Alternator Kill Switch Proper Wiring: Tech Tip Tuesday
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- Опубліковано 3 сер 2024
- For the proper wiring with your system and a kill switch please reference the diagram at the link below.
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Who else needs a Tech Tip every other day? 😅
if you do that you run out of them to fast
its better ever week
@@UPsideDOWNworld321 True!
Yep!
Good video Doug. Glad to see I'm not the only one who gets people who paid zero attention to what was being said in the video making comments. I used to think my videos were just too long. But after seeing this 7 minute video and realizing that 75% of the questions and comments were already addressed in the video I’ve come to the conclusion that most people just have the attention span of 2 year olds now days. 🤣 I swear I think some people just click on a video to ask questions without even watching sometimes.
Have no fear, you reach a ton of people who don't comment but learn a shit ton. Like the knock off oil pan I'm running in my regal because of your content BLG! And your relay panel stuff. Yall quality content creators have pushed so much info out its unreal.
@@shocker998md3 Thanks brother. Not sure I would exactly call my videos quality content, but I’m happy to here they’re helping some people out, lol.
I'd like to see a part 2 of this honestly.
Absolutely, also some recommendations for kill switches, or even a motion manufactured kill switch. Wouldnt have to worry about cheap stuff from China.
I’m a picture person, but your verbal description worked for me!
So glad to have tech Tuesday back Doug. Always awesome content ☺️👏💯🤟👍
Great video Doug.👌
For those wondering why it's ok to run EFI (Electronic Fuel Injection) direct to the battery. With the fuel pump shut off the injectors have no fuel to function.
I'm not necessarily a person normally to correct someone, however I don't want misguided direction going out to uneducated people. Your answer isn't accurate. The main power coming from the efi to the battery is to ensure ecu maintains constant clean battery voltage uninterrupted from any other source. Holley's specifically are very susceptible to this. Also, thinking on your logic. What if someone is running a mechanical fuel pump?
@@HorsepowerChris Do you feel better?
The reply is exactly correct. I didn't explain the purpose, just why the direct connection is safe to bypass the Safety Switch.
Besides Doug specifically referenced the clean power comment.
@@HorsepowerChris If someones running a mechanical pump its going to stop along with the engine when the coils and injectors stop firing. Think about it.
@@BadLuckGarage I run my relays to power my coils off a 12v source which is cut when the power to the vehicle is cut so the engine would be killed no matter what
@@robholmes2129 Exactly. The EMS also requires an ignition signal to run (which would draw power from a fuse/relay panel fed through the shutoff switch if wired correctly) and would kill the coils and fuel injectors immediately of the kill switch is flipped. Either way, engine dies and mechanical fuel pump dies with it.
Great video, please do a follow-up video with the different styles of kill switches and how to mount them properly.
Thank you for this. Helped wrap my head around it.
God damn that Fox is clean. !!!!!!
Great explanation. Nice and simple.
For some one that was on the receiving end of a incorrectly wired kill switch, this is valuable. Short story, A car had an incident, I activated the kill switch and it kept running. The car was on methanol and I am a track safety worker. The car was recently rewired (incorrectly) and that's what made the difference. Changes were put in place so that kill switches do actually shut the car down. This is done during tech inspection.
Magneto? Mechanical fuel pump?
@@flipfloptanlines926 I don't care if it is mechanical, electric or bluetooth. If I hit that kill switch I want the car to shut off, both for my safety and that of the driver.
@@HiggyRSQ The question posed wasn’t if the cutoff switch was needed but rather how. That said it has been over two decades since I had a car with a mechanical fuel pump and a magneto but when I did the pump had a cable activated cutoff that bypassed the fuel to the carb/mechanical injection and was located in the driver’s compartment and the magneto had a switch that would ground it that was on the outside the car and a battery cutoff if the car had onboard batteries for lights, racepack, starter etc
@@gullreefclub Ya man i was just askin because those 2 items can "complicate" or "change" the way a shutdown sequence is effected, clearly described by you for the 3 way cable fuel cutoff valve/pump. Last year i tested a nostalgia methanol car with a magneto. Thru the traps at 202, chutes good, master cutoff good. Coastin down to about a 100 the car refires, i guess it wasnt done lol. Yanked the fuel cut and just barely dropped the front tires in the sand. Believe me sir i want a kill switch to work as much as you. Now i yank and press every lever the things got at the 1000 foot lol
Couple things to add to this:
1) TEST this system to make sure it works. Start your car, turn off the kill switch, make sure the car dies.
2) Usually the starter is direct wired to the battery since kill switches rarely support a 300-400 amp load that's sometimes required to turn the starter, especially on high compression engines.
Ive seen starter direct and through kill. You are correct in the continuous rating, but many manufacturers have a burst/momentary rating 4-5 times higher than continuous rating. At least with a mechanical switch.
I'm at this step in my regal. Thanks for the barney style explanation
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Thanks Doug, Happy New Year 🍺
Thank you. That is helpful.
I think the solid state switch in the video threw me off, use a good old mech switch in the next vid maybe. Put some red paint to identify which post you are referencing, im unable to tell. The chart/pic was a little misleading. Only fuel injector DRIVERS go directly to post which u said kinda, the fuel PUMP(s) are switched by the master/kill. Ive been seeing more and more cars adding a relay inches from the alternator, wired in conjunction with the battery kill switch. I believe the regulators are gonna change language from BATTERY isolation, to ALL POWER SOURCE isolation, and we'll complain, and eventually blame a politician lol. Love yoll keep up the good work.
Awesome thank you so much perfect just what i was wondering 🤔 bout
In heavy equipment the battery disconnect is on the negative battery cable and if the alternator is turned off, it's with a 2 pole master switch on the field circuit. Just so you don't wire your dozer like your race car.
Good video, don’t forget your fuses for the power wires!
How to setup coilovers would be awesome, ideally for both drag racing and circuit racing as the latter applies to me but I'd say most people here are drag racing fans
great 2022 to you and your team to
ua-cam.com/video/OZIeOO_CJwU/v-deo.html
When I used to race, the most common thing that I saw causing issues with kill switches, was the alternator excite wire, or charge wire circuit back feeding the ignition system, the charge light circuit will provide enough current to power an ignition coil no problems.
If anyone is having problems with this, then a diode in line with the charge light will work (but if the diode fails short circuit, then your kill switch wont work), or use an LED charge light (you may have problems with the alternator self exciting in this configuration though) but the best way is to use a relay in line with the charge circuit, that is triggered from the ignition switch, but then is powered from BEFORE the kill switch.
What if you use a incandescent lightbulb instead of an LED, somehow this keeps the charge light on, I remember reading this years ago,
Hey Doug. Totally off this topic, could you do a tech tip on turbo drainage. To be more specific, low mount turbos with the use of scavenge pumps... I'm in the progress stage of this, and have 2 ideas on how I'm going to plumb my twin turbo low mount set up but still unsure.
Thanks bud
Check out Daddy Daves S10 pickup. Thats where i would start cuz im not familiar either. He has the turbos rear mounted low under the bed with a crossover hose connecting the 2 drains with a manifold or T to an electric scavenge pump which pumps all the way back to the engine. Couple vids back he had it on the lift easily viewable
Good information! Idea for another TTT... motor mounts vs plates. Install of plates and what power level recommended. Style Trans mount? Mid plate optional? Just some ideas!
Two downsides to this way of using the killswitch:
1: your battery isnt disconnected from the alternator, so in a bad crash theres still powered wires going to the engine bay, which could be a fire hazard (this isnt legal in some motorsports..battery must be completely disconnected from the rest of the electric system)
Good example of this problem was ol Cleetus`s crash with Toast where the alternator got smashed by the framerail, that could have caused an electric fire even with the kill switch turned off.
2: (not as important as # 1 but nonetheless.. worth to mention at least) The battery still drains slowly over time when parked through the alternator and/or ecu, especially irritating on racecars that dont get out every week, getting to the track and finding out your battery is just about flat from sitting all night in a cold trailer isnt fun.
Putting the alternator wires on a big solid state relay switched by ignition power (which is powered by the KS, so KS off means everythings really off) solves a lot of those issues, and doesnt add too much to the cost of your build.
Both of those points come from my personal experience, i`ve had an electrical fire inside my car during an ovalrace (36 cars on track) after I lightly (.....) tapped a competitor pushing some sheetmetal onto my alternator connections, safety officials were not too happy about that incident to say the least.
Or, wire the killswitch into the ground, including the EFI controller. Hit that, kills everything. Safer too.
I agree. I think the problem is in the wording. Kill switch vs battery isolator. For the schematic at the end I think it would be important to add appropriately sized fuses to all loads connected to the battery at the very least.
As far as the isolation on the ground side unfortunately it is not an accepted way per the NHRA rule book.
@@Reagent92 You have some valid points, including the lack of a label for the 'switch' shown in the diagram, meant as a 'kill switch' and from the views, concepts and principles of electrical, electricity, wiring, wiring diagrams, design and implementation, the label and naming 'kill switch' is actually false, incorrect and misleading.
There are some other basic issues with the diagram along with proposal, description and implemented system wiring regarding electrical, function(s)m functionality, dependability, reliability, and safety within electrical and over all vehicle with the desire, idea, concepts, issues, importance, necessity, requirements of the 'kill switch' concept as Doug described and @Bob Higgison mentions in his comments.
It is very obvious to me that most people involved in the various engine, motor, racing, modifications, performance, upgrades, etc., including this channel an nearly all that i watch, follow and have interest in them, lack basics of electricity, electrical, wiring, etc.
Within all and each of the comments here, there are good points and clear, obvious, certain false information combined within them, thus clear each lack the basics.
The NHRA Rules are based upon proper information, knowledge including electrical, fuel and mechanical issues which affect safety for the drivers, crew, emergency attendants, people along the track,at the event and in the stands. during the every use of these vehicles from the pits to the track, down the track, etc., and during any emergency, accident, crash, etc.
Such NHRA has rules for automated shut off/down, driver and crew chief by remote as least for Top Fuel dragsters and Funny cars, probably all vehicles which use methanol and the various automated and manually triggered fire system requirements too among many other safety requirements.
🤓
@Robert Shepherd , Your comment about a 'ground' based switch clearly indicates Your lacking of basics with and in electricity. Electricity is NOT similar to plumbing, tubing, liquid or air flow. A complete electrical path is required for any electrical potential [voltage] to exist at any point which allow energy flow [current]. The voltage does not exist up to the switch as with liquid or air pressure up to a valve or similar. Adding any break, switch in the 'ground' side of a circuit does not accomplish anything and is certainly not 'safer'.
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@Mark S; Your ideas, concepts about a 'bad crash' and Your examples with the "Toast' drift car crash of Garret Mitchel [Cleetus McFarland] and Your personal do NOT correlate and the two examples are certainly NOT similar. It seems to me Your personal situation was NOT an actual electrical fire, rather a fire of some combustible materials due to a possible short across from the alternator output to chassis ground due to a piece of sheet metal which was damaged and perhaps pushed to make the contact thus competed circuit - short possible and thus some 'sparks' which ignited some other material(s), including flammable fluids. [without knowing more of the precise, exact detail of what actually was burning, inflamed, it is impossible for me to determine. However, there are not any possible High Voltage, High Current or High Power electricity which can actually be an electrical fire within the vehicle.
My knowledge, expertise along with experience as both mechanic, mechanical, electrical, electrician, electronics, chemistry, materials, physics, engineering allow me to say with confidence the description is lacking proper information, details, accuracy and precision.
The safety officials were not pleased for many possible reasons, which may include some improper wiring, lack of proper safety switches, fuses, also regarding the whichever flammable materials became inflamed, lack of proper electrical isolation, insulation covering over the electrical connections [so to prevent the short] proper fusing, if a short occurs, and lack of other proper safety such the 'electrical short' and 'sparks' would not have ignited or initiated burning and flames inside Your vehicle, Also they may have been upset about some lack of automated or manual fires systems too.
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A. These and nearly all types of internal combustion engine vehicles use DC power < 20 V DC. The highest current exists with the starter motors and high voltage DC exists as output from a coil/coil(s) or magneto, to the spark plugs ~ 40kVDC.
B. Alternator - generates/produces AC voltage, converted to DC within the device and in combination with a regulator - 14.5. VDC for 12 VDC systems, 19.2 + VDC for 16 VDC.
C. Electricity is an energy, never a flame or fire itself.
D. Some fires can be initiated by flow of energy or spark of electricity igniting a material especially flammable materials.
[similarly the spark of electricity passing-jumping across the electrodes of the spark plug, ignited the flammable fuel-air mixture inside the cylinder.]
A sudden short can result in a spark which can ignite flammable materials.
Such, sometimes a fire which was initiated by a spark may be referred as or called an "electrical fire" though the fire is not actually electrical, but initiated and ignited by an electrical spark.
🤓
Hope this information is clear, useful, helpful, beneficial and make sense too. 😏
All The Best and Much Success in Your Quest, Health and Well Being. 😊
Sincerely ☺
@@newtonfirefly3584 Me next! Me next! @FlipFlopTanLines, PLC automation and Electric lift tech. My comments are all over here lol.
@@flipfloptanlines926 Have read Your comments, since.
You express some important points, aspects, concerns and good general view within the entire system, especially of the electrical, power aspects, affects, etc. overall.
Your example that Your father led You to experience with the coil output voltage is 'very powerful', but dangerous since it is 20kV-40kV depending upon the age-time period version of ignition system [electronic, coil packs, etc.].
It appears that perhaps, You may benefit more from some actual basic information of electricity, electrical circuits as hopefully You have with mechanics, mechanical, machines beyond these seemingly 'practical' type lessons.
Does a person need to experience 'high voltage' shock to comprehend the power, danger and necessary safety ?
Perhaps observing and noticing a spark emanate, from a spark plug between the electrodes or across from the high voltage coil output side wire to bare metal, arc through the air, 'jump' is sufficient ?
Does a person need to experience harm, damage, breakage, destruction to comprehend the power of mechanical, machines, forces ?
Does a person need to experience the power of lightening to comprehend it ? Perhaps, small static electricity shocks are sufficient or also not necessary and positive uses like rubbing a balloon on Your clothing then placing it upon the wall, observing and noticing that it holds, stays, adheres?
My father led me with basics in mechanical, carpentry, some minimal electrical, developed more in public school 'shop', including electricity, electrical, beginning electronics, then further in physics and engineering in University, as Co-op Engineer in the testing, assembly laboratory and afterwards in design, development, etc.
Also learned and am certified within ESD, which most are completely unaware of and the affects, effects which exist with most all electronics, especially of the last years plus [which include whichever computer electronics device You connect to this platform and others].
All The Best and Much Success in Your Quest, Health and Well Being.
Sincerely
Can we please get an update video on Doug's Nova? #BESTCHADEVER!
I take issue with your wiring schematic Doug. Dont let people think its okay to just have a chassis ground in an EFI system. Also, so it doesnt seem like im a hater, it was a good informative video.
Y’all should do one one the monocots that you guys offer.
Gday Doug. Great episode. What type of switch is that you have there? Is that what you run on your car? I’m very interested in using a quality unit as a kill switch.
Thanks mate. Support from Victor Harbor South Australia 🇦🇺
ditto mate
Great videos. I was wondering is there a standard fix for over charging your system? If your alternator gets to many rpms from high horsepower engines they will fail or over charge. is there a fix?
Yes, a larger alternator pulley.
Larger alt pulley #1. Some vehicles have adjustable external regulators that could be creeping out of adjustment contributing to overcharging. Generally the brushes, bearings or spinning mechanical parts fail at high rpm, not its voltage or current output electronics.
If you think your alternator is getting too much rpm than there is a possibility that your water pump or power steering might be receiving excessive rpm also. In which case a smaller CRANK pulley would resolve the issue as a whole. Just a thot before you replace the alternator pulley with a larger one, which is the correct fix for your question.
Oooohhhh look at that 4 eye Fox 🙂
What kill switch do you recommed? Does it go on the + or - side?
You don’t run the battery ground directly to your engine block then to the chassis?
What if you have everything ran off relays and want to put a kill switch on the switch side so when you kill power it turns off all relays? With power sitting at the relays but unable to flow?
This is good, but what about NHRA rulebook saying killswitch must kill power to entire car? the stud at the alternator will be hot at all times wired like this. Rulebook aside, I like having all the power off when I'm under the hood
My father taught me the same thing to isolate the COIL when i was 7. He said cover the coil post with my hand to "isolate" the spark from any metal. IT HURT BAD when he bumped the starter. Later i realized his class wasnt on safety, but on electricity and its force. With 1 rotation of the motor i instantly turned into Tesla lol
Your exactly right - his method described here is not NHRA legal.
you would run 2 disconnects, one for the whole car and one just for the alternator wire going back to the battery, gets pricey but guarantees no power anywhere in the car except between the batter and disconnect switches which normally tend to get wired pretty close together, just my humble 2 cents, you can wire both together so your remote e-stop button at the back or buttons if you have one inside the car as well can shut off both disconnect switches at the same time
@@CarlosDiaz-xf8pk Yes, I have 2 contactors, the ones I use are $25 ea. and yes either the switch on the back of the car or the one in the interior cut both contactors. They also sell 4 pole kill switches.
maybe this is a dumb question but what if you taged the excite wire to the starter solinoid? your KS still on positive side as before killing starter and fuse block for ignition and would it still do the same job with less positive wiring running the length of the car? would that be a wrong assessment?
Could this be used with a car that still uses a factory ignition switch, just using the cars key to turn the kill switch on and off?
Yes and no.
:D
1. You can (and must) use the kill switch according to most sanctioning body rules, regardless of how you start your car.
2. The factory key switch doesn't meet the requirements of a kill switch..it needs to cut all power to the vehicle, and it needs to be externally located at the rear of the car so track safety crew can safely shut you down if need be.
Will the nova be ready for sick week?
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Support 🇺🇲
what is this kill switch i searched for it the whole internet and still didnt find it i want that kinda switch that kill the system with and internal and external button other then cartek
Data Panel DP-22068 Solid State Battery Disconnect Switch, 200A, Includes Pigtail
😎
What gauge can be used for alternator to battery?
Depends on Amperage, Voltage and Distance of wire. Calculations/charts easily found with search. I hesitate to give you a standard answer that would work with 98% of applications...
@@flipfloptanlines926 is right. Many alternators will charge at 100A+ and if you go by NEC standards that requires something like 2GA which is ridiculous of course. Generally speaking you can wire to an underhood battery with 10GA and to a rear battery with 8 and it should be sufficient. But as an EE I tend to overkill everything so i would probably wire to the trunk with either 6GA or 4GA for the alternator just in case the battery is completely dead and you need it to recharge quickly.
@@Fast351 Agreed sir. It wood be a good idea to follow a car amplifier wire sizing chart, and just use your alternator amperage in the amperage column. Car audio power wiring is very large compared to a stock alternator wiring. Generally i use 1/0 true awg for every 300 amps of 12v current. My daily came with a 145 amp alternator with a stock 6 awg wire. My new 300 amp alternator has a 1/0 charge wire. Just an example of the 2 extremes.
Whose kill switch do you put on your own cars?
Pollak
@@jerrygaber6150 I'm certain that is not what they're using. Did you watch any of this video?
@@bordelons1 That's the brand I used. I recommend something from a large Cat if that fails. The tow rig will discharge in a month without it. YOU may want something lighter from Summit or Jegs, for example.
No battery could cause high voltage spikes and burn up alternator. Turing alternator off is hard on battery to charge once back on. Tip use ultra light small lithium battery or lawn mower battery. To small battery may have to jump start. Cut off alternator switch while engine is stopped. More volts more ignition, fuel pump and fan power. I'd have to see dyno and 1/4 results of cutting alternator off if much gain at all. Another way less alternator amps and bigger alternator pulley = less power - drag. For me it's maximum 15 volts for max cooling 178 degrees in hottest of summer, more ignition and fuel pump power. I have the adjustable power master alternator with the extra or minus 1.25 volts at the flip of a switch. Warning going over 15.25 volts running can burn up some electronics.
Can you guys add kill switches to your inventory!
My brother Doug. How about from the alternator to starter solenoid then back to the battery….
You will have your main power coming from the kill switch to the starter solenoid, so running your alternator to that same lug is looping power back into the system after the kill switch and doing exactly what he was saying NOT to do.
@@BadLuckGarage This does work if you have your starter power lead coming straight from the battery before the kill switch. There is no reason to kill the power lead to the starter with the kill switch assuming the solenoid wire is on the other side of the switch.
@@Fast351that wont pass nhra requirements since they want no power anywhere in the car
Sorry Doug, but I'm only watching for the foxbody.
Haha we will take what we can get brother 😂
Moroso #74108 can also be used. It's a 4 terminal kill switch and allows isolation of the alternator from the rest of the car when shut off.
Yes, thats the type of switch he referred to in the video as having a breakout for the alternator.
CAN YOU GUYS MAKE SOME GO FAST SHIT FOR A 76 MONZA DAMN no one makes stuff for this car
4 post vs 2 post kill switch , internet hot with misinformation on that topic
The components of a Killswitch aren't Drums, Guitar and Vocals?
Not confuscating at all.
First
Good information. But add to it that alternators are the instrument of the devil. All the current draw even for a 'simple' carb engine with ignition boxes and fans etc make them sort of nesecary. But you have to slow them down. Pullys are 'geared' for the average road car that seldom sees more than 3000 rpm. So lets try turning 7000 consistently and guess what, alternators short out, they viabrate and crack brackets and fall off.And they spray belts everywhere as well. Been there on all of this. Hate them!!
Always use a seperate belt for the alternator, when it fails you still have a water pump. And so kill switches are so important. But do some simple math, generally halve the alternator speed. Ditto with water pumps as well. SBC owners take note!
They never need to be run more than crank speed. Mechanical pump is far more reliable that those bloody stupid current drawing electric ones.
In the past I ran a Chev powered road race car with a HEI, Carter pump and very occasional use of an electric fan. I could do a 3 day meeting doing at least 50k of racing every day on one normal full size car battery. No alternator,, the events I do now with a Crane ignition box [excellent] and far more use of fans has required the dreaded alternator.
And always carry spare alt belts as well as a spare alternator. I see them fail so often at club level as well as big time motorsport
Hey the video picked up the dude holding the camera as he moves and rubs it. Put on some headphones and listen, the mic picks up everything. Get a stand or tell the dude filming to chill.
Coming from a guy that doesn’t even wire his own car
Very very confusing you were talking a lot of gibberish jumping back and forth blah blah blah get you some wiring diagrams quit jumping around with your comments people are understand you a lot easier if I was a first-timer trying to do what you're saying I think you were crazy
Wow Joe, have a rough day? Hope it gets better.
@@MotionRaceworksOfficial my days are fantastic man I don't have any issues
Maybe next time, throw up a diagram of what your talking about?
There’s a diagram in the video and a link in the comments
Next time maybe watch the whole video and you'll see the diagram,lol