in fact switching gears will be the hardest thing on the system. bicycles with single speed shatf drive have been around for more then a century. so no point of making videos of something "revolutionary" and claim performance numbers without showing something really new working.
How hard would it have been to put peddles on it and have someone demo it on a roller? Ah, that would have shown how weak the rear gear hub was! Nice idea though.
nitemareman1 He said he "has a functional, engineering prototype" Would have been nice to have seen that one and to see it working since he is making claims. The concept is awesome, just would have liked to have seen the functioning version as there are real strength issues with that rear cassette.
"The world's most efficient drivetrain." ... Yeah, when you twirl the crank with your pinky! 2 points of rolling friction is great until you put some force on it, then you realize that you need those 8 more points of contact in order to handle the torque necessary to power a bike/rider forward. Aesthetically, it looks pretty, but mechanically it looks ugly to me because you're changing the axis of rotation twice.
GR28 yeah. The tolerance on this is crazy. They are just doing a regular drive train so they need to go helical for more contact surface area. This is nothing new or special. They are way behind of current tech so they are actually a bit stupid.
also there using open bearing that would need to change out here in Australia the is loads of dust even in the big city's those bearings wont last long
I really look forward to seeing this in the real world once you've figured out the remaining challenges. All the issues I can see look solvable, which is really promising.
It won't work under load. The entire load is on one little aluminum tooth at a time. Another huge problem is that as soon as you put load on it the rollers will put pressure on the sprocket to move it away from the rollers. That flimsy aluminum would soon bend. And then there is the problem of changing the pinion diameter. If you do that you have to move the pinion either closer or farther away from the sprocket.
yes and no. LOOKS a bit flimsy, but that could be 110% solved by beefing up the supporting structure with a 1/2lb of extra aluminum. They didn't set out to build the world's lightest bike gears. ;) Their "shift channel" scheme is pretty tricky, but there could also be a more straight forward method of swinging the rear of drive shaft out, then moving to new gear location forward or aft, then moving back into engagement with rear sprocket. But that wouldn't be as sexy.
OK the problem with the design is this. Put the drive wheel in a vice so it cant turn, now apply large force to pedals watch what happens.....the drive shaft pinion gear is like a big leaver and it will push against the gear hub perpendicular to the wheel, and if you are using an outer gear, it will only have to bend the outside of the ring 10mm and it will jump a gear. You will need to massively reinforce the wheel so no matter how hard you push perpendicular to the gear hub, it does not move. It also means that any gear change will have to be carried out without any force on the pedals, if you are on the pedals when it changes it will crash and clatter through the change channels......What you need is a device that has more points of contact that you can transfer the load in stages...A CHAIN.....There are no free lunches, if you have less points of contact then you have less friction but you have a higher force per point of contact, so you will have to make everything stronger and therefore heavier.
Run through some muck and pick up a tiny rock in one of those teeth. Watch the system come to an abrupt halt. Or one good offroad crash bent teeth and/or disk. This system LOOKS cool. Still has far to go. Could be accomplished with solid helical cut gear to allow for linear gear changes under load. Current concept is solar road. 1000 cool factor, utterly impossible to actually put into use.
Ever imagined what happens when a chain is a little worn? Yep, it only has one or very few contact points as well. Shifting is a problem, yes. But as there are electronic derailleurs, there will be an electronic solution for the shifting problem. Also the strength can be addressed. If you do some FEM analysis, you can easily design an axially stiff yet light gear wheel. This won't be mass produced stuff. With production bikes in the 20k region today, there will be someone willing to pay the price for the extra percent of efficiency.
Barbatio I think that would be completely possible. The rotation of the shaft could generate current in the same way an automatic watch is powered by your wrist. I can think of 3 reasons not to do it that way. 1. Perhaps the space is very small and they already and having trouble making the electronics fit. 2. The generator would require some, even if it’s very small, humans energy. It might add up in a long race. 3. It’s possible the current draw is pretty high and would not be offset much but a small generator in the shaft. 4. Added expenses and such. Although I doubt they are worried about that
As said its very light and has low friction. Now if you show it withstanding a rider kicking up a hill without causing deflection of the rear gear cluster away from the rollers on the shaft, you have overcome one obstacle. If it will shift reliably/smoothly going up a grade under heavy load you have overcome another. If it can withstand abrasives and moisture, again another challenge met. Seeing as to how this vid is almost a year old I would have to assume some of these engineering challenges are proving difficult to overcome.
That's the first thing I thought. Everything is under a side load now and no backing plate for strength. Cool design but I think it would end up In pieces.
I think they could solve that by beefing up the cassette, but that would add a substantial amount of weight. Would be cool for someone like me who doesn't race, but anyone who does would want to watch out
super-genius...it really is, and great video-coverage on what has to be the way of the future. taming parasitic-drag has always been the determining factor in way more than bikes, in engineering in general...and my favorite part of the video was the actual durability-test in the field for a real-world comparison lol. but im sure in time, this design will permiate bicycling.
Hmm. And how are you going to keep those bearings clean? Unless they're sealed... and there's your friction. And there is sliding friction. As the teeth of the sprocket come into contact with the outside of the bearings they have to slide back and forth a bit with the rotation of the sprocket.. With a chain that doesn't happen. This system may well have more friction than a standard derailleur. Which is how it is with shaft driven motorcycles - shaft drive has more friction than chain. This is what comes with a change in direction of rotation.
Especially if you have this 20 speed version. The gear furthest from the hub would get really wobbly, I would expect. Then add hammering it up a climb, where you would use that gear.... seems like you'd need a two sided cage version that holds it all together.
Exactly what i was thinking... imagine a sprinter going full tilt max wattage in a lower gear with that disc flexing .... bearings jumping teeth like crazy.. that + full suspension= disaster !! Unless the drive rod was somehow also the swingarm ???
So all that force put into 1 to 2 rollers? I would really like to see how this holds up with a serious athlete on a hill climb. Seems...very complex. Batteries and software? And can I keep applying power during the shift? Would have loved to see an actual demo on some rollers.
I want one on my bike! Definitely the right approach from a mechanical engineering point of view. Side flex on the back gear plate would be a trick but nothing that the right design won’t fix
I don't get why you put it on the rear wheel. Adapt this into a "gearbox" that can serve as the front cog with a drive shaft turning a worm wheel in the rear so then the rear wheel suspension can work better.
Enclose the whole thing crank to hub in a mono fork swing arm crankcase with light oil bath and externalize the shift mechanics (within the casing but outside of the driveshaft) and use the casing to oppose the torque of the pinion. Shift timing could be spring loaded and triggered by rotational arrival at shift point. The advantage of having an enclosure is you keep out the dirt and you can use slipperier oil. There would be a weight penalty but durability and dependability would increase. Also oil seals would add to sliding friction at the crank and hub.
It looks nice on that stand, but I see several problems having to do with the pressure between the tiny bearings and the flimsy gears, by the time you're done it will be four times heavier.
Till its putting power to the ground with a competitive cyclist's legs stomping on the pedals, I'll reserve judgement. Perhaps the line at the show was "I'd love to give you a ride but we forgot to bring pedals".
Rolling resistance, sometimes called rolling friction or rolling drag, is the force resisting the motion when a body (such as a ball, tire, or wheel) rolls on a surface. ... In analogy with sliding friction, rolling resistance is often expressed as a coefficient times the normal force.
I love your idea....I could take it a step further with automatic gearshiting as neededill have to think on this but your idea was better then mine similar but better I love it....
I fully understand the need to improve and modify things but in certain circumstances reinventing the wheel when you just need a tire is silly. It's like cutting all the sharp edges of a square block untill it rolls and calling it high tech rolling device. The concept is great but I just can't see it standing up to powerful pedaling.. there will be flex and all sorts of issues.
My only question, How do you control flex? The drive sprocket looks beefy enough, but the rear one looks very thin. Even if you use an exotic materiel like magnesium or titanium, there isn't enough mass to prevent a lot of flex and eventually breakage
Problem I see with this system: You need very little tolerances in the concentricity of the chainrings and a high stiffness of the crank and bikeframe under load. The drive shaft can not counterbalance any tolerances or wear like a chain can do. So you need a force to push the gear to the "chainring" to prevent "jumping". A Chain creates its own force , which pushes it to the chainring. You can compare that system with a back differential in a car.
Its got to be so stiff with no flex and tolerances so precise and it would probably wear out sooner cause of less surface area loading in an abrasive harsh environment unlike a diff. Pretty but unlikely
This is whatI have been waiting for for years........MTB’rs need to get rid of the derailleur as it is the weak link now. I cannot wait to have the system on a bike ......if you need a tester. I am your man! I wish you every success bringing this to market....cant wait.
I could see this developing into something useful for the road, but this system still leaves some to be desired when its comes to MTBing as it still has a lot of sprung mass on the rear wheel, I think something like pinion which eliminates this is more likely to take off for off road use.
6 років тому+12
Will not work on MTB with all the mud an dirt in it (unless completely covered and sealed) ...
I like the concept, but in real world application? If I were sprinting uphill pushing big watts, would the pinion\gears tolerate the stress? what happens in the winter when the roads are covered in rain\snow\salt?
my question is how do you keep deflection happening in the lower gears, it seems if the gear cluster would flex more in the lower gears you'd potentially have skipping.
@@joeMW284 a slip collar to control the gear shifting portion could easily be actuated by a simple wire cable. slip collar would just ride in the air as the drive shaft rotated inside of it unless shifting then contact with the inner portion of collar that would be a bearing, push or pull you could shift gears smoothly and easily without worrying about the extra weight the electronics add.
Keep it up. Can’t imagine all the hurdles you have already overcome. Looking at this prototype, it looks like flex could become an issue. If so, milling the gears into the rear tire itself might be an avenue to approach. Swapping rear tires would give you all the gearing options you need. As for the driveshaft, it could also be a more integral part of the frame. In other words, if this doesn’t work as you have envisioned it, instead of tweaking your design, maybe tweak what the bike itself is. Best of luck to you.
Only one question for me is how much torque can it handle before popping out of the track or shearing driveshaft or stripping ceramic ball bearing out of housing basically how much power can it handle.
There is no foot pedals so that nobody would come and break it. Now imagine that under a hill climb by 100kg man. Efficiency may be 99% in a small torque, but in human foot force is too much for this. To withstand this, they would need to make this a lot heavier. I hope potential investor will be able to read these comments.
Materials are not there yet. Too much load on one bearing "tooth", and rigidity of cassette has to allow for low gear (outer ring) from springing back at high loads. Nice demo, hope someone invests in it as a good lesson to learn mechanics. ( : A text book from 1830's would do
yeah, but the teeth don't need to be formed like what we see here, what we see is what you'd shape them like if they (still) would have to grab onto a (bike) CHAIN! they didn't think of that yet, but now that we got rid of the chain, of course we'd shape the teeth the way the teeth on PROPER sprockets would be shaped, where on both sides the teeth are shaped in an equal fashion - and MUCH stronger than what we see here. besides, the construction as shown with unnecessary ball bearings in the back even has more week spots where those ball bearings are attached.
No surprise that the conceptual challenge (shifting) was the hurdle I had with a similar design about 35 years ago. I was thinking helical-bevel cut at the time. Never got past that!
The rear sprocket doesn't look rigid enough when you are in Low (driving outermost sprocket.) The radial ribs appear to be constant cross-section when they should be exponentially tapered to get the necessary out -of-plane stiffness of the outermost sprockets.
Concept bike. Looks like an interesting idea that could work, shifting is pretty complicated since everything has to be in the correct position at the correct time.
looks like it produces a tremendous amount of axial force. The lightness goes away once you beef everything up so it does not bend when you stand on the pedals. might work with a tandem drive shaft configuration to remove the axial forces on the rear. The front is a bit trickier. I guess it could work with enough added weight and complexity. Hard to beat a good quality chain for strength and weight.
Multiple tiny bearings having no seals or even SHIELDS. After just one hour in a REAL WORLD gritty road environment this setup would sound like gravel in a blender. There is no way this could survive the torque generated by the full body weight of a rider standing on the pedals through so few points of contact. Nothing comes for free: one-percent friction results in one-percent reliability.
This would be the biggest change in cycling in a very long time. I am sure there are many engineerng hurdles to clear. But it takes great minds and positive, creative thinking to imagine and reinvent the drive system on a human powered cycle. Bravo I say!!
That sounds great, but was about the flex on the "cassette" when you get into the outer gears? That mock-up doesn't look like it will take a lot of stress... like it would slip... something my chain currently won't do (say, when I'm going uphill standing on my pedals).
Huh? No it doesn't. Here are no springs or moving parts that would move unpredictably under tension / pressure. This actually looks like there's less chance of slipping than a conventional derailleur system. You would either have to break a tooth or break the bearing mount.
Petrikas M. You have no idea what your talking about. it's an absolutely stupid idea. This would slip a hundred percent it would skip. Let me say this again you give me thst bike fir a week and i do some powrr intervals it will get destroyed. Its good for an old ladys adult tricycle not a road bike you imbeciles
Petrikas M. The whole unit that arm would pop out under pressure or tension I guarantee that. You see that arm with all those little bearings on it under tension that would Skip and pop out I guarantee you my life. Send me one of those bikes and if one week goes by and it survives I will pay for it twice what it's worth
You don't sound like a very literate person. I'll assume you're a cyclist, not an engineer / mechanic. None of your contra-arguments make sense from an engineering stand point. Empty words in the wind. If you want to discuss further, please construct an argument and back it up with physics.
Why dont you tell us how flat the earth is ha ha ha is that why you like this so much? Ha ha ha ha ha 😂 Does it reminded you of your flat paradise? ha ha ha lmfaooo000!!😂
Dude, I soooo invented that years ago (made drawings, too). Nice to see my ideas are valid. Thanks for doing the work! I have hundreds more if you are interested.
I'm sceptic about the practicality of this system.. it looks like a verry practical system in this video.. but go and ride this bike in a mud/dust/rain and see how it works..then we can talk about it.
It may be the world's most efficient when it is proven to be on an actual, bicycle that can be ridden and gears shifted. Also, a problem with the "quick disconnect" drive ratio chance is that the diameter of the drive sprocket will change requiring it to be on an axis either closer or further from the wheel mounded, driven sprocket.
The original inventor of this called "Mucit Hasan Kum" The person above has invented this system, and the original one works much more efficiently then the one shown on this video. You may see his invention type "Mucit Hasan Kum, Zincirsiz Bisiklet" Regards.
I did a little digging and found that a man by the name of Walter Stillman patented a drive shaft bike in 1890. From what I can translate as well there may have been someone by the name of Hasan Bey that may have had a hand in creating someone similar as well before the man you mention.
I was all on board till I saw the wireless shifting - now no way.... Make a manual version! Even if it means having a neutral space between gears and less gears. Back off the pedals to shift - just like the old days - fine with me. No one wants to put batteries in their bike drivetrain!
Looks really neat, lots of possibilities... One issue, what would happen if you threw a hand full of wet mud on that rear sprocket? Asking for a friend.
So many videos and none of them show it switching gears.
coz it is just a prototype, switching gears will be provided in future, but it looks ease with splines on the shaft
in fact switching gears will be the hardest thing on the system. bicycles with single speed shatf drive have been around for more then a century. so no point of making videos of something "revolutionary" and claim performance numbers without showing something really new working.
there is a video on it switching.. it makes a lot of noise
Harry Tzianskis The God of Speed can you link it? I haven't seen it either.
ua-cam.com/video/rgo-yEaXDzA/v-deo.html here you go guys! 😁 Shane Miller
How hard would it have been to put peddles on it and have someone demo it on a roller? Ah, that would have shown how weak the rear gear hub was! Nice idea though.
Because its just a static model, none of it realy works
MegaPoxie the teeth would start breaking off.
...and put two PRO cameras mounted at the pinion during an actual ride...fit the one pinion on a road bike and another on a mountain bike.
It's in beta. Everyone wants everything finished or it's junk, right?
nitemareman1
He said he "has a functional, engineering prototype" Would have been nice to have seen that one and to see it working since he is making claims. The concept is awesome, just would have liked to have seen the functioning version as there are real strength issues with that rear cassette.
"We haven't done measurements but we feel this will be 15-20% lighter".
Seems like an odd thing for an engineer to say.
"we have the scales, but the math still eludes us"
@@squirming_squirrels Right...
A 15-20% weight advantage could be negated by making that shaft out of this stuff called "metal".
We have removed the chain and rear derailleur but we have a battery, multi bearings, actuator, spring and electronics lol, pretty much like for like
The telephones work, you just can't dial out.
Amazing, great to see new tech. Keep up the good work guys.
"The world's most efficient drivetrain." ... Yeah, when you twirl the crank with your pinky!
2 points of rolling friction is great until you put some force on it, then you realize that you need those 8 more points of contact in order to handle the torque necessary to power a bike/rider forward.
Aesthetically, it looks pretty, but mechanically it looks ugly to me because you're changing the axis of rotation twice.
That is true
I agree with you. This is not IC engine to reduce the friction is a fakin bike!
Not to mention friction in two bearings at beginning and the end of the axis.
GR28 yeah. The tolerance on this is crazy. They are just doing a regular drive train so they need to go helical for more contact surface area.
This is nothing new or special. They are way behind of current tech so they are actually a bit stupid.
also there using open bearing that would need to change out here in Australia the is loads of dust even in the big city's those bearings wont last long
"We have just invented the worlds fastest drive train"
*two seconds later*
"Here's our consept"
I really look forward to seeing this in the real world once you've figured out the remaining challenges. All the issues I can see look solvable, which is really promising.
It won't work under load. The entire load is on one little aluminum tooth at a time. Another huge problem is that as soon as you put load on it the rollers will put pressure on the sprocket to move it away from the rollers. That flimsy aluminum would soon bend. And then there is the problem of changing the pinion diameter. If you do that you have to move the pinion either closer or farther away from the sprocket.
bombero42 you're so right . I think it will fail at the outer reach of the rear sprocket . Beautiful piece of jewellery though
@@darrenbutler160 One for each ear (:-)
yes and no. LOOKS a bit flimsy, but that could be 110% solved by beefing up the supporting structure with a 1/2lb of extra aluminum. They didn't set out to build the world's lightest bike gears. ;)
Their "shift channel" scheme is pretty tricky, but there could also be a more straight forward method of swinging the rear of drive shaft out, then moving to new gear location forward or aft, then moving back into engagement with rear sprocket. But that wouldn't be as sexy.
@@bigsqueeze7883 Maybe, but I would still have doubts. One tooth supporting the whole load when a cyclist starts off is quite a bit.
Big Squeeze If you think 110 is a real percentage I can understand why you think this will work
OK the problem with the design is this. Put the drive wheel in a vice so it cant turn, now apply large force to pedals watch what happens.....the drive shaft pinion gear is like a big leaver and it will push against the gear hub perpendicular to the wheel, and if you are using an outer gear, it will only have to bend the outside of the ring 10mm and it will jump a gear. You will need to massively reinforce the wheel so no matter how hard you push perpendicular to the gear hub, it does not move. It also means that any gear change will have to be carried out without any force on the pedals, if you are on the pedals when it changes it will crash and clatter through the change channels......What you need is a device that has more points of contact that you can transfer the load in stages...A CHAIN.....There are no free lunches, if you have less points of contact then you have less friction but you have a higher force per point of contact, so you will have to make everything stronger and therefore heavier.
That true, less points of contact is lot more of pression
Paul Murphy excellent observation!
i was thinking the same thing. this looks like all of the pressure, is on one tooth.
Run through some muck and pick up a tiny rock in one of those teeth. Watch the system come to an abrupt halt. Or one good offroad crash bent teeth and/or disk. This system LOOKS cool. Still has far to go. Could be accomplished with solid helical cut gear to allow for linear gear changes under load. Current concept is solar road. 1000 cool factor, utterly impossible to actually put into use.
Ever imagined what happens when a chain is a little worn? Yep, it only has one or very few contact points as well.
Shifting is a problem, yes. But as there are electronic derailleurs, there will be an electronic solution for the shifting problem. Also the strength can be addressed. If you do some FEM analysis, you can easily design an axially stiff yet light gear wheel.
This won't be mass produced stuff. With production bikes in the 20k region today, there will be someone willing to pay the price for the extra percent of efficiency.
Undoing the inherent simplicity of the drive when you add electronic-wireless-battery powered shifting.
High end derailleur bikes now use electronic shifting, with batteries and servos. It's lighter and more reliable than using bowden cables.
just buzzwords to sell old tech as "innovation"
The pinion is rotating so it needs to be wireless.
It would be nice if electronic derailers could be powered off the bike itself.
Barbatio I think that would be completely possible. The rotation of the shaft could generate current in the same way an automatic watch is powered by your wrist.
I can think of 3 reasons not to do it that way.
1. Perhaps the space is very small and they already and having trouble making the electronics fit.
2. The generator would require some, even if it’s very small, humans energy. It might add up in a long race.
3. It’s possible the current draw is pretty high and would not be offset much but a small generator in the shaft.
4. Added expenses and such. Although I doubt they are worried about that
I've been thinking about this, and very pleased with this design.
That is fantastic, lots of applications in all sorts of industries. Awesome.
This is what's called a "Spoof of Concept"
As said its very light and has low friction.
Now if you show it withstanding a rider kicking up a hill without causing deflection of the rear gear cluster away from the rollers on the shaft, you have overcome one obstacle.
If it will shift reliably/smoothly going up a grade under heavy load you have overcome another.
If it can withstand abrasives and moisture, again another challenge met.
Seeing as to how this vid is almost a year old I would have to assume some of these engineering challenges are proving difficult to overcome.
What a brilliant set of concepts good luck folks!
If you ask me this is the bike of the future! Thank you for the design can't wait to try one.
so any dirt or debree will mess it up and how is it so post to change gear
I guarantee that would either break or slip under high torque like hill climbing.
That's the first thing I thought. Everything is under a side load now and no backing plate for strength. Cool design but I think it would end up In pieces.
Wait till you snag a plastic bag....You will have to call the A.A. out for a tow.
I think they could solve that by beefing up the cassette, but that would add a substantial amount of weight. Would be cool for someone like me who doesn't race, but anyone who does would want to watch out
super-genius...it really is, and great video-coverage on what has to be the way of the future. taming parasitic-drag has always been the determining factor in way more than bikes, in engineering in general...and my favorite part of the video was the actual durability-test in the field for a real-world comparison lol. but im sure in time, this design will permiate bicycling.
Its gorgeous! Thats fantastic design.
"this how we envision shifting would occur"... enough said.
Ah ... you lack imagination. :)
Hmm. And how are you going to keep those bearings clean? Unless they're sealed... and there's your friction. And there is sliding friction. As the teeth of the sprocket come into contact with the outside of the bearings they have to slide back and forth a bit with the rotation of the sprocket.. With a chain that doesn't happen. This system may well have more friction than a standard derailleur. Which is how it is with shaft driven motorcycles - shaft drive has more friction than chain. This is what comes with a change in direction of rotation.
That is amazing. Can't wait for it to be main stream
An interesting concept, this certainly brings us one step closer to the chainless bike.
There are chainless bikes, they have belts. Quiet, no maintainence.
@@lostcat9lives322 Ah yes, and that's a much better and cheaper evolution!
This thing would pop the bearings over the teeth if you push too hard
agree and that disk looks actually very fragile considering part of the force will be perpendicular to the disk
That is exactly what I wanted to comment, beat me to it
Especially if you have this 20 speed version. The gear furthest from the hub would get really wobbly, I would expect. Then add hammering it up a climb, where you would use that gear.... seems like you'd need a two sided cage version that holds it all together.
Or hit a bunch of bumps while hard pedaling.
Exactly what i was thinking... imagine a sprinter going full tilt max wattage in a lower gear with that disc flexing .... bearings jumping teeth like crazy.. that + full suspension= disaster !! Unless the drive rod was somehow also the swingarm ???
So all that force put into 1 to 2 rollers? I would really like to see how this holds up with a serious athlete on a hill climb. Seems...very complex. Batteries and software?
And can I keep applying power during the shift?
Would have loved to see an actual demo on some rollers.
I want one on my bike! Definitely the right approach from a mechanical engineering point of view. Side flex on the back gear plate would be a trick but nothing that the right design won’t fix
This is awesome! I want to learn more about this innovation and to see it in action (racing).
As soon as he said electric, it burst my bubble. Great idea but how reliable is this? Can it get wet? Rechargeable/pedal driven?
I don't get why you put it on the rear wheel. Adapt this into a "gearbox" that can serve as the front cog with a drive shaft turning a worm wheel in the rear so then the rear wheel suspension can work better.
Amazing idea, wish you success.
Can't wait to have it !
"We envision..." Gears & ratios are my life's work. I give it a 'C' for Creativity.
And when I'm out on a ride it's that dang "eight points" of chain friction that gets me every time!
very well explained. really good job
It loos like a solid works drawing; that is so cool.
100% not designed by an engineer but an interior designer.
Designed by that woman at Theranos.
I need to see someone actually using this tech on the ROAD
Enclose the whole thing crank to hub in a mono fork swing arm crankcase with light oil bath and externalize the shift mechanics (within the casing but outside of the driveshaft) and use the casing to oppose the torque of the pinion. Shift timing could be spring loaded and triggered by rotational arrival at shift point. The advantage of having an enclosure is you keep out the dirt and you can use slipperier oil. There would be a weight penalty but durability and dependability would increase. Also oil seals would add to sliding friction at the crank and hub.
On a positive note, I love the simplicity and elegance of the design.
So it doesnt shift yet, so basically theyve jst dug up a 100+ year old drivetrain and done nothing with it yet
No, the 100 year old drivetrain actually worked. Major Taylor raced on it. But it was a properly designed shaft drive.
Weird how some modern ideas were someone's pipe dream years ago. Like the electric car and apparently this drive train.
Random Kirks Italians made an electric car in the 50’s or 60’s if I remember correctly. It wasn’t very popular.
@@mrnobody9821 Studebaker made electric cars and busses in 1890. They worked.
It looks nice on that stand, but I see several problems having to do with the pressure between the tiny bearings and the flimsy gears, by the time you're done it will be four times heavier.
Till its putting power to the ground with a competitive cyclist's legs stomping on the pedals, I'll reserve judgement.
Perhaps the line at the show was "I'd love to give you a ride but we forgot to bring pedals".
OMG, that is an amazing design!!!
Rolling resistance, sometimes called rolling friction or rolling drag, is the force resisting the motion when a body (such as a ball, tire, or wheel) rolls on a surface. ... In analogy with sliding friction, rolling resistance is often expressed as a coefficient times the normal force.
Incredible mechanical engineering. Wow I'm not a bicycle guy, but the simplicity of the design is jaw dropping. Once again amazing.
You do know, that we went to the moon half a century ago, right? That there can be summerized best by the word "useless".
@@redneckster6639 You know I have a cat named Alfie? he can be summarized as adorable and useless at the same time.
I love it!
what a beautiful model, look forward to seeing it in action on the tour de france one of these years when you sort it out.
Yes, that will happen when Lance Armstrong gets re-instated.
Yes, that will happen when Lance Armstrong gets re-instated.
I love your idea....I could take it a step further with automatic gearshiting as neededill have to think on this but your idea was better then mine similar but better I love it....
I’ll stick with 96% efficiency and robust design.
96% efficiency is rare, very rare. You can get that, and a bit more, with electrical transformers.
I fully understand the need to improve and modify things but in certain circumstances reinventing the wheel when you just need a tire is silly. It's like cutting all the sharp edges of a square block untill it rolls and calling it high tech rolling device. The concept is great but I just can't see it standing up to powerful pedaling.. there will be flex and all sorts of issues.
I could see this used in cars and motorcycles. Very cool
This looks really freaking badass
My only question, How do you control flex? The drive sprocket looks beefy enough, but the rear one looks very thin. Even if you use an exotic materiel like magnesium or titanium, there isn't enough mass to prevent a lot of flex and eventually breakage
Problem I see with this system: You need very little tolerances in the concentricity of the chainrings and a high stiffness of the crank and bikeframe under load. The drive shaft can not counterbalance any tolerances or wear like a chain can do. So you need a force to push the gear to the "chainring" to prevent "jumping". A Chain creates its own force , which pushes it to the chainring. You can compare that system with a back differential in a car.
Its got to be so stiff with no flex and tolerances so precise and it would probably wear out sooner cause of less surface area loading in an abrasive harsh environment unlike a diff. Pretty but unlikely
That is a really smart design.
Looks awesome, good luck 🤞
I hate standard chain sprockets so this nice. I am estimating never to be seen on low end bikes!
Cheers
This is whatI have been waiting for for years........MTB’rs need to get rid of the derailleur as it is the weak link now.
I cannot wait to have the system on a bike ......if you need a tester. I am your man!
I wish you every success bringing this to market....cant wait.
I could see this developing into something useful for the road, but this system still leaves some to be desired when its comes to MTBing as it still has a lot of sprung mass on the rear wheel, I think something like pinion which eliminates this is more likely to take off for off road use.
Will not work on MTB with all the mud an dirt in it (unless completely covered and sealed) ...
Well if you want added friction, go ahead!
With suspension of mtb, I don't think this would work as is.
It's been there for years:
www.dynamicbicyclesuk.co.uk/cycletowork/
I like the concept, but in real world application? If I were sprinting uphill pushing big watts, would the pinion\gears tolerate the stress? what happens in the winter when the roads are covered in rain\snow\salt?
go to Florida
I am an engineer and I did this over 20 years ago. Now just by advertising this guy's taking all the credit for old technology
my question is how do you keep deflection happening in the lower gears, it seems if the gear cluster would flex more in the lower gears you'd potentially have skipping.
Nothing like going into the shop for new bearings every month or year
"Wireless electronics" inside a carbon fiber tube which shields rf......nice art project.
@WhiteShadow2k1 might get complicated - the shaft is rotating. Not saying there isn't a way, but the wireless option would probably be the easiest.
@@joeMW284 a wire connected up to a magnetic sensor/signal generator could easily transmit a signal to a rotating shaft without contact.
Such a short yet absolutely brutal comment - "nice art project" just puts the cherry on top of this masterpiece of text.
@@joeMW284 a slip collar to control the gear shifting portion could easily be actuated by a simple wire cable. slip collar would just ride in the air as the drive shaft rotated inside of it unless shifting then contact with the inner portion of collar that would be a bearing, push or pull you could shift gears smoothly and easily without worrying about the extra weight the electronics add.
@WhiteShadow2k1 It would be easy to install a device that would generate enough power to recharge just by riding.
Keep it up. Can’t imagine all the hurdles you have already overcome. Looking at this prototype, it looks like flex could become an issue. If so, milling the gears into the rear tire itself might be an avenue to approach. Swapping rear tires would give you all the gearing options you need. As for the driveshaft, it could also be a more integral part of the frame. In other words, if this doesn’t work as you have envisioned it, instead of tweaking your design, maybe tweak what the bike itself is. Best of luck to you.
You could also make it single sided rear arm if the brake was also supported on the same side.
Only one question for me is how much torque can it handle before popping out of the track or shearing driveshaft or stripping ceramic ball bearing out of housing basically how much power can it handle.
Month later no reply must not be able to handle much power might as well assume that is its flaw
What happens when you get the usual road crud on it I can imagine this will increase wear and reduce the 99% efficiency you talk about.
Yeah, but that applies to the old stuff too, doesn’t it?
Cool idea. Good luck.
What about the possibilities around cycling off road and the impact of small gravels and mud on the ceramic disc ?
There is no foot pedals so that nobody would come and break it. Now imagine that under a hill climb by 100kg man.
Efficiency may be 99% in a small torque, but in human foot force is too much for this. To withstand this, they would need to make this a lot heavier. I hope potential investor will be able to read these comments.
voaa they said they tested it as 380 watts
It is torque that breaks it, not the watts. Think of 100kg standing on pedal, torque is about 250Nm, power 0W.
IT'S A FUCKING PROTOTYPE YOU IDIOT!!!! USE BRAIN OR AT LEAST TRY TO HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF THINGS AND LIFE!!!
@@cjschmitt4882 So it being a prototype excuses the totally infeasible design? Okay...
@Phone Number it's a PoC. Proof of Concept. Oh wait, sorry, I mean Piece of Crap
Materials are not there yet. Too much load on one bearing "tooth", and rigidity of cassette has to allow for low gear (outer ring) from springing back at high loads. Nice demo, hope someone invests in it as a good lesson to learn mechanics. ( : A text book from 1830's would do
yeah, but the teeth don't need to be formed like what we see here, what we see is what you'd shape them like if they (still) would have to grab onto a (bike) CHAIN! they didn't think of that yet, but now that we got rid of the chain, of course we'd shape the teeth the way the teeth on PROPER sprockets would be shaped, where on both sides the teeth are shaped in an equal fashion - and MUCH stronger than what we see here. besides, the construction as shown with unnecessary ball bearings in the back even has more week spots where those ball bearings are attached.
No surprise that the conceptual challenge (shifting) was the hurdle I had with a similar design about 35 years ago. I was thinking helical-bevel cut at the time. Never got past that!
The Garrett turbos we’re very prone to bearing failure on the compressor side. Only in production for 2 years
The cassette disk looks flimsy laterally and would flex under enough load. The system would have to be enclosed to prevent fouling.
They need to encase it somehow so that road dirt, mud doesn't get in there.
The rear sprocket doesn't look rigid enough when you are in Low (driving outermost sprocket.) The radial ribs appear to be constant cross-section when they should be exponentially tapered to get the necessary out -of-plane stiffness of the outermost sprockets.
Concept bike. Looks like an interesting idea that could work, shifting is pretty complicated since everything has to be in the correct position at the correct time.
The whole mechanism would be destroyed the first time someone actually tried to pedal it!!!
We will never ever see this on any bike...
But it is a bicycle, later versions may be beefier and stronger, this is just the concept and not the final design
Unless the makers use stronger parts it will not work, but it could work with said parts
@See, the thing is I know, just a cool idea though
Shifting would probably be difficult to get working but motorcycles use shaft drive. Although the gear changing happens in the engine.
*What about a real life example of the rear wheel mechanism being clogged by mud/dirt?*
They are still in the dog urine testing phase. Patience.
That system shows a lot of potential. Especially if you can get it to last long enough to make it economical enough to ride every day.
looks like it produces a tremendous amount of axial force. The lightness goes away once you beef everything up so it does not bend when you stand on the pedals. might work with a tandem drive shaft configuration to remove the axial forces on the rear. The front is a bit trickier. I guess it could work with enough added weight and complexity. Hard to beat a good quality chain for strength and weight.
Multiple tiny bearings having no seals or even SHIELDS. After just one hour in a REAL WORLD gritty road environment this setup would sound like gravel in a blender. There is no way this could survive the torque generated by the full body weight of a rider standing on the pedals through so few points of contact. Nothing comes for free: one-percent friction results in one-percent reliability.
I spose it could all be housed in a clear plastic cover.
This would be the biggest change in cycling in a very long time. I am sure there are many engineerng hurdles to clear. But it takes great minds and positive, creative thinking to imagine and reinvent the drive system on a human powered cycle. Bravo I say!!
I wonder if forces perpendicular to the pinions is large under load, both acting on the drive shaft and on the rear "cassette".
That sounds great, but was about the flex on the "cassette" when you get into the outer gears? That mock-up doesn't look like it will take a lot of stress... like it would slip... something my chain currently won't do (say, when I'm going uphill standing on my pedals).
He sure does say "would" a lot. Not "does" or "is."
Over 7 minutes of no shifting! Just look at the thumb nail, no need to watch.
Parabéns!!! Porque não mostra passando as marchas???
Very cool. I designed a similar transmission for an automobile about 25 yrs. Ago.
But I have no idea how to get it refined and to market.
a lot of useless talk and hot air. I would like to see someone testing it under regular riding conditions.
This looks like it would slip if someone tried to push hard
Huh? No it doesn't. Here are no springs or moving parts that would move unpredictably under tension / pressure. This actually looks like there's less chance of slipping than a conventional derailleur system. You would either have to break a tooth or break the bearing mount.
Petrikas M. You have no idea what your talking about. it's an absolutely stupid idea. This would slip a hundred percent it would skip. Let me say this again you give me thst bike fir a week and i do some powrr intervals it will get destroyed. Its good for an old ladys adult tricycle not a road bike you imbeciles
Petrikas M. The whole unit that arm would pop out under pressure or tension I guarantee that. You see that arm with all those little bearings on it under tension that would Skip and pop out I guarantee you my life. Send me one of those bikes and if one week goes by and it survives I will pay for it twice what it's worth
You don't sound like a very literate person. I'll assume you're a cyclist, not an engineer / mechanic. None of your contra-arguments make sense from an engineering stand point. Empty words in the wind. If you want to discuss further, please construct an argument and back it up with physics.
Why dont you tell us how flat the earth is ha ha ha is that why you like this so much? Ha ha ha ha ha 😂 Does it reminded you of your flat paradise? ha ha ha lmfaooo000!!😂
Dude, I soooo invented that years ago (made drawings, too). Nice to see my ideas are valid. Thanks for doing the work! I have hundreds more if you are interested.
Can you grate vegetables on the rear gear?
I'm sceptic about the practicality of this system.. it looks like a verry practical system in this video.. but go and ride this bike in a mud/dust/rain and see how it works..then we can talk about it.
Probably need your smartphone to shift gears on your bicycle.
I think the outside of the rear sprocket will buckle under pressure
It may be the world's most efficient when it is proven to be on an actual, bicycle that can be ridden and gears shifted. Also, a problem with the "quick disconnect" drive ratio chance is that the diameter of the drive sprocket will change requiring it to be on an axis either closer or further from the wheel mounded, driven sprocket.
The original inventor of this called
"Mucit Hasan Kum"
The person above has invented this system, and the original one works much more efficiently then the one shown on this video. You may see his invention type
"Mucit Hasan Kum, Zincirsiz Bisiklet"
Regards.
Thanks for sharing! Wish I could see more of the original inventors videos and under stand what he is saying.
I did a little digging and found that a man by the name of Walter Stillman patented a drive shaft bike in 1890. From what I can translate as well there may have been someone by the name of Hasan Bey that may have had a hand in creating someone similar as well before the man you mention.
I was all on board till I saw the wireless shifting - now no way.... Make a manual version! Even if it means having a neutral space between gears and less gears. Back off the pedals to shift - just like the old days - fine with me. No one wants to put batteries in their bike drivetrain!
Looks really neat, lots of possibilities... One issue, what would happen if you threw a hand full of wet mud on that rear sprocket? Asking for a friend.
Will you explain about gearshifting plz