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so during that turn, rage gain cap is 220. so we can reduce up until 220? or it just reduces from the total pool of rage?

@BilegtROK it's reduced after the rage gained calculation. So let's say march #1 will gain X amount of rage accumulation on that turn. That amount of rage gain (max 220) will then get the accumulated rage reduction subtracted from that number.

@@triax7218 ahh i see. so you will still have the rage previously generated from previous turns but you can just go 0 rage generation on that turn. Gotchya man! thanks for this info!

Thanks man! I already made a video on the topic.

For Scipio LC march, you can use Ring+Horn. If you have a march that has rage engine (including William cav comm support march), you can use those 2.

I meant WW

Rally & Garrison situation where you are expected to get swarmed.

Actually it’s not a damage bonus, nor a skill/smite damage bonus either. I think that’s what he meant by 10% « dps » in the sheet. But I get it’s then confusing as this 10% is also in the comparison with other accessories. You can’t compare Ring and GG with a horn, because they simply not the same. Horn is not a bonus (so an additive effect) to damage. Its effectiveness is depending of the base damage from active skills and the current bonuses applying. Even if it’s still not exactly that, you could more see it working as an equivalent to a boost, but certainly not a bonus. But, tbf, hard to find the perfect way to compare those

I was able convert the Horn into DPS increase by: LC+WW case, WITHOUT HORN, you do 2200 dmg factor as AA (9 turns, including expertise proc) and 7460 dmg factor as skill damage (5 target) in 9 seconds. Total 9660 dmg factor in 9 sec = 1073 dmg factor per second. WITH HORN, you do 2000 dmg factor as AA (8 turns, including expertise proc) and 7460 dmg factor as skill damage in 8 seconds. Total 9460 dmg factor in 8 sec = 1183 dmg factor per second. If you compare, this was 10.17% dmg factor per second increase. on Single target it was 9.22% increase. This AVG DPS increase can be even higher if the WW did AOE damage. I needed to do this rough DPS conversion in order to compare it with GG and Ring, to have same metrics.

​ @BilegtROK where is the 7460 damage factor number from? that meant to be liu + wallace skill? Liu skill does 5625 if it hits 5 targets, 2250x5/2 (reduction maxes out at 50% or you'd do more damage to 4 targets than 5). You're also not counting counterattack here right? since that would double the 200/turn damage factor? In which case the wallace damage is 2400, and happens 2 turns after liu, so you need to go through to turn 11 without horn, 10 with. Looking at the maths myself, you end up with a 6.75% increase if there IS counterattack (Wallace damage goes to 2700), and 5% inrease without counterattack involved (Wallace damage at 2400). No Horn: 200x11+200x2 (normal+2x expertise proc) = 2600 + 200x11+200x2 (counter+2x expertise proc) = 2600 + 5625+2700 (primary skills) = 13525/11 = 1230 DPS Horn: 200x10+200x2 (normal+2x expertise proc) = 2400 + 200x10+200x2 (counter+2x expertise proc) = 2400 + 5625+2700 (primary skills) = 13125/10 = 1313 DPS Difference = 1313/1230x100-100 = 6.7468% This 6.75% damage increase is in line with maths I have seen in the past for Horn vs Ring maths, mind you it does depend on which commander you're looking at, so it seems correct to me. Ring giving around 7-8% is also in line with numbers I have previously seen, the conclusions were always that ring was a bit better than horn on average in the long run, however given the importance of that 1st skill cycle in the field, Horn is generally a better field accessory.

@@BilegtROKNot exactly. As I told you, horn won’t work exactly the same as a damage bonus. So yea, doing dps comparison is good, but once you compare with Ring or Horn, you won’t be able to accurately compare them. Because horn is not increasing directly the dmg, not adding another additive (or multiplier) like the two others. Horn efficiency in terms of dmg per second increase relies on current dmg bonuses. For example : I take only single target dmg. LC/Wallace and we push the calculation to WW casting his active skill, on up to turn 11 with no horn, and turn 10 with horn. No horn, not taking any dmg bonus into account : for 11 turns, your total dmg base is 7250 for 11 turns With horn, not taking any dmg bonuses : for 10 turns’ your total dmg base is 7050 for 10 turns Which means : 6,9% increase of dps Now, we have the current NA and smite dmg bonuses these two commanders have (I don’t take even Arch or attack or anything out of the skills in consideration for sake of simplicity) No horn : for 11 turns, dmg is 10653 With horn : for 10 turns, dmg is 10413 Which means : 7,5% increase of dps Do you get what I mean now, by it is actually more working as a boost rather than just as bonus? It’s difficult to compare these accessories. Horn benefits of you having already dmg bonuses increasing dmg from your active skills, and so benefits of having already a ring or a GG. GG don’t benefit much of having a horn, it just remove one turn of NA, but Ring benefits of horn by having more chances to land on an active skill. As I already told, Horn and Ring have a great synergy

I havent done the math on Dagger, but here is a quick calculation. Dagger will proc once every 3.5 seconds, same as Horn. Thanks to expertise proc, this might go down to 3 sec. The idea is that on average, it will constantly have only 1 stack. Will not go up to 2 stacks that often and certainly not 3 stacks. In my previous Awaken vs Special video, I concluded that 10HP = 6% dmg reduction roughly. So with 1 stacks, 5% HP reduced, you are doing 3% more bonus damage to that target. If we see this as 1 march stand point, of course this is nowhere near good compared to the other accessories, BUT, if multiple march is attacking that target, all other marches will benefit from the Dagger. So its not as bad as you think. Dagger can be great accessory when you swarm Objectives. But at the same time, because of the open field meta, you might lose half of the value, just like ring. Need much more testing and simulations.

Same here, would be great if you could make a video for the drums

Silent trial is ass in open field. You are going back and forth engage and disengage. That does way more than silent trial can ever have a chance to have a meaningful effect.

Agree + i think you count GG wrong. GG contributes 5% to active skill, white hits and counterattack damage

@@Arji141 GG contributes +5% normal damage. It scales additively with other normal damage bonuses, and your total normal damage scales multiplicatively with smite damage, white hits, and counter attacks. So GG has a maximum damage increase of 5%, but the more normal damage your march has the worse it starts to scale. For example, LC/William gets +7.5% normal damage from talents, 10% from LC's 4th skill, 10% from WW's 4th skill, and 5% from arch formation. That's 32.5% total normal damage without GG or 37.5% normal damage with GG. White hits and counter attacks each do 200 damage factor. Without GG, they would scale up to: 200 * 1.325 = 265 damage factor. With GG, they would scale up to: 200 * 1.375 = 275 damage factor -- which is about a 3.6% increase over the no GG build.

Rok changed the naming... now: Normal damage is (smith damage,) basic damage and counter-damage. Smith damage is similar to skill damage except of the damage calculation. Basic damage (previously named normal damage) is the damage you deal every turn to the selected target (deals the equivalent of 200 damage factor per second) Counter damage is damage you deal back to every enemies that attacked you with a basic damage (deals the equivalent of 200 damage factor per second) Counter + basic damage = white numbers you see on your screen

Thanks for point this out man! I quickly redid the simulation, and thankfully the overall result was still the same. Thanks again!

Yes, actually this goes in favor of horn in addition!

yes with all these RNG. nah im just kidding 😂 its a failed bleach attempt.

@BilegtROK LMAO! I thought to myself no way his hair turned Grey that much in that short of time 😅

Ugh... Thanks for the video. Looks like I need to swap the ring for a horn. Thx!

Not a big deal you can just switch it to another commander. Ring works on every other commander

horn

Overraging is a common misconception. And the word « wasted » not really the good one in most of the case scenarios. For extra rage of horn to be wasted, you should have reach the cap already on that turn without it. It’s not because you go over the cap after it’s diminished with the addition of the horn that you have no benefits. First, it’s not in every turn that expertise and horn will proc together. The turns they proc one or the other are a huge benefit of having a horn. Then, if you have already the expertise, and you are not targeted, on this turn your raw rage will be 187. Which means that the horn will just advance you to the cap, and even if some of this rage could be not beneficial, the gap it filled (202 to 220 capped in this explanation) might be enough to make you end your skill cycle one turn faster and make you cast your active skills faster. Which is very crucial in openfield nowadays. Horn have still the potential to be a great help. Then’ it’s just a player’s preference to ever use it or to prefer Ring + GG.

@davorkapetanovic4257 then the horn in liuchen is wasted y es mejor gg +ring

I m using it for now for that march as well as gorgo hera garrison. Especially i m using GG + ring. It stomps

@@michamaciejewski2091 Smite is definitely very dangerous, especially in commanders with a lot of counterattack

Talented Horn usage was depending on the Commander Talent. For example Attack talent did not benefit from crit horn, on the other hand other talent trees had potential to benefit. I will note this down and make vid in future.

Very rough estimation is like 2.5 times. So if we round up, that would be 3 tries on average. But the number of tries is going to depend on what you score in your first try. As I mentioned in the video, if you get +25, you most likely refine total 4. +50 is 3 total and +75 is 2 total. And these 3 have similar chance of 30%. (kind of like rolling a dice that has similar probability of each side) And getting +100 in the first try is only 11%.

I think you did the precise math and came up with 2.3. Didnt you?

@@BilegtROK no i didnt it was just a random number

@@BilegtROKmy english isnt so good. i said that number so you can fully understand what i asked

@@BilegtROK but i have calculated and i found this rn 1st try=11% 2nd try=36.49% 3rd try=37.2821% 4th try=15.2279%

Horn is still good for Huo. He doesnt generate more rage than other commanders, he just has less rage requirement to cast his skill.

I actually think horn+drums is best for open field. Personally I decided to build drums instead of rings. They will overrage sometimes, but if it means I can cast my skill 1 second earlier, I will take that. For 5 march it would be minimum 4 drums, assuming that they will proc once during skill cycle, to save 1 second. I havent done exact math yet, too complicated atm, but this is my initial opinion.

​@BilegtROK I have just done some math with a few friends looking at multiple scenarios. In a perfect world 5 Drums would outperform 5 (uncrit) Horns by a slight edge. You have an average Skill cycle of around 6.8 with 5 Drums and around 6.98 with 5 Horn. (Tested on 20000 cycles) A problem comes around when you have a buffing commander like William or Trajan. (It doesn't matter much whether having one or both) The internal cooldown of Drum really nerfes it hard, making it overlap with other buffs and as a results in more than 3/4 the time resulted in a useless overrage. This problem you won't have with a Horn as its lack of cd and higher proc chance makes it way often to have it triggered on a different turn. We have an 5.78 avg Skill Cycle here with Horn only being 5.82. Having a Horn crit 5.75 (excluding the 3/4 times having buff commanders and Drum proc on the same turn) Crit on Horn makes it even greater. Problems come once one of your marches dies in combat as your skill cycles instantly are getting slowed down immensely as well as the actives being messed up. Conclusion: Ignoring all sorts of realism 5v5 Drums have a heads up. As soon as it hits less and one Drum is missing out the disturbance is incredible messing you up. In addition You need 4+ Drums to make the rage gain for your marches even the same as the Horn. Having Traja or William on the field makes the Drum lose significance even faster.

Said that, realisticly investing in Horn is smarter than running Drums as you cannot ignore every disturbance which happens just to make something work. Coming to Horn+Drum vs Horn+Ring now, that's an upgrade which is almost irrelevant. 😊 For getting a 0.15 reduction (which requires having both Trajan AND William) you will lose on all the damage you could have gotten from you Ring of Doom. (Exact difference was +1440 5 turn cycles and one less 7 turn cycles in 20000) All of that is getting lost when nit having those 2 buffers. Back to 6.38 we are again and just as a reminder. It would be 6.13 for Ring/Horn + William (excluding Trajan) (6.59 without both) So before running both Horn/Drum it would be wise to just optimise your Commander setup as William has basically 80% of the impact you would get swapping 5 rings to 5 drums. All stuff above I neee to give credit to sheepx2

​@@MathewBates2639 wait a second I made a Typo error there (corrected my initial reply). I meant Drums instead of Rings lol so I am going for Horns+Drums. (for maximum rage generation) Good thing is that I dont have much Ring, I only have 1. So I can afford to just try the Horn+Drums. Honestly, I also agree that there is no reason to replace your already crafted 5 Rings for Drums. But the reason I decided to go for Horn+Drums combo instead of Horn+Ring is that Ring loses half its value on open field fighting. Since we constantly engage and disengage, sometimes we waste the trigger chance during disengage you know. (because you get the bonus for 2 seconds, not for the next 2 turns.)

@@BilegtROK That is exactly what I proved with mathematics to be the most efficient way to waste your materials and stuff if you read the comment 😆🤔

Also skills that cast twice like Joan Prime really makes a ring good, but you explained very well how they benefit from each other and also how the probability works. Thanks for clearing it up, people who aren't into mathematics won't think about it