Ahhh, it makes sense to me now. The statue of the young Marika with the toothless wolves must be representing how order tamed chaos. The little girl is serenely sitting in the middle of a pack of beasts who have no bite left.
I just found your channel tonight and man I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT! I'm an absolute freaking nerd about the things I enjoy & your channel 100% scratches that itch!! So good!!
Who would have thought that game that for some reason that i love so much and hate at time. Game that created moments of real happiness overcoming obstacles in manner of bosses and being source of frustration when i fell down into crevice or got slain by something very easy. Now thanks to your videos @CenteredTarnished i've discovered why this game resonates with me on so many subconscious levels. It was never how world looked, or what monsters inhabited it. It was always about this inner journey of self development. Game hat helped me understand true definition of symbolism of trinity on all possible levels. On macro and micro scale. I that i aspire to be (godhood, unity, oneness). I the present (human, split, duality). I the dark shadow (corruption, darkness, demons). All states at once (future/present/past) merged by greater will to evolve that rough soul into pristine form. Time we experience is process of constant change. Change that can make one soul to progress or regress. Only higher self that overcomes mind can push that change in the right direction... If more of us understood this process we could speed it up collectively without so much traumas we have to go through to force that change on societal level. So all that will come soon that will affect all of us. Division, economic collapse no matter how harsh it will treat us it will make us better on the level that always mattered the most - spiritual.
I think you are on the money about elden ring. IMO the thematic implications of the game are far more important than the placement of every little art asset or cut dialogue when it comes to understanding the story. Hope this channel gains some more traction because this game is a work of genius and maybe you can help the gamers see the forest and not just the um… erd… trees Great work keep it up
I'm currently doing an in depth exploration into the metaphysics of Elden Ring and you've alluded to certain things in my script. I really liked the interesting dynamic you have posed with the three body problem reflecting the nature of chaos. In the movie 'The Platform', most of the movie revolves around 2 people in a single room. Regardless of how hard to deal with a person might be, it is manageable. But when the platform has moved and now multiple people was taken into the equation, it became infinitely more complex and unpredictable. Here is a different proposition. 3 fingers as 3D opposing the 2 fingers' 2d Worldview. By which I mean the frenzy flame having a dimensional increase over the Greater will. Since the greater will operates on the principle of duality and has a life reinforcing bias with Marika's order, frenzy flame is proposing to go 'beyond' this dualistic worldview and towards the non dual via non existence. However within this analogy I think it would be more fitting if the three fingers were actually 'one finger' to symbolize the non duality Frenzy flame yearns for. Your 3 body analogy for chaos is also very strong and thematic.
I love your videos and ideas, any chance we could get a colab with Centered Tarnished and try to unify the ideas of Metaphysics and Jung psychology? These concepts are so difficult to understand, I swear I'm having to watch your and CT's videos 3 or 4 times to fully grasp the ideas.
I've just discovered your channel and been watching your videos non-stop. It's 9am, I haven't gone to bed yet. Welp. Instant subscribe! Love your theory - it further shows how great pieces of art can be interpreted in so many compelling ways. Just layers after layers after layers. Lots of love and keep it up!
With this vid theorizing Marika being present from the very beginning as the first elden ring age that implies she was Lord Placidusax's fled god, which could make sense, Marika left him and never came back. Ooooohhhhhh.... Bruh, first time seeing one of your vids, instant subscribe You do a really dang good job of expressing your thoughts in a way this viewer can grasp. LOVED the discussion and psychological take on the lore. It's very unique (and, again, very well presented) ~a random canadian new subscriber dude
I came and subbed from the long video you did with crunchy and I'm going to get caught up on your content but I'm really appreciative of your views on elden ring
I got more into the lore from your theories. I 100% agree with the Carl Jung aspects. I also think there are subjects, theories and philosphies etc involved in the game that Jung showed an interest in. Mainly Hermeticism. The more I look the more I see paralells. A deck of Hermetic Tarot cards were made by a man named Godfrey haha, maybe a nod to him. "Elden John" I believe is holding what would be the Emerald Tablets. "As above, so below". Looking into all these things and what you've said with the Jungian psychology I have a theory on the DLC that basically Marika (whether intentional or not I can't guess) has gone against the whole order of harmony. I believe that the Shaodow has a royal who is connected to Marika and there is a mutual responsibility on each side of the tree. I think maybe in cycles the Lands Between and the Shadow are supposed the share knowledge, life and abundance. I think in the same way as the snake eating itself, both lands are supposed to sustain each other and in turn sustain themselves. I think the agreement / order has been broken and as I said, it might not be as clear as Marika being greedy and taking her share and the shadow lands too. I think the theory of the tree of life and the tree of knowledge is they're supposed to pass each on and share for there to be harmony. There does seem to be lots of connections to alchemy, I'd say look into the alchemical wedding.
I love your videos, I've watched them all, but I will definitely watch them again. I like the thought that there is inspiration drawn from Tarot cards too, as Jung spoke about that too. The interesting thing is that every card has a reverse / a "shadow". The most important card is the Fool, and it shows a man stepping onto a cliff edge about to fall off in the beginning that implies going on a journey and going into the unknown. That's the first thing we do when at the Chapel of Anticipation
So my final overall thoughts. My theory is that Miquella's plan is to fuse with Messmer to become a god of the Shadow plane (the soul realm). In Alchemy and Hermeticism it's worth looking into the Alchemical Wedding. Miquella and Messmer are 2 sides of the same coin. Like Marika and Radagon. I believe Marika and Radagon were once separate and she ascended her qualities that made her the other half of Radagon. I believe they fused in the same principal of the Alchemical Wedding. I think each Empyrean has a plane they must belong on. There are 3 general planes of exiatence: the physical, the astral / mind, and the soul. I believe each Empyrean aligns wirh this; Malenia being the physical plane where she is a swordswoman who's main deal is decay, rot and rebirth. Ranni being the Astral / mind / psychic. And Miquella being of the soul. Based on this I believe the butterflies represent each Empyrean. Since we're on the Lands Between I believe we are on the Astral (Ranni's) plane. I think Miquella knew this and that's why he never chose to fight Ranni because he knew it was her plane to begin with. The Astral plane is the 2nd stage in the cycle: Physical > Astral > Soul, so it would make sense it would be the Lands Between. I think Ranni and Miquella (maybe Malenia too) all conspired in the Night of the black knives. My theory beforehand is that Marika made it impossible for the Empyreans to leave to their respective planes because she didn't want to lose any children and broke the cycle. I believe across the other planes there will be respective "other half" Empyreans for both Ranni and Malenia too. - I have a dew more ideas that seem to go with these theories and make sense. Between looking at Jungian Psychology, Hermeticism, Alcehmy, Tarot, Kyballah and the Rosicrucians, there is some real similarities.
Damn, another fucking Banger. i love how you disect the "deep" lore of the game, helps me a ton in my personal work (creative process etc...). Thanks a lot!
2:50 This seems like a slight distinction, but the GW doesn't care about order. It was cool with the chaos of the crucible. In fact, it may not "care" about anything and is simply a natural force of the world that derives from the runes of the inhabitants of the Lands. However, that slight distinction is actually the fundamental misunderstanding that ruined the Golden Order.
13:30 The Elden Ring can exist because it has a vessel to wield it, whereas the Elden Beast is the Greater Will forming a body of pure runes without a suitable vessel. I don't think we're travelling in time within the Erdtree, but I think we should note the similarities to the evergaols which seem to be alternate dimensions. The root the problem? I think that's very deliberately left open to interpretation, so I'll just say that fear of change is one of humanity's most heinous traits.
16:30 Yes, I totally agree that the arrival of the Greater Will is essentially one and the same as the advent of consciousness (or perhaps just sentience, since animals can also generate runes). I don't see it necessarily as the Elden Beast bringing order, but rather being drawn to it because of the collective willpower involved in order's creation.
19:00 I think that's a pretty good thematic analysis of the 3 wolves statue. Pretty sure we're gonna get a more tangible connection once we learn more about Marika's origins and the crucible in Shadow of the Erdtree.
31:00 Since the Greater Will is the embodiment of sentience, it follows that a dearth of sound minds in the Lands would cause it to fade away. And that is what we have after an extended time in which everyone withers in unending life and loses purpose and meaning.
CenT! The hunt for causality's cause is my irl main quest so this video hits me double-trouble. To see the evolution or development of sentient consciousness as what brought order and structure into chaos is something i struggle with for the following reason. i believe there is symmetry in chaos but i don't believe cosmic harmony predisposes of a binary, linear structure or order (patterns, duality). Duality is of chaos but not what makes harmony a symphony by "it"self. Hence :) my mortal query knot is duality requires some-thing relative to the concept in order (badumtsss) to establish itself. however, i like your suggestion (if i understood u correctly) of Elden Beast being the cause of what caused the beginning of rupture in the rumble that was "chaotic". but not the birth of sentience! we're not down to the root of the Tree. yet. i have to go to work (my justice for Marika campaign doesn't pay my tarnished bills yet) so i will be sure to revisit this comment and further amend, it's SUCH a good vid. love your takes and while i am nowhere near being a Jungenineer like yourself, am a hintuitive little snek wishing to short-circuit the gaps Miyazaki intentionally left wide open for us - reminiscent of his youth when he had lack of language and started to narrate his stories using the powerful magic of wake dreaming 💜🐉🚬
What a comment! Yes, it seems that prior to the Elden Beast, there was no Order in the universe OR Marika at all. Everything prior to the EB must have been completely chaotic and disorderly since the very concept of Order was not even introduced yet. I do think the EB was just the introduction of Order and consciousness to the world- like match that starts a fire. It seems that what that order evolves in to is up the the “god” of that world.
the b*m*i (Body, Mind and Intellect) gymnastics i am purrrforming are impspired by Chalmer's philosophical take on The Hard Problem Of Consciousness as well as Prof. Margaret F. Washburn's "The Animal Mind", are you familiar with the latter, @CenteredTarnished ? i forgot to ask you earlier. oversimplified: what if the difference (in consciousness) is one of degree, not of kind. Note that i believe any of my vetos on single treads you weave are still possible to integrate into your take because where you intrigued me most is in describing the intricacies of the Elden Beast with the different 3D, worldly and metaphysical elements it may represent. "Order" to me, and that's the thing, gives me strong "Control, Power, Dominance" resonance and not intelligent structure as in an organic, connected and attuned with environment flow grow. more manipulation, lies and deception. like the little girl with the wolves praying gives me GRRM "warging" with them vibes. what if on the surface we have a his-storical conflict with spiritual colonization for spice, who perceived local rites and customs in a chaotic and primitive way. Remember that pSaxx had sum heads chopped off with II remaining. i differ between a NuMen Marika who lived a long time ago and a Myth that became it's own RingThing but is not related, masqueraded, that mystical power got harnessed and instrumentalized against Her will. For me the meteor started the devolution of men separating from (Mother) nature, the Great Forgetting of Tree - who knows that meteor loaded with Alien DNA might've even crashed into the OG tree, because that 14:10 position gives me very "Golden Seed spreading time". if Culture dictates what behaviour is appropriate then Progress and Regress go hand-in-hand too. i try to discern between what i think is true and what i think is fair and just but i am not immune to propaganda! which is why i love your psychology takes on interpreting what's presented and i am confronted with my own Lackanian Life Strive, both in-game and AFK. these my comments be way too long, maybe i will join y'all on discord or sum 😹 i want to believe! #justiceformarika
If great runes come in pairs of opposites, as shown at 12:36, what do you think Miquella's and Ranni's great runes represent and what their opposite would be? Just in case, the rune of the unborn was probably Messmer's rune if your theory of Marika losing a child and him being said child is correct and the dlc trailer already confirmed what Miquella's rune looks Iike.
I know it’s not the consensus, but I’ve always seen Ranni’s ending as “giving up” or suicide. Very nihilistic in nature. Basically being so broken and traumatized that the only way to escape the pain is to end everything. Miquella seems to be the opposite of that. Striving the help others escape the clutches of Outer Gods (I believe those to be mental illnesses) and healing them through, well essentially, therapy. Just like how a therapist will guide one through a trauma and help them heal, I believe Miquella is the same. Guiding Marika back to the heart of her trauma (presumably Messmer) and assisting in healing it. I think the ending of the DLC trailer tells us Marika was successful in this quest. Time will tell!
isn’t it the Flame of Frenzy’s ethos and ending which is more in line with what you describe as Ranni’s ending? Ranni’s ending is about freeing the world from the meddling of gods, for better or worse. Fear and doubt and darkness of the unknown, no longer pawns to be used by the gods, but rather masters of our own fates. Scary, yes, but also hopeful and exciting. That is what it is to be an individual, it gives meaning to the connections we make. As opposed to going through the motions of a god’s plan, or the non-existence of chaos; the wholeness without individual thought or experience.
I think it depends on how you interpret wholeness. To me, you need both order and chaos to be a true individual and thus authentic and whole. The FF ending seems to be the scales tipping in the opposite direction. A complete lack of order and take over of chaos- almost the opposite of Goldmasks. Ranni’s ending seems to lack any of those elements. No order or chaos= no order or evolution. The dark moon is cold and dark, her journey is about leaving this world for good and something she has to do alone. One still has to live and operate within society and its rules. Being a complete individual is about moving society forward while still honoring your authentic self. To me, unfortunately to completely remove one’s self from the laws and rules of society is to remove yourself from that world. Again, just my interpretation and it does depend on how you view the Greater Will and “gods” of Elden Ring. Because I view the GW as progression or evolution, Ranni stopping/killing that is the end of those things. Not a regression to chaos like in the FF ending, but rather a complete ending to it. A bit rambly but hopefully I’m making sense. Ranni seems to be ending something completely. No order. No chaos. Just dark nothingness
Not to worry, I follow you! I don’t disagree with your analysis, but with your initial interpretation of Ranni’s ending and likewise the FoF. I don’t think Ranni’s ending is representative of what you describe. FF is despair, the complete lack of hope, the inability to go on living because living is pain. It is madness that yearns for oblivion. This to me screams suicide, not Ranni’s ending. Ranni’s ending speaks of loneliness, true, but I think that is the loneliness that is born from individuality, separation from the mother etc. In her ending she isn’t alone, she takes her eternal consort with her. And she is removing herself from the world, so that life may govern itself. Ranni’s compassion and integrity make her presence in the world a contradiction to her beliefs if she were to stay. When I mentioned wholeness, it was to describe the lack of individual thought or ego, a singular formless non-existence . I didn’t mean the wholeness of a healthy adult psyche, or that of an enlightened being that has achieved oneness. I like your position that we need a combination of order and chaos to be complete, it’s balance right? Yin and Yang. Viewing chaos through the lens of physics rather than psychology though, you could interpret it as being a state of high entropy or disorder, where there is no workable energy to maintain life, in other words the heat death of the universe. This I think is distinct from the crucible which was a state of low entropy. I don’t think FF can return the world back to this state, and even if it could, life would simply start over again. I definitely rambled too much! I know we have differing takes, but it’s really only your interpretation of Ranni’s ending which I find contentious 😅
I believe that the great rune that Ranni set aside was her half of the death rune that was carved into her flesh, by definition it is literally a rune that she set aside, and Miquella's is obviously that of abundance contrasting with the of Malenia which is decadence, in the game's cut content we have several mentions that link Miquella with the concept of abundance
I think FA is Marika’s childhood being reflected in the story there. Going from operating completely on instincts and the unconscious matrix (childhood) to restraining those to fit in with society I.e. consciousness develops. This child-like state is what Jung refers to as the Self or our true authentic being aka our Inner God. The goal of Individuation is to return to that state of wholeness and authenticity. All that to say that, yes I do think it’s Marika (prior to splitting herself) that is the God Placi is waiting to return. It seems to me the story is about uniting the opposites and returning to that state of Inner God and authenticity - which I believe is what Mairka will be facing the the Shadow Lands
@@positivecontacts it would make sense, if Farum Azula is the inner world of Marika GEQ could very well be being represented in the initial formation of Marika's thoughts since she would be her mother
@@CenteredTarnished Placidusax’s Now Fled God being Marika running away from herself is a neat thought. Radagon does seem to me to be an agent of Regression, bring things back together that were once separated.. in a potentially convoluted way, Rennala being an astronomer who seems to have intimate knowledge of the practices of the Eternal Cities which are ruled by numen and there is some potential that Marika once lived in a now Nameless Eternal City… There is a reunion them involved with the union of moon and tree. Trolls joined moon, bringing the giants back into the union as well. Other stuff
Fantastic video; My view with this logic applied: Forum Azula represents the childhood of Marika on her unconscious, it's just memories, fallen apart, shows her grow until self conscious; The elden beast falling are the culture of society crashing into her consciousness with order and spectators, if left unchecked, can control the whole self; The elden ring its the way Marika uses the structures of society to shape the way she perceives the world Marika its her feminine side, Radagon it's masculine When she forged the elden ring, the tree is born as a system to link all levels of consciousness, but to create thar she needs also create the shadow, literally putting everything she can't present into society in there; The age of plenty is literally the adolescence, abundance and the prime time of her age (her view of the world, the way she perceives it) But it ends fast, and with adulthood, she needs to start to integrate her masculine side and embrace even more order (golden order fundsmentalism) In a attempt to bring back the age of plenty, it doesn't work. Then tragedy strikes, death was something Marika had removed from her order(she never conceived this idea so it's sealed) But in the night of the black knifes, she know destined death, and her whole concept of reality starts to break Marika is dealing with trauma, and her consciousness is break, she shatters all his conceptions The tarnished is someone putting her mind together and building her shattered personality in place thus creating a new order (new world view) and allowing her to move on; The shadow of the erdtree is a walk into her shadow (in a psychological term) Malenia is the decay that happens once you're stuck in the same world view for too long Miquella is her eternal child, powerfull, kind, tries to create a world view but fails (haligtree)
What I wonder about the Greater Will is the distinct use of the word Great'er' and not just Great. I don't know if this is a artifact of translation, but if it is not it implies there are other wills in the world. I like to think that the greater will is supposed to be that which binds the lesser wills of the land between together. The lesser wills being the sentient inhabitants of the lands between. In order for these wills to cooperate productively they must agree on the conventions that will guide them, and this could be the greater will. An important thing to note is that the Elden Beast is 'said to have been sent by the greater will long ago'. This leaves room for the possibility that it is completely unrelated, and perhaps purely prescribed its position as a vassal, from the common belief that the greater will would deliver a power to enact its order. Let us not forget the deep inspiration that Miyazaki Berserk. **Berserk Spoilers ahead** It is a theme in Berserk that the God of the Abyss is man-made, The Idea of Evil[expl 1] is a primal entity residing in the Abyss. It is responsible for dictating the fate of humanity through its application of causality, acting on the species' collective unconscious will. edit: In essence, I look at it in an inverse way when compared to you. I do not see the world as an expression or Marika, but of Marika as the expression of the worlds collective unconscious.
the game doesn't say that Farum azula is before the elden ring, the prehistoric era of dragons was before the erdtree, not the elden ring, I also have doubts if the meteor that hit farum azula was really the Golden Star, there are many mentions of meteors around the game, it could for example be the meteor that brought Astel to the lands between, dragons also seem to be closely linked with gold and the greater will and they even have an appearance that resonates with that of the elden beast, it would be very strange that they were before the greater will and the elden beast,
I’m not sure why it would be strange that dragons would be before everything else. Nearly all other souls games have the same back story. Dragons and lack of order, then something happens that ignites the world. It’s strange that you doubt the meteorite would be the Elden Beast aka the Elden Ring with all the evidence you provide yourself. The similar model, gold, etc. It seems everything points to one thing.
@@CenteredTarnished ancient dragons have golden aspects in their being, their wings have gold as well as their flesh as can be seen in placidusax, they also incorporate different aspects of the crucible but unlike how these characteristics manifest themselves in a disorganized way in the bodies of other creatures , dragons present these characteristics in an organized way, it would be strange the way these creatures are linked with gold if this was not linked to them since their creation, they seem to be literally made of gold as well as stone, if the elden beast was the meteor that hit farum azula it's strange that gold is so present in their culture if since then their city has been crumbling, I also think it's debatable whether the presence of uncivilized beastmen would actually be a setback and not the remnants of how the beastmen were , it's strange that after the assimilation of the beastmen, the culture of Farum Azula, the dragons would simply allow the continuity of a totally wild group of beastnen in their city when there are others who are not like that, like "yeah, leave the group totally unstable and not civilized beastmen unleashed on our city, what harm could they do? cut to the scene of one beastmen eating the corpse of another" I find it quite plausible that the presence of these other beastmen is due to them having been forced to strip away civilization and return to more primitive ways in order to survive since there is basically no food in Farum azula they are forced to cannibalize their own kind and be put on edge
It seems others, if they can manage 2 or more great runes can make their own elden ring, or world rules. The dragons had this, but with something to do with the meteor and fell god(I assume more of the fell god and sun realm will be explored in SotE) and Marika's war with the giants led to her assuming control of the ring, with its runes altered along with the world rules. The greater will might just want an order that can maintain order, it seems at some point the power shifts to Marika, though her elden lord is named the first, there could have been dragons already in control from the beginning, the dragon lord may have already had this title before written history. And along with this could have been an accord with the greater will, which would have would have witnessed the dragons defeat, they did not maintain order. This makes it so an elden ring can exist before or after anyone, because anyone strong enough can change it. This would still make Godfrey the first elden lord of that version of the elden ring, while still having Placidusax a dragon lord of their ring, compaired to an elden lord of the new ring, and both at some point blessed with gold by the greater will. There are many meteor and smaller impacts pocketed around, but there is a really big one, bigger then all the others. Elden stars has a similarity in its placement of timeline based on its description, it is the most ancient of erdtree incantations, but the crucible incants are in the same list, and describe the erdtrees primal vital energies. The giant dead dragon in Leyndell could be a coincidence, but like the timeline described shows a transition of dragons with holy magic, to humans with holy magic. It does not prove it wasn't Astel, but it places the golden meteor rite around the state of transition. As a souls player I always felt like the bell of awakening was missing, but it could be the hammer strikes on the elden ring are what awakened us, like an alarm the order is about to fail, but its like the removal of death broke the world's clock. Im also a huge fan of elderscrolls lore and it reminds me so much of something called a dragon break, which is too much to try to explain, but fun to watch videos of.
@@eldenringpvpenthusiast1710 the crucible is apparently Erdtree itself in a different state and time, probably not a tree exactly but still something of a similar nature that eventually became the erdtree, this could still make the elden star's incantations the oldest derivatives of the Erdtree since the crucible and the erdtree end up almost being synonymous in this case, the dragons have several characteristics of the crucible and are therefore probably responsible for the order of the Crucible that existed before the crucible became the Erdtree, I believe that the meteor that hit Farum Azula it could be an "the shattering" before the one Marika did, I find it interesting that the only race that has stone skin besides the ancient dragons are the onyx lords and if you also notice the stellar beasts like astel and other smaller ones that demonstrate an exterior of stone, could it be that dragons are also beasts that came from the sky in the name of the greater will? Isn't it strange that the elden star's incantation represents the arrival of the elden beast on a golden star but there are particles that separate from the main star? What would this represent? my only answers are either that this represents the arrival of the two fingers with the elden beast or that it represents the emergence of the dragon race when the elden beast arrived in the lands between
@@eldenringpvpenthusiast1710 I find it interesting to mention that Farum Azula's elden ring represents six additional runes to the current elden ring, but I believe that only two of these runes are true, the center Runes seem to be the same as the current one but the other runes do not complete circles as the other ones and you can even see that two of them start to turn into roots, I believe that these runes are actually the "root rune" that is also present in this ring, it is just imitating the shape of other runes, but I I believe that the two smaller ones on each side are true and that one of them is the Great rune of Rennala, the other I have no idea but it could be the rune of Ranni or Messmer that were not revealed (if Messmer has one) it would make sense that were not in the current elden ring since the rune of the unborn was given by Radagon to Rennala long before the Shattering and in the same way that Marika removed the rune of death from the elden ring, she did the same thing with this Great rune that seems represent rebirth, Marika completely changed the laws on life to benefit the erdtree by removing what were the world's original deaths and rebirths and replacing them with the erdtree
And thats why the Frenzied Flame can melt spirits like Torrent, because when the Great One was "the god", Body and Spirit were the same thing, stardust, its like the Godhod of Marika made the one god MAD, splited into duality and Instability, thus the madness and desire to "restart the universe" and the desintegrator touch of yellow flame, big bang temperature.
Great video! I'm more and more hyped for the DLC due to your videos making me see the game from a new perspective. Out of curiosity, will you ever do videos on other Fromsoft titles?
imo the Elden beast is the "active" version of the "avatar of the greater will" and the Elden ring is the "passive" version of the avatar that the greater will switches between when needed. Clearly it was needed considering who and what we killed/did to get to that point.
I think Miquella and Messmer are supposed to represent the Lovers Tarot card as being Twin Flames. When you look at the image on the card it has 2 trees (the tree of knowledge which is abundant, and the tree of life which is dying). There are 2 people, each standing in front of a tree. The card has a serpent and flames on it, as well as a deity presiding over everything. The cards themselves have a reverse in meaning, a "shadow". UPRIGHT: Love, harmony, relationships, values alignment, choices REVERSED: Self-love, disharmony, imbalance, misalignment of values. Maybe their unification will create some form of balance. There is also the idea of a fake Twin Flame, so maybe Miquella felt drawn to who he believed to be his Twin Flame - Messmer, and was gravely mistaken.
I believe the Elden Ring simply contained the Elden Beast as a power source. The Ring's structure constrained and bound the massive potential of the Beast just as social conditioning constrains the animalistic beast within us. Radagon as the vessel of the Ring represents the Ego, the structure of identity that constrains the Beastly Id . Once Radagon is destroyed, it represents the collpase of the Ego and the release of the primitive Id from control. As an aside in this model, Marika is the Superego of the higher principles that instruct the Ego in their efforts to contain the Id. The failure of Marika to adhere to her own principles of Order led her to shatter the Ring, the manifestation of the laws that represent the manifestion of the Suoerego's principles on a practical level, and leave the lands in lawless chaos.
This might be my favorite theory out there for Marika. I’ve had the idea gnawing at me that there has to be some form of enlightenment as a god and that had an effect on the waking world but this is next level and makes so much sense. To be a living god is to be the vessel or reality itself or in this case order I guess. I am 1000 percent more excited for this DLC 😍🥹
The problem with your statement about there being no Elden Ring during the age of the dragons is the fact that they had an Elden lord and god. Both of which predates Marika rule as god. How does that make sense with your theory? A lot of what you were saying up till that point was well thought out and made sense. Encase you don't believe me, I'd suggest reading Dragonlord Placidusax remembrance.
I might have not said that the best during the video. All I am saying is that before the Elden Ring, Elden Beast, Erdtree, etc was the Dragons and Beastmen. During their tenure it seems is when the Elden Ring emerges/ Elden Beast is sent. So both are kind of true. You have Dragons and Beastmen pre-ER and post-ER. One with a total lack of Order and one with the concept of Order introduced. That's kind of my whole argument for why we see the beastmen go from crawling on all fours, eating their fallen ken. To burying them in gold, establishing a religion etc. It's just like all the other souls games where Dragons ruled before there was anything in the universe, but that doesnt mean they weren't involved after the emergence of the "conflict" of the game.
The Elden Beast became the Elden Ring. How this works in my mind is that this critter gathered and bound previously existing Great Runes to itself and, being powerful as it already was, is able to transform into rune form. Runes are, to my understanding , grace bound into magical effect or enchantments. Grace is made from, at least in part, souls. Thus, runes and Great Runes, may contain the will of whom ever produced them. Typically, it seems, making a rune consumes the soul and so the body dies. The Elden Beast does not actually become a Great Rune or the Elden Ring, it shape shifts to show off all the Great Runes it has control of. It is the master of all these powerful Wills, the Greater Will. The Elden Beast, like all those of corrupt power, basically naps and laps up all the grace it can with as little effort as it can. To this end, it lends some power to a host who must carry out its will. Thus, Marika. As having multiple minds screaming inside your head can have a maddening effect, see the demigods with just one Great Rune, empyreans are the preferred host. Empyreans already have the multiple minds thing, they don’t go nuts with extra voices. Anyways, so when the Elden Beast leaves Radagon and converts him into a sword… there’s no time manipulation going on. The beast is canceling its shape-shift. We kill the Elden Beast. The Elden Ring, the runes it had claimed and bound together, remains. We purge the Elden Beast, the Greater Will, from the Elden Ring and free the Great Runes bound to the ring from the influence of the beast.
With my theory of the Elden Beast being the Greater Will, Marika shattering the Elden Ring caused a massive wound to the beast. Bits of the ring, the wounded beast, were expelled as “golden seeds.” Radagon mended the ring with what was left and then raised his seal at the entrance to the Erdtree, locking Marika, himself, the Elden Ring, and the Greater Will(Elden Beast) within. With the seal in place and the Erdtree severed from its roots, through which Fingers actually would commune with the Elden Beast, the Two Fingers lost both direct communication with the Greater Will and the option to use messengers. Learning the details of the seal and that the barrier does not drop when we come to give Great Runes to the Elden Beast, the Roundtable Two Fingers realizes how totally out of the loop it is. So it begins the process of reconnecting its roots with the Erdtree. Desperation has pushed it passed the fear of deathblight which was the reason for the tree and fingers were cut from the roots to begin with.
Just started this game a few weeks ago and binge watching lore vids (along with raging at bosses). Have a question. So the elden beast is the elden ring? How can it be mended if he gets killed? I'm definitely missing something.
I think it all depends on how you think about the lore of the game. If you take it too literal, mental road blocks are around every corner. The game tells us the Elden Beast becomes the Elden Ring, but we kill the Elden Beast and yet the Elden Ring remains. IMO, if you view the game from the lens of a literal/ historical standpoint, you can't do it. I take everything in game to be metaphors for real-life things. If the Elden Beast is the concept of Order and Marika is the vessel for the Elden Ring, what we are really killing is Marika's Order/ current ideology. As soon as we kill the Elden Beast, we are freeing the world form the current ideology and starting a new one. The mended Elden Ring, IMO, will be reflected in a new version of the Elden Beast. It's like the Old Testament vs the New Testament; something must die for something new to be born.
@@CenteredTarnished I'm not sure UA-cam accepts links in the comments but you can find it on ZioStorm's latest video released today. That figure's hunched over pose is very intentional, in my opinion. It's also all over Elden Ring Reddit.
Wait, where does it explicitly say that the greater will is not an outer god? Afaik it sent its vassal (elden beast) from outer space, so does that not make it an outer god as well?
I don't believe that either, I believe it's more a matter of interpretation of what he said, for me the greater Will may not now by definition be an "outer" god, but I believe it is from the same class of beings and functions in the same way
It’s nearly impossible to prove a negative but there are many mentions of “outer gods” and the Greater Will is not mentioned with them. So for that reason, I assume it’s not or I would think the game would mention it.
@@CenteredTarnished the dark Moon probably is too, as is the fell god, they are also not mentioned as such but it is extremely likely that they are, I don't believe that the lack of this mention really seems to indicate otherwise, and also even what it seems like the other outer gods seem to behave in the same way as the greater will, they also seem completely capable of replacing the role of the greater will, perhaps it really is not an "outer" god but to me it seems to be part of at least the same category of deities
@davisiotta489 The Greater Will just seems so much more powerful in comparison to the confirmed outer gods. Though, I suppose you could counter with the frenzy flame, that's the only other being that seems to approach The GW, to my understanding. Nonetheless, it is interesting that the GW (again, to my understanding) interacted with the crucible, while the confirmed outer gods use demigods and other mortals as a proxy, it's worth noting but it may well just be a coincidence.
@@hellogoodbye3786 Considering everything it would be strange if the greater will was NOT the most powerful outer god, if we look at the motives of the outer gods practically all of them are competing for influence in the lands between and the greater will seems to be the one who won the majority, it is she who imposes her order in the world through the elden ring, she is the one who governs the lands between through a vessel god, she is the one who maintains the domain of people's faith through the erdtree, unlike the other outer gods who have their influence removed, the greater will had influence over every aspect of people's lives, she may not even be more powerful but in fact she just has (at least had) many more ways of exerting that power than the others, the envoy of the frenzied flame is sealed beneath Lyendell , the fell god had all the fire giants who worshiped him killed and his flame is sealed/extinguished and needs to be rekindled by the player, and although we don't know much about the formless mother, she also doesn't seem to have had many means of influence until Mogh
so... assuming this interpretation is correct, and a lot suggests that it is... you could say the entire game is basically happening inside one person's fractured mind which is in the process of healing itself. That is incredible.
I dont quite agree with your analysis of goldmask being the refusal to change given your earlier statements that the elden ring represents marika's core psyche/personality. What would that make ranni's ending who wants to put it in a place no one can reach, particularly those of the outer gods (which many people include the greater will in)? Withdrawal/escape from society and her problems? Living in a delusion? A complete submission to the id?
and does it say that the GW comes from the one great? Isn't the GW the entity that divided the one great? and if so, wouldn't that make GW outside of the ine great to begin with?
@CenteredTarnished i doesn't say that GW divided OG but heytta says something along the lines of "the OG was divided and fractured but the GW did a mistake" giving the impression that GW was the one dividing and continuing to do so was a mistake as it brought about suffering and misfortune here's the line: "All that there is came from the One Great. Then came fractures, and births, and souls. But the Greater Will made a mistake. Torment, despair, affliction" it definitely has enough gabs to explain it however you want but personally, i thought the GW was the one doing the dividing, otherwise who would? why would it divide itself? it's also consistent with GW being the concept of order, because what is order other than putting lines in the sand to rule out what is and isn't, to categorize, to order things about, to "divide"
Try this on for size, Marika was originally a beast man.(or woman) the reason she has a shadow and Ranni has a shadow is the shriven remnants of her beastial self. She originally was the god of the dragon age, and she locked her first Elden Lord in time as she called down the meteor of the Elden Beast. Placidusax awaits her return endlessly because she never left. She became someone new. This created the larval tears. She attempted to ascend again becoming Radagon with said tear. Every empyrean being an attempt by Marika to evolve again. The reason her younger empyrean children have no shadow: they have no history of beast men. This also opens them up to curses of the outer gods. With no balance, chaos allows in something else. She has inadvertently created something new. Anyways. A lot more thought could be put into this.
Point is there is no cold without the warm light without the darkness,Hyetta is wrong because there is no life otherwise and a tantrum to want to destroy life when others find it quite simple and acceptable is utterly selfish.Marika chose this life and when hers falls apart she ruins everyone else's to obtain a life that is impossible to maintain in a childish endeavor. She was being irresponsible and did not think out the situation.And even seems to have Usurped it from herself or the Gloam eyed queen.
Honestly It makes me sick that such great meanings in such creations as games and some movies, tv shows etc. are locked behind so much layers of metaphors. It's beautiful and masterful but... eh, every time it makes me think that those genius minds either lasy or skilless to deliver their complex thoughts to public clearly. Or Maybe I'm lazy and skilless 😂
You were doing decently until 15:30 one could accept the slight mistakes in your interpretation of the lore up until that point. The Elden Ring did not come after the crucible it existed well before it, from the beginning in fact as Placidusax was Elden Lord at one point, way before Marika was a God, meaning the Elden Ring had a different vassal God at that time, the God Placidusax is waiting for in the storms beyond time. Ah man.. interesting perspective, misinformed though.
@@CenteredTarnished I understand your position, it is interesting and I agree with some aspects of it, I simply said you are mistaken about the Lore. As a quick look at Pacidusax's remembrance would show, he was Elden Lord at the age before the Erd Tree. Even if you successfully make the argument that I am indeed misunderstanding your position, you would still be mistaken about the lore as understanding your position isn't all that relevant to whether or not you are mistaken.
@@reasonablechristianity I could definitely be mistaken, but to be fair - so could you. Marika - the unfractured- could be the God Placi is waiting to return. The entire game is about reuniting the opposites and making things whole in the world. If Marika is “eternal” then she has to be that God. Marika is the only person associated with the ER, she is eternal, and a statue of a little girl surrounded by wolves with the emergence of the ER/ different version all point to Marika being that same God. More than likely just fractured from her shadow which is the whole point of the DLC, to mend that part of her. IMO of course
@@CenteredTarnished I'm not saying you are mistaken about your theory it's pretty out there and interesting. Whether you are mistaken about it or not, I do not know. And neither do you seeing as how the DLC isn't out yet. I said you are mistaken about the Lore, as Marika came way later than the Dragons, now you may claim she was a Dragon at some point but that'd be completely unsupported. Yet in Placidusax's remembrance it clearly states he was Elden Lord before the Age of The Erd Tree, you can look this up, I certainly am not mistaken about that. If Marika is the God Placidusax is waiting for, why would he be waiting for her return when she was already there in the first place. Makes no sense.
@@reasonablechristianity oh I know that about Placi’s remembrance. I am speculating that Marika is the One Great. Meaning she has a version of herself that is pre-fracturing. A whole, united, and balanced God. That is the version, I theorize, that Placi is waiting to return. Sure, she is still in the world but she is not her true, authentic self. She is fractured, broken and repressing many parts of herself. Once those all are healed ( I suspect by Miquella’s quest) the true Goddess that is Marika the unfractured will return. Again, all speculation but is what I am seeing with the story being told.
I think you place too much emphasis on the idea that elden ring is a mirrored reflection of psychology. There are certainly elements of it to be sure, but you are also quick to ignore details that contradict your conclusions from items and lore flatly stated within lore. While FromSoft doesn't always tell the whole story with it's descriptions, neither do they lie unless specifically from a character's dialog, ie the character is lieing to you the player.
Your take on the greater will as being an embodiment of human evolution and time seems a bit out of place. You said beastmen lack consciences and are hence seperated from the greater will. In christianity, those who are seperate from God regress into their animalistic selves. Indulging in lifestyles best portrayed as animalistic. Some people are even rejected by God and upto their debased urges. Also better never compare the Holy Spirit to anything, better not take any chances with blasphemy
I can't believe this vid has so little views. This actually pieces together the metaphorical story of the game so coherently....wow. great job :)
Thank you!
Ahhh, it makes sense to me now. The statue of the young Marika with the toothless wolves must be representing how order tamed chaos. The little girl is serenely sitting in the middle of a pack of beasts who have no bite left.
I just found your channel tonight and man I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT! I'm an absolute freaking nerd about the things I enjoy & your channel 100% scratches that itch!! So good!!
Thanks for the support!
@@CenteredTarnished Thanks for the fantastic nerd content!
Who would have thought that game that for some reason that i love so much and hate at time. Game that created moments of real happiness overcoming obstacles in manner of bosses and being source of frustration when i fell down into crevice or got slain by something very easy. Now thanks to your videos @CenteredTarnished i've discovered why this game resonates with me on so many subconscious levels. It was never how world looked, or what monsters inhabited it. It was always about this inner journey of self development.
Game hat helped me understand true definition of symbolism of trinity on all possible levels. On macro and micro scale. I that i aspire to be (godhood, unity, oneness). I the present (human, split, duality). I the dark shadow (corruption, darkness, demons). All states at once (future/present/past) merged by greater will to evolve that rough soul into pristine form. Time we experience is process of constant change. Change that can make one soul to progress or regress. Only higher self that overcomes mind can push that change in the right direction... If more of us understood this process we could speed it up collectively without so much traumas we have to go through to force that change on societal level.
So all that will come soon that will affect all of us. Division, economic collapse no matter how harsh it will treat us it will make us better on the level that always mattered the most - spiritual.
I think you are on the money about elden ring.
IMO the thematic implications of the game are far more important than the placement of every little art asset or cut dialogue when it comes to understanding the story.
Hope this channel gains some more traction because this game is a work of genius and maybe you can help the gamers see the forest and not just the um… erd… trees
Great work keep it up
I'm currently doing an in depth exploration into the metaphysics of Elden Ring and you've alluded to certain things in my script. I really liked the interesting dynamic you have posed with the three body problem reflecting the nature of chaos.
In the movie 'The Platform', most of the movie revolves around 2 people in a single room. Regardless of how hard to deal with a person might be, it is manageable. But when the platform has moved and now multiple people was taken into the equation, it became infinitely more complex and unpredictable.
Here is a different proposition. 3 fingers as 3D opposing the 2 fingers' 2d Worldview. By which I mean the frenzy flame having a dimensional increase over the Greater will. Since the greater will operates on the principle of duality and has a life reinforcing bias with Marika's order, frenzy flame is proposing to go 'beyond' this dualistic worldview and towards the non dual via non existence.
However within this analogy I think it would be more fitting if the three fingers were actually 'one finger' to symbolize the non duality Frenzy flame yearns for. Your 3 body analogy for chaos is also very strong and thematic.
I love your videos and ideas, any chance we could get a colab with Centered Tarnished and try to unify the ideas of Metaphysics and Jung psychology? These concepts are so difficult to understand, I swear I'm having to watch your and CT's videos 3 or 4 times to fully grasp the ideas.
I've just discovered your channel and been watching your videos non-stop. It's 9am, I haven't gone to bed yet. Welp.
Instant subscribe! Love your theory - it further shows how great pieces of art can be interpreted in so many compelling ways. Just layers after layers after layers.
Lots of love and keep it up!
Really like how you tie in real-world psychology and philosophy. Makes sense that any lore would be influenced by that.
I just noticed that in the cutscene for the Elden Beast coming out of Radagon it really focuses on its hand it has five fingers.
With this vid theorizing Marika being present from the very beginning as the first elden ring age that implies she was Lord Placidusax's fled god, which could make sense, Marika left him and never came back. Ooooohhhhhh....
Bruh, first time seeing one of your vids, instant subscribe
You do a really dang good job of expressing your thoughts in a way this viewer can grasp.
LOVED the discussion and psychological take on the lore. It's very unique (and, again, very well presented)
~a random canadian new subscriber dude
I came and subbed from the long video you did with crunchy and I'm going to get caught up on your content but I'm really appreciative of your views on elden ring
I got more into the lore from your theories. I 100% agree with the Carl Jung aspects.
I also think there are subjects, theories and philosphies etc involved in the game that Jung showed an interest in. Mainly Hermeticism.
The more I look the more I see paralells. A deck of Hermetic Tarot cards were made by a man named Godfrey haha, maybe a nod to him.
"Elden John" I believe is holding what would be the Emerald Tablets. "As above, so below".
Looking into all these things and what you've said with the Jungian psychology I have a theory on the DLC that basically Marika (whether intentional or not I can't guess) has gone against the whole order of harmony. I believe that the Shaodow has a royal who is connected to Marika and there is a mutual responsibility on each side of the tree. I think maybe in cycles the Lands Between and the Shadow are supposed the share knowledge, life and abundance. I think in the same way as the snake eating itself, both lands are supposed to sustain each other and in turn sustain themselves. I think the agreement / order has been broken and as I said, it might not be as clear as Marika being greedy and taking her share and the shadow lands too. I think the theory of the tree of life and the tree of knowledge is they're supposed to pass each on and share for there to be harmony.
There does seem to be lots of connections to alchemy, I'd say look into the alchemical wedding.
Thanks! If you look at my Understanding the Shadow of the Erdtree video, I draw a ton of parallels to alchemy that might interest you.
I love your videos, I've watched them all, but I will definitely watch them again.
I like the thought that there is inspiration drawn from Tarot cards too, as Jung spoke about that too. The interesting thing is that every card has a reverse / a "shadow". The most important card is the Fool, and it shows a man stepping onto a cliff edge about to fall off in the beginning that implies going on a journey and going into the unknown. That's the first thing we do when at the Chapel of Anticipation
Also androgeny is quite big in Hermeticism as it seems to be in Elden Ring
So my final overall thoughts.
My theory is that Miquella's plan is to fuse with Messmer to become a god of the Shadow plane (the soul realm). In Alchemy and Hermeticism it's worth looking into the Alchemical Wedding.
Miquella and Messmer are 2 sides of the same coin. Like Marika and Radagon. I believe Marika and Radagon were once separate and she ascended her qualities that made her the other half of Radagon. I believe they fused in the same principal of the Alchemical Wedding.
I think each Empyrean has a plane they must belong on. There are 3 general planes of exiatence: the physical, the astral / mind, and the soul.
I believe each Empyrean aligns wirh this;
Malenia being the physical plane where she is a swordswoman who's main deal is decay, rot and rebirth.
Ranni being the Astral / mind / psychic.
And Miquella being of the soul.
Based on this I believe the butterflies represent each Empyrean.
Since we're on the Lands Between I believe we are on the Astral (Ranni's) plane. I think Miquella knew this and that's why he never chose to fight Ranni because he knew it was her plane to begin with.
The Astral plane is the 2nd stage in the cycle: Physical > Astral > Soul, so it would make sense it would be the Lands Between.
I think Ranni and Miquella (maybe Malenia too) all conspired in the Night of the black knives.
My theory beforehand is that Marika made it impossible for the Empyreans to leave to their respective planes because she didn't want to lose any children and broke the cycle.
I believe across the other planes there will be respective "other half" Empyreans for both Ranni and Malenia too.
- I have a dew more ideas that seem to go with these theories and make sense.
Between looking at Jungian Psychology, Hermeticism, Alcehmy, Tarot, Kyballah and the Rosicrucians, there is some real similarities.
Damn, another fucking Banger. i love how you disect the "deep" lore of the game, helps me a ton in my personal work (creative process etc...). Thanks a lot!
2:50 This seems like a slight distinction, but the GW doesn't care about order. It was cool with the chaos of the crucible. In fact, it may not "care" about anything and is simply a natural force of the world that derives from the runes of the inhabitants of the Lands. However, that slight distinction is actually the fundamental misunderstanding that ruined the Golden Order.
6:00 We actually don't need the arrival of the Elden Beast to spark order from chaos. That is a natural phenomenon that arises from chaos itself.
13:30 The Elden Ring can exist because it has a vessel to wield it, whereas the Elden Beast is the Greater Will forming a body of pure runes without a suitable vessel. I don't think we're travelling in time within the Erdtree, but I think we should note the similarities to the evergaols which seem to be alternate dimensions.
The root the problem? I think that's very deliberately left open to interpretation, so I'll just say that fear of change is one of humanity's most heinous traits.
16:30 Yes, I totally agree that the arrival of the Greater Will is essentially one and the same as the advent of consciousness (or perhaps just sentience, since animals can also generate runes). I don't see it necessarily as the Elden Beast bringing order, but rather being drawn to it because of the collective willpower involved in order's creation.
19:00 I think that's a pretty good thematic analysis of the 3 wolves statue. Pretty sure we're gonna get a more tangible connection once we learn more about Marika's origins and the crucible in Shadow of the Erdtree.
31:00 Since the Greater Will is the embodiment of sentience, it follows that a dearth of sound minds in the Lands would cause it to fade away. And that is what we have after an extended time in which everyone withers in unending life and loses purpose and meaning.
Your videos are so good bro. Love it man. I e not been on a whole lot but I've been checking your stuff out. 😊 I'm so exited for the dlc bro
CenT! The hunt for causality's cause is my irl main quest so this video hits me double-trouble.
To see the evolution or development of sentient consciousness as what brought order and structure into chaos is something i struggle with for the following reason. i believe there is symmetry in chaos but i don't believe cosmic harmony predisposes of a binary, linear structure or order (patterns, duality). Duality is of chaos but not what makes harmony a symphony by "it"self.
Hence :) my mortal query knot is duality requires some-thing relative to the concept in order (badumtsss) to establish itself. however, i like your suggestion (if i understood u correctly) of Elden Beast being the cause of what caused the beginning of rupture in the rumble that was "chaotic". but not the birth of sentience! we're not down to the root of the Tree. yet.
i have to go to work (my justice for Marika campaign doesn't pay my tarnished bills yet) so i will be sure to revisit this comment and further amend, it's SUCH a good vid.
love your takes and while i am nowhere near being a Jungenineer like yourself, am a hintuitive little snek wishing to short-circuit the gaps Miyazaki intentionally left wide open for us - reminiscent of his youth when he had lack of language and started to narrate his stories using the powerful magic of wake dreaming 💜🐉🚬
What a comment!
Yes, it seems that prior to the Elden Beast, there was no Order in the universe OR Marika at all. Everything prior to the EB must have been completely chaotic and disorderly since the very concept of Order was not even introduced yet.
I do think the EB was just the introduction of Order and consciousness to the world- like match that starts a fire. It seems that what that order evolves in to is up the the “god” of that world.
the b*m*i (Body, Mind and Intellect) gymnastics i am purrrforming are impspired by Chalmer's philosophical take on The Hard Problem Of Consciousness as well as Prof. Margaret F. Washburn's "The Animal Mind", are you familiar with the latter, @CenteredTarnished ? i forgot to ask you earlier. oversimplified: what if the difference (in consciousness) is one of degree, not of kind.
Note that i believe any of my vetos on single treads you weave are still possible to integrate into your take because where you intrigued me most is in describing the intricacies of the Elden Beast with the different 3D, worldly and metaphysical elements it may represent. "Order" to me, and that's the thing, gives me strong "Control, Power, Dominance" resonance and not intelligent structure as in an organic, connected and attuned with environment flow grow. more manipulation, lies and deception.
like the little girl with the wolves praying gives me GRRM "warging" with them vibes. what if on the surface we have a his-storical conflict with spiritual colonization for spice, who perceived local rites and customs in a chaotic and primitive way. Remember that pSaxx had sum heads chopped off with II remaining. i differ between a NuMen Marika who lived a long time ago and a Myth that became it's own RingThing but is not related, masqueraded, that mystical power got harnessed and instrumentalized against Her will.
For me the meteor started the devolution of men separating from (Mother) nature, the Great Forgetting of Tree - who knows that meteor loaded with Alien DNA might've even crashed into the OG tree, because that 14:10 position gives me very "Golden Seed spreading time". if Culture dictates what behaviour is appropriate then Progress and Regress go hand-in-hand too. i try to discern between what i think is true and what i think is fair and just but i am not immune to propaganda!
which is why i love your psychology takes on interpreting what's presented and i am confronted with my own Lackanian Life Strive, both in-game and AFK. these my comments be way too long, maybe i will join y'all on discord or sum 😹 i want to believe! #justiceformarika
If great runes come in pairs of opposites, as shown at 12:36, what do you think Miquella's and Ranni's great runes represent and what their opposite would be?
Just in case, the rune of the unborn was probably Messmer's rune if your theory of Marika losing a child and him being said child is correct and the dlc trailer already confirmed what Miquella's rune looks Iike.
I know it’s not the consensus, but I’ve always seen Ranni’s ending as “giving up” or suicide. Very nihilistic in nature. Basically being so broken and traumatized that the only way to escape the pain is to end everything.
Miquella seems to be the opposite of that. Striving the help others escape the clutches of Outer Gods (I believe those to be mental illnesses) and healing them through, well essentially, therapy. Just like how a therapist will guide one through a trauma and help them heal, I believe Miquella is the same. Guiding Marika back to the heart of her trauma (presumably Messmer) and assisting in healing it. I think the ending of the DLC trailer tells us Marika was successful in this quest.
Time will tell!
isn’t it the Flame of Frenzy’s ethos and ending which is more in line with what you describe as Ranni’s ending? Ranni’s ending is about freeing the world from the meddling of gods, for better or worse. Fear and doubt and darkness of the unknown, no longer pawns to be used by the gods, but rather masters of our own fates. Scary, yes, but also hopeful and exciting. That is what it is to be an individual, it gives meaning to the connections we make. As opposed to going through the motions of a god’s plan, or the non-existence of chaos; the wholeness without individual thought or experience.
I think it depends on how you interpret wholeness. To me, you need both order and chaos to be a true individual and thus authentic and whole. The FF ending seems to be the scales tipping in the opposite direction. A complete lack of order and take over of chaos- almost the opposite of Goldmasks. Ranni’s ending seems to lack any of those elements. No order or chaos= no order or evolution.
The dark moon is cold and dark, her journey is about leaving this world for good and something she has to do alone. One still has to live and operate within society and its rules. Being a complete individual is about moving society forward while still honoring your authentic self.
To me, unfortunately to completely remove one’s self from the laws and rules of society is to remove yourself from that world.
Again, just my interpretation and it does depend on how you view the Greater Will and “gods” of Elden Ring. Because I view the GW as progression or evolution, Ranni stopping/killing that is the end of those things. Not a regression to chaos like in the FF ending, but rather a complete ending to it.
A bit rambly but hopefully I’m making sense. Ranni seems to be ending something completely. No order. No chaos. Just dark nothingness
Not to worry, I follow you!
I don’t disagree with your analysis, but with your initial interpretation of Ranni’s ending and likewise the FoF.
I don’t think Ranni’s ending is representative of what you describe. FF is despair, the complete lack of hope, the inability to go on living because living is pain. It is madness that yearns for oblivion. This to me screams suicide, not Ranni’s ending.
Ranni’s ending speaks of loneliness, true, but I think that is the loneliness that is born from individuality, separation from the mother etc. In her ending she isn’t alone, she takes her eternal consort with her. And she is removing herself from the world, so that life may govern itself. Ranni’s compassion and integrity make her presence in the world a contradiction to her beliefs if she were to stay.
When I mentioned wholeness, it was to describe the lack of individual thought or ego, a singular formless non-existence . I didn’t mean the wholeness of a healthy adult psyche, or that of an enlightened being that has achieved oneness.
I like your position that we need a combination of order and chaos to be complete, it’s balance right? Yin and Yang. Viewing chaos through the lens of physics rather than psychology though, you could interpret it as being a state of high entropy or disorder, where there is no workable energy to maintain life, in other words the heat death of the universe. This I think is distinct from the crucible which was a state of low entropy. I don’t think FF can return the world back to this state, and even if it could, life would simply start over again.
I definitely rambled too much! I know we have differing takes, but it’s really only your interpretation of Ranni’s ending which I find contentious 😅
I believe that the great rune that Ranni set aside was her half of the death rune that was carved into her flesh, by definition it is literally a rune that she set aside, and Miquella's is obviously that of abundance contrasting with the of Malenia which is decadence, in the game's cut content we have several mentions that link Miquella with the concept of abundance
Outer God could mean outside of the Golden Order
if marika's inner world is symbolized with farum azula, then could the god of the dragonlord be her as well?
I’m interested in this question too. Either Marika was the GEQ or could she be the daughter of GEQ and Placidusax?
I think FA is Marika’s childhood being reflected in the story there. Going from operating completely on instincts and the unconscious matrix (childhood) to restraining those to fit in with society I.e. consciousness develops. This child-like state is what Jung refers to as the Self or our true authentic being aka our Inner God. The goal of Individuation is to return to that state of wholeness and authenticity. All that to say that, yes I do think it’s Marika (prior to splitting herself) that is the God Placi is waiting to return. It seems to me the story is about uniting the opposites and returning to that state of Inner God and authenticity - which I believe is what Mairka will be facing the the Shadow Lands
@@positivecontacts it would make sense, if Farum Azula is the inner world of Marika GEQ could very well be being represented in the initial formation of Marika's thoughts since she would be her mother
@@CenteredTarnished Placidusax’s Now Fled God being Marika running away from herself is a neat thought.
Radagon does seem to me to be an agent of Regression, bring things back together that were once separated.. in a potentially convoluted way, Rennala being an astronomer who seems to have intimate knowledge of the practices of the Eternal Cities which are ruled by numen and there is some potential that Marika once lived in a now Nameless Eternal City… There is a reunion them involved with the union of moon and tree. Trolls joined moon, bringing the giants back into the union as well.
Other stuff
Fantastic video;
My view with this logic applied:
Forum Azula represents the childhood of Marika on her unconscious, it's just memories, fallen apart, shows her grow until self conscious;
The elden beast falling are the culture of society crashing into her consciousness with order and spectators, if left unchecked, can control the whole self;
The elden ring its the way Marika uses the structures of society to shape the way she perceives the world
Marika its her feminine side, Radagon it's masculine
When she forged the elden ring, the tree is born as a system to link all levels of consciousness, but to create thar she needs also create the shadow, literally putting everything she can't present into society in there;
The age of plenty is literally the adolescence, abundance and the prime time of her age (her view of the world, the way she perceives it)
But it ends fast, and with adulthood, she needs to start to integrate her masculine side and embrace even more order (golden order fundsmentalism)
In a attempt to bring back the age of plenty, it doesn't work.
Then tragedy strikes, death was something Marika had removed from her order(she never conceived this idea so it's sealed)
But in the night of the black knifes, she know destined death, and her whole concept of reality starts to break
Marika is dealing with trauma, and her consciousness is break, she shatters all his conceptions
The tarnished is someone putting her mind together and building her shattered personality in place thus creating a new order (new world view) and allowing her to move on;
The shadow of the erdtree is a walk into her shadow (in a psychological term)
Malenia is the decay that happens once you're stuck in the same world view for too long
Miquella is her eternal child, powerfull, kind, tries to create a world view but fails (haligtree)
I think you might enjoy my other video's. We have very similar ideas!
Man i love your Videos
RIGHT?!?!?
Thank you!
What I wonder about the Greater Will is the distinct use of the word Great'er' and not just Great. I don't know if this is a artifact of translation, but if it is not it implies there are other wills in the world. I like to think that the greater will is supposed to be that which binds the lesser wills of the land between together. The lesser wills being the sentient inhabitants of the lands between. In order for these wills to cooperate productively they must agree on the conventions that will guide them, and this could be the greater will. An important thing to note is that the Elden Beast is 'said to have been sent by the greater will long ago'. This leaves room for the possibility that it is completely unrelated, and perhaps purely prescribed its position as a vassal, from the common belief that the greater will would deliver a power to enact its order.
Let us not forget the deep inspiration that Miyazaki Berserk.
**Berserk Spoilers ahead**
It is a theme in Berserk that the God of the Abyss is man-made,
The Idea of Evil[expl 1] is a primal entity residing in the Abyss. It is responsible for dictating the fate of humanity through its application of causality, acting on the species' collective unconscious will.
edit: In essence, I look at it in an inverse way when compared to you. I do not see the world as an expression or Marika, but of Marika as the expression of the worlds collective unconscious.
Thanks for new vid
Hope you liked it!
Some editing issues early on but otherwise great video
Thanks! Yeah, still working on my editing skills.
Ah, when you mentioned stagnation, it all came together... Absolutely amazing video, can't wait to hear more from you
the game doesn't say that Farum azula is before the elden ring, the prehistoric era of dragons was before the erdtree, not the elden ring, I also have doubts if the meteor that hit farum azula was really the Golden Star, there are many mentions of meteors around the game, it could for example be the meteor that brought Astel to the lands between, dragons also seem to be closely linked with gold and the greater will and they even have an appearance that resonates with that of the elden beast, it would be very strange that they were before the greater will and the elden beast,
I’m not sure why it would be strange that dragons would be before everything else. Nearly all other souls games have the same back story. Dragons and lack of order, then something happens that ignites the world.
It’s strange that you doubt the meteorite would be the Elden Beast aka the Elden Ring with all the evidence you provide yourself. The similar model, gold, etc. It seems everything points to one thing.
@@CenteredTarnished ancient dragons have golden aspects in their being, their wings have gold as well as their flesh as can be seen in placidusax, they also incorporate different aspects of the crucible but unlike how these characteristics manifest themselves in a disorganized way in the bodies of other creatures , dragons present these characteristics in an organized way, it would be strange the way these creatures are linked with gold if this was not linked to them since their creation, they seem to be literally made of gold as well as stone, if the elden beast was the meteor that hit farum azula it's strange that gold is so present in their culture if since then their city has been crumbling, I also think it's debatable whether the presence of uncivilized beastmen would actually be a setback and not the remnants of how the beastmen were , it's strange that after the assimilation of the beastmen, the culture of Farum Azula, the dragons would simply allow the continuity of a totally wild group of beastnen in their city when there are others who are not like that, like "yeah, leave the group totally unstable and not civilized beastmen unleashed on our city, what harm could they do? cut to the scene of one beastmen eating the corpse of another" I find it quite plausible that the presence of these other beastmen is due to them having been forced to strip away civilization and return to more primitive ways in order to survive since there is basically no food in Farum azula they are forced to cannibalize their own kind and be put on edge
It seems others, if they can manage 2 or more great runes can make their own elden ring, or world rules. The dragons had this, but with something to do with the meteor and fell god(I assume more of the fell god and sun realm will be explored in SotE) and Marika's war with the giants led to her assuming control of the ring, with its runes altered along with the world rules. The greater will might just want an order that can maintain order, it seems at some point the power shifts to Marika, though her elden lord is named the first, there could have been dragons already in control from the beginning, the dragon lord may have already had this title before written history. And along with this could have been an accord with the greater will, which would have would have witnessed the dragons defeat, they did not maintain order.
This makes it so an elden ring can exist before or after anyone, because anyone strong enough can change it. This would still make Godfrey the first elden lord of that version of the elden ring, while still having Placidusax a dragon lord of their ring, compaired to an elden lord of the new ring, and both at some point blessed with gold by the greater will. There are many meteor and smaller impacts pocketed around, but there is a really big one, bigger then all the others. Elden stars has a similarity in its placement of timeline based on its description, it is the most ancient of erdtree incantations, but the crucible incants are in the same list, and describe the erdtrees primal vital energies. The giant dead dragon in Leyndell could be a coincidence, but like the timeline described shows a transition of dragons with holy magic, to humans with holy magic. It does not prove it wasn't Astel, but it places the golden meteor rite around the state of transition.
As a souls player I always felt like the bell of awakening was missing, but it could be the hammer strikes on the elden ring are what awakened us, like an alarm the order is about to fail, but its like the removal of death broke the world's clock. Im also a huge fan of elderscrolls lore and it reminds me so much of something called a dragon break, which is too much to try to explain, but fun to watch videos of.
@@eldenringpvpenthusiast1710 the crucible is apparently Erdtree itself in a different state and time, probably not a tree exactly but still something of a similar nature that eventually became the erdtree, this could still make the elden star's incantations the oldest derivatives of the Erdtree since the crucible and the erdtree end up almost being synonymous in this case, the dragons have several characteristics of the crucible and are therefore probably responsible for the order of the Crucible that existed before the crucible became the Erdtree, I believe that the meteor that hit Farum Azula it could be an "the shattering" before the one Marika did, I find it interesting that the only race that has stone skin besides the ancient dragons are the onyx lords and if you also notice the stellar beasts like astel and other smaller ones that demonstrate an exterior of stone, could it be that dragons are also beasts that came from the sky in the name of the greater will? Isn't it strange that the elden star's incantation represents the arrival of the elden beast on a golden star but there are particles that separate from the main star? What would this represent? my only answers are either that this represents the arrival of the two fingers with the elden beast or that it represents the emergence of the dragon race when the elden beast arrived in the lands between
@@eldenringpvpenthusiast1710 I find it interesting to mention that Farum Azula's elden ring represents six additional runes to the current elden ring, but I believe that only two of these runes are true, the center Runes seem to be the same as the current one but the other runes do not complete circles as the other ones and you can even see that two of them start to turn into roots, I believe that these runes are actually the "root rune" that is also present in this ring, it is just imitating the shape of other runes, but I I believe that the two smaller ones on each side are true and that one of them is the Great rune of Rennala, the other I have no idea but it could be the rune of Ranni or Messmer that were not revealed (if Messmer has one) it would make sense that were not in the current elden ring since the rune of the unborn was given by Radagon to Rennala long before the Shattering and in the same way that Marika removed the rune of death from the elden ring, she did the same thing with this Great rune that seems represent rebirth, Marika completely changed the laws on life to benefit the erdtree by removing what were the world's original deaths and rebirths and replacing them with the erdtree
Brilliant! Brilliant! This explains so much! I don’t know why I never considered looking at Elden Ring from a psychological perspective.
I think the greater will is universal consciousness experiencing itself through the fractures.
And thats why the Frenzied Flame can melt spirits like Torrent, because when the Great One was "the god", Body and Spirit were the same thing, stardust, its like the Godhod of Marika made the one god MAD, splited into duality and Instability, thus the madness and desire to "restart the universe" and the desintegrator touch of yellow flame, big bang temperature.
Great video! I'm more and more hyped for the DLC due to your videos making me see the game from a new perspective.
Out of curiosity, will you ever do videos on other Fromsoft titles?
I would love to do Bloodborne once ER slows down - it’s probably my favorite FromSoft game.
imo the Elden beast is the "active" version of the "avatar of the greater will" and the Elden ring is the "passive" version of the avatar that the greater will switches between when needed. Clearly it was needed considering who and what we killed/did to get to that point.
Makes sense that would reflect the fingers. I've heard them being theorized as a passive and active rule because two fingers can grasp but three can.
"Who is responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ?" NOW that's a controversial question. 😏
I think Miquella and Messmer are supposed to represent the Lovers Tarot card as being Twin Flames. When you look at the image on the card it has 2 trees (the tree of knowledge which is abundant, and the tree of life which is dying). There are 2 people, each standing in front of a tree. The card has a serpent and flames on it, as well as a deity presiding over everything. The cards themselves have a reverse in meaning, a "shadow".
UPRIGHT: Love, harmony, relationships, values alignment, choices
REVERSED: Self-love, disharmony, imbalance, misalignment of values.
Maybe their unification will create some form of balance. There is also the idea of a fake Twin Flame, so maybe Miquella felt drawn to who he believed to be his Twin Flame - Messmer, and was gravely mistaken.
I believe the Elden Ring simply contained the Elden Beast as a power source. The Ring's structure constrained and bound the massive potential of the Beast just as social conditioning constrains the animalistic beast within us. Radagon as the vessel of the Ring represents the Ego, the structure of identity that constrains the Beastly Id . Once Radagon is destroyed, it represents the collpase of the Ego and the release of the primitive Id from control.
As an aside in this model, Marika is the Superego of the higher principles that instruct the Ego in their efforts to contain the Id. The failure of Marika to adhere to her own principles of Order led her to shatter the Ring, the manifestation of the laws that represent the manifestion of the Suoerego's principles on a practical level, and leave the lands in lawless chaos.
Cant wait for you to do a stream with Jack the Mimic and Kitetales
This might be my favorite theory out there for Marika. I’ve had the idea gnawing at me that there has to be some form of enlightenment as a god and that had an effect on the waking world but this is next level and makes so much sense. To be a living god is to be the vessel or reality itself or in this case order I guess. I am 1000 percent more excited for this DLC 😍🥹
I love it! Great video ❤
The problem with your statement about there being no Elden Ring during the age of the dragons is the fact that they had an Elden lord and god. Both of which predates Marika rule as god. How does that make sense with your theory? A lot of what you were saying up till that point was well thought out and made sense. Encase you don't believe me, I'd suggest reading Dragonlord Placidusax remembrance.
I might have not said that the best during the video. All I am saying is that before the Elden Ring, Elden Beast, Erdtree, etc was the Dragons and Beastmen. During their tenure it seems is when the Elden Ring emerges/ Elden Beast is sent. So both are kind of true. You have Dragons and Beastmen pre-ER and post-ER. One with a total lack of Order and one with the concept of Order introduced. That's kind of my whole argument for why we see the beastmen go from crawling on all fours, eating their fallen ken. To burying them in gold, establishing a religion etc.
It's just like all the other souls games where Dragons ruled before there was anything in the universe, but that doesnt mean they weren't involved after the emergence of the "conflict" of the game.
The Elden Beast became the Elden Ring.
How this works in my mind is that this critter gathered and bound previously existing Great Runes to itself and, being powerful as it already was, is able to transform into rune form.
Runes are, to my understanding , grace bound into magical effect or enchantments. Grace is made from, at least in part, souls. Thus, runes and Great Runes, may contain the will of whom ever produced them. Typically, it seems, making a rune consumes the soul and so the body dies. The Elden Beast does not actually become a Great Rune or the Elden Ring, it shape shifts to show off all the Great Runes it has control of. It is the master of all these powerful Wills, the Greater Will.
The Elden Beast, like all those of corrupt power, basically naps and laps up all the grace it can with as little effort as it can. To this end, it lends some power to a host who must carry out its will. Thus, Marika. As having multiple minds screaming inside your head can have a maddening effect, see the demigods with just one Great Rune, empyreans are the preferred host. Empyreans already have the multiple minds thing, they don’t go nuts with extra voices.
Anyways, so when the Elden Beast leaves Radagon and converts him into a sword… there’s no time manipulation going on. The beast is canceling its shape-shift. We kill the Elden Beast. The Elden Ring, the runes it had claimed and bound together, remains. We purge the Elden Beast, the Greater Will, from the Elden Ring and free the Great Runes bound to the ring from the influence of the beast.
With my theory of the Elden Beast being the Greater Will, Marika shattering the Elden Ring caused a massive wound to the beast. Bits of the ring, the wounded beast, were expelled as “golden seeds.” Radagon mended the ring with what was left and then raised his seal at the entrance to the Erdtree, locking Marika, himself, the Elden Ring, and the Greater Will(Elden Beast) within.
With the seal in place and the Erdtree severed from its roots, through which Fingers actually would commune with the Elden Beast, the Two Fingers lost both direct communication with the Greater Will and the option to use messengers.
Learning the details of the seal and that the barrier does not drop when we come to give Great Runes to the Elden Beast, the Roundtable Two Fingers realizes how totally out of the loop it is. So it begins the process of reconnecting its roots with the Erdtree. Desperation has pushed it passed the fear of deathblight which was the reason for the tree and fingers were cut from the roots to begin with.
Just started this game a few weeks ago and binge watching lore vids (along with raging at bosses). Have a question. So the elden beast is the elden ring? How can it be mended if he gets killed? I'm definitely missing something.
I think it all depends on how you think about the lore of the game. If you take it too literal, mental road blocks are around every corner. The game tells us the Elden Beast becomes the Elden Ring, but we kill the Elden Beast and yet the Elden Ring remains. IMO, if you view the game from the lens of a literal/ historical standpoint, you can't do it. I take everything in game to be metaphors for real-life things. If the Elden Beast is the concept of Order and Marika is the vessel for the Elden Ring, what we are really killing is Marika's Order/ current ideology. As soon as we kill the Elden Beast, we are freeing the world form the current ideology and starting a new one. The mended Elden Ring, IMO, will be reflected in a new version of the Elden Beast. It's like the Old Testament vs the New Testament; something must die for something new to be born.
Has anyone here ever played Final Fantasy 8? Ultimecia in her final form?? That’s what the Elden Beast cutscene reminds me of
Finally. Someone on UA-cam not calling The Greater Will an Outer God (besides Smoughtown)
Hey Centered, did you see the new enemy reveal? It looks like a demonic uterus! Once again, we have yet more birthing imagery.
No! Where can I find that?? Amazing stuff
@@CenteredTarnished I'm not sure if I can post links on UA-cam but you can see it on ZioStorm's latest video that he released today.
@@CenteredTarnished I'm not sure UA-cam accepts links in the comments but you can find it on ZioStorm's latest video released today. That figure's hunched over pose is very intentional, in my opinion. It's also all over Elden Ring Reddit.
Very cool can you explain dark souls 3 now
One thing I always wonder is, why are Marika and Radagon made of stone?
@@DHathaway78 perhaps they are just vessels like the stones from Rauh that need a spirit to animate them?
pushing that engagement. audio is questionable. thx 4 vid
I love this
Wait, where does it explicitly say that the greater will is not an outer god? Afaik it sent its vassal (elden beast) from outer space, so does that not make it an outer god as well?
I don't believe that either, I believe it's more a matter of interpretation of what he said, for me the greater Will may not now by definition be an "outer" god, but I believe it is from the same class of beings and functions in the same way
It’s nearly impossible to prove a negative but there are many mentions of “outer gods” and the Greater Will is not mentioned with them. So for that reason, I assume it’s not or I would think the game would mention it.
@@CenteredTarnished the dark Moon probably is too, as is the fell god, they are also not mentioned as such but it is extremely likely that they are, I don't believe that the lack of this mention really seems to indicate otherwise, and also even what it seems like the other outer gods seem to behave in the same way as the greater will, they also seem completely capable of replacing the role of the greater will, perhaps it really is not an "outer" god but to me it seems to be part of at least the same category of deities
@davisiotta489 The Greater Will just seems so much more powerful in comparison to the confirmed outer gods. Though, I suppose you could counter with the frenzy flame, that's the only other being that seems to approach The GW, to my understanding. Nonetheless, it is interesting that the GW (again, to my understanding) interacted with the crucible, while the confirmed outer gods use demigods and other mortals as a proxy, it's worth noting but it may well just be a coincidence.
@@hellogoodbye3786 Considering everything it would be strange if the greater will was NOT the most powerful outer god, if we look at the motives of the outer gods practically all of them are competing for influence in the lands between and the greater will seems to be the one who won the majority, it is she who imposes her order in the world through the elden ring, she is the one who governs the lands between through a vessel god, she is the one who maintains the domain of people's faith through the erdtree, unlike the other outer gods who have their influence removed, the greater will had influence over every aspect of people's lives, she may not even be more powerful but in fact she just has (at least had) many more ways of exerting that power than the others, the envoy of the frenzied flame is sealed beneath Lyendell , the fell god had all the fire giants who worshiped him killed and his flame is sealed/extinguished and needs to be rekindled by the player, and although we don't know much about the formless mother, she also doesn't seem to have had many means of influence until Mogh
6:41 so THA’S why the entire lands between LOOKS like a fetus
so... assuming this interpretation is correct, and a lot suggests that it is... you could say the entire game is basically happening inside one person's fractured mind which is in the process of healing itself. That is incredible.
Or at least, Marika, as god of Elden Ring, is reflecting her inner turmoil unto the world.
I dont quite agree with your analysis of goldmask being the refusal to change given your earlier statements that the elden ring represents marika's core psyche/personality.
What would that make ranni's ending who wants to put it in a place no one can reach, particularly those of the outer gods (which many people include the greater will in)?
Withdrawal/escape from society and her problems? Living in a delusion? A complete submission to the id?
So basically we are Marika’s therapist
I have a problem after watching your videos. Every other lore video now seems so surface-level and wrong compared to yours 😂 keep up the good work
Ikr its like this is the type of lore we have all been looking for.
The Frenzied Flame and Greater Will are clearly two feuding halves of one whole, much like Radagon and Marika.
Agreed. Order and chaos, 2 and 3, etc. There has to be a balance - which is clearly not happening.
Why is Marika the persona?
You're right Elden ring is a story of a mother,(two mothers) who lost a child then herself... and what her other children do in the wake of all of it
Mesmer is radagon and the gloam eyed queens son
do we actually know that the age if the dragons was before the elden ring? where is that stated 8n the game??
and does it say that the GW comes from the one great? Isn't the GW the entity that divided the one great? and if so, wouldn't that make GW outside of the ine great to begin with?
It's in the artbook interview. Miyazaki talks about what was before the erdtree and states that before the erdtree was the dragons and beastmen
@@aX0n777 does it say the GW divided the one great? Where does it say that?
@CenteredTarnished
i doesn't say that GW divided OG but heytta says something along the lines of "the OG was divided and fractured but the GW did a mistake" giving the impression that GW was the one dividing and continuing to do so was a mistake as it brought about suffering and misfortune
here's the line: "All that there is came from the One Great.
Then came fractures, and births, and souls.
But the Greater Will made a mistake.
Torment, despair, affliction"
it definitely has enough gabs to explain it however you want but personally, i thought the GW was the one doing the dividing, otherwise who would? why would it divide itself?
it's also consistent with GW being the concept of order, because what is order other than putting lines in the sand to rule out what is and isn't, to categorize, to order things about, to "divide"
@CenteredTarnished
oooh that's intriguing, i should check out that interview
Try this on for size, Marika was originally a beast man.(or woman) the reason she has a shadow and Ranni has a shadow is the shriven remnants of her beastial self. She originally was the god of the dragon age, and she locked her first Elden Lord in time as she called down the meteor of the Elden Beast. Placidusax awaits her return endlessly because she never left. She became someone new. This created the larval tears. She attempted to ascend again becoming Radagon with said tear. Every empyrean being an attempt by Marika to evolve again. The reason her younger empyrean children have no shadow: they have no history of beast men. This also opens them up to curses of the outer gods. With no balance, chaos allows in something else. She has inadvertently created something new. Anyways. A lot more thought could be put into this.
Point is there is no cold without the warm light without the darkness,Hyetta is wrong because there is no life otherwise and a tantrum to want to destroy life when others find it quite simple and acceptable is utterly selfish.Marika chose this life and when hers falls apart she ruins everyone else's to obtain a life that is impossible to maintain in a childish endeavor. She was being irresponsible and did not think out the situation.And even seems to have Usurped it from herself or the Gloam eyed queen.
This was an enjoyable watch, but it’s too much conjecture to be meaningful without lore to back things up more definitively.
Honestly It makes me sick that such great meanings in such creations as games and some movies, tv shows etc. are locked behind so much layers of metaphors. It's beautiful and masterful but... eh, every time it makes me think that those genius minds either lasy or skilless to deliver their complex thoughts to public clearly. Or Maybe I'm lazy and skilless 😂
You were doing decently until 15:30 one could accept the slight mistakes in your interpretation of the lore up until that point.
The Elden Ring did not come after the crucible it existed well before it, from the beginning in fact as Placidusax was Elden Lord at one point, way before Marika was a God, meaning the Elden Ring had a different vassal God at that time, the God Placidusax is waiting for in the storms beyond time.
Ah man.. interesting perspective, misinformed though.
I think you misunderstand my position
@@CenteredTarnished I understand your position, it is interesting and I agree with some aspects of it, I simply said you are mistaken about the Lore.
As a quick look at Pacidusax's remembrance would show, he was Elden Lord at the age before the Erd Tree.
Even if you successfully make the argument that I am indeed misunderstanding your position, you would still be mistaken about the lore as understanding your position isn't all that relevant to whether or not you are mistaken.
@@reasonablechristianity I could definitely be mistaken, but to be fair - so could you. Marika - the unfractured- could be the God Placi is waiting to return. The entire game is about reuniting the opposites and making things whole in the world. If Marika is “eternal” then she has to be that God. Marika is the only person associated with the ER, she is eternal, and a statue of a little girl surrounded by wolves with the emergence of the ER/ different version all point to Marika being that same God. More than likely just fractured from her shadow which is the whole point of the DLC, to mend that part of her. IMO of course
@@CenteredTarnished I'm not saying you are mistaken about your theory it's pretty out there and interesting. Whether you are mistaken about it or not, I do not know.
And neither do you seeing as how the DLC isn't out yet.
I said you are mistaken about the Lore, as Marika came way later than the Dragons, now you may claim she was a Dragon at some point but that'd be completely unsupported.
Yet in Placidusax's remembrance it clearly states he was Elden Lord before the Age of The Erd Tree, you can look this up, I certainly am not mistaken about that.
If Marika is the God Placidusax is waiting for, why would he be waiting for her return when she was already there in the first place. Makes no sense.
@@reasonablechristianity oh I know that about Placi’s remembrance. I am speculating that Marika is the One Great. Meaning she has a version of herself that is pre-fracturing. A whole, united, and balanced God. That is the version, I theorize, that Placi is waiting to return. Sure, she is still in the world but she is not her true, authentic self. She is fractured, broken and repressing many parts of herself. Once those all are healed ( I suspect by Miquella’s quest) the true Goddess that is Marika the unfractured will return. Again, all speculation but is what I am seeing with the story being told.
I think you place too much emphasis on the idea that elden ring is a mirrored reflection of psychology. There are certainly elements of it to be sure, but you are also quick to ignore details that contradict your conclusions from items and lore flatly stated within lore. While FromSoft doesn't always tell the whole story with it's descriptions, neither do they lie unless specifically from a character's dialog, ie the character is lieing to you the player.
Skert
True
Your take on the greater will as being an embodiment of human evolution and time seems a bit out of place.
You said beastmen lack consciences and are hence seperated from the greater will.
In christianity, those who are seperate from God regress into their animalistic selves. Indulging in lifestyles best portrayed as animalistic. Some people are even rejected by God and upto their debased urges.
Also better never compare the Holy Spirit to anything, better not take any chances with blasphemy