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I genuinely don't understand why Villneuve would want to stop with Dune Messiah? Children of Dune is the end of Paul's story, and Villneuve seems to be very invested in Paul's story. I feel like you really need to see Paul's final character arc as the Blind Preacher to have a full appreciation for the journey Paul goes on from arriving on Arrakis to dying on Arrakis. Plus you can milk so much drama from the "Is it Paul, is it not Paul" dynamic that Herbert played with in Children of Dune. Plus what about Aliyah? Her story literally goes nowhere without her turn in Children of Dune? And for that matter, that's when we get the full resolution of the Barren Harkonen storyline as well. I feel like skipping Children of Dune would be a HUGE mistake on Villneuves part. If he wants, he can just not go in depth about Leto fusing with the Sand Trout 😂 but that doesn't happen til the very end of the book anyways
I would think they’re gonna bring the navigators in since one actually plays a huge role in the conspiracy. It’s one thing that they didn’t show up in the movies since the navigators try to stay isolated. They could easily that it was the navigators who told Mohiam to kill the Atreides
My predictions: 1. Prologue with voiceover from Alia (as Part 1 had Chani and Part 2 had Irulan) showing a montage of 12 years of Muad Dib's jihad (will be called crusade or holy war probably) then... 2. We join a final battle as last planet being conquered under Paul's command who then travels to Caladan to see his mother 3. On Arrkais Alia makes Chani understand Paul's motivations etc so she travels to Caladan 4. Paul and Chani reconcile on Caladan and when they depart we get the dream scene from Part 1 of them on the tailgate of the ship as it rises, they then head back to Arrakis 5. Meanwhile on Arrakis the plot is revealed and we move into familiar Dune Messiah territory and plot...etc
@@willjackson6522 ha ha oh yeah I totally forgot about that! In the Messiah book she turns 16 (I think) as there is a time jump in Dune (1st book) as already 3-4yrs by the end? DV has created another issue for himself there. As per @nicholaslypps2808 suggestion DV may be forced to make Paul's jihad longer than 12 years? That would not be the end of the world and will contain a logic (rather than some kind of growth manipulation type thing).
Denis is notoriously brutal about cutting everything hew considers non-essential from his final edits. The fact that he deliberately did NOT cut the loaded line by Paul, re Chani "She'll come to understand. I've Seen it." means he has every intention for them to reconcile by the time of Dune Messiah. I never thought otherwise. Only question is how that reconciliation is accomplished, and whether we get to see it, or only have it referenced obliquely. Either way, I'll be happy to have them back together so we can get something like the real drama from Messiah. Very hard to see how it would work with them still apart and with no heir(s) on the way.
Agreed, but then why not just not have this final scene with Chani, as it has absolutely no bearing on the plot and is completely non-essential? Especially if they just reference it as an off-screen reconciliation. The final line of the book where Jessica comments on Chani's, as well as her own "concubine" status and how history will remember her as far more meaningful than Irulan is a lot more poignant and relevant imo.
@@BT-vj6pk Because Chani is the eyes of the audience, she is there to make us see and understand that Paul is actually manipulating and betraying the Fremen to achieve his ends. She understands (and is there to make the audience understand) that he is leading her people not to liberation or to paradise as he claims but to the hell of the Holy War. In short, Chani is there to make the audience understand what is Herbert's central message in writing Dune, on the danger of charismatic leaders.
@@natzbarney4504 Well as Emperor and the freemans chosen messiah. Yes he is there to be their leader. What you obviously don't know about the Cannon is that while the Freeman were actually bloodthirsty for the Jihad. It was Paul who absolutely hated the idea and stated to Chani that he would gladly kill himself if it would stop it as he totally against it, especially since they were doing it in his name and he was sick about it. But he saw the many futures, and even with him taking his life, there was no stopping it. Some paths had to be followed and he chose one that would also ultimately doom him to a horrible life while waiting for the end game.(as he was too afraid to do the Golden Path that his Son would later sacrifice for) Also don't take Herberts warning against charismatic leaders all that to heart. In every single book there was a Leader who dominated things either out in the open or behind closed doors as the Bene Gesserate did the final 3 books. As each of them were also Heros. In fact the Son (God Emperor) saved the entire human species and sacrificed himself to torment for thousands of years and more to do so. And he had to be a tyrant to create this future where Humans survived. So again, don't just latch onto that one thing and think that's actually the meat of the story. If that was his major intent than he simply would have made them Hitlers and then had the people kill them out of revenge(by book 2). And to emphasize my point. All the Charismatic leaders in the series who did control how people lived. where basically the greatest leaders of all time who sacrificed very much and did things they did not wish to do, but did so for the people. Charismatic or not, Those are the ones you want in charge. Especially since....They know the Future.
@@countfloydschillerhorrorth2090 Long before getting stuck in this future in which Jihad is inevitable, Paul chose the future leading to the Fremen, Desert Power and Jihad. He can choose a different future. After his father's death, when he is in the tent with his mother, he sees possible futures without Jihad, including one in which he becomes a Guild Navigator. But these futures without Jihad imply giving up his revenge and he refuses them. He chooses the path of Desert Power, knowing that it risks leading to Jihad - which he ends up making inevitable... Don't trust leader IS explicitly Herbert's message. Or if you want to see Paul as a hero, don't forget the phrase - No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a hero - it's also explicit, in full, in the novel ! This is the central message of Dune.
@@natzbarney4504 You ignore the more important statements from Paul that I mentioned (But I don't see here. I guess you had reported and deleted as Charismatic comments haha) when he stated he would tell them to end it if he could and then says he would even kill himself if that would work. But he sees no way of it. You're talking about right the F after his father and home was destroyed and hes still at the Junior level of Presence. Yes he had revenge on his mind then. As ever single person who isn't batshat crazy would. As I have stated on this page. If this was indeed Herberts Message. He would have been a Hitler type that destroys his people and they wake up and destroy him. That's always how that story ark goes. And he wouldn't repeat basically the same Person in Charge of everything(out in the open or in the dark) with the rest of the dune series over and over. Not unless he changed his mind and just loves making hitler types into people we care and root for(and it's obvious) better than us. Men/women who do sacrifice all for the people. In fact the only reason he doesn't do his sons Golden path and become a the thousands years old Tyrant to save the entire human species from extinction is that he, as his son told him to his face,was to much of a coward to sacrifice that much of himself and therefore put the onus on his son to do so in order to save all humanity. (Hmmm You want to save the human race huh, Well lets see how you do on the Charisma Test first lol) His son is known as the God Emperor half the time and the Tyrant the rest(actually the Divided God after he divides into sand worms) Which is probably more apt and more what Herbert was working with. Divided God, Division, Diversity. He was too good a writer to do a simple and frankly stupid series of "Don't follow Charismatic Leaders you idiots, find you a Dullard and you will be better off". Look you are probably a Trump supporter or Hater. but if you are a Hater, you probably loved ya some Bernie and you probably were right there with the MSNBC Morning Joe when the day of the debate they said on air 'F You if you don't think Biden is as Charismatic and sharp as a tack as he's ever been'. Your problem(if you were a supporter, and it still goes as a prime example if not) was in fact that he wasn't Charismatic and sharp as a tack and all of a sudden his followers say "OUST OUST OUST" and brought in a Dullard and lost and now they say they need their own ELOn and Rogan, when they had Elon and Rogan just a few years ago, but since they weren't 1000% on the Blue Haired Team, They(maybe Ya) kicked them out and really been kicking yourselves ever since, and keep doubling down on this stuff as ya(they/them/whoever) just won't admit to it in a honest way. So yeah repeats itself. Hey Orangie been accused of the same thing (though his was more not reading what was written for him) and he's old, he certainly might get to where Biden was 6 years ago(but took knowing he was going to lose to realize this Inconvenient truth). Anyway I doubt you're even reading by now so I'll just leave with. Herbert didn't do a series that was based on that stupid of a concept. And he certainly didn't do it where the protagonist is actually. 99 to 100% The right man(or woman) for the right job.
Muad’Dib knew that every experience carries its lesson. Greatness is a transitory experience. It depends in part upon the myth making imagination of human kind. The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in. He must reflect what is projected upon him, and he must have a strong sense of the sardonic. This is what uncouples him from belief in his own pretensions. The sardonic is all that permits him to move within himself. Without this quality, even occasional greatness will destroy a man.
He also told Chani he couldn't stop the jihad even if he ordered it, The Freeman were Bloodthirsty for the Jihad. He also told Chani he would gladly take his life if it would end the Jihad, But he saw the many paths of the future and knew nothing would stop it.
Messiah was written to address the hero worship of Paul by fans. Chani seeing through this in the context of the movie shows Herbert's intent: even though he was a liberator Paul was always an outsider weaponizing religion and culture of an indigenous people to further his own ideals.
Herbert didn't want to write Messiahs to "adress the hero workship of Pauls by fans". He literally stated that he write Paul to be a LIKEBLE HERO, an Arthurian Hero with a very recongnizeble Campbellian Hero's Journey (both Campbell and Herbert were Junguians) Messias was his way to explore the Shadow of the Hero archetype and how Myths can form in the human subconsciousness. Just watch some of Herbet's interviews rather than Villeneu's one and this became clear.
@@joshuafernandes6684 Yeah, Paul was written to be a likeable hero, but the ending of Dune very much is not a heroic one even without Messiah. It's clear Frank didn't want people finishing Dune thinking that Paul was the good guy in all that. Yes, Paul has some heroic qualities, but so does every tragic hero.
@@brewster_4 and Villeneus adaptation COULD have ended that way with a more subtle and well writen way rather than do an character assasination to preach the audience "Hey look, Paul is Bad" That was incredible dumb. A lot of things have been dumbfied in Dune Part 2, Stilgar being another...
I never took the ending of part 2 as Chani is leaving Paul for good. I interpreted it as sometimes when a couple get into an argument one of them will leave the house and go for a walk or a drive to clear their head and walk away from the situation to cool down. But they return in a little bit and makeup. And that to me was Chani just leaving in a huff and hopping on a worm to clear her head. Her emotions were too strong in the moment so she just needed a moment to herself.
I think Denis Villenueve left the last chapter of the book out of Part II, so he could use it to start for the second movie. He had to leave the impression that Paul was changed. However, there is a chapter where Chaini is UNCERTAIN about the future, and Jessica talks with Chani about marriage's use in politics, and how history will remember concubines (i forget the specific wording, but something like that). This will probably be a key scene in Dune Messiah, as the start of the film, or as a flashback! Hence the arguement is over something that is resolved in the future movie, just have to wait!
I believe the movie should begin with Jessica in the process of giving birth to Alia, who tells Jessica to send for Chani, who is reluctant but comes to her side. Jessica gives Chani a modified version of the Wives Speech and convinces her to join Paul off world to fight alongside him. She should be pregnant at the time, but while fighting the troops of the Great Houses, she has a miscarriage, which brings her and Paul even closer together, and they both leave the battlefield in a ship, looking down on their troops, like in the scene from Part 1. That's when the time jump should take place, and the political intrigue begins. IMO.
Interesting, but would it take place shortly after part 2, or would it be part of the opening prologue and cutting 12 years later? And would Paul go off planet, or does he stay on Arrakis? Cause if that’s how they open it, I could see them implementing the contraceptive plot with Irulan
@@tgiacin435Yes, shortly after Part 2, as Jessica is giving birth, and Paul is off-world, fighting alongside the Fremen. The contraceptive plot would take place after the time jump.
@@jennabronson4704she'll only be twelve, since the jihad began before she was born, in the movie. I think they should show Alia using her BG biological mastery, by using her mind to force her body to age faster, thus making her look at least 16 or older.
It's worth pointing out that in one of Paul's visions in Part I which takes place during the jihad, Chani is seen by his side. So I'd say it's safe to say they'll get back together... which makes this split between them even stranger from a storytelling perspective.
That was an early vision when he still had many false ones. Think of all the visions with Jamis. It may come to pass but I wouldn't consider it, uh, foretold.
@@beargiles4062After Paul has awoken after the ritual he tells his mother that Chani will come around because he's seen it. At that point his visions are clear so his statement is true.
@@Evil_Peter Right, which is why ending the movie the way they did was so jarring. It implies her leaving like that will be a major plot point in the third one. If they wanted to draw attention to her unhappiness with the situation, they could have had her leave before his fight with Feyd-Rautha, not witnessing the moment. Maybe have a sequence with her walking through the aftermath of the battle or having her almost turn back as the duel starts. Something to show her despair in the moment, but not having her ride back to the desert as though she's completely abandoned Paul.
@@beargiles4062 I think you’re on the right track. I’d be willing to bet Chani and Paul never stand on that ramp. More likely that turns out to be their children’s future. Just like Paul’s vision of Chani being burned and blinded never happens to Chani. It’s character swapped again. I do believe Chani and Paul’s love will be critical to the plot of Messiah, I just doubt they’ll be reunited until after the burning and blinding.
Chani's return to Paul, and portrayed to save him, it makes his loss even more painful as you can say Chani's life was helped give him sight. It's going to be a delicate balancing act to not lose Messiah's core message in all the events going on.
Some things I hope are shown: 1. Scytale, the Thelexiu face dancer 2. Ambassador Edric of the Spacing Guild (floating around inside a chamber of spice gas) 3. Bijaz the dwarf 4. Princess Wencisscia, Irulan's older coniving, evil sister who lives on Salusa Secundus, and wants the Atreides dead so the Corrino family can take control of the Empire once again. Just my ideas and 🙏
I’m really glad that you shared this. I had no idea how they could repair the damage that was done with the plot line. Something along these lines would go along way to making some repairs. I would be able to live with that if they did something along what you suggested. Keeping my fingers crossed.😊
If Villeneuve does follow the original plot for Dune 3, then Chani at some point becomes a Reverend Mother and through her Other Memories, she may achieve a better and mire sympathetic view of Paul's action in Parts 1 and 2.
At first I liked the way they changed Chani. After part one and some of part 2, I thought they could have her convert to a believer after the first spice orgy when Paul shares his vision with her. She sees their child, she glimpses the Jihad and the necessity of the Golden Path. That glimpse, in the book and miniseries, does remove any kind of reservations she had. The mini series did this very very subtly, and the book did it with subtext You see how she is as a Fremen girl, a desert creature, daughter of Liet, niece of the Naib. She is a born warrior and leader but she is also intrigued by this new mysterious boy and his mother. They are both only around 15. She is a bit resentful of being put in charge of showing him around and lets him know by treating him gruffly. The little faux pas he makes, like asking her to hold his water rings for him, make her stop and consider him instead of dismissing him each time. The longer she teaches him, the more she is drawn to him, but she still holds herself apart. Still holds their most secret practices and teachings back. When he leaves to join the men for their education, absence makes the heart grow fonder. Then the death of her father allows her to open to him more. And the necessity to make Jessica a reverend mother and move south brings them closer with the spice orgy and all her doubt is removed. He is the voice from the outworld, the one who will come to free them from the Harkonnens and make a paradise of Arrakis. This is Chani in the book and mini series that you can see through subtext. The new Chani was on her way to being that too, just with less subtext. I'm not sure how they will pull off her conversion this late in the game, or if it will happen off screen. It just seemed better the way Frank wrote it.
There were some things in Dune pt 2 that I wish they hadn't done, like condensing the Fremen guerilla war from years to seemingly weeks/months. There was a whole Paul/Chani heir lost to that cut. Then of course how the movie ended between Paul and Chani left me dubious about how they would correct it. I'm still curious about how they'll fix it but I am very much looking forward to seeing it happen!
It’s always been my gut feeling that this problem, which I agree with you on, was entirely due to them not wanting toddler Alia on screen. It opens up so much interesting story beats and characterization and even lore, but they couldn’t figure out how to get her onscreen. That necessitates the rapid timeline, of which everything else about Chani and Paul is a consequence.
Just rewatched Part 2. Man I find it so hard to forgive how Alia’s character was all but removed. My favorite part of the books was Alia killing the Baron and freaking everyone out. But I understand most people watching the films never read the books. With that in mind there has to be a stopping point somewhere. I doubt those that didn’t read the book would be accepting of Leto ll becoming part worm haha. All that said I really enjoyed the films.
I definitely would love to see how they reconcile because Part II made it look as though she’d not want anything to do with Paul. So, I’d want to see them reconcile or show how they renew their love for each other before she dies
As a lord of the rings fan that also read dune and messiah, villenueve made just as many changes as well as similar changes as to what jackson did to lotr. Count fenrig got the glorfindel treatment and in return lady fenring got the arwen treatment, rabban got the saruman treatment, harah got the tom bombadil tratment, leto 2 the elder got the barrow wight treatment, timeline changes were similar to how peter jackson made changes to the lotr timeline. Chani and arwen had very different changes from the books, as arwen was more involved in the movies and a bit more badass (not in a girlboss way tho), where as chani is far less of a badass in the movies and more a skeptic, etc... Movies and books are different mediums and both audiences consume them differently, the lord of the rings movies were majestic af and the dune movies almost as good. I dont mind alia being left out of the movie version because little kid actors ruin movies... literally every time without fail. I admire the way denis handled the alia change and it was trippy. Sadly the best way a super conscious little kid alia can work is in written form. The only gripe i have with the dune adaptation is zendaya, cuz i think she honestly just bought herself into the role because shes a blatant industry plant and they could have picked someone better lol YES ZENDAYA FANS, THEY COULD HAVE PICKED SOMEONE BETTER, she wasnt terrible tho idc. Think of it this way, we are very luck to get an adaptation of this quality alone in the 2020's when movies are pretty much garbage nowadays. Denis is probably the best science fiction director we currently have and ultimately the best case scenario for dune.... we are very fortunate disney does not own dune and warner bros ONLY co-produced dune. Legendary films is doing now what new line cinema did for us in the 2000's. Be thankful we even made it this far with dune.
Exactly, the changes to Chani aren’t even that major as people make them out to be. They forget it’s an adaptation and it will never be 100% as the book. We are lucky to have an adaptation of Dune of this quality because it could easy have gone way wrong. As you mentioned, some things just don’t translate well to cinema, like Alia’s character. I’m glad we are getting an older version of her too. People just need to learn to enjoy both the books and the films. If you want something to be exactly as the book then sorry to say this but stick to the book only. Reread them as much as you want. I’m really excited for the new film and i only hope they do justice to the conspirators and specially Scytale.
I reckon it would be insane to just skip ahead right outta the gate. McClunky. Hey in Prophecy, ep 5, opening scene...? The ship from overhead? Its little arm thingy stays parallel with the edge of the landing pad, and the ship rotates around to where the egress is. The arm stays still in space, relative to the ground. I just thought that's such a neat little detail. Why? Who tf knows? Maybe to not knock those people off the pad? Or just cuz its neat. It happened earlier too. What an interesting choice!
No time jumps needed, just a simple talk in privacy, like every relationship - Paul tells Chani ‘hey I needed to become Lisan, but maybe our son will really be that guy’!
I think the scene at the end of Part 2 where Jessica watches the fremen take off should've been used instead as the moment between her and Chani where she attempts to get Chani to understand that she will always have Paul's heart and that his marriage to Irulan is just political. They would've had to add more dialogue to also address the moral issue of Paul exploiting the fremen for his own ends. I think that was a wasted opportunity that would've somewhat begun to resolve Chani's beef with Paul so that we wouldn't have to worry about how they will handle it in Messiah.
paul didnt exploit them. They werealready being anihilated in a land where they cant even cry for their dead ( '' in your nightmares you give water to the dead '' ) for not wasting any drop of water. They live in dune, one of the worst places in the universe to thrive a civilization they did not '' live '' there, they survived. They crave for liberation. Paul is giving it to them, along with survival, the ex imperator woudl anihilate once he went to dune. This is not exploitation, this is co up for a goal
Agreed, them removing the "History will call us wives" speech jessica gives to channi was a major blunder, you could still have channi not agree with it and storm off, but that is such a big part of the setting and how the concubines and lovers are the ones with real power and ability to influence the decisions of the rulers.
@@kollen5952though I find it ironic cause when Paul starts crying during Jamis’s funeral, the whole tribe was in awe because he gave water to the dead. For the fremen, their bodies developed a mutation to help preserve the body’s water. Even their blood coagulates so as to not waste the water. But Paul and Jessica literally had liters to give from their stilsuits
Keep in mind the movie ends with her waiting for the Worm, but we never actually see her hop on the worm and ride off. My assumption is: Dune 3 will start with her coming back and showing the reconciliation - then, time will jump. I still think it's introducing conflict for no reason but, whatever 🙄
If Denis can wrap up their relationship returning in a prologue dialogue with a good flow in the expedition, it could work. Maybe have Chani narrate like part One and have Paul narrate the end as a close to a three part story for Paul's arc.
I see people in the comments mentioning the director felt women were underrepresented in the books but my memory more than not takes me to the parts of the novels which involved Jessica, Chani and many of the various Bene gesserit characters among others. Maybe on paper the male characters have more time but not in quality and power. I felt it was a well balanced series. 😊
It's important to certify if Paul is in fact the Kwisatz Haderach or not. According to the books, not only Paul is in fact the Kwisatz Haderach but also Chani believes in him. Vellinauve choose to turn Chani into a moral compass as he said, or a warning sign, but that doesn't change the nature of things. The Chani from the movie is another character almost entirety.
@NerdCookies I think if they go on as the summary mentions, then there could be a potentail Childern of Dune Series. However, lets say that the opposite happens and Chani leads the reballion against Paul, then this will dilver a more powerful message to the audiance but at the expense of shorting the rest of Saga..hence no Childern of Dune and No God emperor of Dune...but as you said Paul says "she will come around".....then Denis has something on his mind to explain what happened :)....I love Dune the Saga its a amazing and Denis does it justice on every aspect...but we need more battle scenes
Given DV already cut out the 1st Leto child, killed during the events of the first book, and that synopsis references only an “unborn heir” singular, he may have shuffled that child to the opening of Messiah. As in Chani’s unknowingly pregnant at the end of the first film, they use the death of the first Leto heir to bring them back together early on, then save the twins as a “surprise” for the end for non-book readers. 🤷🏻♂️
@@Kanig94 Yes. Frank Herbert wrote that character a man, leader of a Sietch and father of Chani. How does that compare to Villeneuve's anouncement to "follow the source material"? And on top of that, Liet Kynes' story was twisted to a laughable end. Then better having left out the entire character. It's as wrong a casting choice as casting Jason Momoa as Duncan Idaho just to play himself. There are brilliant casting choices in this film, no doubt. But others are a complete failure.
They should do an animated voice over series to fill in the nearly decade long gap. Release it on youtube and whichever streaming service(s), broken up over several episodes.... They've got to introduce Alia, they've got to let people know what the Paul/Irulan relationship has been like. What happened in the galactic scale war that gets skipped over. It would also serve as an opportunity to introduce some groups that werent really covered in the first two movies. The navigators, the mentats, etc All these groups plotting against Paul that havent even been mentioned. Why they are opposed to him etc The first two parts at least gave the Chani voice over at the beginning to fill you in on who the Harkonnens were, why we didnt like each other, enough to get people started along the path. And the Irulan voice to get you caught up on at least a basic intro to the emperor and what he's thinking and how he was mixed in with the Harkonnens and why.
Sort of like the Game of Thrones histories and lore series. They could maybe animate it a little better. But just have some of the actors come in and read a short 10 minute script filling you in on the plot for the next movie to lead into. Wouldnt eat into the budget too much I wouldnt think.
Get one read by Stilgar to let you know how the course of the war went. One voiced by Irulan to fill you in on some basic court intrigue from her view point and how she feels about her husband. Maybe a short one combined with Thufir and a Navigator to fill you in on how there orders view things from their standpoint. Contrasted with their personal feelings towards Paul and the direction of the Atreides empire. Im sure others could come up with a couple ideas for short script ideas...
Denis directed a short film as a sort of bridge between blade runner and blade runner 2049 and I’m really hoping he does the same for Dune because that would help clear up lots of issues
I wonder if they are planning a Part 3 and Part 4…filling in Paul’s crusade between book 1 and 2…which would give lots of room to develop Chani and Paul’s relationship
Herbert does " Just Jump" twelve years. I like the "non canon" filler between the two for entertainment value. Paul's internal turmoil and his and Chani's ability to navigate this turmoil which the book " touches upon" might be what Denis was headed towards with Chani's character.
The real problem with these movies is key character changes that subtly alter and undermine Paul’s character and the base point of the novel(s). Changing Liet Kynes, the Jamis fight, and Chani are the most significant. They, in addition to Hawat, Duncan, Gurney, Stilgar, Jessica - These are people who are all powerful leaders - who are all drawn to and choose to follow Paul. Because we as audience like and respect their abilities, their devotion and respect of Paul influences our perception of him. Jessica remarks in the books that the Atreides generationally have an enormous ability to attract and retain other great leaders as their vassals. All of this is to demonstrate the dangers of allowing charismatic leaders to gain political power, particularly if they also have religious power. Paul has seen the path to human extinction and the golden path to humanity’s salvation. But he is unwilling to face the jihad, the Scattering, and the millennia of tyrannical subjugation that will be required to follow the golden path. He’s not a monster - he faces untenable options and suffers a fall from grace. It’s left to the reader to determine if he’s a hero, a villain, or someone to be pitied.
I just recently rewatched Dune 1 and 2, and the feeling I get from Zendaya's portrayal of Chani, if I didn't already know Part3 plot, in modern Hollywood they would have Chani be the character to take out Paul after he becomes a full-on genocidal tyrant. Maybe even romanticize it by having it be her sacrificing her life as a play-on 'Romeo and Juliet. That's just the impression I get from her acting in the movies. If it wasn't for DV not wanting to be unfaithful to the books core plot and themes, in modern Hollywood, I could see them trying to make Chani a hero fighting against a "patriarchy" leading her people to endless war
My biggest concern has been how they’ll handle the corner they painted themselves into which the end of Dune pt2. I would have preferred making the novel into a 3 movie series. They could have addressed a lot of details that were lost in the first two movies, including the Paul and Chani dynamic.
I have high hopes for the Dune Messiah, but I don't see how Zendaya can pull off being a central character in the next film based on what I've seen her do in other movies. I hope I am wrong about this and am pleasantly surprised. Chalamet already did a dress rehearsal for this in Netflix's KIng. If you would have told me that Tom Hanks could have played a a battle hardened combat officer in a D-Day movie I would have said probably likely not. But he did. So I could be wrong.
After what was done to the characters of Chani, Jessica, the Fremen and even Paul himself in Dune Part 2, along with the mystifying choices to rewrite some important moments of the story (especially the ending), at a minimum a healthy degree of caution is required here. Even if Dune Messiah (if that is the title they wind up going with) does try to move closer to the source material than Part 2 did, that will still require a major course correction between the two movies that will throw up its own issues.
In current movies once they cross certain lines or show particular red flags it is never any course correction. What they did to Chani shows the path that will be taken. I am not interested in Dune 3 one bit.
@@VG-ej4ut Trust me, not watching something I have loved for years coming to the big screen is like Mike Tyson hitting me in the head with a bad but after all these years of Hollywood destroying IPs and beloved characters for an Ideaology that ruins lore I have np checking out 100%. I envy those of you who can still give multiple chances and watch something u know is a usurper to the original creation.
@@mysticlegion8088seems utterly over the top, been fan of dune for 20 years and nothing he did made me not want to see how their adaption ends? Chani character isn’t an issue but just compaction of multiple characters cus they have narrow path with movies unlike shows
the accelerated timeline is a bigger problem than chani. they would have already had and lost their first child by this point. getting them back together is less of a problem. she could get over it, or find out she is pregnant (this would allow for elements of children of dune to be also included, and god emperor can start with flashbacks to the conclusion of children of dune. cutting an entire movie out). simply putting the bg in their place or bonding over the betrayal of irulan, or even just swapping their roles. regardless paul already knows the outcome.
the ending of part 2 showcases chanis complete loss of control over her own life. shes now been sucked into this new life of space politics and assassinations, pauls life. just like how paul had no choice in being brought up in his world, now hes done the same to chani. hence the tragedy we’ll see in dune messiah
At this point, there is no other option than to ask anyone new to the franchise if they like to read. If they like to read, then they should watch Dune Part 1, then read the Frank Herbert novels. If they don't like to read, they should watch all the Dune films/tv shows. The changes already made in Part 2 are going to have a butterfly effect on everything that comes after. I don't see any point in continuing to hope that we'll get novel adaptations. We're creeping into "Inspired By" territory. I'm a proponent of the "Every piece of Dune media is in-universe propaganda" viewpoint, but there comes a point when the intellectual game of "who wrote these lies" just can't get you past the frustration of what could have been. Maybe in 5 or 10 years, after I've worked through my anger, I'll be able to appreciate this stuff.
No you wont, you probably read the books again and then watch the movies and still wonder "wtf is this" specially when the "visuals arent that impressive anymore". DV is superb in visualization filming. Also people dont read books anymore, people barely even listen to books, they want comics, books, stories explained to them in 12-20min (if a really good story you can go for 40min) or even tiktok.
@@SweetandFullofGrace I doubt improvement of visuals will bother me that much. I'm 53 and still prefer a lot of video games with good stories and crappy graphics over newer AAA games with crappy stories and amazing graphics.
@@axebeard6085 As do I, only new game I have bought is BG3, but I meant more that with movies DVs talent in my opinion is the visual directing he does not sure how those will seem later. I still like the Dune Skyfy show with goofy ps2 era graphics, yeah acting could have been... more professional but its brings out Franks works better.
“Take this with a pinch of spice” 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 that was pretty damn good Elaine!! She who controls the puns controls the universe!! 😂😂! All jokes aside, yeah Denis definitely put himself in a little bit of a predicament with how he ended Dune part 2 but it’s something he can come back from if he makes it believable to the story for why Chani would come back to Paul. I’m hopeful that he will be able to do it tho, he’s a great story teller and director
Chani cannot know the prophecy of the messiah was created by the Sisterhood. Chani in Dune 2 doesnt know/is not aware about the Bene Gesserit breeding program, how far their influence reaches etc. Let alone her being aware about the entire Lisan al Gaib prophecy being spread on Arrakis by the Missionaria Protectiva centuries before to influence the population. Chani cannot know these things. Not at this point in the story.
I'm still wondering what happened to Paul's and Chani's first child did she absorb it? Chani's character to me was a hard thing to watch she's inline with the story then she isn't. The complexity of Paul and Chani are an important part of the story Paul's true feelings arise when he becomes The Preacher in Children of dune about his rule in forming the religion. I feel Chani and Paul is a love story that sparks hope and losing her in Messiah brings out what he had done and of course getting his eyes burned away in a Stone Burner
DV simply dropped it. It wasn't an important plot point, just another demonstration of the cruelty of his opponents. Edit: it also helps show that Paul is longer a kid. He has a family. That character growth isnt as necessary in film since you can simply show a slightly older actor who was also had a bit of makeup and movement coaching so he appears a little older.
It's not exactly a tightly written novel. Which is fine, it's a novel, not a screen play. But no one but a handful of nerds would have watched it had Villeneuve not been ruthless in his streamlining.
Paul and Chani's first child was killed in a Sardaukar raid. That's where they also captured Alia. And presented her in the presence Emperor Shaddam, his court and his grandfather, The Baron Harkkónen... whom SHE KILLED. Geez, didn't you read the book.
perhaps the film will begin with paul and chani reunited but show the details of their reconciliation - alongside the details of the jihad - in flashback
Story points. Alia being born. Chani becoming a Reverend Mother. Chani delivering the twins. The scene in Part 2 with Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen with the flamethrower was all character exposition. Hadn't his character been established enough? F-R, Rabban and the Baron infighting and family feuding. If one adapts a 5 - 6 decade old story, even with gender swapping, at least Kynes' plot points in the book got satisfied. But Chani, higher on the list of principles, FFS, not enough time in an almost 3 hour long movie to substitute the same plot points? No, I don't think I'm being too protective of the IP. I enjoy all of DV's works, but I have little patience with click-bait in all its forms. I read all the books starting with Dune (6 times) starting back in the early 1970s and finishing the last bloody drop of BH&KJA's fleshing out of FH's 3 filing cabinets of story notes. Plot holes, as the former saw them, were filled, backstory was explicated. They didn't fix what wasn't broken. I'll attempt to explain my frustration one more time for you "Shame Those Who Detest Change Just for the Hell of It" crowd. I remember that scenery and lighting were not at issue in either the 1984 David Lynch version or the SciFi channel (2003?) version. Architecture of the sets were completely different, beautiful in their own respects. The latter version in disk format has extensive discussion of color coding various themes in the bonus material. (Coincidentally, I saw recently a UA-cam video proclaming something similar for DV's movies). In the 1984 version, there was some development of a 'weirding module' to focus and amplify sound. I don't recall that prop description in the book or in the subsequent movie version, but it worked. How about the presence of the Orange Catholic bible's proscription against thinking machines in the book versus the mechanization of avionics in the ornithopters in any of the movies? Presented differently with no change to storylines. As a matter of fact, I don't recall any major deviations from character plotlines in either version. Wishful thinking? IDK. What do you call it when a character behaves or communicates in a particular way that illicits a reasonable response in other characters? Could the word I am looking for be "motivation"? There was a chain of these things in FH's Dune series. The books were standalone and sequential. 'Plans within plans,' to quote the author. If Arrival was DV's étude in preparation for the Dune adaptations, I can see how he might expect the audience to pay more attention with the right hemisphere of the brain. But how about a little less gear grinding? If these movies were reenacted on a Star Trek holodeck without the props, scenery or sets, in other words, like a highschool presentation of Our Town, how would these movies stack up against the source material? To say that the Dune book is boiled down to character and plot, with as much as possible presented with visual and aural effects is disingenuous, (if I understand the word correctlly: I've misplaced my Oxford dictionary). It seems that, given a choice between movie post-edit run time and ending on a minimum point on the dramatic arc, i.e., "a good stopping place with reasonable dénouement", then I'm thinking that the clock won. If the movie's title shot said "Denis Villeneuve's Dune, Part One", disregard everything I just said.
So much was changed in the second Dune movie it’s hard for me to see how the opening of the book is even doable. Setting Alia and Jessica up as pro Bene Gesserit, setting up Chani against Paul’s agenda… idk, I guess they can write anything in a 12 year jump ahead but still 🙁 The Duncan Idaho ghola needs to be front and center as a main character too
Hello my fonts are fixed apparently ? Umm ... I think the story of Chani walking off into the desert need be told . And it makes a nice addition explaining the girl messiah that commands worms . Which is Chani starting that prophecy ... cuz she is like ... I might as well . I still want Paul to just become the God Emperor though . Get to the good stuff !!! And it frees up needing the children ........... But if they changed the story that much with compression / they better add some stories of the God Emperor before he is 3000 yrs old . IMHO !?! IDK . . . it's all good ;)
I like what Denis did with Chani. There needed to be a character to oppose the savior narrative. That was a critical theme in the book and it was more elegant for a character to voice it instead of voice over.
Trouble is "wasted" screen time. DV doesnt do extended cuts, so then studio and him will argue what is the run time, now the reconcile if happening will take time. Other thing which is going to weird is Alias age, ofc they are going to make it like she grows somehow faster. I dont really trust anything yet until I see or hear more, hopefully he will hit the landing but he could also not.
I think a major theme of the books, is Paul's struggles in being swept up in destiny, that he has limited control over. I don't think it would be that hard to draw Chani into that loop, to sympathize with Paul From what I recall, the book spends more than a bit of effort looking at the angst of Paul looking at how to mitigate the oncoming jihad. I don't think it should be strange for Chani to be cognizant and sympathetic. That Chani was upset with the situation at the end of the last film, seems appropriate. I think Paul was no less upset, but had more time to come to terms with an abhorrent reality. Perhaps Chani reacting so negatively at the end of the movie, was a tactic to communicate the magnitude and consequence of events to come. In effect, using Chani as some moral metric to display outrage. And figuring whether the outrage was against fate, or Paul, wasn't resolved in the movie, at least as I recall. Forgive me if my memory isn't perfect on all details, it's been a few decades since I read the book.
Paul ultimatley fails as Kwizatz Haderach because every time he sees what must be done to ensure the golden path (Evolving through sandtrout into a giant sandworm) he directs his thoughts away. He does it throughout Dune Messiah and it's confirmed he knew when confronted by his son, Leto II - future God Emperor, in Children of Dune.
Let’s not forget Dune Messiah takes place 12 years later so… I don’t think they will show how they reconcile and all that. Maybe a small reference but… they will be together in this film. I hope they just focus on the conspirators and the consequences of his holy war. I hope they don’t focus too much on Chani because if we are being honest, there are more interesting plot lines. So I don’t really care much about the changes made for her.
I think Chani finds out that she's pregnant already (upon her leaving) and Paul finds out through presience. Now how they're going to handle Alia? Maybe they have her grow and mature faster because she's a preborn? Or, perhaps this is a Part I and II like they did with Hunger Games. Idk
I agree she’ll already be pregnant I think they will spend at least a third of the movie on the Jihad and by the time that’s over Alia will be 15 or so like in the book.
Chani comes back to Paul. The story doesn't work if she doesn't. Chani is an absolute cornerstone I'm the story. No Chani? That means no Leto II or Ghanima, no God Emperor, no Golden Path etc. Chani comes back to Paul. For whatever reason I've just always wanted to see the live action scene of when Paul comes in off the Arakeen streets into his Imperial quarters, taking off his boots and Chani there commanding him to relax.
Yeah I don't get why ppl are so worried and worked about this Chani topic. It's incredibly unlikely, if not impossible, to tell a cohesive and well-structured story with them apart. Did he change the character for the better? Idk, hard to say so far but narratively I think it works. For the worse? Like I said, depends. Maybe. Did he use her character change as a stepping stone for a lore-breaking and radically unknown direction in the story? No way. You can tell that he understands the basics of what makes Dune special. It's not perfect and I can think of many examples I either don't understand or agree with but on a thematic level, he def has a solid grasp and respect for the source material. If you check out his other films you'll notice he treats storytelling very carefully.
"A messiah that was manufactured by the Bene Gesserit." This was one of the things that Part 2 really irked me with. In the book, Paul was a massive disruption to the Bene Gesserit plans and not the fulfillment of them. The *entire reason* Paul appeared when he did--as a Black Swan disruptor--was because the "Race Consciousness" knew that the current path (charted largely *by* the Bene Gesserit) led towards extinction. And it took Leto II taking on the mantle that Paul himself refused in order to chart The Golden Path--and giving the BG a 3500-year-long punishment as a lesson in humility.
I think this refers to the BG seeding the Fremen for a religious leader / the outworlder vis a vis the missionera protectiva. Paul being the KH is a coincidence - any BG could set any leader up as lisan al gaib.
i've always thought "we never actually see her leave on the worm". Maybe she changes her mined because she realizes that it's a political move to marry the princess.
Honestly, Alia should have been born and Chani already had a child by the time of Part 2 of the movie. To me, that’s what drives their hatred of the Harkonnen instead of focusing on the north and south fremen. So that we see a teenage Alia and Chani struggle with producing an heir while dealing with Irulan in the upcoming film.
"The real danger emerges for Chani"? So is it Chani focused more so than necessary. I mean having read the Dune series every year, once a year for the past 35 years, I recognize how important Chani is, and how critical she is to the plot of Messiah, but that quote makes me feel like there is a shift.
While I agree that Herbert's writings adapt better to television/serialized long form content, not a single studio is making shows longer than 12 episodes. And with Dune prophecy being 6 episodes, do you trust the studio to adapt Children of Dune into a show that's satisfying?
Zero chance Messiah is going to resolve Paul/Chani off screen. I expect their struggle to be a thread throughout the film. They don’t have to be in an unproblematic relationship to conceive a child, they just have to become desperate enough for each other. This will only add to the tragedy of Paul’s prescient visions and ultimate outcome by the end of the film - even more impactful than how Herbert wrote the relationship.
They should semi-keep true to the storyline in the books. However, I liked to see them change it up to keep it more fresh. Dune Messiah is sad, but why can't the story be altered a bit to make it better? I'm not a fan of the books that later followed. I don't beleieve Paul died. I refuse it. It has to be a massive surprise to keep the story epic. Frank Herbert never got the chance to finish the story.
If Messiah starts with Paul and Chani together I will be stoked because it means the Denis' admitted that he fucked up by making Chani a whiny womanchild and decided to stick to the source material. Oh shoot, did I just say that?
I did not feel any real chemistry between these two characters, in the way this film portrayed them. Because the actors are friends in real life, that platonic vibe seems to seep thru to the film. I hope there is a way to remedy that in the next film.
Spoilers ahead for non book readers. Chani is not that much of a protagonist in Dune Messiah. It's more about Paul and Alia, and Hayt, as well as the group of conspirators. Paul doesn't take her into his confidence, and she is there to give birth to the twins. From the ending of Dune Part 2 it does look as though DV has bigger plans for her. As much as I enjoyed the DV movies I am still a bit let down by the absence of the Guild, as well as the dispensing of the Lady Jessica as 'traitor' plot, as well as the missing banquet scene, where we could have had Duncan Idaho show up drunk and obviously in love with Jessica. This would have had a good payoff in Dune Part 3, where the ghola falls for Alia.
im not really sure what everyone's problem with the ending of dune 2 was.. ive seen people saying that its setting up Chani to be the antagonist for dune 3.. Paul already said that he isn't worried because he knows that she'll forgive him.. if they don't reconcile off screen all it needs is one scene during a flashback or some sort of prologue and done, we can move on...
Dude, they have "over the ovaries" fetus dialogue shots in 2. He'll be able to resolve Chani's being a little butt hurt. There WILL be a time jump, since I don't think they're planning on deaging Anya Taylor-Joy that much. 5min near the beginning of Alia and Paul telepathing on the subject with Chani scowling and then smiling...easy peasy. Please just let Denis keep this trilogy as monolith. Maybe let him exec prod Children on HBO as a 6ep limited series, maybe the remainder as a second series.
Why would Dune Prophecy negatively impact Dune 3 etc?? I think the show is great and it has been a success. In fact it has been approved for a second season.
Them trying to "give Chani agency" demonstrates a lack of understanding of the source text. The entire meta narrative of the story is that with prescience, basically no living human has true independent 'agency'. Due to the generational manipulation of the species by the bene gesserit, the fate of the species has become entangled in the sisterhoods plot. The chance to avoid the jihad has already passed. As you describe, Paul has no real choice. As we know, Paul can't bring himself to make the hard choices required. He has too much of a human ego. This is why it's their son who becomes the 'chosen one'. Because his son his preborn, a totally alien experience to everyone else.
_Chani_ is the one who doesn't understand it, and that being the case, her reactions are entirely realistic. She's pissed at Paul for nearly getting himself killed taking the Water of Life. She's pissed that a prophecy which she knows is total BS is somehow coming true. She's pissed that Paul is exploiting that prophecy to manipulate the Fremen, and doing so by tying himself to the religious fanaticism she has issues with. And then, just to put the cap on it, she's just watched him, without a word of explanation, take another woman as a wife. Of course she'd be ticked off with him.
@@keith6706 "without a word of explanation". I'd like to think movie Chani isn't that absolutely stupid compared to book Chani, especially considering Paul is pretty much spelling out how things are going to be from now on in his exchange with the Emperor. She has plenty of cause to be upset, which could be worked into the story as tension between her and Paul, or her and Irulan, in the next film. But this is at the very end of the second film, so why not just end it with Jessica's line to her, basically telling her that Irulan means next to nothing to Paul? Irulan amounts to a historical footnote. A lot more meaningful than following up Paul's ascension to literal emperor of the universe with Chani running off all pissy, only to be all understanding in the next film, like it never happened. Sorry, but your explanation doesn't hold. Ending Chani's film arc on that note implies it will be a major point of conflict moving forward. If they sweep it away off screen or within the opening sequences of the next one, it renders that whole dramatic ending with Chani riding back into the desert absolutely pointless. The criticisms of the sequence and Chani's portrayal are 100% correct. It does her story a massive disservice and undermines her character as a whole. Just makes it look like they ended the film with her throwing a temper tantrum. Fact is they just wrote themselves into a corner.
The Bene Gesserit plan still survives after the death of Paul and Leto II actually. The organization itself survives and even a second order existed (the Honored Matres).
@@keith6706 "without a word of explanation" What? You are the one who doesn't understand the text I guess. In context, it makes total sense. And would/could/should go on "without a word of explanation". It's modern people who are out of touch with our history that don't understand the context. Chani understands that the marriage is a political move that will allow Paul to sieze control of the people who have been "oppressing" them. Its more effective to just marry the princess than it would be to totally revolutionise the system in the short term. Also, you misunderstood my comment. Giving Chani "agency" doesn't make sense. When the meta narrative of the entire story is that basically no one has "agency" because of prescience.
Alia hasn't even been born, How can she be "the problem"? Also, shame on the director for the Chani outrage in the end. Stop trying to "update" when there is a moral code that exists that is different than our non-regal selves.
I wouldn't mind if they first reunited after a one night stand that makes her pregnant. They could become a couple because of her pregnancy and then slowly having her understand the situation with Paul's thoughts and problem.
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3:24 as written!
I genuinely don't understand why Villneuve would want to stop with Dune Messiah? Children of Dune is the end of Paul's story, and Villneuve seems to be very invested in Paul's story. I feel like you really need to see Paul's final character arc as the Blind Preacher to have a full appreciation for the journey Paul goes on from arriving on Arrakis to dying on Arrakis.
Plus you can milk so much drama from the "Is it Paul, is it not Paul" dynamic that Herbert played with in Children of Dune. Plus what about Aliyah? Her story literally goes nowhere without her turn in Children of Dune? And for that matter, that's when we get the full resolution of the Barren Harkonen storyline as well.
I feel like skipping Children of Dune would be a HUGE mistake on Villneuves part. If he wants, he can just not go in depth about Leto fusing with the Sand Trout 😂 but that doesn't happen til the very end of the book anyways
Hopefully they will show the navigators 😊
Give the people what they want!!! Would love to see them in this universe.
A navigator is a central character of massiah so it wud be bizarre to ignore him
I would think they’re gonna bring the navigators in since one actually plays a huge role in the conspiracy. It’s one thing that they didn’t show up in the movies since the navigators try to stay isolated. They could easily that it was the navigators who told Mohiam to kill the Atreides
So much was skipped in the first two that they felt a bit underdeveloped, though the first film still felt more satisfying overall.
Yeah!
I kinda wondered where the giant tank was in this adaption. But, it’s an adaption. So I guess it’s still in the works hopefully.
My predictions:
1. Prologue with voiceover from Alia (as Part 1 had Chani and Part 2 had Irulan) showing a montage of 12 years of Muad Dib's jihad (will be called crusade or holy war probably) then...
2. We join a final battle as last planet being conquered under Paul's command who then travels to Caladan to see his mother
3. On Arrkais Alia makes Chani understand Paul's motivations etc so she travels to Caladan
4. Paul and Chani reconcile on Caladan and when they depart we get the dream scene from Part 1 of them on the tailgate of the ship as it rises, they then head back to Arrakis
5. Meanwhile on Arrakis the plot is revealed and we move into familiar Dune Messiah territory and plot...etc
Not bad. Not bad at all. I'd be super happy with that.
Only issue is that Anya Taylor Joy is not 12 years old 😂
@@willjackson6522 deep fake on a child actor?
@@willjackson6522 they could always expand the time skip
@@willjackson6522 ha ha oh yeah I totally forgot about that! In the Messiah book she turns 16 (I think) as there is a time jump in Dune (1st book) as already 3-4yrs by the end? DV has created another issue for himself there. As per @nicholaslypps2808 suggestion DV may be forced to make Paul's jihad longer than 12 years? That would not be the end of the world and will contain a logic (rather than some kind of growth manipulation type thing).
Denis is notoriously brutal about cutting everything hew considers non-essential from his final edits. The fact that he deliberately did NOT cut the loaded line by Paul, re Chani "She'll come to understand. I've Seen it." means he has every intention for them to reconcile by the time of Dune Messiah. I never thought otherwise. Only question is how that reconciliation is accomplished, and whether we get to see it, or only have it referenced obliquely. Either way, I'll be happy to have them back together so we can get something like the real drama from Messiah. Very hard to see how it would work with them still apart and with no heir(s) on the way.
Agreed, but then why not just not have this final scene with Chani, as it has absolutely no bearing on the plot and is completely non-essential? Especially if they just reference it as an off-screen reconciliation. The final line of the book where Jessica comments on Chani's, as well as her own "concubine" status and how history will remember her as far more meaningful than Irulan is a lot more poignant and relevant imo.
@@BT-vj6pk
Because Chani is the eyes of the audience, she is there to make us see and understand that Paul is actually manipulating and betraying the Fremen to achieve his ends. She understands (and is there to make the audience understand) that he is leading her people not to liberation or to paradise as he claims but to the hell of the Holy War.
In short, Chani is there to make the audience understand what is Herbert's central message in writing Dune, on the danger of charismatic leaders.
@@natzbarney4504 Well as Emperor and the freemans chosen messiah. Yes he is there to be their leader. What you obviously don't know about the Cannon is that while the Freeman were actually bloodthirsty for the Jihad. It was Paul who absolutely hated the idea and stated to Chani that he would gladly kill himself if it would stop it as he totally against it, especially since they were doing it in his name and he was sick about it. But he saw the many futures, and even with him taking his life, there was no stopping it. Some paths had to be followed and he chose one that would also ultimately doom him to a horrible life while waiting for the end game.(as he was too afraid to do the Golden Path that his Son would later sacrifice for)
Also don't take Herberts warning against charismatic leaders all that to heart. In every single book there was a Leader who dominated things either out in the open or behind closed doors as the Bene Gesserate did the final 3 books. As each of them were also Heros. In fact the Son (God Emperor) saved the entire human species and sacrificed himself to torment for thousands of years and more to do so. And he had to be a tyrant to create this future where Humans survived. So again, don't just latch onto that one thing and think that's actually the meat of the story. If that was his major intent than he simply would have made them Hitlers and then had the people kill them out of revenge(by book 2).
And to emphasize my point. All the Charismatic leaders in the series who did control how people lived. where basically the greatest leaders of all time who sacrificed very much and did things they did not wish to do, but did so for the people.
Charismatic or not, Those are the ones you want in charge. Especially since....They know the Future.
@@countfloydschillerhorrorth2090
Long before getting stuck in this future in which Jihad is inevitable, Paul chose the future leading to the Fremen, Desert Power and Jihad. He can choose a different future. After his father's death, when he is in the tent with his mother, he sees possible futures without Jihad, including one in which he becomes a Guild Navigator. But these futures without Jihad imply giving up his revenge and he refuses them. He chooses the path of Desert Power, knowing that it risks leading to Jihad - which he ends up making inevitable...
Don't trust leader IS explicitly Herbert's message. Or if you want to see Paul as a hero, don't forget the phrase - No more terrible disaster could befall your people than for them to fall into the hands of a hero - it's also explicit, in full, in the novel ! This is the central message of Dune.
@@natzbarney4504 You ignore the more important statements from Paul that I mentioned (But I don't see here. I guess you had reported and deleted as Charismatic comments haha) when he stated he would tell them to end it if he could and then says he would even kill himself if that would work. But he sees no way of it. You're talking about right the F after his father and home was destroyed and hes still at the Junior level of Presence. Yes he had revenge on his mind then. As ever single person who isn't batshat crazy would.
As I have stated on this page. If this was indeed Herberts Message. He would have been a Hitler type that destroys his people and they wake up and destroy him. That's always how that story ark goes. And he wouldn't repeat basically the same Person in Charge of everything(out in the open or in the dark) with the rest of the dune series over and over. Not unless he changed his mind and just loves making hitler types into people we care and root for(and it's obvious) better than us. Men/women who do sacrifice all for the people. In fact the only reason he doesn't do his sons Golden path and become a the thousands years old Tyrant to save the entire human species from extinction is that he, as his son told him to his face,was to much of a coward to sacrifice that much of himself and therefore put the onus on his son to do so in order to save all humanity. (Hmmm You want to save the human race huh, Well lets see how you do on the Charisma Test first lol)
His son is known as the God Emperor half the time and the Tyrant the rest(actually the Divided God after he divides into sand worms) Which is probably more apt and more what Herbert was working with. Divided God, Division, Diversity.
He was too good a writer to do a simple and frankly stupid series of "Don't follow Charismatic Leaders you idiots, find you a Dullard and you will be better off".
Look you are probably a Trump supporter or Hater. but if you are a Hater, you probably loved ya some Bernie and you probably were right there with the MSNBC Morning Joe when the day of the debate they said on air 'F You if you don't think Biden is as Charismatic and sharp as a tack as he's ever been'.
Your problem(if you were a supporter, and it still goes as a prime example if not) was in fact that he wasn't Charismatic and sharp as a tack and all of a sudden his followers say "OUST OUST OUST" and brought in a Dullard and lost and now they say they need their own ELOn and Rogan, when they had Elon and Rogan just a few years ago, but since they weren't 1000% on the Blue Haired Team, They(maybe Ya) kicked them out and really been kicking yourselves ever since, and keep doubling down on this stuff as ya(they/them/whoever) just won't admit to it in a honest way. So yeah repeats itself.
Hey Orangie been accused of the same thing (though his was more not reading what was written for him) and he's old, he certainly might get to where Biden was 6 years ago(but took knowing he was going to lose to realize this Inconvenient truth).
Anyway I doubt you're even reading by now so I'll just leave with. Herbert didn't do a series that was based on that stupid of a concept. And he certainly didn't do it where the protagonist is actually. 99 to 100%
The right man(or woman) for the right job.
As Paul said in the 2003 adaptation - he would give anything to end the wars, to separate himself from ‘this damnable myth I have become’
Muad’Dib knew that every experience carries its lesson. Greatness is a transitory experience. It depends in part upon the myth making imagination of human kind. The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in. He must reflect what is projected upon him, and he must have a strong sense of the sardonic. This is what uncouples him from belief in his own pretensions. The sardonic is all that permits him to move within himself.
Without this quality, even occasional greatness will destroy a man.
He also told Chani he couldn't stop the jihad even if he ordered it, The Freeman were Bloodthirsty for the Jihad. He also told Chani he would gladly take his life if it would end the Jihad, But he saw the many paths of the future and knew nothing would stop it.
Messiah was written to address the hero worship of Paul by fans. Chani seeing through this in the context of the movie shows Herbert's intent: even though he was a liberator Paul was always an outsider weaponizing religion and culture of an indigenous people to further his own ideals.
Herbert didn't want to write Messiahs to "adress the hero workship of Pauls by fans". He literally stated that he write Paul to be a LIKEBLE HERO, an Arthurian Hero with a very recongnizeble Campbellian Hero's Journey (both Campbell and Herbert were Junguians)
Messias was his way to explore the Shadow of the Hero archetype and how Myths can form in the human subconsciousness. Just watch some of Herbet's interviews rather than Villeneu's one and this became clear.
@@joshuafernandes6684 Yeah, Paul was written to be a likeable hero, but the ending of Dune very much is not a heroic one even without Messiah. It's clear Frank didn't want people finishing Dune thinking that Paul was the good guy in all that. Yes, Paul has some heroic qualities, but so does every tragic hero.
@@brewster_4 and Villeneus adaptation COULD have ended that way with a more subtle and well writen way rather than do an character assasination to preach the audience "Hey look, Paul is Bad"
That was incredible dumb. A lot of things have been dumbfied in Dune Part 2, Stilgar being another...
I never took the ending of part 2 as Chani is leaving Paul for good. I interpreted it as sometimes when a couple get into an argument one of them will leave the house and go for a walk or a drive to clear their head and walk away from the situation to cool down. But they return in a little bit and makeup. And that to me was Chani just leaving in a huff and hopping on a worm to clear her head. Her emotions were too strong in the moment so she just needed a moment to herself.
Yeah she was just going to stay at her aunt’s
Yeah idk why people don’t get that. I feel like some of the disdain towards the changes DV made to Chani’s character is just pure blind hatred.
Yeah, I thought that was obvious. Especially since Paul says in the movie "she'll come around, I've seen it"
“Hopping on a worm”
Giggity!
I think Denis Villenueve left the last chapter of the book out of Part II, so he could use it to start for the second movie.
He had to leave the impression that Paul was changed. However, there is a chapter where Chaini is UNCERTAIN about the future, and Jessica talks with Chani about marriage's use in politics, and how history will remember concubines (i forget the specific wording, but something like that).
This will probably be a key scene in Dune Messiah, as the start of the film, or as a flashback! Hence the arguement is over something that is resolved in the future movie, just have to wait!
I believe the movie should begin with Jessica in the process of giving birth to Alia, who tells Jessica to send for Chani, who is reluctant but comes to her side. Jessica gives Chani a modified version of the Wives Speech and convinces her to join Paul off world to fight alongside him. She should be pregnant at the time, but while fighting the troops of the Great Houses, she has a miscarriage, which brings her and Paul even closer together, and they both leave the battlefield in a ship, looking down on their troops, like in the scene from Part 1. That's when the time jump should take place, and the political intrigue begins. IMO.
Interesting, but would it take place shortly after part 2, or would it be part of the opening prologue and cutting 12 years later? And would Paul go off planet, or does he stay on Arrakis? Cause if that’s how they open it, I could see them implementing the contraceptive plot with Irulan
@@tgiacin435 it’s also going to be tough to sell Anya Taylor Joy as a 14 year old.
@ to be fair, Anya and Timothée are the same age, and they were able to pass that off for the most part
@@tgiacin435Yes, shortly after Part 2, as Jessica is giving birth, and Paul is off-world, fighting alongside the Fremen. The contraceptive plot would take place after the time jump.
@@jennabronson4704she'll only be twelve, since the jihad began before she was born, in the movie. I think they should show Alia using her BG biological mastery, by using her mind to force her body to age faster, thus making her look at least 16 or older.
It's worth pointing out that in one of Paul's visions in Part I which takes place during the jihad, Chani is seen by his side. So I'd say it's safe to say they'll get back together... which makes this split between them even stranger from a storytelling perspective.
That was an early vision when he still had many false ones. Think of all the visions with Jamis. It may come to pass but I wouldn't consider it, uh, foretold.
@@beargiles4062After Paul has awoken after the ritual he tells his mother that Chani will come around because he's seen it. At that point his visions are clear so his statement is true.
@@Evil_Peter Right, which is why ending the movie the way they did was so jarring. It implies her leaving like that will be a major plot point in the third one. If they wanted to draw attention to her unhappiness with the situation, they could have had her leave before his fight with Feyd-Rautha, not witnessing the moment. Maybe have a sequence with her walking through the aftermath of the battle or having her almost turn back as the duel starts. Something to show her despair in the moment, but not having her ride back to the desert as though she's completely abandoned Paul.
@@beargiles4062 I think you’re on the right track. I’d be willing to bet Chani and Paul never stand on that ramp. More likely that turns out to be their children’s future. Just like Paul’s vision of Chani being burned and blinded never happens to Chani. It’s character swapped again. I do believe Chani and Paul’s love will be critical to the plot of Messiah, I just doubt they’ll be reunited until after the burning and blinding.
Chani's return to Paul, and portrayed to save him, it makes his loss even more painful as you can say Chani's life was helped give him sight.
It's going to be a delicate balancing act to not lose Messiah's core message in all the events going on.
Some things I hope are shown:
1. Scytale, the Thelexiu face dancer
2. Ambassador Edric of the Spacing Guild (floating around inside a chamber of spice gas)
3. Bijaz the dwarf
4. Princess Wencisscia, Irulan's older coniving, evil sister who lives on Salusa Secundus, and wants the Atreides dead so the Corrino family can take control of the Empire once again.
Just my ideas and 🙏
Scytale would be great. Edric - maaaaybe. 3. No way. 4. No way. Just no time - they get cut with Count Fenrig.
Wenciscia doesn't come in until Childred of Dune, though.
@@PaulRidgeway-h7l why maybe to Edric? He's a critical character to the plot?
And for once I hope to see pitted Tleilaxu eyes in Hyat/Duncan. Mechanical metallic eyes, almost insectile in appearance.
@@PaulRidgeway-h7lEdric and Scytale are def in it or else there’s no plot lol
I’m really glad that you shared this. I had no idea how they could repair the damage that was done with the plot line. Something along these lines would go along way to making some repairs. I would be able to live with that if they did something along what you suggested. Keeping my fingers crossed.😊
If Villeneuve does follow the original plot for Dune 3, then Chani at some point becomes a Reverend Mother and through her Other Memories, she may achieve a better and mire sympathetic view of Paul's action in Parts 1 and 2.
At first I liked the way they changed Chani. After part one and some of part 2, I thought they could have her convert to a believer after the first spice orgy when Paul shares his vision with her. She sees their child, she glimpses the Jihad and the necessity of the Golden Path. That glimpse, in the book and miniseries, does remove any kind of reservations she had. The mini series did this very very subtly, and the book did it with subtext
You see how she is as a Fremen girl, a desert creature, daughter of Liet, niece of the Naib. She is a born warrior and leader but she is also intrigued by this new mysterious boy and his mother. They are both only around 15. She is a bit resentful of being put in charge of showing him around and lets him know by treating him gruffly. The little faux pas he makes, like asking her to hold his water rings for him, make her stop and consider him instead of dismissing him each time. The longer she teaches him, the more she is drawn to him, but she still holds herself apart. Still holds their most secret practices and teachings back. When he leaves to join the men for their education, absence makes the heart grow fonder. Then the death of her father allows her to open to him more. And the necessity to make Jessica a reverend mother and move south brings them closer with the spice orgy and all her doubt is removed. He is the voice from the outworld, the one who will come to free them from the Harkonnens and make a paradise of Arrakis. This is Chani in the book and mini series that you can see through subtext. The new Chani was on her way to being that too, just with less subtext. I'm not sure how they will pull off her conversion this late in the game, or if it will happen off screen. It just seemed better the way Frank wrote it.
There were some things in Dune pt 2 that I wish they hadn't done, like condensing the Fremen guerilla war from years to seemingly weeks/months. There was a whole Paul/Chani heir lost to that cut. Then of course how the movie ended between Paul and Chani left me dubious about how they would correct it. I'm still curious about how they'll fix it but I am very much looking forward to seeing it happen!
It’s always been my gut feeling that this problem, which I agree with you on, was entirely due to them not wanting toddler Alia on screen. It opens up so much interesting story beats and characterization and even lore, but they couldn’t figure out how to get her onscreen. That necessitates the rapid timeline, of which everything else about Chani and Paul is a consequence.
I want Villeneuve to continue after this one. I know he cuts corners and all (he has too) but overall I love his work on Dune.
Just rewatched Part 2. Man I find it so hard to forgive how Alia’s character was all but removed. My favorite part of the books was Alia killing the Baron and freaking everyone out. But I understand most people watching the films never read the books. With that in mind there has to be a stopping point somewhere. I doubt those that didn’t read the book would be accepting of Leto ll becoming part worm haha. All that said I really enjoyed the films.
I definitely would love to see how they reconcile because Part II made it look as though she’d not want anything to do with Paul. So, I’d want to see them reconcile or show how they renew their love for each other before she dies
As a lord of the rings fan that also read dune and messiah, villenueve made just as many changes as well as similar changes as to what jackson did to lotr. Count fenrig got the glorfindel treatment and in return lady fenring got the arwen treatment, rabban got the saruman treatment, harah got the tom bombadil tratment, leto 2 the elder got the barrow wight treatment, timeline changes were similar to how peter jackson made changes to the lotr timeline. Chani and arwen had very different changes from the books, as arwen was more involved in the movies and a bit more badass (not in a girlboss way tho), where as chani is far less of a badass in the movies and more a skeptic, etc... Movies and books are different mediums and both audiences consume them differently, the lord of the rings movies were majestic af and the dune movies almost as good. I dont mind alia being left out of the movie version because little kid actors ruin movies... literally every time without fail. I admire the way denis handled the alia change and it was trippy. Sadly the best way a super conscious little kid alia can work is in written form. The only gripe i have with the dune adaptation is zendaya, cuz i think she honestly just bought herself into the role because shes a blatant industry plant and they could have picked someone better lol YES ZENDAYA FANS, THEY COULD HAVE PICKED SOMEONE BETTER, she wasnt terrible tho idc. Think of it this way, we are very luck to get an adaptation of this quality alone in the 2020's when movies are pretty much garbage nowadays. Denis is probably the best science fiction director we currently have and ultimately the best case scenario for dune.... we are very fortunate disney does not own dune and warner bros ONLY co-produced dune. Legendary films is doing now what new line cinema did for us in the 2000's. Be thankful we even made it this far with dune.
Exactly, the changes to Chani aren’t even that major as people make them out to be. They forget it’s an adaptation and it will never be 100% as the book. We are lucky to have an adaptation of Dune of this quality because it could easy have gone way wrong. As you mentioned, some things just don’t translate well to cinema, like Alia’s character. I’m glad we are getting an older version of her too. People just need to learn to enjoy both the books and the films. If you want something to be exactly as the book then sorry to say this but stick to the book only. Reread them as much as you want. I’m really excited for the new film and i only hope they do justice to the conspirators and specially Scytale.
I reckon it would be insane to just skip ahead right outta the gate. McClunky.
Hey in Prophecy, ep 5, opening scene...? The ship from overhead? Its little arm thingy stays parallel with the edge of the landing pad, and the ship rotates around to where the egress is. The arm stays still in space, relative to the ground. I just thought that's such a neat little detail. Why? Who tf knows? Maybe to not knock those people off the pad? Or just cuz its neat. It happened earlier too. What an interesting choice!
No time jumps needed, just a simple talk in privacy, like every relationship - Paul tells Chani ‘hey I needed to become Lisan, but maybe our son will really be that guy’!
I think the scene at the end of Part 2 where Jessica watches the fremen take off should've been used instead as the moment between her and Chani where she attempts to get Chani to understand that she will always have Paul's heart and that his marriage to Irulan is just political. They would've had to add more dialogue to also address the moral issue of Paul exploiting the fremen for his own ends. I think that was a wasted opportunity that would've somewhat begun to resolve Chani's beef with Paul so that we wouldn't have to worry about how they will handle it in Messiah.
The writers ruled out that option by needlessly making Jessica and Chani's relationship so antagonistic in Part 2, unfortunately.
paul didnt exploit them. They werealready being anihilated in a land where they cant even cry for their dead ( '' in your nightmares you give water to the dead '' ) for not wasting any drop of water. They live in dune, one of the worst places in the universe to thrive a civilization they did not '' live '' there, they survived. They crave for liberation. Paul is giving it to them, along with survival, the ex imperator woudl anihilate once he went to dune. This is not exploitation, this is co up for a goal
I think they saved that part for Messiah *because* they wanted to stretch it out to three movies and leave general audiences hanging.
Agreed, them removing the "History will call us wives" speech jessica gives to channi was a major blunder, you could still have channi not agree with it and storm off, but that is such a big part of the setting and how the concubines and lovers are the ones with real power and ability to influence the decisions of the rulers.
@@kollen5952though I find it ironic cause when Paul starts crying during Jamis’s funeral, the whole tribe was in awe because he gave water to the dead. For the fremen, their bodies developed a mutation to help preserve the body’s water. Even their blood coagulates so as to not waste the water. But Paul and Jessica literally had liters to give from their stilsuits
Keep in mind the movie ends with her waiting for the Worm, but we never actually see her hop on the worm and ride off.
My assumption is: Dune 3 will start with her coming back and showing the reconciliation - then, time will jump.
I still think it's introducing conflict for no reason but, whatever 🙄
I’d guess there’ll be a flashback to see Paul and Chani reconciling. Paul did say in Part 2 that he foresaw Chani understanding and coming back.
If Denis can wrap up their relationship returning in a prologue dialogue with a good flow in the expedition, it could work. Maybe have Chani narrate like part One and have Paul narrate the end as a close to a three part story for Paul's arc.
I see people in the comments mentioning the director felt women were underrepresented in the books but my memory more than not takes me to the parts of the novels which involved Jessica, Chani and many of the various Bene gesserit characters among others. Maybe on paper the male characters have more time but not in quality and power. I felt it was a well balanced series. 😊
That’s insane. Women are the ones who rule this universe.
It's important to certify if Paul is in fact the Kwisatz Haderach or not. According to the books, not only Paul is in fact the Kwisatz Haderach but also Chani believes in him. Vellinauve choose to turn Chani into a moral compass as he said, or a warning sign, but that doesn't change the nature of things. The Chani from the movie is another character almost entirety.
Very very good analysis and you addresses my concerns!
@NerdCookies
I think if they go on as the summary mentions, then there could be a potentail Childern of Dune Series. However, lets say that the opposite happens and Chani leads the reballion against Paul, then this will dilver a more powerful message to the audiance but at the expense of shorting the rest of Saga..hence no Childern of Dune and No God emperor of Dune...but as you said Paul says "she will come around".....then Denis has something on his mind to explain what happened :)....I love Dune the Saga its a amazing and Denis does it justice on every aspect...but we need more battle scenes
Given DV already cut out the 1st Leto child, killed during the events of the first book, and that synopsis references only an “unborn heir” singular, he may have shuffled that child to the opening of Messiah. As in Chani’s unknowingly pregnant at the end of the first film, they use the death of the first Leto heir to bring them back together early on, then save the twins as a “surprise” for the end for non-book readers. 🤷🏻♂️
If Villeneuve stays as "close to the source material" as he did with the character Liet Kynes, then you know what to expect.
?? Made Liet a woman? You have any problems with that?
@@Kanig94 Yes. Frank Herbert wrote that character a man, leader of a Sietch and father of Chani. How does that compare to Villeneuve's anouncement to "follow the source material"?
And on top of that, Liet Kynes' story was twisted to a laughable end. Then better having left out the entire character.
It's as wrong a casting choice as casting Jason Momoa as Duncan Idaho just to play himself.
There are brilliant casting choices in this film, no doubt. But others are a complete failure.
They should do an animated voice over series to fill in the nearly decade long gap. Release it on youtube and whichever streaming service(s), broken up over several episodes....
They've got to introduce Alia, they've got to let people know what the Paul/Irulan relationship has been like. What happened in the galactic scale war that gets skipped over. It would also serve as an opportunity to introduce some groups that werent really covered in the first two movies. The navigators, the mentats, etc All these groups plotting against Paul that havent even been mentioned. Why they are opposed to him etc
The first two parts at least gave the Chani voice over at the beginning to fill you in on who the Harkonnens were, why we didnt like each other, enough to get people started along the path. And the Irulan voice to get you caught up on at least a basic intro to the emperor and what he's thinking and how he was mixed in with the Harkonnens and why.
Sort of like the Game of Thrones histories and lore series. They could maybe animate it a little better. But just have some of the actors come in and read a short 10 minute script filling you in on the plot for the next movie to lead into. Wouldnt eat into the budget too much I wouldnt think.
Get one read by Stilgar to let you know how the course of the war went. One voiced by Irulan to fill you in on some basic court intrigue from her view point and how she feels about her husband.
Maybe a short one combined with Thufir and a Navigator to fill you in on how there orders view things from their standpoint. Contrasted with their personal feelings towards Paul and the direction of the Atreides empire. Im sure others could come up with a couple ideas for short script ideas...
Denis directed a short film as a sort of bridge between blade runner and blade runner 2049 and I’m really hoping he does the same for Dune because that would help clear up lots of issues
I wonder if they are planning a Part 3 and Part 4…filling in Paul’s crusade between book 1 and 2…which would give lots of room to develop Chani and Paul’s relationship
Herbert does " Just Jump" twelve years. I like the "non canon" filler between the two for entertainment value. Paul's internal turmoil and his and Chani's ability to navigate this turmoil which the book " touches upon" might be what Denis was headed towards with Chani's character.
The real problem with these movies is key character changes that subtly alter and undermine Paul’s character and the base point of the novel(s).
Changing Liet Kynes, the Jamis fight, and Chani are the most significant. They, in addition to Hawat, Duncan, Gurney, Stilgar, Jessica - These are people who are all powerful leaders - who are all drawn to and choose to follow Paul. Because we as audience like and respect their abilities, their devotion and respect of Paul influences our perception of him. Jessica remarks in the books that the Atreides generationally have an enormous ability to attract and retain other great leaders as their vassals.
All of this is to demonstrate the dangers of allowing charismatic leaders to gain political power, particularly if they also have religious power.
Paul has seen the path to human extinction and the golden path to humanity’s salvation. But he is unwilling to face the jihad, the Scattering, and the millennia of tyrannical subjugation that will be required to follow the golden path. He’s not a monster - he faces untenable options and suffers a fall from grace. It’s left to the reader to determine if he’s a hero, a villain, or someone to be pitied.
I just recently rewatched Dune 1 and 2, and the feeling I get from Zendaya's portrayal of Chani, if I didn't already know Part3 plot, in modern Hollywood they would have Chani be the character to take out Paul after he becomes a full-on genocidal tyrant. Maybe even romanticize it by having it be her sacrificing her life as a play-on 'Romeo and Juliet.
That's just the impression I get from her acting in the movies. If it wasn't for DV not wanting to be unfaithful to the books core plot and themes, in modern Hollywood, I could see them trying to make Chani a hero fighting against a "patriarchy" leading her people to endless war
My biggest concern has been how they’ll handle the corner they painted themselves into which the end of Dune pt2. I would have preferred making the novel into a 3 movie series. They could have addressed a lot of details that were lost in the first two movies, including the Paul and Chani dynamic.
I have high hopes for the Dune Messiah, but I don't see how Zendaya can pull off being a central character in the next film based on what I've seen her do in other movies. I hope I am wrong about this and am pleasantly surprised. Chalamet already did a dress rehearsal for this in Netflix's KIng. If you would have told me that Tom Hanks could have played a a battle hardened combat officer in a D-Day movie I would have said probably likely not. But he did. So I could be wrong.
After what was done to the characters of Chani, Jessica, the Fremen and even Paul himself in Dune Part 2, along with the mystifying choices to rewrite some important moments of the story (especially the ending), at a minimum a healthy degree of caution is required here. Even if Dune Messiah (if that is the title they wind up going with) does try to move closer to the source material than Part 2 did, that will still require a major course correction between the two movies that will throw up its own issues.
Could not agree more.
In current movies once they cross certain lines or show particular red flags it is never any course correction.
What they did to Chani shows the path that will be taken. I am not interested in Dune 3 one bit.
@@mysticlegion8088I’m still interested but I’m going to be disappointed if they keep having Chani act like a child throwing a tantrum
@@VG-ej4ut Trust me, not watching something I have loved for years coming to the big screen is like Mike Tyson hitting me in the head with a bad but after all these years of Hollywood destroying IPs and beloved characters for an Ideaology that ruins lore I have np checking out 100%.
I envy those of you who can still give multiple chances and watch something u know is a usurper to the original creation.
@@mysticlegion8088seems utterly over the top, been fan of dune for 20 years and nothing he did made me not want to see how their adaption ends? Chani character isn’t an issue but just compaction of multiple characters cus they have narrow path with movies unlike shows
As House Atredies faces collapse were did they get that from???
The project summary was pretty broad and could easily be just a summary found online. I don’t believe anything would leak from the production so soon
the accelerated timeline is a bigger problem than chani. they would have already had and lost their first child by this point. getting them back together is less of a problem. she could get over it, or find out she is pregnant (this would allow for elements of children of dune to be also included, and god emperor can start with flashbacks to the conclusion of children of dune. cutting an entire movie out). simply putting the bg in their place or bonding over the betrayal of irulan, or even just swapping their roles. regardless paul already knows the outcome.
the ending of part 2 showcases chanis complete loss of control over her own life. shes now been sucked into this new life of space politics and assassinations, pauls life. just like how paul had no choice in being brought up in his world, now hes done the same to chani. hence the tragedy we’ll see in dune messiah
At this point, there is no other option than to ask anyone new to the franchise if they like to read.
If they like to read, then they should watch Dune Part 1, then read the Frank Herbert novels.
If they don't like to read, they should watch all the Dune films/tv shows.
The changes already made in Part 2 are going to have a butterfly effect on everything that comes after.
I don't see any point in continuing to hope that we'll get novel adaptations. We're creeping into "Inspired By" territory.
I'm a proponent of the "Every piece of Dune media is in-universe propaganda" viewpoint, but there comes a point when the intellectual game of "who wrote these lies" just can't get you past the frustration of what could have been.
Maybe in 5 or 10 years, after I've worked through my anger, I'll be able to appreciate this stuff.
No you wont, you probably read the books again and then watch the movies and still wonder "wtf is this" specially when the "visuals arent that impressive anymore".
DV is superb in visualization filming. Also people dont read books anymore, people barely even listen to books, they want comics, books, stories explained to them
in 12-20min (if a really good story you can go for 40min) or even tiktok.
@@SweetandFullofGrace I doubt improvement of visuals will bother me that much. I'm 53 and still prefer a lot of video games with good stories and crappy graphics over newer AAA games with crappy stories and amazing graphics.
@@axebeard6085 As do I, only new game I have bought is BG3, but I meant more that with movies DVs talent in my opinion is the visual directing he does not sure how those will seem later. I still like the Dune Skyfy show with goofy ps2 era graphics, yeah acting could have been... more professional but its brings out Franks works better.
I hope for a Paul of Dune 🎥 based on the Inbetweenquel Paul Of Dune.
How's it? I still can't imagine a way they get her back to, where she's supposed to be without making it too much like whiplash.
I guess they're not going to wait for the actors and actresses to age up like they said after Dune Part 2 was released.
The spice must flow. (In this case, spice = box office cash)
Please god let dune prophecy end. Im waiting on the Dune christmas special or a dune / Beetlejuice crossover so I can gouge out my eyes.
Its so weird they ended Part 2 like that, they're barely together and most of the relationship is her doing a Padme
“Take this with a pinch of spice” 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 that was pretty damn good Elaine!! She who controls the puns controls the universe!! 😂😂!
All jokes aside, yeah Denis definitely put himself in a little bit of a predicament with how he ended Dune part 2 but it’s something he can come back from if he makes it believable to the story for why Chani would come back to Paul. I’m hopeful that he will be able to do it tho, he’s a great story teller and director
Chani cannot know the prophecy of the messiah was created by the Sisterhood. Chani in Dune 2 doesnt know/is not aware about the Bene Gesserit breeding program, how far their influence reaches etc. Let alone her being aware about the entire Lisan al Gaib prophecy being spread on Arrakis by the Missionaria Protectiva centuries before to influence the population.
Chani cannot know these things. Not at this point in the story.
I want a Nerd Cookies Tee Shirt--where are they available?
That description is word for word what is on the back of my copy of the book. They probably just copy-pasted
I'm still wondering what happened to Paul's and Chani's first child did she absorb it? Chani's character to me was a hard thing to watch she's inline with the story then she isn't. The complexity of Paul and Chani are an important part of the story Paul's true feelings arise when he becomes The Preacher in Children of dune about his rule in forming the religion. I feel Chani and Paul is a love story that sparks hope and losing her in Messiah brings out what he had done and of course getting his eyes burned away in a Stone Burner
DV simply dropped it. It wasn't an important plot point, just another demonstration of the cruelty of his opponents.
Edit: it also helps show that Paul is longer a kid. He has a family. That character growth isnt as necessary in film since you can simply show a slightly older actor who was also had a bit of makeup and movement coaching so he appears a little older.
@@beargiles4062yes as an adaptation some things just have to get cut or changed.
It's not exactly a tightly written novel. Which is fine, it's a novel, not a screen play. But no one but a handful of nerds would have watched it had Villeneuve not been ruthless in his streamlining.
Paul and Chani's first child was killed in a Sardaukar raid. That's where they also captured Alia. And presented her in the presence Emperor Shaddam, his court and his grandfather, The Baron Harkkónen... whom SHE KILLED.
Geez, didn't you read the book.
@@janellelives5158Oh, it's fine when villeneuve does it. But everyone's like a rabid dog when Lynch did it.
perhaps the film will begin with paul and chani reunited but show the details of their reconciliation - alongside the details of the jihad - in flashback
Story points. Alia being born. Chani becoming a Reverend Mother. Chani delivering the twins. The scene in Part 2 with Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen with the flamethrower was all character exposition. Hadn't his character been established enough? F-R, Rabban and the Baron infighting and family feuding. If one adapts a 5 - 6 decade old story, even with gender swapping, at least Kynes' plot points in the book got satisfied. But Chani, higher on the list of principles, FFS, not enough time in an almost 3 hour long movie to substitute the same plot points? No, I don't think I'm being too protective of the IP. I enjoy all of DV's works, but I have little patience with click-bait in all its forms. I read all the books starting with Dune (6 times) starting back in the early 1970s and finishing the last bloody drop of BH&KJA's fleshing out of FH's 3 filing cabinets of story notes. Plot holes, as the former saw them, were filled, backstory was explicated. They didn't fix what wasn't broken. I'll attempt to explain my frustration one more time for you "Shame Those Who Detest Change Just for the Hell of It" crowd. I remember that scenery and lighting were not at issue in either the 1984 David Lynch version or the SciFi channel (2003?) version. Architecture of the sets were completely different, beautiful in their own respects. The latter version in disk format has extensive discussion of color coding various themes in the bonus material. (Coincidentally, I saw recently a UA-cam video proclaming something similar for DV's movies). In the 1984 version, there was some development of a 'weirding module' to focus and amplify sound. I don't recall that prop description in the book or in the subsequent movie version, but it worked. How about the presence of the Orange Catholic bible's proscription against thinking machines in the book versus the mechanization of avionics in the ornithopters in any of the movies? Presented differently with no change to storylines. As a matter of fact, I don't recall any major deviations from character plotlines in either version. Wishful thinking? IDK. What do you call it when a character behaves or communicates in a particular way that illicits a reasonable response in other characters? Could the word I am looking for be "motivation"? There was a chain of these things in FH's Dune series. The books were standalone and sequential. 'Plans within plans,' to quote the author. If Arrival was DV's étude in preparation for the Dune adaptations, I can see how he might expect the audience to pay more attention with the right hemisphere of the brain. But how about a little less gear grinding? If these movies were reenacted on a Star Trek holodeck without the props, scenery or sets, in other words, like a highschool presentation of Our Town, how would these movies stack up against the source material? To say that the Dune book is boiled down to character and plot, with as much as possible presented with visual and aural effects is disingenuous, (if I understand the word correctlly: I've misplaced my Oxford dictionary). It seems that, given a choice between movie post-edit run time and ending on a minimum point on the dramatic arc, i.e., "a good stopping place with reasonable dénouement", then I'm thinking that the clock won. If the movie's title shot said "Denis Villeneuve's Dune, Part One", disregard everything I just said.
Thank you, Nerd Cookies.
So much was changed in the second Dune movie it’s hard for me to see how the opening of the book is even doable. Setting Alia and Jessica up as pro Bene Gesserit, setting up Chani against Paul’s agenda… idk, I guess they can write anything in a 12 year jump ahead but still 🙁
The Duncan Idaho ghola needs to be front and center as a main character too
I'm very intrigued as to who will be cast as Scytale and Edric
Andy Serkis for Scytale, either Bill Skarsgard or Doug Jones for Edric and Peter Dinklage as Bijaz maybe.
Total guesses
Hello my fonts are fixed apparently ? Umm ... I think the story of Chani walking off into the desert need be told .
And it makes a nice addition explaining the girl messiah that commands worms .
Which is Chani starting that prophecy ... cuz she is like ... I might as well .
I still want Paul to just become the God Emperor though . Get to the good stuff !!!
And it frees up needing the children ........... But if they changed the story that much with compression / they better add some stories of the God Emperor before he is 3000 yrs old .
IMHO !?!
IDK . . . it's all good ;)
I like what Denis did with Chani. There needed to be a character to oppose the savior narrative. That was a critical theme in the book and it was more elegant for a character to voice it instead of voice over.
Trouble is "wasted" screen time. DV doesnt do extended cuts, so then studio and him will argue what is the run time, now the reconcile if happening will take time. Other thing which
is going to weird is Alias age, ofc they are going to make it like she grows somehow faster. I dont really trust anything yet until I see or hear more, hopefully he will hit the landing
but he could also not.
I think a major theme of the books, is Paul's struggles in being swept up in destiny, that he has limited control over.
I don't think it would be that hard to draw Chani into that loop, to sympathize with Paul From what I recall, the book spends more than a bit of effort looking at the angst of Paul looking at how to mitigate the oncoming jihad. I don't think it should be strange for Chani to be cognizant and sympathetic.
That Chani was upset with the situation at the end of the last film, seems appropriate. I think Paul was no less upset, but had more time to come to terms with an abhorrent reality. Perhaps Chani reacting so negatively at the end of the movie, was a tactic to communicate the magnitude and consequence of events to come.
In effect, using Chani as some moral metric to display outrage. And figuring whether the outrage was against fate, or Paul, wasn't resolved in the movie, at least as I recall.
Forgive me if my memory isn't perfect on all details, it's been a few decades since I read the book.
Paul ultimatley fails as Kwizatz Haderach because every time he sees what must be done to ensure the golden path (Evolving through sandtrout into a giant sandworm) he directs his thoughts away. He does it throughout Dune Messiah and it's confirmed he knew when confronted by his son, Leto II - future God Emperor, in Children of Dune.
All I can think is that Paul persuades Chani that they must have an heir otherwise there in no one to control the resultant ditruction.
I enjoyed dune 1 and 2 and I'm sure I'll love dune Messiah
i wonder if they'll use any visual effects or make up to timothy/paul look older
Let’s not forget Dune Messiah takes place 12 years later so… I don’t think they will show how they reconcile and all that. Maybe a small reference but… they will be together in this film. I hope they just focus on the conspirators and the consequences of his holy war. I hope they don’t focus too much on Chani because if we are being honest, there are more interesting plot lines. So I don’t really care much about the changes made for her.
I think Chani finds out that she's pregnant already (upon her leaving) and Paul finds out through presience. Now how they're going to handle Alia? Maybe they have her grow and mature faster because she's a preborn? Or, perhaps this is a Part I and II like they did with Hunger Games. Idk
I agree she’ll already be pregnant
I think they will spend at least a third of the movie on the Jihad and by the time that’s over Alia will be 15 or so like in the book.
Villeneuve said it would be last time on Arrakis NOT Rakis. Just a thought!
That release date seems like it can't work if they just start filming a little over a year earlier
Paul says in Part 2: “She will come to understand. I’ve seen it.”
Chani comes back to Paul. The story doesn't work if she doesn't. Chani is an absolute cornerstone I'm the story. No Chani? That means no Leto II or Ghanima, no God Emperor, no Golden Path etc. Chani comes back to Paul. For whatever reason I've just always wanted to see the live action scene of when Paul comes in off the Arakeen streets into his Imperial quarters, taking off his boots and Chani there commanding him to relax.
Yeah I don't get why ppl are so worried and worked about this Chani topic. It's incredibly unlikely, if not impossible, to tell a cohesive and well-structured story with them apart. Did he change the character for the better? Idk, hard to say so far but narratively I think it works. For the worse? Like I said, depends. Maybe. Did he use her character change as a stepping stone for a lore-breaking and radically unknown direction in the story? No way. You can tell that he understands the basics of what makes Dune special. It's not perfect and I can think of many examples I either don't understand or agree with but on a thematic level, he def has a solid grasp and respect for the source material. If you check out his other films you'll notice he treats storytelling very carefully.
"A messiah that was manufactured by the Bene Gesserit." This was one of the things that Part 2 really irked me with. In the book, Paul was a massive disruption to the Bene Gesserit plans and not the fulfillment of them. The *entire reason* Paul appeared when he did--as a Black Swan disruptor--was because the "Race Consciousness" knew that the current path (charted largely *by* the Bene Gesserit) led towards extinction. And it took Leto II taking on the mantle that Paul himself refused in order to chart The Golden Path--and giving the BG a 3500-year-long punishment as a lesson in humility.
I think this refers to the BG seeding the Fremen for a religious leader / the outworlder vis a vis the missionera protectiva.
Paul being the KH is a coincidence - any BG could set any leader up as lisan al gaib.
i've always thought "we never actually see her leave on the worm". Maybe she changes her mined because she realizes that it's a political move to marry the princess.
I could see Chani under attack and discovering the plot to kill Paul.
Honestly, Alia should have been born and Chani already had a child by the time of Part 2 of the movie.
To me, that’s what drives their hatred of the Harkonnen instead of focusing on the north and south fremen.
So that we see a teenage Alia and Chani struggle with producing an heir while dealing with Irulan in the upcoming film.
He does say after drinking the poison that she'll come around.. just hoping he meant in dune messiah
Paul did say he saw them reconciling.
Reckon Dinklage will be in the next movie?
"The real danger emerges for Chani"? So is it Chani focused more so than necessary. I mean having read the Dune series every year, once a year for the past 35 years, I recognize how important Chani is, and how critical she is to the plot of Messiah, but that quote makes me feel like there is a shift.
While I agree that Herbert's writings adapt better to television/serialized long form content, not a single studio is making shows longer than 12 episodes. And with Dune prophecy being 6 episodes, do you trust the studio to adapt Children of Dune into a show that's satisfying?
Zero chance Messiah is going to resolve Paul/Chani off screen. I expect their struggle to be a thread throughout the film. They don’t have to be in an unproblematic relationship to conceive a child, they just have to become desperate enough for each other. This will only add to the tragedy of Paul’s prescient visions and ultimate outcome by the end of the film - even more impactful than how Herbert wrote the relationship.
They should semi-keep true to the storyline in the books. However, I liked to see them change it up to keep it more fresh. Dune Messiah is sad, but why can't the story be altered a bit to make it better? I'm not a fan of the books that later followed. I don't beleieve Paul died. I refuse it. It has to be a massive surprise to keep the story epic. Frank Herbert never got the chance to finish the story.
If Messiah starts with Paul and Chani together I will be stoked because it means the Denis' admitted that he fucked up by making Chani a whiny womanchild and decided to stick to the source material. Oh shoot, did I just say that?
I did not feel any real chemistry between these two characters, in the way this film portrayed them. Because the actors are friends in real life, that platonic vibe seems to seep thru to the film. I hope there is a way to remedy that in the next film.
But if there is 12 years between Dune part two and Messiah, Alia is 12 years old? I think he'll choose to make that gap at least 20 years 😅
Also, heir? Not plural?
Spoilers ahead for non book readers.
Chani is not that much of a protagonist in Dune Messiah. It's more about Paul and Alia, and Hayt, as well as the group of conspirators. Paul doesn't take her into his confidence, and she is there to give birth to the twins. From the ending of Dune Part 2 it does look as though DV has bigger plans for her. As much as I enjoyed the DV movies I am still a bit let down by the absence of the Guild, as well as the dispensing of the Lady Jessica as 'traitor' plot, as well as the missing banquet scene, where we could have had Duncan Idaho show up drunk and obviously in love with Jessica. This would have had a good payoff in Dune Part 3, where the ghola falls for Alia.
I hope line one is "Somehow, Chani got over it."
im not really sure what everyone's problem with the ending of dune 2 was.. ive seen people saying that its setting up Chani to be the antagonist for dune 3.. Paul already said that he isn't worried because he knows that she'll forgive him.. if they don't reconcile off screen all it needs is one scene during a flashback or some sort of prologue and done, we can move on...
Why does Zendaya look angry all the time? Like she dropped a pizza on the floor, or the dog pee'd on the new carpet
Ole Tim going on Theo Von's podcast made me like him a bit more. He came across as quite relatable.
Dude, they have "over the ovaries" fetus dialogue shots in 2. He'll be able to resolve Chani's being a little butt hurt. There WILL be a time jump, since I don't think they're planning on deaging Anya Taylor-Joy that much. 5min near the beginning of Alia and Paul telepathing on the subject with Chani scowling and then smiling...easy peasy.
Please just let Denis keep this trilogy as monolith. Maybe let him exec prod Children on HBO as a 6ep limited series, maybe the remainder as a second series.
He stated she would learn to understand in the movie
Why would Dune Prophecy negatively impact Dune 3 etc?? I think the show is great and it has been a success. In fact it has been approved for a second season.
Them trying to "give Chani agency" demonstrates a lack of understanding of the source text.
The entire meta narrative of the story is that with prescience, basically no living human has true independent 'agency'. Due to the generational manipulation of the species by the bene gesserit, the fate of the species has become entangled in the sisterhoods plot. The chance to avoid the jihad has already passed. As you describe, Paul has no real choice. As we know, Paul can't bring himself to make the hard choices required. He has too much of a human ego. This is why it's their son who becomes the 'chosen one'. Because his son his preborn, a totally alien experience to everyone else.
_Chani_ is the one who doesn't understand it, and that being the case, her reactions are entirely realistic. She's pissed at Paul for nearly getting himself killed taking the Water of Life. She's pissed that a prophecy which she knows is total BS is somehow coming true. She's pissed that Paul is exploiting that prophecy to manipulate the Fremen, and doing so by tying himself to the religious fanaticism she has issues with. And then, just to put the cap on it, she's just watched him, without a word of explanation, take another woman as a wife. Of course she'd be ticked off with him.
@@keith6706 "without a word of explanation". I'd like to think movie Chani isn't that absolutely stupid compared to book Chani, especially considering Paul is pretty much spelling out how things are going to be from now on in his exchange with the Emperor. She has plenty of cause to be upset, which could be worked into the story as tension between her and Paul, or her and Irulan, in the next film. But this is at the very end of the second film, so why not just end it with Jessica's line to her, basically telling her that Irulan means next to nothing to Paul? Irulan amounts to a historical footnote. A lot more meaningful than following up Paul's ascension to literal emperor of the universe with Chani running off all pissy, only to be all understanding in the next film, like it never happened.
Sorry, but your explanation doesn't hold. Ending Chani's film arc on that note implies it will be a major point of conflict moving forward. If they sweep it away off screen or within the opening sequences of the next one, it renders that whole dramatic ending with Chani riding back into the desert absolutely pointless. The criticisms of the sequence and Chani's portrayal are 100% correct. It does her story a massive disservice and undermines her character as a whole. Just makes it look like they ended the film with her throwing a temper tantrum. Fact is they just wrote themselves into a corner.
The Bene Gesserit plan still survives after the death of Paul and Leto II actually. The organization itself survives and even a second order existed (the Honored Matres).
@@keith6706 "without a word of explanation"
What? You are the one who doesn't understand the text I guess. In context, it makes total sense. And would/could/should go on "without a word of explanation". It's modern people who are out of touch with our history that don't understand the context. Chani understands that the marriage is a political move that will allow Paul to sieze control of the people who have been "oppressing" them. Its more effective to just marry the princess than it would be to totally revolutionise the system in the short term.
Also, you misunderstood my comment. Giving Chani "agency" doesn't make sense. When the meta narrative of the entire story is that basically no one has "agency" because of prescience.
The "new " plot details were leaked in 1969 it's called Dune Messiah.
Alia hasn't even been born, How can she be "the problem"? Also, shame on the director for the Chani outrage in the end. Stop trying to "update" when there is a moral code that exists that is different than our non-regal selves.
I wouldn't mind if they first reunited after a one night stand that makes her pregnant. They could become a couple because of her pregnancy and then slowly having her understand the situation with Paul's thoughts and problem.