your crit buff! Might be a good spec for you!
I remember back in WOTLK trying to play WoW the 'right' way. Looking up guides on optimal gear. Running the same dungeons over and over, hoping the item I was going for dropped, and I'd be lucky enough to win it. Looking up stats and metrics, obsessing over gearscore, trying to scrape together badges for upgrades, optimizing my class to squeeze out another percentage or two of damage to try and top the meters.
I was miserable. I know for some people, Min/Maxing IS the fun and they enjoy it. And that's cool. But for me, the moment became all about NUMBERS and making BIGGER NUMBERS and having BETTER NUMBERS than anyone else, it lost the fanciful side of going on an adventure in a cool new world. I was constantly stressed about trying to be the best performer possible, and every time I came across nitpicky or trolly players it could ruin my entire day because apparently I wasn't good enough, so I wasn't playing WoW RIGHT.
Since WOTLK I cut back on optimization. These days, I'll hunt gear enough that when I'm out exploring the world or doing quests, I'm not getting stomped by standard mobs. But I don't let THE NUMBERS choose what I do anymore. I pick talents that sound fun or interesting. I run dungeons if I feel like it, not because I'm desperately hunting the optimized piece of gear. If I feel like just exploring that day, hunting transmog, or just fishing for a couple hours, I will. And it's amazing, how much more FUN the game is, when I play it to have fun, and not to have BETTER NUMBERS.
I feel you bro, since Wotlk the game became "competitive" on the PVE side and it stopped being about adventure and epic battles. I recall the times where you needed Achievements to do Raids, but you couldn't have those achievements unless you did the raid....
WotLK was the first expansion that saw players requiring gear scores higher than what dropped in the dungeon or raid, and I despised the requirements handed down on-high by these elitist a-holes. When I went to do my first heroic dungeon on my tank warrior, I had the best gear you could get without raiding or doing heroics, including several crafted epics. The first heroic group I joined was for The Nexus, and the leader kicked me the moment they inspected me and saw my gear score. I was literally "too low" to tank the easiest heroic in the game, despite having the best non-heroic gear in the game...
@@nispelsm Yup, im not thrilled about going back to those times.
A part of me did that back in WotLK too, but I mostly spent my time goofing around experimenting with things and hunting for achievements or farming mobs that had an almost unexistant chance to drop a rare pet that sold for a lot. I remember farming Stratholme more than 100 times spread over the course of a few months trying to get that rare mount that i think now drops 100% of the time. Whenever that time of the year comes where I get back to playing WoW for 2-3 weeks to scratch my itch I still use that mount above all others.
These days if I play I play it like a single player game, world quests, gold farming a little, maybe a little exploring if I'm curious about something, the occasional old school raid. Life is good
This is what drove me from ESO. I was pulling 40k self buffed on a 3 mil and I always felt I wasn’t good enough. I had multiple 4 man DLC skins etc but there’d always be a guy saying “Pfft only 40K? Gotta hit 70k to be a real endgame player.”
I knew it wasn’t true but it just killed the game for me,
You can still have nice conversations in classic. I did the Elite Hunting Quests in STV with my twink last week and got help from a very chill warrior. We talked a bit and found out we were both into wine, so we went fishing in STV and talked about our favorite wines for an hour.
In the first few months after Classic came out, I did have social interactions, it kinda was like back then. So there certainly was audience there for this, even if this type of players probably aren't playing Classic anymore so much.
I gotta mention that I did have some social interactions in Retail as well, for example we recently teamed up for "chill 3v3 Arena cap" group where we'd farm Conquest points, and we talked between matches.
The Brawler's Guild when it was fresh again in 8.1.5 was probably the best experience for this. It was just nice hanging out, watching each other's fights, commenting on them, betting and talking about random stuff too. I guess the downtime aspect of the Brawler's Guild really facilitated it.
This makes me think about what a single player WoW would look like.
Where PvP objectives were PvE, and all content were soloable but required a certain level of prep. Bosses dropped only gear for your selected class etc.
I wonder if it would even be playable. I mean, I've sunk years into single-player open-world RPGs.
I think you hit the nail on the head with the wealth and ease of access of information. If we like something, we spend time to learn more about it, but rarely do we stop to consider whether consuming all that information will make our experience better.
I was a casual player who didn't even make it to 60, and from the start I said I wasn't playing to win, but to enjoy an old game and have fun. However, I still had to deal with the temptation to read up and do what is optimal rather than just relax and play the game. For instance, I did my leveling build based on what was considered best until level 40. Then I spent too much time at level 40 deciding if I should respec to level faster vs keeping my gear and spec. I refused to use a quest addon, but almost always had wowhead open on another monitor. And here I am still watching videos analyzing the game after I stopped playing.
I just got a retail WoW subscription for the first time. I'm glad I saw this before I looked up any guides. I wanna take it slow and at my own pace. This helped me remember that while a "meta" to follow can be helpful to new players, it really does put a cap on fun.
Best way to do it
Love hearing you philosophize about a 15-16 year old game and the "love" about it... It always makes me ponder
"is Nostalgia bad?"
Well.. thats a tough one. I remember years ago I ran into a vid on tomb raider 3 for some reason, and was listening to the soundtrack. I played it loads as a kid. One day I decided, sure lets give it a go, went on steam, was really cheap. Must of played it for all of 5 mins. It had a keybind system I can only describe as being the work of a lunatic, extremely slow controls, I just couldnt enjoy it as I once did. Still love the game, even watch people play it sometimes.
You know what they say, "You can't go home again"
@@WillEmmo must have* WillE :)
Not really, as you can see something like the Mario 64 community is pretty healthy and shows that a 25+ year old game can still be relevant
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
Look at the current uproar/drama from Shadowlands Beta, you have to chose between 4 Covenants which gives different combat bonuses. Some will be better for some fights and some for other, there's also cosmetic items (such as mounts and transmog) from these 4 Covenants so you have to chose between the best "min/max" option for your main spec and the Covenant you maybe like the most thematically ...maybe you're a Paladin and you Tank in dungeons but dps in raids- so which Covenant do you pick then?
So why are Covenants such a drama scene now? Well ...because you can't easily change from one covenant to another, so once you make your choice you have to invest and sacrifice time to work your "rep progression" up again to unlock the bonuses. Meaning swapping from one Covenant to another isn't realistically possible. People are mad about having to make a choice that has consequences because it stops them from being able to min/max in every single little niche of the game, so like you quoted in this video: Yes, players can 100% suck all the 'fun' out of the game in the chase of optimization.
To be fair, many are in uproar about this, because they know that if they choose an option that isn't decreed by the top-end streamers to be "the most viable Covenant for this class/spec", they'll be verbally abused by all the meta-slaves. I mean, even now(or atleast if I remember correctly) you have people shitting on you for playing a non-Outlaw rogue, or a Feral druid, or basically anything that isn't considered meta. Of course, you can just make your own groups, but even if you make a group and advertise it as "chill run, no toxicity" you'll get swarmed with toxic people who'll try to shit on you for non-meta choices, even if you keep kicking them, you'll keep getting such people. This is such a needless stress for many people, it'll be just much easier to take the "meta" Covenant option to avoid needless toxicity, and I can't blame them for that.
Blizzard knows the current playerbase, they could have easily kept the "choices with consequences" idea but kept the "consequences" to just storylines and cosmetics, and leave actual gamechanging stuff, which WILL matter in Mythic Dungeons, where the few percentages of difference in dps between meta and non-meta choice can make or break the upgrading the key, and Mythic Raids with sometimes tight dps checks, unrelated to a thematic/lorewise choice. But they won't do that, and then they'll act surprised that majority of playerbase will take the best Covenant for their class in terms of Dungeons/Raids/PvP and not for theme reasons, if only to not have to bother with constant deluge of toxicity thrown towards them.
@@forwenein2669 Exactly, as much as I personally love to min/max and get the most out of my characters potential the "elitism" of players are destructive as hell. Even in Classic people ridicule you for even attempting to play anything outside of the 6-7 dps specs that are accepted as the "meta" and Classic PvE content is so easy that people literally can clear it in green gear.
I came back to retail for the Queen Azshara patch and tried to get into some pug dungeons and pug raids and I would instantly be declined for not having optimal gear, neck level and so on. Players are literally ruining the game with their elitist toxicity which spreads, I agree with the quote in the video that it's the game developers job to prevent players from destroying the game and saving the players from themselves.
OK. But where's the fun in restricting me to 2 out of 8 choices? Isn't it more fun to not feel punished for wanting to experience different stuff?
If you wanna talk about people "ruining the fun" because they want to be good at the game, you first have to be able to describe what makes it so fun in the first place. I still haven't found any answer for this. It's fun because it's a "consequential choice"? Is it? Really? Is "punishing and restrictive" the same as "impactful" or "fun" or "engaging"? I don't think so. If Blizz want to make an RPG game with RPG-decision making and RPG-consquences...they've been making the wrong game for a decade...
players optimize because blizzard makes content that requires you to optimize. If you have never mythic raided near or on release then you wouldn't know about the inbalance
@@MrGlennJohnsen While I agree with the quote to a degree, because in software development the end user is NEVER to be trusted. You assume they are as dumb as a rock and will break your product, so you safeguard against that. However, how do you propose the developers fix the issue you have described? You want players to accept you into a group regardless of your neck level? So if everyone if that group is 90 neck and you're 52, you think you have a place in that group...? That's entitlement and that's far more an issue than the one you have described. People being toxic is one thing, and it's something that should stop, but to imply that people need to accept you into the group regardless of your stats isn't something that needs to be happening. You just came back for the patch, meanwhile people have been farming the whole time you're gone. You're not on the same level as them and they rightfully can decline you from a group. That isn't destroying the game. It's like an LFR raider saying a mythic n'zoth group should take them. No chance.
I'm still a level 37, I've just been taking my time playing on and off, just enjoying the game how it was supposed to be. It's been a blast so far.
Isn’t this basically the same controversy going on in Shadowlands, where the community wants to have access to all of the covenant abilities but Blizzard wants rpg choices to matter and have consequences. It seems everyone on retail side is in favor of the more competitively relevant game, whereas classic is suffering for the exact same reasons.
The thing with covenants is that it's impossible to balance and I think that everybody secretely knows this. People who want it optimized in raids will complain about you being in the wrong covenant OR it matters so little that the question of ''why are these even a thing again?'' pops up. I agree with the casuals and community on this one for like the first time, covenants really are a pain in the ass to actually work (4 ways of different spellfor each class and 4 different covenant abilities)... at least don't punish people extremely for pick a covenant and being bombarded with THIS IS NOT THE OPTIMAL ONE!!!1!!1 and let them just do what they want.
Sieyar Ehrari Personally I don’t mind the covenant abilities. I consider myself a casual player, and for the most part, azurite and talents don’t play a huge roll in how I enjoy the game. In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever switched around my talents for anything, and I can handle mythic+ just fine. The game seems perfectly playable with or without the constant customization, and to me the rpg element far outweighs the competitiveness of the game. What I do dislike are grindy systems such as essences where I have to play the same content over and over for each alt, but it seems like with the lvl crunch, alts will be easier than ever, so if people really want to diversify and test different builds, why not just use different characters, rather than forcing the system to be universal for every single player all the time.
@@maxwellarnold6631 I agree with you, in the end and like Sieyar said, nowadays the mentality or the "way" to play for most of the players who runs raids H or M, mythic+ (the highest possible), is precisely, "the optimal".
I can already see howmany people will be frustrated with covenants because in certain pugs you will not be invited because "you dont have thr right covenant for your dps/tank/healer" and that why I support Blizz on this one. That way to play and think it's absurd, it's stupid, it must change, cannot depend on that kind of "players".
@@tomasgonzaleztroncoso9814 I adore seeing people whine about this. Encountered this problem once, maybe twice? The most annoying thing is finding pugs for keys and yet they don't care what class/spec I am and do I have optimal talents or not, they care only about Raider.io score. It's either really that bad on US server, or people are overreacting, as always.
Well thats because blizzard makes content that scales with difficulty and in order to then ever assume your going to be able to do that content, mythic + or mythic raiding then you bet blizzard is going to expect youve optimized for it. So the consequences wouldn't be an issue if the content was presumably beatable with any covenant you choose but knowing that your dmg and utility are linked to covenants then they make you at risk to perform lesser and no longer be able to meet dps standards for phases or bosses or m+
You make a lot of good points as usual. Honestly it's all about who you play with. I have been rocking out with the same guild since launch and we have a blast. Just have fun and enjoy the new memories being made. We definitely still have special weekends where we push for speed runs. Right now we are having fun re rolling horde and straight leveling together. Shh no one knows we are alliance spies. Anyways I'm sure you get the picture. Find people you like 👍 good luck everyone!
I still love the idea that classic exists and I can always go back to my character, run a dungeon, do some farming, explore, level up a new class, and all that the way that is fun for me. That's fun for me in classic. Sure, I only raided MC and Onyxia because real life commitments, but the idea alone that wow classic exists, gives it purpose to me.
Same I still enjoy playing a 19 twink and making new characters or making gold lol
good call, on my server in discord people use the "parses lower" as a reason to justify not even talking to them.
On wich server are you playing dude ?
What server is this? Sounds like a very not fun place to be
From Maui I totally agree that WBuff plays a huge role, tho lets be real, in retail its random procs that do the damage instead of your abilities so.. meh :( Tbc can’t come soon enough
@@mcambu1 lets not kid ourselves there is an actual skill lvl curve for retail for parsing
Fernando González I agree except 8.3 lmao
That's precisely what killed Classic for me and pushed me back into retail. Wasn't the gameplay, the server issues, the layering issues, the PvP grind, name it.
It was the obsession with min-maxing in a game CLEARLY not designed for it. Spending endless hours farming flasks and half a dozen other consumables on top of the god forsaken world buffs, dealing with all the drama and whining they generated whenever someone inevitably got purged or ganked on his way to the raid or simply ripped aggro from me (i was a bear tank) and finally being told to reroll to DPS Warrior to have a slot for AQ40 (a class i HATE due to how reliant it is on others to do anything).
Yeah i just said fuck it. Because i knew none of this was remotely necessary to clear the content and that by complying to this i was literally wasting hours of my life away playing a video game in a way i didn't even enjoy.
Worst part is that i didn't go out of my way to join an hardcore guild. When i joined that guild they were advertising themselves as semi-hc and getting to know a lot of them, they turned out to be dads in their mid-30s for a large part. I thought i had found my home for the next few years but the speedrun bug bit some of them who brought over other tryhards and the rest is history.
So i went back to retail where the exact same mentality is indeed enforced but the STARK difference is the fact that the game IS ACTUALLY DESIGNED TO SUPPORT THIS. Being fully prepared for raids there is a 5 minutes endeavor and every classes have at least one spec that is worth bringing to a raid so you can't be just forced to reroll.
So in the end, i really thought i did but the community made it so that i don't in the end.
I agree, same here.
We have the same story, bro. Leveling with my friends and even solo leveling was a blast. Collecting pre-raid bis was a blast (admittedly I didn't get it all, but I got most of it!) But it was all downhill from there, down to the "casual guild" that became super toxic and wanted MC cleared in 40 mins.
That's exactly the same for me. When you've got a job to work, living with a partner and trying to have your own life and then the people on this game are making it so you have to do all this unecessary things so you can log off 5 minutes eariler than you did the week before is just a joke. The commnuity that made this game fun years ago and made this fun on release has gone :(. Tried a few other guilds even leveling guilds that just started raiding MC after ZG came out and they had the same attitude as every other guild. One of the guilds I was in required you to have flasks, consumables and world buffs as a mandatory thing for an ALT raid. ALT!
I just don't have the time that's obviously required to do useless shit.
This is why you cant emulate vanilla With no changes. With no changes comes all this, which basicly makes it Nothing like vanilla. Said it a million times, it should have been retuned and switched some things around to make things less known and up the difficulty. This, although not authentic vanilla would make it more like the vanilla experience actually was.
@@nyi6284
Yea, the no changes crowd really annoyed me. In every forum they were shouting down any reasonable voice with their toxicity. I really hope they change up things a lot with TBC. I mean even going so far as redesigning the boss encounters to keep it fresh. Nothing much, some changed timers and maybe a new ability hear and there. Just to keep people from preparing a year in advance on p-servers and bring that elitist toxic mentality with them.
Pushing clear times and world buffs killed a lot of the fun of classic raiding. The most fun I've had is hanging out with guildies on a ptr exploring "hidden zones" ie Hyjal, Caverns of Time, GM island etc.
Have you ever thought that different kinds of people find fun in different things? Because to me, pushing clear times and getting world buffs IS fun.
@@frostdracohardstyle Rend, Ony, DM, Songflower, ZG, DMT and DMF when up. Oh yeah loads of fun. I'm guessing you won't be playing TBC then since there are no world buffs?
Speedrunning has been one of the most fun aspects of classic to me, though i took a break from it to not burn out before AQ.
same, its a stupid meta tbh. When i first played classic none of this bs existed and my guild struggled to clear fucking ZG. Today in classic they are clearing MC in 25 mins
The best way I've heard classic described is how "You can recreate the 2005 experience, but you can't recreate 2005 itself", everything was just so different back then. Even the world 1st KT kill had keyboard turners, awful framerate and people just doing horrible damage because nobody knew how to truly optimize anything. With 15 years of private servers and databases it's just been broken in half, haha. I really think Classic+ could have potential like how Jagex adds new content to OSRS, but this is Blizzard we're talking about.
I'm just holding out for TBC, Classic feels like the beta of what WoW would turn into, TBC is the full release version to me.
TBC has the same problems though. I remember really weird raid compositions from t6 onward. Also some specs were plain dumb. Arcane/frost shadowbolt/warlocks were literally single button classes.
@@Dextro626 lol ok
Interestingly I have had a better experience on any Vanilla private server than I have on Classic. I have played 3 years of Vanilla private servers before Classic. I have since quit Classic and am now playing TBC private servers. I have always had fun on private servers because they tuned up the content making it more difficult. I still have yet to be bored from any private server. Classic needs to be tuned up to be enjoyable in my opinion. Classic may be authentic mathematically, but private servers has a true authentic experience and a true sense of progression.
And I certainly do not trust Blizzard with TBC lol
How can you blame Blizzard when the community has spammed "NO CHANGES" ever since classic was announced?
I have personally enjoyed classic the entire time I've played it, and I'm happy with it because I had never gotten the opportunity during the original vanilla to play the game the way it was meant to. i.e: I had never leveled up past a certain point, and spent all of my time goofing around with others in the main city.
Now that I'm a bit more patient, and had spent time dwelling on it, I'm having a fun time. I wouldn't mind trying out something similar to what Runescape has done, where Classic isn't just what vanilla was like back then. Sure, asking for that kind of treatment would seem like a metaphorical spit in the face of the reason we called for it, but I think what people would really appreciate is a refinement of the original concepts of Vanilla. Looking at what made Vanilla a unique experience, and just honing in on those.
never more true then coming into SL where people are more worried about whats good instead of what covenant they may enjoy
I think that's inherent to any type of gameplay-changing effects the expansion will add. Think of the Scryers and Aldor in TBC. Back then people chose one faction over the other because of lore reasons or the aesthetics or what have you, but mainly because not everyone knew what the rep rewards were, and those who did probably chose more "wisely." I'd be willing to bet nowadays people will plan out their respective rep grind a month ahead of time if it benefits their class. The issue here is not necessarily the removal of RPG elements or lack of fun, but the burden of knowledge. Very few things in gaming are a mystery anymore. And when you know option A will make your character stronger than option B, then why ever choose B? Generally doing "less damage" or "less healing" or whatever generally feels less fun when you know that being tankier/stronger/more elusive is more "fun". Interesting topic though for sure.
That's not totally true. The main issue is being locked to one so without a massive grind, you cant the covenent you enjoy for certain content then change to another for different content. Another issue is majority know the meta and will expect it even at the lowest of m+ keys or raiding higher than lfr, you will be declined from alot, its not a 1% problem like people like to say. If you could swap in no time, it wouldn't have the uproar its currently having.
Well excuse us for trying to save you from another Essences/Azerite Gear/ Corruption situation xD
Illadin: "You are not prepared!"
Gamers: "Hold my beer."
thank you for keeping us updated!
We've had a multi rank 14 on Earthshaker, a priest fun times for everyone else you can imagine
Rogue on Ten Storms as well ;)
Solei?
@@GSFLuma yup
There was someone on Feathermoon that held rank 14 for over a month. Guy said if you wanted to earn rank 14 he was the final boss
Ross Reilly ah yes, the thing that killed vanilla the first time: a toxic player-base.
my biggest issue atm is the lag of pugs surprisingly. If you want to gear up an alt. you better bring some gold cause GDKP is the only runs happening at the moment. Even guilds that are usually spamming for mages wars and healers are looking into GDKP. Its much easier to find a geared player if your willing to pay them. i.e. selling tanking services. Your best option for gearing up is to simply buy all your gear or at least the rare pieces. But if we're paying for boosts to get to 60 and then paying for gear once you are 60. Then what are we playing this for?
It sounds like these players would rather go play on their donationable private servers so they can just buy their best in slot gear. currently I play on warmane and I make a shit ton of money by literally leveling alts to 80 and then selling them because people will buy the naked 80 and then spend the $450 to best in slot it xD
Bring your main to raid A, get gold but no items from raid A, send gold to alt, bring alt to raid B, bid on items... profit?
@@Ithrial420 i have zero idea what those ppl plan to do with that gear, if they can buy every single piece from whole content, whats the fking point of going to raids? you prolly just do it once for the sake of it and never run it again, you have every piece of gear you have
@@Quitarstudent actually no the reason why they do that is so they can jump directly into bane runs and such. Personally I think it's stupid but I can understand why some people would do it. I guess one dude I play with he spent his time leveling is warrior that 80 and then dropped the 450 to best in slot it. He works all day for the government basically reverse hacking things that were hacked she has the money and he doesn't have the time to constantly go to these raids and such.
@@Quitarstudent A lot of possible reasons tbh, and it's all due to how private servers work at a basic level
Since private servers are static (meaning a large % of players have likely completed the endgame, and thus there is no 'race', nor a time limit before a new expansion drops like in retail), for many people it's become less about progression itself and more about chilling/raiding/doing pvp with friends on weekends. In that case, getting instant gear upgrades reduces the load from the entire raid, and lets you carry newbie guildies and casual friends more smoothly. Having your name on the top of dpsmeters all the while is the cherry on top.
For newer players, ofc there's the drive to join raids asap and catch up to your other friends.
And if you're best in slot? You make another alt to try out other classes/specs and help your guild's second or third run, while your main likely still raids as well to gather DKP for said alt. (Yes, people having like 10+ geared toons isn't that uncommon a thing)
Though as far as donators I personally know go, most only buy a couple of hard-to-get gears and grind the rest through normal gameplay
Yeah as a NE feral druid, i agree 100%. Had to change guild 5 times and in the end changed server as well. Reason: why take a feral when you can take a fury? That got me benched mostly. Got 2nd Rag kill on my server but as meta started to solidify, only fury wars and rogues were accepted.
The terrible state of PVP as alliance (lose to premades in wsg / AB or loose in AV) even makes the only alternative to raiding super bad for "meme" specs (i hate that word).
That's true in any game though. You have to ask yourself why 39 other people want to make it harder on themselves for no benefit by taking a weak class? Of course you can play what you want, more power to you. But don't be surprised if others don't find it fun to carry a weak class.
This question you ask is a very deep Spiritual / Philosophy Question. Given the Opportunity, The mind will optimize the fun out of the game of life. I think it has something to say about living for the present vs living for a goal that you think might make you happy (short lived happiness)? Something I've spent a lot of time wondering about. Excellent video.
When people said that players would be more social in Classic...yeeeeeeaaaahhhhh.....I knew that was a total load of nostalgia-induced bullshit. People would be social...with their insular cliques. What people miss is the game forcing people to be social as if they were in high school. With the popular kids(raiding guilds) holding prestige. And you could be made into a server pariah for offending the wrong person or being shamed for making one little mistake in a dungeon. Some people hated the LFG system because it took away power from the social gatekeepers. And it allowed people utterly uninterested in being social to be able to do dungeons.
Boss guides, too...
Before you even see the raid for the first time, you are expected to read a thorough document that will tell you everything the boss will do and in what order and precisely how to deal with all of it. Or you watch a video which even spoils the visuals.
And then when you finally get to to the boss, you are expected to have an addon that will tell you precisely what is about to happen and where to go and what to attack. You also have an addon that tells you what ability to use next to do max DPS.
Why? This ruins all the fun. You are just following instructions. All you do is press the buttons that guides and addons dictate. Who is really playing the game here?
Damn lol. People are still playing this kind of fight? Sounds garbage, the first time i heard an rpg tell you this much in a boss fight
i do remember when everyone was discovering things and mechanics for the first time, with no addons just the ones they were making as they went on. It was an awesome time
The fun part here, is that J Allan Brack was right all along with his "you think you do, but you don't" But people was too dumb to understand what he meant by that... Because what happens is, People THINK they wanted Vanilla back, but in reality, what they wanted was THE EXPERIENCE. The way you felt when playing the game for the first time back then, and the way you experienced it, because even if you dont know the game today, you cant have the same experience then someone back in 2004, without all the addons, wowhead, discord, etc etc etc.
This is why we have people bored of Classic already, people that were unsatisfied from the start, because they already knew the game, thus the experience was totaly diferent! This is why people are asking for clASSic pLuS... because they failed to realize, what they want: that sense of wonder and discovery, that dosent exist anymore, since you already did discovered the game 15 years ago! So they want NEW CONTENT but in the shape and form that Vanilla had, because they think that is what will bring them that experience.. tho, spoiler alert, it wont... it will never be the same: Because the moment they start developing new content, the mmo sites will datamine the shit out of everything! There will be a thousand videos in youtube explaining how every new feature works, how every new boss fight must be done, etc etc... and even if you stay away from the internet, when you get to play this new content, the experience will be diferent, because now you know how to actualy play your class to perfection, because you know how to find the quests right away, because now you understand every mechanic they can trow at you right away, and know how to counter it!
There is only one first time... Yet that dosent mean people can't enjoy the game again... but they need to understand, the experience wont be the same... if is the experience what you are looking for, you can't get it... not the same one, ever again.
And this isn't Blizzard's fault here... is just the way things are, and this applies to everything in life, not just wow.
I think you should chill out with the generalizations. Some people were clearly misguided by nostalgia but most knew full well what they wanted from Classic. I'm still having a blast playing it and so does a huge number of people. No reason to diminish their experience because you didn't find what you were looking for. The reason Classic exists is because there is a massive divergence between what a good chunk of the players want from WoW and what Blizzard has been pushing in retail.
That's why i said at the end, that people can enjoy the game, so long they arent expecting to have the same experience they did 15 years ago. So long you are aware, and you know what you are going for, of course you gonna have fun.
This video alone can generate content for whole Asmongold stream.
Jokes aside, I also think that the fact that 2004 and 2020 are vastly different in terms of gaming and technology overall has big impact. We are min maxing now, but who joined for it? I don't think anyone did. We were gripped by the fantasy, by adventure, and we focused on it. When we explored everything, we were greeted with the "end-game" that realistically speaking, never ends. We got accustomed to it and tried to find fun in a game that didn't have the adventure aspect anymore. It all became mechanical and we've grown accustomed to it. Back to the 2004 vs 2020... I don't even remember the internet to be a big thing in my country in 2004. Maybe some tech savys were using it, but other than that, it was mostly kids who had no idea what's happening or rich old chaps that just want to chill out after the day of work. We had no LUA aficionados / masochists who could automate your whole in-game life using piss poor documentation. I'm not saying that no one was min maxing, cause I myself remember playing Silkroad and trying to have enough gear to 2shot mobs I was leveling at with my glavier, but I feel like it wasn't so socially unacceptable to not know something or not be prepared fully to what's about to happen. Over the years I saw multiple situations where people were for example not worthy of the loot because other guildies do not see them taking extra steps to increase their dps. This accustoms people to think about minmaxing just as a safety measure, as a prerequisite, not something that is nice to have. I also think that the game is to blame too - DPS checks? Perfect reason to minmax. Ability to parse during the fight? 99% of people I've seen raiding, have a DPS meter on the screen, even though it doesn't help at all - it only increases your epeen and makes you less focused on the task. When I think about it, I immediately think about Sekiro - a modern RPG that FINALLY stopped using damage numbers - this needs to stop. The fights in current RPG-sphere are too often designed with DPS / HPS requirements in mind. Ok I can write like that for ages, but I hope someone got the point...
Starcraft is the ultimate example of this quote
It's 100% solved. And unless you have maximum efficiency, can spam 500+ in game command's per minute, control 100+ individual units at once, build in a exact order with frame perfect timing, you will lose
*Every single time without failure*
"people are waiting for tbc to fix classic and just as many will be waiting for wrath to fix tbc"
the difference is that there's a hell of a lot more to do at endgame outside of raiding/pvp/farming in both of those expansions than in classic, even ignoring weird challenges. AoE cap alone is gonna put a stop to the alt boosting meta which will bring much more life back to the levelling zones
What is aoe cap
@@wowgmplayer That there is a cap on what is the maximum possible damage a spell can do, no matter how many targets. Example: Spell hits every enemy in range with power of 100. Cap is 1000. If there are 10 or less enemies, all of them take 100 damage. But if there are 11 enemies, they only take 1000/11 = 91 damage. If there are 20 enemies, they only take 1000/20 = 50 damage.
@@19Szabolcs91 ok i didnt even know something like this existed thanks for answering
Won't stop groups leveling all the way through dungeons
They already tried aoeing capping a while ago. It either got reverted or forgotten or eventually didn't matter. Its just another dumb way to try to make content last longer. As for life back into leveling zones. Oh yeah, even more people running around who will never talk to you unless they're trolling or want you to kill stuff for them.
Introducing a new player to it was such an amazing way of enjoying the game without stressing about the "oPtiMal LeveLiNg eXpEriEncE".
I introduced my then girlfriend of 5 years to play holy priest with my protection warrior, and it was unbelievable amounts of fun. Her first mount experience I will cherish more than mine, and her reaction to the environments, music and the attachment she grew to her character allowed me to experience the first timers that my nostalgia so craved, vicariously. She even told me about the WoW dreams she'd have after extended periods of play (something I remember from playing it as a child).
We broke up, IRL, leaving my slightly retarded, under leveled warrior to struggle killing a single mob without cooking, first aid or a pocket healer to help me through, like a mid 50s divorcee struggling to cook a meal.
Threw him off Thunder Bluff and stopped playing.
The reason I started playing Classic was because I wanted dungeons to take a while. I wanted to play with people who may not have the best gear, but who were committed to finishing a run even if we wipe a few times. But now everyone thinks a dungeon has to be done ax quickly as possible. You have to beg to stop and do content to complete a quest. Tanks assume that mana is in infinite supply. People leave group if the rare they want isn't in the dungeon. No one wants to play the game-they just want their stupid BIS gear.
Playing on Nostalrius was as you described, classic just attracted such a different player base.
Platinuming Dark Souls and Bloodborne changed me, made me a better player.
The fun challenge of fighting Orphan of Kos over and over is just like the Mage Tower Challenge and 5masking a Horrific Vision.
Becoming better and better at doing 5mask Horrific Visions is an awesome feeling.
Maybe people were just as nostalgic about a free exploration world experience just as they were nostalgic towards the game itself? Minmaxing kills the fun for many players, there's a new term called "toxic competitiveness" where most competitive players push others into their min/maxed meta and kill the fun for most. This effect actually comes outside of MMOs or even gaming in general and in the era of the Internet, you're either the absolute best, or just a nobody. Unless you've invented a field that got just into right place and time to get popular, whatever you do now you'll be compared to the min/maxers of your field, and things that would look like great achievements to your local community now will be just a subject to comparison, only to be found mediocre or even trivial. This makes people who can still have fun from simple things and re-teach that fun to others valuable.
The 2020 Gamer Mindset
It is more like the 21st centuary mindset - We live to win, not to live well. Just look all the helicopter parents and success story floating around. No one do things for experience, everyone does it for the thrill of winning.
I played classic on release, and sorta noticed the min-max mentality pretty early on when people realized I was a decent warrior tank. A ton of people added me to their friends list, and I was badgered to tank dungeons for groups that wanted to just spell/melee cleave spam dungeons constantly. It was an interesting experience the first few times I did the runs, but after a certain point I just wanted to actually play the game, so I started declining invites from those groups. I eventually hit max level, and experienced all the content the game had to offer at that point in time; and while I enjoyed my time, I kinda came to the conclusion that this was definitely not the kind of game I wanted sink my time into beyond the 1 or 2 months I spent on it at that point. Since I was playing a tank, I sorta felt like if I kept playing the game would have started feeling more and more like a chore as I attempted to keep up with the game, and make sure I was a prepared as I could possibly be for raids. Hell I was actually planning on making a second character specifically for farming/pvp purposes, just so I wouldn't have to respecc constantly on my warrior.
Even if it is technically the same game I played back when I was a kid, the game is a completely different animal compared to what it was back then. The whole wonder and mystery that fascinated me as a kid, and compelled me to log on every single day was gone. I think at this point I just want a new mmo that hasn't been min-maxed to oblivion, where I can sorta figure things out at my own pace, and not really feel like I am actively being punished for my lack of knowledge.
This video does a pretty fantastic job summing up a lot of the reasons why I dropped the game at the end of the day, and the points made in it are pretty applicable to a lot of long running games, not even just wow, or mmos in general. I appreciate the excellent content, good sir.
Great video from someone who loves and also understands the reality of WoW classic and all its issues :)
Ion's statements were made on Preach's stream and it needs to be put a little more into context. The reason people min/max now and are expected to is because of balancing. High end mythic raids require extreme amount of skill and getting every little bit out of a class. Heroic requires less, and normal less then that. The issue is that no matter where you are on that ladder at some point too many mistakes or poor game play means bosses don't die. By Min/Maxing players are able to allow themselves to make more mistakes and still down the bosses because they naturally do more damage or healing regardless of their skill. Sadly it's easier for someone to min/max then "getgud."
@Joe Alexander the thing is you can NEVER balance the game unless you want everyone to be one class with now talents. Just have cool downs with different timers makes the classes imbalanced. This is a multiplayer game so any choice someone makes will effect others. If too many people pick choices they "like" over whats best then at some point you can't kill bosses. Blizzard can balance for people picking "fun" but then people who min/max will call it too easy. If they balance high then people are forced to min/max. there is no way to balance this sadly.
Anyone wanting to step into a mythic raid near or close to release then its mostly expected the tuning for it will require dps/hps requirements that tie into both your class/covenant. It's already commonly known that classes get hard shafted from m+/mythic raids because balance/design. Never has blizzard balanced all class/spec inclusion in the hardest diffiiculties but now they are increasing that gap. I was a resto druid when uldir raid came out, resto druids had the worse overall healing at the time and it was almost impossible to get into a guild or a pug because of that. Now they either need to tune down the raids so this is no longer an issue or more so focus on class design/balance so things like that don't typically happen instead of adding more problems to the cause with covenants. Min/maxing is required because the content they make requires it.
@Joe Alexander If you think it's simple to balance you don't understand math AT ALL. I'm going to explain this so anyone can understand it. If you have one class with a 5 min DPS cooldown and another with 2 min cooldown then the 5 min CD should add more DPS then the 2 minute CD. If the 2 min CD adds 1,000 DPS the 5 min should add 2,500 to be balanced. However, what happens when all the bosses die in 2 min or less? Guess what it imbalanced because the 5 min CD will do far more damage than the 2 min one because the idea is you hit it more often. If ALL bosses in the game always died at the same time then yes you could balance it, but guess what, they don't. If you spent any time at all understand classes or the game you would know that. There are many classes that have talents that can lower their major cooldown like Army of the Damned for Death Knights. A fool will tell you it's a dead talent, however, a good player will tell you that the talent is good if the boss lives long enough to get another Army of the Dead off. That's just two classes, now you have 36 classes because every spec is treated as it's own class now. All of them with different cooldowns, talents, scaling on gear, multiple targets for DoT classes, the list goes on. Balancing the game can only be done in a closed environment when there are NO variables, that's something that people who claim "it's just math" prove they don't understand math at all. Math only works when you know ALL the variables. E=MC2 requires you to know the variables if you don't know E and M then you can't find the answer. This isn't rocket science it's basic math and I wish people who claimed "it's just math" knew even the slightest amount of it because making that claim. If you think the game is being simplified compared then you classic you CLEARLY haven't played retail in over 10 years. The gearing process is so complex now you HAVE to use a simulation to know what's going to do more damage because there is no one to track it in-game
The vagueness of those 'WoW should be Social' statements are probably why it won't change.
Also, the way we've evolved as gamers has also taken a social and gameplay aspect out of every game. LFG is a convenience really. And in terms of gameplay, we understand things a lot better,
Super casual here! I think the biggest problem is many people have zero patience. I love pugging, i find it way more fun than guild raids. In guild raids im just another grunt in line to get my items. In a pug you have 20 or 40 knuckle heads who have never met each other diving into an adventute. Thats my two cents.
I remember my boomer friends saying addons and macros were cheating back in the early 2000s. Now 20 years later they dont sound so crazy. We've been cheating fun.
I actually thought that For years now lol.
you shouldn’t call any boss easy if you killed him with Class and boss’s guides, dbm, some rotation addon and what Else that tells you what you have to do.
Should look up what cheating means. If English is your main language then I feel sorry for you.
macros are definitely cheating, you shouldnt be able with one button to do several actions, i fking hate them
@@OMGiTzSpAnKy i took some poetic license there. It seems that in the end, english isn't YOUR main language ;)
I don't see this as a bad thing. Personally i started playing from tbc so classic was a new game in a way. I'm lucky to play from the launch, and my first 60 was such an experience, didn't have addons, didn't read a thing, bunch of screenshots, pvp encounters that was fun, i loved every second i played the game then. I pledged to play like it was a new game till 60, and after i hit it, i started digging info, grinding pre bis gear. Planned what i can get or change, i got to get all the good items for best gear configurations lol, saw r10 items in my bis list, so i must get them, and i wont forget those times i grinded honor. When our raid group grew stronger and pretty geared up thats when minmax started, world buffs, consumables, every thing to make it better. Not everybody in a group were into that thing, some disagree with us, it's not a requirement tho, you're free to not get them, but guys who get those buffs, they do it cuz they love doing it, love getting those buffs, pumping big numbers. Leveled my main vanilla way, leveled my mage (since i never tried aoe farm) AoE and that was the funnest leveling experience i think. Everything i do in a game i make sure it's fun for me. People who think they forced to play the game in some ways but dont think they was given ways to play it will always feel like it's a restriction. I feel like its a libiration. But this is just my oppinion, idk if its unpopular or not.
The issue with your example is you are an extreme outlier how it usually goes is if everyone does have the exact meta they don't get to raid and if they do but aren't top of the charts they don't get loot if you make a mistake no raid next week for you if you make a second mistake no guild for you that's the more common reality
Watching this video, I'm glad that I never got into WoW Classic. I played "Vanilla" for the entirety of its lifespan back in the day since the release of the European Final Beta, I had my fill of it - and I most likely wouldn't enjoy the "optimized" version of it.
Looking back, it's actually crazy how clueless and non-optimized we were back then. I was in a pretty serious raiding alliance back then (we were made up of 4-5 guilds, though most were in the guild I was in) and we never used world buffs and rarely used flasks (we only really started using them once we were progressing on Chromaggus, IIRC, and then again when we were stuck on Huhuran and the Twin Emps). And we got "stuck" on encounters that seem laughably easy nowadays like Majordomo, Razorgore, Chromaggus, Nefarian and Princess Huhuran - for whatever reason.
And this is why I'm an awful gold farmer. Being a mage or warlock to easily do DM and mine the thorium seems to be one of the best grinds you can do - but I hate playing either class and just isn't fun - and fun is what I require to play a game, otherwise I'll just go do something else. Kinda cripples you when gold is a very important thing in Classic!
Do you like hunters? Because Hunter is can farm dire maul a lot better than mages or warlocks. Hunter's can effectively use their Hunter magic to skip entire dire maul North and just kill the king. If blizzard didn't change stuff compared to private servers you can easily make 200 gold en hour without even Leaving dire maul
Rogues have some pretty crazy options as well
As with everything, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle here. I don't agree with trying to min-max everything to the point of squeezing blood from a stone, but at the same time I recognise the importance of making an effort in a social game where my performance has a direct impact on those around me. If you have a super casual guild who wants to be able to clear content, a good portion of those players might not necessarily care if they're clearing BWL. They just get to play with their friends, and that's what matters to them. That's great for them, but it's not great for the other players in the raid who just want to be able to get it done. And it's frustrating for those people when the answer is largely just for the people who "don't really care" to actually spend an hour getting buffed up and paying attention when mechanics start happening.
I'm pretty firmly in the "semi-hardcore" camp, where I'm not 100% min-maxing everything that I can, but I try to play to the best of my ability with the tools that I have. As far as I'm concerned it's a courtesy to my fellow player to pull as much weight as I reasonably can when it makes for a smoother, faster experience for others, and a raid full of people who are on the same page is what can make the difference between a quick and easy raid, and a night where you wipe 10 times on the same boss and just can't make progress.
This is 100% why I love the roleplaying community > any raid/PvE/PvP one. It's far more social and heaps more chances to go around trying new things, explore, do old content for cool mogs for an RP campaign or helping people new to the game and seeing how they learn it in the absence of experienced players or guides.
This is also equally why it's easy for people nowadays to get upset with the "Top 5%" crowd because those and some of the casuals trying to aspire to be like them have optimised the fun out of the experience by making it all about numbers then wondering why Blizzard keeps making systems to cater to that rather than just making fun things.
Now come Shadowlands for Retail players, it's all about earning gear via weekly vaults rather than just doing content for mogs, pets, having fun etc. It's nice getting progress and seeing good gear drop for stats but it's also nice to do things for other reasons, too.
Imagine if we could Chanel this brainpower into actual issues 😂
We can never go back to those good old days ;-;
They weren't that good. They only seemed good because there was nothing better at the time. That's the problem with nostalgia; you only remember the good parts.
This is so insightful! Answers a lot of my questions about why so many people are boosting, using add-ons, and so on.
I really want to highlight how any time this topic is addressed, the prevailing rebuttal is always "Well just don't do things if they're not fun." It completely skips the point. In many ways, games can punish you for not conforming to metas and optimal strategies. So you become more likely to lose or more likely to be skipped over or more likely to be forced to do activities that aren't fun because you aren't doing the optimal strategy.
Think about Magic: the Gathering. If you are playing a Tier 2 deck in a tournament because you find it more fun than the Tier 1 alternatives, then you are more likely to lose. That's why your deck is Tier 2 and not Tier 1, it loses more often. So you're playing a deck you find fun, but at the cost of not winning as much. Considering that tournaments only reward winners, and losing feels worse than winning, you are now punished for playing the "more fun" deck.
This is why it is so important for game designers to reward players for completing tasks that are inherently fun and support game modes that are generally considered fun. This is also why it's important for game designers to restrict players from engaging in activities that are less fun. Is doing dungeon AOE mob grinding far more rewarding than questing? Then either limit the amount of AOE damage that can be done or make AOEs much more resource intensive or fix areas that allow for AOE exploits.
The problem, of course, is that WoW Classic is burdened by how they are unable to change elements of the game outside of the script, even if it would allow for more fun to be had. The developers are in a bad position. If they don't make changes, then people will optimize the game into the dirt and make the game far less enjoyable. If they do make changes, then the play base will be upset that they are going against the premise of the experiment (despite players no longer behaving how they did 15+ years ago).
While I do like to do my very best, I also allow myself immersion. For example, on my void elf rogue, I don't have "the best" talents, but I do have the ones that make me use the most void abilities so that I have a much higher enjoyment of playing the game. On my paladin, I often wear cloth shoulders because they match my plate set really well when I'm just around questing, etc.
I don't mind not being max DPS/Tank/Heals when it's just me in the world. I do, however, change these for group content, such as raids, RBGs, 2v2s, or M+.
I just started playing classic 3 days ago. I've killed millions of whelps, sold the flame sacs, and am now buying boosts.
Just stop, boosting is dumb
the raiding I think had a few massive problem in classic.
one it was a pain just to get to the raid. like first you had and more or less everyone had to do some kind of multi step quest to just enter said raid.
then you needed to run through a full dungeon just to enter the raid.
then the raid was a if the party knew what they was doing took out most of the trash and bosses (no sequence breaking and no walljumping shananiganse because half of the party could not platform good enouth on 10-15 FPS).
what I thing was needed was entry level raid where the player was lended a set of gear and some pots if they took the deal. the raid was short and not to hard to get though, said raid always was relevant at least as a catch up mechanic. the raid could then be difficult scaled (not in the boss getting harder but more in the style of giving the player more space to mess up whit).
Because as the RP guild I was in the amount of player that could raid was not that great I think in our guild of almost 200 players at max level (all whit between 1-2 player at max in the guild).
we had maybe 40 player that actually raided.
I raided maybe 5 times and the only reason why I raided was because my guild did almost weekly a for fun raid. where some vets whit good gear would lead who ever at max level that wanted together whit a few other guilds (aliance guilds) just so that the player could try it out and see if the liked it (and maybe catch up to the later raids).
it was still difficult (the 5-7 vets cant carry the whole raid but they did give us more wiggle room) for error.
10:24 there is just one problem whit the Iron man challenge and that is the fact no trading and no grouping up.
this kills any social aspect of the game. and as a none iron man player would just kill me interest in the game leveling.
seeing other player and none to interact whit.
Don't even play WoW anymore, but still watch every Video. Keep up the great work!
As a very casual player with many many alts I still enjoy leveling the normal way with all the meta imposed fuckery going on. Trust me, there are still new and likeminded players to your playstyle.
me too, but its pain in the ass to find group for dung, i do each dung once (quest run) and couldnt evne find group for bfd or rfk, its all sm boosts now
@@Quitarstudent If you do each dungeon multiple times, you can just level through dungeons. Each dungeon once allows you to do more quests and experience more of the world.
And heck, I've done WC twice. As an ally. If I can find a group for WC, surely you can too for BFD or RFK.
There is a guy on my server who has held GM the last 3 weeks. The first 2 weeks were planned with permission by the other rankers as he was helping other rankers out and didn't affect anyone's ranking progress but the 3rd week he did it by breaking brackets into bracket 13 and ended up pissing off a lot of people on the server. We are a very large server though and often have multiple players hitting rank 14 a week.
I think this goes to show how classic andy were just wrong in thinking that classic would be a totally different experience from retail socially because it’s less convenient systematically. And it turns out people just behave the same way.
I mean I haven’t played on classic for some time now. But compared to nost Kronos and some other servers with tbc or world content and the classic server when it started the retail playerbase is a bunch of socially inept autistic fucktards.
Dunno where y’all Been playing lol
parabel Classic is just a facade where people act nice because you’re morally obligated to because everyone is dictated by the rule of nostalgia and how being “nice” used to be the norm 16 years ago. No one really likes having to unnecessarily chat with people, they just want to get their stuff done. The classic playerbase reeks of pretentiousness and you can see right thru them that they are trying to be good because they’re forced to give a shit, whereas retail people just don’t give a shit at all because they can exist in an environment where everyone can do things on their own
@@braules im not even talking about being nice in particular. just interacting in general let it be shittalking about stuff, weird groping sexual harassment rp or racewar in world chat or being nice if you want lol.
thats what sets a lot of pserver communities apart let it be classic tbc wotlk or whatever. and thats exactly what was fun in classic when i started atleast havent played for a long time so dunno how its nowadays.
and yea lots of people are pushed into being nice by peer pressure. like you think this happening in classic is the exception? have you ever stepped outside your house or worked somewhere? :D
retail player and for what it seems if yall are right a lot of classic people aswell want a single player experience in a multiplayer game.
atleast thats what i get from this. then again there are lots of games that give you a better single player experience so dunno
The most baffling thing to me is why much of this didn't happen on private servers.
I played on Nost, and actually joined quite late - a year before its eventual shutdown or so. There was no concept of boosting. Leveling zones were fully populated. It wasn't an issue to find lowbie dungeon groups, and people were generally very chatty and social. Sure, people knew what they were doing very well in terms of raiding, gearing and so on, but it didn't feel nearly as.. elitist? as it is now. It was probably the best time in WoW I've ever had, including original vanilla.
So I really wonder, what changed? Why is the community so massively different?
There was someone in vanilla who held it for 6 months in hopes of getting rank 15 which was in the game files but not implemented.
I really just wanna get all my chrs ready for TBC
Everybody approaches leveling in Classic differently. The talent optimization guides are for endgame content. I? I have a hybrid arms 2h tanking spec. Does perfectly fine in dungeons. The whole "boost to max level" starts to be seen for 4th or 5th characters, never earlier than that. And so on.
At 0:41, well the reason ppl are trained to min max is because the game promotes it and encourages it.
If a game says "to earn gear, you need to do 10 quests each week, thats the limit."
Then i can do them whenever, from monday to sunday.
But when a game says "the more quests you do, the more gear you get, no limit."
Then they add some simple repeatable quests and some more difficult repeatable quests.
Then people will naturally go towards the more easier one to make it go faster.
Or if you have games, where there is no gatekeeping or limits.
And its a HEAVILY gear dependent game, then ye naturally you want to try to stay as far ahead as possible.
So you don't get stomped in pvp.
Love all of your videos, thanks for continuing to make them! Just as a thought, not even about the video itself because it's lovely, but is there a way to get closed captioning easily on these? If it's not easily accomplished I'd be thrilled to assist in any way I could. Either way thanks again!
UA-cam has an option to turn captions on.
I find it's still social I helped a guy in splinter tree last week that needed up in me and my buddies forming a group to run bfd last at night on our alts. It's so fun questing and running dungeons with people.
the only preparation for the classic launch i did was to watch your "was it any good though" videos
My pre launch prep was putting together the perfect early-mid 2000s numetal and hardcore playlist to nolife too. Good times. :)
Those quotes are just so awfully true. Pure developers wisdom there.
It might sound stupid, but it's just the way it is. If you can't change it (and you can't), then you have to learn how to deal with it. And that's exactly what this is about.
Can't change human nature. Not in a short amount of time. Certainly not in a game (where people hide in anonymity).
It's sad, but true.
Yet once you accepted it, that's one big step towards solving the problem. Basically.. that's the one sole reason games have rules ;-)
Back in the day all the raiders from the top guilds were famous now nobody even knows the names of players pushing speed clear times.
Idc about them.
In the other hand, being a Rank 14 will guarantee you being famous ^^
@@SayrosGO i dont know single rank 14 from my realm even though i do play a lot and ive met quite few, unless youre part of bracket discord for your realm, you wont even know, this is why rank 14 players are sorted to "generations" now, meaning that 1st generation of 14 rank players are higher on "social ladder" by hc players, because they had grind way more
They are still famous in current wow. People like gingi, sco, rogerbrown, trill, max (GM of limit) etc. are all quite well known
@@joshyman221 Famous in current retail wow is not the same as being famous in classic. Nobody can name players in the top classic speed clear guilds.
when you get people unironicaly pushing you to play certain way for what is barely a 1% increase in dps thats the moment it becomes obnoxious
I wonder how would that work if they create content that is not optimisable. A weekly instance to do with friends that throws random encounters at you, so it rewards good thinking and what tools you use that is available for you in that moment
Right now I'm doing a permadeath "Solo Ragefire Adventure" with a Orc Warlock with crafting/leveling timings and hitting all the Searing Blade quests and semi-optimizing doing all the other quests / grinds / professions / town runs / etc to gear up before hand... no AH, no outside help (I'm even thinking of having skinning for a bit to get a few pieces of leather before dropping it... hmm). Finish all the quest, kill all the bosses, and hit all the gear goals before such and such level... I'll tell you what that is when I stop dieing.
“You think you do, but you don’t”
I really like the idea of alternative "game modes" for Classic. The Ironman challenge that Kargoz introduced, for example, is brilliant.
I also feel like a full server reset cycle could be the ultimate version of class. The server reset loop is one of the best parts of the private server scene as far as I can tell.
Classic isn't about new content. It's more about experiencing old content... over and over again. If it doesn't repeat itself in some way (like though speed leveling challenges or server resets), then it will simply die.
For me classic was about starting over and going through the story again. Hoping we get as much classic expansions as possible. I leveled slow, did all quests, read all of them (unfortunately couldnt find a coherent story), collect blacksmithings patterns and farmed almost all reps to exalted. The social aspect and raiding (including minmaxing, since were the top guild on my server) is all a means to an end - I want to do the content. I cannot wait for 25/10 man raids though.
"Has anyone ever been rank 14 for longer than 1 week in WoW's history?"
Let me introduce you to Longarms, my server's most infamous Hunter.
Also, I think Soren's quotes and this larger discussion are very true for most games. I certainly fall into the optimization trap. However, for games that place focus on immersion, I find myself actively avoiding optimization and embracing suboptimal "fun." Whenever I play Morrowind (my favorite game of all time, I replay it once a year), I find a new archetype or build I've never tried before and try to play in accordance with my character's personality and backstory. There are so many ways to break Morrowind and make oodles of gold or potions that turn you into a god, but I actively choose to avoid those options for the same of immersive fun.
While I love Classic, I will admit that raids turned out to be a big disappointment for me. The combination of lack of challenge and the huge player numbers means there is (as you observed) little room or reason to socialize. Now, I do still run raids casually with PUGs, or I tag along with a friendly guild who needs bodies, or I'll join GDKP for gold, and we have fun bantering usually (one of the GDKP runs I frequent distributes cores through a trivia system) but I don't try to knock out my ZG/MC/BWL every week. I realized that people looking to get ZG/MC/BWL every week so they don't "miss out on gear" is EXACTLY the same as people doing weekly or daily chores in retail so they don't "fall behind", and that retail grind is why I left 8.3 (what a trash patch!).
So I finally settled on making 5-man tanking my endgame as a Paladin. I do pick up raid pieces here and there but my gear is mostly blues or BoE items. I enjoy being able to use a big chunk of my class kit in interesting ways. I like the challenge of having to play well and work around a lack of taunt. My next (and probably last) big goal is full Tier 0.5 Soulforge just for the sake of getting it. Then it will be making money in preparation for TBC.
Greatest achievement I unlocked in classic was on Light's Hope.
Clear Gnomer with 4 dps and no tank/heals.
Still some of the most fun I've ever had playing wow
The thing was not all private servers were like Classic has turned out to be. I played Vanilla, TBC, and WOTLK private servers and none of them were like Classic. Everyone new the class meta but no one was toxic about it or the way they played.
Idk, I think that classic is really just not a very good game which forces players to make their own fun. It’s showing it’s age a bit so people use things like speedruns and parses to wring some more enjoyment out of its battered corpse. I guess I just have a less negative viewpoint in optimizing than most people do
It's an unfixable problem so to some degree I wonder what the purpose of even debating it is? It's inherent to MMOs, a built in problem we have to make the best of.
I think you can fix it if your MMO have much different concepts. (As for WoW you are probably right.) For example if you create an MMO where power is more related to social hierarchy just like how a guild leader can be a ret paladin in a raid, or like IRL a king can have the best armor even if he is not the best fighter. You can have spells what are more skill based. You can make choices permanent, like your faction and class in WoW.
I played WoW classic for a month, going in solo. Went opposite of what I did in vanilla, opp faction, gender, class: orc warrior to female human priest (w/a male name). I found that all the lore I learned since helped me get way more immersed in the story and quests. I saw the conservative nature of Alliance as evil and was at first put off (e.g. purging kobolds for fear of them potentially being a future prob), but then ran with it. I was now a priest that smites and did shadowy evil stuff, not really roleplaying with speech but through attitude, going on expeditions with groups to kill Van Cleef (interesting story about that, and Westfall) and such. Having such a good idea about the lore beforehand gave me a whole diff experience, compared to my past ignorant self. It's like seeing a book get turned into a movie or game. Each NPC had some sort of role. If I killed some murlocs, I'd be seeing it as raiding their home. I'd watch them, before hunting them like a predator, rather than simply seeing it as grinding, farming, and chasing quest objectives. I'd look at their hovels and wonder what the platforms were for... then I'd run up and stand on it, and do random stuff like using it as a diving board. I'd note what was in their treasure chest, what loot they had, as if there was a reason for it...
My interest did fall off when I ran into min-maxing mages and I kept getting ganked at around level 45. I recall struggling to do some robot escort quest in Tanaris, and getting invited by mages, who I grouped with before, who were doing some zombie graveyard AoE grind thing in ZulFarrak, teaching me all the glitches like running in to hide behind boxes to reset aggro. Met the mages doing cath, and couldn't find a tank, getting a weird mage group that AoEd the "trash". I recall sitting by the ZF entrance waiting, watching the HP of group members already deep inside go down, and then deciding to pass time by mind-controlling some trolls at the front and learning their different strengths and abilities. Didn't know how to get to them on my own until they guided me (with deaths, cause I had increased aggro range being lower level)
My class fantasy was a blacksmith warrior, but now to keep up with regular classic raiding I have to spend more or about the same time on my mage alt just to keep gold coming in to pay inflated mats and consumes from the AH.
There's a thesis that states that art does not stop in the moment the artist presents somethings but continues on endlessly from perspective to perspective, shifting and changing it's meaning however one feels like it could be. I feel like this applies to games aswell, which makes it condescending to me when a developer tells me where the fun is supposed to be instead of them allowing the playerbase to be the judge of that.
Speaking of community content, I started an arena tournament on my server where teams could enlist and have 3v3 fights in the STV arena. We're not a huge server, but I didn't expect only 4 teams to sign up. I even shelled out 500g for the prize pool. I think people are just not interested in content that doesn't give them a "proof" of whatever content they have beaten. Like you said with wrath and achievement points, only when something is measurable in that way will it be popular.
Totally agree with that idea about optimizing the fun away. Grinding my hunter to Rank 13 in pvp, I saw time and time again Ret paladins turned away from groups because they were a meme spec - off meta. Same for shadow priests and some druids. It's kind of a shame that certain specs are rendered unplayable by social stigma.
By social stigma? Mate, playing a ret or spriest in bgs is just selfish. There are 9 other people who show up to win and get fast honor, but these people only care about playing some useless spec. If you wanna play a meme spec don't do it in BGs.
@@domerame5913 and like that you just proved the guy's point
@@Zee3577 How so? Winning a bg is fun, if someone is a crutch to the team because he plays a useless spec it's not fun. If i win and you lose, who is having fun? You or me?
@@domerame5913 So you're saying that a player should give up it's own freedom of choosing how he wants to play the game for the sake of seeing a magical number go up faster?
@@Zee3577 Bgs are competitive. If you wanna play a bg group, it's not the place to roleplay as an auto attack bot. If you play something that is useless, expect to be treated as such. You can choose to play a useless spec, but why should people take you into their group? Premades are not a safe space for 30 year old roleplayers, so if you want a group you need to put in the effort that the 9 other people do.
did...did you just call the Civ games RTS?
according to steam, every game that has any degree of strategic play is an RTS.
the entire genre system for games is broken
While leveling my holy priest in classic, I play FFXIV's MSQs on the second monitor. They both compensate each other's boring aspects... XD
On the contrary, if the most effective way to play a game isn't fun, then that's a development failure. You can't create a goal-oriented game and not expect players to perfect it over time, because achieving those goals is fun.
If anything Classic is the best-case scenario because the most effective way to play isn't the -only- way to achieve the end-game goals. You can class-stack and get all world buffs and consumables, and it only means you'll kill things more quickly. But as we've seen that hasn't stopped players from doing meme runs of naked onyxia, druid MC, pally MC, etc.
In retail WoW there's much less room for players to be carried. Players can still make their own fun such as "40 Mage" runs of Heroic Nyalotha, 40 tank runs of H Nyalotha, Rextroy soloing bosses in Normal Nyalotha. Though arguably there's still metagaming involved as you're still expected to have certain gear/spec/corruptions even if you're not approaching the content in a way that was intended.
You'll be hard-pressed to create a game with win-conditions and expect players to be okay with always losing because they're having fun doing it. That just doesn't happen.
except WoW in it's classic form isn't really a goal orientated game if you are thinking that you misunderstand sandbox games at their core they give you goals as shit to do but they aren't the core objective no the core objective is the journey to the goals ie the quests you complete the enemies you fight and the friends you make along the way
Optimization is inevitable. People like to optimize and play as efficiently as possible. The only time fun is optimized out is when a dev makes it that way. The corruption vendor+echoes of ny'alotha is the perfect example of that. To be optimal you need to farm 10k echoes for essences at least, and let's say 55k echoes for corruption which the one you want comes up and goes on cycle for a month. Not to mention you need to buy malefic cores up to cap resistance which cost 2k echoes per. The best way to farm this currency is playing 2's at 1200-1400 rating at 40-70 per match which involves a lot of dropping rating. There is no reason for this system to be so blatantly toxic towards players (It's made so that even the casual has to play hardcore if they want to stay relevant). This is just one currency it doesn't even scratch the surface of azerite farming and the nature of gear trading. When optimization becoms unfun that's the devs fault not the players. Essences should be account bound, cloak corruption resist should be account bound , and corruptions should be able to be disenchanted into a permanent enchant you can talk to mother to apply it to any piece of gear.
But.... "player engagement"
People told themselves for 16 years that Classic was the most hardcore gaming experience ever and that nothing else amounted to it. The obsession of optimizing a game made for windows XP comes from people needing to rationalize this mindset they've carried with them for the better part of two decades.
Vanilla was considered the “casual players” mmo when it came out compared to other games of the time.
And yet, what % of the playerbase had contact with MMOs pre-wow? 5? 10?
The majority opinion is the most vocal one, as always
Lavabear120 You’re very off.. definitely way more than 10%. Anecdotally, nearly all my friends at the time had experience in other mmo games. Wow was far from being the first, but it did accomplish the most. I’m assuming you were too young to know back then which is why you ride the wave of popular opinion.. zoomers these days..
@@GScotJohnson Yet people have been going on for years about how classic was hard and "retail babies couldnt even reach level 10" etc.
The game comes out and it's a 1 button rotation snooze fest. The OP is actually pretty accurate regardless of whether it was considered to be casual in 2005.
@@GScotJohnson Nah he's pretty close, another considered very popular MMO back in the day, that released almost 2 years prior was Final Fantasy 11 which had around a million subscribers.
to have fun you must ignore the meta and discover the game yourself.
I think one thing that's kind of overlooked in the old versus new player meta is the impact of Twitch/UA-cam and streaming in general. Back in the day the best players might release like three or four 15ish minute videos a year. Now you have UA-camrs that will churn out a 30 minutes hearthstone video daily. Similarly to shit like Instagram I feel like gamers are always comparing themselves to a nearly impossible standard. I mean in vanilla there were guilds that absolutely crushed content even though the vast majority of guilds spent most of their time in Molten Core all the way up until TBC. The thing is I never saw those guilds or had access to those individuals outside of occasional poorly recorded boss kill videos. With Twitch people are literally often watching the top 0.1% of players in games like League of Legends, Fortnite etc.. It has to have had an impact on the way people optimize and their desire to do so.
I played a bit during WoW beta, got my own account a few weeks after the launch of vanilla. I was in middle school when I started and played constantly throughout that time and high school. I was always a fan of the private server community but kept up with retail until Cataclysm. I really got into Nostalrius until that was gone, and the entire time after Vanilla officially went away I was hoping for classic realms to be officially supported. When they announced classic I was super hyped. But as the hype train got going i really started paying attention to the theorycrafters and realized that although this would be more or less what I remembered as a kid and wanted to go back to, I realized that the entirety of the experience would be different because of the player base. Those who were the most hyped were no longer coming out of UO or Lineage, they were coming from much more complex games that required more intimate knowledge of game systems and efficiency. We wouldn’t be a bunch of bumbling idiots failing upwards, we would smash down old barriers with significantly less than was required originally. I wouldn’t be able to try and fail until I figured out a raid, every aspect of everything necessary to win was one search away. It really killed the mystique of the game. I never subbed to classic, and unfortunately I don’t know if I ever will. I think, for as much as I hate him for saying it, Brack was right. I thought I did, but I didn’t. Not because of the game itself, but because gamers have become a much different community than they were at launch.
Before wow vanilla so many things were different. Players were not as organized and the data about the game was zero. I used to be able to destroy people in pvp with my Lock, not because of my skill (unfortunately) but because of my knowledge. Same with my Rogue etc.. It came down to knowing what fight to pick, what the best spec and items were, and then a tiny bit of talent. I would analyze stats to find the tiniest of improvements. Do that over and over and it adds up. Rogue with mongoose though was just OP though. And a Blood Elf with mongoose, due to to the silence was incredible. Start your stunlock, they break out for any reason, or you think they are close, just arcane torrent and those mages can't blink etc.
This video made me think i look cool when i stay on Baron Geddon during inferno :P
Times are just different now, people dont play games for a experience we play it to beat another player to prove you are better and to win. Thats where the enjoyment comes from so obviously you are going to play optimally. Losing isnt fun