A huge thanks to World of Guns for sponsoring this video. We’re experimenting with a new lighting set up which means at times the HK416 is quite dark. We’ve learned from this video and have made changes for the next one. We apologise for the inconvenience but hope it doesn’t detract too much from the video. Thanks for bearing with us while What is this Weapon grows and improves.
I've never seen Jonathan Ferguson, the Keeper of the Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armouries Museum in the UK, as elated as he was when talking about the mechanics of the chamber of AR-15 platform. Great video!
Most operating systems seem like something you could come up with yourself if someone else didn't beat you to it. The Armalite system really comes across as one designed *by engineers.*
@@smorrow I really do appreciate the cleverness behind the AR15's gas system. Unfortunately though, most people that own them probably don't even know how it works, let alone appreciate it.
It's also relevant to his subject, not like people on history channels shilling for knives or owning art or worst of all, Scottish land. I like to think the Royal Armouries would safeguard their reputation and not get involved with sketchy dealings.
I remember playing with this when I was a teen in 2014, now working professionally as a 3D artist it's becoming quite a good quick and dirty reference tool to see internals and how weapons function as someone without easy access to things other than bolt actions and shotguns 😂
I know my colleagues wouldn't, but if they tried for some reason to do Established Titles or frankly anything not related to our subject, I simply wouldn't agree to take part. @@boomslangCA
@@whitewittock Plenty of people have explained that over the years, it's not like it is a 70 year old secret :) Reson it has become such a thing in recent years though is because of "Well actuallly" meme people :)
I really liked the brief look of panic as he rolled through possible phrasings in his head, trying to figure out something that will pass muster with both the _museum bosses_ and also the _new sponsor._
Once read an interview with one of the developers of this rifle, one quote I remembered: "I have no idea how long a HK416 bolt and/or extractor lasts. I have never seen one break." Not sure how that holds up but it was impressive to hear.
I was issued the military version of the 416 when I was in the Marines. One day we went to the range and the 9 or so that we had in my platoon were shot by everyone for shits and gigs. Each 416 went through roughly 8,000 rounds in automatic fire and never experienced a single malfunction. It is the best AR platform I have ever used and possibly one of the best ever manufactured.
@@23GreyFox it was officially adopted by the infantry a few years back. There are a few guys with M4A1s still floating around but by and large the corps has issued the M27 to all riflemen
Great video. I’m a former uk Police firearms officer. We traded our G36 carbines for HK416 carbines. They were a great improvement in all ways. As with most police weapons, they were carried a lot and shot VERY little, therefore the easy of cleaning this reliable weapon was greatly appreciated . It is a Rolls Royce of carbines.
Here in Canada we have ARs. Knights Armament Company is like.....amazing. Super expensive. Great decision on the UK Rangers for going with 13.7 inch KACs. Super good move. Basically 0.5 MOA with MK262. Reliable. Oversized and rounded off lugs. Butter. One of the few DI guns you can run pretty dry due to the metallurgy.
I was issued one of these in the slightly modified form of the M27 IAR. It's shocking how much superior one of these feels compared to an m16/m4. I ran one for 11 days straight of ranges using both live rounds & blanks. I was shocked at how every time i disassembled it for cleaning the chamber/receiver was virtually spotless. It's almost impossible to foul one of these to the point of malfunction. To me this is the AR system perfected.
I think HK makes civilian variants in 22 LR. I hope they make them in 5.56 because they look nice and high quality. But I really want an AK-74 but I feel like I cant trust American brands, and Kalashnikov USA is taking forever to release their version of the 74
@@Mistah_Boombastic_BiggieCheeseHK MR223 is what you're looking for. The MR223 (Match Rifle Caliber .223) is the civilian version of the 416 in 5.56. The civilian version of the 417 is called MR308.
@@Mistah_Boombastic_BiggieCheese Someone already gave you the name of the civilian version of the 416, but the .22LR version is produced by Umarex under license from HK and is essentially an airsoft gun that's been re-designed to fire actual bullets.
The fascinating bit to me is, Eugene Stoner designed the early version of this short stroke piston system which as used in the AR-18. So, when militaries started convincing themselves the modified DI system in the AR-15 that Stoner also designed was too dirty, they ended up buying a Stoner design modified with another Stoner design. Really, Eugene Stoner is the Thanos of assault rifle design, he is inevitable.
The problem being the procurement process for the US military. Had the US military bought and "owned" all designs they "buy" and then the US military can select anyone they want to build, then the AR-10 would have replaced the M1 in the 1950s, and not gone through the M14 phase, where the inferior object won the contract because the company backing it was larger. The AR-10 was superior, but it wasn't until Colt pitched it did it "win" and become the M16. Had the process allowed the military to "buy" the design from AR and license Colt to produce them, we would have gone straight to the M16/M4 and never had the M14s, which have an incredibly limited use as a sniper rifle, and are still used for ceremonial purposes, as the last wood-stocked weapons selected.
A lot of sponsors would strike me as being a bit gauche for a museum video channel, but this partnership is spot on. Various channels explain the workings of firearms, but it's hard to imagine anyone explaining the mechanical nuances of a gun quite as well as World of Guns can animate the action. I hope they continue working not only with this series, but other channels well.
Yes, I particularly appreciate that a Brit is a firearms junkie. I'm entirely on board with everyone enjoying how much fun and utility there is in gun ownership. He's probably one of the few people in Europe who gets to handle and fire all sorts of really nice guns...and the fun ones to boot. Lucky bugger.. I at least live near a place where I can pay a small fortune to fire guns with the happy switch but it's a rare treat to do so and not an every weekend sort of affair. I must say that the mp5 is one of the funnest guns to shoot in auto mode. And FAST. Haha Ya should've seen me trying to control an ak. If ya wanna feel like a friggin noob go shoot one of those in "let 'er rip" mode.
@@alexander-lc4dr The worst thing is being from here and seeing other people from here all like "actually we can own guns by the way, just like anyone else" - commonly seen in e.g. UK vs. US Quora topics. My usual response to these people is that seemingly every other EnglishShooting weekly livestream has something on either getting or keeping a licence being unreasonably difficult.
@@smorrow the fact that you can't carry a pepper spray for self-defense says a lot about the country. Like, I have realized long ago that I was bamboozled by Western media into believing that there's any resemblance of freedom in Europe and that Russia is a totalitarian state, but it still keeps surprising me how you can own an AR-15 with 100 round drums here (after five years of shotgun ownership, but it's still easier than in the UK, lol), but not in most of Europe. Inside the existing Western narrative about freedom and stuff, it's just funny to think about.
This has been the best explanation of the HK416 firing system I've seen so far. Using the WOG animation and actually showing the parts was perfect. Thank you!
I used to have the game but I kinda got bored with it because the cyclic rates of some guns were inaccurate. However, that was 4 years ago and I am hoping the game improved then
It’s also the standard issue rifle for the Marine Corps Infantry, now, dubbed the m27 Infantry automatic rifle. Used to just be the automatic rifleman had one, but then they decided might as well just give it to everyone. We’re rocking suppressors and variable zoom optics on them too, it’s a badass setup
From what I read when they were developing the IAR was that it was always intended to be the universal weapon for everyone. It's just that the AR got it first until there were enough to go around for the entire squad.
@@cm-pr2ys personally don’t see the m-lok happening, if for no other reason than the fact that the DOD is married to picattiny. (Which does have its merits) although m-lok would go a long way to reducing how front-heavy the gun is. We ARE allowed to change the stock though, I think there are a couple DOD-approved stocks you can use, however the buffer tube is proprietary so you can’t just use any m-4 spec buttstock.
Love my 416N. Coming from the HK G3, this thing is just as easy to operate but is definately less of a hassle to clean. The chamber is surprisingly clean, even after using it out in the tundra or swamp for 10 days ++, firing everything from ten to a hundred rounds per day. It's lower caliber though, but it weighs less, so makes one able to potentially carry 3x more ammo.
I own a HK416 (MR556Clone) and it is hands down the best Rifle I have ever shot in 556! Highly recommend, my Combat Squadron also issued the Compact 416c during Deployments and omg I lovedddd range time on that baby lol. HK = Best
I live in Germany and of course I only have the MR223 (HK416) semi-automatically here. Precision and reliability are incredible, I have made 12,000 rounds in 5 years and never made a mistake, every cartridge fired and ejected cleanly...! I've never been able to do that with any other weapon! All parts are still original and there is no sign of wear, except for the charging handle from Geisele and the trigger which I converted from the German company UHL!
@@hansrichter5607 mine has never malfunctioned either, probably on 50k shot count too. The Germans make the best firearms in the World, anyone who says different are just salty about the 40s lol. Tbh I will only trust the Life of my family with a HK, bc I know it's not going to fail me as long as maintain them. I just with I could get the 416c they are soooooo sick fully automatic. Idk why anyone would want to carry a different 556 chambered rifle lol
As a former US service member I would have loved to have had a short stroke piston driven M4. It was miserable coming in from field training/exercises where there was little sleep, many hundreds of blanks/live rounds fired, and then having to deal with the carbon-crusted mess that was the inside of my service rifle before getting to go home. The piston would have saved a lot of time on cleaning, as well as increasing reliability.
I've never used an M4, but have heard stories. The 416 will still get gunky, but in fairly easily cleaned areas, and it is forgiving when there just isn't the time or option to get the cleaning kit out. It keeps going.
As a unit armorer I hated the direct porting of the M-16 family. When I was in Basic we had the last cycle of M16A1s, and I had them jam on me when using blanks because it took almost no fouling for the cases to need more energy than the blank could generate; making it a "bolt action" (because I had to pull the charging handle every round). Apart from just how carbon crusted they could get (in places which were very hard to get at) there is another problem (thankfully rare; but not zero) with people who are careless when cleaning inside the hanguards; where the gas return tube gets dented, which means sending the weapon back to depot... once you've managed to diagnose why it's malfunctioning. I've also see (once) the mouth of the gas return tube pinched; because something (probably a small rock) got into the chamber and trapped between the bolt carrier and the mouth of the tube. When I've worked with short piston versions of the action none of those problems ever occurred.
There are trade offs to everything. A modern DI AR-15 is not unreliable and in many tests outperforms the reliability of the AK (piston). Our forces are not sitting around with no way to clean or lube their weapons during a deployment. Personally, the lightweight and accuracy of DI is worth it for me over the added complexity (more price, then consider at bulk) and recoil impulse. I’ve never shot a smoother rifle than a DI 556
The reality is that the dual rail system of the AR-18 allows the BCG to move backwards without tilting, which is why most short-stroke piston rifles are based on the AR-18. The latest M7 is again a variation of the AR-18, and not a hybrid AR-10 with short-stroke gas piston.
Having a piston strike face non coaxial to the centroid of the carrier will always induce a moment on the carrier. This is also true of the AR-18 type carrier. It just doesn't matter as much with the AR-18, unlike the rear of the AR carrier which will impact the lip of the receiver extension if tilted too much.
The XM7's bcg actually doesn't use the AR-18 style dual rails even though it's 5.56 sister the MCX Spear-LT does. It instead has one long recoil spring nestled into the somewhat long operating rod. Fortunately, still means no buffer tube is needed. Forgotten Weapon's (of course) has a good teardown of the rifle if you want to see it for yourself.
@@Rosenritter_ indeed, you are correct. But the point is that there is a rail system aligned with recoil vector, thus not creating a rotational force that would induce tilting. The HK416 is like a Porsche 911 in the sense that having the engine in the back is not a great solution, but the Germans have engineered out the issues to actually make it a very good sports car.
The ar15 is the only aluminum frame rifle that I know of and it makes sense what the knight armament guy said that only the internal piston action reduces tilt and wear on the inside of it. So why would anyone go to the expense of this complex aluminum frame and then put an external piston on it, just for the look?
@@whitewittock Aluminum is a common receiver material for rifles. The SCAR and CZ Bren 2 both use aluminum extruded receivers with built-in carrier rails. Also, the HK416's carrier has extra material on the bottom to limit carrier tilt.
The first time the stoner system was actually explained to me I was really amazed and appreciated the idea. How actually everything moving is in line. The potential issues are there too - the piston being necessarily more enclosed compared to either of the gas piston systems. But still made much more sense than my original idea that the gas from the gas tube "blowing" on the bolt gas extension (which I didn't know is actually hollow)
As someone less interested in historical firearms, but recognizes this being a firearm museum, its cool to see modern weapons from more recent history.
If you are dumping ludicrous amounts of rounds through it, the gas accumulation starts causing problems and is dumping even MORE heat into the action. The heat dumping out the short stroke piston in the front of the 416 and the fact it never got back into the action made for a MUCH cooler weapon that could shoot for an longer time. The barrel still got hot, but at least the gas took a lot of heat with it to not dump into the action. Also if you put a suppressor on it, the back gassing was not nearly as bad either.
The main issue is that the stoner impingement has had a terrible record in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and especially Iraq. 35% of soldiers who used the M16 during the period it was in Iraq experienced a malfunction that was hard to clear, or disabled the weapon for the whole firefight. The talc-like Iraqi dust was one cause.
The Vietnam procurement was a shot show but you get dust in the action of any weapon and it will struggle, the AR is extremely good at keeping it out and forcing it out.
Fun story about that, the HK416 is so fun to shoot for a long time that a few Norwegian soldiers got sick from the noxious fumes from the new "environmental" ammo when taking it to the range. It was an indoor range, and they had to rethink procedures a bit since the ventilation had always been sufficient previously.
This is a worthy sponsor for the channel indeed. 3:37 In my humble opinion, you're correct in calling this 'grafting on', but in their defence, there certainly were deficiencies in the AR15 system the HK designers were trying to address this way. 7:12 I'm surprised that suppressors weren't mentioned here as a reason to look more favourably upon piston-operated designs, and HK416 in particular. Sure, one can fit a gas adjustment valve on a 'DI' gun, but from what little I've seen of them, especially going back to the time when the purchasing decisions you mention were made, these weren't the easiest things to use. 10:49 Roasting aside, I would love to see you picking apart the changes HK made to the M4. 😉 15:31 I gather the problem isn't just in the lack of efficiency, but in the wear a steel bolt carrier introduces upon an aluminium receiver.
Yep, suppressor use is a good reason to go 'external piston'. As it wasn't the impetus, I consciously left that out for time. 20mins is about the limit - they sometimes let me go longer :D As for receiver wear, yes, I should have specified that it's not REALLY functioning that's the issue - the gun can take it for as long as it lasts - it's parts wear and reduced service life that become the problem. Hazards of filming everything off the cuff I'm afraid.
@@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries Thanks for clarification, much appreciated! Would I be correct in surmising that it was time constraints that prohibited you from discussing the merits of the G36 style of piston head (or, one might say, gas plunger) further? It's a great pity that there's little opportunity for you to go about with C&Rcenal style of long content (to say nothing of proper documentaries, like those with Dr. Tobias Capwell) at least once in a blue moon. I believe it would be greatly appreciated, if only judging by how well the live demonstration was met, and so were livestreams with Ian.
Yeah the backpressure that suppressors cause on, especially on SOCOM's bread and butter: DI short barreled rifles, really is a bitch for parts durability, recoil, but imo most importantly the fact that the shooter would get a lot of irritating hot gas in the face. The latter sucks even more if you're shooting left-handed. Short Stroke piston guns of course just eject the gas at the gas block, away from the shooter's face so that problem is solved.
@@Rosenritter_ Suppressor-caused backblast from the bolt carrier can also increase visibility, as far as I get it, which is obviously highly undesirable.
I would LOVE to hear your take on the WWSD (What would Stoner do) AR-15 that Ian from Forgotten weapons helped birth, it's basically a "what if Eugene Stoner made the AR-15 in 2020"
Back when I was in the armed forces, I was issued the Canadian C7, which is pretty much a copy of the American M4 Colt. Seeing you pull the gun apart with the different pieces like that brought back memories. It also made me remember just how many pieces that bolt carrier disassembles into. God I hated cleaning that thing. XD
@@stenerlineI loved my Norwegian variation of the G3 (designated AG3) all untill it came to cleaning it as the chamber could be hard to reach with the fingers (luckily mine are long). It kicked like a Mare though, but I loved it every moment I used it, so Presise.
The weirdest part about this is hearing how excited Mr. Ferguson gets about AR-15 variant. We normally only see this when he is showing us weapons that made it to the Armory because it was part of some testing procedure, and is there for unique to the Armory's collection.
@@hairydogstail the reliability and build quality is the same. even recoil is similar. people like it bcuz of aggressive design which doesnt look like AR
The 416 is over complicated, over priced, over gassed and will shoot itself apart..Why people like something is another topic all together lol..@@ImotekhtheStormlord-tx2it
Isn't the top rails hight over bore a bit higher on the 416 compared to standard ar15? And the selector can be put on safe with the hammer down unlike typical ar15 rifles?
The issues with the M16/M4 shaking itself apart really only show up in the very short-barreled weapons. When the barrel is shorter, the dwell time gets shorter and various adjustments have to be made to the gas system. Shortening the barrel makes recoil more violent and accelerates wear on the components. Yes, it's more complicated but that's the gist of it.
Yup. That is why external piston really only has significant advantages in short barrel guns that will be shot mostly suppressed. In a full size rifle and gas system "DI" is actually a better system as it's lighter and has less recoil impulse.
@@jaypee389Also the reason why the US military has not replaced with M16/M4 with newer rifles. When the improvements are only marginal/incremental, its not worth it to spend the money to replace the entire fleet of existing weapons AND their supporting logistical structure.
@armynurseboy 100% With the simple addition of the M855A1..it transforms the unit. Huge energy dump out to I Believe 300m from a M4A1. Chews up armor good too.
Jonathan, Jonathan , Jonathan, why the hell does this man make me so happy? his smile . everything, he seems like a nice lad to be around, came here from h3vr cursed guns, i hope you see this comment, have a good day
5:57 I'm no gun expert, but I've actually used the M16 as an infantryman, and I can absolutely guarantee you that it's a bloody problem the gases are pumped right back into the bolt carrier. Not only is it harder to clean, good luck if you accidentally touch the metal parts near the bolt carrier after extended firing. We finally changed out to a short stroke piston rifle and the difference was night and day
Marine trucker here, Mild gun nerd, and previously user of an m16a4. Cleaning that bolt was completely vital to the gun continuing to fire and as soon as the fouling would hit a certain point the gun would become a blot action.
I call that recess on the side the cam path pocket. Whenever you see it on a rifle, it generally means it has a stoner bolt or even a stoner BCG. One interesting case of this is looking at the side of a Pindad SS1 vs an SS2. The SS1 is an FNC, but the SS2 is essentially a Daewoo K2 inside as an FNC upper receiver assembly.
I’m proud to announce that I am among the top 10 for fastest times on the game modes for the HK416 on world of guns. It’s seriously an amazing game and you didn’t even have to tell me to get it because I already had it.
I've been waiting for Jonathan or Ian to visit the topic of the HK416 for a while. Happy to see this 😊 I remember my company being guinea pigs getting some of the first 416s in Norway back in 2008. The boys who got them were so happy about how little effort it was to clean them compared to the G3s we were issued before. I wish Jonathan would have delved into the topic of cleaning this versus cleaning the M4, cause I thought the 416s system would make less of a mess.
One thing that many U.S. SOF members have mentioned regarding the 416 is that they chew themselves apart. Whether it's due to the hybridization of the AR15 and the short stroke piston, or the 416 just being overgassed, they just don't last over heavy firing schedules. Many people who were issued them aren't a fan. On the other hand, what I've heard that is an advantage of the 416 for some is that in the environment of the Middle East, the 416 was capable of handling several shots completely unlubricated, preventing the dust from helicopters from gumming up the lubricant causing immediate malfunctions. At which point once you know things have gone hot you can just put a couple drops of lube into the gun to keep it running.
Yes, I've read/heard the same. You get user-level reliability but the price is paid by the armourers and arguably taxpayers. I didn't want to lay into the poor designers TOO hard - I'm already flying the DI flag pretty vigorously :D
Not necessarily - but as the move away from the 416 shows, there are now 'DI' guns that do the job just fine and avoid the need for extra maintenance and procurement @@eps200
@@eps200 The problem is several fold. First off, that only applies in specific environments and conditions. Outside of that, testing and experience proves that the DI AR15 system is more reliable both from at the end user and armorer level. In addition to that, even the highest level of SOF aren't going to be pulling out a brand new gun every time they go on a mission. Because of how the 416 chews itself apart, parts breakages and malfunctions are going to be more common in field use than with a system that has longer longevity, and the 416 is much less consistent about parts breakages than the AR15. This is combined with the fact that apparently it's a dice roll on how well your 416 will perform. Matt Pranka said in his interview with Slade Cutrer that his black 416 functioned fine, but he had nothing but issues with his golden 416. It's true that in practice, if it really worked out exactly as you stated, that would be a worthwhile tradeoff. But usually designs that last longer do so because the design as a whole is more reliable, operates at lower pressures and under lesser stresses, and that translates to greater reliability in most standard operating conditions, not just in the long term.
If what's been said about the short stroke system causing the AR-15 style bolt to want to tilt when firing and increasing friction, that'd make a lot of sense. We saw issues with the newer M855A2(I think?) chewing up the aluminum feed ramps because they had a harder tip, I imagine the whole bolt wanting to cam up and grinding itself down with every shot from constant bursts to full-auto suppressing fire would only take a matter of time before your getting jams from metal shavings building up in your action. ESPECIALLY if they're running them dry off the bird, then just putting in a few drops of lube once the dust settles down. IIRC AR's like to run WET, that whole bolt and carrier need to be lubed, not just a few drops here and there. Ironically thats where the Semi-DI system is better, just close the dust cover when not shooting and when you are, the gas vents out the side of the bolt and blows any dirt and dust away from it anyways. You just gotta remember it's a closed system and to keep it closed, when you leave it open is when your lube becomes gritty paste.
15:50 bolt tilt = more friction, that's why the AR-18 type carrier was designed instead. Or alternatively, the Daewoo long stroker reduces this described canting or tilting action. But for some reason, the conventional long carrier / buffer tube arrangement still persists.
I’d say it’s more of a selection of trade offs than a direct upgrade(s) Piston system adds weight over impingement, but runs cleaner. The 416 has more moving parts, and is going to be more of a hindrance to repair in the field, if it’s reparable at all. Granted, swapping a crushed or ruptured gas tube in an AR isn’t gonna be super easy either. The gas system of the AR also makes it adaptable to barrel takedown systems, which, coupled with a folding adapter to the buffer tube, can allow you to essentially divide your overall length by 3 (depending on your buffer tube and barrel length) so you can have a more compact gun in storage than just using the takedown pins, and deploy it just as rapidly, if not more so.
Royal Armouries should always collab with World of Guns, super informative to actually see how it works while Jon explaining while an animation from the World of Gun is played
Great video and great sponsorship! Back when it was on sale i bought the world of guns lifetime access. I must note that Jonathan seems to be very jubilant and particularly enthusiastinc when talking about the AR15. I think a video on it is in order ;)
That's the finest take on the AR-15 yet, in my humble opinion. I argue that the piston system is about the only thing the AR-10/15 needed. And the 417 is a masterfully made weapon as well. Great video as always.
Never got to play with a 416 but I served in the US Army for 9 years. Without regular cleaning the M16 family will get carbon buildup on the firing pin which can cause light primer strikes and failures to fire over time. But anything with an 11 inch barrel needs to be over gassed to function properly so I can understand why SF would make the switch for the additional reliability.
Thanks for the info. I now know why Capt. Nate Self's M4 failed to fire (went click instead of a bang) when he saw a taliban in the Battle of Takur Ghar Afghanistan. He admitted he never cleaned his weapon prior to that battle after few live fire drills.
I normally get my "deep firearm knowledge" from Ian McCollum of Forgotten Weapons fame but i must admit, i find your presentations quite satisfying, you've earned a subscriber.
As a Marine issued with an M27, I really like it. The gas system keeps the chamber clean, which can be the biggest issue with my old M4. It is slightly heavier, but overall, I prefer it to the M4
So great to finally see an expert explain that the AR10/15 isn’t direct impingement and that the internal pistol / stoner system is still the best system out there.
I for one agree with Johnathan. I appreciate the original Stoner design and how brilliant it is. The perceived “unreliability” of the M4 and the Stoner gas system comes from; as far as I can tell, mostly HK’s aggressive marketing campaign around this gun. It’s not perfect and it has it’s strengths and weaknesses just like everything else but I for one love the standard gas system and it’s simplicity while maintaining good reliability and performance under most conditions. There are some things that the piston system does better, and I’m glad the 416 exists to fill the certain gaps that exist in the standard design allowing one to choose either or, but I just cannot get past how genius the Stoner internal piston system is. The way it makes some parts pull double duty and reduces weight and moving parts, especially out over the barrel of the gun is just simply a master stroke from the mind of someone who clearly knew what they were doing. I also give full credit to HK for very cleverly mating their excellent interpretation of a short stroke piston system with an AR platform to create this gun.
Most of it comes from the 60s when the guns stoped working in combat due to soldiers getting the wrong amunition, among other things, look up the history behind that, it is realy super interesting and says allot about how old farts didn't care bout the lives of young soldiers as much as they did about their own ego. The 416 is more reliable in many situations though, however that is not allways due to the piston, like how the rear of the buffertube has "venting" holse in it preventing the system from geting water locked when firing directly after comming out of water. This is why Haenel in the end lost to HK to the german army since HK has a patent on those holes and apparently Haenel didn't know that.
It comes from the first iterations being fielded in Vietnam. However, even then, the unreliability issues were 100% self-inflicted. The Ordnance Dept switched the powder formulation without telling anyone. The new powder formulation (using surplus ball powder) burned dirtier and caused faster pressure spikes that threw off the wholen timing of the rifle. That alone caused 40% of the unreliability issues. The other 40% was the refusal to chrome line the chambers. That led to corrosion and casings sticking. Marry the two together, and you have a recipe for disaster. And I'm pretty sure the Ordies did it on purpose to sabotage the fielding. The last 20% were issuing flimsy magazines and NOT training poroper maintenance nor issuing cleaning kits. The end result was that the M16 left a bad first impression that many still hold against it today. BTW, the short-stroke piston H&K used was not invented by them. It's essentially a modified Stoner AR-18 gas system...
I agree. The direct impingement system is generally fine, but it's not as good in (1) short barrel configuration, (2) while suppressed, and (3) in sustained high rate of fire.
Something to keep in mind is production in a military context. For example the stoner system isn’t suited for high rates of fire. Which is why the USMC wanted to replace their m4’s with the M27 and the m249 SAW with the M27 IAR since both guns are very similar and can be mass produced with just a simple change of barrels and magazines. Similar to the AK and RPK system. Something that I think would have been a better idea for the entire military instead of switching to the M7 spear
This might be the first- and last- YT video where I wanted more and longer bits from the sponsor, to better understand and appreciate the core content. That's... not a thing. But here, it is the thing. And I LOVE the thing. More WoGs clips, please.
Thanks very much, Jonathan and team. Those World of Guns videos look great. I don't suppose they include the Robinson SR 11 though ;) So, without the AR-18, it might have taken a lot longer before anyone else produced a short stroke gas piston variant of the AR military rifle design. I wonder if Stoner only used the SVT style gas system on the AR-18 because the AR-15 design had been sold to Colt and thus he could only use the "2nd best gas system in the world" ? I also wonder if Stoner was aware of Fosbery's pump action shotgun design or whether he independently invented the multi-lug AR bolt head?
They don't have the SR11, but they do have some wacky stuff like the EM2 and the Collier! Yes, as far as I know Stoner went 'external' piston precisely for that reason. As for Fosbery, Stoner got his bolt from the Johnson. Did Johnson ever see the Fosbery? Tempting to think so, it's just so similar.
@@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries Sometimes good inventions get independently recreated. For example, my analogue electrical system for measuring muzzle velocity turned out to have been previously published in the Engineering journal of 1876 by Robert Sabine.
Hi Jonathan! Trying to find out if the gas in the m4 traveling down the tube actually goes into the breach area? The AK platform as you know has the rod that is pushed by gas!
@@DD-qw4fz because people r stupid, the 416 is a worse gun then the ar15 and the only plus side is it better suppressed then an ar15 do to gas blowback, the 416 is less reliable and has more parts
From what I heard years ago, the naming of HK 416 came about when HK wanted called it the HK M4. Colt sued them for the same name and they settled out of court and HK just named it 416, most likely taking the 4 and 16 suffixed and putting them together. I may be wrong with this info.
this is a video I was looking for; I wanted an indepth explanation on *why* the HK416 is superior vs the AR-15. I knew it was but wasn't exactly sure on how to explain it to other's. as always, Johnathan and his team at the Royal Armouries killing it!
I remember watching a 2006-7 era (I think) field test comparison between a then-current M4 model (which one in particular escapes me; it's been a minute) and the new 416. Guy doing the testing was German Infantry. The two designs competed on pretty even terms (even the being slathered with mud and rubbed with dirt test, so whoever tells you that ARs "don't like being dirty" needs to update their info from the Vietnam War) UNTIL they got to the water test: submerging man AND weapon in a simulated amphibious assault. Pulling the 416 out of the water, you could IMMEDIATELY see the thought and care HK put into how the gun drains fluids go to work, and the guy was firing almost as soon as the gun surfaced above the water, and the high speed also showed the gun expelling water with the first two shots, so some big neuron energy was clearly invested in that design. The M4 on the other hand... did NOT fare so well. The tester tried to do with the M4 what he'd just done with the 416, and the gun just... popped like a balloon. The high speed showed that the gun had a CATASTROPHIC failure, with the right side of the upper breaching and exploding, sending tiny shrapnel towards the cameraman (who was safely ensconced behind a safety wall, thank god). Sans an M4 to test against, the 416 kept going, completing every additional test they threw at it, including managing to fire at a target above water from UNDER water (I doubt there's a huge use case for that, I think the guy just wanted to show that it COULD. You know, if you REALLY WANTED.). That was the moment I became a believer in 416 Supremacy. What Stoner designed was a work of pure genius, as he so often managed, but HK managed to take a good design and make it even better, and with old tech to boot. You really CAN teach an old dog new tricks after all.
Can you elaborate further on the point you made about the DI bolt having less friction ? The gas in the DI system and the piston in the 416 push the bolt at the same height above the bolts center of mass
well actually that's kinda not true, you see how it actually happens is that the hot gasses coming from the gas tube actually enter the bolt carrier and make their way in to the expantion chamber and since the gas rings are blocking the way and the bolt which the gas rings are attached to can't move forward the expanding gasses end up pushing the bolt carrier backwards while in short stroke gas piston ar systems the piston straight up smacks the gas key
Great video! As Jonathan quite rightly points out, Stoner's DI system was revolutionary and not inferior; it was just not ideal for SF specific applications. It's hugely ironic that the HK416's short stroke gas piston is seen as an "upgrade" when it really is a step backwards technologically speaking. The HK416 is a better weapon - for the specific role it was designed for. It is a mistake to think that the HK416 makes for a better standard infantry weapon than the AR15. When it comes to taking aimed shots in semi-auto out of a full length barrel, I don't believe there are any platforms more robust, reliable and controllable than the AR15. Most folks who think the AR gas system is dirty simply do not understand how it really works.
There is a reason no other AR design went DI, its just an american thing just like 50 cal or 1911, anyone knows DI is problematic SF use or not , always was always will be..otherwise SIG Spear would be DI as well...
Many German designs and redesigns have exactly that in mind. They're good at the exact thing they're designed to do, but not as good as an universal weapon. Over-engineering has its downsides... and that's coming directly from Germany lol
@@DD-qw4fz lol, the AR-15 isn't even a true DI, that's just used to shit on it by people that have no idea what they're talking about, a real DI would be something like the FN49. The AR-15 uses its bolt and carrier as the piston, and is actually cleaner than most guns because it's gas vents out the side of the bolt through the ejection port clearing away carbon, dirt, mud, etc. The only time it's worse is when people fuck with it, like using short barrels with suppressors without redesigning the gas tube. That's when you get a shit load of extra heat and gas, plus tons of unburnt carbon building up in the action screwing the gun up. As for the 1911, if it was so bad how come literally damn near EVERY modern handgun copied it's action and uses a Browning style tilting barrel?
@@pyro1047 Actually, most modern pistols use Webley self-loader type of locking (not a Browning design at all) and FN GP35-derived style of tilting barrel, in which J. M. himself wasn't putting all that much faith and which was in actuality mostly designed by D. Saive, despite all the marketing. M1911 was influential, yes, but it was a century ago, and times have changed.
The real beauty and genius of the AR platforms gas impingement piston system is how "gently" it opens the bolt, gas pressure is pushing the bolt forward into the case as the carrier moves backwards, since the bolt is pushed forward it takes pressure off the locking lugs and the bolt face spins smoothly and easily on the case head. The cam pin and cam track just guide the system. The main problem with typical (non HK) gas piston conversions of the AR is the fact that the bolt carrier is slammed backwards with all the rearward pressure still on the locking lugs, the cam pin and cam track takes a massive impact violently torquing the bolt and sheared locking lugs are a common problem. HK fixed that by redesigning the cam track and bolt lugs to work specifically with the short stroke system, unlike conversions that typically use standard bolts and standard carriers with a modified gas key. I'm glad to know Jonathan is a admirer of the original AR gas system and appreciates its genius as much as I do.
Should've mentioned the anti-tilt pads on the bolt carrier of the 416. That makes it go straight back :) Edit: HK Defence did not design the 416. It was designed by the engineers at HK Gmbh.
Even though I prefer my Knight's SR15, the 416 will always have a special place in my heart. I shot a real full auto 10.4 inch 416 a few months ago and while it kicked like a mule compared to a nice DI rifle, I still couldn't help but feel like a SOCOM operator when I handled it lol. If I had infinite money to blow I'd definitely buy one of those $4000 police trade in 416 uppers.
What's the HK like if it's *not* overgassed? Even DI issue guns (like the URGI) tend to be overgassed and kick more than a "properly" gassed civilian AR, so it'd be interesting to see what the A5 and subsequent iterations of the 416 are like. The adjustable gas key is a welcome addition, I'm not sure why armies are so reluctant to trust their troops with adjustable gas ports, there's no need for shooter and gun to suffer increased recoil and parts wear because the rifle _might_ be used in extreme cold or when dirty. A soldier can always crank the port open if there's any doubt in their mind about reliability in the field. Just make it simple for them to do so. If you teach your troops well and trust them, they'll perform better 👍🏻
Been issued a Norwegian 416 on and off since 2011. Always liked it. Would love a 10,4 inch version, but there is nothing wrong with the 16,5 inch barrel neither.
@@Ruben1994OLI actually used a Norwegian 416 while contracting in Afghanistan. It was a 14.5. Got to use a 10 inch 416 later. Out of all the guns that we had, the few left behind Norwegian guns were in best shape. So bravo for actually taking care of your stuff.
Whoa. On the M16 bolt carrier I always thought the gas just pushed the carrier group back. Does it also direct the pressurized gas inside the carrier group putting forward pressure on the rotating bolt proper? If so I'm curious how much pressure (especially compared to where the gas meets the top of the carrier group) and is it even necessary? I can see how it might improve reliability.
When one tries to use an AR-pattern rifle as a straight-up machine gun, the external piston with its better heat management is indeed the more durable system. For semi or occasional full-auto use (as the M16 was intended to be used) the internal piston (DI) gives nothing up in reliability or durability.
Unlike some good civ-friendly company that sells civ version of their contract mil rifle as close and faithful as possible. MR556 isn't just a semi-version of the HK416. It is severely cucked by HK for us civs, just like their other rifles. Imagine you have to pay top money for a trash barrel and civ-only proprietary parts.
@@activatewindows Why would that upset me? It's your money, do whatever that makes you happy. Just don't let sentimental values blind your judgment on objective performance. I hope you never run it enough to exceed what HK thinks a civ rifle should endure. Keep it cool.
@@JohnZ556 sounded pretty upset saying stuff like "cucked" and "trash barrel". if I'm wrong and that's just how you talk normally I feel sorry for anyone who tries to hold a conversation with you.
Great detailed video! External piston guns really only have advantage over a traditional "DI" system in guns with very short barrels that are run suppressed most of the time. Beyond that, the weight reduction and balance that the traditional Stoner system provides outweighs the cons of running a little dirtier (and the fouling issue with DI is vastly exaggerated provided you use ammo that is not out of spec).
I own and like both designs, shoot 6-8000 rounds of 5.56 a year as a civilian, and all things being equal- Piston guns run noticeably cleaner both Unsuppressed and Suppressed. Di is just dirtier. But Di is slightly better balanced and slightly lighter.
I've never understood why you'd make an AR15 style weapon system piston operated. There's no need for the bolt carrier system if it's being driven by a piston, just go AR18 style.
It's to continue familiarity, experience and training with the platform. I.e. you are used to where the buttons are already. All the time spent on drills for years is not lost.
@@ErikLosLobos you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I carried an SA80 for years, that's an AR18 derivative, training on one would not carry over to the other. If you're making an AR15 piston operated, that makes the bolt carrier group redundant because it's designed around "direct impingement". You can make an AR18 rifle with the exact same manual of arms as an AR15, the new Sig rifle functions like and AR15, it's not an AR15 derivative.
So, when people talk about short stroke, versus direct impingement, is this the situation they are referring to, where direct impingement refers to the gasses direct effectly on the bolt in the original Stoner design ?
What do you think about the Tinck Perun X16? Its operating system strikes me as a good hybrid between the short stroke gas piston and direct impingement. It gets rid of the worst reliability questions of DI while still having less moving mass than a piston system.
I always thought the main reason to want such a system is to use it with a silencer, since you tend to get a lot of gas in the face using a standard AR-15 with a silencer.
Was at the range a year ago and through my membership I get a free rental when I visit. I grabbed an HK to try out and really liked it, just wish it had the fun switch.
Yes the Stoner gas system is different than conventional direct impingement gas system, which is why its one of only ones used still used. But the M16A4 full length Rifle though probably one best versions of the M16 is not used anymore by the US military. They have all switched to Carbines like the M4. The problem is Stoner gas system works best (as that is what it was designed around) with long barrels (22') and gas tubes, so full length Rifles. But such system just don't work well with Carbines and their shorter barrels/gas tubes. Leading to even higher jams and failure rates for the M4 than the standard M16 ever had. This has been improved but its still below Carbines that use short stroke gas pistons. So first the US Marines switched to HK416 and the US Army is expect to fully switch to M5. Though not because of new 6.8mm ammo only, but the weapon is based on the SiG Spear. Meaning its modular and can switch to 5.56mm with barrel switch, that a individual soldier can do without an armor. Based on USM and US Army testing, both new Carbines have significantly lower failure and jamming rates than either the M16A4 or the M4.
@@nobodynoone2500 How many rounds does he put threw it, is it at least 100 at a time? How many hours is the gun in steady use? How long between firings can he clean and maintain it? Does he use high quality civilian ammo or standard NATO rounds, made in the late 1990's? How many combat zones does he use it in? These are situations that have caused M4 issues in last few decades. I am not saying its a bad system or a bad gun, there is reason why handful of times manufactures have tried to make a new Direct Impeachment system other than the Stoner gas system they have failed miserably. What I am saying is that any system that uses a gas tube system and direct impeachment style system has issues with the gas tube and heavy use, even the 22" barrel M16 can. So an M4 with its shorter tube gets gunked up quicker leading to misfires, jamming and failure to fire. That is why the M4 needs more frequent cleaning and maintenance than older M16 models relatively speaking. When deployed to the Middle East and under heavy use in combat environments. It should be noted that US Army and Marines are only now replacing the M4, since until now no other rifle offered enough of an increase in reliability to be worth cost and retraining switching to a new rifle would incur. Meaning until recently most other rifles and carbines using short or long stroke gas system were still not that much better than M4 and its Stoner Gas system.
Oddly enough wasnt one of the main reasons the US Army never fully embraced a full on 416 or even Gas Piston upper for every (so far) failed attempt on M4 replacement as it just didnt really give much benefit even if it did simplify cleaning and increased full auto reliability just because neither of these really benefit the main army
From what I understand of US military history, the Army was always the most conservative part of all the armed forces. It was usually marines and special forces that pushed for new weapons. And it kinda makes sense as anything after M16 were only marginal improvements that would be of zero use to an average infantryman.
money, and probably a lot o amrican/nationalistic chest thumping not wanting to admit DI is simply inferior in anything but weekend paper target shooting in perfect conditions.
The average infantry won't see the benefits of the HK 416 because if you're not putting 1000s of rounds through your gun every year, it doesn't matter if a bolt breaks at 6000 rounds or 20,000 rounds even if you will save money in the long run because the up front cost of the HK 416 is multiple times more expensive than an M4. The HK 416 start to make sense when you have short barrel such as 10.5" or 11.5" where parts breakages are accelerated due to the shorter barrel length and that's where the more durable materials used in the HK 416s beat out the M4 and MK18.
@@lordmetzgermeister Off the top of my head, Marines usually get the table scraps of the Army, and the Army gets the good stuff. The NGSW program that lead to the XM7 is mostly an Army thing. This may have changed with different administration's budgets though.
i wont lie, i have an irrational hatred for external piston operated AR15 platforms. but i understand why they exist and can appreciate them when the proper thought goes into making them. if you get the chance to do a video on the Taiwanese T65 et al rifles, that would be interesting.
A huge thanks to World of Guns for sponsoring this video.
We’re experimenting with a new lighting set up which means at times the HK416 is quite dark. We’ve learned from this video and have made changes for the next one. We apologise for the inconvenience but hope it doesn’t detract too much from the video. Thanks for bearing with us while What is this Weapon grows and improves.
RAD! Would be nice if Larry Vickers is here. XD
Cinematic mode :P
Das Sturmgewehr heißt HK - vier eins sechs oder vier sechzehn
@@pyeitme508🤠🇺🇸
What on Earth is that weird metallic tapping noise all through the video ?
I've never seen Jonathan Ferguson, the Keeper of the Firearms and Artillery at the Royal Armouries Museum in the UK, as elated as he was when talking about the mechanics of the chamber of AR-15 platform.
Great video!
Weird right but a nice surprise
I noticed that too - I bet he'd just had a really good cup of tea!
Big fan of the AR. Incredible piece of 'space age' industrial design and an iconic weapon.
Most operating systems seem like something you could come up with yourself if someone else didn't beat you to it. The Armalite system really comes across as one designed *by engineers.*
@@smorrow I really do appreciate the cleverness behind the AR15's gas system. Unfortunately though, most people that own them probably don't even know how it works, let alone appreciate it.
I normally hate video sponsors but this is the perfect collaboration
Me too :D
It's also relevant to his subject, not like people on history channels shilling for knives or owning art or worst of all, Scottish land. I like to think the Royal Armouries would safeguard their reputation and not get involved with sketchy dealings.
I remember playing with this when I was a teen in 2014, now working professionally as a 3D artist it's becoming quite a good quick and dirty reference tool to see internals and how weapons function as someone without easy access to things other than bolt actions and shotguns 😂
I didn't realize it until I saw this comment
I know my colleagues wouldn't, but if they tried for some reason to do Established Titles or frankly anything not related to our subject, I simply wouldn't agree to take part. @@boomslangCA
Jonathan trying to, politely as possible, interpret the phrase "Shits where it eats" is one of the highlights of the channel.
Lol it was a good explanation though the first time someone explained how it's not gas impingement as the bolt is a piston
😂 you saw/heard it too?
@@whitewittock Plenty of people have explained that over the years, it's not like it is a 70 year old secret :) Reson it has become such a thing in recent years though is because of "Well actuallly" meme people :)
I really liked the brief look of panic as he rolled through possible phrasings in his head, trying to figure out something that will pass muster with both the _museum bosses_ and also the _new sponsor._
@@whitewittockmost folks don't know this.
Once read an interview with one of the developers of this rifle, one quote I remembered: "I have no idea how long a HK416 bolt and/or extractor lasts. I have never seen one break."
Not sure how that holds up but it was impressive to hear.
I was issued the military version of the 416 when I was in the Marines. One day we went to the range and the 9 or so that we had in my platoon were shot by everyone for shits and gigs. Each 416 went through roughly 8,000 rounds in automatic fire and never experienced a single malfunction. It is the best AR platform I have ever used and possibly one of the best ever manufactured.
@@skinWalkman Isn't the Marine Corps where a General wants to make the M27 standard for everyone?
@@23GreyFox it was officially adopted by the infantry a few years back. There are a few guys with M4A1s still floating around but by and large the corps has issued the M27 to all riflemen
@@skinWalkman Looks like my country will adopt the HK416A8 for the army as G95A1. 118k rifles for the start.
@@23GreyFox the Bundeswehr deserves the best rifle on the market. Especially one developed in Germany.
Great video. I’m a former uk Police firearms officer. We traded our G36 carbines for HK416 carbines. They were a great improvement in all ways. As with most police weapons, they were carried a lot and shot VERY little, therefore the easy of cleaning this reliable weapon was greatly appreciated . It is a Rolls Royce of carbines.
@@justotalkalottashit8392the UK doesn't have more guns than people
Here in Canada we have ARs.
Knights Armament Company is like.....amazing. Super expensive.
Great decision on the UK Rangers for going with 13.7 inch KACs. Super good move.
Basically 0.5 MOA with MK262. Reliable. Oversized and rounded off lugs. Butter. One of the few DI guns you can run pretty dry due to the metallurgy.
@@justotalkalottashit8392 Your comment demonstrates profound ignorance
@@themightymcb7310 I would imagine given that brits hardly qualify as "people"
@@themightymcb7310just more concealed weapons of the other varieties
I was issued one of these in the slightly modified form of the M27 IAR. It's shocking how much superior one of these feels compared to an m16/m4. I ran one for 11 days straight of ranges using both live rounds & blanks. I was shocked at how every time i disassembled it for cleaning the chamber/receiver was virtually spotless. It's almost impossible to foul one of these to the point of malfunction. To me this is the AR system perfected.
I think HK makes civilian variants in 22 LR. I hope they make them in 5.56 because they look nice and high quality. But I really want an AK-74 but I feel like I cant trust American brands, and Kalashnikov USA is taking forever to release their version of the 74
@@Mistah_Boombastic_BiggieCheeseHK MR223 is what you're looking for. The MR223 (Match Rifle Caliber .223) is the civilian version of the 416 in 5.56. The civilian version of the 417 is called MR308.
@@Mistah_Boombastic_BiggieCheese Someone already gave you the name of the civilian version of the 416, but the .22LR version is produced by Umarex under license from HK and is essentially an airsoft gun that's been re-designed to fire actual bullets.
@@Far1988 can that .223 rifle accept 5.56?
@@Mistah_Boombastic_BiggieCheese .223 Remington is just another term for 5.56x45 NATO. So yes
The fascinating bit to me is, Eugene Stoner designed the early version of this short stroke piston system which as used in the AR-18. So, when militaries started convincing themselves the modified DI system in the AR-15 that Stoner also designed was too dirty, they ended up buying a Stoner design modified with another Stoner design. Really, Eugene Stoner is the Thanos of assault rifle design, he is inevitable.
The problem being the procurement process for the US military. Had the US military bought and "owned" all designs they "buy" and then the US military can select anyone they want to build, then the AR-10 would have replaced the M1 in the 1950s, and not gone through the M14 phase, where the inferior object won the contract because the company backing it was larger.
The AR-10 was superior, but it wasn't until Colt pitched it did it "win" and become the M16.
Had the process allowed the military to "buy" the design from AR and license Colt to produce them, we would have gone straight to the M16/M4 and never had the M14s, which have an incredibly limited use as a sniper rifle, and are still used for ceremonial purposes, as the last wood-stocked weapons selected.
I don’t think Stoner was the main designer of the AR18.
I heard Jamey Caldwell say that he got one of the first HK 416 uppers in the Unit
Isnt the ar Just a more flushed Out Copy of the stg44? Dont get the stoner hype
@@BananaRama1312No, if anything Stoner copied the MAS-44 and the Johnson rifle, the AR has nothing in common with the Stg....
A lot of sponsors would strike me as being a bit gauche for a museum video channel, but this partnership is spot on. Various channels explain the workings of firearms, but it's hard to imagine anyone explaining the mechanical nuances of a gun quite as well as World of Guns can animate the action. I hope they continue working not only with this series, but other channels well.
It's one of those partnerships so spot-on that no one can say anything bad about it.
This man enthusiasm about firearms is infectious and a joy to see. This is the reason why I own firearms and appreciate the engineering behind them.
Yes, I particularly appreciate that a Brit is a firearms junkie. I'm entirely on board with everyone enjoying how much fun and utility there is in gun ownership.
He's probably one of the few people in Europe who gets to handle and fire all sorts of really nice guns...and the fun ones to boot.
Lucky bugger..
I at least live near a place where I can pay a small fortune to fire guns with the happy switch but it's a rare treat to do so and not an every weekend sort of affair.
I must say that the mp5 is one of the funnest guns to shoot in auto mode. And FAST. Haha
Ya should've seen me trying to control an ak. If ya wanna feel like a friggin noob go shoot one of those in "let 'er rip" mode.
@@alexander-lc4dr As a British gun lover trapped in this police state I feel this
@@alexander-lc4dr The worst thing is being from here and seeing other people from here all like "actually we can own guns by the way, just like anyone else" - commonly seen in e.g. UK vs. US Quora topics.
My usual response to these people is that seemingly every other EnglishShooting weekly livestream has something on either getting or keeping a licence being unreasonably difficult.
@@smorrow the fact that you can't carry a pepper spray for self-defense says a lot about the country. Like, I have realized long ago that I was bamboozled by Western media into believing that there's any resemblance of freedom in Europe and that Russia is a totalitarian state, but it still keeps surprising me how you can own an AR-15 with 100 round drums here (after five years of shotgun ownership, but it's still easier than in the UK, lol), but not in most of Europe. Inside the existing Western narrative about freedom and stuff, it's just funny to think about.
@@ForOne814This poor unfortunate soul stuck in Canada sympathizes. Fucking lame ass weapon laws here.
This has been the best explanation of the HK416 firing system I've seen so far. Using the WOG animation and actually showing the parts was perfect. Thank you!
I used to have the game but I kinda got bored with it because the cyclic rates of some guns were inaccurate. However, that was 4 years ago and I am hoping the game improved then
It’s also the standard issue rifle for the Marine Corps Infantry, now, dubbed the m27 Infantry automatic rifle.
Used to just be the automatic rifleman had one, but then they decided might as well just give it to everyone. We’re rocking suppressors and variable zoom optics on them too, it’s a badass setup
From what I read when they were developing the IAR was that it was always intended to be the universal weapon for everyone. It's just that the AR got it first until there were enough to go around for the entire squad.
Should still be modernized into the HK416a5 with mlok handguards and a slim line stock though. Then it'd be something.
@@cm-pr2ys personally don’t see the m-lok happening, if for no other reason than the fact that the DOD is married to picattiny. (Which does have its merits) although m-lok would go a long way to reducing how front-heavy the gun is.
We ARE allowed to change the stock though, I think there are a couple DOD-approved stocks you can use, however the buffer tube is proprietary so you can’t just use any m-4 spec buttstock.
@@cm-pr2ys Germany is at A8 now. Steel inserts in the upper apparently.
Love my 416N. Coming from the HK G3, this thing is just as easy to operate but is definately less of a hassle to clean. The chamber is surprisingly clean, even after using it out in the tundra or swamp for 10 days ++, firing everything from ten to a hundred rounds per day. It's lower caliber though, but it weighs less, so makes one able to potentially carry 3x more ammo.
I call it the HK fourhundredandsixteen just to spite you all!
I call it HK vierhundert und sechzehn 😜
I call it the HK CDXVI
I've always called it Germanyscontributiontoavenging911.
Why not Fourtyonesix?
RAAAAAA
MY 3RD GRADE MATH TEACHER DRILLED INTO MY HEAD YOU NEVER SAID AND UNLESS THERE WAS A MIXED NUMBER WITH A FRACTION!!!!!!
I own a HK416 (MR556Clone) and it is hands down the best Rifle I have ever shot in 556! Highly recommend, my Combat Squadron also issued the Compact 416c during Deployments and omg I lovedddd range time on that baby lol. HK = Best
I live in Germany and of course I only have the MR223 (HK416) semi-automatically here. Precision and reliability are incredible, I have made 12,000 rounds in 5 years and never made a mistake, every cartridge fired and ejected cleanly...! I've never been able to do that with any other weapon! All parts are still original and there is no sign of wear, except for the charging handle from Geisele and the trigger which I converted from the German company UHL!
@@hansrichter5607 mine has never malfunctioned either, probably on 50k shot count too. The Germans make the best firearms in the World, anyone who says different are just salty about the 40s lol. Tbh I will only trust the Life of my family with a HK, bc I know it's not going to fail me as long as maintain them. I just with I could get the 416c they are soooooo sick fully automatic. Idk why anyone would want to carry a different 556 chambered rifle lol
As a former US service member I would have loved to have had a short stroke piston driven M4. It was miserable coming in from field training/exercises where there was little sleep, many hundreds of blanks/live rounds fired, and then having to deal with the carbon-crusted mess that was the inside of my service rifle before getting to go home. The piston would have saved a lot of time on cleaning, as well as increasing reliability.
I served with the HK416 (both N and K) in the Norwegian military. Couldn't ask for a better rifle, I even got the honour of baptising mine.
I've never used an M4, but have heard stories. The 416 will still get gunky, but in fairly easily cleaned areas, and it is forgiving when there just isn't the time or option to get the cleaning kit out. It keeps going.
As a unit armorer I hated the direct porting of the M-16 family. When I was in Basic we had the last cycle of M16A1s, and I had them jam on me when using blanks because it took almost no fouling for the cases to need more energy than the blank could generate; making it a "bolt action" (because I had to pull the charging handle every round).
Apart from just how carbon crusted they could get (in places which were very hard to get at) there is another problem (thankfully rare; but not zero) with people who are careless when cleaning inside the hanguards; where the gas return tube gets dented, which means sending the weapon back to depot... once you've managed to diagnose why it's malfunctioning. I've also see (once) the mouth of the gas return tube pinched; because something (probably a small rock) got into the chamber and trapped between the bolt carrier and the mouth of the tube.
When I've worked with short piston versions of the action none of those problems ever occurred.
Absolutely agree on the cleaning differences. Never handled HK416 but comparing M16/M4 and then using Galil/AK systems really big improvement there
There are trade offs to everything. A modern DI AR-15 is not unreliable and in many tests outperforms the reliability of the AK (piston). Our forces are not sitting around with no way to clean or lube their weapons during a deployment.
Personally, the lightweight and accuracy of DI is worth it for me over the added complexity (more price, then consider at bulk) and recoil impulse. I’ve never shot a smoother rifle than a DI 556
The reality is that the dual rail system of the AR-18 allows the BCG to move backwards without tilting, which is why most short-stroke piston rifles are based on the AR-18.
The latest M7 is again a variation of the AR-18, and not a hybrid AR-10 with short-stroke gas piston.
Having a piston strike face non coaxial to the centroid of the carrier will always induce a moment on the carrier. This is also true of the AR-18 type carrier. It just doesn't matter as much with the AR-18, unlike the rear of the AR carrier which will impact the lip of the receiver extension if tilted too much.
The XM7's bcg actually doesn't use the AR-18 style dual rails even though it's 5.56 sister the MCX Spear-LT does. It instead has one long recoil spring nestled into the somewhat long operating rod. Fortunately, still means no buffer tube is needed. Forgotten Weapon's (of course) has a good teardown of the rifle if you want to see it for yourself.
@@Rosenritter_ indeed, you are correct. But the point is that there is a rail system aligned with recoil vector, thus not creating a rotational force that would induce tilting. The HK416 is like a Porsche 911 in the sense that having the engine in the back is not a great solution, but the Germans have engineered out the issues to actually make it a very good sports car.
The ar15 is the only aluminum frame rifle that I know of and it makes sense what the knight armament guy said that only the internal piston action reduces tilt and wear on the inside of it. So why would anyone go to the expense of this complex aluminum frame and then put an external piston on it, just for the look?
@@whitewittock Aluminum is a common receiver material for rifles. The SCAR and CZ Bren 2 both use aluminum extruded receivers with built-in carrier rails. Also, the HK416's carrier has extra material on the bottom to limit carrier tilt.
I already use World of Guns for what I have, but it's so cool to see it used by someone with far more knowledge than I. Thank you Jonathan, very cool.
The first time the stoner system was actually explained to me I was really amazed and appreciated the idea. How actually everything moving is in line.
The potential issues are there too - the piston being necessarily more enclosed compared to either of the gas piston systems.
But still made much more sense than my original idea that the gas from the gas tube "blowing" on the bolt gas extension (which I didn't know is actually hollow)
As someone less interested in historical firearms, but recognizes this being a firearm museum, its cool to see modern weapons from more recent history.
If you are dumping ludicrous amounts of rounds through it, the gas accumulation starts causing problems and is dumping even MORE heat into the action. The heat dumping out the short stroke piston in the front of the 416 and the fact it never got back into the action made for a MUCH cooler weapon that could shoot for an longer time. The barrel still got hot, but at least the gas took a lot of heat with it to not dump into the action. Also if you put a suppressor on it, the back gassing was not nearly as bad either.
The main issue is that the stoner impingement has had a terrible record in Vietnam, Afghanistan, and especially Iraq. 35% of soldiers who used the M16 during the period it was in Iraq experienced a malfunction that was hard to clear, or disabled the weapon for the whole firefight. The talc-like Iraqi dust was one cause.
@@Tattlebot Yeah I know enough about desert Talc and Solifugids.
The Vietnam procurement was a shot show but you get dust in the action of any weapon and it will struggle, the AR is extremely good at keeping it out and forcing it out.
Fun story about that, the HK416 is so fun to shoot for a long time that a few Norwegian soldiers got sick from the noxious fumes from the new "environmental" ammo when taking it to the range. It was an indoor range, and they had to rethink procedures a bit since the ventilation had always been sufficient previously.
@@MrVeps1 was that m855a1
This is a worthy sponsor for the channel indeed.
3:37 In my humble opinion, you're correct in calling this 'grafting on', but in their defence, there certainly were deficiencies in the AR15 system the HK designers were trying to address this way.
7:12 I'm surprised that suppressors weren't mentioned here as a reason to look more favourably upon piston-operated designs, and HK416 in particular. Sure, one can fit a gas adjustment valve on a 'DI' gun, but from what little I've seen of them, especially going back to the time when the purchasing decisions you mention were made, these weren't the easiest things to use.
10:49 Roasting aside, I would love to see you picking apart the changes HK made to the M4. 😉
15:31 I gather the problem isn't just in the lack of efficiency, but in the wear a steel bolt carrier introduces upon an aluminium receiver.
Yep, suppressor use is a good reason to go 'external piston'. As it wasn't the impetus, I consciously left that out for time. 20mins is about the limit - they sometimes let me go longer :D As for receiver wear, yes, I should have specified that it's not REALLY functioning that's the issue - the gun can take it for as long as it lasts - it's parts wear and reduced service life that become the problem. Hazards of filming everything off the cuff I'm afraid.
@@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries Thanks for clarification, much appreciated! Would I be correct in surmising that it was time constraints that prohibited you from discussing the merits of the G36 style of piston head (or, one might say, gas plunger) further?
It's a great pity that there's little opportunity for you to go about with C&Rcenal style of long content (to say nothing of proper documentaries, like those with Dr. Tobias Capwell) at least once in a blue moon. I believe it would be greatly appreciated, if only judging by how well the live demonstration was met, and so were livestreams with Ian.
Yeah the backpressure that suppressors cause on, especially on SOCOM's bread and butter: DI short barreled rifles, really is a bitch for parts durability, recoil, but imo most importantly the fact that the shooter would get a lot of irritating hot gas in the face. The latter sucks even more if you're shooting left-handed. Short Stroke piston guns of course just eject the gas at the gas block, away from the shooter's face so that problem is solved.
@@Rosenritter_ Suppressor-caused backblast from the bolt carrier can also increase visibility, as far as I get it, which is obviously highly undesirable.
This is the first time I've seen them sponsor ANY channel
nothing's better than the demonstration from the expert, thanks for the show
I would LOVE to hear your take on the WWSD (What would Stoner do) AR-15 that Ian from Forgotten weapons helped birth, it's basically a "what if Eugene Stoner made the AR-15 in 2020"
Thanks, World of Guns, you rock! WOG is my go-to place for anything weapon mechanics related.
We agree!
I’ve never understood the unlocking of the AR 15 and AR 18 before. Your explanation is excellent!
Back when I was in the armed forces, I was issued the Canadian C7, which is pretty much a copy of the American M4 Colt. Seeing you pull the gun apart with the different pieces like that brought back memories.
It also made me remember just how many pieces that bolt carrier disassembles into. God I hated cleaning that thing. XD
Be happy you didn't have to drag the M75 (H&K G3) around, what a heavy ass rifle :-).
@@stenerlineI loved my Norwegian variation of the G3 (designated AG3) all untill it came to cleaning it as the chamber could be hard to reach with the fingers (luckily mine are long). It kicked like a Mare though, but I loved it every moment I used it, so Presise.
I actually really enjoy getting to see you break down and talk about more common and popular weapon systems.
Just interesting to hear your thoughts.
The weirdest part about this is hearing how excited Mr. Ferguson gets about AR-15 variant. We normally only see this when he is showing us weapons that made it to the Armory because it was part of some testing procedure, and is there for unique to the Armory's collection.
Happy you covered the HK416. I love that rifle
Why? They create more problems than they solve..Stoner's original internal piston works very well..
@@hairydogstail the reliability and build quality is the same. even recoil is similar. people like it bcuz of aggressive design which doesnt look like AR
The 416 is over complicated, over priced, over gassed and will shoot itself apart..Why people like something is another topic all together lol..@@ImotekhtheStormlord-tx2it
@hairydogstail this is greatly exaggerated, mostly because you cannot afford an mr556
Isn't the top rails hight over bore a bit higher on the 416 compared to standard ar15?
And the selector can be put on safe with the hammer down unlike typical ar15 rifles?
Yes to both.
The issues with the M16/M4 shaking itself apart really only show up in the very short-barreled weapons. When the barrel is shorter, the dwell time gets shorter and various adjustments have to be made to the gas system. Shortening the barrel makes recoil more violent and accelerates wear on the components. Yes, it's more complicated but that's the gist of it.
Yup. That is why external piston really only has significant advantages in short barrel guns that will be shot mostly suppressed. In a full size rifle and gas system "DI" is actually a better system as it's lighter and has less recoil impulse.
@@armynurseboy Until you put a suppressor on the end of a DI gun and it starts spitting hot schmutz out of the chamber directly into your face.
Gentleman, in practice, the HK is only a few percentage points more reliable then the M4A1 or C7/C8.
Not a big margin on FTF and FTE.
@@jaypee389Also the reason why the US military has not replaced with M16/M4 with newer rifles. When the improvements are only marginal/incremental, its not worth it to spend the money to replace the entire fleet of existing weapons AND their supporting logistical structure.
@armynurseboy
100%
With the simple addition of the M855A1..it transforms the unit. Huge energy dump out to I Believe 300m from a M4A1.
Chews up armor good too.
Jonathan, Jonathan , Jonathan, why the hell does this man make me so happy?
his smile . everything, he seems like a nice lad to be around, came here from h3vr cursed guns, i hope you see this comment, have a good day
5:57 I'm no gun expert, but I've actually used the M16 as an infantryman, and I can absolutely guarantee you that it's a bloody problem the gases are pumped right back into the bolt carrier. Not only is it harder to clean, good luck if you accidentally touch the metal parts near the bolt carrier after extended firing. We finally changed out to a short stroke piston rifle and the difference was night and day
Marine trucker here, Mild gun nerd, and previously user of an m16a4. Cleaning that bolt was completely vital to the gun continuing to fire and as soon as the fouling would hit a certain point the gun would become a blot action.
Nice to see the HK416 getting more recognition as time goes on.
I call that recess on the side the cam path pocket. Whenever you see it on a rifle, it generally means it has a stoner bolt or even a stoner BCG. One interesting case of this is looking at the side of a Pindad SS1 vs an SS2. The SS1 is an FNC, but the SS2 is essentially a Daewoo K2 inside as an FNC upper receiver assembly.
I’m proud to announce that I am among the top 10 for fastest times on the game modes for the HK416 on world of guns. It’s seriously an amazing game and you didn’t even have to tell me to get it because I already had it.
I've been waiting for Jonathan or Ian to visit the topic of the HK416 for a while. Happy to see this 😊 I remember my company being guinea pigs getting some of the first 416s in Norway back in 2008. The boys who got them were so happy about how little effort it was to clean them compared to the G3s we were issued before. I wish Jonathan would have delved into the topic of cleaning this versus cleaning the M4, cause I thought the 416s system would make less of a mess.
Easier to clean? You wipe off the bolt and the g3 is clean again
@@rustys.1070...if that's how you clean it, then you wouldn't pass the inspection of the gun cleaning...ever...
@Xirque666 but it ...would be clean..
probably one of, if not my most favourite weapon, liked the episode alot!
One thing that many U.S. SOF members have mentioned regarding the 416 is that they chew themselves apart. Whether it's due to the hybridization of the AR15 and the short stroke piston, or the 416 just being overgassed, they just don't last over heavy firing schedules. Many people who were issued them aren't a fan. On the other hand, what I've heard that is an advantage of the 416 for some is that in the environment of the Middle East, the 416 was capable of handling several shots completely unlubricated, preventing the dust from helicopters from gumming up the lubricant causing immediate malfunctions. At which point once you know things have gone hot you can just put a couple drops of lube into the gun to keep it running.
Yes, I've read/heard the same. You get user-level reliability but the price is paid by the armourers and arguably taxpayers. I didn't want to lay into the poor designers TOO hard - I'm already flying the DI flag pretty vigorously :D
For special forces though is this a problem? a gun that's slightly better but lasts half as long is a good trade for SF use.
Not necessarily - but as the move away from the 416 shows, there are now 'DI' guns that do the job just fine and avoid the need for extra maintenance and procurement
@@eps200
@@eps200 The problem is several fold. First off, that only applies in specific environments and conditions. Outside of that, testing and experience proves that the DI AR15 system is more reliable both from at the end user and armorer level. In addition to that, even the highest level of SOF aren't going to be pulling out a brand new gun every time they go on a mission. Because of how the 416 chews itself apart, parts breakages and malfunctions are going to be more common in field use than with a system that has longer longevity, and the 416 is much less consistent about parts breakages than the AR15.
This is combined with the fact that apparently it's a dice roll on how well your 416 will perform. Matt Pranka said in his interview with Slade Cutrer that his black 416 functioned fine, but he had nothing but issues with his golden 416.
It's true that in practice, if it really worked out exactly as you stated, that would be a worthwhile tradeoff. But usually designs that last longer do so because the design as a whole is more reliable, operates at lower pressures and under lesser stresses, and that translates to greater reliability in most standard operating conditions, not just in the long term.
If what's been said about the short stroke system causing the AR-15 style bolt to want to tilt when firing and increasing friction, that'd make a lot of sense.
We saw issues with the newer M855A2(I think?) chewing up the aluminum feed ramps because they had a harder tip, I imagine the whole bolt wanting to cam up and grinding itself down with every shot from constant bursts to full-auto suppressing fire would only take a matter of time before your getting jams from metal shavings building up in your action. ESPECIALLY if they're running them dry off the bird, then just putting in a few drops of lube once the dust settles down. IIRC AR's like to run WET, that whole bolt and carrier need to be lubed, not just a few drops here and there.
Ironically thats where the Semi-DI system is better, just close the dust cover when not shooting and when you are, the gas vents out the side of the bolt and blows any dirt and dust away from it anyways. You just gotta remember it's a closed system and to keep it closed, when you leave it open is when your lube becomes gritty paste.
15:50 bolt tilt = more friction, that's why the AR-18 type carrier was designed instead. Or alternatively, the Daewoo long stroker reduces this described canting or tilting action. But for some reason, the conventional long carrier / buffer tube arrangement still persists.
You know the g36 is an ar18 type mechanism.
I’d say it’s more of a selection of trade offs than a direct upgrade(s)
Piston system adds weight over impingement, but runs cleaner.
The 416 has more moving parts, and is going to be more of a hindrance to repair in the field, if it’s reparable at all. Granted, swapping a crushed or ruptured gas tube in an AR isn’t gonna be super easy either.
The gas system of the AR also makes it adaptable to barrel takedown systems, which, coupled with a folding adapter to the buffer tube, can allow you to essentially divide your overall length by 3 (depending on your buffer tube and barrel length) so you can have a more compact gun in storage than just using the takedown pins, and deploy it just as rapidly, if not more so.
Royal Armouries should always collab with World of Guns, super informative to actually see how it works while Jon explaining while an animation from the World of Gun is played
Great video and great sponsorship! Back when it was on sale i bought the world of guns lifetime access.
I must note that Jonathan seems to be very jubilant and particularly enthusiastinc when talking about the AR15.
I think a video on it is in order ;)
Please discuss the Zastava M19 and the 6.5 Grendel cartridge!
I’d love to see all the interesting variants compared! Great video.
Thanks John. Will keep it in mind for future content.
@@RoyalArmouriesMuseumme too, but in particular I’d like to know why each country has the demands that it does.
I would also like to see it, if only to hear Jonathan’s take on the Norwegians’ insistence that all proper service rifles need to have bayonet lugs.
That's the finest take on the AR-15 yet, in my humble opinion. I argue that the piston system is about the only thing the AR-10/15 needed. And the 417 is a masterfully made weapon as well. Great video as always.
Never got to play with a 416 but I served in the US Army for 9 years. Without regular cleaning the M16 family will get carbon buildup on the firing pin which can cause light primer strikes and failures to fire over time. But anything with an 11 inch barrel needs to be over gassed to function properly so I can understand why SF would make the switch for the additional reliability.
Thanks for the info. I now know why Capt. Nate Self's M4 failed to fire (went click instead of a bang) when he saw a taliban in the Battle of Takur Ghar Afghanistan. He admitted he never cleaned his weapon prior to that battle after few live fire drills.
I normally get my "deep firearm knowledge" from Ian McCollum of Forgotten Weapons fame but i must admit, i find your presentations quite satisfying, you've earned a subscriber.
As a Marine issued with an M27, I really like it. The gas system keeps the chamber clean, which can be the biggest issue with my old M4. It is slightly heavier, but overall, I prefer it to the M4
I remember when it was just Gun Disassembly, 1 and then 2. They had some pretty good models.
We made lot of new features in World of Guns
I wonder if there's a similar one coming for the mcx.
So great to finally see an expert explain that the AR10/15 isn’t direct impingement and that the internal pistol / stoner system is still the best system out there.
I am not the first to be fair. Chris Bartocci has been banging this drum for a while now :)
@@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries yeah I watch his channel too, it’s great
@@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries I hate to disagree with the fan club it’s just that physics.
As a Swede i advocate that the AG42 is the first true DI rifle :)
The first ISSUE DI rifle, yes...@@andersmalmgren6528
Great presentation with all the diversities around the technical solutions.
I for one agree with Johnathan. I appreciate the original Stoner design and how brilliant it is. The perceived “unreliability” of the M4 and the Stoner gas system comes from; as far as I can tell, mostly HK’s aggressive marketing campaign around this gun. It’s not perfect and it has it’s strengths and weaknesses just like everything else but I for one love the standard gas system and it’s simplicity while maintaining good reliability and performance under most conditions. There are some things that the piston system does better, and I’m glad the 416 exists to fill the certain gaps that exist in the standard design allowing one to choose either or, but I just cannot get past how genius the Stoner internal piston system is. The way it makes some parts pull double duty and reduces weight and moving parts, especially out over the barrel of the gun is just simply a master stroke from the mind of someone who clearly knew what they were doing. I also give full credit to HK for very cleverly mating their excellent interpretation of a short stroke piston system with an AR platform to create this gun.
Most of it comes from the 60s when the guns stoped working in combat due to soldiers getting the wrong amunition, among other things, look up the history behind that, it is realy super interesting and says allot about how old farts didn't care bout the lives of young soldiers as much as they did about their own ego. The 416 is more reliable in many situations though, however that is not allways due to the piston, like how the rear of the buffertube has "venting" holse in it preventing the system from geting water locked when firing directly after comming out of water. This is why Haenel in the end lost to HK to the german army since HK has a patent on those holes and apparently Haenel didn't know that.
It comes from the first iterations being fielded in Vietnam. However, even then, the unreliability issues were 100% self-inflicted. The Ordnance Dept switched the powder formulation without telling anyone. The new powder formulation (using surplus ball powder) burned dirtier and caused faster pressure spikes that threw off the wholen timing of the rifle. That alone caused 40% of the unreliability issues. The other 40% was the refusal to chrome line the chambers. That led to corrosion and casings sticking. Marry the two together, and you have a recipe for disaster. And I'm pretty sure the Ordies did it on purpose to sabotage the fielding. The last 20% were issuing flimsy magazines and NOT training poroper maintenance nor issuing cleaning kits. The end result was that the M16 left a bad first impression that many still hold against it today.
BTW, the short-stroke piston H&K used was not invented by them. It's essentially a modified Stoner AR-18 gas system...
I agree. The direct impingement system is generally fine, but it's not as good in (1) short barrel configuration, (2) while suppressed, and (3) in sustained high rate of fire.
@@LeviathanXX All valid points and backed up by real world data. I would agree that those places are where a piston system will excel.
Something to keep in mind is production in a military context. For example the stoner system isn’t suited for high rates of fire. Which is why the USMC wanted to replace their m4’s with the M27 and the m249 SAW with the M27 IAR since both guns are very similar and can be mass produced with just a simple change of barrels and magazines. Similar to the AK and RPK system. Something that I think would have been a better idea for the entire military instead of switching to the M7 spear
This might be the first- and last- YT video where I wanted more and longer bits from the sponsor, to better understand and appreciate the core content.
That's... not a thing. But here, it is the thing. And I LOVE the thing. More WoGs clips, please.
Thanks very much, Jonathan and team. Those World of Guns videos look great. I don't suppose they include the Robinson SR 11 though ;)
So, without the AR-18, it might have taken a lot longer before anyone else produced a short stroke gas piston variant of the AR military rifle design.
I wonder if Stoner only used the SVT style gas system on the AR-18 because the AR-15 design had been sold to Colt and thus he could only use the "2nd best gas system in the world" ?
I also wonder if Stoner was aware of Fosbery's pump action shotgun design or whether he independently invented the multi-lug AR bolt head?
They don't have the SR11, but they do have some wacky stuff like the EM2 and the Collier! Yes, as far as I know Stoner went 'external' piston precisely for that reason. As for Fosbery, Stoner got his bolt from the Johnson. Did Johnson ever see the Fosbery? Tempting to think so, it's just so similar.
@@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries Sometimes good inventions get independently recreated. For example, my analogue electrical system for measuring muzzle velocity turned out to have been previously published in the Engineering journal of 1876 by Robert Sabine.
They do, but the extractor and ejector setup is so similar I have to wonder @@derekp2674
Late comment but some of our guys got these in 2008 in theatre (UK Forces) and really liked them. Used primarily as marksman rifles.
For marksman rifles you’d more likely have the HK417. Was that part of the trial before they adopted the LMT?
Purist until you have to clean a standard AR. It becomes a big black mess inside after some rounds. The 416 stays relatively clean.
Hi Jonathan! Trying to find out if the gas in the m4 traveling down the tube actually goes into the breach area? The AK platform as you know has the rod that is pushed by gas!
All you need.
This video made me to subscribe. What can I learn about the AR15 vs 416, right, being so smart as I am. I learned a lot. Great job!!!
With regard to the age-old question, "What Would Stoner do?", I suppose in this case, as in many others, the answer is "not this".
This made me chuckle out loud :D
Well in this case he would be wrong, no one uses DI for a reason just as no one uses a FUDD 1911 outside US...
@@DD-qw4fz because people r stupid, the 416 is a worse gun then the ar15 and the only plus side is it better suppressed then an ar15 do to gas blowback, the 416 is less reliable and has more parts
😂😂😂
@@DD-qw4fz
No one uses DI? Are you joking?
wow, the 1st ad i didnt "skip".
kudos.
From what I heard years ago, the naming of HK 416 came about when HK wanted called it the HK M4. Colt sued them for the same name and they settled out of court and HK just named it 416, most likely taking the 4 and 16 suffixed and putting them together. I may be wrong with this info.
Yeah, Colt can be sticklers with that. They tried suing the US Government too over the M4 name. Colt claimed they owned it as a TM name.
Please do a video on all the different 416's!
this is a video I was looking for; I wanted an indepth explanation on *why* the HK416 is superior vs the AR-15. I knew it was but wasn't exactly sure on how to explain it to other's.
as always, Johnathan and his team at the Royal Armouries killing it!
Superior at expending more ammunition than a combat load (niche application)
You knew it was superior but didn't know how to explain it to others? Who are the others and how can you form opinions on anything like this?
I mean he's basically politely trashing the gun the whole way through but yeah confirm whatever bias you want ig
Easily one of my most favorite videos sir. Thank you!
I remember watching a 2006-7 era (I think) field test comparison between a then-current M4 model (which one in particular escapes me; it's been a minute) and the new 416. Guy doing the testing was German Infantry. The two designs competed on pretty even terms (even the being slathered with mud and rubbed with dirt test, so whoever tells you that ARs "don't like being dirty" needs to update their info from the Vietnam War) UNTIL they got to the water test: submerging man AND weapon in a simulated amphibious assault.
Pulling the 416 out of the water, you could IMMEDIATELY see the thought and care HK put into how the gun drains fluids go to work, and the guy was firing almost as soon as the gun surfaced above the water, and the high speed also showed the gun expelling water with the first two shots, so some big neuron energy was clearly invested in that design.
The M4 on the other hand... did NOT fare so well. The tester tried to do with the M4 what he'd just done with the 416, and the gun just... popped like a balloon. The high speed showed that the gun had a CATASTROPHIC failure, with the right side of the upper breaching and exploding, sending tiny shrapnel towards the cameraman (who was safely ensconced behind a safety wall, thank god).
Sans an M4 to test against, the 416 kept going, completing every additional test they threw at it, including managing to fire at a target above water from UNDER water (I doubt there's a huge use case for that, I think the guy just wanted to show that it COULD. You know, if you REALLY WANTED.).
That was the moment I became a believer in 416 Supremacy.
What Stoner designed was a work of pure genius, as he so often managed, but HK managed to take a good design and make it even better, and with old tech to boot. You really CAN teach an old dog new tricks after all.
Can you elaborate further on the point you made about the DI bolt having less friction ? The gas in the DI system and the piston in the 416 push the bolt at the same height above the bolts center of mass
well actually that's kinda not true, you see how it actually happens is that the hot gasses coming from the gas tube actually enter the bolt carrier and make their way in to the expantion chamber and since the gas rings are blocking the way and the bolt which the gas rings are attached to can't move forward the expanding gasses end up pushing the bolt carrier backwards while in short stroke gas piston ar systems the piston straight up smacks the gas key
Great video! As Jonathan quite rightly points out, Stoner's DI system was revolutionary and not inferior; it was just not ideal for SF specific applications. It's hugely ironic that the HK416's short stroke gas piston is seen as an "upgrade" when it really is a step backwards technologically speaking. The HK416 is a better weapon - for the specific role it was designed for.
It is a mistake to think that the HK416 makes for a better standard infantry weapon than the AR15. When it comes to taking aimed shots in semi-auto out of a full length barrel, I don't believe there are any platforms more robust, reliable and controllable than the AR15. Most folks who think the AR gas system is dirty simply do not understand how it really works.
There is a reason no other AR design went DI, its just an american thing just like 50 cal or 1911, anyone knows DI is problematic SF use or not , always was always will be..otherwise SIG Spear would be DI as well...
Many German designs and redesigns have exactly that in mind. They're good at the exact thing they're designed to do, but not as good as an universal weapon. Over-engineering has its downsides... and that's coming directly from Germany lol
@@DD-qw4fz lol, the AR-15 isn't even a true DI, that's just used to shit on it by people that have no idea what they're talking about, a real DI would be something like the FN49.
The AR-15 uses its bolt and carrier as the piston, and is actually cleaner than most guns because it's gas vents out the side of the bolt through the ejection port clearing away carbon, dirt, mud, etc.
The only time it's worse is when people fuck with it, like using short barrels with suppressors without redesigning the gas tube. That's when you get a shit load of extra heat and gas, plus tons of unburnt carbon building up in the action screwing the gun up.
As for the 1911, if it was so bad how come literally damn near EVERY modern handgun copied it's action and uses a Browning style tilting barrel?
Dirt is from the ammo
Shoot top notch ammo be surprised how clean it is
Won’t believe it was fired
@@pyro1047 Actually, most modern pistols use Webley self-loader type of locking (not a Browning design at all) and FN GP35-derived style of tilting barrel, in which J. M. himself wasn't putting all that much faith and which was in actuality mostly designed by D. Saive, despite all the marketing. M1911 was influential, yes, but it was a century ago, and times have changed.
The real beauty and genius of the AR platforms gas impingement piston system is how "gently" it opens the bolt, gas pressure is pushing the bolt forward into the case as the carrier moves backwards, since the bolt is pushed forward it takes pressure off the locking lugs and the bolt face spins smoothly and easily on the case head. The cam pin and cam track just guide the system.
The main problem with typical (non HK) gas piston conversions of the AR is the fact that the bolt carrier is slammed backwards with all the rearward pressure still on the locking lugs, the cam pin and cam track takes a massive impact violently torquing the bolt and sheared locking lugs are a common problem.
HK fixed that by redesigning the cam track and bolt lugs to work specifically with the short stroke system, unlike conversions that typically use standard bolts and standard carriers with a modified gas key.
I'm glad to know Jonathan is a admirer of the original AR gas system and appreciates its genius as much as I do.
Should've mentioned the anti-tilt pads on the bolt carrier of the 416. That makes it go straight back :) Edit: HK Defence did not design the 416. It was designed by the engineers at HK Gmbh.
May I ask what kind of surface finish HK416 used? Coating or anodizing？
I wonder how many people you could annoy by calling this the "HK Forty-One Six"
They call blink 182 “blink one-eight-chew” and mustang boss 302 “mustang boss three-nor-chew”
funniest shit I've read in awhile
The AG 42 Ljungman has direct impingement, is it the same as the "Stoner system"?
Even though I prefer my Knight's SR15, the 416 will always have a special place in my heart. I shot a real full auto 10.4 inch 416 a few months ago and while it kicked like a mule compared to a nice DI rifle, I still couldn't help but feel like a SOCOM operator when I handled it lol. If I had infinite money to blow I'd definitely buy one of those $4000 police trade in 416 uppers.
What's the HK like if it's *not* overgassed?
Even DI issue guns (like the URGI) tend to be overgassed and kick more than a "properly" gassed civilian AR, so it'd be interesting to see what the A5 and subsequent iterations of the 416 are like.
The adjustable gas key is a welcome addition, I'm not sure why armies are so reluctant to trust their troops with adjustable gas ports, there's no need for shooter and gun to suffer increased recoil and parts wear because the rifle _might_ be used in extreme cold or when dirty. A soldier can always crank the port open if there's any doubt in their mind about reliability in the field. Just make it simple for them to do so.
If you teach your troops well and trust them, they'll perform better 👍🏻
Been issued a Norwegian 416 on and off since 2011. Always liked it. Would love a 10,4 inch version, but there is nothing wrong with the 16,5 inch barrel neither.
@@Ruben1994OLI actually used a Norwegian 416 while contracting in Afghanistan. It was a 14.5. Got to use a 10 inch 416 later. Out of all the guns that we had, the few left behind Norwegian guns were in best shape. So bravo for actually taking care of your stuff.
Whoa. On the M16 bolt carrier I always thought the gas just pushed the carrier group back. Does it also direct the pressurized gas inside the carrier group putting forward pressure on the rotating bolt proper? If so I'm curious how much pressure (especially compared to where the gas meets the top of the carrier group) and is it even necessary? I can see how it might improve reliability.
When one tries to use an AR-pattern rifle as a straight-up machine gun, the external piston with its better heat management is indeed the more durable system. For semi or occasional full-auto use (as the M16 was intended to be used) the internal piston (DI) gives nothing up in reliability or durability.
I've often wondered what makes the 416 so special. I appreciate this video
I own the civilian MR556 with a 4x ACOG and it’s a wonderful rifle, though a tad on the heavy side.
Unlike some good civ-friendly company that sells civ version of their contract mil rifle as close and faithful as possible.
MR556 isn't just a semi-version of the HK416. It is severely cucked by HK for us civs, just like their other rifles. Imagine you have to pay top money for a trash barrel and civ-only proprietary parts.
@@JohnZ556 It's a great rifle and I enjoy shooting it a lot.
@@JohnZ556 Sorry that upsets you so much.
@@activatewindows Why would that upset me? It's your money, do whatever that makes you happy. Just don't let sentimental values blind your judgment on objective performance.
I hope you never run it enough to exceed what HK thinks a civ rifle should endure. Keep it cool.
@@JohnZ556 sounded pretty upset saying stuff like "cucked" and "trash barrel". if I'm wrong and that's just how you talk normally I feel sorry for anyone who tries to hold a conversation with you.
Something about Jonathon talking about the Stoner weapon type makes me real happy :)
Great detailed video!
External piston guns really only have advantage over a traditional "DI" system in guns with very short barrels that are run suppressed most of the time. Beyond that, the weight reduction and balance that the traditional Stoner system provides outweighs the cons of running a little dirtier (and the fouling issue with DI is vastly exaggerated provided you use ammo that is not out of spec).
I own and like both designs, shoot 6-8000 rounds of 5.56 a year as a civilian, and all things being equal- Piston guns run noticeably cleaner both Unsuppressed and Suppressed. Di is just dirtier. But Di is slightly better balanced and slightly lighter.
Military Arms Channel just posted a video about a new 5.56 rifle known as Makasi which is a interesting hybrid between the AR-15 and the FN FAL.
It's on my Watch Later list...
You have to be insane to butcher a perfectly good FAL.
I've never understood why you'd make an AR15 style weapon system piston operated. There's no need for the bolt carrier system if it's being driven by a piston, just go AR18 style.
EXACTLY.
It's to continue familiarity, experience and training with the platform. I.e. you are used to where the buttons are already. All the time spent on drills for years is not lost.
@@ErikLosLobos you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I carried an SA80 for years, that's an AR18 derivative, training on one would not carry over to the other. If you're making an AR15 piston operated, that makes the bolt carrier group redundant because it's designed around "direct impingement". You can make an AR18 rifle with the exact same manual of arms as an AR15, the new Sig rifle functions like and AR15, it's not an AR15 derivative.
@@shanemjn I think that's what I'm saying. Confused
So, when people talk about short stroke, versus direct impingement, is this the situation they are referring to, where direct impingement refers to the gasses direct effectly on the bolt in the original Stoner design ?
Beat the plastic fantastic G36. To Spain's regret.
What do you think about the Tinck Perun X16? Its operating system strikes me as a good hybrid between the short stroke gas piston and direct impingement. It gets rid of the worst reliability questions of DI while still having less moving mass than a piston system.
I always thought the main reason to want such a system is to use it with a silencer, since you tend to get a lot of gas in the face using a standard AR-15 with a silencer.
Was at the range a year ago and through my membership I get a free rental when I visit. I grabbed an HK to try out and really liked it, just wish it had the fun switch.
With respect, this video was poorly lit. Backlit or something. The shiny ar-15 gas tube appears black.
I have to say, this is a very good explanation of the differences and pros & cons. I have just downloaded world of guns.
Yes the Stoner gas system is different than conventional direct impingement gas system, which is why its one of only ones used still used. But the M16A4 full length Rifle though probably one best versions of the M16 is not used anymore by the US military. They have all switched to Carbines like the M4. The problem is Stoner gas system works best (as that is what it was designed around) with long barrels (22') and gas tubes, so full length Rifles. But such system just don't work well with Carbines and their shorter barrels/gas tubes. Leading to even higher jams and failure rates for the M4 than the standard M16 ever had. This has been improved but its still below Carbines that use short stroke gas pistons. So first the US Marines switched to HK416 and the US Army is expect to fully switch to M5. Though not because of new 6.8mm ammo only, but the weapon is based on the SiG Spear. Meaning its modular and can switch to 5.56mm with barrel switch, that a individual soldier can do without an armor. Based on USM and US Army testing, both new Carbines have significantly lower failure and jamming rates than either the M16A4 or the M4.
Weird, my buddy has an 8" barrel on his ar "pistol" and it runs just fine. Got a single fact to back up your drivel?
@@nobodynoone2500 How many rounds does he put threw it, is it at least 100 at a time? How many hours is the gun in steady use? How long between firings can he clean and maintain it? Does he use high quality civilian ammo or standard NATO rounds, made in the late 1990's? How many combat zones does he use it in? These are situations that have caused M4 issues in last few decades. I am not saying its a bad system or a bad gun, there is reason why handful of times manufactures have tried to make a new Direct Impeachment system other than the Stoner gas system they have failed miserably. What I am saying is that any system that uses a gas tube system and direct impeachment style system has issues with the gas tube and heavy use, even the 22" barrel M16 can. So an M4 with its shorter tube gets gunked up quicker leading to misfires, jamming and failure to fire. That is why the M4 needs more frequent cleaning and maintenance than older M16 models relatively speaking. When deployed to the Middle East and under heavy use in combat environments. It should be noted that US Army and Marines are only now replacing the M4, since until now no other rifle offered enough of an increase in reliability to be worth cost and retraining switching to a new rifle would incur. Meaning until recently most other rifles and carbines using short or long stroke gas system were still not that much better than M4 and its Stoner Gas system.
i’ve been following this channel for years, how it doesn’t get more views i don’t understand
Oddly enough wasnt one of the main reasons the US Army never fully embraced a full on 416 or even Gas Piston upper for every (so far) failed attempt on M4 replacement as it just didnt really give much benefit even if it did simplify cleaning and increased full auto reliability just because neither of these really benefit the main army
From what I understand of US military history, the Army was always the most conservative part of all the armed forces. It was usually marines and special forces that pushed for new weapons.
And it kinda makes sense as anything after M16 were only marginal improvements that would be of zero use to an average infantryman.
money, and probably a lot o amrican/nationalistic chest thumping not wanting to admit DI is simply inferior in anything but weekend paper target shooting in perfect conditions.
The average infantry won't see the benefits of the HK 416 because if you're not putting 1000s of rounds through your gun every year, it doesn't matter if a bolt breaks at 6000 rounds or 20,000 rounds even if you will save money in the long run because the up front cost of the HK 416 is multiple times more expensive than an M4. The HK 416 start to make sense when you have short barrel such as 10.5" or 11.5" where parts breakages are accelerated due to the shorter barrel length and that's where the more durable materials used in the HK 416s beat out the M4 and MK18.
I'd be more careful with those words considering the XM7's pending service with the US Army
@@lordmetzgermeister Off the top of my head, Marines usually get the table scraps of the Army, and the Army gets the good stuff. The NGSW program that lead to the XM7 is mostly an Army thing. This may have changed with different administration's budgets though.
Did you intentionaly make the lighting bad to bring more attention to the 3D renders?
i wont lie, i have an irrational hatred for external piston operated AR15 platforms. but i understand why they exist and can appreciate them when the proper thought goes into making them. if you get the chance to do a video on the Taiwanese T65 et al rifles, that would be interesting.
Your hatred is completely rational. There’s really no reason for this system to exist.
Do you guys have the MPT-76?
Would love to see a video of it, especially in comparison to the HK.
Lets go a HK416 review!!!
A white tabletop! Excellent. I always had trouble making out details with dark guns against a dark tabletop. Kudos!!