Whats The Difference Between Pin Up and Pin Down | In Depth Guide!
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- Опубліковано 24 сер 2024
- Whats the difference between a bowling ball drilled pin up and pin down? Today we are going to cover that with the 900 Global Eternity Pi!
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my teacher and driller/proshop owner (that is playing world competitions over 50 and she's 30 years of experience) told me the following considerations:
- the total hook of the ball is the same both in the pin up vs pin down, what is different is the reaction. Pin UP hooks later but is more violent, pin DOWN hooks earlier but is softer
- in pin DOWN: the reaction is smoother as it starts to hook earlier (the ball starts to loose energy earlier, but in a soft way). The shape then is more circular than angular.
- in the pin UP: the reaction is stronger as it start to hook later (the ball keeps energy for longer, but it hooks in a more violent way and later). The shapen then is more angular than circular.
- In the pin up version, you can vary the distance from the pin to the fingers; the more is the distance, the more the ball will hook later but in a even more violent way. In a pin down layout, the distance from the pin to the fingers won't change almost anything.
- if you want a balance between the 2 versions, you can also drill on the pin, but not to avoid the warranty and to reduce the risk of ball's cracks you should drill completely the pin with the finger. If you're not drilling on the pin entirely you have to drill it at a minimum distance from it (check Storm's specifications for example, they explain that)
- What matters the most in terms of hook potential on symm balls, is not the position of the pin (pin up/pin down/on the pin), but is the position of the CG. A CG between thumb and figers will minimize hook potential (can be good for high rev players), a CG on the right (if you play with right hand) will maximize the hook potential (good for low revs players).
- High revs players to reduce the hook potential may also opt to drill the pin above/below/on the middle finger instead of above/below/on the anular or instead of in a more external position compared to the anular.
he said the exact opposite in the video, pin down hooks later and pin up hooks earlier. so which is it?
@@VincentsVideos if you search for the video "Pin up vs pin down - does it matter?!" from JR Pro Shop, they say almost the same I said...
They also add that pin up has more hooking potential (approx 5-6 boards more) but they confirm that pin down means smoother reaction while pin up provides later and stronger reaction...
@endystrike000 gotcha that makes sense. in that case would a longer pin-to-PAP distance make the ball travel even farther down the lane with a sharper hook
I’ve tried to watch a lot of videos on this. This one made it way more clear on the difference. Considering buying myself another IQ tour and drilling it pin down. Thanks for this.
My pin down ruby throws very straight and weak. Almost like a spare ball
@@LILR1CH LOL small world. I also had a pin down ruby when I bowled 1 handed. If I got it to the dry it would hook too early (much) if I got it up 10 it slid like a spare ball. So I sold it lmao.
I appreciate you saying that! I will say be careful with drilling lower DIFF balls pin down
Drilling a low diff symmetrical pin down is asking for a dud.
@@TaiNiPoni damn hha did u just sell it to a friend or where?
I learned about pin up/down for the first time on my 900 eternity pi. I ended up drilling the ball pin UP to take advantage of greater hook potential EARLIER. I'm noticing there is more room for aggressive pocket hit angles with the eternity pi drilled pin UP in my game. My balls tend to be way too long before they react on the back end and don't hook much for my asyms. This video demonstrates the incredible hook potential (i.e., hooks late and violently) and better angle into the pocket.
You did a fantastic job of describing this, and I believe that those who are new to bowling got a lot from it. I also truly enjoy your stuff.
Thank you so much! I really appreciate that!
Really enjoyed this video. Have always wondered what the difference is between up and down and you really helped 👍👍
Glad it was helpful!
That's a very helpful video 😀👍. I'm starting to try pin down layouts. Now I know exactly how to evaluate them
So glad to hear that!
I got an Eternity Pi today and drilled it pin down. Using it in the tournament tomorrow. Going to roll it first time in frame one. This is the best video explaining pinup/down.
I like a little bit of both pin up and pin down.
👍
very helpful clear & concise
Great video Luis, very informative, keep up the great work!!
Thanks, will do!
Good to know. I'm looking for a 6th ball to add to Proton, Cosmos, Summit, TDX, and Ruby with 5" buffer. Recommendations please.
Something like the virtual energy blackout will fit in just fine
Great video Luis. This was a very clear explanation and demonstration of the pin up and pin down ball motions. Your choice of this ball, made the roll/hook visibly easier to see. Thanks.👍👊✌🖖
Thanks for that Tim!
Thanks for the video. Just learning about pin up/down.
Glad to help
Great video! Thanks for explanation. So if we bowl on a lane with a lot of oil...should I bowl with a pin up or pin down? I would guess there is more to the answer depending on many other factors but based on responding quick to friction a pin up would be the one to start with?
Many factors here but typically pin up
You and the Pi were one 🧘🏻♂️
Seriously!!! Loving this ball
Great Video and Subject! I learned that pin balls make more flare rings, so if you need that extra boost on heavy oil patterns, go pin up. And pin down makes less flare rings, so If your bowling on a typical house shot, go pin down to pull some of the hook back from the friction. Both are useful, depending on the underlying conditions, just depends on your speed and rev rate and what your bowling on.
Thank you!
Thanks for the video. That was the easiest explanation of pin up vs pin down I have seen yet. Keep up the good work.
That was my goal!!! Thanks for that!
Great video!
I'm so glad you did another one of these comparison videos. I have to educate, and sometimes argue, with people about this all the time. Honestly, until I watched your first video on the subject, I thought it was the opposite way around. Thank you for the great content.
I appreciate that!!
Awesome ball to compare pin up vs pin down. You can really see how it responds near the end of the pattern. And where it finishes at the back of the pin deck.
Absolutely!
Great video! Love all the information! Very helpful thank you so much for making great content. Plus had the pleasure of meeting you at south point plaza. A+ person making A+ content. Thanks again. Keep up the great work!
I really appreciate that!!!
Excellent video! Being speed dominant, I need strong pin up stuff on most conditions. Thanks!
Thats good that you know your arsenal!
Learning about it for the first time my Bowling Aly burn down with my balls in it so I’m looking for a new ball
What a great video. Got my first ball this week and went pin up. I was using another guys pin up before but mine is drilled a bit different. Now I have to change a bit because it's hooking much earlier. Love the explanation here. I think it could be me not hooking correctly with mine too though.
Could be a lot of factors! Surface of the ball can play a huge factor also
thanks luis,
You're welcome
Luis, great videos! What is your rev rate? thank you!
Last I checked a few years ago was 390 ish
I have a (Pin Up) Black Widow Hybrid 2.0 and just started using my Black Widow Legend (Pin Down). I can totally tell the difference. I'm glad I have a pin down bowling ball, though.
Everyone should have at least one!
At what point in building an arsenal should you add pin down? What type of core/cover combination is best suited for pin down, and how does that differ from just having a balanced mix of sym/asym & solid/pearl/hybrid, etc.?
For additional context, I'm slightly speed dominant, with a moderate rev rate (low to mid 300)
For me I like to keep lower RG higher diff cores with stronger covers pin down and at least one in bag that’ll allow me to play closer to the friction
Another great video!!
Thanks again!
My stuff is usually pin up and drilled at Sam's Town even though I live in west Texas .
Oh nice! With Chris Hayden?
@@LuisNapoles absolutely,!
Thoughts on pin down symmetrical ball?
I don’t mind it AS LONG as the ball has like .040 or more diff
I think why the pin down/up info used to be "reversed", (and why I see a few comments stating exactly what I was taught about pin up being "later") is due to perception.
For example; you say the pin up reacts to friction "sooner", yet that layout goes further down lane before turning sharply to the left. So how is it reacting "sooner"?
Conversely, the pin down layout starts turning earlier on the lane, with a less aggressive shape, even though you say it reacts to friction "later".
I think the reason is because with the pin up ball, you move 5 boards left, so the ball skids in the oil (center of lane) longer, and it hits friction further down lane. So, the pin up ball reacts "sooner", but is not hitting friction until "further" down lane.
Is that correct?
As such, it makes most sense to drill my solid covers as pin down, and as I follow transition left, have my pearl covers drilled pin up?
I mean yea I can get with that*
@@LuisNapoles lol what?
awesome video Luis!! That ball looks amazing!!
Thanks yea it does! I love that ball!
I like having a mix of pin up and pin down in my bag.
Same!
I prefer pin up, the old "stacked" layout with the MB next to thumb not in thumb.
Nice!
Great explanation! Very good vid.
Thanks for that!
Got a pin down, 14 lb IQ Tour Ruby, and it’s an adjustment since I’ve been pin up 15 lb since coming back to bowling. But I like the look it’s giving me and the controllability when missing slightly. But it’s a lot easier to tug a 14 lb ball when compared to a 15 lb ball.
I would disagree with that. I did a video throwing 14 nd felt very similar
Great video explaining the difference between pin up & down, but what does it mean when the pin is on the right side of my finger holes? Almost all of my balls have the pin on the right of my fingers. I used to bowl at a club that was dry as a bone & hooked like hell. I needed a ball that hooked late, but now can't get it to hook until way to late on a oily lane.
It’s like half way between both
I like pin up it fits my style of bowling
Me too mostly!
Most of my balls are drilled pin up, but I had one ball that was pin down, which I did very well with. I guess it depends on the cover and core of the ball, matching up with my style and the lane conditions.
Definitely yea!
Thanks for this review... If I go with an Eternity PI for the top of my league bag, I will probably have it drilled pin down.
I believe it also depends on your rev rate though too, cause pin down for me it works better.
💯💯💯
I have both pin up and pin down and i feel like i score more consistently with the pin down configuration. I feel like i have more control than the violent pin up snappy ball. If that makes any sense? Thanks for the tutorial,very expanitory.
I normally let my pro shop guy choose. He knows my game so I trust his judgment. Looking at my equipment, most of the balls are pin next to fingers.
Gotta mix up those layouts!
@LuisNapoles I took your advice. Just got the Eternity Pi pin down... I love how smooth it is! I had the pro shop guy put 3000 on it also. What a difference from everything else I got!
Early in my bowling "career", I was told that pin down makes the ball hook earlier. I later understood it, or thought I understood, to be that a pin down ball starts its roll phase sooner than pin up - essentially burning up some of its energy sooner, which smooths out the reaction on the back end response to friction. Had a chance to understand this for myself when the Hammer Widow Ghost released. Everyone I saw with the ball drilled pin up, the ball was relentless - angry, violent hook. I saw a vid of Mitch Hupe throwing a pin down Ghost, and decided to buy one and go pin down for myself, and was very pleased with the result. Think pin placement in relation to up/down position is all about energy retention and dispersion based on the type of motion the bowler is looking for in that piece.
Pin down will take longer to respond to the friction while pin up will react sooner to the friction
I think something to add is that if you are a high rev bowler, Pin down can be helpful on burn/transition. I run into issues as a high rev bowler where the Pin up balls want to get started up too early and then puke down lane like in your gem video where for you the pin down rolled way better for you.
Should have added that ye!
I have a standard layout I use 5x4x13/4, and if I like the ball motion and what the ball is giving me that I will typically drill another one pin down just to have a different look on different conditions
What’s standard for you might not be fkr someone else! But yea I hear ya!
@@LuisNapoles you are 100% correct
Remember for YEARS ignorant pro shop operators told people pin down balls hooked earlier. I hope those cavemen are out of business.
Seriously lol
My understanding is pin down stretches the hook and roll phases to smooth/blend the reaction/shape, making it more of an arc. It does so by hooking earlier.
Pin up hooks later but has a quicker, and more violent/angular, reaction to the friction downlane.
That's what I always understood as well @@nevinkinzel
You mean all of them 😂
It seems to me that when considering pin up vs. pin down, one should take into account what the ball was designed to do.
All of these companies design these balls to do different things. Some are more angular, some are smoother. Some are for heavy oil, others are for lighter oil and everything inbetween. Some are stronger, some are weaker.
To me, this is the point of having multiple different types of balls in your arsenal.
Trying to completely change what a ball is designed to do would be like trying to make a bomber (airplane) fly like a fighter jet.
I can get with that yea
It depends on how you throw/release a ball.
I drill pin down for early fast response and pin up for length and smoothness.
It doesn’t matter how you throw the ball. Science says that pin down will increase RG and decrease diff while pin up will increase diff and decrease RG
I'm not sure why more bowlers, when they find a ball they love, don't have one drilled pin up and one drilled pin down. I did this years ago with my Hammer Black Widow Pearl. Never a guessing game when I needed to switch balls.
Yea I can kinda agree with that
I have a arsenal and most of them are right handed while I am left handed while a few are left handed. a hyroad x pin down under the middle finger with trucut version of 1500 grit polish and on the burn in game one it goes long and whips down lane and love it ( left handed and so is my spare ball). I have 2 IQ tour emeralds same layout but one has the normal finger holes while the other is the vise interchangeable fingers with the center of finger holes drilled deeper with a smaller drill bit but the emeralds same layout same finish with pin to cg being shorter then my first one ( both right handed ) , honey badger pin above middle finger too long , the dark code same layout and finish as the emeralds ( love it ) , the phaze 2 same layout as IQ tour emeralds at 2000 grit but it wants to read early but be long as a pearl , zero gravity pin above my middle finger while mb is on left side of thumb and love to death , and my badger the s71 hybrid cover symmetric I will be throwing it next week at box finish. So my question is the phaze 2 wants to be early but hook down lane should I raise the surface on it to a 4000 grit or polish it or have redrilled stronger. Because I am having more success with the right handed equipment then my left handed stuff.
How do they roll for you?!?
@@LuisNapoles the right handed balls react the same they would if they were left handed . The 2 IQ tour emeralds are drilled identical but the pin to cg distance is longer on one like a 4 to 5 inch while the other is 3 to 3.5 inch pin at the same grit . The dark code has been awesome for me , the zero gravity is smooth just like the dark code , the phaze 2 I had to do 1500/3000 to get a little bit of a shine look which I like , the honey badger is a very strong forward rolling ball and the badger I am in love with I can throw that ball on the burn and not have to worry while having the badger at 3000grit trucut 2 weeks ago when the oil was fresh because no one bowled on it it took off at 40 feet and took the 10 pin off clean.
I mostly use pin up, but I use mostly urethane and solids as a 2 handed bowler
Nice!
Was always taught pin up is more angular because it increases the differential and raises the RG since you are taking mass from the sides of the core making it taller so the ball does not rev up as fast… pin down is more even rolling because it lowers the rg and differential since you are removing mass from the top of the core making it rounder…
Pin up decreases RG that’s a fact
Virtually impossible physics wise…you are removing weight from the side and middle of the core leaving mass closer to the surface raising the RG… look here ua-cam.com/video/aO-KEpLAr20/v-deo.html @@LuisNapoles
ua-cam.com/video/BoPobjNcDG4/v-deo.htmlsi=pPGAU84JnypsrCMa
I use a mix, though I’ve been loving pin down quite a bit. What are the layouts used? I like 40x4.25x10 for PU and 45x4.25x70 for PD.
nice
Cool video talk tech bowling bowling ball
@scottythompson940 UNCOOL TROLLING of yet ANOTHER bowling video ..... Pin Up or Pin Down Scotty ????? Maybe they should beam you up ......
Thanks!
@@ibpsupplyman um
@@LuisNapoles your welcome
Also Mass biases has a big effect in hook and where it sits in relation to your pap.
That’s a different topic all together
Would a pin down ball still work for a player with lower rev?
It could yea
Interesting video. I usually start with a pin down older Hammer Tour ball at 1500, then progress into a shiny pin up symmetrical ball. If that isn't cutting it I''ll try a shiny asym. Maybe I need to rethink this... your thoughts?
I just go to whatever ball I think will get the job done regardless of layout ya know
I need a pin down. My pin ups run out of gas when I get them wide. Our house shot doesn’t like asym balls. Not enough oil.
Try them out!
If asymmetric ball i make a pin down for decrease hook,it is ok?
Yea I like it a lot!
My house is notorious for being dry. I drill all my balls pin down, trying to minimize early hook and playing to my strength which is straighter
There ya go!!!!!
Your backswing doesnt start coming down until youre already on your final step/sliding. It seems forced. Do you muscle your downswing to catch your arm up with your feet a lot?
Edit: your trailing leg is very high also, keeping your trialing leg lower (towards like 7 o'clock) will help a lot.
I don’t feel like I do
@@LuisNapoles for sure! Just an observation! Keep striking
High VAL vs low VAL
Yes but that’s not the biggest thing in this video
Weird actually pin down hook sooner pin up goes longer and hook
Watch closer! Especially the shot with pin down that barely got back it’s WAY cleaner and smoother down lane
after front 9 i just turned it off couldn’t watch
Should have finished it wasn’t all strikes! Plus I show all the shots regardless so some videos will have more strikes than others
It’s funny too think a grown man can’t overcome 2 ounce side weight. The ball companies are laughing. Here is a question why don’t t these ball companies sponsor series big events with prize money like they had back in the day. Who’s getting rich ? Not the bowlers 😢
I’m not sure what you’re referring to by this comment