The Lost Early History of Unitarian Christian Theology - by Dr. Dale Tuggy
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2013
- Dr. Dale Tuggy of State University of New York (SUNY, Fredonia) presents an illuminating analysis of the Theology/ Christology of four key writers of the 150 CE -- 250 CE period. Dr. Tuggy demonstrates that they were "unitarian" in their view of God rather than Trinitarian. The writers considered are Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Origen. This is a presentation not to be missed by serious students of the history of post-biblical Christian theology.
ALSO SEE - Who Do You Say I Am? - by Dr. Dale Tuggy - • Jesus Asked, "Who Do Y...
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Very good "historical" presentation Dale. Informative to those with a decerning ear
Excellent study.
Great job, Dale!
The only Trinitarians before the fourth century were Caesar, Jezebel, Pharoah and Nimrod.
Irenaeus announced in the second book, chapter 28, point 5, that the Word is the Father, and declared in the fifth book, chapter 6, that the Son and the Holy Spirit are the hands of the Father, meaning that they are manifestations of the Father.
That’s not what the Bible uses anthropomorphic language for.
Ireneaus saying that to a Jew a Jew would agree, as to be the hand of god is to be a ruler in his stead or represen, just as Moses and the spirit of god within him or the Kings of Israel or prophets would also have been his hands for their time, the apostles by delineation of being Jesus “hands” would be the fathers hands as well.
It’s called agency, not literal incarnationalism
We don't worship stones, God commanded us to have one place to pray towards and its the first house of worship built by Abraham PBUH using black stone, please reconsider what you believe in, you are here for reason.@patriceagulu8315
@@nazareneoftheway3936
Brother, I wrote the reference from the words of Irenaeus, so please provide the reference for your words
Humans are created and of course they are agents, and this is what the book mentioned, but in the thought of the Trinity, the hypostases are equal and cannot be agents, so Christ in the Old Testament was called the arm of the Lord, meaning an appearance of the Lord, because the angel of the Lord is an angel of His presence, as in Isaiah 63.
I am surprised the ebionites and nazerenes were not primary mentioned. These Greek minded men from 150-250 AD were already so far removed from the faith of the Apostles. Obviously historically we know many burnings of 1st century writings were eliminated by the Roman Catholic Church and others hostile to the true faith of the Messiah and his 12 apostles.
12:00 psalm 82 tells us whoever becomes a son of god becomes a type of god, who represents rules and judges for the most high god, Jesus quotes as much about him and the Pharisees and John.
So makes sense if Justin martyr is using the term that way.
❤
Interesting information about Plato and early groups.
Trinity,man made material
@9:22 - so now You claim to know what Justin Martyr was thinking based on him using a Plantonic argument? That's a bit of a stretch. I understand why You do it though, without Your conjecture it would appear that JM is explaining The Trinity.
You have a presupposition, so must infer that into what You quote rather than reading it plainly.
THE TRINITY IS NOT BIBLICAL
@@weknowthetruth6863 Neither is Unitarianism. It doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible (much the same as the word "Trinity" doesn't).
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit all identified as God, however, is throughout Scripture.
@@paulgundrum9059 UNITARIANISM IS THE ENTIRE BIBLE! 1 GOD MADE UP OF ONE BEING NOT THREE! YOU HAVE NEVER READ THE BIBLE! JESUS IS NOT GOD!
@@weknowthetruth6863 Wow, Your all-caps convinced me, lol.
Genesis begins with The Father, The Word of God (i.e. Jesus Christ) and The Holy Spirit. Have You not read the beginning of The Bible?
@@paulgundrum9059 you ADDED 💩 that wasnt there! Genesis begins with THE FATHER and the wind (translated as SPIRIT) wind in Hebrew also means Power. God and his Powers.
There is NO TRINITY! IF THERE WAS THE JEWS WOULD HAVE REPORTED IT
*_"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD._*
*_And the Word was made FLESH, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth._*
*_No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten GOD (Theos), which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."_* (John 1)
*_"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the FLESH, is not of God; and such is the spirit of Antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come, and even now already it is in the world."_*
Can't get any clearer than that: a spirit that denies that Jesus is the Word of God AND God manifested in the FLESH is Antichrist.
That's you, people.
Congrats!
J 1:1 … better to read it in the Greek. The second reference to ‘god’ has no definite article, so it is properly translated as ‘a god’ or ‘divine’, not ‘The God’ or ‘GOD’. Hundreds of scholarly translations read that way.
@@Mandellhouse So Jesus is a lesser God, huh? How many gods do you believe in?
@@Mandellhouse John states loud and clear that a spirit that denies that Jesus is the Word of God and GOD manifested in the flesh is antichrist.
@@Mandellhouse It's a lying spirit which explains your comment.
@@Mandellhouse Noahide,
I have a question for you.
*_Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will DWELL in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain. Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age._*
*_And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also._*
*_Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will DWELL in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will DWELL in the midst of thee"_* (Zechariah)
Who is Yahweh of hosts saying here that he will come and DWELL in the midst of his people - the Father or the Son?
Christianity is a funny sort of religion, isn't it ? Lots of brain teasers & paradoxes. More moving parts than a Swiss watch.
Unitarians versus Trinitarians
Uniterians in heaven but trinitinian in hell fire .
@@adnanben784 The truth is it's exactly the other way around.
*_"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD._*
*_And the Word was made FLESH, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth._*
*_No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten GOD (Theos), which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."_* (John 1)
*_"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the FLESH, is not of God; and such is the spirit of Antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come, and even now already it is in the world."_*
Can't get any clearer than that: a spirit that denies that Jesus is the Word of God AND God manifested in the FLESH is Antichrist.
That's you, people.
Congrats!
@@V_George unfortunately this is wrong !
@@adnanben784 Clearly you are wrong and you are an antichrist.
Read it again.
*_"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD._*
*_And the Word was made FLESH, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth._*
*_No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten GOD (Theos), which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."_* (John 1)
A spirit that denies that Jesus is the Word of God AND God manifested in the FLESH is Antichrist.
That's you, people.
@@adnanben784 Jesus is Yahweh God of Israel who along with two angels came to Abraham in Genesis 22 to have a meal together.
Jesus is Yahweh of hosts speaking in the 1st person in Zechariah 2:8-11,
*_"For thus saith the Lord of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye._*
*_For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me._*
*_Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord._*
*_And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee."_*
"And since they are compelled, they agree that some Scriptures which we mention to them, and which expressly prove that Christ was to suffer, to be worshipped, and[to be called] God, and which I have already recited to you, do refer indeed to Christ, but they venture to assert that this man is not Christ. But they admit that He will come to suffer, and to reign, and to be worshipped, and to be God;" (Dialogue ch. 68)
"And David predicted that He would be born from the womb before sun and moon, according to the Father's will, and made Him known, being Christ, as God strong and to be worshipped." (ch 76)
etc etc
« You have understood from the scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and is said to be, another God and lord subject to the Creator of all things ; Who is also called angel, because he announces to men that the Creator of all things - above whom there is no other God - what He wishes to announce to them [...] »
📖 • ‹ Dialogue with Trypho › chap. 56
Justin Martyr is a unitarian
Jesus was NEVER called God by ANYONE. And isaiah 53 is NOT about Jesus
@@weknowthetruth6863 Au contraire!
In John 20:28 Thomas says TO Jesus, "Ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou." This literally translates as "The Lord of me and THE GOD of me."
The Greek immediately prior to this statement is, "Apekrithe Thomas kai eipen auto", which literally translates as "Answered Thomas to him [i.e. Jesus]".
Note that Thomas does not use God's name in vain but directs this claim to Jesus i.e., that Jesus is the God of Thomas.
I've got more of these.
The Watchtower has lied to you.
@@weknowthetruth6863 As for your complete misunderstanding of Isaiah 53, this passage calls for an 'asham' sacrifice. This, like the other main sin offering, has to be without blemish, according to Torah stipulations. See Leviticus chapters 5-7.
Would you like to tell me what other person was sinless i.e., perfect, other than Jesus?
@@lesliewilliam3777 Jesus said to Mary Magdalene in John, “I am going to my Father and your Father, to MY GOD and your God”
God has a God? No!
Jesus said to the Jews in John, “You are looking for a way to persecute me, a MAN sent by God”
God is a man and sent Himself meanwhile God is in Heaven answering His man self’s prayers? NO!
Jesus said to the Jews in John, “You have NEVER HEARD GOD’S VOICE NOR SEEN HIM”
So you’re saying Jesus is God and God is talking to the Jews standing in front of them saying they’ve NEVER heard God’s voice nor seen him yet Jesus is God both talking to them and they’re looking at him.
NO!
Jesus is the SERVANT AND MESSENGER of God. But Jesus says in John, “No SERVANT is greater than his master. And the Messenger is NOT greater than the one who sent him”
Jesus is NOT God
@7:30 - word concept falacy. Ranks didn't necessitate "lower than status" . Defining terms by today's culture and in a different language may not have been what Justin Martyr meant.
Unitarian Socinianism originated from Gnosticism and Protestantism.
Only in your imagination.
Ken from clubhouse?
The incarnational sonship and the unitarian sonship positions are unbiblical heresies! The Father is Eternal, so his Son is also Eternal not created.
THE TRINITY IS NOT BIBLICAL ! Jesus WAS created! “The First BORN of all CREATION” he was CREATED
How can the term "son" eternal?
@@weknowthetruth6863 When was Jesus created?
@@matts.6558 “When” is a word finite minds use to describe another creation, “time” and therefore it is utterly impossible to describe “when” Jesus emanated from the one true God because it was before space-time was made. The closest we have to understanding this is the kabbalah.
@@NickSandt I couldn't disagree more. Jesus is uncreated, He is eternal the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Read the Bible, couldn't be more clear. But ago ahead Nick, keep fighting against God and His Son, keep telling people Jesus is created, you are heaping coals on your head for your impending doom. You don't have to...
Arians were and will always be non Christian heretics
If you say so! Even Constantine was baptised by an Arian.
@@Mandellhouse ok, so what does that supposed to mean and what significance does it hold?
There aren’t authentic historical proofs that tell which bishop baptise Constantine. Even if it was an arian bishop, Constantine still leaned to trinitarian understanding later. But, even if he was or remained a devout arian, this has absolutely nothing to do with true Christian doctrines and their validity. his beliefs contribute nothing and has no effect on the Christian core beliefs nor on the council bishops.
@@rlg6728 History shows that Constantine made his decisions for the sake of power and politics; he even murdered some of his family! The majority of Christian bishops at the Council were Arians! But C intimidated everyone into accepting the Trinity.
@@Mandellhouse where did hear this, a tiktok vid? Or some conspiracy bs you found online?🤣😂. First you go and try prove constantine was baptised by an arian and that he leaned to towards arianism, and now you say he forced the bishops into believing the trinity😂.
No, arians were very small minority, and there was less than 17 bishops out of 300 in the council who held arian views. The council was called by Constantine so that Christians would agree on the core beliefs and formalise it. He did not force nor add anything.
Heretics to the apostate Platonic Trinity church!! LOL
Acts 24:14 KJV - But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
One of the most horrible unitatrian debaters ever (Rogers v Dale Tuggy). But then, how on earth could you defend a lie and not be horrible?
Lol trinitarian cope
@@alboeski683 Atheist blockhead!
@@hubertagamasu6283 Lol Dr. Tuggy destroyed Rogers
Definition of ‘horrible’.. “causing or likely to cause horror; shocking.” Yes, to a believer of invented non-Biblical dogma.