Why I Am An Open Theist | Open Theism Series | Part 1 | Jesse Morrell
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- Jesse Morrell of www.OpenAirOutreach.com teaches on open theism and why he became an open theist. Is open theism biblical? This is the first in a coming series.
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Someone asked, "Jesse, does God foreknow If you (or me) will be ultimately saved?"
God knows if you are presently saved or not but the fact that names have been written into the book of life after creation and the fact that names can be blotted out of the book of life shows that it is not a foregone conclusion but an ongoing development.
This is evidence against the Calvinistic doctrine of Preservation of the Saints in my opinion. I do believe that no one can take your salvation from you, however you can give up your salvation which fits nicely with the Bible and with what Mr. Morrell has stated here.
Repent from your heresies Jesse
I've seen implication in scripture of taking someone's name out of the book of life like when Moses asked God to blot him out for the sake of the Israelites, and in Revelation when Jesus said to him who overcomes I will not blot his name out of the book of life, but where are the verses that say someone was added or actually removed after creation. I believe in Conditional Security but confused about the whole book of life thing.
the open theist god is weak compared to the all-powerful god of the bible
@@kirilhristov9024- Amen Kiril!
This has helped me answer so many objections I've had from hearing catholic people preach about original sin and the inability to choose to NOT sin (as it's in our very nature) that it has greatly drawn me closer to the Bible like never before because open theism makes so much SENSE it's unbelievable how intuitively right it feels. How can I be created as a predetermined sinner and be banished to hell??? How can I have free will yet NOT be able to overcome sin?? Now I understand the bible so much more, thank you for this video.
Man thank you a lot! I've been looking to know about open theism for months, but all I could find is people saying that this is diabolic. I really need to bring this to Brazil. Do you want some help with translations? I could do this for free.
Leonardo, stick with the conservative fundamental preachers. Bruce Ware is an excellent Theologian who explains why Open Theism is rubish. By the way God's not open to heresy He hates it.
shut up telling people what to do read and think. You are rubbish
It is diabolical.
It seems that Open Theism is intolerant of mystery and uncertainty, thus God has to be demoted to the level of man with respect to the breath and depth of His knowledge. I suppose that’s necessary to give a sense of comfort that a finite mind might completely understands the infinite.
@@Bamifun That’s not the reason people support open theism. Open theism is supported because it fundamentally makes the idea of free will truly free and it absolves God of being the creator of evil since creating humans who you know will not accept Jesus, are going to be evil and will be damned to eternal punishment is in itself evil. It’s like if you created a robot that you knew was going to kill someone but you do nothing to stop it, you are at fault since you knew that the robot would do that but you did absolutely nothing. In open theism, you wouldn’t know exactly which path the robot would take meaning that even if you knew of a possibility of the robot killing someone, you wouldn’t be responsible since the robot truly made a free choice and he could’ve gone a different way.
“declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,'”
Isaiah 46:10 ESV
Yep, greed God has pre-ordained the end from the beginning that all things will be recapitulated in Christ (Eph. "That, He should be the head of all things"). However, the text you quote has nothing to say of the myriads and myriads of events between the beginning and that end. More Calvinistic logical fallacies drawn from Biblical texts.
@@rob5462 aren't u a Calvinist
@@Avzigoyhbasilsikos no not at all
@@rob5462 Rob i think i agree with you but I just want to check. What you mean is that God knows the end from the beginning, how He wanted to do the work of salvation and His profecies because He himself would make them to happen?
@@rob5462
It's not just Calvinists who have a problem with this idea.
Jesse Morrell Denying that God knows the future is a heresy. You need to repent and get these videos off of UA-cam
Great arguments which are based on good reasoning, logic, and theological/doctrinal consistency - according to biblical passages. *SALUTE!*
Great logical arguments, a God fashioned after ones own mind.
God can know anything or everything. But he chooses not to know according to his wishes
"God does not foreknow all future events." How could anyone even take this seriously? Try all you want, Jesse Morrell, to dress up your de-goding of God with fancy philosophical tricks, but it will never hide the fact that you believe God to be no different than man.
CalvinistOnACouch remember when God said in the Garden: "Adam, where art thou"? According to Open Theism, Adam successfully hid from God.
Chad Daniels CalvinistOnACouch The reason Christians believe that Omniscience must include knowledge of the future has much to do with the Greek philosophy of Plato. The church has largely adopted the idea that God is outside of "time" and that He created "time" along with the creation itself. This lines up with the philosophers' false Greek gods who were far removed from mankind. Our God is not like this at all. He is shown to be "patient" at times in the Word.
If we escape the false teachings of the Greek philosophers regarding time, we will stop allowing it to taint our understanding of the nature of God. Time is not a "thing" to be created. Einstein treated time as a physical object that can "warp", "dilate", and be traveled through both forward and backward. Time is not a "thing" nor is it a "creation". It is linear only and is merely the observance of the series of events within a living soul's perception.
Time is a pre-requisite for it's own creation. In other words......time would have to exist in order for there to be a "point in time" for it to come into existence. This is impossible. Therefore, God is omniscient but has in His omnipotence, desired to create free- will beings. The future actions of free will beings is not part of a creation that can be known because the actions are moment by moment....created by the free will being. God knows the things that He plans to literally make happen and that's what prophecy is.
The crucifixion proves this undoubtedly. It is a point in history where the Son took on a human nature. Did the Son of God always have a human nature? No. will He continue to have both the nature of God and man for all eternity? Yes. This shows that God operates "in time" just as we do.
contemplate Question.... did God know that the lamb would be slain from the foundation of the world?
Question, did God know who would betray Christ before it happened?
Question, did God know the method that would be used to kill his son?
Open theism, is a blasphemy to the all knowing, all power God.
A really good introduction to Open Theism. I was an Arminian but now I lean toward Open Theism. It makes more sense and has lots of Biblical support.
I enjoyed the video and how it was presented. However, where is part 2?
This is heresy!
Amen Joseph.
The prayers of men have changed the plans of God: Ex. 32:10-14; Num. 11:1-2, 14:12-20, 16:16:20-35; Deut. 9:13-14, 9:18-20, 9:25; 2 Sam. 24:17-25; 1 Kin. 21:27-29; 2 Chron. 12:5-8; Jer. 26:19
God speaks of the future in terms of what may or may not be: Ex. 3:18, 4:9, 13:17; Eze. 12:3
God changes His plans in response to changing circumstances: Ex. 32:10-14, Jer. 18:1-10
Charles Finney || Self Deceivers
ua-cam.com/video/yaVt4S2CyiI/v-deo.html
Thanks for the truly helpful and enlightening comment. I hope you feel better after sharing this incredible wisdom.
Jesse, a century ago, Einstein discovered there is no "cosmic clock". Therefore, the very idea of time is not even a constant to begin with, but a by-product of God's creation. Based on position and speed, events can happen in one order or opposite order. In fact, both space and time bend around a single constant - light. Light! Note: God said, let there be space and time? NO! God said let their be light! The rest of his creation is somehow built around the constancy of light, although we cannot understand how that really works even though we may know various properties of relativity. God not only is outside of time, but there IS NO UNIVERSAL TIME ! Time is instead something experienced in the physical world in a non-constant manner. Only light is experienced consistently in this physical world. Therefore, the future is open from the standpoint of our own observations. But God's standpoint is a mystery, since there is no single past and future from God's standpoint.
+RobertMOdell I'm with you on time, space and light. I don't get the last two sentences though.
+James van der Hoorn Putting it another way, God is outside of time, yet there is no single "time line" for him to observe.
I'm a *semi-open theist.*
I believe that God, being all knowing, is able to see the infinite possibilities that are not certanties while at the same time seeing that man's curiosity and cognitive progression leads them inevitably into phases or "eras", which are certainties. The length of these eras or when they begin or end is dependent on the choices us humans make. The era in which Jesus comes back is something God in heaven knows, however the day and time is dependent on the choices humanity makes in our free will.
That's my view at least. Through Christ I'm open to hearing everyone's thoughts and perspectives.
Ever watch the science of probabilities within large groups? It's not determinism but it's eerily close.
@@Hambone3773 I have! I agree that it shows many parallels to determinism.
“If freedom is an attribute of the infinite One, a world of contingencies is logically inevitable...The moment you bind him with universal necessities you annihilate his freedom.” - Divine Nescience and. Foreknowledge by L.D. McCabe
Nonsense. Agency is generative, not deterministic. Contingencies are necessary for logical structure, but they by no means confound the generative nature of volition. It’s not causation, it’s generation. It’s orthogonal to the time-like track and projects ONTO timelines.
lulz
I never thought about open theism as a biblical plausibility until recently . I never believed in Calvinism but I was Armenian and then leaned toward Molinism but even Molinism doesn't solve the problem of evil or determinism . How can you have free will yet be determined ? William Lain Craig's explanations just don't quite make sense .
Absolutely true
Both are wrong.
The fact that God knows the future is not dependent on God meticulously predetermining every last detail of the future.
Neither does God need to “look down through the corridors of time” in order to know the future.
God knows the future simply because He’s IN the future!
He’s the alpha and the Omega at the exact same time.
He’s not the Alpha and then the Omega.
He’s not going to one day be the Omega.
He’s CURRENTLY as we speak the Alpha and the Omega.
He’s outside of time and space He’s not contained within it that it should limit Him.
He PRESENTLY inhabits the future.
God is already in the future.
He ALREADY inhabits eternity:
ISAIAH 57:15
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that INHABITETH ETERNITY, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
@Aaron Pilkey
You still believe this?
Bible verses that defeat open theism:
Isaiah 42:9 “Behold, the former things have come to pass,
Now I declare new things;
Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you.”
Matthew 26:34 Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times."
1 Peter 1:20 "For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world,"
Romans 8:29 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;"
Ephesians 1:4-5 "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself,"
Acts 4:28 "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."
Revelation 13:8 "everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain."
Plus all the prophesies in the bible wouldn't hold up under open theism
+DMeloMan All of the prophesies in the Bible did not hold up. Don't you read your Bible?
Dustin Leitch Counterfactuals
+DMeloMan here is just one although I could literally fill pages with unfulfilled prophesies. You should really make a better effort to understand those with whom you disagree before you go popping off like a fool. For example, Jeremiah prophesied that Jehoiakim would die a dishonorable death. It is said that no one would mourn for him and that his corpse would be dragged around and thrown outside the gates of Jerusalem, left unburied to decompose in the sun (Jer. 22:18-19, cf. 36:30). Not only this, but it was prophesied that no descendent of his would sit on the throne (Jer. 36:30-31). As it turned out, however, Jehoiakim received a proper burial and his son succeeded him as king (2 Kg. 24:6). What are we to make of this? -
+Dustin Leitch In 598 BC Nebbacanezer laid siege for a 2nd time in Jerusalem which lasted 3 months. During this time Jehoiakim died and his body was throne was throne outside the city walls to convince the invading armies that he was dead. He was then buried beyond the gates of Jerusalem "with the burial of an ass" (Jeremiah 22-18,19 & 36-30) He was succeeded by his son Jeconiah (Jehoiachin) (Coniah) & (Jechonias Mat. 1-11) who reigned for 3 months & 10 days.........After he was disposed of as king by Nebacanezer his uncle Zedekiah was appointed king, who was yet anther son of Josiah and Jehoiakim's brother. Eleven years later Zedekiah was blinded and placed into Babylonian captivity until his death.. Prophesied by God in Jeremiah 32-4,5. Verified in Jeremiah 52:4-11 .... In accordance with Jeremiah the prophet Coniah, Jer.22-28 aka (Jeconiah). will have no man of his seed sit upon the throne of David. The definition of seed here is to mean all of his FUTURE descendants. This "IS" 100 % historically true. However it is prophesied that Jesus will be given the throne of David. How can this be. David had 2 sons by Bathsheba that lived (Solomon & Nathan the prophet). Matthew chapter 1 is Joseph's decentness through Solomon and Luke 3 is Jesus natural seed line through the prophet Nathan. Joseph adopted Jesus so there was no actual seed but rather kingship by the law of adoption.................. The gospel of Matthew> "Jesus King of the Jews", the gospel of Luke> "Jesus the Son of man", and the gospel of John> "Jesus the Son of God" ......the gospel of Mark> "Jesus the lowly servant".....
Jeremiah prophesied that the body of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, would be desecrated after his death (Jeremiah 22:18-19, Jeremiah 36:30-31). However, his death was recorded in 2 Kings 24:6 where it says that "Jehoiakim slept with his fathers, and his son reigned in his stead.". This is a familiar Bible expression that was used to denote a peaceful death and respectful burial. David slept with his fathers (1 Kings 2:10) and so did Solomon (1 Kings 11:43). On the other hand, 2 Chronicles 36:5-6 states that Nebuchadnezzar came against Jehoiakim, bound him in fetters, and carried him to Babylon. Judging from the treatment Zedekiah was accorded when the Babylonians bound him and carried him away to Babylon (Jeremiah 52:9-11), one might justifiably argue that his body probably was desecrated after his death. Jeremiah, however, predicted that Jehoiakim's own people would be his desecraters, that his own people would not accord him lamentations appropriate for a king, that his own people would cast his body "out beyond the gates of Jerusalem".
How do you reconcile Open Theism with Judas' betrayal and Peter's denial? Both were known by God before they occurred...
They are determined. Over and over again, including in this lecture open theism acknowledged that the future is partly undetermined and some determined like Jesus sacrifice, Judas and Revelation scene
God made it so by timely manipulations.
This is dangerous teaching and of course false teaching.
I just finished the video.
I must say I am still skeptical.
I'm not a predestination believer. But I would be a free will-Prophecy believer. Meaning I believe that certain events are immovable, but that we do affect how they shake out.
But I am willing to change if I see evidence and am convinced. You've given me much to think about.
In the meantime,
Please pray for me to have discipline and keep studying His Word.
Shalom
God knows the choices we make and even the outcome of those choices.
[Isa 46:9-10 KJV] 9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
How else could He _know_ with certainty that He would have needed to sacrifice the son from the foundation of the world?
[Rev 13:8 KJV] 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This doesn't mean the gnostic view of determinism is correct. These are two sides of the same coin. God is sovereign _BECAUSE_ man has the ability to deny Him, even those that He's saved like Lot's wife.
Lot's wife was delivered from destruction, but warned to NOT LOOK BACK.
She ignored God's warning and looked back. God being just had to uphold His judgement of sin. Likewise with the atonement of Christ today. He gives us the free will to choose to obey God, or rebel. If we obey He accounts us as righteous from beginning to end. IF we rebel He will destroy us, and not wash away our sins.
God knows who will in the end choose to follow Him and those who will not. He exists outside of time, He is infinite. If God existed in time, along with us - He could not be wherever 2 or 3 gathered in His name. He'd be limited by time and space. He's limited by neither one of those.
Likewise, the Calvinist God is limited by time and space as well. Whatever will be, will be.
Bible verses need to be interpreted. Any theologian is gonna laugh at you if you justify your position by quoting the Bible only. It's fine if your interpret these verses in this way, but don't be so eager to dismiss other interpretations as false ok?
@@hannijazz3276 False hermeneutics, dismiss this guy ;) There is only one correct interpretation, the goal is to obtain to that which is right and abandon folly.
Listening to Jesse on open theism reminds me of Acts 6:10 "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke."
Open theisms easy to resist. Its a great logic thought experiment to come up with God in this manner, Open theism. Its simple not the God as he has described himself in the bible. Just a God fashioned after ones own reasoning, like any Greek or Roman thelosophy attempting to aim at the truth but falling apart from what we'd call Christianity as revealed in the Bible.
Thank you for not being like so many provisionists who leave open the possibility that the flood of Noah's time could have been a localized flood. This is a truly heretical view of scripture and cannot be forced into the text of scripture. So many apologetics guys think they are so smart in attacking Calvinism and yet they have this huge plank of unbelief in their own eye.
I just watched your show on the early church fathers quotes on free will and that was really encouraging as well.
God will not always strive with man and he gives us enough rope to repent or hang ourselves. It seems like it is going to be a real long rope but in comparison to what awaits us it is but a breath of time.
I am also encouraged that you do open air ministry work. Keep up the good work.
At around 13:00 you are essentially saying that the Molinist perspective is irrational. It seems to me that to make such a claim you would first have to establish that causality can only flow forward in time.
Quantum mechanics suggests otherwise, and so if along with QM we grant that free will agent choice can be logically prior to God's knowledge of said choices, then the illogic that you claim about the Molinist position disappears.
ERROR at 7:00
Calvinists do not deny God's exhaustive knowledge of all contingencies and possibilities. The Calvinist affirms this.
You may find some self-identified Calvinists who will not affirm it, but to represent Calvinists as denying this is an error. Calvinism posits that God comprehends all possible realities, based upon any and all alterations of contingencies, singular or aggregated (which is the infinite knowledge as articulated by open theism), _but also_ asserts that God foreknows precisely which of all these possible combinatory contingencies will infallibly come to pass, by means of his inscrutable foreordination. For a fair representation of Calvinism in its most robust form, I'd refer those interested to Jonathan Edwards' Freedom of the Will Yale Press. This book could be titled "Calvinism: Steel Manned." Even if you're certain you'll disagree, anyone who wishes to be thoroughly-versed on these matters of contingency, volition, freedom, divine knowledge should read it. And you should leave yourself _open_ to some of Edwards' arguments anyways ;)
NOTE: I am NOT a Calvinist but studied it in depth for many years as I once classified myself as reformed, attended Orthodox Presbyterian & Dutch Reformed churches, and read more of Calvin, Edwards, Owen, Vos, and the rest of them than anyone would believe if I told them.
I should say, this is not the place to argue whether all of the layers of reformed doctrines on God's exhaustive knowledge logically hold together _and_ can be supported biblically. That is another question and not the purpose of this comment. But the truth is, the statement made at around 7:00 is factually in error.
~
Side note: Each of these theological camps, seems to me, are given to misrepresentations of all the others. They all also show an eagerness to charge opposing doctrinal systems of heresy, based upon what they perceive as necessary logical _implications_ of the opposing camp's view, not of the opposing view as it is articulated by its proponents. This also is unfair or, at very least, uncharitable.
Any fair-minded observer, regardless of the system they happen to hold, should be honest enough to admit this.
I love this!!! Great teaching!!! Thank you brother! God bless you!
He is a false teacher. The Bible doesn't teach what he's spewing. He is a heretic
ilkin engin i guess jessie should have stayed as a criminal selling dope to children if thats what u mean
ilkin engin dont hate! He can’t do anything about it, God made him that way!
Hi Jesse. Many thanks for an inspirational video. Just a note on the scripture that you quoted in Genesis 22:12. It was not God that said, " Now I know that you fear God", it was the angel of the Lord.
11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”“Here I am,” he replied. 12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”
The Angel of the Lord is Pre-Encarned Jesus.
Genesis 19:24
Exodus 3
Judges 13:22
etc
Why do you think @jesse Morrell that foreknowledge of the free choices made by people is a contradiction? Foreknowledge doesn’t have to be Deterministic! I don’t see any contradictions here but perhaps a forced limitation attributed to God⁉️
I used to be an Open Theist... now I'm back to the "Arminian position"...
The problem is in all this, is that we are tending to view God as a big man Who's "looking forward through history"...
I'm convinced that, from both Scripture and logical necessity, God is both outside and inside time. It is ALL before Him and present to Him. For sure Scripture reveals God giving us very real options as He "descends" to our level (we have to acknowledge "anthropomorphism's to some degree within the texts) "blessings or cursings", "life and death", which show that our free choices are truly free and not "determined"; yet we can't, or should not, imprison Him within our perception of time / reality, and in doing so, probably creating another "idol" of our imagining. Cataphatic and Apophatic Theology need to be kept in balance...
In short, we cannot definitively KNOW that Open Theism is true, so it's unwise to put all ones theological eggs in that basket (though it's an interesting possibility)
Calvinist = Big God, knows it all. Arminian = God is subject to man's will. Open Theist = God is a man with the same limits.
Player A: Wins a game of chess because they knew in advance every move their opponent was going to play.
Player B: Wins a game of chess without knowing what moves their opponent was going to make but is able to react and anticipate.
Which of these two is more impressive? I’d say B.
Why do you say the Arminian perspective makes no sense?
You can decide to do X with your free will, and the fact God knew you were gonna choose that doesn’t make you less free.
You perfectly could have chosen Y, B or C
If you had chosen Y God foreknowledge would have been different.
That's quite a magical void you have in your theology.
If it's true that God desires all men to be save as Scripture teaches then it must actually be possible. But if God already knows who will and will not be saved then God's desire to see all men be saved then God is certainly being IRRATIONAL. This would be like a person watching last years world series knowing that team A won but hoping that team B would prevail. That is an IRRATIIONAL ACT. I hold that it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to be IRRATIONAL. Therefore God does not know who will or will not be saved in an exhaustive sense.
Open Theism is not the best argument against Calvinism. I do agree that Calvinism is not true in that God does not cause evil, and determinism isn’t true. However it makes total sense to say that God has created humans with free will however He also knows the truth value of every future event. He does not cause the choice, but definitely knows the outcome.
Also, you can’t say that every future event is not certain, because any event that does not occur is a non event. And God does not know non events because God does not know absurdities. However God does have knowledge of every future event but God is not the cause of every future event because some events are evil and God does not cause evil.
One scripture that the Calvinist will use is that God works out everything after the counsel of his will they will beat you with that Scripture
SELAHPAUSE I’m not a Calvinist . What does that mean then?
u do realise uve just admitted defeat, by apealing to SCRIPTURE, the foundation of Gods truth revealed to man.
@@fiveSolas879 Incorrect. He was referring to the misuse of a particular Scripture by Calvinists, not whether or not Scripture is the absolute standard of truth.
There are MANY other scriptures to beat Arminians with!
It says all that God accomplishes is “according to his counsel and will,”.
Not, however, that all that takes place is God’s accomplishment in accordance with his counsel and will.
The Bible is is clear - much of what takes place in this world is not God’s will.
Undoubtedly, God detests sin and the suffering, but in all things - including evil things - God is at work to further his sovereign purpose as much as possible.
All that God accomplishes is consistent with “his counsel and will” which Paul specifies as centering on acquiring a people for himself who “have obtained an inheritance…in Christ.”
I am so glad Israel did not decide to return to Egypt to be enslaved. That would have spelled disaster for God’s plan.
I am so glad that Bethlehem did not get destroyed by Babylon even though it is only 10 miles away.
See Closer to Truth John Polkinghorne Does God Know the Future ?
31:15 hyperbolie - like when Americans say “it’s raining cats and dogs”.
Open Theism makes since when you compare it to hyper-Calvinism which is just as unbiblical as open theism. I am Not a Calvinist.
Im looking into open theism and how it relates to neo molinism. Even if god Cannot know what moral free beings will do in principle, is there still a grounding problem? In addition to randomness as an objection to freewill, the problem is compounded as it pertains theism. It, freewil,must come from the void then? Outside the domain of god which is impossible. God has to be pro active every step of the way. Gods moral nessesitys have to be 100 percent. meaning determinism meets predestination. 5 point 0 calvinism.Very nasty.
I disagree with most of the Calvinist TULIP, primarily the LIP, but you are essentially beating up the Strawman when you place all Calvinists and basically all the Christians of history who believe in God's foreknowledge (of freewill choices) into that camp. You could as well talk about how heretical and wrong Arminius was! Remember him?! He was the chief opponent of the Dutch Calvinists of his day. If I remember right, it was the Council at Dort when the Calvinists came up with Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of Saints, going by the well known acronym TULIP. One of the things that Arminius disagree with, among others that are relevant in a different context, was the Reformed view that election was unconditional! Arminius taught against both you, Jesse Morrell, and against Calvin. Calvin said it was unconditional. Arminius said "God knows the future" and he used His foreseen knowledge of the future to condition the election to salvation. In other words, His election to salvation was not unconditional, it was conditioned upon God's foreseen faith in the believer.
So if you teach against Calvinists because they believe God knows the future, you must also teach against Arminianism, Lutheranism, Romanism, Methodism, Anglicanism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Episcopalianism, not to mention your teaching is also against one of your favorites, Charles Finney, an Arminian who believed not only in God's knowledge of our future free-will choices, but also in the Perseverance of Saints.
I am convinced, after having been in YWAM for 5 1/2 years and formerly teaching and arguing for your viewpoints on Moral Government Theology as taught there and then picked up by Gregory Boyd, and afterwards going through a complete transformation by study of the Scriptures, that what I have said above is accurate and true. Still, if I am wrong in any of this, I would appreciate you pointing it out to me. I hate being wrong! It is not pleasing to God and in most cases is a sin against my neighbor!
Doesn't Open Theism deny the basic non compromising attributes of God? Most every definition i see for it clearly says... "He has made His knowledge of, and plans for, the future conditional upon our actions. Though omniscient, God does not know what we will freely do in the future."
Hmm, isn't this complete nonsense? How can God be omniscient but then doesn't know who will be saved. And for that problem Eph 1:3-7 would also be problematic? For the Eph passage "WHO" predestined "who" and "When" was the choice made.
I think if you have to vindicate God then you are answering a question that is a wrong question. Therefore you get a wrong answer. Because you answer a question that is based in a fallacy. Wrong question = wrong answer.
Also it seems your argument equates foreknowledge with predestination.
A CONSISTENT believer in free will has to believe in Open Theism because the omniscience or knowledge of God must perfectly correspond to the nature of reality. And to say that we have a free will so that the future has alternative possibilities and yet God foreknows all future events as certainties, is to say that the knowledge of God does not correspond to the nature of reality. It means that God does not know the future as it really is.
bibletheology
Hi there!
A very interesting video I think. Good job!
I have heard this claim before, both from you and James White. I don´t see that inconsistency though. Maybe you can expand on it?
First let me tell you how I think about these things so you can respond to me; In the Bible it says that God knows the end from the beginning. I would take that to mean that God is outside of time, as aware of what is going to happen as He is of the things that has already happened.
In that view, God can see all possible outcomes, including what people will choose and what the consequences of those choices are, and therefore know exactly what will happen. He knows the future, not because He determined the choices, but because He knows all choices that will be made.
I think you would agree that after choices are made, only 1 line will remain of the web. The other options are excluded as choices are made. In the end only 1 line will remain, what actually happens. If God knows the end from the beginning He will know what will happen, but the choices that led there were made by free will.
I saw your comment below to Richardfriend48. If God sees all from the beginning, He can also foresee what will happen if and when He intervenes in history. He could know it as a certainty that you would be in a car accident if He does not intervene and also for a certainty that you will live if He does intervene. And He knows what He will do, so He knows what will happen.
Just as He said to Saul that if He had obeyed He would have established Him forever. But God knew Saul would not obey and already prophecied that the Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah.
If calvinists were right, this statement from God would be dishonest; God had decreed His downfall and there were never a possibilty for Sauls obedience.
If open theists are right, then God could not have known for certain Saul would fall, making the earlier prediction uncertain.
I realise that this is a very complicated matter and I hope I have not misrepresented your view.
+bibletheology That is ridiculous! What you said makes no sense! The simple answer is that we have a free will, and God knows the choices we will make, so therefore fully knows the future. Why do you unnecessarily limit the knowledge of God, as if He is not Almighty and All Knowing? Open theism is false and really unnecessary. For what reason would you believe such a doctrine? Of what value is there to limit the foreknowledge of God, when the scriptures do NOT.
What do you say to Revelations 17:8?
+Thomas Fryxelius Excellent and humble response!
God exists outside of time. He does not need our rules. God knows all possible futures (from our standpoint), and God knows the beginning, the middle, and the end (from His standpoint) simultaneously, because God exists outside of time.
We have free will, but to say that God doesn't know what we are going to do places limits on God.
Folks, This fellow is teaching heresy. Don’t believe what he or anyone tells you the scriptures say. Go to the scriptures yourself and ask the Spirit of God to give you understanding. Search the scriptures yourself- Acts 17:11
Isaiah 5 is saying that Israel did not obey God. Aka wild grapes. He is not shocked by this he is telling Israel has disobeyed.
It seems both Calvinism and Open theism are trying to solve a false dilemma. God exist outside of time, meaning he does not exist in successions of time like human beings do. He already sees all things as they where, currently are, and how they will be, in the eternal present. Determinism or "Calvinism" comes from a misunderstanding of a few text which then are systematically place over the Bible.
just became a open Theist! I totally agree and see it from Genesis to Revelation. I dont see any inconsistency in this..and scripture interprets scripture.
Ur explaination that God did not know how man would be so sinful.... This is heresy.... God is omniscient and is all knowing.... He would never be taken by surprise because He is all knowing.... Your open theism has crossed all limits and hence undermined the very omniscient nature of God...
Old heresy repacked with modern terminology
Hi Jesse, Mike Saia here. You say that God said something twice, but it was actually three times: Jeremiah 7:31; 19:5; 32:35 “And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind.” “and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;”“And they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.” Sorry if this is a repeat of something someone else said.
Yes I knew about Jeremiah 7:31 but because it said "neither came it into my heart" (KJV) I didn't include it in my reference. But looking at it now, it is the same Hebrew word as in the other ones so it should be.
I am not a calvinist and I do believe that God does give us free will... The freedom to make choices whether to do good or evil..... But ur open theism suffers irreparable errors.....
I thought GOD is all knowing
God is all knowing . God knows everything that can possibly be known .
@@Miskeen-33ope stop redefining words if God doesn't know the future than he isn't ALL knowing.
Also if your God isn't all knowing then he isn't absolute therefore he isn't God
@Muddy562 not actually true but I changed my mind I beleive God knows the future now I'm orthodox
For G-d it's certain for man it's not, it's that simple.
I find this to be funny. First you only know what God let’s you know by his Word. There’s 100s of prophecies of Chris alone of things to come.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
This is foolishness and a waist of Time
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
The neglected third leg of open theism. Excellent presentation Jesse! Some open theologians are lacking for sure, but your teaching in this video is superb. You have well introduced two legs of open theism, logic and the Bible. I have no problem there. However, there is yet another strong indicator of open theism that makes for a complete case. It is quantum physics.
To be brief, each microscopic item, from a molecule, down to an atom, down to a sub atomic particle, has utter randomness to it. Even if you could somehow know the precise location and velocity of an atom (that alone is impossible) you could not determine precisely where it will be the next instant nor its velocity then.
Now this matters in the real world due to the properties of chaos. Chaos has two characteristics, randomness, and attractors. The best example is the temperature of the weather. The precise temperature of each minute of each day is hard to predict. And as you go forward into the future, you simply cannot with any certainty know the temperature. There are attractors though. One is it is hotter in the day than night, another is it is hotter in the summer than winter. So you will have a pretty good handle on things to at least some level, but never could you know the exact temperature any appreciable distance into the future, despite how much you know of the present. For, there is inherent randomness in even atoms so eventually this unpredictability will work its way out into the real world.
This also is known at the butterfly effect. For even the flight of a butterfly across a field will cause minute changes in the weather that days later, will amplify and result in a different weather than if the butterfly didn't fly across that field.
Now scientists have measured human brain waves. And guess what? They are chaotic too. Therefore, even our thoughts, our actions have a spontaneity, a non predictable element to them. Why is this? So God can know us as persons. With free will and independence of actions that even He can not fully predict. This is how He can have fellowship with us. Does all this randomness and unpredictability show a limited God? No, rather it is a fantastic creation of His, so that even with an all-knowing God, He can still have a spontaneous, real relationship with creations.
It is apparent that God knows all. The Bible makes it clear that He has a perfect knowledge of the past and present. Normally, you would think that God would then be able to predict all the future due to His unlimited intelligence and knowledge of the present and past. But, no, we see that God purposely designed utter randomness into the tiniest imaginable bits of reality to make the Universe and his people refreshing and interesting to Him. We are not robots that He would know all future actions of. So we can see that God created this Universe and us people for his glory and pleasure. Remember, open theism is not centered around mankind's free will or God's limited knowledge of the future, but rather centered about God.
This is not free will theology, it is free will idolatry.
Jesse arminianism does not believe in free will rather a doctrine called preveniant grace.
would you like to come on my show to defend open theism?
"When a calvinist uses the word sovereignty you can know what he means is puppetry" LOL
Yes, according to Calvin, that statement is true. Know your Calvin. "“First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121),"
Yes according to Calvin that statement is true. Know your Calvin. "Calvin writes: “What we must prove is that single events are ordered by God and that every event comes from his intended will. Nothing happens by chance.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 4)"
Yes according to Calvin that statement is true. Know your Calvin. "Calvin writes: “When he uses the term permission, he means that the will of God is the supreme and primary cause of everything, because nothing happens without his order of permission.” (The Institutes of Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 8,)" That' means babies that are raped by pedophiles are done so by God's decree and will. .... dude... you follow a sicko psychopath that also had 35 women's hands chopped off, and called it Gods decree and will, then had them tortured for 30 days, the the ones who did not die under torture or disease in a dungeon, were burned slowly with wet wood, to make them scream longer. GET IT?
@@athaskins chance is not biblical. if something is random, then God isnt incontrol. thats a false god
Calvinist.....Does God know all things?
Me.....hmm....Does all mean all?
What?
You also misrepresented Calvinist here.
And the reason why Cult didn't convince me because they used the same method you use in this presentation, "proof texting"
Jesse is good at misrepresenting Calvinism. It's easy to do when you don't truly know nor understand it.
Just like Calvinists misrepresent open Theism because they don't understand it?
You also can't say God changed His mind if the future is settled and He knows it will happen with certainty. I have had arminians say that to me.
I dont know Jessie, I believe God knew with certainty that Adam and Eve would fall, just like He knew that Lucifer would rebel and become Satan. Omniscience requires to know all, including any and all contingency as well as the final outcome of the choice made what He does not do is influence the choice or final outcome. In the case of Nineveh one could say that the reason for sending Jonah was that God knew with Certainty that Nineveh would repent and even though another choice existed unbelief. The future though many possibilities exist God being All Knowing still knows the choice and the outcome. When the Jews began to sacrifice their children to false gods He was saying that this type of Sacrifice was never commanded by Him nor did He even think of such a sacrifice as being an acceptable thing to do. I must admit you got me on the sacrifice of Isaac when God said Now I know. Anyway blessing Jessie love your stuff brother just not comfortable yet with Open Theism. May the Lord our Savior continue to bless and make you fruitful in what He has given you to do on His Behalf.
I have seen Christians unable to answer an unbeliever who questions: "if God knew for certain Lucifer and Adam were going to rebel why did He create them in the first place?" a 5 point T.U.L.I.P. Calvinist will answer God predestined Lucifer and Adam to sin. Calvinists believe God has predestined the future of all mankind. men are born with their destinies already decided for them. an Arminian (you) will say God knew for certain that Lucifer and Adam would rebel but He created them anyway. BOTH answers are unreasonable but the Calvinist is the worst. if we accept what the Scriptures teach. that God designed the future to be partly uncertain and open to possibilities, allowing free will reasonable humans to decide the outcome of events, we would have an answer for the critics.
the Scriptures TEACH THIS. God is omniscient, yet He restrains this attribute (when He considers it proper to do so) allowing humans to decide the future leaving it open to contingencies. bellow I posted some Scriptures that teach this. just like there are Scriptures that teach the future is certain. God decides what is certain and what is uncertain. this is how the omniscience of God and the free will of man coexist.
"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”- therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life." Gen. 3:22-24
"And the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart." Gen. 6:6
“I greatly regret that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.” 1 Sam. 15:11
"And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel."
1 Sam. 15:35
"....we must also grant that God foresees nothing as absolutely and inevitably certain which He has made contingent; and, because He has designed it to be contingent, therefore He cannot know it as absolutely and inevitably certain. I conclude that God, although omniscient, is not obliged, in consequence of this, to know all that He can know; no more than He is obliged, because He is omnipotent, to do all that He can do." Adam Clarke
I appreciate the lesson I'm not one to take theology views but most do get propagated so its hard to avoid them,but I know Jesus would not have prayed for another way in the garden of Gethsemane if he knew God could not make another way he prayed 3times.
Jesse said their are infinite possibilities. Its Calvinist that say there is only one way. Your reading the wrong bible or taking it out of context. God said there are infinite ways to him in Jesse's copy. All things are possible!
You are answering so many questions I have had all my life. Thank you.
You better go study elsewhere this man is deceived and deceiving others
Murphy Itzyue explain, because this judgment is a dumb judgment.
I'm a former Calvinist and interested in open theism. I don't get (@circa8min) you talk about that a Calvinist wouldn't agree God knows possibilities and options. But I would say, as my Calvinist self, God does know all options but he also knows ones concomitant desires and context perfectly so would know with certainty what one WILL choose. One has the option to eat the cookie or not. God knows, if you DO eat, that you WOULD eat before, but also knows the option to not eat (and all of its contingent possibilities).
So, as with your "stick& branch" diagram, the Calvinists, as far as I see it, would also look like a branch but all possible but not chosen possibilities would be a dotted line and the chosen possibility bring solid. If course this is simplified to two options.
I had the same thought. It wasn't a good example of how an open theist could falsely accuse a Calvinist if denying God's knowledge. It would be better to argue that a God who predetermines everything literally has no thinking to do.
Question: under open theism, where does prophecy fit in?
How did God in His word fortell hundreds of events?
Laura Kakoschke Bc God ordains the future... “declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,'”
Isaiah 46:10
Sometimes, we see prophecy as being settled and determined by God. Sometimes, we see God putting forth prophecies that are conditional in nature with opposing outcomes.
Yes but wouldn’t this lead to an unstable prophetic word because of the influence of freewill beings? I’m sure you’re not saying God meticulously intervenes in these instances and interrupts their choice!?
probably it's something like, God's plan, something that is His pleasure to do and therefore He will make that come to pass no matter how hard it is. If humans disagree, then just scare them just like when God made Zakaria mute, by that the plans will come to pass
Prophecy is God telling you ahead of time a particular event he will manipulate into happening.
The fact that the prophecies are fulfilled demonstrates his power moreso in addition to his vast knowledge.
I'm not a calvinist but I disagree with this view. I'm with William lane craig on this one.
Why?
I think it is horrible anthropomorphic language when we attribute for knowledge to God which results in viewpoint as these. God doesn't have foreknowledge. He is not looking through a lens to perceive the future. He knows what may , what can happen and what will happen. God just knows!!! This isn't a Calvinistic view, this is Scripture.
wes sam I think you're missing that he's describing the "may, can and will" part of what you're describing with differentiated clarity. What God soverignly controls utterly in accordance with a specified plan, transpires utterly. God cannot be thwarted. He is utterly and absolutely powerful. However, he is also free and soveriegn over the application of his power. In other words he has pristine control, not only over others, but over how much control he wishes to employ... which means that if something is important enough (like the development and fall-out of real free will choices on creatures that can only truly love if they can potentially fail), then he can meticulously control, with his perfect foreknowledge, what aspects of the unfolding of history remain unsettled until they aren't. Every outcome and movement of a molecule is precisely known in all their vast array of potential outcomes, and for each he is prepared. Thus, he is "surprised" by sin, and yet he knew you before the foundation of the world. He is the same yesterday today and forever, and yet also active, dynamic, completely in the "now" and yet never limited by it due to his omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence.
This allows for God's personal attributes to be truly real, not mere anthropomorphisms, he really does experience with us, he really is grieved, he really does extend grace to all universally and yet only to some at a time due to unfolding of history. The seed sown on a weeds, rocks and god soil are all sown sincerely. God's love really is extended to all. Both God's power, plans and ability area ll retained while the delegated implications of free agency remain. Your evil really is yours. God didn't decree it. It "didn't enter into his mind" in that he didn't will it, but he is never caught unawares of anything.
But I'm yet fully aware that these best efforts with the best words I can find are mere shadows in the rain. I can't even remotely attempt to really understand of describe it. Our systems of thought must always been soft enough to allow for the wild untamed nature of God's truth and reality. That's the trouble with systematics. They're beautiful in their castle of cards like precision, but then God does something wonderful and they al come tumbling down. As C. S. Lewis encouraged to all who read Mere Christianity, "If this chapter isn't of help to you... skip it". He had no illusions that theology was a good and noble thing, but it could never really crack open the mysteries of God, it could only grope for the shape of God's good things.
Just because we have free will it does not mean God doesn’t know the future of everything otherwise prophecies like when The Lord told king Saul he’d die wouldn’t be true now would they? There is a difference between a warning and a prophecy. Warnings do not negate God’s foreknowledge of everything as a matter of fact warnings prove God’s foreknowledge. Why does it have to be either calvinism or open theism? Why can’t it be free will and God’s omniscience?
many prophecies didn't come true in the bible...they are known as conditional prophecies...God said the kingdom would remain in Saul's family forever, but that prophecy failed...
There is a big difference between God knowing what will happen in the future and God causing it to happen. Since God is not bound by time, he is able to know today every event that will transpire in the future. Knowing this however, does not take away from man having freewill. So just because God knows what we will do in every situation does not mean he interfers with our freewill. The problem between the two theologies is rooted in a poor understanding of time, and God's ability to step outside of it.
If I had a time machine, I could go 30 years into the future and then say with absolute certainty that my daughter will do such and such a thing on such and such a day. Knowing this though does not mean that I predestined her to do it and that she had no choice in doing it.
TrustinJC The whole idea of "stepping out of time" would itself be a succession of events, a chronological sequence of action, and would therefore ITSELF require that God experiences time. Where would God find the time to step out and in to time? If God were outside of time, He could not step into time, because such would be a "before" and "after" which requires time.
God knows the future, not because He steps out of time and takes a peak, but because He predestines future events, knows the hearts of men, and the plans of the devil. But He doesn't know all the future with certainty because it is not all fixed.
If God simply knew the future because He was outside of time, He wouldn't make any plans or predetermine anything at all, because He would already know what He Himself was going to do before He had a chance to decide it.
Fascinating discussion. I'll but in with my 2-cents... Both the Bible and science (I think) agree that both space and time have a beginning. So prior to that beginning there is only the infinite totality of God, the creator. There is no space or time, just God, who is infinite. So God must then exist outside of - or dimensionally infinitely higher than - all time as well as space. As for God knowing what God is going to do before he decides to do it, that's a good time-travel paradox, and difficult to wrap my mortal, finite, 3-dimensional mind around, but God is not subject to the same rules as we are. Also, it doesn't seem right to place limits (such as our crude, linear perception of time) on God. It's interesting also to contemplate time as having far more dimensionality than we realize. When we look through telescopes, we have the capability of seeing far into the past and watching events that have already happened in the cosmos *as they are happening*. That's pretty amazing in itself, so why could God not be able to look forward, past our present, considering that He is right there at the beginning of time, and possibly time itself is far more relative and flexible than we perceive it as. Anyway, I'll shut up, but I couldn't help interjecting. :)
tweck99999 Some good points, and well argued.
+tweck99999 The Bible does not say time has a beginning. It never shows or states that God created time. In fact, if God is outside of time then he is static and cannot act, or create. Because creation itself is a before and after sequence which requires time. God did not create time, time is a consequence of existence in general. Therefore, time has always existed along with God.
Wow, that is really fascinating! I'm going to have to think on that.
Okay, I've thought on it!! :) :D
So if God created everything but didn't create time... Wouldn't saying that God is bound by human mathematical concepts be too limiting?
God is not material in nature and therefore isn't bound by any kind of temporal or human construct that we can imagine.
If God can see time from beginning to end, which an omniscient being, I would say, must... then wouldn't it stand to reason that God exists outside of temporal reality as we understand it?
Jesus Himself says in Matthew 19:26 "...with God all things are possible."
Which I would take to mean that things impossible for humans (in the context, it is being "perfect" so that one can enter Heaven) are possible for God.
So God doesn't need time in order to create. It may be something that we humans don't understand, but then we are temporal, mortal creatures.
When Paul, in Corinthians, is instructing us to look to Heaven rather than worldly things, he clearly compares the temporal to the eternal, which would suggest that God exists outside of temporal reality:
"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."
this was a masterful presentation about the difference between contingent and certain events. this position makes man accountable for his behavior, which is a theme supported 100% by the Bible in both Covenants, Rom. 2:6; Psalm 62:12; Jer. 17:10; Prov. 24:11, 12; Matt. 16:27; 2 Cor. 11:15; 2 Tim. 4:14 how could God repay man for his behavior when it was Him Who predestined man's conduct in the first place????? Open theism is supported by HUNDREDS of Scriptures, makes biblical sense and glorifies God's impeccable integrity that forbids Him to behave like a scoundrel, the way Calvinists portray Him.
in the insane asylum theology of Calvinism, God predestined every evil event that has taken place in the history of mankind, including the fall of Lucifer, Adam and Eve, the murder of Abel by his brother Cain, plus all the mass murders, rapes, prostitution, thefts, slanders, drunkenness, orgies, fornication, pedophile acts, abortions etc. etc.
their view of God is a blasphemous defamation of His character. John Calvin taught that God forces men to commit wicked acts. anyone who agrees with this garbage can't be saved. and for those Calvinists who may say I am misrepresenting Calvin, here are Calvin's words: “The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as HE COMMANDS, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even FORCED to do him service” John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11
“I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam’s children have FALLEN BY GOD'S WILL.” John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 4
“But since he foresees future events only by reason of the fact that HE DECREED THAT THEY TAKE PLACE, they vainly raise a quarrel over foreknowledge, when it is clear that all things take place rather by his determination and bidding.” John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6
BTW Adam Clarke was also an open theist. read his commentary on Acts 2:23
question for you: why do u use the KJV? there are other Bibles that use the same Byzantine manuscripts as the KJV. the NKJV, KJV 2000, American KJV, WEB, JP Green's Literal Translation. we don't speak like that anymore. besides, God does not repent like man does. God is sinless. He changes His mind, He regrets and relents. I know u know that but your audience DOES NOT. many OSAS sin defenders use the obscurity of the KJV in this issue to teach repentance does not mean to abandon sins.
"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Jonah 3:10
"Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it." NKJV
"God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way. God relented of the disaster which he said he would do to them, and he didn't do it." WEB
have u abandoned fellowship with Jed Smock? has Jed repented of his apostasy?
You said a mouthful amd i just want to touch on one part.
God repented.
And you fell in the trap of modern bibles by saying:
God is sinless.
Yes God is sinless without spot or blemish.
But you need to read that verse in context
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
God didn't repent because of sin
God repented because of a decision that He made
Repent means to turn away from something
Repent is not synonymous with sin, but that is exactly what all the modern bible versions do.
Look up in a KjV every time repent is used the majority of time it associated with a particular event or action... not with sinful behavior
God bless
@@twistedtitan5485 did u read part of my comment which actually agrees with you? "God does not repent like man does. God is sinless. He changes His mind, He regrets and relents." KJV uses repent for both regretting and departing from sin in the OT. u are correct. however, in the NT repent, repentance, almost always means to feel sorry for one's sins and abandoning them except in Matt. 21:29, 32; 27:3; 2 Cor. 7:8; Heb. 7:21 where another Greek word METAMELOMAI is used which means regret, remorse. this is what Judas Iscariot felt, not real repentance METANOIA.
Jesus quoted an OT passage to describe what repentance means.
"The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." Matt. 12:41
this is the OT passage the Lord used to describe repentance when it refers to mankind, (I don't read the KJV but for your sake I will use it here)
"And the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey. And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, LET THEM TURN EVERYONE FROM HIS EVIL WAY AND FROM THE VIOLENCE THAT IS IN THEIR HANDS. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? AND GOD SAW THEIR WORKS, THAT THEY TURN FROM THEIR EVIL WAY; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Jonah 3:1-10
repentance is an integral part of saving faith. Jesus included it in the Gospel, "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:47 NKJV
Jesus came to call sinners to repent, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Luke 5:32
"But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Matt. 9:13
the apostles preached it, "Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you."
Acts 8:22
"Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent," Acts 17:30
"testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 20:21
"but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance." Acts 26:20
"Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?" Rom. 2:4
"For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death." 2 Cor. 7:10
"And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will." 2 Tim. 2:24-26
"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Pet. 3:9
yes. repentance means to abandon sin. my point is WHY use a bible version that does not differentiate between God regretting, relenting or changing His mind from man repenting of his sins?
God knows everything
God can know the beginning from the end
Everything here can be refuted by just defining the words. This man is extremely ignorant. This is a great example of double talk.
Amen Tracy!
God cannot repent. That accuses God of evil.
Repent just means to turn out go the other way. God has no need to repent from sin for obvious reasons. But he does repent from other things. Repenting from sleeping in past 9 am. Is not the same as Repenting from sin you have committed.
In the case of Jonah when God said that Nineveh would be destroyed in 40 days Jessie that was contingent upon their repentance at the preaching of Jonah. Yet I still believe He knew the outcome.
@Jonathan Singleton Exactly. Open theism, the extra bible thought experiment to come up with a God fashioned after ones own mind. The result of being obsessed with humans having the most powerful will to mold God into less than.
Jonah said Nineveh will be destroyed in 40 days. Then Jonah had a hissy fit when they repented in spite of a message with no mercy extended.
5:22 bookmark
Somebody throw a match on this straw man. 🔥 Exhaustive divine foreknowledge is a solid doctrine shared by orthodox Christians. The war against Calvinism is a red herring. He isn’t even tryin represent Calvinist teachings. Calvinists do believe in free will and sovereignty because they are biblical. Logic is not God. God is God. This guy’s logic is broke.
sorry mate, "free will" and the calvinist buzz word of "sovereignty" are literally oxymorons. and to say "logic is not God" is just foolish. 1, nobody claims logic is God. But 2, God is logical, otherwise you read His word in vain thinking you can understand anything lol
Big Dog
Hello friend
You seem to be equating intelligibility and logic. Logic is a systemized way of thinking developed primarily by Aristotle. Not all intelligence is assessed through the means of logic. There is also tacit knowledge as well as revelatory knowledge to name a few. Please don’t tell me all of our logic can be summed up through a systematic means of assessment. Unless you are a scientist or a lawyer and need to deduce or assess evidentially. These definitive means will fall short in describing concepts such as love and truth.
What about all the prophecies? What about the book of revelation? +bibletheology
Taxi cab driver theology! At you least you dressed for the part.
I was gonna say fisherman theology, but I don't live in the city.
Hahaha...right on Mark.
In Gen 6, just because God stated that He regreted that He made man, does not mean that God didn't know they would come to that point. That is a huge assumption, and I believe a wrong one. To think that God did not know that is certainly saying that God is not omniscient
RichardFriend48 Omniscience is knowing all that can be known and knowing reality as it is, not as it isn't. God knew that they might sin because their future had that possibility. If God knew that mankind would sin but created them anyways, how could He then repent of creating them when He sees them sinning? That makes no sense. He sent the flood because sin is not what He created them for.
God created all of time at ONCE. The beginning and the end. We are looking at it from a temporal perspective, but God's love rains down on all of time simultaneously. So God' perspective isn't based in time. It's non-temporal - it's *eternal*. Meaning *timeless*.
How sad.
Interesting. Your chart for determinism is a line. For every oposite reaction etc.( the angle of reflection is equal to the angle of incidence.) Line two, is a fractal or a branching tree.each fractal must be in turn different as each of our means and motivation R , by nessesity, diferent. We R all unique.By the way, in contrast, each fractal output must always exceed any input especially when fractal meets fractal ( compound complication) This appears to make CCFs unintelligible. Plus, does this not render molinisms " given what you DID do, you WILL do- again impossible?WE create the situation a new each time. We R proactive here. The situation bends to us. Or, who was that greek cat that said: you cant step into the same river twice".
the bible presupposes "living theism" because God is alive, this is known as open theism in the modern era of lingo....all other theologies are known as dead theism, because they manufacture gods who cannot think, change, adjust to the circumstances at hand, show mercy, because they are dead and outside of time..(these gods are the figment of the bottomless pit of mans imagination, ie Plato) which has no life like Jeremiah said ie "dead theism"........ HOWEVER, what dosent change about God are His principles....be blessed Willie & Bonnie
My first exposure to the subject of Open Theism was when I viewed this video a few years back. I had never heard of the concept. Your arguments are very thorough and thought-provoking. Subsequently, I have seen a lot more on the subject by other open theists. I hadn't given it much further thought until recently when I came across an article by someone named John M. Frame. Amongst other things, he says the following: "How then should we understand God’s “relenting?” For one thing, God states as a general policy in Jer. 18:5-10 that if he announces judgment and people repent, he will relent; similarly if he pronounces blessing and people do evil. In other words, relenting is part of God’s unchanging plan, not a change forced on him by his ignorance." Hmmm.
Question:
If the future is totally open, how does the father know the day and hour of Christ's second coming?
Wouldn't it be different possible days and hours contingent upon our choices?
Rick Mendez jessie never said all things are open, but he said “ not all future events are predetermined “ listen again
Just reading (not representing a view) anyone who is the "the primary cause of the action" could know when they were going to do it.
Dubya- yeah but that has to fit in with other sequence of events such as Jesus birth was caused by god but that sequence of events was exactly 14 generations of his blood line meaning that history and future events all revolve around the one who is predetermining prophecy. Our moves now today is setting the stage for armegedon so our free will choices are accounted for when the father says he knows the day and hour
It means the Father is in control of when the day and hour will be, not that He can see when it will be for certain. Compare to Acts 1:6-7
That would be one of the predetermined events like The crucifixion etc
Jesse Morrell, why do ignore the exegesis & interpretation from which the Calvinist assertion comes from, as if no one before us you had anything good to say on the matter? It's just you and your Bible on some island right?
Allow me...
Genesis 6:6...
6. "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth The repentance which is here ascribed to God does not properly belong to him, but has reference to our understanding of him. For since we cannot comprehend him as he is, it is necessary that, for our sakes he should, in a certain sense, transform himself. That repentance cannot take place in God, easily appears from this single considerations that nothing happens which is by him unexpected or unforeseen. The same reasoning, and remark, applies to what follows, that God was affected with grief. Certainly God is not sorrowful or sad; but remains forever like himself in his celestial and happy repose: yet, because it could not otherwise be known how great is God’s hatred and detestation of sin, therefore the Spirit accommodates himself to our capacity. Wherefore, there is no need for us to involve ourselves in thorny and difficult questions, when it is obvious to what end these words of repentance and grief are applied; namely, to teach us, that from the time when man was so greatly corrupted, God would not reckon him among his creatures; as if he would say, ‘This is not my workmanship; this is not that man who was formed in my image, and whom I had adorned with such excellent gifts: I do not deign now to acknowledge this degenerate and defiled creature as mine.’ Similar to this is what he says, in the second place, concerning grief; that God was so offended by the atrocious wickedness of men, as if they had wounded his heart with mortal grief: There is here, therefore, an unexpressed antithesis between that upright nature which had been created by God, and that corruption which sprung from sin. Meanwhile, unless we wish to provoke God, and to put him to grief, let us learn to abhor and to flee from sin. Moreover, this paternal goodness and tenderness ought, in no slight degree, to subdue in us the love of sin; since God, in order more effectually to pierce our hearts, clothes himself with our affections. This figure, which represents God as transferring to himself what is peculiar to human nature, is called ἀνθρωποπάθεια"
- John Calvin
I think we Catholics are kind of in between those two views. We believe in free will and that God is outside of time & space. God knows past, present and future in one moment. It's also why the fallen Angels can't sort of dig their way out of Hell or turn back. They are created differently than humans. One chance is what they had.
Also, just because God knows the future doesn't mean he caused it. We Catholics totally agree we have free will.
Will God's middle knowledge, for example, saved David from king Saul killing him when David asked God if he stayed where he was at will he die by Saul?, and God said yes if he stayed. So David left the area. If God has middle knowledge about this situation about David, why not everything else in the future? I think the middle knowledge of God goes against open theism.
Is there anything that God doesn't know? Then he isn't God. God is knowledge, read proverbs 8 and 9. Job 38:4 and John 1:1
I believe you are making the same mistake Calvinists do in your reasoning. You are thinking one dimensionally. God is both outside of time, and acts within the time which He created. God can know all courses while knowing the ultimate course, while changing the paths of lives at the same time. I think you sell yourself short by taking away the element of certain knowledge in God. God can be both Flexible and Certain all at once....especially in regards to well established events like the 2nd Coming and Final Judgment. Time is not above God.
time is part of creation, God is at all points of past present and future. or are you saying God is bound by time? God still knows of all the possiblities that could (have) happen(ed) even if God sees what is. or is God bound by our limited minds.
Do you have children? There is a cost to any endevour. Sorry had to stop watching, I ask for your prayers as you have mine.
Isn't it possible to believe that God knows what will happen, and what could have happened as well?
I'd imagine, that half of being omniscient is the obvious; knowing what will be. The other half, oddly, is knowing that it didn't HAVE to be that way... Does that make sense? Thanks
In an updated response to dear brother Kerrigan Skelly's 'Why I Am Not An Open Theist', I will confine my comments in this thread to his 'Philosophical' reasons why he is not an open theist (yet). His reason is a straw man argument where he cites as examples from life and Scripture several things which Open Theists readily admit to and therefore do not constitute a reason to reject an open future. His reasons focus on specific examples from human experience (which we know to be sequential) where certain knowledge of the future produces responses of grief and regret. Open Theists do not have a problem with certain foreknowledge in specific cases. The problem is with exhaustive certain foreknowledge and the difference is a huge gulf of difference. Instances of specific certain foreknowledge being consistent with the existence of grief in anticipation does not constitute a valid reason to reject the open view. His reason is insufficient to dismiss arguments against exhaustive foreknowledge. He does not address how we are able to freely make a choice contrary to a course of choosing that is eternally foreseen.
Brother Skelly then applied his claim that certain foreknowledge is consistent with grief to Genesis 6 with the flood. But he just barely mentions it and moves on. I would stop him at this passage because if Skelly as a father foresaw with certainty that his own child would commit a specific sin under a specific situation at a specific time, would Skelly attempt to instruct his child thereby putting forth efforts with the expectation to CHANGE the course of the future? All efforts imply the expectation to change the future as far as it is believed to be changeable. Would Skelly attempt to improve the quality of life for a dying relative? Of course! Why? Because we all assume (that's not a bad word) that we can change the future as far as the power we do have.
Brother Skelly simply ignores or dismisses that fact. In an open cosmology it is possible for God and angels and man to have specific cases of certain foreknowledge of many events. But in the closed system it IS closed precisely because the certain foreknowledge is EXHAUSTIVE. In a closed system one who sees everything happening with certainty does not feel the grief nor reasonably put for efforts to change the future. In a closed system, in an Arminian one, God saw the violence on the earth in Noah's time but could not make any further efforts to either prevent or to stop the sins of mankind. Brother Skelly wants to retain that God does indeed feel, which is a good reason for Skelly to believe the future is partly open, but such a God cannot exercise freedom to do contrary to the course of what he foresees himself doing. Such a God had the power to prevent such sin as filled the earth in Noah's time, but could only grieve about it until He saw Himself repenting for having made man on the earth and destroying everyone with a flood of global proportions.
So we come to the million dollar question for Arminians. In spite of God's grief over what he certainly foresees man choosing, why doesn't God make any efforts other than the ones he certainly foresees himself doing? Why didn't he stop the Vegas massacre? Are you saying he COULD have stopped it, or have let the shooter die in his mother's womb or something, but didn't stop it because God had a purpose allowing it? A plan for it? Once you put a PLAN for allowing or permitting a sin, you have predestination come into play for EVERY sin going back to Lucifer's fall.
It's such a slippery slope. How does arguing like that differ substantially from a Calvinist who claims that God doesn't damn the non-elect, rather he chose to predestine the elect because of grace and nothing else?
There is no difference between saying God chose not to elect some to salvation and that God chose not to prevent some certain sin because he had a plan for it?
G-d gives us the opportunities of possibilities but G-d is certain of the future, the book
of Revelation is a testament to his foreknowledge. G-d warned Ninevah of the inevitable
destruction but he gave them an alternative through Jonahs obedience, ultimately G-d
knew what they would choose.
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
God surely planed salvation and the coming of Christ before the creation of man and if Jesus was to meet every prophecy then it had to be planned by a fantastic mind...the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem oh sorry to late you missed that one but ok we will weave it in some how! ( I am not a Calvinist by the way bro) Just finding the teaching not sitting quiet right! Hope this example is helpful..God bless
In each of the views, Calvinism, Arminianism and Open Theism, God foresees exactly the same thing. The difference is one of classification, where the first two views would say there’s one definite future which God sees, and the other futures are counterfactuals or middle knowledge, whereas Open Theists would say the whole caboodle is the future.
G-d was telling Jonah and the world that rebellion WILL destroy you, that is a fact and
an absolute. Unless your heart is hardened like Pharaoh than your destruction is sure.
Sin leads to destruction, that is an absolute but if one humbles themselves and repents before G-d
then G-d will repent from the coming destruction.
so your theology can be summed up as man is in control and not God...so guess we are more powerful than God. Yeah good one!