Can I Use Fencing in Fighting?
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- Опубліковано 22 лип 2021
- In this episode I stop by Fencing club Mid-South Fencing to see if I can learn how to implement Fencing Footwork into my Martial Arts Training! After that, I see if I can mix it with my Karate to spar against some of my Muay Thai friends! Does Fencing Footwork work for Muay Thai or Karate?!
Big shout out to Coach Jen for showing me the ropes!
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Karate, Taekwondo, Muay Thai, Kung Fu, MMA, UFC, Sensei Seth, Kata, Kumite, Sparring, Fight, Boxing, Kick, Side Kick, Yoko Geri, Roundhouse Kick, Spinning Wheel Kick, Tricking, Bottlecap Challenge - Спорт
So… what’s next?!
Rugby 🏉
Parkour?!
You're on a roll with Bruce Lee themed content... maybe Western Boxing next?
React to the anime Baki?
Hema or Lethwei
As a younger man, I joined my college fencing club. I got stabbed in the head hundreds of times a day. Very humbling experience.
cool. can you maybe make a video on fencing? it would be very interesting to hear more about your insights.
Formal Fencing doesn’t let me exploit the mean teep and snap kicks I have cause of Ramsey, and a more orthodox stance has so much more crossover (loss of reach, w/e), but yeah… its like trying to visually track a wasp. Honestly, the importance of footwork in predicting an opponent’s actions is probably the most valuable thing poking and slashing fools with a blunt, imho.
Was that part of the inspiration for your recent sword and shield video?
and thousands on the resting arm...killing it for like 10min each time? :D
Found out about Sensei Seth from Ramsey. Shout out to Ramsey and Seth for excellent content 🙏.
OH SNAP!! They fight on a leash?! It's like that one Jet Li movie. 😮
Hahahaha
This comment gave me life
The "leash" is actually the electrical cords which read who hit who first.
Also, you tried epee, try saber instead! Much closer to boxing imho
Unleashed
Karatist/HEMA fencer here. Recently I was on a tournament, where a guy heard his opponent is a musician, so he practiced to attack out of rhythm. IDK if it helped, but he won...
Yes, this reminds me of my current sensei who is also a musician, he talks about martial artists who like to bounce. Usually newer people. So if you're sparring and you're good, you can time your attack to when they're in the air slightly.
So I am sure you have heard about tempo if you study HEMA. Without seeing any of it in person this sounds like a beautiful use of tempo and counter tempo, coming in just too fast or just too slow based on previous exchanges, then coming in at awkward points with counter tempo. Possibly even to the point of risking giving points to the opponent but as they are unexpected getting away scot free.
Stop thrust always gets the newbies...
@@etherealicer what's that move?
@@kbanghart The stop thrust. Basically, you move backwards, stop and at the same time you thrust your sword forward. You can't do that unarmed, as you don't have energy to do damage, but with a sword you don't need it, the opponent will impale himself on your sword (btw, probably one of the best moves for self-defense with a stick as or an umbrella).
Speaking as a fencer, this was very interesting to watch. Honestly it doesn't surprise me that your legs were so exposed - fencing footwork is based on the assumption that there's a three foot spike of steel sticking out from both combatant's dominant hand so your opponent will never be close enough to kick you. It just doesn't work that well once your opponent is as close enough to use an unarmed martial art and obviously sport fencing doesn't permit grappling - although in historical fencing once an opponent is in grappling range then you largely forget about the sword and grapple back, trying to use trips and throws to put your opponent on the ground before delivering a killing blow with your weapon.
Fundamentally, it's the length of the blade and the way it stretches out striking distance that makes Fencing so different - with knife fighting you still have to enter grappling range to strike, even if you have a huge offensive advantage when you do. With fencing the opponents are considered to be "in measure" when the blades lightly cross at the tips - so almost six feet apart. The range at which an unarmed martial artist is able to start throwing punches and kicks is the range at which a historical fencer would be considering switching from bladework to grappling.
That's said, it's gratifying that you did find something useful in your fencing training - and I'm not at all surprised that it was the Fleche. Although using explosive movements to cover long distances suddenly is not unique to fencing, it is something of a signature of the sport.
I also notice that in high level bareknuckle and boxing kinda lunges and closing after are quite used, also counter attacks and overall jab work is very similar.
First day and he broke her sword!! 🤯
I’m strong like that. Unswordable
He wears the red armour on the inside. It's like his mentality, bro.
It's actually pretty common in epee if you get your point caught on someone's bell
He does have quite a lot of mass to stop the sword with
Breaking a blade is a more common occurrence than you'd think.
I fenced for 4 years as a teen before I started karate. The explosiveness you need in fencing was the biggest thing to transfer over. When I started sparring as a kyu I was schooling people who were higher rank than me because I could get my jab out fast and from really far away.
I'm really surprised schools don't incorporate this stuff. I guess they have to keep the good stuff so they don't get schooled by their students 🤷🏽♂️
@@ThepurposeofTime any good sensei should incorporate other styles, and weapons. And they should spar with others outside what they teach, for the experience.
Bare Knuckle boxers used to use fencing footwork, throwing jabs on a lunge.
You could use the explosive lunge to get in for blitzes.
Also, go do some HEMA now, to see what swordsmen would do up close in grappling range. :D
The problem with modern olympic fencing for martial arts is that it's quite strictly linear, the exchange stops at the first touch, and there is no game for when things get up close and personal. But you can still take the technique for generating explosive forward and backward movement and it's useful!
Would love to see some HEMA. And also, isn't the weakness of competition fencing pretty much the same for most martial arts tournaments outside of wrestling, boxing and mma?
@@jamesjones7526 Not quite, I'm sure various kickboxing tournaments and quite a few grappling tournaments lack those limitations.
Yes, do HEMA please
@@jamesjones7526 No, I personally quite dislike Olympic fencing because it tries to act as if it's a martial art of about swordsman ship when it's not. Olympic fencing is only a "martial art" because you can apply that definition to anything, people like to play up the whole "dude we're like stabbing with swords!!!" even though Olympic fencing is basically just playing tag with insanely light and weak "weapons" which would be at a massive disadvantage against any sword actually used for combat.
ua-cam.com/video/bH8auVrYL3M/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/a-1Y31I4F-k/v-deo.html obviously I link Matt Easton videos since he's incredibly knowledgeable. Olympic fencing is just a sport and I am jealous that hema is not nearly as popular even though it is in my opinion but admittedly almost objectively better and cooler.
Spitting facts
He's 1 step closer to just becoming ras al ghul
Oh heck yes lol
@@SenseiSeth you have to become an idea
Raseth al ghul
@Grappling Friends a batman villain
ah, a man of culture.
All martial arts in the same room include fencing
A round-up of the major weapon arts would be fun. Kendo, iaido, fencing, HEMA, escrima, NUNCHUCKS
Olympic fencing isn't a martial art. It's a sport. Just being facetious.
You should start a series like fight quest. That would be so awesome.
Mind body and kick ass moves from about a decade ago did something similar, although it was very kung fu focused (so there was plenty of bullshido in it, frankly) but it was an interesting show at times.
Damn Seth just accidentally discovered JKD's straight blast
Lmao ye it really reminded me of Bruce's stance
Yupppp
I didn't want to be the first to say it but so much of this is JKD from Bruce fencing and reading Aldo Nadi and stuff.
Bruce Lee apparently studied fencing, in fact, when researched for JKD
@@KurtAngle89Yeah he did. He did some comps too apparently.
I have to admire your commitment to the bit man, a lot of folks would have abandoned the experiment after the first ten leg kicks.
As a fencer turned MMA fighter this is sick
I practiced Kajukenbo in the 1970's. My instructor encouraged us to explore other martial arts as we progressed. I fenced with my university club for two years and I found the experience really rewarding. Thanks for the video.
As an epeeist of many years, after trying boxing for the first time I TOTALLY understood it as just fencing but with both of your hands!
Also fleche was my bread and butter! Now thanks to you I want to try fleche in sparring!
Now after watching you spar I realised some things. First of all, fencing stance can work if you become just as comfortable in regular as southpaw and constantly switching stances
Second of all,don't forget you tried it only for few hours ! Those techniques can be improved a ton through practice!
Also I am a former competitive boxer and I was a competitive fencer (epeeist),I agree🥊!
Olympic Fencing?! When is a HEMA style coming up? :p
In HEMA he might be able to use some of that grappling he learned from Shintaro.
@@alexsitaras6508 definitely, but first he’ll need some weapon basics to get into grappling distance! It’d be very exciting to see
Yoo, that was the first thing that came to mind
YEsss Please!! This I have to see!!
Fence with your foot too, use the foot work to jab in sidekicks and snap kicks.
Like Bruce Lee.
Kinda poo poo you get to only punch a guy who gets to punch, kick, knee, clinch, elbow.
Yea Bruce learned how to fence a little from his brother. Bruce fights like Benny the Jet with his strong side forward. The fencing foot slide let’s Bruce throw jab and kick really fast. There’s a slow mo clip of him demonstrating a jab feint to side kick on a movie extra who doubted Bruce Lee’s speed. It’s a cool video. Benny the Jet took Bruce Lee’s stance to the next level though. Great fighter
@@moustachio334 Benny watched Bruce at the Long Beach event. He said he was completely inspired by bruce lee.
Left handed orthodox, like right handed south paw. Again.... this is all slowly revealing itself despite so many people trying to destroy bruce
10:35 HEMA
🖐👁👄👁
HEMA is a martial art, its in the name
Anything specific? I really wanna see him try longsword lol
@@WhyName yup, I’m also hopeful about longsword
If he does I hope he finds a competent club tho
@@Fish2049 if he can put in the time and money, he could travel to Canada and do a Skallagrim crossover
@@jc-kj8yc that’d be cool! However Skall’s a bit apathetic
I feel like fencing integrates with boxing really well
Specifically with the jab
Explore hema wrestling with modern grappling/throwing arts like bjj
Seeing you go for an F5 makes me want to see Sensei Seth the pro wrestler.
As former fencer this has me feeling nostalgic
When I fence (epee as well), I actually sometimes treat the guard as one hand, and the tip as the other hand. So you use the guard to pin the opponent's blade, and then use the tip to make the hit while their blade is pinned.
And you can treat the semi-circular and circular parries like grappling moves.
I did a 2 month fencing course at the local university, had an Olympic coach running the program.
First thing I noticed was the overlap with the kyokushin karate I learned - they fight out of niko-ashi dache.
Other karate thing I noticed was distance drills. You touch sword tips, then one leads and the other follows, maintaining distance with the swords in contact. Then progress to doing it with swords touched once, then held upright until the end when you touch again to see if you maintained distance. I found this amazing for my maai skill. In karate we had similar drills but we didn't do the distance check at the end and didn't get the explanation of what it was for, big difference. Instead my maai before was just from hard knocks.
The fake shuffle backward was actually one of my tournament moves from when I did JJJ tournaments (throw, strikes, grappling). Instead of using the lead hand though, I'd use a lead side kick. With fencing the sword is the obvious weapon.
The lunge I learned was done differently than the one you did - they had you almost fall into front splits like your lead heel slipped on a banana peel, and your knee snaps into place at the last second and you land in the lunge.
I'd say distance management and to a lesser extent timing were cross functional skills I picked up from fencing.
I was a fencer before I started my martial arts career, definitely gave me a head start in many aspects of the sport.
I’m a bit late posting here but here’s my observation.
I have studied Lee’s JKD for decades.
I study HEMA (Military fencing)
Much of what you experienced is expected.
Lee saw the strengths and weaknesses of applying pure Olympic Fencing structures, and slightly modified it to make it work for him in JKD
Specifically , how to defend against attacks on the lead leg, and exploit its advantages.
Unlike Olympic Fencing, HEMA (Rapier, Military Sabre, Cutlass, Backsword…) has a lateral and circular dimension.
As a fencer, this was an interesting watch. You definitely had the right idea but you just didn't do enough footwork or bladework. How you incorporated fencing techniques to your sparring was also interesting
Awesome that you actually tried fencing!
For me, the biggest advantage I feel fencing gives me in sparring is that I'm comfortable with either foot forward. I'm a southpaw normally, but if I end up in orthodox after a missed kick or something I can use my left and fencing footwork well enough to create some room for me to confuse my opponent momentarily and switch back, either by using the lunge or using parry-riposte style actions with my dominant lead arm.
That said, I'm still an absolute noob at sparring and I don't intend to actually fight in matches (I do krav just for fun and a bit of self-defense), so I don't have any illusions about my advantages fazing any trained martial artists, or leading to any tangible advantages outside of some unorthodox moves. But because I'm used to having my hand much lower when I have my left hand forward, I'll also probably eat far more punches that way, which is fine in light sparring (and is exactly what happened during sparring today), but not so much if it were a real fight.
This seems like a reversal from Kengan Omega's Nicholas...
Ayyyyyy! Kengan fan!
Ayoooooo
Sahate right?
Kengan boys in the house!
@@largocharles8729 fencer learning Karate via online vids creating Sahate
That's why Bruce took movement from fancing. Exposivenes, speed and control . Love it
I think the footwork is very similar to sport karate footwork.
The lady explained her terminlogy well. I learned a lot!
Love it. Finding and trying other spots is so much fun, and then stress testing with such a positive attitude. Keep up the awesome work.
Seth I'm loving the series you're putting out, how you discover bits and pieces from other MA to reinforce your own arsenal. Keep it up dude
this was actually super cool... I did fencing in highschool and a little of college, the footwork incorporation and the idea of the lunge/fleche as applied to karate/kickboxing is really interesting. Bravo.
As a fencer I have always wanted to see how certain techniques would translate into fighting, amazing video!
Came for martial arts skits, Stayed for fencing!
You just earned a new sub!
As a former fencer this was an interesting video to come up in my feed👍. I fenced Saber but I've done a tournament in epee
This looks like it was super fun and like a great way to work on footwork, timing, spacing, and accuracy!
If I remember correctly Manny Pacquiao and Oscar de la Hoya both favor the explosive style of boxing similar to fencing. So maybe you should've tried emulating them a little.
Thanks for another great excercise Seth, but I have so many comments, as a karateca that did a lot of fencing when I was young, do kickboxing now and find that footwork helps me a lot in martial arts. Firstly, you shouldn´t use the exact footwork, feel free to adapt their ideas to your regular footwork (and your lunges are still too shallow, really extend your body). Secondly, don´t limit yourself to one handedness. Most actual fencers from duelling days would have a dagger or a cloak, or a buckler even in their off hand, so put your dukes up, use both hands to attack. Thirdly, kick! You´re not fighting someone with a sword their not gonna cut your leg if you kick them. Good footwork control should put you in a good position to attack with hands or legs. Lastly, like any martial arts, for you to fully take advantage it takes a lot of practice. The reason why fencing footwork helps is not cause it´s superior, but it´s because good fencing schools will have half their training time dedicated to footwork exclusively. Lots of training = good results, like in anything.
Aw, Seth doing my first martial art. I feel like I’m in high school again. warms my heart in a weird way 😌
Glad that you try so many different martial arts. It makes you open your eyes on the differents strengths and weaknesses of other strategies and physical trainings focuses. You will become a better martial artist from those experiences. I trained foil and saber fencing for over 8 years and fencing is what brought me to get into mixed martial arts.
You should look into Hema fencing now to see the difference from Olympic fencing.
Btw you look like your having a blast man .
I love your stuff sensei.
Man i really love this channel, he's such a great guy
HEMA style fencing next!
Awesome Video Sensei Seth!
As a kid I always wanted to try fencing. Seeing your vid, I guess I'll finally try it now.
This was an interesting one Seth. We can definitely learn from other sports and discipline
There are a lot of things I thought you would do next.. Fencing was not one of them. I love it.
Fencing is about speed, distance and timing
As you get better you learn to read, think and feel
Good luck
Holy cats this actually happened!!! Great job Seth. You looked pretty good! Watch the forward lean when attacking - think you are a little heavy on the front foot. Total respect for giving this a go.
I grew up doing Karate (got to brown belt) but after trying fencing in college im hooked on it! thanks for exploring this art as well.
Really good man love this content
With the Olympics going down right now it'd be fun to see you try out some Olympic TKD sparring with the full electronic scoring set up and a referee. It's a lot of fun!
I'd say you nailed the fencing feeling into the sparring.
Dunno if that would actually work in a mt fight though...
But you succeed in your plan.
As a martial artist who started out fencing I can tell you this is true and it translates pretty great for my style
you putting on the fencing outfit brings back a lot of memories good and bad
this is so cool. as a karateka i would love to learn fencing tactics and footwork but unfortunately there are no schools\ clubs near me. definitely in the future though.
As well as 30 years of Karate, I did 4 years of fencing at university. It's good for reflexes, distancing, feinting and beating/disengaging a blade but is totally lacking in lateral movement.
I have used the Fleche ( x over step) with a lead hand backfist or trapping attack, in point sparring - but I would hesitate to do so in muay thai or contact sparring.
You tried epee, which would be good for a tall left handed like yourself, but you should try sabre ( there are three fencing weapons epee, foil and sabre) which has a different range and type of blocking and striking ( you can slash as well as hit with the point) - it feels more like a sword fight than the others. Cheers.
I've been into fencing for a while now, probably around 9 years now. You should've tried the secret move called the "side kick"
HUSH! The FIE has eyes and ears everywhere...
Love the variety in this series, but you know what we really want Sensei Seth. Karate Teacher Tries Professional Wrestling.
Awesome idea to experience something kinda out of the box 🙏🔥
the fletch is like a blitz. very cool.
The miss-step I think is supposed to be a half-step. The front foot is supposed to point up like you are taking a retreat but it's only a half retreat with the back foot moving. The front toes up makes it possible to go into a lunge immediately after the back foot lands. It also gives the illusion of a full step backwards.
Yes- it can be called a ‘check step’ as well.
Your front leg sidekick is also a thrusting weapon... The same principles will apply.
Hey Sensei Seth I love watching your videos, and I just wanted to say my friend introduced me to your channel cause me and you have the same first name, I help teach kids karate, and the karate I do shoshu karate and ill be testing for my low purple soon.
This was cool to watch.
I can't believe Seth didn't even mention the influence of fencing on Jeet Kun Do. The shuffle step, feint step (a lot of the footwork tbh), exploiting the flat footed opponent, intercept parrying, and the emphasis on the straight lead punch are all taken right out of fencing fundamentals.
Having studied both (9 years of karate split between Goju Ryu and Shotokan, 11 years of foil fencing), and studying karate first, I think there is a lot of mutual benefit from cross training the two, moreso in the mindset and approach than in trying to carry over techniques. It even starts with something that seems almost unique to martial sports, the salute/bow, both have an air of honor/discipline and a lot can be read from how a fencer performs the salute, which is often very abbreviated, but can also be extended or contain a flourish. Examining how a fencer wears the socks can also be an interesting insight either into the psychological aspect of the sport, or into their experience level (newer fencers tend to be more lax about keeping them up; for a time there was a specific type of socks only available in Europe, so Americans would wear them to show off that they fenced internationally). So much of the sport is psychological, and that can go for all combat sports, but because fencing often has extended distances and in foil and sabre because of the right of way conventions (in foil and sabre, if both fencers make contact, only at most one touch is scored, this is to disincentivize actions that can earn you a touch but if the blades were real would get you killed and not necessarily have much impact on the opponent) that aspect of the sport can be amplified to the point where there are fencers who are substantially more skilled than I am, who I can beat exclusively because I know a handful of situations that they find particularly frustrating to the point where repeating them can cause their overall fencing to breakdown in anger or stress. On the other hand, the actions of fencing themselves don't translate well, not just because they rely on landing a touch very precisely and tend to be over longer distances (though infighting is also important), but because fencing is a completely asymmetric sport, where the left and right sides of the body are doing such completely different things that some years ago either Nike or Adidas (Idr which) came out with a line of fencing shoes that were specific to the dominant hand of the fencer, with the shoes being made to wear away differently on the front foot versus the back foot. This didn't end up being a long term success, but it is exemplary of the complete strangeness of how asymmetrical fencing is. As for the three techniques you attempted to bring over, I'm not surprised the about the fleche, which is a fairly uncommon fencing action, because at distance it can be very telegraphed and long, but in a shorter context is more useful (in fencing it is often only one or two steps long). On the other hand, the much more common lunge is probably near useless in karate because unlike a blade, your arm is too short to take advantage of it properly, and generally rather than following a lunge with another attack, fencers immediately recover as fast as possible, which may not translate as well to karate. Half-steps (checks) are very important in fencing, and when I was doing both I found they could be useful in karate.
just sayin i watched houston jones alone then got to wonderboys channel then to yours and hard2hurt i consistently and watch out for all your guys' channels thanks for the entertaining content man
The most useful tactic I find in fencing/HEMA is the “cone of defense” where you move your sword/arm so that incoming attacks can’t strike you point-on, but never let your point out of their face.
I think something to keep note of when it comes to foot work is that you might be able to avoid or check various kicks when using that foot work. Also angles of attack is something important of note.
Thank you for posting this video as i'm curious if fencing can help me with my Philippine stick fighting.
I couldn't believe it when you posted this. Most of my siblings are fencers on the college level so this hits pretty close to home. I strayed from the sport and started taekwondo because i didn't like fencing but my footwork in sparring was really good to start with thanks to doing fencing.
When you were applying it to sparring, you know what was lacking? Suspenders! 😄
DAM I'm early in the comments, sensei Seth is the Anthony Bourdain of exploring Various martial arts, love this open minded content brotha, keep up the good work!
I could see this working in boxing quite decently. Those kicks are just the absolute bane of this.
That charge move reminds me of the way Lyoto Machida steps in with crosses as each hand becomes the back as he steps. Damn, I really wanna try fencing now lol
I would love to see this implemented in wrestling. I think I myself am gonna give it a shot next time I roll, but I would like to see how you do it
I love your content sir. 👌 I think I remember Coach Firas Zahabi saying fencers perform best with weapons-like knives, as compared to other martial arts disciplines. I love to see a video explore those realities. 🥋🙏 🗡️⚔️... 🪓🔗✂️✏️📌🪒🧹🥄🥢💣📯
The flesh/flash reminds me of karate rapid punches as you charge forward
I do fencing and MMA, they compliment each other well defensively (if you have good footwork and plenty of practice) but offense can get messy if you’re too geared up one way or another. Epee is great for evading leg kicks, as a common defense for attacks to the leg/ foot is just to do a simple body evasion (reuniting the feet and avoiding contact entirely)
Seth you should definitely do Bartitsu so you can fight like a British gentleman lol
I really appreciate the karate field trips. I honestly believe it's important for us to explore other styles and take what we can from them. Before I came to traditional karate, I did some BJJ and pankration, but my longest love has always been HEMA. Maybe see if your local SCA can hook you up for heavy fighter practice, you might like armored fighting.
But again: you did this pretty well for a beginner!👍🏻
Cool, so the gi goes the other way around😆
I say look into Kendo & Sumo. Both use a lot of balance techniques and heavy footwork.
awesome stuff, next would be great to see you do one similar with kali stick work
I'd love to see you try out kung fu and see how you can apply it. Especially stuff like crane and snake kung fu.
fenced for 3.5 years before starting martial arts, with some minor adjustments it helped me a lot with grappling
Grappling? Interesting. I find that it helps more with striking, especially in and out styles.
@@SwordTune it's entirely possible, I haven't done any striking yet, told myself I will once I hit my judo and bjj goals
🤔 🥊 😏Seth you have something I've done fencing before but never thought to mix the two . Gotta try Nice Vid !
I used to do Gumdo and Fencing before I decided to dedicate my time to Hapkido. I love Hapkido but I also miss swords. Swords are fun.
Can’t cheat at fencing... all fencers smile, but not too much ;)
Check out the "flunge". Its a combination between a fleche and a lunge. Its a very long range attack from fencing, kinda like a fencing superman punch.
I've been practicing Karate and Fencing for many years, so this is my video!
You know sensei Seth this is a good start to that JKD class your about to take after them 100k views as fencing is one of the core components used in the first part of learning to use that southpaw stance 😁
Sensei Seth is already a master at sword fighting lol 🤣 but you should try bare knuckle boxing