Dale Tuggy - Ten Arguments for Unitarian Inclusivism
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- Опубліковано 14 гру 2023
- In a 2023 Unitarian Christian Alliance paper presentation, Dale Tuggy offers ten arguments for "unitarian inclusivism". What is that you ask? Here's the opening to his paper as an introduction:
"In a talk this controversial, I must first say that I acknowledge and respect the fact that the Unitarian Christian Alliance takes no position on this matter, and that it includes Christians who agree and who disagree with with the position I will argue for."
"My next task is to carefully define the key terms. By a “trinitarian” I mean a person who identifies as a Christian and who fellowships with a trinitarian church, one which officially professes some version of the traditionally required Trinity language. Such a person may or may not have much understanding of what the doctrine of the Trinity is supposed to be (the norm is a very tenuous grasp), but he or she at least assumes it to be a central and essential part of Christian tradition."
"Unitarian Inclusivism is the view that God can and does save people in non-
unitarian Christian traditions, such as the common officially trinitarian ones, even people who have not disavowed any doctrine of the Trinity. In other words, being trinitarian in the above sense doesn’t disqualify one from being born again. Some will ask why this even needs to be argued for. The answer is that some of my unitarian brothers and sisters (OK, it’s mostly the brothers) are given to publicly asserting, or sometimes just insinuating, that trinitarians are idolaters, members of a false religion, or that they worship a false god, and so they are never real sharers in the new covenant through Jesus, heirs of God’s Kingdom, until such time as they repudiate trinitarianism."
"In this talk I will give ten brief arguments for 'unitarian inclusivism'. These arguments are mostly independent of one another, so if you reject a few, still, you ought to consider the rest as making a strong case for unitarian inclusivism." - Розваги
I really appreciate this. I needed to hear it and grateful to see that another brother in the comments shares my convictions. "Its not our job to judge who's saved and who's not, it's our job to share truth" and to serve God the best we can. I pray God forgives me for my being too harsh with those who disagree with me sometimes.
Thanks Dale.
As a trinitarian for 38 years I was first saved in 1981 in a miraculous way. I knew I was accepted by the God I accepted through the christ, who I came to be taught was actually God who gave hinself up for me.
I knew I was a christian, i led others to salvation and saw them changed. I worked at promoting Jesus/God through working in christian radio, and young earth creation work, seminars, field trips.
I had much answered prayer. I prophecied in church on sundays (im pentecostal) and many times people came up afterwards and thanked me because what I said they felt was just for them, it blessed them or answered some issue. Many times (prophecying after the last songs) I preempted the sermon, speaking something which suddenly impressed on my conciousness during the singing, which I spoke out, and it enhanced or even covered the very subject the sermon was about! This not only blessed me but also reinforced the sermon and even showed the pastor delivering the sermon (trinitarian pastor) that what they had was in tune with God!
When I began to doubt some aspects of teaching (largely on tithing) and the decreasing believers who would trust the so called "gifts of the spirit" (by becoming more like reformed baptists instead of pentecostal... thereby the pentecostal fellowships regressed into baptist style) I did deep study and discovered my mistake and became unitarian.
Nothing changed in me. I am still the same except I now see a huge rope of contextual binding right through scripture, and I see the logic. Im still a tongues speaking pentecostal, but kind of on my own.
The only difference was now the church folk I had been living amongst for nearly 40 years, wanted nothing to do with my thoughts or eagerness to share. Some openly rejected me, while others tolerate me if I keep quiet, hoping I will give up my "backsliding."
They are still ones who love their lord.
So I fail to see how the unitarians can judge them so harshly, even if they judge us so. I do a lot of commenting to thrinitarians and meet this rejection all the time, but I never say they are not christian. They are just disempowered in understanding, will arrive with the Lord in that day coming, and find themselves humbled and contrite, having to relearn what they thought was a close relationship... i wonder how much we also will find this. Some of the unitarians are disempowered like this in other ways. Forest Gump put it succinctly.... "S#*t happens."
We do need to keep reaching out, and keep increasing our relationship and understanding, not just with them, but with our God as well.
God did not die for you. Jesus did.
@@MichaelTheophilus906 i know! sorry to confuse you, when i said "i saw God died for me" i was speaking about when i was trinitarian all that time.
This is the problem in written text, we read it with biased views of what the other is saying.
I thought I made it quite plain that I had BECOME unitarian. And so thanks, your comment warns me to make sure i understand what others have said, before i straighten them out.
I believe you spoke the heart of God Tuggy, I was oneness for over 25 years, and experienced God undoubtedly with an erroneous Godhead doctrine, I still experience his Love and mercy now with a biblical unitarian mindset. I think it takes spiritual maturity to speak and accept this sermon
Amen
I absolutely needed to hear this! I have tried to share the truth in love but have met incredible resistance. In that I have been called names, told I’m not a Christian and that I’m going to hell as a heretic. I try to answer in love but see that I have judged those who have judge me as I have told them they are idol worshippers of a they/them god.
I now see the error in how I have gone about this. Especially when I have told those, who have said “they’ll pray for me that my eyes might be opened to the truth of the trinity”, to not pray for me to their false god.
Im not sure how exactly to go about responding to that and perhaps I do not.
None the less, this was heart warming.
Thanks Dale for the encouraging words.
Many thanks for loving us all Dave. We often forget the new commandment Jesus gave us: John 13:34-35 and 1John 03:14
May Strength, Peace and Love abound with you brother.
many trinity Teachers say, when you dont believe the trinity and Jesus is also GOD , YOU ARE not born again. Thats
the big problem and is not true
Brother Dale, a gnostic Jesus is a different Jesus and as believers we should warn that this is a different Jesus. While I don’t believe we should be condemning or saying who is saved or not. Speaking the truth in love.
I once heard the general superintendent of the United Pentecostal Church respond this way…. It’s not up to me to decide who is saved. It is my responsibility to speak the truth and what the Bible says.
I would ask this… how can a person claiming to be a believer live in deception? if a “Christian” is born again and has received the spirit of God then would they not be led to the truth? And what of those who “distort scripture to their own damnation”? Or those who teach lawlessness?
Yes - God people will heed His warnings, obey and come out of false Christendom and we need to be ready to help them.
Australian Evangelical Biblical Unitarian Church in Melbourne - look us up.
Dr Tuggy - Thank you for this thoughtful presentation that I believe pleases the LORD. In the video comments or future lectures could you cover a question that may be an extension of this topic - is it acceptable to attend and/or serve in trinitarian churches when you live in an area without a Unitarian fellowship while still strongly adhering to your unitarian beliefs? Despite the efforts of some, large portions of the USA lack unitarian fellowships. Thank you.
Are you willing to worship three gods? Are you willing to call Jesus God?
"JESUS IS GOD" -- John McArthur "JESUS IS GOD" -- David Jeremiah "What! You don't believe in the trinity? Then you aren't a Christian." -- Co Worker All the trinitarian relatives, friends, neighbors, and co-workers rejected us for 50 years, because we were Oneness. Now, the Oneness will reject us, when they find out we are Unitarians. We are happy to be Biblical Unitarians. Thank you, Father. Thank you, Jesus.
@@ExploreTanakh84 Did you address this to me? I was never a trinitarian or a calvinist. I am a huge critic of such people.
@@MichaelTheophilus906 OK 🙂
Absolutely agree, if you make Jesus your Lord then it isnt in your heart to "condemn" others anyway, your will should align with that of Gods, for all men to be saved through faith and "obedience" to Jesus Christ, we are not being obedient to Jesus if we are going around putting people in hell in our minds and our hearts.
agree 100%
Awesome! I was born again being a Trinitarian (at least that was the official language with “God the Son and all that). Then as I progress in the study of the word, I became a binitarian (only the Father and the Son are full divine persons).
As I read more and more and discovered the Jewish background of the NT, i realised the truth in 1 Corinthians 8:6 (I could think of a clearer verse). But I absolutely think trinitarian brothers like William Lane Craig and Billy Graham are born again though confused in his theology
Thanks Dr Tuggy! You have a great fan his in San Salvador. May the Lord continue giving you heavenly wisdom!
I think it took a great degree of courage for Dale to share views that he knows may very well be rejected by his fellow Unitarian brethren. So I will commend him for this. I feel he has a certain degree of compassion and understanding for those who are stuck in trinitarian thinking and labour under that error and deception. He admitted to wrestling with this doctrine for a decade himself and can relate to those who grew up with this teaching. But though I admire his effort to be tolerant and understanding of different doctrinal views, the scriptures tell us that only "the truth will set us free". John 8-32 If we believe that the author of such an enormous lie as the trinity is the devil, then any tolerance for this falsehood and its supporters quickly evaporates. It's no different than other satanic doctrines such as the teaching of the inherent immortality of the human soul and the teaching of eternal torment in hellfire. As you would agree, most trinitarian church's teach the doctrine of eternal torment with the possible exception of a very tiny minority and this has been the case for a very long time. So most of those trinitarians that you would like to embrace as fellow true Christians also espouse the doctrine of hellfire, surely the most blasphemous doctrine of them all. Have these people been taught the truth by the Holy Spirit of God? Have they experienced the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that leads them into all truth? John 16-3 Could you honestly conclude that those who are so deceived are actually born again? If I believed that I could only conclude that God couldn't care less what you believed! And that true doctrine was of little or no importance to Him. We both know that's NOT what the scriptures teach. I think that 1 John 4 tells us all we need to know about those who teach that Jesus had a dual nature and this would be most trinitarians.
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess [a]that Jesus [b]Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the [a]simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted-you may well put up with it!
2 Corinthians 11-3
John 4.23-24.
@@MichaelTheophilus906 True!
I am married to a roman Catholic who uses the excuse that the church, the Roman Catholic Church, has the authority to change what Yahweh said is forever. She says her Church is the one true Church and that the authority of scripture has been handed down from Peter. How does one get through to such a person who has been so indoctrinated?
You start where they are. Why does the authority of the church seem so plausible? Are there defeaters for that?
And sometimes our motives are deep deep down, hard for us to recognize even ourselves.
The comfort of the idea that God established an organization with authority is serious, the Protestant answer puts responsibility back directly on our shoulders to sort out the truth. Many people find that overwhelming.
26:00 Does a priest not bow and offer up bread before an altar to a trinitarian deity? I would say, yes, if Granny participates in a trinitarian eucharistic ritual at church, she does in fact participate in idolatry whether she has sufficient theological knowledge or not.
With that said, the topics of who is saved and communion vs. open dialogue ties into this whole discussion. I don't like the hardline saved/unsaved dichotomy as it pertains to Christians. I prefer the sealed unto salvation (born-again) vs. those in the process of being saved but can lose their salvation (nominal Christians, unitarians and trinitarians alike). If our view of Christ has no bearing on our salvation, then do you suppose Mormons and Muslims are also saved? It becomes a slippery slope. Where are the defining boundaries?
Adam, being the first human, defines what it is to be a human. If Adam was not a pre-incarnate entity before being fashioned into a man from the dust, then you cannot claim that an incarnate Christ is human, but rather that he is a unique hybrid being that is neither human nor a spirit being. In New Age systems of belief, there are those who believe Jesus was an avatar, or a spirit-being, who descended from heaven and became a flesh and blood man, achieved nirvana, ascended, and then became Christ consciousness. If you believe eastern mystics that revere Christ yet deny his humanity through conscious preexistence are not saved, then you have to treat trinitarians, who can articulate and affirm the incarnation, similarly because the core of their belief is the same.
I imagine those in Corinth who rejected the resurrection at one point affirmed it and then were slowly led astray as we read of other instances in the NT. Perhaps it was because they let their guard down and became too inclusive. To accept into communion those that outright reject a resurrection, like the Sadducees, or affirm a different Jesus, like the Muslims, vs. the backslidden are too different things all together.
You don't have to be a theologian to understand unitarian theology. It isn't complicated. I personally came to know Christ's explicit humanity through personal revelation and not through rigorous scriptural study. So from this experience, I'll ask the question: shouldn't relational understanding translate to correct propositional knowing? If you claim to know Christ intimately, you should be able to accurately discern basic characteristics about him, specifically whether he has one nature or two. If a believer is unable, then with such a person, it's the responsibility of those with knowledge to guide them into the truth, but to worship together, may be crossing a line as per 2 John 1. Again, what is going too far when it comes to personal beliefs? If this excludes the most fundamental of beliefs, then what remains? Is the criteria then as superficial as accepting those that validate your born again-ness?
As far as a different Jesus, yes, Trinitarianism ultimately points to a different Jesus, one who was not a man but an sort of demi-god figure. There is this place of ambiguity where I believe there are genuine, doctrinally undeveloped Christians that attend trinitarian churches (I was one of them), and then there are those that understand and affirm the trinity. I believe those who are genuinely born-again will not be left in a place of confusion. But as to the latter, as it was with the Jews who claimed with their lips that they worshipped the God of Abraham but in fact were caught up in idolatry, so too do affirming trinitarians who claim to be worshipping Jesus of Nazareth maintain a disconnect in their hearts and follow after other spirits, as Paul had said. Because of this, in terms of fellowship with trinitarians, I would suggest something like a Jewish temple model, one with an inner and outer court (catechesis). One for communion or worship with other Unitarians, and the other for instruction (bible study) and evangelization purposes, lest you mingle spirits and introduce leaven into the lump.
Catholics and Orthodox had many things right, including an exclusivist mindset. It's just that they got the most fundamental doctrine of the faith wrong, and so it tainted the whole. Because of that, I don't think Unitarians should throw the baby out with the bathwater and swing too far to the other side into liberal fellowship unless of course you wish to recreate Unitarian universalism all over again.
Gangster Tuggy! Apprish you homie.
7:15 The mainstream church has taught this for almost 2 millenia, so it must be false?
2 John 1:10 says truth is important. Peter was told at the end of John's gospel to "feed my little sheep". This was indeed an appointment for him to look after the congregation. Other elders and apostles were also appointed by holy spirit. The scriptures also make it abundantly clear that the true believers were supposed to be one body, united, and that the holy spirit would lead them all into truth. It doesn't fit with differing gods in differing chruches with differing beliefs over differing doctrines. How is that discernable from any other group of religions? Are church schisms spoken of in good terms by the apostles? Are they encouraged in the Bible? Or are they bad? How much more so one who teaches a different God? Paul said anyone, even an angel from heaven who preaches a different Christ "let him be anathema", not let him be saved.
I have no audio
UA-cam might still be rendering it, how about now?
@@UnitarianChristianAlliance Thank you, It is working now....I watched it silently with CC, and I will watch it again with audio....such a timely and moving message from our dear brother!
I don't know Dale. I've appreciated much of what I've heard from you. I'm a former "paper" trinitarian and I'm not saying that God isn't merciful to those with a misunderstanding of a scriptural doctrine - indeed, I am an inclusivist. I think there may be Jews and Muslims that are accepted by God (in Christ), while some professing Christians are lost because they do not have the "faith which works by love." I think a person is held responsible for the light that he has.
But I do not agree that a person believes in the true humanity of Jesus if he adds non-human qualities to his person. As you have often said yourself, that's not a human being. How is this not a pseudo-Jesus? I find myself agreeing with you to a degree, but I hesitate to endorse your presentation in toto. The line on this is fuzzy to me. I'm not discounting your reasoning. I appreciate that you have been working through this.
One might think that Docetism is alive and well through the teaching of trinitarianism. John says those who deny the humanity of Christ are antichrist. He obviously considered this a salvific matter. One can argue that a person holding to trinitarianism who says he believes in the true humanity of Jesus actually does so, even if he doesn't, but that is difficult to accept. I agree with Pinnock that there is a "Wideness in God's Mercy", but we also must not stray from John's words while saying we aren't.
I think that some are "trinitarians" in theory, but not in practice, as you say. I just wonder if there is a difference between those who accept a theory of trinitarianism while not really concerning themselves with what it actually is, and those who embrace a trinity theory and push it, anathematizing those who reject it. The latter ones are on dangerous ground, in my opinion, creating conditions for salvation that do not exist, diverting people from the faith.
It's an interesting topic. I will have to ponder this subject further. Thanks.
Your answer during the Q&A, to the question about certain kinds of trinitarians, was helpful.
It seems that Unitarian inclusivity does not extend to Calvinists.
There are Calvinist unitarian Christians.
Dale’s comment about John Calvin makes me wonder.
🤣🤣
When the Romans conquered Palestine, they, just like in other places they'd conquered, tried to force the Jews to worship the Emperor. The Jews replied replied by saying, Yahweh is Lord (as opposed to saying, Caesar is lord). When the first-century christians were in the same predicament, what was their response? JESUS IS LORD. No self-respecting unitarian would have answered in that way. The early Christians were Trinitarian. But don't take their word for it, read their scriptures.
And what would you say to the words of Jesus? The father is the only true God.
Your assumptions about Jesus being call lord making him God shows your lack of study and discernment to the whole counsel of God given to us in scripture.
Acts chapter 2- the man Jesus of Nazareth attested by God…. This same man whom you crucified, God has mad both lord and Christ.
Act chapter 17- God has appointed a man to judge the world in righteousness.
2nd Timothy…. One mediator between God and man… the man Christ Jesus.
It takes a willful disregard of what scripture clearly tells us about Jesus in order to remain in these assumptions. I pray that you would receive the spirit of truth.
@@JacobRobin81 , why do you think I would disagree with the Scriptures you have cited? When I became a husband, I didn't cease being a man. When Anne became my wife, she didn't cease being a woman. When I became a father, I didn't cease being... When the eternal Son of God took on human flesh, He didn't cease being God. The act enabled Him to become our mediator between God and man.
@@michaelsowerby8198 well for one, that assumes the hypostatic Union is a true doctrine and that would make Jesus something other than a man (fully human) like us. Fully God fully man. How are we expected to be like Christ if he was something we are not nor could not be.
Second, eternal son of God does not mean some preexisting being in the sense that he was an actual diety. We know that God calls those things which are not as though they were because God exists outside of time.
Simply by your reasoning it is not made clear that this is evidence Jesus is God in the sense that I believe you are implying. Even nicodemus said in John 3 that he knew he had come ( been sent/commissioned) from God…. Much like the prophets.
Dueteronomy also tells us that that the messiah would be a prophet like Moses, who happened to be a man and yet God said I will make you God to pharoah.
@@michaelsowerby8198 Hey Hey! Thought I'd jump in here. I like your humble attitude!
I'm sure you already know about this verse, but what are your thoughts about the following verse and how it applies to what you wrote above?
John 20:17 NASB2020
Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’ ”
@@JacobRobin81 if you think that, the hypostatic union doctrine is not an accurate accounting of Biblical teaching, you must demonstrate your implied bad exegesis, using the texts that are used to demonstrate the doctrine of the hypostatic union, not other texts that seem to imply the contrary.