Here's a suggestion. If you're a "reformed" pastoral candidate, try being honest and transparent about what you believe right from your first conversation. If you believe God condemns someone to Hell before they are born, communicate that CLEARLY to the search committee. If you believe that the "doctrines of grace" means God is the active and specific cause of evil acts, HONESTLY communicate what you believe. If you believe that when you get to heaven you will be ecstatic that your mother, not one of the predetermined elect, is suffering in hell, then SAY SO. If reformed candidates would be honest, not smugly confident in their superior understanding of the Gospel, they would generally be shown the door. You would not even be given the opportunity to "reform" anything. Josh told the church he believed in plurality of the elders. A weak attempt at transparency. But did he tell them his views of soteriology? No, he did not. He waited until he had been hired. He took a long view to change the church. Duplicitous. Deceitful. Do you really think your goal of "reformation" is a good enough excuse for dishonesty? If so, change your vocation. You defame the name of Jesus. "He who practices deceit shall not dwell within my house; He who speaks falsehood shall not maintain his position before me." Psalms 101:17
1. Lie to their faces about what you believe. 2. Be patient in building up your posse. 3. Avoid words like "Reformed" "Calvinistic" etc. 4. Slowly introduce calvigod and his disinterest in most. 5. Weed out undesirables, excommunicating offender who ask troubling questions like, "Could you define sovereignty?". 6. Tout the value of the "great heroes of the faith". 7. When the coast is clear, admit what was denied in #1 above.
This is exactly what they do! I've experienced this first hand. The end result was a disaster 😢 If they were honest and loved truth, they would say who they are and their agenda from the beginning. Unfortunately, they don't and they need to get caught by those church members who are vigilant and rooted in the Word of God (not systematic theology).
🎯🎯🤦🏻♂🤦🏻♂YEP! THAT'S HOW THEY DO IT. It's not What Jesus Would Do. Ultimately, when followed to it's logical conclusion, Calvinism describes a God who cannot be trusted to love any one individual, personally. Especially the man in the mirror.
@william If you can look at your Bible and see the teaching of salvation by Grace alone through faith alone in Christ as stated in scripture alone for God’s glory alone and say it’s error or heresy then you are denying the clear teaching of scripture and it is you who must repent and believe God’s perfect word. Predestination, election, God being the author, creator, sustainer and sovereign of all that exists is in his word if you deny that you have the wrong god. 🙏✝️ Soli Deo Gloria
I think the issue of these songs is a far greater immediate need in our churches. It's incredible how many churches preach against the false doctrine that these churches teach, while singing their songs.😟
That one is a battle....besides prayer, going to scripture about God's Holiness, worship is to be God centered. Also those 2 "churches " have so much evidence on UA-cam to support one's claim of apostasy. God in His mercy removed wretched from our songs when it was pointed out as blasphemy. Wretched is used 1 time in the Bible and it is a sinful. So pray and fast, ask the Lord to help you prepare and examine your motives too. May our Lord give you His wisdom and direction.
If you want to reform your church then purge such music. If you want to grow a seeker sensitive church that tickles the ears and provides an entertainment gospel then keep such music.
Paper clip maximizer. This treats people categorically as if they are interchangeable parts for a car that will eventually be ideal. People who think and talk the way that is displayed in this video need to spend a few years meditating on 1 Cor. 13.
🎯🎯 I am encouraged by actually reading 1 Cor 13 using 'God' in place of "Love". Since our Heavenly Father is the very personification of Love, it's no stretch that Paul is describing the nature and character of God. As he knew him and as Jesus portrayed him while on earth. You cannot read it this way and arrive at the depiction of God which Calvin gives his followers.
I tired to push for reform at my previous church over several years(attended for 12 years and pushed for 4 years), but it wasnt well received, had 1 step forward 3 steps back, i was called names by elders and never discipled because of reformed beliefs (my discipleship was from Scripture and from ministries like Ligonier, G3, Voddie, MacArthur, Paul Washer, Todd Friel)
God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. He had to break me of years of trying to do the Holy Spirit's job and confess my pride. Then He began moving in hearts in our church in amazing ways. Jesus said He will build it. Pray, don't push, for reform.
@@realfetchboythank you for encouraging prayer, it is a battle. Also stay in the Word so our answers are biblical. Pray especially for women's ministries as many false teaching comes through them and for strong godly men to lead your church.
Agree. There's nothing wrong with having conversations, even w/o using the word "reform". Buzz words scare people off. But I always speak from scripture, rather than 'buzz words" and instead talk about helping people better grasp all that Christ has done in His salvation, discipleship, helping people learn how to walk with Lord, lifting up the name of Christ, etc. And try to write letters or speak in a way that suggests respect, genuine concern, and most of all LOVE. The Bible says "do all things in love". But ultimately, it's the work of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes, a person has to move on to a different church. That happens as we grow in Him. @@realfetchboy
Good for you for pursuing the Lord when 1 hour on Sunday wasn't enough. I, too have been greatly blessed by the ministries you listed. Men who know the Lord.
How the question is asked makes a great deal of difference. Part of proving healthy leadership is challenging them, but that does not mean seeking to tear them down.
Was having coffee with the pastor's wife (of a 'Christian Church') and I mentioned taking a high view of God. Her response "that sounds like Calvinism!" "high view" must be a code word. I mean, what's the alternative? A LOW view of God? I didn't realize at the time that 'Christian Church' was a denomination. I just thought it was an independent Bible church- type of group. So I had to do some research to find out what the beliefs were. Come to find out that its founders were ordained Presbyterian ministers who had issues with and ultimately rejected the Westminster Confession. One of the founders didn't believe in the Holy Spirit. Bottom line, it is a low view of God and a high view of self. In some ways, this little group I'd been a part of for several years is much like the Lutheran Church. A form of religion but denying the power. Although I know there are some true, sincere believers there. But when people have become indoctrinated a certain way, it's very hard to show them more accurately. Others simply grow accustomed to the way things are and change upsets them.
The question is also... Was Calvin right? I think he introduced the biggest unscriptual teachings.... In conflict with scripture and Father's character.
@@HearGodsWordThere is a convincing body of evidence that "Calvinism" was, by Calvin's own mouth, totally dependent on the teachings of Augustine. The early church, including the "church fathers", did not hold to Augustine's teaching. John Calvin wrote, "Augustine is so wholly within me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings." Let that sink in. Calvin said that his confession of faith could be totally explained and supported by the writings of Augustine. Not the Bible?
Guys, you are assuming that a church isn't Reformed because the preaching of the word has been neglected. This is an over-simplification and an inaccurate assessment. I know you believe that this is the case because that's the logical conclusion of your doctrines. However, it's not very difficult to prove your doctrines wrong on these matters. There are pastors who faithfully preach God's word, and they are not Reformed or Calvinist. And I know that the response will be that if they don't preach through a Calvinistic lense then they are misunderstanding the text, but that's question begging. That's exactly where the disagreements are. Saying someone is in error because your doctrines day so doesn't actually prove anything. You need to prove your doctrines are correct, and accept the fact that there are many who know the scriptures just as well as you do and love the Lord just as much as you do and desire to speak the truth just as much as you do, and yet they still disagree with you.
You have to really think about what your saying..its question begging to assume our doctrine is correct yet you can assume it isint correct and it’s not question begging? That’s like going to a community of people who all think eating meat is wrong and they are making a video about how to stop people from eating meat and then you tell them “eating meat is good,you can look for a different problem because that’s not it” but the whole video was about stopping people from eating meat that’s what they have all agreed on that’s the starting point..just like you have your presuppositions and beliefs …so your attacking a whole foundation..to be reformed is specifically equivocated by Calvinist to be the doctrines of grace that’s the foundation of our belief as Martin Luther said “the heart of the matter” so it’s completely pointless to say something like this to Calvinist..you might as well be speaking a foreign language we see the scriptures as black and white on these issues..we won’t agree that anyone not preaching the doctrines of grace is being faithful to the scriptures just like you couldn’t be consistent and think we we’re faithful to the scripture if you don’t agree with the doctrines of grace..like I said it’s two completely different foundations
Yep, if you disagree with their theology as they begin to 'reform' an unsuspecting congregation and members begin to leave.... they simply believe these are folk who are probably not 'elect' anyway and wont' be missed... here or in heaven. It's disgusting what the encourage young pastors to do.
These are divisive men with deceitful methods. 2 Cor 4:2 Paul refused to use cunning words to unbelievers, so why on earth would we do it to brothers and sisters in Christ?
I need this!!! We need a reformation that leads to Revival ❤️🔥
Thank you, appreciated, God bless you all 🙏🏾💜
Mark driscoll reformed😂wow
Here's a suggestion. If you're a "reformed" pastoral candidate, try being honest and transparent about what you believe right from your first conversation. If you believe God condemns someone to Hell before they are born, communicate that CLEARLY to the search committee. If you believe that the "doctrines of grace" means God is the active and specific cause of evil acts, HONESTLY communicate what you believe. If you believe that when you get to heaven you will be ecstatic that your mother, not one of the predetermined elect, is suffering in hell, then SAY SO. If reformed candidates would be honest, not smugly confident in their superior understanding of the Gospel, they would generally be shown the door. You would not even be given the opportunity to "reform" anything.
Josh told the church he believed in plurality of the elders. A weak attempt at transparency. But did he tell them his views of soteriology? No, he did not. He waited until he had been hired. He took a long view to change the church. Duplicitous. Deceitful.
Do you really think your goal of "reformation" is a good enough excuse for dishonesty? If so, change your vocation. You defame the name of Jesus.
"He who practices deceit shall not dwell within my house; He who speaks falsehood shall not maintain his position before me." Psalms 101:17
🎯🎯
@@nathanpetty560 I hope that you’ve read your Bible since posting this and now have a better understanding of the truth.
1. Lie to their faces about what you believe.
2. Be patient in building up your posse.
3. Avoid words like "Reformed" "Calvinistic" etc.
4. Slowly introduce calvigod and his disinterest in most.
5. Weed out undesirables, excommunicating offender who ask troubling questions like, "Could you define sovereignty?".
6. Tout the value of the "great heroes of the faith".
7. When the coast is clear, admit what was denied in #1 above.
Problem with your list is point 1, scripture says that we shouldn't lie.... and point 4
This is exactly what they do! I've experienced this first hand. The end result was a disaster 😢
If they were honest and loved truth, they would say who they are and their agenda from the beginning. Unfortunately, they don't and they need to get caught by those church members who are vigilant and rooted in the Word of God (not systematic theology).
Look up the definition of systematic theology cause being against it is foolishness and unbiblical.
🎯🎯🤦🏻♂🤦🏻♂YEP! THAT'S HOW THEY DO IT. It's not What Jesus Would Do. Ultimately, when followed to it's logical conclusion, Calvinism describes a God who cannot be trusted to love any one individual, personally. Especially the man in the mirror.
@william If you can look at your Bible and see the teaching of salvation by Grace alone through faith alone in Christ as stated in scripture alone for God’s glory alone and say it’s error or heresy then you are denying the clear teaching of scripture and it is you who must repent and believe God’s perfect word. Predestination, election, God being the author, creator, sustainer and sovereign of all that exists is in his word if you deny that you have the wrong god. 🙏✝️
Soli Deo Gloria
What about churches that sing songs from false churches such as Hillsong and Bethel? Should that be changed immediately?
I think the issue of these songs is a far greater immediate need in our churches. It's incredible how many churches preach against the false doctrine that these churches teach, while singing their songs.😟
That one is a battle....besides prayer, going to scripture about God's Holiness, worship is to be God centered. Also those 2 "churches " have so much evidence on UA-cam to support one's claim of apostasy. God in His mercy removed wretched from our songs when it was pointed out as blasphemy. Wretched is used 1 time in the Bible and it is a sinful. So pray and fast, ask the Lord to help you prepare and examine your motives too. May our Lord give you His wisdom and direction.
If you want to reform your church then purge such music. If you want to grow a seeker sensitive church that tickles the ears and provides an entertainment gospel then keep such music.
@@rinihogewoning6528 agree but unless you're the pastor, how would you do that?
Paper clip maximizer. This treats people categorically as if they are interchangeable parts for a car that will eventually be ideal.
People who think and talk the way that is displayed in this video need to spend a few years meditating on 1 Cor. 13.
🎯🎯 I am encouraged by actually reading 1 Cor 13 using 'God' in place of "Love". Since our Heavenly Father is the very personification of Love, it's no stretch that Paul is describing the nature and character of God. As he knew him and as Jesus portrayed him while on earth. You cannot read it this way and arrive at the depiction of God which Calvin gives his followers.
Will you give your thoughts on Alister Begg?
I tired to push for reform at my previous church over several years(attended for 12 years and pushed for 4 years), but it wasnt well received, had 1 step forward 3 steps back, i was called names by elders and never discipled because of reformed beliefs (my discipleship was from Scripture and from ministries like Ligonier, G3, Voddie, MacArthur, Paul Washer, Todd Friel)
God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. He had to break me of years of trying to do the Holy Spirit's job and confess my pride. Then He began moving in hearts in our church in amazing ways. Jesus said He will build it. Pray, don't push, for reform.
@@realfetchboythank you for encouraging prayer, it is a battle. Also stay in the Word so our answers are biblical. Pray especially for women's ministries as many false teaching comes through them and for strong godly men to lead your church.
Agree. There's nothing wrong with having conversations, even w/o using the word "reform". Buzz words scare people off. But I always speak from scripture, rather than 'buzz words" and instead talk about helping people better grasp all that Christ has done in His salvation, discipleship, helping people learn how to walk with Lord, lifting up the name of Christ, etc. And try to write letters or speak in a way that suggests respect, genuine concern, and most of all LOVE. The Bible says "do all things in love". But ultimately, it's the work of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes, a person has to move on to a different church. That happens as we grow in Him. @@realfetchboy
Good for you for pursuing the Lord when 1 hour on Sunday wasn't enough. I, too have been greatly blessed by the ministries you listed. Men who know the Lord.
Maybe because the church wasn’t agreeing with your doctrine of demons.
Good stuff…
You can pretty much guarantee that anytime you question a pastor or elder(s), you'll be shown the door!
Haha, okay, Buddy. 😂
I wonder how many times this has happened to you.
If not necessarily shown the door, but being ignored and shunned by the pastor.
@@MarkM-gt1vf Not all pastors and churches are like this.
How the question is asked makes a great deal of difference. Part of proving healthy leadership is challenging them, but that does not mean seeking to tear them down.
Was having coffee with the pastor's wife (of a 'Christian Church') and I mentioned taking a high view of God. Her response "that sounds like Calvinism!" "high view" must be a code word. I mean, what's the alternative? A LOW view of God? I didn't realize at the time that 'Christian Church' was a denomination. I just thought it was an independent Bible church- type of group. So I had to do some research to find out what the beliefs were. Come to find out that its founders were ordained Presbyterian ministers who had issues with and ultimately rejected the Westminster Confession. One of the founders didn't believe in the Holy Spirit. Bottom line, it is a low view of God and a high view of self. In some ways, this little group I'd been a part of for several years is much like the Lutheran Church. A form of religion but denying the power. Although I know there are some true, sincere believers there. But when people have become indoctrinated a certain way, it's very hard to show them more accurately. Others simply grow accustomed to the way things are and change upsets them.
The question is also... Was Calvin right? I think he introduced the biggest unscriptual teachings.... In conflict with scripture and Father's character.
I don't think he introduced anything new, just brought people back to teachings from church fathers
@@HearGodsWordThere is a convincing body of evidence that "Calvinism" was, by Calvin's own mouth, totally dependent on the teachings of Augustine. The early church, including the "church fathers", did not hold to Augustine's teaching.
John Calvin wrote, "Augustine is so wholly within me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings." Let that sink in. Calvin said that his confession of faith could be totally explained and supported by the writings of Augustine. Not the Bible?
@nathanpetty560 some did, and some didn't.
Why no comment 😂
Guys, you are assuming that a church isn't Reformed because the preaching of the word has been neglected. This is an over-simplification and an inaccurate assessment. I know you believe that this is the case because that's the logical conclusion of your doctrines. However, it's not very difficult to prove your doctrines wrong on these matters. There are pastors who faithfully preach God's word, and they are not Reformed or Calvinist. And I know that the response will be that if they don't preach through a Calvinistic lense then they are misunderstanding the text, but that's question begging. That's exactly where the disagreements are. Saying someone is in error because your doctrines day so doesn't actually prove anything. You need to prove your doctrines are correct, and accept the fact that there are many who know the scriptures just as well as you do and love the Lord just as much as you do and desire to speak the truth just as much as you do, and yet they still disagree with you.
You have to really think about what your saying..its question begging to assume our doctrine is correct yet you can assume it isint correct and it’s not question begging? That’s like going to a community of people who all think eating meat is wrong and they are making a video about how to stop people from eating meat and then you tell them “eating meat is good,you can look for a different problem because that’s not it” but the whole video was about stopping people from eating meat that’s what they have all agreed on that’s the starting point..just like you have your presuppositions and beliefs …so your attacking a whole foundation..to be reformed is specifically equivocated by Calvinist to be the doctrines of grace that’s the foundation of our belief as Martin Luther said “the heart of the matter” so it’s completely pointless to say something like this to Calvinist..you might as well be speaking a foreign language we see the scriptures as black and white on these issues..we won’t agree that anyone not preaching the doctrines of grace is being faithful to the scriptures just like you couldn’t be consistent and think we we’re faithful to the scripture if you don’t agree with the doctrines of grace..like I said it’s two completely different foundations
Sick disgusting in Jesus like doctrine and conclusions in calvinism reformed theology.
Yep, if you disagree with their theology as they begin to 'reform' an unsuspecting congregation and members begin to leave.... they simply believe these are folk who are probably not 'elect' anyway and wont' be missed... here or in heaven. It's disgusting what the encourage young pastors to do.
Yep! that's how it works. It's disgusting.
You still haven't found truth then
@@HearGodsWord Take off your cult lenses to see more clearly HGW. Your choice.
@truthseeker5698 do please prove what supposed lenses I have on. You've never commented any truth on here.
These are divisive men with deceitful methods. 2 Cor 4:2 Paul refused to use cunning words to unbelievers, so why on earth would we do it to brothers and sisters in Christ?