Mikey, this is great. This video finally gave me a clear, deep understanding of the difference between what a pin down layout does vs. a short pin layout. Thank you! I really appreciate all your videos. I also love watching you throw it.
I had no idea that you were mo's son until I started to watch your channel. I'm geek about your knowledge of the game from a different but familiar prospective! Plus I've been using radical since I started bowling and I love it. Congrats on the channel! RCT for more strikes.......
Since I'm a roller more than a rev up bowler, I really like a pin down layout. It gives me the shape I'm looking for and fantastic impact on the pocket. I start the league on fresh oil with a pin down solid reactive and transition to a pin up pearl once the lanes break down so I can stay in the same area though out league play.
@@vonlee7369 No, I prefer a symmetrical weight block cause of a predictable roll. Asymmetrical weight blocks are usually to sharp on the back of the pattern for me. I seem to leave more 10 pins and back tow pins with asymmetrical than symmetrical weight blocks.
Awesome video!! Can you make another video to talk about layouts like the difference in ratio and angle sum would lead to where will the ball performs. I have a AstroPhysix drilled with 55x5x50 this result my ball will not have a continuation backend only just a snap and stop.
Great Info Mikey... it is something to think about when it comes to building and arsenal... I don’t have a pin down ball (Yet) like you mention the shape is one reason on what I’m looking for when I drill a ball... Love the video’s can’t wait to see your arsenal building vlogs... 👍🏽👌🏽👍🏽
Very nice Mikey, always good news to share bro... hey think about doing an Intel vid, pin up, pin down, vs urethane.... I keep telling people since i picked up my pin down Intel, I don't even look at my Tactic Control Urethane...thanks for the knowledge...
Would a dual angle layout of 70x5x70 cause the ball to laydown in the midlane as well or would it continue better than say a 30x4x70 layout? Also wouldn't a short angle to the VAL layout cause the ball to go forward because it is "standing up" on friction very quickly or is that only the case when combined with a small drilling angle? I am looking to clear up a little confusion on my part.
30 x 4 x 70 will lose rotation and tilt faster, due to its angle ratio, in the midlane, and be more forward when it encounters friction, allowing for the 4"pin and smaller angle sum to roll hard off the spot and have a better chance to finish. 70 x 5 x 70 will be even, but not lose tilt and rotation as fast. The 5 inch pin will soften its angle on the back, but with a larger angle sum and more likelihood to blow through the breakpoint and not finish. Both will accomplish a similar shape, but one will hit much harder, carry more, and be more forgiving... (the first one) most of the time, a 5" pin layout can be more effectively created with a 4 inch pin and better angles. Also, the first angle means nothing without the second angle, it is the ratio of the first angle to the second that determines shape (early roll, or long and snappy). And the sum of the angles tells you how long the ball will take to transition.
So while I dont mind pin down layouts on asyms, I shy away from them on symmetric core balls. What type of layout would you reccomend for someone who wants a smoother motion on a symmetric ball? I personally had a bad experience with a pin down onyx vibe and only really use it on crappy sport shots where I need the ball to roll out.
Mikey, Can you describe what the differences are, if there are any, between the motion of your pin down layout versus the motion of the early revving 10 x 4 x 30 from the Results video? Both have been described as being useful on wet dry conditions, and I’m a little hesitant to use a pin down layout because I have a fairly low rev rate. What do you think?
They have very similar shapes/ but the early rev reads friction much faster. They both start in the midlane and lay the ball down for a more forward read... but the 30x 70 is smoother and takes longer to finish than the 10 x 30.
The tendency of urethane to burn out sooner showed in the deflection. The low flare reactive gets the smooth reaction of urethane while retaining energy to drive through the rack.
Ok, please clear this up. I read that, for semi-rollers, pinup produces an earlier roll, more hook and less back end snap and pin up produces more length and back end snap. This is what I got from a Storm pin location video. But then other people say pin down is early hook smooth backend and pin up is length and snap. So which is it? For Full Rollers, which I am, pin down is early, strong and smooth and pin up is long and aggressive in the back.
To clear it up, for full rollers, you have one effective layout that can be adjusted slightly with pin length. There is no semi roller. Full roller means 0 tilt, and everything else is not full roller. The video talks about angle ratios. Ratios closer to 2:1 or 3:1 will retain tilt longer and read more angularly. Ratios closer to 1:2 will result in the core laying down and losing tilt and rotation in the midlane... but if you have ZERO tilt, the ball cant lose tilt, hence why full rollers have one effective layout. Overall, layout combined with surface and release specs all work together to create the shape.
@@BowlingScience "full rollers have one effective layout" I have to disagree on this point. As a Full Roller I have two very effective layouts, What I call Pin Down and Pin Up. Pin Down Full Roller is pin 45 degrees below center line left of vertical line (for right handers). Its length can vary from most strong at 3 3/8" from grip center (smooth/early/heavy roll and max flare) to 1.5" from grip center (length, less flare in front, heavy flare in back). The 1.5" pin length on the pin down layout is the equivalency of a 80 x 5.25 x 45 layout for a 3/4 roller. Pin Up Full Roller is putting the pin "past PAP" on negative side of ball. This also can be varied in pin length from 1 1/4" to 3 3/8". This layout also produces length with a strong continuous backend reaction. I have balls with both these layouts that I use for different conditions. Both are highly effective. I also have a third layout which is the Axis layout which puts the pin directly in the pap, this is very effective for Full Rollers desiring control and early smooth roll with strong continuation.
My point is you cant control tilt loss down the lane as there is no tilt. This SEVERELY hampers your ability to create different shapes... everything will roll forward off the spot with no remaining axis tilt, thus creating one effective shape... yes you can create weaker or stronger, but layouts can do more than just that for bowlers with more axis tilt...
@@BowlingScience Understood. Tilt is another factor that true Full Rollers don't have. I just meant, with the introduction of the 3 oz static max, now Full Rollers can have very creative layouts that produce different shapes down the lane than the old, straight, loping leverage layout does.
Max RG is the least important dynamic property of the ball. Yes, the RG of the PAP matters, as it determines the migration path of the axis. This is why layouts matter, using layouts is how you change the RG of the PAP... the RG value printed for balls is the RG of the Pin, which means little to nothing.
Wow...all of that went so far over my head, I think you need to contact NASA for airspace clearance. Can you dumb it down a bit in future videos please? Providing pictures of where the pin is on the ball will help as well.
I will be doing a longer, in depth, analysis of layouts once I can reveal the other half of my arsenal. I left the pics out, because truly it is the numbers that matter, not what it looks like with my PAP... many often get mislead by copying layouts based on where the pin is in relation to the holes (based on pics).
I understand about the Pin to pap distances being different for different bowlers, so I understand the lack of pictures. I can say that I enjoy the camera angles you use now. Keep up the good work. I'll wait for a future video for more in depth information on layouts, then come back to this one. Lol
Mikey, this is great. This video finally gave me a clear, deep understanding of the difference between what a pin down layout does vs. a short pin layout. Thank you! I really appreciate all your videos. I also love watching you throw it.
The camera angle that starts around 2:00 is the best! Your initial camera angle makes it tough to see reaction on a phone lol
I had no idea that you were mo's son until I started to watch your channel. I'm geek about your knowledge of the game from a different but familiar prospective! Plus I've been using radical since I started bowling and I love it. Congrats on the channel! RCT for more strikes.......
i have no idea as to why but pin down has always suited me well. Keep the great info coming
Since I'm a roller more than a rev up bowler, I really like a pin down layout. It gives me the shape I'm looking for and fantastic impact on the pocket. I start the league on fresh oil with a pin down solid reactive and transition to a pin up pearl once the lanes break down so I can stay in the same area though out league play.
Is your pin down asym?
@@vonlee7369 No, I prefer a symmetrical weight block cause of a predictable roll. Asymmetrical weight blocks are usually to sharp on the back of the pattern for me. I seem to leave more 10 pins and back tow pins with asymmetrical than symmetrical weight blocks.
Awesome video!! Can you make another video to talk about layouts like the difference in ratio and angle sum would lead to where will the ball performs.
I have a AstroPhysix drilled with 55x5x50 this result my ball will not have a continuation backend only just a snap and stop.
Thanks Mikey I learned a tons from this.
Great Info Mikey... it is something to think about when it comes to building and arsenal... I don’t have a pin down ball (Yet) like you mention the shape is one reason on what I’m looking for when I drill a ball... Love the video’s can’t wait to see your arsenal building vlogs... 👍🏽👌🏽👍🏽
Enjoying the videos and science behind the method. Keep them coming!
Very nice Mikey, always good news to share bro... hey think about doing an Intel vid, pin up, pin down, vs urethane.... I keep telling people since i picked up my pin down Intel, I don't even look at my Tactic Control Urethane...thanks for the knowledge...
I have a similar drilling on a prism hybrid and love the motion it creates
Would a dual angle layout of 70x5x70 cause the ball to laydown in the midlane as well or would it continue better than say a 30x4x70 layout? Also wouldn't a short angle to the VAL layout cause the ball to go forward because it is "standing up" on friction very quickly or is that only the case when combined with a small drilling angle? I am looking to clear up a little confusion on my part.
30 x 4 x 70 will lose rotation and tilt faster, due to its angle ratio, in the midlane, and be more forward when it encounters friction, allowing for the 4"pin and smaller angle sum to roll hard off the spot and have a better chance to finish. 70 x 5 x 70 will be even, but not lose tilt and rotation as fast. The 5 inch pin will soften its angle on the back, but with a larger angle sum and more likelihood to blow through the breakpoint and not finish. Both will accomplish a similar shape, but one will hit much harder, carry more, and be more forgiving... (the first one) most of the time, a 5" pin layout can be more effectively created with a 4 inch pin and better angles. Also, the first angle means nothing without the second angle, it is the ratio of the first angle to the second that determines shape (early roll, or long and snappy). And the sum of the angles tells you how long the ball will take to transition.
So while I dont mind pin down layouts on asyms, I shy away from them on symmetric core balls. What type of layout would you reccomend for someone who wants a smoother motion on a symmetric ball? I personally had a bad experience with a pin down onyx vibe and only really use it on crappy sport shots where I need the ball to roll out.
For most players, I would do a solid symmetrical ball 4 3/4 x 50 for smooth reaction.
Great analysis. I have similar results with those layouts. BTW, I like your style.
Mikey, Can you describe what the differences are, if there are any, between the motion of your pin down layout versus the motion of the early revving 10 x 4 x 30 from the Results video? Both have been described as being useful on wet dry conditions, and I’m a little hesitant to use a pin down layout because I have a fairly low rev rate. What do you think?
They have very similar shapes/ but the early rev reads friction much faster. They both start in the midlane and lay the ball down for a more forward read... but the 30x 70 is smoother and takes longer to finish than the 10 x 30.
Great Video! ... What were the drilling specs for the Zing Hyb 7 the Phantom Ure? ... Keep up the good work :-)
It's the zing from my prior vids, its 35 x 3.75 x 25. And the urethane is 50 x 3.5 x 30.
The tendency of urethane to burn out sooner showed in the deflection. The low flare reactive gets the smooth reaction of urethane while retaining energy to drive through the rack.
Lmao Mikey what’s up with them britches 😂
Great stuff Mikey!
Hey M!
Whats the difference between pin down and short pin??
Great videos buddy
Hey big fan here I was wondering if you would ever think of doing a two handed video
I am sourcing some 2 handers, should have some coming in the next few weeks!
Bowling Science thanks for the reply I just started bowling 2 handed so the videos might help
Great stuff
Drilling my Zing Hybrid tonight pin down. I was thinking 30 x 4.25 × 70.
What’s the difference between pin in palm vs pin below the bridge?
Depends on the bowler's axis point and tilt. Layouts cannot be accurately described based on relation to finger holes.
Bowling Science cool! Thanks for the insight and knowledge!
Ok, please clear this up. I read that, for semi-rollers, pinup produces an earlier roll, more hook and less back end snap and pin up produces more length and back end snap.
This is what I got from a Storm pin location video. But then other people say pin down is early hook smooth backend and pin up is length and snap.
So which is it?
For Full Rollers, which I am, pin down is early, strong and smooth and pin up is long and aggressive in the back.
To clear it up, for full rollers, you have one effective layout that can be adjusted slightly with pin length. There is no semi roller. Full roller means 0 tilt, and everything else is not full roller. The video talks about angle ratios. Ratios closer to 2:1 or 3:1 will retain tilt longer and read more angularly. Ratios closer to 1:2 will result in the core laying down and losing tilt and rotation in the midlane... but if you have ZERO tilt, the ball cant lose tilt, hence why full rollers have one effective layout. Overall, layout combined with surface and release specs all work together to create the shape.
The storm pin location chart is inaccurate. You cant accurately or repeatably control rotational axes without polar coordinates, hence dual angles.
@@BowlingScience "full rollers have one effective layout"
I have to disagree on this point. As a Full Roller I have two very effective layouts, What I call Pin Down and Pin Up.
Pin Down Full Roller is pin 45 degrees below center line left of vertical line (for right handers).
Its length can vary from most strong at 3 3/8" from grip center (smooth/early/heavy roll and max flare) to 1.5" from grip center (length, less flare in front, heavy flare in back).
The 1.5" pin length on the pin down layout is the equivalency of a 80 x 5.25 x 45 layout for a 3/4 roller.
Pin Up Full Roller is putting the pin "past PAP" on negative side of ball. This also can be varied in pin length from 1 1/4" to 3 3/8".
This layout also produces length with a strong continuous backend reaction. I have balls with both these layouts that I use for different conditions. Both are highly effective.
I also have a third layout which is the Axis layout which puts the pin directly in the pap, this is very effective for Full Rollers desiring control and early smooth roll with strong continuation.
My point is you cant control tilt loss down the lane as there is no tilt. This SEVERELY hampers your ability to create different shapes... everything will roll forward off the spot with no remaining axis tilt, thus creating one effective shape... yes you can create weaker or stronger, but layouts can do more than just that for bowlers with more axis tilt...
@@BowlingScience Understood. Tilt is another factor that true Full Rollers don't have. I just meant, with the introduction of the 3 oz static max, now Full Rollers can have very creative layouts that produce different shapes down the lane than the old, straight, loping leverage layout does.
All that matters is RG and the friction of the cover.
Max RG is the least important dynamic property of the ball. Yes, the RG of the PAP matters, as it determines the migration path of the axis. This is why layouts matter, using layouts is how you change the RG of the PAP... the RG value printed for balls is the RG of the Pin, which means little to nothing.
@@BowlingScience RG differential and tracking flare have no effect on the motion of a bowling ball.
epiphoney The differentials will define the axis migration of the PAP so it will definitely affect the balls motion.
Steven Freshour That’s a myth.
Can we get a video of your broken wrist technique? I know ya dad did one back in the day with you in it, but we need a “2020” version....
March will bring more coaching vids!
Bowling Science appreciate it! 👏🏽
Pin positions are not important if it’s close to a good layout
Wow...all of that went so far over my head, I think you need to contact NASA for airspace clearance.
Can you dumb it down a bit in future videos please? Providing pictures of where the pin is on the ball will help as well.
I will be doing a longer, in depth, analysis of layouts once I can reveal the other half of my arsenal. I left the pics out, because truly it is the numbers that matter, not what it looks like with my PAP... many often get mislead by copying layouts based on where the pin is in relation to the holes (based on pics).
I hope I didnt leave anyone out with this quick overview... thanks for the feedback! I always am looking to improve :)
I understand about the Pin to pap distances being different for different bowlers, so I understand the lack of pictures.
I can say that I enjoy the camera angles you use now. Keep up the good work. I'll wait for a future video for more in depth information on layouts, then come back to this one. Lol
@@charlieodom9107 I appreciate the support and continued viewership! Can't wait to do a big breakdown video about layouts!
@@BowlingScience Man, you're doing an outstanding job of explaining and showing these concepts.
Keep it up!