The other day I overheard some lady at Farm & Fleet declare to her little posse that "A proper and well-trained horse doesn't need a bit in his mouth!" and some other comment about "Any half-decent rider shouldn't be using a bit." 🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀ ummm...yeah...I can't...like I wouldn't even know how to start to respond to that. I don't know, but I'd be willing to bet she rides in a treeless saddle too
Thanks for the time and research you put into learning the physics of these classic bits. I love your laid back teaching style and how present with logic. I think the hardest thing for anyone to learn is to slow their hands down and to reward the smallest try.
Thank you . No doubt slowing down is the hard part. Once you get into one of these bits you feel like a rock star and want to motor on but a Horseman needs to slow down.
One center hung vs another can be faster or slower based in the cheek length. The one with shorter cheeks will have less leverage but lift the spoon faster and therefore signal faster
Bret this is good information. Some of my thoughts from "tractor and windshield time" When you move the mouthpiece from center hung to forward hung,so there is not a straight line from purchase to bit shank/rein ring you create a "compound lever" rather than a simple 1st second or 3rd degree lever which is based on a straight fulcrum. A few examples of the compound lever are the scale, train brakes, and a common type of nail clippers. Another one it the jaw on a t-post puller where it puts pressure on both sides of the t post. Which AS YOU MENTIONED is NOT the intent of a spade bit. As you mentioned the loose jaw delays the engagement, hence the pre signal. the purchases move, and the horse feels the crown piece tighten first . I think Balance and weight distribution on the cheek has a lot to do with "speed of release" The Santa Barbara with weight on the back of the bit is like the weights on the beam of the balance scale . Leverage is just a ratio of the length of the purchase to the length of the shank. While a longer shank might have more leverage when the curb strap engages , it does have to travel father to move the purchases up to engage the curb. So in theory a longer shanked bit is more forgiving from the standpoint of it has more travel before engaging the compound lever. I don't have any Physics credentials, but i've broken a few irrigating shovels prying out Ditch boards, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night
Right off the bat, I’m looking at your bookshelf. The Principals of Horseshoeing II, by Doug Butler is a classic to say the least!! One of the best literatures on shoeing ever produced! I used it to teach Farrier Science in Colorado. I had the great fortune in working with Doug and watching his expertise!
I'm not clear what the debate is about. Talking "speed" when the issue is simply a ratio (ratio of purchase to shank) is kind of weird, I agree. But is that what DD does? I've watched his videos multiple times, but it's been years. Speed makes sense if it's about the amount of play (wiggle) in a bit. Whether that has anything to do with whether it's forward hung or center hung, IDK. Seems to me it would have more to do with whether the mouthpiece attachment to the cheek is solid or hinged (like a Sliester).
@@epona9166 No I didn't think you were arguing I was just not in the mood to answer a complex question. You have it right about the speed, it is faster if it is not hinged. A forward hung bit is hinged and a center hung is not. A few people have tried to reinvent the wheel and hinge a center hung but it doesn't work very well. Also the straiter the cheek (lever) the faster the bit is so a Las Crusas or Arizona cheek is faster than a Santa Barbra or 7 cheek.
Good info... it takes a lot of life experience to discuss this topic. It's also interesting how at the end of the day, it is still what the horse likes, and that will make you shake your head sometimes.
It sounds like the real distinction is loose vs solid mouth rather than center vs forward hung. Center vs forward hung is probably muddling the physics discussion because folks will focus on the position of the axis of rotation which probably doesn’t matter much. If there were a solid mouth forward hung bit, there wouldn’t be any added delay to the signal; the bit would just hang at a different angle but engage at the same time as a solid mouth center hung bit. Because if the curb is properly adjusted, gravity will equalize the difference, and neither has any added delay. I could be wrong. I’ve also never understood why folks say that a swept back cheekpiece is inherently slower… I would think that once you took the slack out, it would be the same, though the balance of weight is different.
I have never seen a solid forward hung that worked very good and the only reason I think a swept back shank is slower is because one usually adjusts the curb to be slower. I am wrong all the time but Im not afraid of saying.
Thanks, I really enjoyed this video and learned a lot about how spade bits function. Why don't you consider the time between starting the application of pressure on a curb bit to the point where the curb chain makes contact a "signal"?
In a sence all bits give a signal. And on a curb bit the time between engagement and the actual pressure is a signal of sorts. Signal bits are just called signal bits while other bits are called curb or leverage bits. I suppose it is because of the multiple signals and the nuance of the tool.
Great video. I am not a cowboy so how I look at bits is slightly different than how a working cowboy might. We train "Shakey Tails" so we are not breed specific although we like our Paso's the best. We ride inside leg to outside rein to neck rein our horses. That being said, those fast, fixed mouth bits tend to work the best for that style of riding. It would be fun to do a little bit more thinking about bits. There is so much that we can all share and learn from earth other. Thank you for sharing this video with us.
If you are rebutting the video and portion that I think you are. You are comparing two different types of bits and, as you say, are comparing apples to oranges. Both yours and his videos provide correct information, but you are focusing on where the mouthpiece connects, he focuses only on center connected bits. I’m not sure how professional it is to be calling out another trainer for something that differs from the correction.
Its unfortunate that I was so clumsy in my wording. This rebuttal is based on a conversation he and I had not so much on his video. I agree that most of his video is correctish but in the other conversation he said that a center hung spade is slower than a forward hung spade and I was trying to explain why that is wrong. Daniel does not understand how spade bits work and therefore should not comment about them but rather ask about them. If you are a fan of his work watch some of his bitting videos again and you will find his physics are a little off.
@A Davis this was a super informative video, thanks for sharing. I’m curious about how you said the Center hung bits only work with certain mouthpieces. I was in the process of getting a bit built and it was going to be a US half breed mouth, Center hung on, with a cheek piece that has a bit of a sweep to it. Would this work? Would it be a fast bit? Could you elaborate a little on what works with a Center hand vs the forward hang? Thank you!
First of all. you are referencing two completely different things here. You are confusing the speed at which the bit moves from its designed leverage ratio and how different leverage ratios affect the speed of the bit, to how a bit is with build using solid shanks vs hinged shanks and how wear and shank hinge play can affect what you're referring to as speed is really nothing more than play or maybe you could consider it pre-signal if you want to stretch it that far. Your rebuttal is incorrect and flawed from both an engineering and a physics standpoint and the information presented by the OP is in fact correct.
Ok I re watched the video because we made it some time ago and I couldn't remember what it was about. I will be the first to say that I was pretty clumsy in my explanation and I may have said it in a way that you didn't understand but I was not wrong about speed and leverage and how it all works. I may not be a great teacher and I am willing to admit that but I have my story strait and I will try to think of it in a way that people who have not been riding spade bit horses most of there life can understand it. Thank you so much for your comment, I dont understand it but it has opened my eyes to the fact that I need to find a better way to say all this.
Every bit is not comfortable to every horse. So, finding the most comfortable bit for your horse is the quest.After that I believe, the hands on the reins is everything. Thanks Bret for clearing that up . Great video. 😊
I am a novice horseman. I have watched a number of items to learn more about bits. I am begining to understand the mechanics but still have no idea what bit to use on what horse. I am an old guy (73) just getting into horses so I will not be breaking any colts. I will only be interested in old man broke horses, trail riding and maybe in the future some light cow work. I would like to understand more about how and why I would choose one bit over another for a given horse. I suspect what I am using them for has a great deal of impact but beyond that what are the considerations. Would you always use the same bit on a older horse? Anyway, maybe you can point me in a direction to get more information on this topic. Steve Kepple
Steve I use a lot of different bits for a lot of different horses and work. I think you should talk to whoever you get the horse from about what bit to use. I have found that a low port on a 7 shank works pretty good for nearly every horse in nearly every job
None of those leverage or compression bits should be used until the horse has been ridden 4 times per week for 10 years. Lets get the principle of bend understood and implemented first. people think they should use a compression bit too soon.
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArt A buddy of mine had a high compression engine in his '65 Dodge in school, but I don't think he'd been driving it anywhere near 10 years 🤔🤔🤔
The other day I overheard some lady at Farm & Fleet declare to her little posse that "A proper and well-trained horse doesn't need a bit in his mouth!" and some other comment about "Any half-decent rider shouldn't be using a bit." 🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀ ummm...yeah...I can't...like I wouldn't even know how to start to respond to that. I don't know, but I'd be willing to bet she rides in a treeless saddle too
people are silly
Thanks for the time and research you put into learning the physics of these classic bits. I love your laid back teaching style and how present with logic. I think the hardest thing for anyone to learn is to slow their hands down and to reward the smallest try.
Thank you . No doubt slowing down is the hard part. Once you get into one of these bits you feel like a rock star and want to motor on but a Horseman needs to slow down.
One center hung vs another can be faster or slower based in the cheek length. The one with shorter cheeks will have less leverage but lift the spoon faster and therefore signal faster
like virtual therapy!
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArt I sure would like to come out and learn from you. Let me know if you ever need a hand. I'll work for knowledge.
@@lorenhughes5005 OK.
Great video!! Thank you for sharing!
Thank you Amos
Bret this is good information. Some of my thoughts from "tractor and windshield time" When you move the mouthpiece from center hung to forward hung,so there is not a straight line from purchase to bit shank/rein ring you create a "compound lever" rather than a simple 1st second or 3rd degree lever which is based on a straight fulcrum. A few examples of the compound lever are the scale, train brakes, and a common type of nail clippers. Another one it the jaw on a t-post puller where it puts pressure on both sides of the t post. Which AS YOU MENTIONED is NOT the intent of a spade bit. As you mentioned the loose jaw delays the engagement, hence the pre signal. the purchases move, and the horse feels the crown piece tighten first . I think Balance and weight distribution on the cheek has a lot to do with "speed of release" The Santa Barbara with weight on the back of the bit is like the weights on the beam of the balance scale . Leverage is just a ratio of the length of the purchase to the length of the shank. While a longer shank might have more leverage when the curb strap engages , it does have to travel father to move the purchases up to engage the curb. So in theory a longer shanked bit is more forgiving from the standpoint of it has more travel before engaging the compound lever. I don't have any Physics credentials, but i've broken a few irrigating shovels prying out Ditch boards, and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night
lol that is to funny. And I think everyone knows more about physics than I do, Im just a guy with a UA-cam channel that aint afraid to talk about it
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArt You have bitted more horses and have much more more applied knowledge than I. Keep up the good work because you make me think.
Right off the bat, I’m looking at your bookshelf. The Principals of Horseshoeing II, by Doug Butler is a classic to say the least!!
One of the best literatures on shoeing ever produced! I used it to teach Farrier Science in Colorado. I had the great fortune in working with Doug and watching his expertise!
I learned a lot from that book. I really should give it back to the guy I borrowed it from 18 years ago
I'm not clear what the debate is about. Talking "speed" when the issue is simply a ratio (ratio of purchase to shank) is kind of weird, I agree. But is that what DD does? I've watched his videos multiple times, but it's been years. Speed makes sense if it's about the amount of play (wiggle) in a bit. Whether that has anything to do with whether it's forward hung or center hung, IDK. Seems to me it would have more to do with whether the mouthpiece attachment to the cheek is solid or hinged (like a Sliester).
I like to answer all these questions but im drunk and im sad so I won't be graceful. If you really want to know, call me. 541-944-3658.
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArt Bret if you think there’s an argument there, I think I’ll pass and just read some more of your book. Feel better.
@@epona9166 No I didn't think you were arguing I was just not in the mood to answer a complex question. You have it right about the speed, it is faster if it is not hinged. A forward hung bit is hinged and a center hung is not. A few people have tried to reinvent the wheel and hinge a center hung but it doesn't work very well. Also the straiter the cheek (lever) the faster the bit is so a Las Crusas or Arizona cheek is faster than a Santa Barbra or 7 cheek.
Great information
thank you
Good info... it takes a lot of life experience to discuss this topic. It's also interesting how at the end of the day, it is still what the horse likes, and that will make you shake your head sometimes.
A horse likes any bit he can run through
It sounds like the real distinction is loose vs solid mouth rather than center vs forward hung. Center vs forward hung is probably muddling the physics discussion because folks will focus on the position of the axis of rotation which probably doesn’t matter much. If there were a solid mouth forward hung bit, there wouldn’t be any added delay to the signal; the bit would just hang at a different angle but engage at the same time as a solid mouth center hung bit. Because if the curb is properly adjusted, gravity will equalize the difference, and neither has any added delay. I could be wrong. I’ve also never understood why folks say that a swept back cheekpiece is inherently slower… I would think that once you took the slack out, it would be the same, though the balance of weight is different.
I have never seen a solid forward hung that worked very good and the only reason I think a swept back shank is slower is because one usually adjusts the curb to be slower. I am wrong all the time but Im not afraid of saying.
Nicely Explained
Dude ✅✅👍👍for being honest much respect
only way I can be
Thanks, I really enjoyed this video and learned a lot about how spade bits function. Why don't you consider the time between starting the application of pressure on a curb bit to the point where the curb chain makes contact a "signal"?
In a sence all bits give a signal. And on a curb bit the time between engagement and the actual pressure is a signal of sorts. Signal bits are just called signal bits while other bits are called curb or leverage bits. I suppose it is because of the multiple signals and the nuance of the tool.
Great video.
I am not a cowboy so how I look at bits is slightly different than how a working cowboy might. We train "Shakey Tails" so we are not breed specific although we like our Paso's the best.
We ride inside leg to outside rein to neck rein our horses. That being said, those fast, fixed mouth bits tend to work the best for that style of riding.
It would be fun to do a little bit more thinking about bits. There is so much that we can all share and learn from earth other.
Thank you for sharing this video with us.
you bet, glad you liked it
If you are rebutting the video and portion that I think you are. You are comparing two different types of bits and, as you say, are comparing apples to oranges. Both yours and his videos provide correct information, but you are focusing on where the mouthpiece connects, he focuses only on center connected bits. I’m not sure how professional it is to be calling out another trainer for something that differs from the correction.
Its unfortunate that I was so clumsy in my wording. This rebuttal is based on a conversation he and I had not so much on his video. I agree that most of his video is correctish but in the other conversation he said that a center hung spade is slower than a forward hung spade and I was trying to explain why that is wrong. Daniel does not understand how spade bits work and therefore should not comment about them but rather ask about them. If you are a fan of his work watch some of his bitting videos again and you will find his physics are a little off.
@A Davis this was a super informative video, thanks for sharing. I’m curious about how you said the Center hung bits only work with certain mouthpieces. I was in the process of getting a bit built and it was going to be a US half breed mouth, Center hung on, with a cheek piece that has a bit of a sweep to it. Would this work? Would it be a fast bit? Could you elaborate a little on what works with a Center hand vs the forward hang? Thank you!
Yes that will work and yes it will be fast
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArt would a Fresno cheek forward hung be slower? Even though it’s a fairly straight shank?
Nevermind, answered my own question with one of your other videos 😊
Good stuff! Like most opinions I pounder over its best to chew the meat and spit out the bones.
true dat
First of all. you are referencing two completely different things here. You are confusing the speed at which the bit moves from its designed leverage ratio and how different leverage ratios affect the speed of the bit, to how a bit is with build using solid shanks vs hinged shanks and how wear and shank hinge play can affect what you're referring to as speed is really nothing more than play or maybe you could consider it pre-signal if you want to stretch it that far. Your rebuttal is incorrect and flawed from both an engineering and a physics standpoint and the information presented by the OP is in fact correct.
Who the heck is the OP?
Ok I re watched the video because we made it some time ago and I couldn't remember what it was about. I will be the first to say that I was pretty clumsy in my explanation and I may have said it in a way that you didn't understand but I was not wrong about speed and leverage and how it all works. I may not be a great teacher and I am willing to admit that but I have my story strait and I will try to think of it in a way that people who have not been riding spade bit horses most of there life can understand it. Thank you so much for your comment, I dont understand it but it has opened my eyes to the fact that I need to find a better way to say all this.
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArtOP simply means original poster, in this case I'm sure he meant Daniel Dauphin.
thank you
@@southernforestgypsy
Every bit is not comfortable to every horse. So, finding the most comfortable bit for your horse is the quest.After that I believe, the hands on the reins is everything. Thanks Bret for clearing that up . Great video. 😊
I am a novice horseman. I have watched a number of items to learn more about bits. I am begining to understand the mechanics but still have no idea what bit to use on what horse. I am an old guy (73) just getting into horses so I will not be breaking any colts. I will only be interested in old man broke horses, trail riding and maybe in the future some light cow work. I would like to understand more about how and why I would choose one bit over another for a given horse. I suspect what I am using them for has a great deal of impact but beyond that what are the considerations. Would you always use the same bit on a older horse? Anyway, maybe you can point me in a direction to get more information on this topic. Steve Kepple
Steve I use a lot of different bits for a lot of different horses and work. I think you should talk to whoever you get the horse from about what bit to use. I have found that a low port on a 7 shank works pretty good for nearly every horse in nearly every job
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArt thanks
None of those leverage or compression bits should be used until the horse has been ridden 4 times per week for 10 years. Lets get the principle of bend understood and implemented first. people think they should use a compression bit too soon.
Im having a hard time deciding if this is a joke or not. If it is it is funny. If it isn't it is funny
@@HorsemanshipAsAnArt A buddy of mine had a high compression engine in his '65 Dodge in school, but I don't think he'd been driving it anywhere near 10 years 🤔🤔🤔
@@jeffshimek5477 What ?
oh I get it
John Jacobs what in the literal F are you trying to pass off as knowledge here?..