EVERYTHING You NEED To Know About Buying Speakers! (Working Audio Tools Podcast S7 E7)
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
- EVERYTHING You NEED To Know About Buying Speakers with Dale Chapman.
➡️ For Questions about Purchasing Speakers, contact Dale at SX Pro Audio:
sxpro.co.uk/
Follow us, Paul Third and Ed Thorne, on our journey to becoming full-time audio mix engineers. We regularly host guests from the audio community and compare and constructively critique mixes. Covering everything from analogue vs digital, hardware versus plugins, Atmos mixing, mix translation, mixing and mastering, mixing philosophy, and mixing psychology.
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Thanks for watching & listening.
CHAPTERS:
02:05 What are fundamental mistakes people make when purchasing a speaker?
05:35 Pros & Cons of a 3-way Vs a 2-way speaker?
10:04 Does a 3-Way deliver better mix translation?
19:16 Pros & Cons of different cabinet designs?
37:33 How do you find the best speaker for your room?
40:54 Sage Advice
42:33 Top Tip for desk reflections.
45:23 Avoid THIS!
46:53 DSP Vs Analogue Speakers
52:19 Pros & Cons of Coaxial Design
57:10 Lesser known speaker designs
1:00:30 Do speaker materials matter?
1:07:00 Final Words of Advice
Great podcast, Dale was a big help with helping me choose my PMC speakers.
Thanks, Paul. Same here. Can’t believe how much I’m enjoying working on my new Amphions!
How does one get Dale’s help in their studio? I’ve spend a fortune with Sx and never heard of him until this episode! Sounds like he’s the man to talk to!
@infojunkie4989 when you call up, just ask to speak to Dale. He is very knowledgeable about everything he sells. And will advise you on what is best for you, not what they want to sell. Which is often the case with other companies. One of the many reasons I like using SX Pro.
I really enjoyed the last two technical topics 😮
👍👍
Great podcast fella’s. Dale really knows his stuff! It’s been very interesting following Ed’s journey and where he’s ended up with the Amphion Two 18s. Funnily enough I’ll be auditioning a few pairs of monitors in my home studio next week, courtesy of SXPro, great service. Can’t wait!
Awesome. What are you trying?
What an interesting can of worms this is......thanks fellas!
Another fantastic episode chaps! Really interesting insights from Dale. Thanks all for putting this together. A great asset and contribution to the community. Much appreciated!
Btw - The Ones are amazing. The ‘upgrade’ from 8040s to the 8341 was night and day. The 8351 takes it up another notch. They benefit from a sub though.
Glad you enjoyed this, thank you for the kind words!
My Abacus Mirra 14 are sealed and they are lovely, the new Pivota 42 is also sealed and it’s huge. 🎉
Great video thank you!! I changed my monitor control to a D-BOX+ and I thought I got new speakers huge difference in the digital to analog conversion verse just using UAD Apollo X8
Interesting. I might look into one of those
Great comment!
Good conversion makes a MASSIVE difference to the performance of good speakers. Upgrading in the way you have, you’ll find you get way less apparent low-mid distortion and find it much easier to hear “into” the mix, which likely feels much more open and less congested than using your previous converter!
@@sxproaudio Absolutely true I really couldn't believe it at first. Every review of the Dangerous music converters is top notch. So much so I'm add the Dangerous convert AD+
@@chadfayrobinson7537 I’m really glad this worked out for you!
Bit late but looking forward to this :)
🤘
@@WorkingAudioTools Really dope episode 🔥
Interesting about the curved screen... I was considering one, although had though a high tilted 4K TV directly on the wall with acoustic treatment below it and a main editing screen to the side of the setup
Definitely avoid a curved screen. 👌
It’s all about compromise; you need to be able to see the project you’re working on so a screen is necessary, but curved screens are distinctly much worse than flat ones.
I’ve often thought losing the screen entirely and using Apple Vision Pro might be a smart move for someone who was wanting to lose the screen issue altogether, but I’m not sure wearing a VR headset every day for 8 hours is going to be totally comfortable 😂
I never even thought of that. That would definitely solve a lot of those reflective issues AND if you could get it to fully work with a daw.. You essentially have a slate raven but you can do a lot more.. BUT I can't see slowtools getting that to integrate with it for another 15 years 😂
@@WorkingAudioTools You could still use a mouse and keyboard with it just like now, using the Vision Pro purely as a screen solution.
@@sxproaudiodon’t you think having that apparatus on your head would affect the way sound reaches your ears?
Really enjoyed the episode, Ed and Paul! I made three comments on topics that came up in the discussion.
Why a 3 way speaker might translate better:
I have never heard anyone say this before, but maybe it's because a single driver reproduces a frequency range that's quite similar to what a mixcube would produce (400Hz - 4kHz), and so you have fantastic phase coherence across the most important part of a mix?
Large sealed speakers:
In the hi-fi sector, large sealed speakers are not uncommon, and some of these get used in top mastering studios. For example, Bob Ludwig used Egglestone Works Ivy Signatures (sealed 3 way with three 12in woofers) and Brian Lucey uses Evolution Acoustics MM3s (sealed 3 way with two 15in woofers).
Science regarding room acoustics:
Ed said @ around 1h07m42 "I think speaker design science goes along way further than room acoustics" - I really don't think this is true at all. In fact, I think it's more likely that the opposite is true.
I work at a university, and when I speak to my colleagues doing research in the fields like Built Environment, Material Sciences, Fluid Dynamics, etc they tell me that while we have a lot to learn about about hearing (a lot of research at my uni is done to make better hearing aids), and a lot to learn about transducers (like Jesco said last week @ 16m20s about his experience after talking to speaker designers), we actually have a very good understanding of how sound propagates in a space.
Ed has previously said that a subwoofer should never be placed in the center of a room according to "acoustic theory" (see his video Tweeters Inside or Outside... or Upside Down...?, @ 1m30s) but I don't think this is a fair assertion to make either, and I think it represents a misunderstanding of the theory behind acoustics. Theory regarding acoustics is typically rooted in a branch of physics called fluid dynamics. We can learn a lot from fluid dynamics about how sound behaves in different spaces, but we definitely don't get hard and fast rules regarding speaker or subwoofer placement from this theory. I'm sure this subwoofer placement heuristic represents a popular opinion, and maybe it's usually good advice, but it definitely does not follow from acoustic theory that subwoofers should never be placed in the center of any room.
You've misheard Ed. From my recollection last time he mentioned this he was talking about how people were telling HIM that he shouldn't place a sub in the center due to acoustic theory. His conclusion on this podcast has always been you place the sub where it works best for the room
Actually I went to the video in question and he actually says "contrary to popular opinion and acoustic theory" in regards to the optimal subwoofer placement in his room being in the middle
@@WorkingAudioTools Hi Paul (?).
Here's Ed's full quote:
"so the optimal location for my subwoofer, contrary to popular opinion - and acoustic theory - was in the middle of the room" - see Ed's video called Tweeters Inside or Outside... or Upside Down" at 1m30s - 1m39s.
I totally agree that you need to see for yourself where is best for your speakers and your subwoofer based on your room. I don't think this contradicts fluid dynamics theory, and by extension acoustic theory. Ed's quote above suggests to me that he believes acoustic theory predicts one ought not to put a subwoofer in the center of a room - and I think this is not an accurate understanding of fluid dynamics or acoustic theory.
I can't be bothered getting in the weeds here over this but people had told Ed over the years that this wasn't recommended due to x, y, z
Even just a quick chat gpt question will give you this:
"Placing a subwoofer in the middle of the room is generally not recommended because it can lead to poor bass response due to the way low-frequency sound waves interact with the room’s acoustics.
Here’s why:
1. Room Modes: Low-frequency waves tend to reflect off the walls and create standing waves, which lead to peaks (areas of too much bass) and nulls (areas of weak or no bass) at various points in the room. Placing a subwoofer in the center of the room can position it at a null point, where bass cancellation occurs, reducing its effectiveness.
2. Boundary Gain: Subwoofers often benefit from "boundary gain" when placed near walls or corners. The proximity to walls reinforces low frequencies, making the bass sound fuller. In the middle of the room, away from walls, this reinforcement is absent, leading to weaker bass output.
3. Phase Issues: The reflections from multiple surfaces (walls, ceiling, and floor) may cause the bass waves to interfere with each other. In the middle of the room, this interference can be more noticeable, potentially causing phase issues where the bass sounds less defined or inconsistent.
To optimize subwoofer performance, placing it near walls or in a corner usually allows for better bass distribution across the room. It's also common to experiment with different placements and use tools like room calibration software to adjust for optimal sound."
Many online and in certain circles tend to use learned knowledge like this and interpret it as a hard unbreakable rule.
Ed's saying NOT to take this fully on board as the optimal sub position in his room is in the center
So HE is contradicting what OTHERS are stating as a hard fact rule
There are certain acoustic factors behind this "rule" but Ed's not advising anybody to follow it. He's questioning it more than anything
Paul has spoken accurately on my behalf here. - Ed
@@WorkingAudioTools Thanks for the replies, Paul and Ed - I'm glad to see we agree!
Like I said, from having spoken to some colleagues and done some reading in the field, it seems to me that fluid dynamics (and from this, acoustic theory) is very well equipped to describe what happens with sound propagation in a room. So, I think that the science regarding acoustic theory and the science regarding speaker design are at least similarly developed, and maybe acoustic theory is an even better developed field of inquiry.
And, of course, I believe that considering heuristics like "never put a subwoofer in the center of a room" as hard and fast rules represents a misinterpretation of acoustic theory.
I'm just speculating here obviously as I don't know the full details, but it seems like it would be quicker and cheaper in the long run for Ed to get that desk out of there and add bass traps to the walls and ceiling that are at least 6" thick.
Watch my recent speaker series on my channel. Goes into all the detail. One more video to come but basically the Amohions solved most of my problems. Trinnov does the rest.
@@WorkingAudioTools I did but it seems your traps are too thin to do anything with the frequency you're having trouble with. Corner traps are not enough. In my room each pair of 6" trap that I put in a first reflection spot made a nice difference.
What you say definitely has strong merit but part of this situation is compromise, and finding the best one for Ed’s needs. He could get away with a smaller desk but there isn’t loads of space to start with. It’s a small room so no amount of bass trapping is going to rid the rooms of the issues it has; it was cheaper, more practical and met Ed’s needs in this case to change his monitors to a pair that work much, much better in this room, than to spend the kind of money it would take to treat it and even then it probably wouldn’t do enough.
Kali should bring out a "Pro" line speakers where they do fix the limitations but then they are of course at a more premium price.
Doing so will make manufacturing costs down over time and those fix of limitations could be brought to the lower line as a updated model
Watch this space.. 👀
You said it Paul... "It's what the clients want" and you started to do that but hate mixing L C R, you have to try to change that thought somewhat.
The most important things with mixing L C R is you leave space for anything you do want panning across and back and forth will translate... if you mess about with too much 20 40 30 60 % you do not leave room for those things live in the track on the majority of consumer speakers or even headphones.
You'd never want most things moving about so this has become the common basis for mixing L C R so the things that do move can be clear a defined on even cheaper speaker and headphone systems.
Plus... the placement kinda happens anyway with the way sound get reproduced so trying to force that causes issues, things place themselves where it acoustically fits.
For a below budget speaker setup, your hate love with the Focal Shapes has helped me lean towards them if that is the budget.
Still trying to figure out headphones... which I'm finding I'm just going to need a good collection, but then the collection being narrowed down is quite hard.
I want one with a really good sound stage but I also want one that is harder to make the sound stage translate and so forth.
Headphones are at least not dependant on a room so it is pretty much headphone to headphone where speakers in a room it just is not.
New set of speakers: New set of problems to over come.
Headphones are also cheaper for they do not include the cost of the room.
But, you need speakers to really get good translation so the search for speakers is the search for the Holy Grail and the search for headphones is your experimental days at college 😂... no need to put a ring on it here
No chance of me ever mixing LCR. Doesn't work for me. Especially as I am atmos only now. The decision is taken out of my hands but it's been a very easy transition as I'm not mixing LCR
@@WorkingAudioTools Atmos does fold down into most L C R, movement is achieved with micro timing trickery and I myself will be going mostly atmos, although there are lesson you'll find with placement and movement where it translates better in fold downs... the Atmos algorithm tends to do it's own form of mixing in the fold down and anything still get put into a L C R context leaving space for moving things to use panning and timing to sound more defined... Atmos kinda allows to you mix without being limited to that L C R technique that has made a lot of top songs jump out and sound so 3D... L C R has the effect of being more 3D which when I discovered this blew my mind.
Atmos does then allow you to forget it, but not really, it's just a new set of rules to discover.
The only thing that scares me about Atmos is the fact the Algorithm is going to keep changing and we are going to have to keep up with that.
What is good, if it becomes the main format even for stereo content, it'll be only one file we ever have to think about and it's limitations of headroom will only make it less of a loudness war and I'm very up for that.
That's why i just mix atmos and try and get the atmos and stereo fold down to work together and make sense. When you mix atmos you forget all about stereo approaches
Loving these speaker chats thanks for setting them up! IMO: There isn't one pair of perfect speakers for translation; translation is an art, skill and craft that ties into the science of your speakers and room. I definitely think I make better faster decisions on my ATCs + heavily treated room + Trinnov but it's still hard work, I still have to reference, I still check on some other sets and headphones etc. and I've been mixing for 20+ years.
Thanks for sharing
Check out Amphions when you can. Every mix is translating! - Ed
@@WorkingAudioTools I have had Amphions as well as many others, they are great speakers but weren't the end game for me. I can see why some people like working on 2-ways better for translation, they help you focus on the big picture in some ways, forest for the trees etc. For me personally I like doing the bulk of my work on 3-ways and the expansive depth and detail they provide. I do keep some 2-ways around for reference checking though.
My Kali IN 8s seem to highlight the midrange better than the LP6s I used to have. I thought that was a feature of a 3 way because you have that separation. Maybe that’s the reason people say 3 ways translate better?
I'm leaning towards the MUM speakers more than anything but something causing me to do that is also network reasons and future upgradability, not just in the modular factor but experiments when such a prospect would be possible.
I will not be doing this for quite a while so their show room of other manufactures that they spoke of coming will help actually figure out if this might be the case and at the moment I am thinking of converting a caravan so I could travel up there and try them all in the very room they will end up in with a lot more ease than if I had a unmovable room.
Due to this being in a caravan, more and more it's looking like my only option is the iLoud MTM immersive bundle, but have the Focal Shape in mind if the 4's might work for my ceilings, and 5's for the surrounds.
The problem with this is they all need different mounting brackets so it's not something you can just swap out without doubling up on the mounting costs... well, you could sell after but you couldn't return as they will be damaged right away once mounted, of course could then sell the ones I don't choose.
My concern is the size of the caravan, how well you can treat it, how much power you get into it, cabling, mounting, weight etc etc dolby atmos is extremely room based. Took me months and months to get it right and it's not like it's a super tiny room.
@@WorkingAudioTools Well, this is my issue.. head height is a issues of course but all the part that'll become a studio will be stripped down to it's shell and then will go mad with acoustics then in... because it'll be stripped to a shell then the wiring will easily doable, but, this will be a install and hope I never have to switch out any wires.
For behind me I was thinking I could have acoustically treated board on hinges that can be clipping up to the ceiling but that is a bit of a suck it and see idea so still working on idea for the rear reflections.
Stripped down I have 3 meters to work with height wise.. I'll need a form of heat insolation which I'll double whammy as the first part of acoustic treatment and then coat in in bass traps with other acoustic treatment on top of that... diffusers also.
Going back into the caravan I have the benefit of it not being flat walls and simple treatment and extra diffusion should do it and the ceiling fold down back wall should compete the rest needed... enough... hopefully.
The idea is to cut the cost of living down while also being able to travel as I intend to then migrate this setup to America.
Where I will then settle down with a massive space as I'm planning on buying property in America to be where my daughter is now and house are insanely cheap in America... big detached houses with land costing as much as a crappy flat here lol
Another thing I thought about was having a projector screen and projector, hoping the projector screen wouldn’t cause much reflections at all and work with the acoustic treatment behind it… could maybe even use a more suitable material for acoustics as the projector screen.
I purposely put a projector screen in my atmos room so I had no acoustical compromise. Can be a tad noisy though so I'd suggest buying a really good one with ultra low noise
@@WorkingAudioTools Ah good point...
You should point out those brands (about time-aligning drivers)... I understand the protection of reputation but c'mon every good manufacturer should want to make their products better and your viewers should get honest information about products. Great podcast as always!
🙏 Appreciate the comment! The point of this information isn’t to name drop any brands as bad or good but to help everyone be a little more informed. If you try any speakers it will hopefully be a little easier to tell which ones are more in phase at the source. It’s certainly easy to see when measured…!
Check out Erin’s audio corner. If a speaker manufacturer doesn’t do or have Klippel measurements than I would be cautious
FFS!!! Just taken delivery of not one but two curved screens for the studio! Never thought of that. 😂😂
😅😅
I think we all need to find the equivalent of Dale who lives in whatever regional area we live in on the planet. I tried listening to some Hedd's in the largest retailer in Perth, Western Australia, and basically sat in a besser brick, highly reflective non treated room. Needless to say, they sounded like shit to my ears in that environment. Asked them if I could test them at home before buying them, and they weren't remotely interested in lending out speakers. 😮💨
In this situation I would always suggest that you contact the manufacturer. HEDD in particular are extremely keen to ensure everyone gets a great listening experience and I know are more than happy to facilitate listening in your own studio - we have three sets of HEDD speakers on demo for this reason.
You may have to pay for the speakers up front for security, of course, but should be under no obligation and should be able to get your money back after a demo period. We usually allow 7-14 days to allow for some mixing time with them.
Any speaker manufacturer should be willing to help you experience their monitors in your room and i'm surprised to hear that there are dealers that are not interesting in doing this with you, shame on them!
About the 29:00 time mark, it is because people say that producers don't need a critical pair of speakers because they are not critically mixing that you have to fight during mixing in most songs. Dudes, sound design is key. Top producers use critical monitors and it vibes them without limiting their creativity, if it sounds bad it goes to the trash no matter how inspiring it was. Please stop spreading that kind of info to futur producers. Hits are hits because the sound design is top notch in first place and every step after that is pure enhancement, not strict fixing.
I love the smell of an overheated driver, as long as it's not mine
🤣
Ed…… come to the dark side of PMC…..
One day!