Great video! I switched my crossbow bolts over to a 550 gr bolt (including a 150 gr Tuffhead 3 blade broadhead) and was really pleased and surprised with the results. Less noise, vibration, and my groups tightened up. Field point flew exactly the same as the broadheads too. It's amazing to me how silly people act if you give information on a different setup then they use.
The vast majority of Archery big game shots are within 20 yds. And you see many pass throughs. You fellas are taking this to extremes rarely seen in real hunting situations. None the less, it is an interesting and educational video. Thank you.
Man, we had a blast hanging out JJ! Thanks for hosting and Troy and I are looking forward to getting together again soon. I'm not sure if we talked about this but the testing I've done recently, shooting from a rest with an arrow gun in low wind conditions out to 40 yards, showed that with field points there's not a lot of difference in accuracy or precision between low (3%), medium (13%), and high (24%) FOC arrows. They all follow the same trajectory when the wind isn't blowing. BUT BUT BUT when we changed the field points out with fixed blade broadheads of the same mass, the low FOC arrows completely missed the target, while the high FOC arrows hit near (but not exactly) where the field points hit. Which goes to show, we shouldn't assume that a field point-equipped arrow will fly the same as one with a broadhead even with the same FOC. All that to say, we should never assume, but always practice with the actual broadheads we plan to hunt with.
@@timl8302 Troy hasn't posted the broadhead portion of that test yet. OBE I'm afraid. I'll remind him and we'll see if we can get that on the RF channel this spring. Thanks for the reminder.
Great information and it helped me decide what I would do with my bolts on my Excalibur420 but I had a hard time hearing the conversation through the music background.
If you already have heavy shafts, just lightening up the broadhead makes it worse because youre going for a heavy set up. For this to be correct, use a heavy arrow with a heavy broadhead, and then a lighter arrow with a 100gr broadhead. That would be the best way to see the difference. KE difference between light set ups and heavy set ups.
Doesn’t seem like a significant difference for a hunter. 140ft*lb of KE at 50 yards is going to pass through basically everything there is to hunt. I’d take the flattest shooting arrow that will pass through. Any extra KE or momentum after it’s out of the back side of the animal is irrelevant. Guys hunting with 40Ft*lb of KE bows are getting pass through shots on deer. Short of maybe a big bear or other large game looking to eat/stomp you I’m not really sure the point of more KE than the base setup gets you. I do love seeing the raw data though and it being collected with accurate tools.
There was a old guy back in the late 80s in Michigan at a place called Krugin’s archery. The overdraw craze was in full bore and I was young up n comer. I just had to have that fast overdraw with the short arrows and he set me on the right path with the same analogy used here accept he used getting hit with a bowling ball vs. a tennis ball. I’m glad I listened because my buddies lost more deer in two seasons then I cared to count. I was shooting a pse thunder flite or something with thunder head 125 broad heads and a heavy arrow I think I was at around 180 fps and getting pass throughs.
That data is priceless, as most people cannot afford a labradar. Especially, for that exact TenPoint crossbow. I so hope I am chosen as the winner in the giveaway! The larger, general finding about high FOC and heavy broad heads can be applied to every crossbow. Thank you so much for doing this.
Great video and superb analysis of all things arrow flight! I loved that you included the Ranch Fiery because he's the heavy arrow and FOC guru! I'm thinking about a compromise now for my crossbow season and settling in at 125 gr. for this Fall. Maybe next year moving up to 150 grains next year! Thanks for sharing this great information.
It only takes 35 ft pounds of kinetic energy to ethically harvest a whitetail deer at 30 yards . So why do I need to build a heavy weight crossbow bolt that delivers 150 plus foot-pounds of KE when a 100grain tipped bolt will have more then enough to get the job done and have a MUCH flatter trajectory?
This is the video I've been waiting for! I've been waiting for someone to do these tests with crossbows. Thanks so much for this! The only thing missing is momentum numbers for the other two arrow weights at 50 yards. Could you provide those, Jeff?
Thank you for posting this. I saw ranch fairy’s video he posted with his compound bow testing a week or so that he did at your place. He mentioned the crossbow but never showed anything in his video. Was hoping it would be with the havoc I’m about to win.
@@brandonyoung7760 Hey Brandon - just saw your message last night for some reason. I can't find the sheet that I wrote the data on, but fortunately, at around the 16 min mark, we say all the info we need to back calculate what the velocities were at 50 yards. We say the mass of the arrow, and the KE at 50 yards, so all we have to do is plug in the formula KE50 = 1/2 Mass * Vimpact *Vimpact. Or rearranging, V50 = SQRT (2*KE50/M). Now all the units have to match, so we have to convert grains to slugs for the arrow masses, but it's straight forward after that. For 50 yards, I get: (100 gr: Vlaunch= 443.4fps, V50=399fps) (150 gr: Vlaunch=421.1fps,V50=391.2fps) (200gr: Vlaunch= 401fps, V50=378fps).
I think this was very scientific and objective right up to the point where it became subjective. I admit, I am new to hunting (2nd year) and I just got my first crossbow yesterday. That admitted, I am also an engineer by degree. Engineering is "Applied Science". So let's talk application here. Take that analogy about getting hit by a feather or a golf ball... - That's just nonsense in this context because what's being evaluated is a very minute difference in weight of arrows.... so minute it has to be measured in Grains like gunpowder... So what we're talking about here in reality is more like the difference between say an arrow, and an arrow with 2 coats of latex paint. The discussion and EVIDENCE should center around "What is the practical, real world, measured difference in a hunting context." My suspicion is that the actual effective difference in hunting results is quite negligible between a 100gn and 200gn arrow tip. We're talking the difference in a bird feather and a turkey feather here... Being scientific, as a wild guess, I just grabbed three different ink pens out of my cup and put them on my gunpowder scale. Pen 1 = 219.8gn. Pen 2 = 276.4gn. Pen 3 = 346.6gn. That's a spread of 126.8 grains. Holding the lightest pen in my hand and the heaviest, I can just *barely* discern the weight difference... And that's the difference we're making a fuss over here? I'm pretty sure Jason Bourne would be lethal with all of these ink pens... I'm pretty sure I would not notice the difference in how those pens feel if they were shot into me from a 350-450 fps crossbow. It would suck, and I would be damaged, period. I can see how having a front heavy arrow can make flight and grouping more stable and thus more consistent, but as your 1.78" grouping confirmed.... again, negligible. the grouping only moved 6" from lightest to heaviest arrow. What's the entry vector differential and measured arc differential between the heaviest and lightest arrows? Likely negligible... I'm not arguing with the overall physics concepts, but again, we're talking about minutia here, not the difference in a feather and a golf ball and not the difference in a tennis ball and a bowling ball.... I just found another channel's video and they compared 100gn, 155gn and 200gn broadhead penetration tests on ballistic gel (I know, not an animal but I guess they didn't have a spare animal laying around?). All the way up to 50yds, not meaningful penetration difference. The results actually varied. Sometimes they were all the same, in one case the 155gn beat both the 100gn and 200gn. That's the kind of inconsistency I would expect to see in a real hunt with all of the variables involved, even inside an animal there is variation in muscle density, amount of fat, thickness/toughness of hide, etc., etc. What does seem to be a worthy discussion is quality of broadheads: how robust the steel is so they don't break off in an animal, how stable they are aerodynamically for shot placement consistency, how reusable to keep costs down, how about edge retention for repeated use.
Heavier arrow and broadhead ..Is it harder on the crossbow? Also what could be the best broadhead set up for a 360 ish ft ps crossbow. Tks for the video very informative.
Very informative!!! I’m new to archery. I’ve Got a question about arrow weight. What about those tubular inserts that add weight to the entire shaft of the arrow? I’ve read that’s less stress on the entire arrow. Would that result in the same effect (flight characteristics, accuracy etc) as using a heavier broadhead or putting a heavier broadhead insert up front? I’m asking about high speed crossbows if that makes any differences. I’m eyeing and saving for a 10 point Nitro 505 with an Oracle scope. Appreciate any help. Thanks
Very interesting, as someone thinking about deer hunting with modern speed bow, they have the accuracy and penetration for killing at greater distance so that doesn't seem to be an issue but how much does time to target limit an ethical shot? are the heavier arrows fast enough for 50-60-70-80 yards? Speed of sound and reaction time of you target animal should give you a ball park for a given speed? That would be interesting to test.
Good video glad you got the ranch fairy and rocket man to help with your testing. Was you shooting field tips or broadheads in your tests? Shooting around 475 grain arrows "bolts" and my crossbow is quieter and its easier on the longevity of the crossbow.
When all 3 blow through the target why should we prioritize penetration over speed? Does the rocket man ever add weight to his rockets? Not fuel just weight, think lead or concrete.
Blowing through a practice target isn't the same as a blowing through an animal - those are two different things. Yes, rocketeers do add weight to get the center of gravity more forward, because it adds to stability.
I still try to get a fast bow so I can use a heavy arrow and have more ke and momentum. I know for deer sized game, it doesn’t matter too much but for elk and moose which I go after every year, it’s just an insurance policy.
I can't argue with that. I think the key is finding the heaviest weight that you can also pull when you're cold, tired and in a bad drawing position, as often happens when hunting.
Extra weight can improve flight stability, reduce noise and vibration. It does not change the KE Equation. Do the Math. The only Variable Factor is Fletching. A slow heavy Arrow shot out of the same bow has the same KE as a Faster Lighter Arrow shot out of the same bow. It's that Simple. I'll stick with Speed. Gets there before it drops. Makes Ranging much easier. More forgiving to misjudging Range. Shoot the Heavy Arrow and get it's Speed=Slow. Run the Speed and Weight through Easton's KE Calculator. Shoot the Faster Lighter Arrow. Get It's Speed. Run the Speed and Weight through the Calculator. There will be very little difference in KE between setups. You have nothing on a Good IBO Setup with Your Heavy Slowness. You're on the 20 Yard Feild Target Level.
I figured this out eventually after being setup by a "pro shop" with light, fast arrahs ( in case I wanted to go Elk hunting with my compound...) After having penetration issues I've switched to 200 grain heads=much more better👍 just ordered 150 grain solid 3 blades for ease of sharpening AND will make my bow quieter👍👍 Love me some Fairy Dust.
Why didn't you show the improved penetration from your testing? I heard a lot of talk and numbers but you really didn't show any honest results at the target.
Since the advent of 400ish crossbows using a Swhacker 100 grain 2" cut. (400 gr. tw bolt), fast flat & accurate always a 2 inch exit many deer down & quick works good for me, imho. -W. Liggett
I just told all 4 of my mounts that they can get down, also all the deer and hogs in my freezers they are free to go since my lighter arrows obviously don’t kill them. Seriously though, the flipping entire premise is that our ancestors used heavy FOC arrows to increase penetration….. yeah cuz those bows are SLOW. It’s like naval artillery from the age of battleships or hell even SRBMs meant to engage ships, you are essentially lobbing your arrows into the target so you want gravity to aid in that slow trajectory to gain penetration…. How? By increasing FOC. But a speeding flat shooting munition or arrow negates the need for that by blowing through using speed alone. They both kill and neither one kills more deader. There may be a time for heavier arrows absolutely but whitetail in KS ain’t it imo.
If someone buys a crossbow and uses a 150gr broad head instead of a 100gr. When he sighs the crossbow in with the fixed scope then the 20 , 30 , 40 and 50 yard lines will not work. He has to spend more money on another scope that will work for the heavier arrow.
The lighter the arrow/bolt/bullet the more speed it will retain in flight. The heavier the arrow/bolt/bullet the more energy it will retain in flight. Generally you'll want to use lighter projectiles for smaller game and heavier projectiles for larger game. If I hunt rabbits I'll definitely use the 100 grain, or lighter, but for deer/boar/bear I'll definitely go with the 200 grain. Overall the video was well done and entertaining and I agree with the end results yall declared.
Actually the heavier arrow has a smaller percentage of speed loss over all ranges. Due to the heavier arrows being able to absorb a much higher percentage of the bows energy due to the higher amount of mass in a heavier arrow
What happens if you hit the shoulder or heavy bone? You may hit the right spot every time because may be you are a machine but rest of us are human. We're not gonna hit perfect every time.
Shoot what you feel comfortable with. I would try at least a 400 to 420 grain arrow. I shoot 425 grains. I have a 27.5 draw. I have 50 grain brass inserst upfront. I added them just for a little extra punch. I was at 450 grain but, had to much drop for my liking. I went down to 360 grain / 380 grain. Then decided I wanted little more and chosen the middle at 425 grain . That's with a lighted knock.
Why 16" arrows? Aren't 20" mostly standard with about every tenpoint bow? Right there you are 4" shorter than standard which is really gonna be a light arrow and not super realistic on what guys are going to hunt with. Evo x centerpunch 20" are 360 grains without a tip.
But the main problem with this is crossbows DO NOT have penetration issues. A 425gr arrow at 360fps is gonna blow through anything in North America at BOW HUNTING ranges. YOU CANT GET MORE OF A PASSTHROUGH THAN A PASS TRHOUGH.
I've seen many people try to prove heavy arrows penatration but no one can prove that it makes that much difference cardboard and jell lease then a 1/2 in difference
My 125 grain grim reaper blasted through the shoulder blade of a mule deer at 60 yards leaving the "barrel" at about 385 fps.... And that's a mechanical....
That heavier weight for an average scope would be rough ! It would change all your site lines or bubbles in the scope ! Thinking most scopes go to 70 to 80 yards ? Had my Barnett ghost 415 revenant ,at 40 yards, with a 100 grain , blew right thru a hip bone & another bucks shoulder & out his right leg with no prob using a grim reaper !! Arrow blew thru all of that , not sure about a 60 to 70 yards ? I don't set my sight up for ever 10,20 30 & so on , I shoot dead 10-30 with first bubble 2nd bubble 40 than have to skip next bubble for 50 , than the rest of the bubble line up at 60 & 70 yards, having to many lines & having to count them to get to your yardage target spot sucks ! , Most shots are done from 10 to 40 yards !! Least in the woods ! Open field would be different , more wind
yea, but you don't have to use the exact stadia lines.. and you have the option of adjusting the magnification which will space out the stadia line in the scope. I find exactly where my arrows are hitting at each range, then mark it on a piece of athletic tape, that i then stick on the stock for quick reference.
This heavy arrow/bolt and extreme FOC fad is just the latest in a long line of such trends to try and convince people they need to buy shit that they don't actually need. If you are shooting a traditional recurve bow (not crossbow) that doesn't generate much speed and is typically a 20 yards and in weapon, then by all means go heavier for the slight increase in penetration or up your FOC for MAYBE better arrow flight. But crossbows work differently, and their bolts don't have to flex around the riser like arrows do with a recurve or longbow. If your current crossbow is having trouble blowing a 425-grain bolt through deer, then here is my advice. Look the crossbow over for a few potential warning signs. First, if the date of manufacture says 1827 then perhaps it's time to consider an upgrade. Also, if you see the words Hasbro, Playskool, or Mattel written anywhere on your crossbow take it back to the store where you bought it and tell them that this time you want one that didn't come from the toy section. Most modern crossbows will spit a 425-grain bolt out at anywhere from 320 to 380 fps. Some are way faster than that. But sticking with the range I listed that's 96 to 136 ft pounds of kinetic energy. 40 ft lbs. of KE is enough to get a pass through on deer with the right broadhead. My advice to anyone experiencing penetration issues with a modern crossbow would be to first reconsider what broadhead you are using. I am by no means anti mech head but some of the cutting diameters on them are reaching ridiculous proportions. You do not need a head that opens to 2 or more inches to kill deer. Drop back to a head with about a 1 1/2-inch diameter at most. Grim Reaper makes a great crossbow mech head that size. Still having issues? Then use a good flying fixed had like a Slick Trick. There is ABSOLUTELY no need to use a 22-inch section of rebar with weight tubes and a 200 grain broadhead in order to achieve some ridiculous front of center rating that is of no practical benefit. All you will do is frack up the trajectory of your bolt setting you up so that a slight misjudgment in range will be a lot bigger deal than it would have been otherwise. Not to mention throwing off all the aiming points in your scope.
BASICALLY U CAN HAVE A FEATHER 🪶 & A GOLF BALL BOTH ARE TRAVELING AT A SPEED OF 55MPH IT'S HARDER TO STOP THE GOLF BALL THAN THE FEATHER EVEN THOUGH BOTH TRAVELING AT SAME RATE OF SPEED ... THIS IS METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING !
Not going to say heavy arrows are good or bad But will say I strongly believe the main reasons our ancestors made large or larger heads out of flint vs smaller heads was again IMO #1 It's a helluva a lot faster and easier to take a big chunk of flint and make it into a bigger more well ballanced head head that flies well than a significantly smaller arrow head #2 Our ancestors who were shooting long bows that shot flint tipped arrows at 1/4 to only at best 1/3 rd the speeds of todays bows and arrow head sizes had minimal affect on arrow accuracy #3 our ancestors were shooting bows I seriously doubted resulted in very cery vey compleat pass throughs meaning the arrow stayed in the animals they shot tge overwhelming majority of the time leaving if anything on average no better and likely worse blood trails than todays ultra high tech broadheads do and were by absolute necessity expert trackers and if they fatally wounded an animal odds were very good they would find it I do not see any real viable parodies or comparisons between ultra modern archerys compound bows, carbon arrows metallic broadheads and centries old archery equipment Basically again IMO you're trying to compare the capabilities of a WW1 Bi-plane fighter with a F-22 Raptor. I shoot consider a heavy arrow out of my compound vertical bows but NOT for added penitraition and not because my bow shot them more accurately but because I got better arrow and my compound shot the more CONSISTENTLY accurately
very little down sides? over weight arrows are 99.9% down sides. you are just wasting more energy when your arrows bury in the dirt an extra inch, and you are missing all the benefits of lighter arrows.
This topic is beyond bizarre. So everyone can range within 1 yard and everyone has perfectly clear shooting lanes for the cast of a arrow. Also animals reaction times vary from animal to animal. The slower a arrow gets to a animal with quick reaction time the more it misses the mark.. too say a high foc arrow is the best option for hunting is complete nonsense.. all this has become is a group of people with bad experiences and 99 percent of them blames equipment instead of learning from what they did wrong..
Well I'm sorry I've been shooting bows since early 80s. Before crossbows were legal to hunt with at least in pa. I've always used 100 GR. Broadheads and killed everything I shot. And loved aluminum arrows I still do. I'm not impressed with carbon much. But now I'm shooting crossbows. Carbon express 330, killer instinct ripper 415, center point sniper 370, center point patriot 425. Walmart cheap carbon express bolts under $5 each. Broadheads I shoot the Allen broadheads from Walmart, montec g5, mechanical swackers, grim reaper mechanical all 100 GR. 20 to 75 yards no problems. I fill all 7 deer tags every year. One buck and 6 doe. My bows are all sighted to 100 yards my deer don't go more than 30 or 40 yards and that depends on which broadhead I use or it won't even go 20 yards. My bows do what any thousand dollar bows do kill. I proved It to my friends and others with the low end bows I shoot and bolts and they all go hunting with me and see it. I fill my 7 tags with no problem with under $400 dollar bows and really not expensive scopes either. Killer instinct lumex speed ring scopes, hawk xb1, hawk xb30, love these scopes. 2 of these bows were already tested and shot by others out to 250 yards and popped balloons filled with baby powder and still had penetration enough to kill a deer. All my bolts go straight through all the deer I shoot. I'll stay with what I've been using it works and kills deer I'm good with that. Even my amo for rifles and muzzleloaders I shoot 250 GR and it kills deer at long distance. Each its own though. I have a good idea though let's have a shoot out with low price bows up against those $2000 dollar bows. Now that would be fun. My family and friends threw their ten points and wicked ridge and raven bows out. Yep they shoot bows from Walmart even Barnett got nice good crossbows. Just saying. These bows hasn't failed any of us yet. Even my old crossbows like all my Hortons and Barnetts I sold all of them to people $100 each and they still kill deer every year. Come on guys. Geeze. Lol.
Great video! I switched my crossbow bolts over to a 550 gr bolt (including a 150 gr Tuffhead 3 blade broadhead) and was really pleased and surprised with the results. Less noise, vibration, and my groups tightened up. Field point flew exactly the same as the broadheads too. It's amazing to me how silly people act if you give information on a different setup then they use.
The 31" 2413 logs with 150 grains heads that I was using in the late 80s taught me this lesson. Arrow go through deer....lol
Good man!!!
The vast majority of Archery big game shots are within 20 yds. And you see many pass throughs. You fellas are taking this to extremes rarely seen in real hunting situations. None the less, it is an interesting and educational video. Thank you.
Man, we had a blast hanging out JJ! Thanks for hosting and Troy and I are looking forward to getting together again soon. I'm not sure if we talked about this but the testing I've done recently, shooting from a rest with an arrow gun in low wind conditions out to 40 yards, showed that with field points there's not a lot of difference in accuracy or precision between low (3%), medium (13%), and high (24%) FOC arrows. They all follow the same trajectory when the wind isn't blowing. BUT BUT BUT when we changed the field points out with fixed blade broadheads of the same mass, the low FOC arrows completely missed the target, while the high FOC arrows hit near (but not exactly) where the field points hit. Which goes to show, we shouldn't assume that a field point-equipped arrow will fly the same as one with a broadhead even with the same FOC. All that to say, we should never assume, but always practice with the actual broadheads we plan to hunt with.
I saw the field point test video. But, I missed the broadhead version. Fascinating results. Keep up the good work!!!
@@timl8302 Troy hasn't posted the broadhead portion of that test yet. OBE I'm afraid. I'll remind him and we'll see if we can get that on the RF channel this spring. Thanks for the reminder.
@@DigtoDef Sounds great!
Great information and it helped me decide what I would do with my bolts on my Excalibur420 but I had a hard time hearing the conversation through the music background.
If you already have heavy shafts, just lightening up the broadhead makes it worse because youre going for a heavy set up. For this to be correct, use a heavy arrow with a heavy broadhead, and then a lighter arrow with a 100gr broadhead. That would be the best way to see the difference. KE difference between light set ups and heavy set ups.
Love the video. Question: which is better for deer hunting, a heavier arrow set-up or a heavier broadhead (FOC)?
1st time seeing this video. Great to information!
The ONLY negative comment I have is the loud background music. Hard to hear. Thanks
i appreciate the feedback!!
Doesn’t seem like a significant difference for a hunter. 140ft*lb of KE at 50 yards is going to pass through basically everything there is to hunt. I’d take the flattest shooting arrow that will pass through. Any extra KE or momentum after it’s out of the back side of the animal is irrelevant.
Guys hunting with 40Ft*lb of KE bows are getting pass through shots on deer. Short of maybe a big bear or other large game looking to eat/stomp you I’m not really sure the point of more KE than the base setup gets you.
I do love seeing the raw data though and it being collected with accurate tools.
There was a old guy back in the late 80s in Michigan at a place called Krugin’s archery. The overdraw craze was in full bore and I was young up n comer. I just had to have that fast overdraw with the short arrows and he set me on the right path with the same analogy used here accept he used getting hit with a bowling ball vs. a tennis ball. I’m glad I listened because my buddies lost more deer in two seasons then I cared to count. I was shooting a pse thunder flite or something with thunder head 125 broad heads and a heavy arrow I think I was at around 180 fps and getting pass throughs.
So what would be a good tough broadhead for crossbows then fixed broadhead not mechanicals?
That data is priceless, as most people cannot afford a labradar. Especially, for that exact TenPoint crossbow. I so hope I am chosen as the winner in the giveaway! The larger, general finding about high FOC and heavy broad heads can be applied to every crossbow. Thank you so much for doing this.
Фхх🔫🔫🔫🔫🔫
Great video. I'm about to buy my first crossbow so this really helps me decide my initial purchase.
Great video and superb analysis of all things arrow flight! I loved that you included the Ranch Fiery because he's the heavy arrow and FOC guru! I'm thinking about a compromise now for my crossbow season and settling in at 125 gr. for this Fall. Maybe next year moving up to 150 grains next year! Thanks for sharing this great information.
you're welcome!
It only takes 35 ft pounds of kinetic energy to ethically harvest a whitetail deer at 30 yards . So why do I need to build a heavy weight crossbow bolt that delivers 150 plus foot-pounds of KE when a 100grain tipped bolt will have more then enough to get the job done and have a MUCH flatter trajectory?
This is the video I've been waiting for! I've been waiting for someone to do these tests with crossbows. Thanks so much for this! The only thing missing is momentum numbers for the other two arrow weights at 50 yards. Could you provide those, Jeff?
Thank you for posting this. I saw ranch fairy’s video he posted with his compound bow testing a week or so that he did at your place. He mentioned the crossbow but never showed anything in his video. Was hoping it would be with the havoc I’m about to win.
You young folks are the ones who fell into the speed trap. A 30. Inch 2219 pushing a 180 grain rothaar snuffer is a killing machine
Troy legit has the best shirts in the business :P Great info guys, couldn't agree more.
What was the FPS @50yards between the 100,150 & 200gr?
Guess I don't get a answer.
@@brandonyoung7760 Hey Brandon - just saw your message last night for some reason. I can't find the sheet that I wrote the data on, but fortunately, at around the 16 min mark, we say all the info we need to back calculate what the velocities were at 50 yards. We say the mass of the arrow, and the KE at 50 yards, so all we have to do is plug in the formula KE50 = 1/2 Mass * Vimpact *Vimpact. Or rearranging, V50 = SQRT (2*KE50/M). Now all the units have to match, so we have to convert grains to slugs for the arrow masses, but it's straight forward after that. For 50 yards,
I get: (100 gr: Vlaunch= 443.4fps, V50=399fps) (150 gr: Vlaunch=421.1fps,V50=391.2fps) (200gr: Vlaunch= 401fps, V50=378fps).
I think this was very scientific and objective right up to the point where it became subjective. I admit, I am new to hunting (2nd year) and I just got my first crossbow yesterday. That admitted, I am also an engineer by degree. Engineering is "Applied Science". So let's talk application here.
Take that analogy about getting hit by a feather or a golf ball... - That's just nonsense in this context because what's being evaluated is a very minute difference in weight of arrows.... so minute it has to be measured in Grains like gunpowder...
So what we're talking about here in reality is more like the difference between say an arrow, and an arrow with 2 coats of latex paint. The discussion and EVIDENCE should center around "What is the practical, real world, measured difference in a hunting context." My suspicion is that the actual effective difference in hunting results is quite negligible between a 100gn and 200gn arrow tip. We're talking the difference in a bird feather and a turkey feather here...
Being scientific, as a wild guess, I just grabbed three different ink pens out of my cup and put them on my gunpowder scale. Pen 1 = 219.8gn. Pen 2 = 276.4gn. Pen 3 = 346.6gn. That's a spread of 126.8 grains. Holding the lightest pen in my hand and the heaviest, I can just *barely* discern the weight difference... And that's the difference we're making a fuss over here? I'm pretty sure Jason Bourne would be lethal with all of these ink pens... I'm pretty sure I would not notice the difference in how those pens feel if they were shot into me from a 350-450 fps crossbow. It would suck, and I would be damaged, period.
I can see how having a front heavy arrow can make flight and grouping more stable and thus more consistent, but as your 1.78" grouping confirmed.... again, negligible. the grouping only moved 6" from lightest to heaviest arrow. What's the entry vector differential and measured arc differential between the heaviest and lightest arrows? Likely negligible...
I'm not arguing with the overall physics concepts, but again, we're talking about minutia here, not the difference in a feather and a golf ball and not the difference in a tennis ball and a bowling ball.... I just found another channel's video and they compared 100gn, 155gn and 200gn broadhead penetration tests on ballistic gel (I know, not an animal but I guess they didn't have a spare animal laying around?). All the way up to 50yds, not meaningful penetration difference. The results actually varied. Sometimes they were all the same, in one case the 155gn beat both the 100gn and 200gn. That's the kind of inconsistency I would expect to see in a real hunt with all of the variables involved, even inside an animal there is variation in muscle density, amount of fat, thickness/toughness of hide, etc., etc.
What does seem to be a worthy discussion is quality of broadheads: how robust the steel is so they don't break off in an animal, how stable they are aerodynamically for shot placement consistency, how reusable to keep costs down, how about edge retention for repeated use.
Great stuff. Thank you for your input!
John Lusk, Lusk Archery Adventures has many youtube videos on broad head durability
Heavier arrow and broadhead ..Is it harder on the crossbow? Also what could be the best broadhead set up for a 360 ish ft ps crossbow. Tks for the video very informative.
Very informative!!! I’m new to archery. I’ve Got a question about arrow weight. What about those tubular inserts that add weight to the entire shaft of the arrow? I’ve read that’s less stress on the entire arrow. Would that result in the same effect (flight characteristics, accuracy etc) as using a heavier broadhead or putting a heavier broadhead insert up front? I’m asking about high speed crossbows if that makes any differences. I’m eyeing and saving for a 10 point Nitro 505 with an Oracle scope. Appreciate any help. Thanks
Very interesting, as someone thinking about deer hunting with modern speed bow, they have the accuracy and penetration for killing at greater distance so that doesn't seem to be an issue but how much does time to target limit an ethical shot? are the heavier arrows fast enough for 50-60-70-80 yards? Speed of sound and reaction time of you target animal should give you a ball park for a given speed? That would be interesting to test.
Good video glad you got the ranch fairy and rocket man to help with your testing. Was you shooting field tips or broadheads in your tests? Shooting around 475 grain arrows "bolts" and my crossbow is quieter and its easier on the longevity of the crossbow.
When all 3 blow through the target why should we prioritize penetration over speed? Does the rocket man ever add weight to his rockets? Not fuel just weight, think lead or concrete.
heavy bolt increase lifespan of the limbs
Blowing through a practice target isn't the same as a blowing through an animal - those are two different things. Yes, rocketeers do add weight to get the center of gravity more forward, because it adds to stability.
I got a bulldog 400 excalibur going to shoot 200 grains up front and should be getting about 350 fps but it will be so hard hitting be unreal!
I still try to get a fast bow so I can use a heavy arrow and have more ke and momentum. I know for deer sized game, it doesn’t matter too much but for elk and moose which I go after every year, it’s just an insurance policy.
I can't argue with that. I think the key is finding the heaviest weight that you can also pull when you're cold, tired and in a bad drawing position, as often happens when hunting.
The end summary was great! This is coming from a non-nerd. Thanks for a good time.
Extra weight can improve flight stability, reduce noise and vibration. It does not change the KE Equation. Do the Math. The only Variable Factor is Fletching. A slow heavy Arrow shot out of the same bow has the same KE as a Faster Lighter Arrow shot out of the same bow. It's that Simple. I'll stick with Speed. Gets there before it drops. Makes Ranging much easier. More forgiving to misjudging Range. Shoot the Heavy Arrow and get it's Speed=Slow. Run the Speed and Weight through Easton's KE Calculator. Shoot the Faster Lighter Arrow. Get It's Speed. Run the Speed and Weight through the Calculator. There will be very little difference in KE between setups. You have nothing on a Good IBO Setup with Your Heavy Slowness. You're on the 20 Yard Feild Target Level.
I figured this out eventually after being setup by a "pro shop" with light, fast arrahs ( in case I wanted to go Elk hunting with my compound...) After having penetration issues I've switched to 200 grain heads=much more better👍 just ordered 150 grain solid 3 blades for ease of sharpening AND will make my bow quieter👍👍 Love me some Fairy Dust.
150 grain for Turkey. 200 for Whitetail💡
Hmm ive never had penetration issues at all with 100 grain 2in expandables
Until you hit a bone also look at you brodhead after the shot guaranteed it's mangled
Why didn't you show the improved penetration from your testing? I heard a lot of talk and numbers but you really didn't show any honest results at the target.
Did Troy ever shoot the crossbow???????? Again awesome video.
Since the advent of 400ish crossbows using a Swhacker 100 grain 2" cut. (400 gr. tw bolt), fast flat & accurate always a 2 inch exit many deer down & quick works good for me, imho. -W. Liggett
I just told all 4 of my mounts that they can get down, also all the deer and hogs in my freezers they are free to go since my lighter arrows obviously don’t kill them. Seriously though, the flipping entire premise is that our ancestors used heavy FOC arrows to increase penetration….. yeah cuz those bows are SLOW. It’s like naval artillery from the age of battleships or hell even SRBMs meant to engage ships, you are essentially lobbing your arrows into the target so you want gravity to aid in that slow trajectory to gain penetration…. How? By increasing FOC. But a speeding flat shooting munition or arrow negates the need for that by blowing through using speed alone. They both kill and neither one kills more deader. There may be a time for heavier arrows absolutely but whitetail in KS ain’t it imo.
You are becoming one of my favorite streamers
Thanks amigo!
If someone buys a crossbow and uses a 150gr broad head instead of a 100gr. When he sighs the crossbow in with the fixed scope then the 20 , 30 , 40 and 50 yard lines will not work. He has to spend more money on another scope that will work for the heavier arrow.
The lighter the arrow/bolt/bullet the more speed it will retain in flight. The heavier the arrow/bolt/bullet the more energy it will retain in flight. Generally you'll want to use lighter projectiles for smaller game and heavier projectiles for larger game. If I hunt rabbits I'll definitely use the 100 grain, or lighter, but for deer/boar/bear I'll definitely go with the 200 grain. Overall the video was well done and entertaining and I agree with the end results yall declared.
Actually the heavier arrow has a smaller percentage of speed loss over all ranges. Due to the heavier arrows being able to absorb a much higher percentage of the bows energy due to the higher amount of mass in a heavier arrow
Do away with the continuous background music please
I get pass throughs on deer reliably with sub 360gr total weight.
What happens if you hit the shoulder or heavy bone? You may hit the right spot every time because may be you are a machine but rest of us are human. We're not gonna hit perfect every time.
Shoot what you feel comfortable with. I would try at least a 400 to 420 grain arrow. I shoot 425 grains. I have a 27.5 draw. I have 50 grain brass inserst upfront. I added them just for a little extra punch. I was at 450 grain but, had to much drop for my liking. I went down to 360 grain / 380 grain. Then decided I wanted little more and chosen the middle at 425 grain . That's with a lighted knock.
Great video. Wish you had added in the 125 grain just since it is very common and much easier to.fimd than 150+. Maybe next time. The Sevr 2.0 125.
Why 16" arrows? Aren't 20" mostly standard with about every tenpoint bow? Right there you are 4" shorter than standard which is really gonna be a light arrow and not super realistic on what guys are going to hunt with. Evo x centerpunch 20" are 360 grains without a tip.
But the main problem with this is crossbows DO NOT have penetration issues. A 425gr arrow at 360fps is gonna blow through anything in North America at BOW HUNTING ranges.
YOU CANT GET MORE OF A PASSTHROUGH THAN A PASS TRHOUGH.
I've seen many people try to prove heavy arrows penatration but no one can prove that it makes that much difference cardboard and jell lease then a 1/2 in difference
Deer are very thin skinned and not tough.
A bow doesn’t kill with KE does with blood loss.
an arrow can't kill via blood loss if it doesn't make it through the shoulder. but yea, agreed. damn near anything will work on a whitetail.
I FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURERS RECOMMENDATIONS ON MY PARTICULAR CROSSBOW NO ISSUES!!
Great but heavier is more forgiveness on your limbs Fact!
Great video….but the background music was very distracting.
I learned this in 1989 shooting a 228 fps Horton
Put holes in n out,out to 35 yrds
What is 100grains mean is it weight
Yes that is the weight of your broadhead or field tip. Multiple grains available
My 125 grain grim reaper blasted through the shoulder blade of a mule deer at 60 yards leaving the "barrel" at about 385 fps.... And that's a mechanical....
I personaly don't shoot and recommend anything less than 125 grain broadhead. Go for 'Magnus stinger.'
That heavier weight for an average scope would be rough ! It would change all your site lines or bubbles in the scope ! Thinking most scopes go to 70 to 80 yards ? Had my Barnett ghost 415 revenant ,at 40 yards, with a 100 grain , blew right thru a hip bone & another bucks shoulder & out his right leg with no prob using a grim reaper !! Arrow blew thru all of that , not sure about a 60 to 70 yards ? I don't set my sight up for ever 10,20 30 & so on , I shoot dead 10-30 with first bubble 2nd bubble 40 than have to skip next bubble for 50 , than the rest of the bubble line up at 60 & 70 yards, having to many lines & having to count them to get to your yardage target spot sucks ! , Most shots are done from 10 to 40 yards !! Least in the woods ! Open field would be different , more wind
yea, but you don't have to use the exact stadia lines.. and you have the option of adjusting the magnification which will space out the stadia line in the scope. I find exactly where my arrows are hitting at each range, then mark it on a piece of athletic tape, that i then stick on the stock for quick reference.
My crossbow is 410fps I’m shooting 400 grain bolt and a 200 grain head. My choice of broadhead is 200 grain Afflictor 4 blade.
400 grain bolt I'm shooting 100gr broadhead , 370gr bolt I'm shooting 150gr i try get it over 500gr
Iam going 200 grain and I am going to make it work 30 yards and in,really should be. Deadly
yazzzz!
Great info
I would say shop placement is more important
This heavy arrow/bolt and extreme FOC fad is just the latest in a long line of such trends to try and convince people they need to buy shit that they don't actually need. If you are shooting a traditional recurve bow (not crossbow) that doesn't generate much speed and is typically a 20 yards and in weapon, then by all means go heavier for the slight increase in penetration or up your FOC for MAYBE better arrow flight. But crossbows work differently, and their bolts don't have to flex around the riser like arrows do with a recurve or longbow. If your current crossbow is having trouble blowing a 425-grain bolt through deer, then here is my advice. Look the crossbow over for a few potential warning signs. First, if the date of manufacture says 1827 then perhaps it's time to consider an upgrade. Also, if you see the words Hasbro, Playskool, or Mattel written anywhere on your crossbow take it back to the store where you bought it and tell them that this time you want one that didn't come from the toy section. Most modern crossbows will spit a 425-grain bolt out at anywhere from 320 to 380 fps. Some are way faster than that. But sticking with the range I listed that's 96 to 136 ft pounds of kinetic energy. 40 ft lbs. of KE is enough to get a pass through on deer with the right broadhead. My advice to anyone experiencing penetration issues with a modern crossbow would be to first reconsider what broadhead you are using. I am by no means anti mech head but some of the cutting diameters on them are reaching ridiculous proportions. You do not need a head that opens to 2 or more inches to kill deer. Drop back to a head with about a 1 1/2-inch diameter at most. Grim Reaper makes a great crossbow mech head that size. Still having issues? Then use a good flying fixed had like a Slick Trick. There is ABSOLUTELY no need to use a 22-inch section of rebar with weight tubes and a 200 grain broadhead in order to achieve some ridiculous front of center rating that is of no practical benefit. All you will do is frack up the trajectory of your bolt setting you up so that a slight misjudgment in range will be a lot bigger deal than it would have been otherwise. Not to mention throwing off all the aiming points in your scope.
BASICALLY U CAN HAVE A FEATHER 🪶 & A GOLF BALL BOTH ARE TRAVELING AT A SPEED OF 55MPH IT'S HARDER TO STOP THE GOLF BALL THAN THE FEATHER EVEN THOUGH BOTH TRAVELING AT SAME RATE OF SPEED ... THIS IS METAPHORICALLY SPEAKING !
"He looks normal". Hahaha!
Not going to say heavy arrows are good or bad
But will say I strongly believe the main reasons our ancestors made large or larger heads out of flint vs smaller heads was again IMO
#1 It's a helluva a lot faster and easier to take a big chunk of flint and make it into a bigger more well ballanced head head that flies well than a significantly smaller arrow head
#2 Our ancestors who were shooting long bows that shot flint tipped arrows at 1/4 to only at best 1/3 rd the speeds of todays bows and arrow head sizes had minimal affect on arrow accuracy
#3 our ancestors were shooting bows I seriously doubted resulted in very cery vey compleat pass throughs meaning the arrow stayed in the animals they shot tge overwhelming majority of the time leaving if anything on average no better and likely worse blood trails than todays ultra high tech broadheads do and were by absolute necessity expert trackers and if they fatally wounded an animal odds were very good they would find it
I do not see any real viable parodies or comparisons between ultra modern archerys compound bows, carbon arrows metallic broadheads and centries old archery equipment
Basically again IMO you're trying to compare the capabilities of a WW1 Bi-plane fighter with a F-22 Raptor.
I shoot consider a heavy arrow out of my compound vertical bows but NOT for added penitraition and not because my bow shot them more accurately but because I got better arrow and my compound shot the more CONSISTENTLY accurately
Turn that background music down some, its louder than the dudes talking
very little down sides? over weight arrows are 99.9% down sides. you are just wasting more energy when your arrows bury in the dirt an extra inch, and you are missing all the benefits of lighter arrows.
Please turn the music down for us old people!
Thank you
Ya didn't take into account string jump. Deer love to (about 90%) jump the string. Watch your aimpoint... I hate mechanical broadheads.
This topic is beyond bizarre. So everyone can range within 1 yard and everyone has perfectly clear shooting lanes for the cast of a arrow. Also animals reaction times vary from animal to animal. The slower a arrow gets to a animal with quick reaction time the more it misses the mark.. too say a high foc arrow is the best option for hunting is complete nonsense.. all this has become is a group of people with bad experiences and 99 percent of them blames equipment instead of learning from what they did wrong..
Y'all need to lower your background music in your videos. The blaring country music makes it hard to hear what everyone is trying to say.
ok
12 deer, 4 bear and 1 cougar in 4 years say you're wrong. Maybe it isn't the broadhead.. Maybe you're the problem.
Well duh on a gun bow but use a compound...
It's the same concept, just higher numbers with the crossbow.
Too long. Get to the point.
Why xbows suck!
haha!
desperate for content
Well I'm sorry I've been shooting bows since early 80s. Before crossbows were legal to hunt with at least in pa. I've always used 100 GR. Broadheads and killed everything I shot. And loved aluminum arrows I still do. I'm not impressed with carbon much. But now I'm shooting crossbows. Carbon express 330, killer instinct ripper 415, center point sniper 370, center point patriot 425. Walmart cheap carbon express bolts under $5 each. Broadheads I shoot the Allen broadheads from Walmart, montec g5, mechanical swackers, grim reaper mechanical all 100 GR. 20 to 75 yards no problems. I fill all 7 deer tags every year. One buck and 6 doe. My bows are all sighted to 100 yards my deer don't go more than 30 or 40 yards and that depends on which broadhead I use or it won't even go 20 yards. My bows do what any thousand dollar bows do kill. I proved It to my friends and others with the low end bows I shoot and bolts and they all go hunting with me and see it. I fill my 7 tags with no problem with under $400 dollar bows and really not expensive scopes either. Killer instinct lumex speed ring scopes, hawk xb1, hawk xb30, love these scopes. 2 of these bows were already tested and shot by others out to 250 yards and popped balloons filled with baby powder and still had penetration enough to kill a deer. All my bolts go straight through all the deer I shoot. I'll stay with what I've been using it works and kills deer I'm good with that. Even my amo for rifles and muzzleloaders I shoot 250 GR and it kills deer at long distance. Each its own though. I have a good idea though let's have a shoot out with low price bows up against those $2000 dollar bows. Now that would be fun. My family and friends threw their ten points and wicked ridge and raven bows out. Yep they shoot bows from Walmart even Barnett got nice good crossbows. Just saying. These bows hasn't failed any of us yet. Even my old crossbows like all my Hortons and Barnetts I sold all of them to people $100 each and they still kill deer every year. Come on guys. Geeze. Lol.