Although rarely achieved there is nothing wrong with pursuing perfection. If I didn't want to improve my quality i would not be watching your video's. I started milling just a few years ago as an old man but pass your wisdom along to my son and nephew to try to keep true milling and quality going. Thanks for the video and please keep them coming.
That's very kind, I appreciate the comments! I agree completely, if you are going to do something, try to do it right. Sawing is fun because there is always something to learn.
Not confusing in the least bit. Thanks for the explanation of extractives and how they effect drying. Only thing I'm kinda confused about is do I use her new sponges or the old
If you're going to use her new ones, you better build you a high quality dog house first. Even if you're planning on using her old ones, you'd still better practice your "Duck 'n Runs" first.
Thank you, Professor. Never before heard of this information. It's nice to be s student again with s great teacher. Still many questions as this relates to selecting lumber at box stores.
Great explanation. Thanks for sharing. Would be interested in hearing more about the effects on different wood species. You mentioned poplar and red oak. Curious about others based on your experience.
Robert, I was recently watching another UA-camr that said you should use stickers of the same species of wood. I kinda remember you saying if cutting hardware use software stickers and if cutting softwood use hardwood stickers. Can please confirm? Also is the and wood and stickers to avoid do to staining? Thanks, Andy
Yes, that is a common misconception and urban legend that is false. Definitely use hardwood vs softwood runners for pallets, and yes, it would be a good idea for stickers also, except softwood stickers like pine just don’t last very long for repeated use, and don’t use any sticker of any species that is very porous and can trap moisture. The stickers I use are assorted hardwood, everything from oak to hickory to cherry to sycamore and the main thing is to use stickers that are kiln dry or at least air dry, to keep from trapping moisture and causing sticker stain. Wet stickers are bad, and most people will stack and store their stickers in a protected area. I try to get many kiln cycles out of my assorted hardwood stickers, especially the ones I pay for, and I never sort by species when I’m using them because it doesn’t matter. There some species that you don’t want to use, such as any dark wood, such as walnut, which will stain light colored woods. I don’t like basswood either, it traps moisture, and not a big fan of soft maple stickers because of the sugars in the wood. In fact, some commercial operations use only extremely hard assorted exotics for stickers for their domestic hardwood lumber, as they last longer through their automated stackers and destackers. I’ve also used PVC stickers and even some made with extruded thermoplastics. So nope, use most whatever species you have, softwood against hardwood is best, but assorted hardwood is fine, and certainly, there is no need to sticker with the same wood. This is a good topic for a video.
Great info that makes all the sense in the world. One thing I would like to see is a 'like all videos' button on the main channel page. If I were a new viewer having to like each and every past video would be a chore. Liking them all and then just watching them for the info would be much better in my opinion.
Great stuff, thank you. I remember reading in a timber framing book, years ago, that Beech actually swells as it dries. That is why it is preferred for pegs in mortice and tenon framing, installed green, and then gets tighter. I thought that was odd, do you have any experience with this?
Interesting question, I know it shrinks when kiln dried, and has a lot of movement as it does, which is why is not desirable for commercial lumber but maybe why it's used for pegs. American Beech has a radial shrinkage during drying of 5.5% and white oak has a radial shrinkage of 5.6% so it behaves very much like white oak. Red Oak will actually shrink less, with a radial shrinkage of 4.7%. I know an expert timber framer, I will ask him.
Great topic. When you stack your boards for drying, if you paint or coat the ends of the boards, does this make a difference on the amount of warping and cracking of the boards?
What are your thoughts on pulling the extractives from lumber species that are highly susceptible to movement prior to drying the lumber. Especially in boards with large amounts of sap wood...is the juice worth the squeeze?
Good question, but I don't think so, at least not in large quantities. From a monetary standpoint, the NHLA has allowed so much movement in the boards, the lumber will still meet grade by doing nothing. No reason to expend resources on it. However, for folks like us, the best way is to just know which boards move more than others and cut off the sapwood with the sawmill. Some people use techniques for small pieces, but that is not useful for moderate quantities .
Yes, pine can have a lot of stress (carrot peel), although not as much issue with extractives stress. When sawing dimensional lumber it important to always put the stress in the face bow direction to keep the edges straight so walls, floor and ceiling lay flat.
Robert, a bit long winded but I get that sometimes people don’t get it. What would be good would be to know what woods is it ok to have sapwood could be included in drying. I would also like to know a bit more about drying different species of wood if you have some free time. Andy
That would be a good subject, especially about drying different species of wood. Most people don't realize how complex it can get to do it correctly, specie to species.
I really would appreciate some drying videos. I don’t saw for selling only for my use. I don’t mind taking extra time in the sawing process as I saw for grade and orientation of the grain. Only to fail in the drying process.
I used to soak my greenwood carvings in an acrylic solution. think the product was called pentacryl not sure on spelling. It dulled the luster of the finished wood but nothing ever bowed twisted or cracked. similar concept, just replacing the water in the cells with acrylic
Great comment! That's exactly the same, I wish I had thought of that example when doing the video. I have used Pentacryl myself. I guess instead of being an "extractive" it would be an "Insertive."
White oak is an odd species simply because it has inherently clogged pores because it is waterproof, which is why it's use in boats. White oak moves a lot as it dries, it can be very cranky.
Some wood products react far better to being kiln dried than other Douglas Fir most obviously or "pine" as opposed to hardwoods yes, absolutely. When you go to the paper mill tho they show you how to solve this problem big time by adding "whiteners" or a chemical that dries out wood turning it into paper products mainly but also ahem *"dries out hardwood"* ahem by bathing in a vat of chemicals another more easy way is to burn your wood ... not burn it up but char it after debarking to act as a barrier to prevent moisture escaping hence why the bending is happening in the first instance "stripped to bark off." Need to add that bark back on whilst at the same time drying it this be done by coating with a flame to produce a charcoal like surface😊 Can of course use green timber as well as the only reason to dry wood is to make it easier to work with and transport😊😊
So, when you dry the wood do you try to minimize sap pull and how? Do you just let sap pull occur and then plane out the warp? If a board gets to looking like the McDonalds arch can it be fixed? Thanks
Yes, there are things that can be attempted to minimize the internal stresses of the wood during the air drying as well as kiln drying. Some of it is magic and voodoo, and it works sometimes, but the best way to dry flat lumber is to saw flat lumber.
Some years ago, a buddy asked me how to fix some crooked and bowed boards that came out of his kiln. Me being a smart alert, I told him the secret was to sacrifice a few chickens and say some incantations and maybe it would work. I forgot about the whole thing until a year or two later, we were at a kiln drying get together with some real experts, and my buddy baited some people to ask the question and he loudly said he used the "Yellowhammer Voodoo Technique" and although it wasn't filmed, it involved him dancing naked around the kiln at midnight with a couple headless chickens and the next morning the boards were magically straight! Of course it was a joke, but there were some real professional kiln dryers in the audience, who had no sense of humor, and they just kept shaking their heads and saying "stuff like that doesn't work!". They were serious thinking us rednecks were doing witch doctor stuff or something! Anyway, after a few seconds, the whole place burst out laughing when my buddy explained it was just a joke! However, the YellowHammer Voodoo Kiln Dance has become part of kiln drying folklore and is the easiest explanation on how to "fix" hard to fix wood!
I get it. At least I'm starting to understand. The sapwood and the Heartwood dry at different rates because the heartwood has more solids type material makeup than the sapwood. Even though the cellular structures are the same, the solids in the heartwood change the way the wood shrinks when it dries just like the sponges that you where talking about. The one with the dirt can't shrink in the same way because of the dirt in the sponge. Now, with the wood the heartwood is like the sponge with the dirt is more solid naturally and can't shrink the same causing a the wood to draw and or bow because of the way it shrinks when it dries. By George, I think I got it. Give this monkey a peanut. Really, it's pretty simple if a person don't over think it. Like the poplar, the shrinkage if more the same. A person can usually see the difference in the poplar by color and texture (hardness). It pretty much looks the same in color and similar texture through most of the wood. It appears plain to see by just looking at the color variation of the wood. Am i mostly right? Thanks for your knowledge that you have and in sharing it with your experience with others to understand hardwood lumber products better. Thanks!
From your response to @jamiem853, I take it American Beech may be in the same family as European beech, but more like a crazy Uncle Albert and not really stable and dependable enough for making things like work benches from that you really don't want to have to flatten every few months, let alone weeks, or, God forbid, days.
I didnt get it - i thought its about how to saw pre-dried wood/logs. I have seen some problem sawing hardwood after it was sitting for 1-2years or even longer. sapwood = bad... that should be clear to anybody now. :-)
Cherry seems to be the worst! I try an remove all the sapwood on cherry. You see cherry listed as red one face for sale...... ya, that will make your face red using that board.
The pictures really help show the effect
They say a picture is worth a thousand words!
Thanks for taking the time and effort to educate us , I am a woodworker not a sawyer but the information helps me understand wood movement too.
Thanks! Maybe some of this can help when you are buying wood of your projects.
Although rarely achieved there is nothing wrong with pursuing perfection. If I didn't want to improve my quality i would not be watching your video's. I started milling just a few years ago as an old man but pass your wisdom along to my son and nephew to try to keep true milling and quality going. Thanks for the video and please keep them coming.
That's very kind, I appreciate the comments! I agree completely, if you are going to do something, try to do it right. Sawing is fun because there is always something to learn.
Another great video, very helpful when selecting wood for furniture projects.
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you professor Milton for another great milling seminar!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I have sawed a lot of hardwood and you are 100% correct. Well done.....
Good to hear and thanks!
Not alot of hard woods out west, soft woods here.
Appreciate your talents and skills for milling wood correctly , thanks sir
Thanks!
Not confusing in the least bit. Thanks for the explanation of extractives and how they effect drying. Only thing I'm kinda confused about is do I use her new sponges or the old
Might want to use the old one!
If you're going to use her new ones, you better build you a high quality dog house first. Even if you're planning on using her old ones, you'd still better practice your "Duck 'n Runs" first.
Thank you, Professor. Never before heard of this information. It's nice to be s student again with s great teacher. Still many questions as this relates to selecting lumber at box stores.
Thanks!
Great job explaining this.
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks Robert another great Video a big difference on why people should get rid of the sap wood
Thanks!
LOL , Love your humor and especially the facts, keep it coming
Will do!
The miss said the dishwasher needed a clean anyway so after making me do that she said to tell you thanks for the advice.
I hope I didn't get you in trouble! Thanks for commenting!
Another interesting video from the Professor of Hobby Hardwoods.
Thanks!
Good information!
100% correct. Cherry can be a nightmare with sapwood on it, I have seen it curve so much it looked like a boat propeller!
Great explanation, Robert, and easy to understand!
Glad it wasn't too boring and confusing!
Great explanation. Thanks for sharing. Would be interested in hearing more about the effects on different wood species. You mentioned poplar and red oak. Curious about others based on your experience.
Great suggestion!
love watching your videos very educational and you explain detail very well. Thank you for sharing your expert advice 👍👍
Thanks!
Robert,
I was recently watching another UA-camr that said you should use stickers of the same species of wood. I kinda remember you saying if cutting hardware use software stickers and if cutting softwood use hardwood stickers. Can please confirm? Also is the and wood and stickers to avoid do to staining?
Thanks,
Andy
Yes, that is a common misconception and urban legend that is false. Definitely use hardwood vs softwood runners for pallets, and yes, it would be a good idea for stickers also, except softwood stickers like pine just don’t last very long for repeated use, and don’t use any sticker of any species that is very porous and can trap moisture. The stickers I use are assorted hardwood, everything from oak to hickory to cherry to sycamore and the main thing is to use stickers that are kiln dry or at least air dry, to keep from trapping moisture and causing sticker stain. Wet stickers are bad, and most people will stack and store their stickers in a protected area. I try to get many kiln cycles out of my assorted hardwood stickers, especially the ones I pay for, and I never sort by species when I’m using them because it doesn’t matter. There some species that you don’t want to use, such as any dark wood, such as walnut, which will stain light colored woods. I don’t like basswood either, it traps moisture, and not a big fan of soft maple stickers because of the sugars in the wood. In fact, some commercial operations use only extremely hard assorted exotics for stickers for their domestic hardwood lumber, as they last longer through their automated stackers and destackers. I’ve also used PVC stickers and even some made with extruded thermoplastics. So nope, use most whatever species you have, softwood against hardwood is best, but assorted hardwood is fine, and certainly, there is no need to sticker with the same wood. This is a good topic for a video.
@@HobbyHardwoodAlabama Thanks for the feedback.
Great explanation!
Thanks!
Great info that makes all the sense in the world. One thing I would like to see is a 'like all videos' button on the main channel page. If I were a new viewer having to like each and every past video would be a chore. Liking them all and then just watching them for the info would be much better in my opinion.
I wish it did also. I looked for one and couldn't;t find it. If you know of one, let me know, please! Thanks for commenting!
Great stuff, thank you.
I remember reading in a timber framing book, years ago, that Beech actually swells as it dries.
That is why it is preferred for pegs in mortice and tenon framing, installed green, and then gets tighter.
I thought that was odd, do you have any experience with this?
Interesting question, I know it shrinks when kiln dried, and has a lot of movement as it does, which is why is not desirable for commercial lumber but maybe why it's used for pegs. American Beech has a radial shrinkage during drying of 5.5% and white oak has a radial shrinkage of 5.6% so it behaves very much like white oak. Red Oak will actually shrink less, with a radial shrinkage of 4.7%. I know an expert timber framer, I will ask him.
Great topic. When you stack your boards for drying, if you paint or coat the ends of the boards, does this make a difference on the amount of warping and cracking of the boards?
Not warping but it does help end cracking.
Loved it.
Thanks!
Thanks Robert another great video
Thanks!
good video and job as always take care, be safe and well.
Thanks, you too!
What are your thoughts on pulling the extractives from lumber species that are highly susceptible to movement prior to drying the lumber. Especially in boards with large amounts of sap wood...is the juice worth the squeeze?
Good question, but I don't think so, at least not in large quantities. From a monetary standpoint, the NHLA has allowed so much movement in the boards, the lumber will still meet grade by doing nothing. No reason to expend resources on it. However, for folks like us, the best way is to just know which boards move more than others and cut off the sapwood with the sawmill. Some people use techniques for small pieces, but that is not useful for moderate quantities .
Good teach from the guru 😅
Thanks!
That was super useful.
Glad to hear!
any suggestions on keeping pine flat as possible, I know it isn't hardwood, but cutting what sells around here, many want pine dimensional lumber
Yes, pine can have a lot of stress (carrot peel), although not as much issue with extractives stress. When sawing dimensional lumber it important to always put the stress in the face bow direction to keep the edges straight so walls, floor and ceiling lay flat.
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻always appreciated
You too!
Robert, a bit long winded but I get that sometimes people don’t get it. What would be good would be to know what woods is it ok to have sapwood could be included in drying.
I would also like to know a bit more about drying different species of wood if you have some free time.
Andy
That would be a good subject, especially about drying different species of wood. Most people don't realize how complex it can get to do it correctly, specie to species.
I really would appreciate some drying videos. I don’t saw for selling only for my use. I don’t mind taking extra time in the sawing process as I saw for grade and orientation of the grain. Only to fail in the drying process.
Anyone ever try adding them there extractives to sap wood, maybe by soaking? Many thanks professor for the skool teachin'.
I used to soak my greenwood carvings in an acrylic solution. think the product was called pentacryl not sure on spelling. It dulled the luster of the finished wood but nothing ever bowed twisted or cracked. similar concept, just replacing the water in the cells with acrylic
Great comment! That's exactly the same, I wish I had thought of that example when doing the video. I have used Pentacryl myself. I guess instead of being an "extractive" it would be an "Insertive."
Yes, I should have thought of it and given examples of wood stabilizers. Good comment!
@@tomlastname9163 Know anyone trying propylene glycol for stabilizing green hardwood?
What about White Oak? Thanks
White oak is an odd species simply because it has inherently clogged pores because it is waterproof, which is why it's use in boats. White oak moves a lot as it dries, it can be very cranky.
Some wood products react far better to being kiln dried than other Douglas Fir most obviously or "pine" as opposed to hardwoods yes, absolutely. When you go to the paper mill tho they show you how to solve this problem big time by adding "whiteners" or a chemical that dries out wood turning it into paper products mainly but also ahem *"dries out hardwood"* ahem by bathing in a vat of chemicals another more easy way is to burn your wood ... not burn it up but char it after debarking to act as a barrier to prevent moisture escaping hence why the bending is happening in the first instance "stripped to bark off." Need to add that bark back on whilst at the same time drying it this be done by coating with a flame to produce a charcoal like surface😊
Can of course use green timber as well as the only reason to dry wood is to make it easier to work with and transport😊😊
Yes, you are correct.
So, when you dry the wood do you try to minimize sap pull and how? Do you just let sap pull occur and then plane out the warp? If a board gets to looking like the McDonalds arch can it be fixed? Thanks
I think the gist of it was cut boards from heart wood only if you want high quality lumber
Yes, there are things that can be attempted to minimize the internal stresses of the wood during the air drying as well as kiln drying. Some of it is magic and voodoo, and it works sometimes, but the best way to dry flat lumber is to saw flat lumber.
@@HobbyHardwoodAlabama Magic and voodoo?😳. I can’t wait to see the video on this.😂
Some years ago, a buddy asked me how to fix some crooked and bowed boards that came out of his kiln. Me being a smart alert, I told him the secret was to sacrifice a few chickens and say some incantations and maybe it would work. I forgot about the whole thing until a year or two later, we were at a kiln drying get together with some real experts, and my buddy baited some people to ask the question and he loudly said he used the "Yellowhammer Voodoo Technique" and although it wasn't filmed, it involved him dancing naked around the kiln at midnight with a couple headless chickens and the next morning the boards were magically straight! Of course it was a joke, but there were some real professional kiln dryers in the audience, who had no sense of humor, and they just kept shaking their heads and saying "stuff like that doesn't work!". They were serious thinking us rednecks were doing witch doctor stuff or something! Anyway, after a few seconds, the whole place burst out laughing when my buddy explained it was just a joke! However, the YellowHammer Voodoo Kiln Dance has become part of kiln drying folklore and is the easiest explanation on how to "fix" hard to fix wood!
@@HobbyHardwoodAlabama That’s crazy.😂
I get it. At least I'm starting to understand. The sapwood and the Heartwood dry at different rates because the heartwood has more solids type material makeup than the sapwood. Even though the cellular structures are the same, the solids in the heartwood change the way the wood shrinks when it dries just like the sponges that you where talking about. The one with the dirt can't shrink in the same way because of the dirt in the sponge. Now, with the wood the heartwood is like the sponge with the dirt is more solid naturally and can't shrink the same causing a the wood to draw and or bow because of the way it shrinks when it dries. By George, I think I got it. Give this monkey a peanut. Really, it's pretty simple if a person don't over think it. Like the poplar, the shrinkage if more the same. A person can usually see the difference in the poplar by color and texture (hardness). It pretty much looks the same in color and similar texture through most of the wood. It appears plain to see by just looking at the color variation of the wood. Am i mostly right? Thanks for your knowledge that you have and in sharing it with your experience with others to understand hardwood lumber products better. Thanks!
Yes, you pretty much nailed it! Great job!
Thank you Robert. Good explanation.
Glad you liked it
From your response to @jamiem853, I take it American Beech may be in the same family as European beech, but more like a crazy Uncle Albert and not really stable and dependable enough for making things like work benches from that you really don't want to have to flatten every few months, let alone weeks, or, God forbid, days.
Beech likes to move, I call it a "restless" species.
I didnt get it - i thought its about how to saw pre-dried wood/logs. I have seen some problem sawing hardwood after it was sitting for 1-2years or even longer. sapwood = bad... that should be clear to anybody now. :-)
Yes- Sapwood = bad!
I don't get it. What's the joke regarding sapwood and AI?
Maybe the the AI doesn't have the 'extractives' that stabilize thought.
It felt like I was over explaining, the same way some recent political figure over explained AI. Anyway, if it fell flat, most of my jokes do!
It felt like I was over explaining, the same way some recent political figure over explained AI. Anyway, if it fell flat, most of my jokes do!
Cherry seems to be the worst! I try an remove all the sapwood on cherry. You see cherry listed as red one face for sale...... ya, that will make your face red using that board.
Yes, it can be a nightmare with sapwood!