After paying close attention to this video, to sum it up for the people who didn’t understand, there’s only a 7.5% chance that the the horn over rages when you use it because the horn’s rage has to line up with the rage from the combo attack. Therefore the over rage theory is not a big deal because the other 92.5% of the time, the horn will still get the most of the rage. This guy did a very good job explaining it, the only thing didn’t understand was what basic attacks were but then I assumed it was the white attacks that weren’t from skills and I’m 99% sure I’m right. Thanks for the informative video, you earned yourself a sub
Rok changed the naming... now: Normal damage is (smith damage,) basic damage and counter-damage. Smith damage is similar to skill damage except of the damage calculation. Basic damage (previously named normal damage) is the damage you deal every turn to the selected target (deals the equivalent of 200 damage factor per second) Counter damage is damage you deal back to every enemies that attacked you with a basic damage (deals the equivalent of 200 damage factor per second) Counter + basic damage = white numbers you see on your screen
I wanted to share my personal experience in KVK. I'm running three marches: Liu Che + Alex, Ragnar + Scipio, and Zhuge + Herman. For gear, both my Ragnar + Scipio and Zhuge + Herman are equipped with Horn and Ring, while my Liu Che only has a Ring. Despite this, I’ve noticed something interesting. In my battles, my Liu Che + Alex consistently outperforms the other two marches and gives better trades. On top of that, Liu Che almost always activates his skill first, even compared to my other marches that have Horns. From my experience, I don’t think the Horn is necessary for Liu Che. I recommend pairing a Ring + GG for Liu Che. That’s just my personal take after running Liu Che without a Horn alongside my other marches.
Yep, that is very correct. Do not worry about overraging. If you only get 100 rage from reju, you are under-raging. That dude whose name is wick had a mental block and went way too deep into the rabbit hole about over-raging. He was not thinking correctly. Rather, he was memeing this whole over-raging idea. Here is why you don’t care about over-raging: 1. You don’t generate 16 rage from counter attack. 2. In attack tree, you don’t generate the 6 rage per turn because you are not getting hit with a basic attack. 3. If you only generate 100 rage from reju, you are missing rage for that turn when you can have 220 rage that turn. TLDR: wick had a mental block about over-raging. He had an agenda and it blinded him to reality
Nice video 😁 interesting results will definitely share it. Happy to see that my previous comment on the ring made an impact the burning blood gives 6 when hit by a basic attack😉 not when deals BA... but based on what you said in your video it seems like it wouldn't change the result😌
19:08 remember also if you get the 1 second of use of the horn that means your 5 second of off time isnt 5 seconds, but 2-3 sekond if you got out w8 for 2 sek before reengaing
Good info ^^ Liu Che's expertise also triggers the Undying Fury and Burning Blood talents a second time. So it generates 95-104 extra rage rather than just 86.
@@Arji141 GG contributes +5% normal damage. It scales additively with other normal damage bonuses, and your total normal damage scales multiplicatively with smite damage, white hits, and counter attacks. So GG has a maximum damage increase of 5%, but the more normal damage your march has the worse it starts to scale. For example, LC/William gets +7.5% normal damage from talents, 10% from LC's 4th skill, 10% from WW's 4th skill, and 5% from arch formation. That's 32.5% total normal damage without GG or 37.5% normal damage with GG. White hits and counter attacks each do 200 damage factor. Without GG, they would scale up to: 200 * 1.325 = 265 damage factor. With GG, they would scale up to: 200 * 1.375 = 275 damage factor -- which is about a 3.6% increase over the no GG build.
9:15 This part is important when he tells us the over rage problem is very small. I calculated the over rage to only happen 7.5% of basic attacks by multiplying 3/10 by 1/4 bc horn triggers 30% of basic attacks and combo attack triggers 25% of basic attacks so they’d only line up 7.5% percent of time which is when they’d over rage.
What would happen if we add destructive inscription to this study? meaning we will lose some rage for more damage. Thanks for vid i gained many intersting insights
Silent trial actually works great with lc because it has no cool down. But horn is the best. Hands down. In a field fight he will fire off what seems like every 2 seconds. Scip lc ring and horn.
Silent trial is ass in open field. You are going back and forth engage and disengage. That does way more than silent trial can ever have a chance to have a meaningful effect.
Hey man, just wanna add 1 thing that i noticed, the horn making the skill cycle 1 turn faster is not the same as +10% damage, it's just +10% to the skill damage (smite in the case of liu), normal/counter damage is not affected.
Actually it’s not a damage bonus, nor a skill/smite damage bonus either. I think that’s what he meant by 10% « dps » in the sheet. But I get it’s then confusing as this 10% is also in the comparison with other accessories. You can’t compare Ring and GG with a horn, because they simply not the same. Horn is not a bonus (so an additive effect) to damage. Its effectiveness is depending of the base damage from active skills and the current bonuses applying. Even if it’s still not exactly that, you could more see it working as an equivalent to a boost, but certainly not a bonus. But, tbf, hard to find the perfect way to compare those
I was able convert the Horn into DPS increase by: LC+WW case, WITHOUT HORN, you do 2200 dmg factor as AA (9 turns, including expertise proc) and 7460 dmg factor as skill damage (5 target) in 9 seconds. Total 9660 dmg factor in 9 sec = 1073 dmg factor per second. WITH HORN, you do 2000 dmg factor as AA (8 turns, including expertise proc) and 7460 dmg factor as skill damage in 8 seconds. Total 9460 dmg factor in 8 sec = 1183 dmg factor per second. If you compare, this was 10.17% dmg factor per second increase. on Single target it was 9.22% increase. This AVG DPS increase can be even higher if the WW did AOE damage. I needed to do this rough DPS conversion in order to compare it with GG and Ring, to have same metrics.
@BilegtROK where is the 7460 damage factor number from? that meant to be liu + wallace skill? Liu skill does 5625 if it hits 5 targets, 2250x5/2 (reduction maxes out at 50% or you'd do more damage to 4 targets than 5). You're also not counting counterattack here right? since that would double the 200/turn damage factor? In which case the wallace damage is 2400, and happens 2 turns after liu, so you need to go through to turn 11 without horn, 10 with. Looking at the maths myself, you end up with a 6.75% increase if there IS counterattack (Wallace damage goes to 2700), and 5% inrease without counterattack involved (Wallace damage at 2400). No Horn: 200x11+200x2 (normal+2x expertise proc) = 2600 + 200x11+200x2 (counter+2x expertise proc) = 2600 + 5625+2700 (primary skills) = 13525/11 = 1230 DPS Horn: 200x10+200x2 (normal+2x expertise proc) = 2400 + 200x10+200x2 (counter+2x expertise proc) = 2400 + 5625+2700 (primary skills) = 13125/10 = 1313 DPS Difference = 1313/1230x100-100 = 6.7468% This 6.75% damage increase is in line with maths I have seen in the past for Horn vs Ring maths, mind you it does depend on which commander you're looking at, so it seems correct to me. Ring giving around 7-8% is also in line with numbers I have previously seen, the conclusions were always that ring was a bit better than horn on average in the long run, however given the importance of that 1st skill cycle in the field, Horn is generally a better field accessory.
@@BilegtROKNot exactly. As I told you, horn won’t work exactly the same as a damage bonus. So yea, doing dps comparison is good, but once you compare with Ring or Horn, you won’t be able to accurately compare them. Because horn is not increasing directly the dmg, not adding another additive (or multiplier) like the two others. Horn efficiency in terms of dmg per second increase relies on current dmg bonuses. For example : I take only single target dmg. LC/Wallace and we push the calculation to WW casting his active skill, on up to turn 11 with no horn, and turn 10 with horn. No horn, not taking any dmg bonus into account : for 11 turns, your total dmg base is 7250 for 11 turns With horn, not taking any dmg bonuses : for 10 turns’ your total dmg base is 7050 for 10 turns Which means : 6,9% increase of dps Now, we have the current NA and smite dmg bonuses these two commanders have (I don’t take even Arch or attack or anything out of the skills in consideration for sake of simplicity) No horn : for 11 turns, dmg is 10653 With horn : for 10 turns, dmg is 10413 Which means : 7,5% increase of dps Do you get what I mean now, by it is actually more working as a boost rather than just as bonus? It’s difficult to compare these accessories. Horn benefits of you having already dmg bonuses increasing dmg from your active skills, and so benefits of having already a ring or a GG. GG don’t benefit much of having a horn, it just remove one turn of NA, but Ring benefits of horn by having more chances to land on an active skill. As I already told, Horn and Ring have a great synergy
I havent done the math on Dagger, but here is a quick calculation. Dagger will proc once every 3.5 seconds, same as Horn. Thanks to expertise proc, this might go down to 3 sec. The idea is that on average, it will constantly have only 1 stack. Will not go up to 2 stacks that often and certainly not 3 stacks. In my previous Awaken vs Special video, I concluded that 10HP = 6% dmg reduction roughly. So with 1 stacks, 5% HP reduced, you are doing 3% more bonus damage to that target. If we see this as 1 march stand point, of course this is nowhere near good compared to the other accessories, BUT, if multiple march is attacking that target, all other marches will benefit from the Dagger. So its not as bad as you think. Dagger can be great accessory when you swarm Objectives. But at the same time, because of the open field meta, you might lose half of the value, just like ring. Need much more testing and simulations.
Good brother, thanks for your videos first. Regarding Liu Chen from Pirmerio for field can use horn / ring better than glory major /ring ? is that they say that the limit of fury is 220 and with expertise if you horn it is wasted. cordial greetings
Overraging is a common misconception. And the word « wasted » not really the good one in most of the case scenarios. For extra rage of horn to be wasted, you should have reach the cap already on that turn without it. It’s not because you go over the cap after it’s diminished with the addition of the horn that you have no benefits. First, it’s not in every turn that expertise and horn will proc together. The turns they proc one or the other are a huge benefit of having a horn. Then, if you have already the expertise, and you are not targeted, on this turn your raw rage will be 187. Which means that the horn will just advance you to the cap, and even if some of this rage could be not beneficial, the gap it filled (202 to 220 capped in this explanation) might be enough to make you end your skill cycle one turn faster and make you cast your active skills faster. Which is very crucial in openfield nowadays. Horn have still the potential to be a great help. Then’ it’s just a player’s preference to ever use it or to prefer Ring + GG.
Most ppl are dumb af because they count 16 rage from counter attack. No. That is an idot way to fight. If you are fighting correctly, you never want to generate 16 rage from counter attack. That is: you don’t want ppl to hit you with a normal attack. [if they hit you, that is when you activate counter attack]. DO NOT COUNT the 16 rage from counter attack. You never want to produce counter attack.
![Mayan Skills Revealed! [Siyaj K'ak' and Wak Chanil Ajaw] Rise of Kingdoms](/img/n.gif)
Burning blood in Attack tree gives 6 rage when you RECEIVE basic attack, in support tree gives 9 rage when you DEAL basic attacks
Thanks for point this out man! I quickly redid the simulation, and thankfully the overall result was still the same. Thanks again!
Yes, actually this goes in favor of horn in addition!
After paying close attention to this video, to sum it up for the people who didn’t understand, there’s only a 7.5% chance that the the horn over rages when you use it because the horn’s rage has to line up with the rage from the combo attack. Therefore the over rage theory is not a big deal because the other 92.5% of the time, the horn will still get the most of the rage. This guy did a very good job explaining it, the only thing didn’t understand was what basic attacks were but then I assumed it was the white attacks that weren’t from skills and I’m 99% sure I’m right. Thanks for the informative video, you earned yourself a sub
Rok changed the naming... now:
Normal damage is (smith damage,) basic damage and counter-damage. Smith damage is similar to skill damage except of the damage calculation.
Basic damage (previously named normal damage) is the damage you deal every turn to the selected target (deals the equivalent of 200 damage factor per second)
Counter damage is damage you deal back to every enemies that attacked you with a basic damage (deals the equivalent of 200 damage factor per second)
Counter + basic damage = white numbers you see on your screen
I wanted to share my personal experience in KVK. I'm running three marches: Liu Che + Alex, Ragnar + Scipio, and Zhuge + Herman.
For gear, both my Ragnar + Scipio and Zhuge + Herman are equipped with Horn and Ring, while my Liu Che only has a Ring. Despite this, I’ve noticed something interesting.
In my battles, my Liu Che + Alex consistently outperforms the other two marches and gives better trades. On top of that, Liu Che almost always activates his skill first, even compared to my other marches that have Horns.
From my experience, I don’t think the Horn is necessary for Liu Che.
I recommend pairing a Ring + GG for Liu Che. That’s just my personal take after running Liu Che without a Horn alongside my other marches.
To be giving this much information and only having 1k subs is crazy, everyone needs to sub right now
Yep, that is very correct. Do not worry about overraging. If you only get 100 rage from reju, you are under-raging. That dude whose name is wick had a mental block and went way too deep into the rabbit hole about over-raging. He was not thinking correctly. Rather, he was memeing this whole over-raging idea. Here is why you don’t care about over-raging: 1. You don’t generate 16 rage from counter attack. 2. In attack tree, you don’t generate the 6 rage per turn because you are not getting hit with a basic attack. 3. If you only generate 100 rage from reju, you are missing rage for that turn when you can have 220 rage that turn. TLDR: wick had a mental block about over-raging. He had an agenda and it blinded him to reality
Nice video 😁 interesting results will definitely share it.
Happy to see that my previous comment on the ring made an impact
the burning blood gives 6 when hit by a basic attack😉 not when deals BA... but based on what you said in your video it seems like it wouldn't change the result😌
Great vid.
Would be really interested to see a Drums comparison here too given how well Liu's expertise works with instant proc chance effects.
Same here, would be great if you could make a video for the drums
Exactly the type of RoK content I was looking for.
19:08 remember also if you get the 1 second of use of the horn that means your 5 second of off time isnt 5 seconds, but 2-3 sekond if you got out w8 for 2 sek before reengaing
Good info ^^
Liu Che's expertise also triggers the Undying Fury and Burning Blood talents a second time. So it generates 95-104 extra rage rather than just 86.
Agree + i think you count GG wrong. GG contributes 5% to active skill, white hits and counterattack damage
@@Arji141
GG contributes +5% normal damage. It scales additively with other normal damage bonuses, and your total normal damage scales multiplicatively with smite damage, white hits, and counter attacks. So GG has a maximum damage increase of 5%, but the more normal damage your march has the worse it starts to scale.
For example, LC/William gets +7.5% normal damage from talents, 10% from LC's 4th skill, 10% from WW's 4th skill, and 5% from arch formation. That's 32.5% total normal damage without GG or 37.5% normal damage with GG.
White hits and counter attacks each do 200 damage factor.
Without GG, they would scale up to: 200 * 1.325 = 265 damage factor.
With GG, they would scale up to: 200 * 1.375 = 275 damage factor -- which is about a 3.6% increase over the no GG build.
New Combo talent tree and commander has been released. I'm waiting for video about it too!
Glad to see my theory’s confirmed by real math, good vid, Liu Che is the goat 🐐
9:15 This part is important when he tells us the over rage problem is very small. I calculated the over rage to only happen 7.5% of basic attacks by multiplying 3/10 by 1/4 bc horn triggers 30% of basic attacks and combo attack triggers 25% of basic attacks so they’d only line up 7.5% percent of time which is when they’d over rage.
When you could have made your family so proud with your math skills but you downloaded rise of kingdoms instead
17:30 "on the other hand, ring might not proc never, infinitely" 💀
I know some people that definitely would think they are THIS cursed 😭🙏
The Best, thanks matematic man for your effort 👍
What would happen if we add destructive inscription to this study? meaning we will lose some rage for more damage. Thanks for vid i gained many intersting insights
I am watching this video at the beginning and praying my ring and GG are not a mistake. 320 legendary materials on the line...no big deal. 😱😱😱
Ugh... Thanks for the video. Looks like I need to swap the ring for a horn. Thx!
Not a big deal you can just switch it to another commander. Ring works on every other commander
Silent trial actually works great with lc because it has no cool down. But horn is the best. Hands down. In a field fight he will fire off what seems like every 2 seconds. Scip lc ring and horn.
Silent trial is ass in open field. You are going back and forth engage and disengage. That does way more than silent trial can ever have a chance to have a meaningful effect.
I arrived for answers and ended up more confused😂. Anyway I'll go for GG, smite is very good and LC/WW's insta proc are worth buffing.
What armament should I put on WW that will work better than the horn?
I was thinking of making GG for my ww/liu march and i think i will make it.
I m using it for now for that march as well as gorgo hera garrison. Especially i m using GG + ring. It stomps
@@michamaciejewski2091 Smite is definitely very dangerous, especially in commanders with a lot of counterattack
Thanks ❤ 👍
Mullet goes crazy
🔥
Hey man, just wanna add 1 thing that i noticed, the horn making the skill cycle 1 turn faster is not the same as +10% damage, it's just +10% to the skill damage (smite in the case of liu), normal/counter damage is not affected.
Actually it’s not a damage bonus, nor a skill/smite damage bonus either. I think that’s what he meant by 10% « dps » in the sheet. But I get it’s then confusing as this 10% is also in the comparison with other accessories. You can’t compare Ring and GG with a horn, because they simply not the same. Horn is not a bonus (so an additive effect) to damage. Its effectiveness is depending of the base damage from active skills and the current bonuses applying. Even if it’s still not exactly that, you could more see it working as an equivalent to a boost, but certainly not a bonus. But, tbf, hard to find the perfect way to compare those
I was able convert the Horn into DPS increase by:
LC+WW case, WITHOUT HORN, you do 2200 dmg factor as AA (9 turns, including expertise proc) and 7460 dmg factor as skill damage (5 target) in 9 seconds. Total 9660 dmg factor in 9 sec = 1073 dmg factor per second. WITH HORN, you do 2000 dmg factor as AA (8 turns, including expertise proc) and 7460 dmg factor as skill damage in 8 seconds. Total 9460 dmg factor in 8 sec = 1183 dmg factor per second. If you compare, this was 10.17% dmg factor per second increase. on Single target it was 9.22% increase. This AVG DPS increase can be even higher if the WW did AOE damage. I needed to do this rough DPS conversion in order to compare it with GG and Ring, to have same metrics.
@BilegtROK where is the 7460 damage factor number from? that meant to be liu + wallace skill?
Liu skill does 5625 if it hits 5 targets, 2250x5/2 (reduction maxes out at 50% or you'd do more damage to 4 targets than 5).
You're also not counting counterattack here right? since that would double the 200/turn damage factor? In which case the wallace damage is 2400, and happens 2 turns after liu, so you need to go through to turn 11 without horn, 10 with.
Looking at the maths myself, you end up with a 6.75% increase if there IS counterattack (Wallace damage goes to 2700), and 5% inrease without counterattack involved (Wallace damage at 2400).
No Horn: 200x11+200x2 (normal+2x expertise proc) = 2600 + 200x11+200x2 (counter+2x expertise proc) = 2600 + 5625+2700 (primary skills) = 13525/11 = 1230 DPS
Horn: 200x10+200x2 (normal+2x expertise proc) = 2400 + 200x10+200x2 (counter+2x expertise proc) = 2400 + 5625+2700 (primary skills) = 13125/10 = 1313 DPS
Difference = 1313/1230x100-100 = 6.7468%
This 6.75% damage increase is in line with maths I have seen in the past for Horn vs Ring maths, mind you it does depend on which commander you're looking at, so it seems correct to me.
Ring giving around 7-8% is also in line with numbers I have previously seen, the conclusions were always that ring was a bit better than horn on average in the long run, however given the importance of that 1st skill cycle in the field, Horn is generally a better field accessory.
@@BilegtROKNot exactly. As I told you, horn won’t work exactly the same as a damage bonus. So yea, doing dps comparison is good, but once you compare with Ring or Horn, you won’t be able to accurately compare them. Because horn is not increasing directly the dmg, not adding another additive (or multiplier) like the two others. Horn efficiency in terms of dmg per second increase relies on current dmg bonuses.
For example : I take only single target dmg. LC/Wallace and we push the calculation to WW casting his active skill, on up to turn 11 with no horn, and turn 10 with horn.
No horn, not taking any dmg bonus into account : for 11 turns, your total dmg base is 7250 for 11 turns
With horn, not taking any dmg bonuses : for 10 turns’ your total dmg base is 7050 for 10 turns
Which means : 6,9% increase of dps
Now, we have the current NA and smite dmg bonuses these two commanders have (I don’t take even Arch or attack or anything out of the skills in consideration for sake of simplicity)
No horn : for 11 turns, dmg is 10653
With horn : for 10 turns, dmg is 10413
Which means : 7,5% increase of dps
Do you get what I mean now, by it is actually more working as a boost rather than just as bonus? It’s difficult to compare these accessories.
Horn benefits of you having already dmg bonuses increasing dmg from your active skills, and so benefits of having already a ring or a GG. GG don’t benefit much of having a horn, it just remove one turn of NA, but Ring benefits of horn by having more chances to land on an active skill. As I already told, Horn and Ring have a great synergy
So i shouldnt use my Dagger with RIng on Liu che? Seems like the worst 2 accessories to use for it.
I havent done the math on Dagger, but here is a quick calculation. Dagger will proc once every 3.5 seconds, same as Horn. Thanks to expertise proc, this might go down to 3 sec. The idea is that on average, it will constantly have only 1 stack. Will not go up to 2 stacks that often and certainly not 3 stacks. In my previous Awaken vs Special video, I concluded that 10HP = 6% dmg reduction roughly. So with 1 stacks, 5% HP reduced, you are doing 3% more bonus damage to that target. If we see this as 1 march stand point, of course this is nowhere near good compared to the other accessories, BUT, if multiple march is attacking that target, all other marches will benefit from the Dagger. So its not as bad as you think. Dagger can be great accessory when you swarm Objectives. But at the same time, because of the open field meta, you might lose half of the value, just like ring. Need much more testing and simulations.
Good brother, thanks for your videos first. Regarding Liu Chen from Pirmerio for field can use horn / ring better than glory major /ring ? is that they say that the limit of fury is 220 and with expertise if you horn it is wasted. cordial greetings
Overraging is a common misconception. And the word « wasted » not really the good one in most of the case scenarios. For extra rage of horn to be wasted, you should have reach the cap already on that turn without it. It’s not because you go over the cap after it’s diminished with the addition of the horn that you have no benefits. First, it’s not in every turn that expertise and horn will proc together. The turns they proc one or the other are a huge benefit of having a horn. Then, if you have already the expertise, and you are not targeted, on this turn your raw rage will be 187. Which means that the horn will just advance you to the cap, and even if some of this rage could be not beneficial, the gap it filled (202 to 220 capped in this explanation) might be enough to make you end your skill cycle one turn faster and make you cast your active skills faster. Which is very crucial in openfield nowadays. Horn have still the potential to be a great help. Then’ it’s just a player’s preference to ever use it or to prefer Ring + GG.
@davorkapetanovic4257 then the horn in liuchen is wasted y es mejor gg +ring
don't forget to like and subscribe to Liu Chennel 😎
what would be best if I have dagger on liu, horn or GG?
horn
i just crafted a ring for my scipio lie che march :(((
For Scipio LC march, you can use Ring+Horn. If you have a march that has rage engine (including William cav comm support march), you can use those 2.
Is your hair turning Grey?
yes with all these RNG. nah im just kidding 😂 its a failed bleach attempt.
@BilegtROK LMAO! I thought to myself no way his hair turned Grey that much in that short of time 😅
Most ppl are dumb af because they count 16 rage from counter attack. No. That is an idot way to fight. If you are fighting correctly, you never want to generate 16 rage from counter attack. That is: you don’t want ppl to hit you with a normal attack. [if they hit you, that is when you activate counter attack]. DO NOT COUNT the 16 rage from counter attack. You never want to produce counter attack.
By your logic then vengeance should be the best
Rally & Garrison situation where you are expected to get swarmed.
🤓🧮🙌🏻