Outstanding video. Like others commenting here, I am scientifically trained (biochemistry) and I have been leery of the wood meter recommendations out there. I build furniture as a semi-serious hobby and side business, so the moisture content of my lumber is really important to me… now I know which moisture meters to throw away and which one to keep. Thank you!
watching this i was really expecting to look down and see a couple tens of thousands of likes and a hundred thousand subscribers, but apparently not. very high quality comparison, i think im going to go with the R/D based on this video.
How do you not have 500k subs? This is one of the most comprehensive tests I’ve seen on UA-cam. Very much on the level with Jonathon Katz-Moses and his tests.
JJJJJJFC you paid for a lab oven and only have 20k views. For once I will like a video *just* for your metrics. Excellent work, sir. This is the information we need.
Thank you for the information. I was watching the other reviews, and you definitely hit the nail on the head when it came too comparing the instruments to one another and not the scientific method of which you performed. Thank you for taking the time and spending the money to help make my decision much easier.
Thank you so much for making this video. You added to society. As wood gasification becomes way cheaper than gasoline (currently even), this video will explode.
Thank you for testing these, I build custom furniture and have just started my journey into youtube and and social media to get my work out there. Ive been use the cheap amazon pinless version and have wondered how accurate it actually is. I have contemplated buying the orion but being a fairly new small business 600 is alot to throw down on a tool that only does the one thing. But after watching this video you have answered every question I had, and I will be setting aside some some funds for the orion. Thank you for such a detailed video and if you decide to part with your Orion maybe we can work a deal. But keep up the good.
Seriously, seriously awesome video. And, for me, this may be one of the most important UA-cam videos I ever watch because I'm planning on starting a woodworking business, and if I had happened to be starting this before 2024, I would have probably watched a bunch of videos on wood moisture content meters and ended up getting one that was very precise, but as this video shows, not necessarily accurate. I probably wouldn't have gotten the Orion because it's quite expensive and I'd have figured well, a cheaper one is probably good enough. So this might have totally saved my ass. You have done the woodworking community a great service 👍👍
At the end of November 2023 I purchased a Klein Tools ET140 meter for about $42 and a Wagner Meters Orion 950 which was selling for about $600. The goal was to check red oak and black walnut boards that had been air drying for 15 years, but had to be coated with BoraCare to kill boring bugs. I was not sure of the accuracy of either meeter - in late February I tested the two meters side by side once the temperature reached 60 degrees. In short, the Klein Tools ET140 meter consistently measured the moisture content of red oak and black walnut boards at 7% to 8% lower than the measurement shown by a significantly more expensive Wagner Meters Orion 950. I left a review on Amazon for the Klein Tools ET140 showing the side by side comparison. Thanks for posting your video, I now have greater confidence in the readings displayed by the Orion 950.
Great video! Do you think the R/D would work inside a crawl space to understand the moisture content of the wood or will the salt deposits left over from evaporation of water mess up the results? Just thinking from the standpoint that if the wood is over 60% humidity for 24+ hours we get the start of fungal growth accumulation.
He said the Orion was off by 3.66%, R&D was off by 16.18%. I interpret that to mean that the R&D could say a 10% moisture content wood was anywhere between 8.4-11.6% while the Orion would show it was somewhere in the 9.6-10.4% range.
It'd be good to repeat the test on some non flat and far from flat firewood pieces to see how pinless actually performs when operating in substandard conditions.
I was thinking this too! My ONLY use for one of these right now is very substandard conditions, so was hoping to get a sense of that too. The downsides of pinless that don’t matter to a woodworker, matter very much to me haha
Don need no stinkin' moisture meter for firewood. Those with knowledge and experience know how to judge without some device. 1. Look at the splits for weathering. 2. Are the splits cracked on ends ? 3. Knock a couple of splits together. If they "sound" then seasoned. 4. Know how long your stacks have been seasoning. Need more ? Oh yeah, if the split in the fire sizzles, it is NOT seasoned, not ready. Those cute $$$ MMs are for lumber, cabinet makers, not firewood. JMNSHO
Interesting. Did you publish your data anywhere? Guessimg all pinned read low? Or are they already compensating for surface dryness and estimating core numbers resultingin general but perhaps biassed error in readings?
Thank you for making UA-cam better! Would really appreciate if you share your measurements in a spreadsheet with some graphs and more details like reads low/high
Fantastic Video / Super comprehensive, I just ordered the R&D for a project. I am using HD 3/4 PT plywood for an open - trailer project and need to to know when I can stain it. Many Thanks Partner, you just gained a subscriber.
10 min in the video I am thinking this methodology is wonderful, but why not test a wider variety of meters? You already spent a ton of money on lab quality equipment? I’d love to see some of the more popular meters going head to head.
Great vid John, Super comprehensive for the woodworking folks. I don't think there is any doubt they should buy a pinless meter, & the Orion model at that, if they can afford it. Unfortunately I think the jury is still out for the plain old firewood burning people. I'm still unclear if any of these are any good for checking firewood prior to burning. Do you still own the test oven? Could you perform another test on split wood, not dressed timber? I understand it would be outside the official testing standards & procedures but would be a better real world test for the average firewood consumer. Anyway hope you have one last firewood test left in you. Hope you post a 'firewood meter only' buyers guides soon. Great video regardless.
Great investigation. I very much doubt it would have made any difference to the results, but to avoid the potential for criticism, I would have worn nitrile gloves while handling the samples.
hi i have the rd, one thing i would like to understand is why the measurements change so dramatically, when you measure the same wood from soft wood to hardwood ,i know whar they are, BUT why the device measure so different values? try it on cedar for example, measure the both modes, and you see..thanks
Very informative video, thanks for all your work and expense. Answered just about all my questions. Sounds like pinless is definitely the way to go. Now that that was established, it would be interesting to see several pinless models tested, but I suspect that you have other things going on in your life 😄. I'm now subscribed and I look forward to checking out your past and future videos.
I am painting the siding of my house and it rained a lot tonight. I already applied the first coat of primer 2 days ago and I was wondering if getting a painless moisture meter would be practical. Would you recommend getting the ones you found to be accurate or it is a waste of time trying to measure moisture on a primed siding? Thank you very much in advance for your help
Thank you very much for your reply. I am not sure if I understand. In your opinion is it worth it or worthless to use a meter to decide whether or not a siding is dry enough to paint?
In my experience, surface rain, be it on firewood or any other kind of wood, won't absorb water so much that a meter is needed. Like, if it's dry to the touch, it should be good to go.
Just so I fully understand... when you say the Orion has a 3.66 percent error margin, does that mean that it could report between 9.64% - 10.36% moisture content when the actual moisture content was 10%? Or could the Orion report 6,34% - 13.66% moisture content when actual content was 10%? Or does it mean that the full range of potential error was 3.66% of the actual moisture content number?
10.36% of what? The dried piece? That means the peace was 110.36% before drying? These calculations are confusing. I guess I have to read ASTM D4442 myself!
@@elbuggo It's absolute moisture content, contrary to air moisture content which is relative to the air temperature (since different air temperatures can hold different amounts of water). So 100% air moisture is not that you are under water, but rather that the air cannot hold more water at this temperature. But with wood moisture content you weigh a piece of wood and then you put it in an oven. You take it out every four hours and weigh it again. Then you repeat that procedure until it hasn't lost any weight since the previous measurement - and at that point it is considered to have a 0% moisture content. So if the piece of wood weighed 100 grams before the oven procedure, and it weighs 90 grams after the procedure - then that means that the wood must have had a 10% moisture content before the oven procedure.
@@AndersHejdenberg RE: if the piece of wood weighed 100 grams before the oven procedure, and it weighs 90 grams after the procedure - then that means that the wood must have had a 10% moisture content before the oven procedure. I don't agree. Your sample had 11.11% moisture content. The dry sample is 100%. I found the calculations in ASTM D4442.
@@elbuggo Ah, gotcha - I though it was the other way around (which I suppose makes more sense now that I think of it). So 90 grams is 100%, which means that 10 grams would be 11.11%.
Many years age an old man told me how they checked moisture stabilization When they were building airplane frames out of wood. Cut off the end of the board 6” from end then slice off from cut end a 1/4” slice, lay it on its side and cut lengthwise down center and see if it curves. The side with the most moisture will expand to tell if the center or side contains more moisture. The cut had to be straight to use in an airframe
An interesting "point" is that the pinned meters can be tricked by conductivity of salts. For example, I've watched videos from the UK about testing moisture in walls of stone houses. Salts on the surface deposited by evaporation can give a false positive reading for moisture.
this was great. would like more result data detail, as well as more models tested. you spent $2k on the oven, which is awesome. now you can make cupcakes, but what about Klein? Dr. Meter? General? etc...let's get a bake off goin here ;-)
Subscribed. Best test/study available on any topic on youtube because it was actually independently verified and followed calibration standards. This video got a like, and its an injustice that its only got 7,000 views. Hopefully that number increases. Thanks for taking the time, spending the money, and making this video happen. Theres no other video anyone needs to watch regarding moisture meters. Period.
Protimeter Survey master, period, in my book at least. Note that moisture meter do not actually measure moisture, that is an important thing to keep in mind.
Im not sure what youre asking exactly. But from what I measured, the worst performing unit to the best performing unit, was a roughly 2000% difference. (absolute error .6 vs. 6.35) in regards to accuracy.
While I love your sarcasm and truths, know that so many people use or have the General brand moisture tester, I would say it would have been nice to see how it compares too.
Hi and thanks for sharing, appreciated. Didn't know pinned wood moisture meters should measure along the grain, thanks. I've seen others split the wood and pin on the center to get an indication of how fully seasoned firewood is in the middle. I wonder how pinning on the outside rather than the inside would effect measures and cause the testing to lack fidelity with the design purpose and instructions for use of pinned meters when checking seasoned state of firewood. i.e. it seems the testing methods were not in line with checking if firewood is seasoned with pin moisture measures - a common use for them. I found the moving forward and back, left and right while talking made watching take more effort, it was a bit too much for me so I scrolled down to lessen the sensory load. Thanks again for sharing, I learned some stuff I didn't know, though I think the method had inbuilt bias because splitting the wood for the pinned meters would have enabled them to avoid the error of measuring too dry on the outside. i.e. the test didn't fairly look at using pinned meters for checking if firewood is seasoned while doing the opposite of what a method to test that would. Cheers sincerely d
So, to be clear, you didn't watch the whole video, because I didn't stand still like a robot. Then, complained that I didn't do something that I explained, but you didn't see because you clicked through it? Classic. Never change internet.
Hi@@JohnWCH Thanks for your reply, I'm happy to have a chat. SO, TO BE CLEAR, YOU DIDN'T WATCH THE WHOLE VIDEO, No. Once I’d seen you read one set of instructions seeing it again was a waste of my time, I knew you were following manufacturer instructions so I didn’t need to watch your repetitions so I skipped ahead etc. _Basically, I found your presentation inefficiently repetitive in some parts._ Do you really think people want to watch you basically repeat yourself? I suggest you show it clearly and succinctly once then make it clear you did it for them all. That would get your good following of instructions across without dragging out the skinning of each cat, even though there are lots of ways to skin a cat, I didn’t need to see them all. BECAUSE I DIDN'T STAND STILL LIKE A ROBOT. That’s right. That was my point, you moved to much as I explained. Good to see you got my point. THEN, COMPLAINED THAT I DIDN'T DO SOMETHING THAT I EXPLAINED, That you didn’t do it made the testing biased. Explaining it at the end didn’t change that fact. It’s like you said at the start about how there are so many YT vids claiming to be doing science but they don’t know what they are doing and so they don’t do as well as they wanted to. So you’ve already pointed out your own error to be like that of so many others, so I know you understand. Quality feedback pointing out basic errors in method is valuable and I’m happy to share it freely as you shared freely, thank you again. BUT YOU DIDN'T SEE BECAUSE YOU CLICKED THROUGH IT? I saw it after commenting and before you replied. I judged the explanation didn’t change the unfair method and results. However it clearly admits that the method was not as good as it could have been. i.e. you actually know the testing was biased. You aimed and claimed to be doing a better comparison than others, I don’t think you hit your goal this time. CLASSIC. NEVER CHANGE INTERNET. We’re part of a society that *believes* in science but a lot of the population doesn’t know how to *do or judge* it well. As a former science teacher I think your testing design had significant bias. What you do with my feedback is up to you. Cheers sincerely d
I like your scientific approach to assess the accuracy and would have appreciated a higher focus on presenting result details. A table showing measured percentages against determined percentages from the oven drying procedure. For a fair comparison of the pin meter you could have put 6 metal pins in each wood sample to ensure that both instruments “see” the same moisture and having 3 sample locations tells you how homogeneous the moisture is distributed within the wood. A measurement difference between the instruments is then only due to difference in resistance measurement or applied internal calibration. All the pin meter does is measuring the resistance, which can be done with any simple multimeter, and converts it into percent moisture based on an internal calibration for different materials. Again, a detailed result table would allow conclusions on how good the internal calibrations were for different types of wood and if a recalibration by the user would make sense
Repeatability can be enough. I test rough turned bowls, and just note the number. If it's stable over a few weeks, it's done. The particular number is irrelevant. Any air drying to equilibrium can be done this way, and I would argue this is the most useful thing to know in the first place. I would be interested to see how the pin meters preform with the pins all the way inserted. I don't know what the user manuals for those products say, but in my experience you only get some accuracy when you hammer them in a good 1/4". Physical robustness is one of the most important things for pin meters.
For a woodworker, I'd argue that accuracy is much less important that repeability. Keep scraps of well dried wood in your shop, then compare the wood in question to those samples.
One thing he did not test which seems to be a shame is calibration. The main distinction between cheap and expensive meters seems to me to be whether you can adjust for the woods density. The absolute moisture content is generally not the main issue in woodworking (more important in firewood). What wood workers need to know is is the wood going to be stable in the environment it will be in. So if you are building furniture that will live in a heated living space what is the humidity in that space and how does that compare to my stock? You can set that by simply measuring a piece of furniture that is in a similar environment. So I measure an oak table and the meter says it has 20% moisture. It doesn't matter if it is really 15 or 25% as long as the reading on my stock is the same the new wood should not move. That would be fine if I am building the new stuff out of oak but what if I am using oak for framing but maple for draws. This is where the species calibration is essential. To get an accurate comparison between different species you have to be able to adjust for their different densities. This is far more important than absolute accuracy.
Waving your hands around, moving around while you talk, and taking longer than necessary to convey the information are forms of echopraxia which is ignorance.
@@JohnWCH I came to this video in search of science based information, as it was asserted as being. What followed was an atrocity void of reason. By the speakers own words he attempted to "punch it up" in an effort to gain more appeal from his viewers, and at the expense of anyone actually needing the information he claimed to be sharing. He did this after taking advice from, presumably, his partner who advised him that it was boring and/or put the viewer to sleep. I came looking for information and was told that this video contained the best information on this topic on the internet. The speaker lied when he made that claim. Instead what he showed was that he is an androphobic epicene omega male who takes orders from an emotional feminine mind rooted in ignorance. This is something common to see on content creators' channels. They indeed mirror one another engaging mindless echopraxia and echolalia in an effort to satisfy their own emotional desires and feelings. Anyone taking advice from a mind rooted in ignorance will suffer the consequences of doing so. Did I learn anything from watching the video? No, I already knew everything that I just stated prior to watching the video.
As a scientifically trained person I very much valued this video. Thank you and I'm certainly a new subscriber and fan.
So am I! There's dozens of us! Thanks for watching!
Outstanding video. Like others commenting here, I am scientifically trained (biochemistry) and I have been leery of the wood meter recommendations out there. I build furniture as a semi-serious hobby and side business, so the moisture content of my lumber is really important to me… now I know which moisture meters to throw away and which one to keep. Thank you!
Thanks for watching!
Thank you!!!
No sweat
This is on par with Project Farm testing and greatly appreciated by everyone that watches both channels! Instant subscribe!
Damn bro… you went deep… but actually thank you for the knowledge I just learned watching this video…😎👍
Dang it, no review /conclusion at the end of the video, anyone watched thru and remember which one is the cheapest and gives decent results?
Got it, R/D is #2 and it's just $25. ua-cam.com/video/03CT5bp41BY/v-deo.html Thank you for the review!
watching this i was really expecting to look down and see a couple tens of thousands of likes and a hundred thousand subscribers, but apparently not. very high quality comparison, i think im going to go with the R/D based on this video.
Nope. It's just me shouting into the UA-cam algorithm void. So sincerely, thank you very much for watching!
I learned something, that's what I was looking for. Very good test.
How do you not have 500k subs? This is one of the most comprehensive tests I’ve seen on UA-cam. Very much on the level with Jonathon Katz-Moses and his tests.
People have extremely short attention spans nowadays. 🤷🏻♂️
Would you please share the data collected? Thanks.
Mate, best tech video I watched the entire year!
Subscribed and following, no matter what.
Thank you!!
JJJJJJFC you paid for a lab oven and only have 20k views. For once I will like a video *just* for your metrics. Excellent work, sir. This is the information we need.
Thanks and thanks for watching!
That was awesome. Thanks for the comparison. I'm in the market for Home Inspection.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for the information. I was watching the other reviews, and you definitely hit the nail on the head when it came too comparing the instruments to one another and not the scientific method of which you performed. Thank you for taking the time and spending the money to help make my decision much easier.
My pleasure
Thank you so much for making this video. You added to society. As wood gasification becomes way cheaper than gasoline (currently even), this video will explode.
Well done. Good scientific method. And just the information I needed for a purchase. Thanks
Thank you for testing these, I build custom furniture and have just started my journey into youtube and and social media to get my work out there. Ive been use the cheap amazon pinless version and have wondered how accurate it actually is. I have contemplated buying the orion but being a fairly new small business 600 is alot to throw down on a tool that only does the one thing. But after watching this video you have answered every question I had, and I will be setting aside some some funds for the orion. Thank you for such a detailed video and if you decide to part with your Orion maybe we can work a deal. But keep up the good.
It's gone already. FB marketplace scooped it right up. And thanks for watching!
They're by General tools and Klein.
Seriously, seriously awesome video. And, for me, this may be one of the most important UA-cam videos I ever watch because I'm planning on starting a woodworking business, and if I had happened to be starting this before 2024, I would have probably watched a bunch of videos on wood moisture content meters and ended up getting one that was very precise, but as this video shows, not necessarily accurate. I probably wouldn't have gotten the Orion because it's quite expensive and I'd have figured well, a cheaper one is probably good enough. So this might have totally saved my ass. You have done the woodworking community a great service 👍👍
Thank you. And thank you for watching!
Based on this study, I just ordered an R and D pinless brand ($30 on Amazon) for both furniture and firewood. I’ll check in later if it flails.
Did it fail ?
Did it flail?
Commenting to get that algorithm going. Like your videos and your humor. Even if you're not John from Farmcraft haha
Thank you very much! Thanks for watching!
At the end of November 2023 I purchased a Klein Tools ET140 meter for about $42 and a Wagner Meters Orion 950 which was selling for about $600. The goal was to check red oak and black walnut boards that had been air drying for 15 years, but had to be coated with BoraCare to kill boring bugs. I was not sure of the accuracy of either meeter - in late February I tested the two meters side by side once the temperature reached 60 degrees. In short, the Klein Tools ET140 meter consistently measured the moisture content of red oak and black walnut boards at 7% to 8% lower than the measurement shown by a significantly more expensive Wagner Meters Orion 950. I left a review on Amazon for the Klein Tools ET140 showing the side by side comparison.
Thanks for posting your video, I now have greater confidence in the readings displayed by the Orion 950.
Full dorkness mode .......w00t!
Enjoyed this a lot. Thank You!
Glad you enjoyed it!
And, thank you for the effort and expense you invested making the video. Very nicely done.
Thanks for watching!
Great video! Do you think the R/D would work inside a crawl space to understand the moisture content of the wood or will the salt deposits left over from evaporation of water mess up the results? Just thinking from the standpoint that if the wood is over 60% humidity for 24+ hours we get the start of fungal growth accumulation.
I don't think it'll make a difference. Should work fine.
Thanks for your huge efforts! Great video
Thanks for watching!
I really enjoyed watching this. My take away is you feel the R&D is best value and accurate. How close was it to the Orion as far as accuracy?
He said the Orion was off by 3.66%, R&D was off by 16.18%. I interpret that to mean that the R&D could say a 10% moisture content wood was anywhere between 8.4-11.6% while the Orion would show it was somewhere in the 9.6-10.4% range.
It'd be good to repeat the test on some non flat and far from flat firewood pieces to see how pinless actually performs when operating in substandard conditions.
I was thinking this too! My ONLY use for one of these right now is very substandard conditions, so was hoping to get a sense of that too. The downsides of pinless that don’t matter to a woodworker, matter very much to me haha
did you test the 2nd unit/red on in this video ? ua-cam.com/video/2DUcteBbucM/v-deo.html
The R/D model I tested is the equivalent of that Klein unit.
Don need no stinkin' moisture meter for firewood. Those with knowledge and experience know how to judge without some device. 1. Look at the splits for weathering. 2. Are the splits cracked on ends ? 3. Knock a couple of splits together. If they "sound" then seasoned. 4. Know how long your stacks have been seasoning. Need more ? Oh yeah, if the split in the fire sizzles, it is NOT seasoned, not ready. Those cute $$$ MMs are for lumber, cabinet makers, not firewood. JMNSHO
You're the man dawg!
@@JohnWCH Hey for the $$$$$$ for this often unreliable tool, I can get my single malt.
Great video. I have to admit the thing that made me subscribe was the split second Tom Segura though
Awesome
FLIR not having that info printed on hand is insane.
How dare you! That would cost this Defense Contractor extra money!
Interesting. Did you publish your data anywhere? Guessimg all pinned read low? Or are they already compensating for surface dryness and estimating core numbers resultingin general but perhaps biassed error in readings?
damn dude stay still, getting motion sickness lol
I've gotten thousands of comments across the internet. And without question, this is the creepiest. You just told another man to "stay still".
Thank you for making UA-cam better! Would really appreciate if you share your measurements in a spreadsheet with some graphs and more details like reads low/high
Fantastic Video / Super comprehensive, I just ordered the R&D for a project. I am using HD 3/4 PT plywood for an open - trailer project and need to to know when I can stain it. Many Thanks Partner, you just gained a subscriber.
10 min in the video I am thinking this methodology is wonderful, but why not test a wider variety of meters? You already spent a ton of money on lab quality equipment? I’d love to see some of the more popular meters going head to head.
Great vid John,
Super comprehensive for the woodworking folks. I don't think there is any doubt they should buy a pinless meter, & the Orion model at that, if they can afford it.
Unfortunately I think the jury is still out for the plain old firewood burning people.
I'm still unclear if any of these are any good for checking firewood prior to burning.
Do you still own the test oven?
Could you perform another test on split wood, not dressed timber?
I understand it would be outside the official testing standards & procedures but would be a better real world test for the average firewood consumer.
Anyway hope you have one last firewood test left in you.
Hope you post a 'firewood meter only' buyers guides soon.
Great video regardless.
Oh my, of all places to find a Mommy. I hope you didn't use a washcloth to clean out the oven! (It goes without saying, but the video is amazing.)
Great investigation. I very much doubt it would have made any difference to the results, but to avoid the potential for criticism, I would have worn nitrile gloves while handling the samples.
Should have included a pin and pinless model from ligno. They're the industry standard. So many pros use them.
hi i have the rd, one thing i would like to understand is why the measurements change so dramatically, when you measure the same wood from soft wood to hardwood ,i know whar they are, BUT why the device measure so different values? try it on cedar for example, measure the both modes, and you see..thanks
Very informative video, thanks for all your work and expense. Answered just about all my questions. Sounds like pinless is definitely the way to go. Now that that was established, it would be interesting to see several pinless models tested, but I suspect that you have other things going on in your life 😄. I'm now subscribed and I look forward to checking out your past and future videos.
Harbor freight has a $10 moisture meter. I am going to get one and try it and see how it goes. ..
This was gold. I apreciate your effort. Thank you.
I am painting the siding of my house and it rained a lot tonight. I already applied the first coat of primer 2 days ago and I was wondering if getting a painless moisture meter would be practical. Would you recommend getting the ones you found to be accurate or it is a waste of time trying to measure moisture on a primed siding? Thank you very much in advance for your help
In my opinion, the pinless wouldn't even see the paint/primer.
Thank you very much for your reply.
I am not sure if I understand. In your opinion is it worth it or worthless to use a meter to decide whether or not a siding is dry enough to paint?
In my experience, surface rain, be it on firewood or any other kind of wood, won't absorb water so much that a meter is needed. Like, if it's dry to the touch, it should be good to go.
Thank you very much again for taking the time to reply.
Now I know what to do based on your video and these comments.
Subscribed👍
Thank you for putting in an extensive amount of effort. And your time and money. I learned a lot! 💪👍
Just so I fully understand... when you say the Orion has a 3.66 percent error margin, does that mean that it could report between 9.64% - 10.36% moisture content when the actual moisture content was 10%? Or could the Orion report 6,34% - 13.66% moisture content when actual content was 10%? Or does it mean that the full range of potential error was 3.66% of the actual moisture content number?
10.36% of what? The dried piece? That means the peace was 110.36% before drying? These calculations are confusing. I guess I have to read ASTM D4442 myself!
@@elbuggo It's absolute moisture content, contrary to air moisture content which is relative to the air temperature (since different air temperatures can hold different amounts of water). So 100% air moisture is not that you are under water, but rather that the air cannot hold more water at this temperature.
But with wood moisture content you weigh a piece of wood and then you put it in an oven. You take it out every four hours and weigh it again. Then you repeat that procedure until it hasn't lost any weight since the previous measurement - and at that point it is considered to have a 0% moisture content.
So if the piece of wood weighed 100 grams before the oven procedure, and it weighs 90 grams after the procedure - then that means that the wood must have had a 10% moisture content before the oven procedure.
@@AndersHejdenberg RE: if the piece of wood weighed 100 grams before the oven procedure, and it weighs 90 grams after the procedure - then that means that the wood must have had a 10% moisture content before the oven procedure.
I don't agree. Your sample had 11.11% moisture content. The dry sample is 100%. I found the calculations in ASTM D4442.
@@elbuggo Ah, gotcha - I though it was the other way around (which I suppose makes more sense now that I think of it). So 90 grams is 100%, which means that 10 grams would be 11.11%.
@@AndersHejdenberg That's exactly right! 100g =111.11%!
i would have liked to know how far off each meter was to your scientific method
Honestly dude? Sometimes I see my oven go all the way up to 420 degrees and then back all the way down to 69 degrees!
Dang!
Nice.
This man is PRO.
MY MAN
Many years age an old man told me how they checked moisture stabilization When they were building airplane frames out of wood. Cut off the end of the board 6” from end then slice off from cut end a 1/4” slice, lay it on its side and cut lengthwise down center and see if it curves. The side with the most moisture will expand to tell if the center or side contains more moisture. The cut had to be straight to use in an airframe
Interesting!
An interesting "point" is that the pinned meters can be tricked by conductivity of salts. For example, I've watched videos from the UK about testing moisture in walls of stone houses. Salts on the surface deposited by evaporation can give a false positive reading for moisture.
Interesting. Not something I have to deal with but may be important to others.
this was great. would like more result data detail, as well as more models tested. you spent $2k on the oven, which is awesome. now you can make cupcakes, but what about Klein? Dr. Meter? General? etc...let's get a bake off goin here ;-)
also, "that's not an oven!" 🤣
Subscribed.
Best test/study available on any topic on youtube because it was actually independently verified and followed calibration standards.
This video got a like, and its an injustice that its only got 7,000 views. Hopefully that number increases. Thanks for taking the time, spending the money, and making this video happen. Theres no other video anyone needs to watch regarding moisture meters. Period.
Thanks for the kind words and thank you very much for watching!
Well done. Have you thought of checking out inductive meters? The ones with a wand and ball... no not that wand and ball(s)
I have not. Haven't really crossed paths with them.
Holy fk! I dont care how accurate the FLIR is, fk that device!
Not a fan, huh?
Very good analysis!
Definitive but you don't explain how any of them work? 😂
Black magic
Protimeter Survey master, period, in my book at least.
Note that moisture meter do not actually measure moisture, that is an important thing to keep in mind.
Thanks for watching
What was the range of accuracy? Was best to worst only 10% different in the moisture content they reported?
Im not sure what youre asking exactly. But from what I measured, the worst performing unit to the best performing unit, was a roughly 2000% difference. (absolute error .6 vs. 6.35) in regards to accuracy.
While I love your sarcasm and truths, know that so many people use or have the General brand moisture tester, I would say it would have been nice to see how it compares too.
I really thought about it. I really did. But those pins made me so mad, I didn't want to give that company more money.
Am I the first to comment about how put the wood on a couch like like surrounded by the meters? 😂
Yes! Finally!
What's model of scale
Awesome job mate
Great Job= well done!
A proper way to do this, sadly not much views.
The story of my channel....it's fine tho, I'm appreciative of every view I get. Thanks for watching!
Hi and thanks for sharing, appreciated.
Didn't know pinned wood moisture meters should measure along the grain, thanks.
I've seen others split the wood and pin on the center to get an indication of how fully seasoned firewood is in the middle. I wonder how pinning on the outside rather than the inside would effect measures and cause the testing to lack fidelity with the design purpose and instructions for use of pinned meters when checking seasoned state of firewood. i.e. it seems the testing methods were not in line with checking if firewood is seasoned with pin moisture measures - a common use for them.
I found the moving forward and back, left and right while talking made watching take more effort, it was a bit too much for me so I scrolled down to lessen the sensory load.
Thanks again for sharing, I learned some stuff I didn't know, though I think the method had inbuilt bias because splitting the wood for the pinned meters would have enabled them to avoid the error of measuring too dry on the outside. i.e. the test didn't fairly look at using pinned meters for checking if firewood is seasoned while doing the opposite of what a method to test that would.
Cheers
sincerely
d
So, to be clear, you didn't watch the whole video, because I didn't stand still like a robot. Then, complained that I didn't do something that I explained, but you didn't see because you clicked through it?
Classic. Never change internet.
Hi@@JohnWCH
Thanks for your reply, I'm happy to have a chat.
SO, TO BE CLEAR, YOU DIDN'T WATCH THE WHOLE VIDEO,
No. Once I’d seen you read one set of instructions seeing it again was a waste of my time, I knew you were following manufacturer instructions so I didn’t need to watch your repetitions so I skipped ahead etc. _Basically, I found your presentation inefficiently repetitive in some parts._ Do you really think people want to watch you basically repeat yourself? I suggest you show it clearly and succinctly once then make it clear you did it for them all. That would get your good following of instructions across without dragging out the skinning of each cat, even though there are lots of ways to skin a cat, I didn’t need to see them all.
BECAUSE I DIDN'T STAND STILL LIKE A ROBOT.
That’s right. That was my point, you moved to much as I explained. Good to see you got my point.
THEN, COMPLAINED THAT I DIDN'T DO SOMETHING THAT I EXPLAINED,
That you didn’t do it made the testing biased.
Explaining it at the end didn’t change that fact.
It’s like you said at the start about how there are so many YT vids claiming to be doing science but they don’t know what they are doing and so they don’t do as well as they wanted to. So you’ve already pointed out your own error to be like that of so many others, so I know you understand.
Quality feedback pointing out basic errors in method is valuable and I’m happy to share it freely as you shared freely, thank you again.
BUT YOU DIDN'T SEE BECAUSE YOU CLICKED THROUGH IT?
I saw it after commenting and before you replied. I judged the explanation didn’t change the unfair method and results. However it clearly admits that the method was not as good as it could have been. i.e. you actually know the testing was biased. You aimed and claimed to be doing a better comparison than others, I don’t think you hit your goal this time.
CLASSIC. NEVER CHANGE INTERNET.
We’re part of a society that *believes* in science but a lot of the population doesn’t know how to *do or judge* it well.
As a former science teacher I think your testing design had significant bias. What you do with my feedback is up to you.
Cheers
sincerely
d
Appreciate all the effort going into this video! Subscribed :)
Thanks for watching!
🙏👏👏👏👏great video
Great job dude 👊
Hello.
16:13 - What tablet is it?
What do you mean?
@@JohnWCH the computer/mobil/tablet on his hand.
What brand and model is it?
And is great?
It's my Samsung Galaxy S23. Mad yes it's great.
@@JohnWCH :D aaaa.
Looks so big.
Like tablet.
Thanks
Thanks for a very helpful video.
Glad it was helpful!
With the repeatability on the tessman, just account for the error. Write on it or something to remember the number.
The machine was 30% +/-. It's a pretty big swing. You could sooner guess the moisture content at that point.
@@JohnWCH I guess I must have missed something. My understanding was that it would be the same percentage off every time.
Nope it was not accurate in either direction.
I like your scientific approach to assess the accuracy and would have appreciated a higher focus on presenting result details. A table showing measured percentages against determined percentages from the oven drying procedure. For a fair comparison of the pin meter you could have put 6 metal pins in each wood sample to ensure that both instruments “see” the same moisture and having 3 sample locations tells you how homogeneous the moisture is distributed within the wood. A measurement difference between the instruments is then only due to difference in resistance measurement or applied internal calibration. All the pin meter does is measuring the resistance, which can be done with any simple multimeter, and converts it into percent moisture based on an internal calibration for different materials. Again, a detailed result table would allow conclusions on how good the internal calibrations were for different types of wood and if a recalibration by the user would make sense
Don’t talk about my wife like that
Sorry?
@@JohnWCH “wood moisture meter”
My man!
Repeatability can be enough. I test rough turned bowls, and just note the number. If it's stable over a few weeks, it's done. The particular number is irrelevant. Any air drying to equilibrium can be done this way, and I would argue this is the most useful thing to know in the first place.
I would be interested to see how the pin meters preform with the pins all the way inserted. I don't know what the user manuals for those products say, but in my experience you only get some accuracy when you hammer them in a good 1/4". Physical robustness is one of the most important things for pin meters.
Sure that would work and believe me when I tell you, I was giving those pins the business, when I was pushing them in.
For a woodworker, I'd argue that accuracy is much less important that repeability. Keep scraps of well dried wood in your shop, then compare the wood in question to those samples.
Our elders had no use for this. Learn how to manage your garden with as few gadgets as possible.
What?
I refreshed the lab experiment fundamentals used to do 13 years ago in engineering college, thanks to this video.
One thing he did not test which seems to be a shame is calibration. The main distinction between cheap and expensive meters seems to me to be whether you can adjust for the woods density. The absolute moisture content is generally not the main issue in woodworking (more important in firewood). What wood workers need to know is is the wood going to be stable in the environment it will be in. So if you are building furniture that will live in a heated living space what is the humidity in that space and how does that compare to my stock? You can set that by simply measuring a piece of furniture that is in a similar environment. So I measure an oak table and the meter says it has 20% moisture. It doesn't matter if it is really 15 or 25% as long as the reading on my stock is the same the new wood should not move. That would be fine if I am building the new stuff out of oak but what if I am using oak for framing but maple for draws. This is where the species calibration is essential. To get an accurate comparison between different species you have to be able to adjust for their different densities. This is far more important than absolute accuracy.
In the "review" portion of each one of the units, I talked about literally what you're talking about and their ability to do what you're asking.
He talks too much. Bye
Go back to tik Tok.
Waving your hands around, moving around while you talk, and taking longer than necessary to convey the information are forms of echopraxia which is ignorance.
Echopraxis is mirroring. Hence the "echo". Go back to Reddit and try using big words to impress over there.
@@JohnWCH I came to this video in search of science based information, as it was asserted as being. What followed was an atrocity void of reason. By the speakers own words he attempted to "punch it up" in an effort to gain more appeal from his viewers, and at the expense of anyone actually needing the information he claimed to be sharing. He did this after taking advice from, presumably, his partner who advised him that it was boring and/or put the viewer to sleep. I came looking for information and was told that this video contained the best information on this topic on the internet. The speaker lied when he made that claim. Instead what he showed was that he is an androphobic epicene omega male who takes orders from an emotional feminine mind rooted in ignorance. This is something common to see on content creators' channels. They indeed mirror one another engaging mindless echopraxia and echolalia in an effort to satisfy their own emotional desires and feelings. Anyone taking advice from a mind rooted in ignorance will suffer the consequences of doing so. Did I learn anything from watching the video? No, I already knew everything that I just stated prior to watching the video.
Correct.