Bismarck - Avoid Over-reliance On Secondaries [209k damage]
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- Опубліковано 10 лис 2016
- I posted this commentary in response to the umpteenth Bismarck I have seen charge in, showing full broadsides to everyone and expecting the secondaries to solve all problems for him. They are a tool. Yes, a strong tool, but ultimately it's just one of the multiple features the Battleship itself has, and should be treated as such.
- Ігри
Having so much fun in this ship...Your Bismarck series has been very helpful, thanks!
Now I'm not denying that you can't have games where the secondaries do a lot of work, I'm just saying that you shouldn't expect it or rely on it, as it's entirely guided by RNG and is just as likely to let you down as reward you. The point of this game was to show how much more there is to the ship and how little the secondaries actually contributed to the damage and the result.
Which captain build are u using on this video? I think isn't manual secondaries control, maybe you changed for Concealment Expert?
+benjismudge No improved accuracy is based on dispersion and sigma value is the true god dispersion don't make better shoots just instead shoots dispersion goes from 300m to 270m yay. Sigma value isn't in that it's the true dispersion better sigma = more acvurate and germans have the worst. So don't
If you have to deal with a always bow in BB, NC for example in sec range, you can burn them to death with HE+secondaries. The additional good thing is, what i ve often, they start thinking: "Hm, its a HE-noob i can show broadside and turn." And then AP smashes him apart. Its possible with 25 seconds reload :)
But i agree, showing broadside only for secondaries is bullshit, you take much more for what you deal !
Flamu Maybe those Bismarck players wouldn't show their broadsides if their ship actually had a citadel to hit. Not having a citadel encourages players to be retards.
Do you think that a secondarie build on a yamato is good ??? And great video as always :-)
cause when u YOLO, u meet mostly cruisers and DDS and the secondaries shred them
yeah dont rely ont hem, but build the bismarck entirely for the secondaries and you can outplay tier 10s just by coming within 10km and sailing at them...
Nice video on how to BB in general.
Battleships need to man up, charge forward and tank damage; that's also something important that most BaBies in random battles don't do, instead preferring to sit back and take pot shots (I don't even refer to it as sniping; too much RNG involved).
It pains me when enemy is heavily contesting caps and only squishy cruisers are trying to defend while eating 100+ citadels while full HP battleships (with 4+ heals) are camping at base.
I know how you feel. I'm mostly a DD main but I play cruisers a lot. The lackluster BB play I see causes me to be way to aggressive when playing a BB. I've learned the hard way that just rushing in does the team no good. I still am 10X more aggressive than most BB players but I am learning when and where to push. The 3 things I NEVER do in a BB is snipe from spawn or run over to a map edge. I try to stay central to the battle, be a strong prescence, and tank dmg to free up my high DPM teammates. I am NOT a great BB captain but making it to the top half of the leaderboard just isn't that hard. How any BB main manages to score near the bottom is a total head-scratcher.
Also pissed me off as a "BaBy" main, when I push a cap hard and cruisers just sit back behind islands and spam he.
wow i have been grinding this ship for a year and I die first almost every game, it is the hardest ship to play, i wish i had games like you , Thanks for all the great vids
Do not push early. Have a strong presence but do not push anywhere that you are not clear on what to expect. I had the same problem with my Bismarck starting out and I have learned to pick and choose when to be aggresive. I find the BB playstyle to be very nuanced. It doesn't take much skill to be average, but the climb from there to "good" is steep and heavily reliant on timing and positioning. Try being a little more patient and map-aware and see how you do.
Das Bat
Your secondaries might have had become more important, if there were 4 or even 5 enemy DD's, a common sight these days, instead of just 2. Hydro and the overwhelming secondaries are scaring off almost every DD driver, because they cn shred DD's into pieces.
So you are not entirely right. Its the matchmaking that pretty much decides on how useful the secondaries of the Bismarck are in certain matches. And i'm not speaking about pure damage. I'm speaking about the tactical potential.
You make a good point. People learn over time. Many DD's now avoid close Bismarck encounters and I've seen a drop in how effective my secondaries are. I just switched to Concealment Expert yesterday and am finding that skill coming into play much more often than Man.2nd. In fact I am ambushing more DD's now and all it takes is a few 2ndary rounds for them to scatter in a panic. They can't tell my dispersion sucks!
not anymore baby. I hadn't played since the Tirpitz was a new ship and picked up the game again a few months ago. i love the Bis, but the secondaries really don't do much more than prevent DDs yoloing you. they are useless against DDs beyond 7km.
So the question asrises: Do you prefer the module slot n2 for main accuracy or for secondary range?
How do you get all that ship information on detected ships like that? Mod? I need that!
i agree with you ... secondaries are just a bonus
Do you mind if you tell us what're your Bismarck's upgrades and its captain skills?
Bismarck upgrades: Main Battery,Secondary modification,repair,repair,target acquisition
commander: Basic survivability,expert marksman,superintendent,Advanced firing training,Manual Secondaries
That should be his setup
yes, the new mexico is near impossible to citadel especially in tirpitz/bismarck
Having absolutely terrible hull plating makes that kind of irrelevant, just about anything with at least 16 inch guns will fairly consistently hit it for 10K or more so one way or another against t8 BBs it's just a floating pile of scrap metal.
is that build you recommended in your original Bismarck video your personal setup? I could never quite tell if that was supposed to be a gimmick build or if you thought it was actually competitive
Secondary build is just so much fun
Obviously Flamu you're a great player, and I can see what you're able to do in the Bismarck, but do you think this holds up now, a year and a half later? I see you were able to fire in smoke without being detected even though enemies were only 8km away. Also, I don't know how it was back then but nowadays about 80% of my games in Bismarck i am bottom tier and dropped in T10 games, where I feel like the Bismarck is next to useless.
Playing Bismarck-class Dreadnoughts are fun and they have this massive threat when the ship is top tier. This ship was built to brawl and though her resilience and endurance isn't fully reflected from the real life Bismarck-class, they are still a tough nut to crack and for smaller ships, its an utter freaking nightmare from 11.3km. However, with the current meta of getting slam dunked into Tier 9 and 10 games by a significant margin, only having 8 15" guns and an embarrassing torpedo belt, this ship struggles. I've seen a Worcester utterly humiliate a Yamato by itself and went ahead and made the Bismarck into mince meat from behind an island and other HE spamming queballs behind islands make other battleships look like sheets of paper with the incredible DAKA and IFHE pens. The Des Moines was one thing but nowadays with the inclusion of the advanced Akizuki gunboats "Kitakaze" and "Harugumo" having 32mm pen with IFHE on the *100mm pop pop* guns, more HE threats and torpedoes, ships like the Bismarck struggle to make use of her strengths.
Her main guns are also an issue due to the so-called "German Dispersion" in the game and further hurts the Bismarck from having a strong chance in fighting back at longer range. Hell, people tell me that they double citadel'd me from 22km! Yes, its possible because I slam dunked 3 citadels in a single salvo to a Fredereich der Grosser with the Yamato's full broadside. But Bismarcks have problems just hitting targets at long range, let alone citadels since German AP are lighter shells and start dragging after a certain distance or flight time. This of course means the penetration suffers greater than most other battleships like the super-heavy AP shells from the Americans.
Imo, tier 8 ships really do need to stop getting into massive tier 10 games. I mean, I don't mind entering a tier 9 game in the Bismarck with maybe ONE or TWO tier 10s. But when you start a battle and your loading screen pops up with 5 fuckin' tier 10 battleships, 3 tier 10 destroyers and the one poor bastard cruiser who's tier 8, that's when it gets unfair. Certainly not impossible to play the fearsome Bisko no but the N. Carolina has the edge in tier 10 games over the Bismarck. Hell, even the Amagi fares better because her guns are more accurate, has more of them, 406s over the 380s and I find Amagi-class ships harder to pen than Bismarcks because of her weaker upper belt and a giant forehead of a superstructure that screams XP Pinata.
-And the Minotaurs-
THANK YOU! this pretty much confirms my theory that Bismarck is probably one of the worst if not THE worst T8 BB to have in a T10 game. And like you said, only 8 380mm guns with german ''accuracy'' (which is ludicrous historically, but hey it's a game i guess) means you won't hit anything from far away, and when you want to close in on the enemies in a T10 game.... well good luck with all the HE spam.
Don't get me wrong I think it's a fun ship and speccing for secondaries is a blast, but I feel like the days that she was top tier battleship for her tier are gone.
OMG i thought it was ME. Tier 10 games suck in general, but when you're driving the Bismarck it becomes fucking terrible.
flamu how doe's the dispersion compare with the tirptz i much prefer my gneisenau to my tirptz even with less guns it just hits shit as to the secondaries iv'e only ever seen it as bug spray for DD's
what program you use to record ?
I let my secondaries devastate and burn down a Fuso once, while I was then able to focus on a Nagato instead. Just a couple main battery rounds into the Fuso for good measure and he was basically done. It's like having a Phoenix or an Omaha strapped to the side of the ship, only they don't get citadelled and sunk. They are a bonus though....a very, Very potent bonus...
is it worth getting the 5th pt secondary skill? or should I go with CE instead?
It is very much worth it. Here, he did very little damage with them despite 200+ hits because they hit mostly BBs, but they do very good damage against CAs and DDs.
Is more worth to go for secondaries if you wanna go in like a boss
CE just let u be sneaky
I used to go full "berserker" build on mine but with the HE spamming UK BB's so common nowI've dropped Man.2nd in favor of Conc.Exp. My secondary usage comes into play periodically while improved concealment can be a factor during most of a match. I've noticed I now have extra time/space to get into a strong position, and being able to close more distance before firing has increased my dmg output. I really liked Man.2nd but I can contribute more to a team win with Concealment Expert. (and RNG is not a factor in it)
Das Bat
true words this time.
Agreed secondaries are a bonus otherwise you play it exactly like Tirpitz where you trade torps for secondary range and hydro which ultimately makes Bismarck bettet because it can rush caps and even spot DDs in some close range brawls. Also don't discount that if DD gets hit by random secondary shell it takes good chunk out of him making it worth it everytime. Also while brawling with cruisers it's handy not having to wait for reload if he has few HP left and you don't have to waste another salvo.
15-9km is sweet spot to stay at.
I'd go so far as to say 15-7km is the sweet spot for the Bismarck. It's close enough to let the secondaries get optimal target saturation, and far away enough to be outside torpedo range of most opponents, especially German BBs and CAs. At that range, it is even surprisingly easy to delete DDs with a combination of secondaries disabling them and setting fires and the main guns taking off big chunks of their HP even with AP loaded. These days I only switch to HE in my Bismarck when I'm certain I *only* have to face DDs, e.g. during clean-up.
As Flamu said, angling between shots is paramount. I've faced off 1v1 vs. opposing Bismarcks that went into the fight with 10k more HP than me, and I came out victorious with health to spare because they constantly overangled between salvoes.
The Bismarck can tank like a boss, and you should use your HP pool to draw fire away from your squishier teammates, especially in ranked. A game in which I survive and don't get Dreadnought is an odd one out. ;)
As for the secondaries, you should obviously maximise fire chance by equipping both the Arsonist and the Witherer flag at all times (if available). It can make the difference in tight encounters. The skill you have to get a feel for is how not to overextend yourself and (as Flamu said) always have an exit strategy so you can heal back up.
My best Bismarck game was also 209k damage, but nearly 49k of those were from secondaries and fires. Got two Close Quarters Combat achievements (both against BBs lol), Confederate, Kraken and a whopping 3502 base xp. :D Still my best overall score so far.
13 - 1 km because turtle back armor ^^
What mods are you running?
Someone make a counter of Flamu using "ultimately" in his videos...
Dude, seriously? The guy is the closest thing to a professor among the WOWS CC's and you want to focus on word usage? Take the free education Flamu is providing and learn from it. If you cannot find it in you to show some gratitude then at least shut the fuck up.
Have five point captain with manual secondaries. I've done massive damage, double strikes and several close quarters medals. I have to disagree that the secondaries have minimal effect. Also it's a powerful deterrent to DDs and cruisers that run like hell when they find themselves within 10km range of the golden shower of HE. Fantastic ship, consistently top the board and average 120k per battle. Love it.
The scare factor because of Tirpitz torps or Bismark secondaries is real.
People don't wanna be near you and you can use that and force the opponents to play a certain way.
I would put Tirpitz >Amagi and Amagi> Bismarck because Amagi is the strongest counter to the BM but the Tirp only needs to get close to torp her. One of the few occations I put Tirpitz > BM. But your poitn stands!
I'll take Bismarck over any tier 8 boat any day in a tier 9-10 battle. Secondaries + hydro are also golden for when you meet multiple DDs, Amagi and Derpitz would just get melted. NC could RNG a dd to death, but that's still RNG. I've lost count how many times my secondaries have knocked out propulsion or torp tubes... it's HE >_> Secondaries also account for 15-30% damage, depending on how passive the enemy team is. Plus the fairly decent AA... seeing how more frequent I see tier 9 CVs, I much prefer the Bismarck's AA
DaKillerChipmunk amagi can gibb you 20k damage from 15km:D
So can a Bismarck. Then then I turn bow on, Amagi runs away and I wreck anyone who isn't running away. Or, depending on the map, i'll take cover behind an island and the Amagi curses himself because he let me drive him so far from the action.
Are you running manual secondaries for the 5 point skill?
Victor Sung probably
Victor Sung If you want to know if a battleship running manual 2ndaries or not, watch their 2ndaries, if the enemy in range ( Bismarck usually about 10km with 2ndaries build) and they are shooting, he's not have manual, if it's not shooting, and only shoot when clicking, well, you know the answer. ;)
Victor Sung And in this clip, Flamu Bismarck 2ndaries begin shooting as soon as enemy in range, so he dont have manual, when you have manual skill, you have to choose target yourself for the 2ndaries.
One of the reasons why people try to maximize their secondaries is the ongoing Arpeggio-mission, which requires 500 secondary battery hits. But still not a good way to utilize the tankiness of the Bismarck.
Kolmiajuri i literally did that mission in 2 games. 383 hit in the first one.
boa parceiro gosto de ver seus videos so bem estrategicos!!!brasil :) nick fiao serve europa!!!
can i get the rng dispersion that you get TwT
Secondaries are like other perks, they give 5-10% extra damage, not unlike faster torpedo reload, faster turret turn, better AA and so on. All in all they can be decisive, but only as opposed to not having the perks.
Meanwhile the console gets better secondaries because we have we have commander perks that gives secondaries grouping and dispersion buffs, and Even a 30 seconds consumables that make them lasers, we only lack manual secondaries for now, but they are going to add that eventually.
in my matches I see Bismarcks behind NC and Amagi, nowhere near of secondary gun range. That 10km range is kinda sweet spot for bismarck, engage and disengage, but havent seen that tactic used my anyone. BBs should support the team with their firepower, but I see more and more that BBs just stay at range and team loses, none caps neither pushes with anyone to anywhere. Yesterday I pushed with Tirpitz straight through capzone and suprised enemy team with their pants down and sank cruiser and their carrier. We won that match. Ofc I was sank too, but I wish I could see more actions like I did. If you need to sacrifice you need to do it well.
I think this is a huge part of why the Bismarck has such a high win rate overall. Maybe it's not all that much more powerful than the other two, but the secondaries change how people play it for the better. The secondaries make people more likely to close distance, tank damage, and contest caps. The near immunity to citadels also makes it more forgiving novice players.
Bismarck
More than a refugee
a sexy intro as always
Where can I download the smokescreen mod?
jewwy it's a setting, you don't need a mod for iy
you see those questions every time, there are so many people who don't know about the smokescreen rings, damage counter, etc.
In my opinion the alternate battle interface should be turned on by dafault with the option to turn it off for people with weak systems.
Flamu what would you have done if you spotted a nice torp spread coming at you while you stood still in the smoke, showing a nice broadside to the enemies. I guess you wouldnt be able to speed up enough in the time remaining before the torps would have arrived you. Would Hydro have saved you?
PjodII yea cause german hydro is superpowerful
I know that but Torp aquisition range is "only" close to 4km. And a Bismarck wont speed up that fast i assume.
PjodII don't show full broadside even in smoke lel
9:31 ... I am going to get you...
I dont think you are directly talking towards me. Im not amazing, but im fully aware of what I am doing, and the risks im taking. And I dont feel bad for it. Because afterall, "it's just a game". And the Bismarck is by far the funniest ship to play.
So I probably too many times than what I would like to admit, try and get in too close, and maybe show too much broadside simply so I can get all my secondaries to open fire. And while I know it might not massivly increase my damage output. And maybe even decrease it if I take too much damage doing it. It's fun as hell, and while not optimal. I still manage to rack up some pretty high damage numbers. And I would like to imagine whoever im selecting as my secondary target. Must be going through hell while constantly getting hit by shells.
So although it might not be something I would do in a ranked match. I random battles you will definitely see me stuck in there blazing shells at everybody that dares come near me.
im just going to play it like my scharnhorst just with out getting right up in there cause no torps
Alexander Bakker
^_^
"It's just a game" is far too often used as the mating cry for people who make no attempt to play intelligently and consequently throw the game for their team. Don't forget that there are 11 other people depending on you to play semi competently, and most of them would prefer to win. Playing stupid in a team game because it's "fun" for you is just selfishness. I wish people who just play for "fun", ie. with no regard for their team, would stick to single player games.
My GK has 11.6 secondary range and can do 90k damage in a battle with IFHE and adrenaline rush active :)
i use my secondaries for killing DDs mostly, with ifhe cos they shater otherwise.
When I do overpens in my Bismarck they are like 1080 or something so those 2 overpens at 5:29 for 6k? I wish.
Miadous I did an overpen with my Bayern and it did 4k damage. One overpen.
its probaly like a longer overpen where it goes trough more part of the ship.. but yeah better a overpen for 1080 then a 0 damage pen, wich i find rediculous
The detailed shell notifications where it tells you how the shell landed are horribly off a lot of the time. Plenty of time it will register a full pen and do zero or overpen damage.
Riley Lammert
oke yeah cause i find it funny how i can do an overpen, pen, bounce, non pen in a single salvo.. its like wtf my shell too strong my shell to weak,, when you overpen a tier 10 battleship in a new orleans thats when i get pretty frustrated :P but thanx for the advice
Yep, I was guilty of that "give up safe 12km position just to Engage the Secondaries" obviously you take unnecessary damage and you die quicker....
I had a Ranked game this morning with 180K Damage.
I miss it when Bismarck was good
And then there's Notser casually putting secondary builds on American BBs
i cant too
Is that camo a mod or...?
WindmillStalker you mean the camouflage he has on the ship?
If yes, then that is the permanent premium camouflage, you can buy it for 3000 doubloons.
I've fought against a 2 Bismarck 1 benson division before and it wasn't pretty.
and i tend to think if your secondaries are going off you might be to close
In the earlier battleships, with 3-5km range secondaries, then that's definitely true when you're facing dd's and Japanese Cruisers.
Isn't this just players over extending themselves through inexperience or whatever?... I don't really see what secondaries have to do with it, its common for everyone to charge in when they are learning the game
And you say that secondaries contributed little to this game which is true, but RNG can turn that on its head
I have played Bismarck a lot... and while you are focused on your main target, set secondaries to another and you can basically not worry about your gunners doing their job.. isn't that the point?
I max out secondaries, couldn't care about the stats. They look cool and its super fun to go close range.
If u want to be a sniper and camp you can back peddle on a N.C
When you wanna be a badass, play Bismarck. Bismarck + tier 6-8 battle + good tune = profit.
DaKillerChipmunk Spot on :)
Audio seems way off.
Flamu, they added anti-aliasing, try it out
hundreds of games in my Bis and yet to have a game even close to matching your dispersion. Please no response or explanation needed. Its a Statement not a question.
manual sekundare??????? yes?
I got the same prob whit american bb's exept for the monty for soem stupid reason citin'g that one left and right :')
The yamato secondarys are much better even without the manual secondarys i usually deal much more damage then with the bismark :)
_-ANTI-_ maybe cause its a 2 Tier difference????
i really enjoy triple citadel yamatos with my front bismark guns...
The Yamato is 2 tiers higher.
Secondary builds are not as potent that high since most ppl are pretty far away from you
That is something I noticed in the Bismarck. In tier 6-8 games, things get closer and it's much easier to take advantage of secondaries. In tier 8-10 games though, it's much more difficult to safely close the distance.
not convinced the MFCSA is even worth it tbh
Nooooo... this was supposed to our little secret. If people actually start playing Bismarck right, well then they won't such good damage and kill farms.
POI
POI
The good old days when WoWs is actually fun...
And memes ship still relevant
話太多 說話速度也太快 很吵