Wanted to leave this (knees tier list) here: ua-cam.com/video/yLayHLrO-s0/v-deo.html I think it helps to show that characters that have 3 or 4 really spam friendly moves end up being the most viable choices at a competitive level. Also, some characters with "rule breaking" moves have a slight advantage over others at this level of play. Cheers :)
Lul... I think this the most elaborate trolling I have seen in a while. I can hardly believe that the only two things you could take out of the video is "spam friendliness" and "rule breaking moves". But I guess that's the way to go if you want to stir some people up. Just keep polarising, it'll definitely push some more clicks on this vid. I think you and I know that this is your most clicked video so far. So congratulations. Maybe you'll be UA-cam "famous" at some point if you keep it up.
Be Tekknical I'm not trying to stir people up. Several people specifically requested this video of me. I tried my best to be respectful to both franchises and to support my claims with evidence. I won't be silent just because people don't want to hear the truth.
Oh wow you responded. I must say I didn't expect that. You obviously are stirring up people. I mean did you read all your comments or just the ones that agree with you? People most likely requested a well laid out explanation of your previous video and not your half baked analysis of deepness between two franchises (of which you compared a whole franchise with the current iteration of the other one I might add). I am NOT going to repeat what I said in my previous and very long and detailed comment you seem to have ignored. You rehash some claims people have made over time and mix and mash them together which is why your video in fact has certain valid points but out of all the wrong reasons behind them (again read my other comment for more details). A prime example of the way you're spreading half true information is that Aris video you posted here. The almost 20 minute long video has soooooo much more to say in detail and yet you throw it in here as if the two points you mentioned were the whole point of his explanation and OF COURSE these are the ones that can be easily intepreted as something negative about the game "as if" the whole game has the underlying tone of "spam friendliness" and "rule breaking" mechanics to it. Overall the way you argue is on a very cherrypicky basis just as much as you pay attention or disregard comments in your comment section. And I'd also like you to stop putting words into my mouth I have never said. I, and perhaps a lot of other people, TRY to point out your flaws in your video and why the way you reason is quite messy and at some points comepletely one sided (aside from the fact you are not very well aquainted with fighting game theory in general or at least you leave a heavy imperssion of it), however I have not tried to silence you yet your "opinion" is not some absolute form truth. In fact keep your flawed opinion and come along as some conceited fool who tries very hard to sound eloquent. That choice is yours. However I'd prefer to keep people away from such heavy half-thruths that are dished out as some inarguable absolutes which they just don't are. Hence me being so persistent and detailed with my comments since you tend to twist a lot of what people actually try to say, if you might have noticed. It's kinda sad how Virtua Fighter as become this mystical unicorn messiah of absolute balance and difficulty in fighting games when in hindsight it was "just" an excellent franchise that had an amazing game (VF4FT) but failed to deliver in a lot of other aspects like presentation, sound and character developement AND Sega's shitty marketing and primary focus on the japanese market, which is why it pretty much died after VF5FS. Nowadays we have those people who might have played VF4 on their PS2 (because we all know that VF5 was just "okay" and VF5FS was a "disgrace") think they are well sophisticated enough with the game to call it out to be such a "be-all and end-all" of fighting games when in truth there is no one really around aside from some few still known players like Fuudo to support these claims IF he would agree since, you know, Fuudo plays this "garbage" called Street Fighter nowadays. All we hear is "yeah, I remember it being like that" and we should all know how our memories can be deceiving. But let's just "believe" in it being so and take things for granted for no reason.... Or so the priests in church wish it'd be that way, if you catch my drift..
Be Tekknical Well I apologize for not responding to your earlier comment. As I've told others the UA-cam notifications are fairly sporadic and I sometimes miss people's comments all together. There are hundreds of comments on this video and I can't reasonably spend my time responding to each and every one of them, or search for a comment that I may have missed. Sorry you didn't like the video. As I said I did my best, some people are mad, some aren't, I can't control that. Just trying to tell it like it is.
Dude I don't even play Virtua Fighter and I know this guy has his shit together when it comes to putting together an argument. None of this is to say that Tekken isn't deep enough - it clearly is, each game in the series has a healthy competitive scene that goes on for years. Instead, it's similar to the argument that Boxing isn't as complex as MMA because with the latter you have a greater abundance of combinatorial techniques, disciplines and even limbs to choose from, whereas Boxing is more limited. None of that has stopped Boxing from being an interesting sport to watch, catering to a huge variety of skill levels, it simply means that you can do more with a bigger toolset.
Jonathan Cifuentes not at all. That's like saying Capcom lost the rights to Akuma because he's in Tekken 7. Guest appearances are quite common in fighting games.
Virtua Fighter is indeed the deeper game mechanically and I think that is part of what made it the less popular between the two games. Tekken was more accessible and easier for newcomers unlike Virtua Fighter which takes a lot more practice and tact to play it competently. Another reason why Tekken stood out more was because the characters had more personality. As neat as the Virtua Fighter character designs go, their personalities don't stand out at all due to lack of story. I think that if Virtua Fighter gets a 6th game and they flesh out the characters more, it could potentially drum up some new blood and interest. All in all, I like both games :)
Decadent Gamer You made game great points. There actually is a decent story in VF but it's not found in the actual games. I made a VF lore video series that you might want to check out if you're interested.
Yeah I vaguely remember the plot about the game, especially after watching the anime series where it was enough to convince me there is a story but unfortunately they don't really show any cutscenes depicting it in the game. I have Virtua Fighter 5 and while it was fun, no arcade endings really hurt the experience for me lol I'll check out the lore video. :)
I mean Tekken characters would have the personality as Harada was smart to base some of them from pop culture and western movies. Even DOA besides its fan service has IMO the best Bruce Lee video game impersonator in Jann Lee. Which also shows the GULF of appeal from an old man drunken fist fighter in Shun Di to arguably one of Tekken's favorite gimmicky drunken fist fighter who is impersonating Jackie Chan from Drunken Master. Which does for VF as they also had fresh ideas for fighting styles to work in their system.
True but after Tekken 7, I definitely feel the story for the Mishima family is stupid, pointless, and the story mode for Tekken 7 was poorly executed lol But yeah, in the beginning Harada was smart to try to have some of the characters be based from pop culture and western influence .
The thing is Tekken has always had a stronger character design and the moves carry way more impact. That being said I really dig how pure the fighting is in Virtua Fighter.
I disagree with that...I feel like a lot of Tekken characters tend to have seemingly similar appearances and playstyles from a layman's perspective. I'm not super familiar with VF, but from what I've seen, its roster is a lot more diverse in terms of playstyle and aesthetic. Character design doesn't really determine popularity anyway though; SNK's characters in KOF, Fatal Fury, etc. were a lot more unique than Capcom's characters in Street Fighter, yet SF is vastly more popular than any SNK game. Same goes for Guilty Gear characters (although many people probably found GG characters very obscure-looking or ridiculous). Also, whether or not "moves carry impact" is a purely aesthetic thing; if a new, well developed Virtua Fighter game were to come out for the modern console generation, the moves would definitely look cleaner and better than those from VF5.
The Victator Are you talking about quality or popularity? You mentioned how Street Fighter is more popular than Tekken and Guilty Gear, but I personally think that those games have much more to offer.
Is that why half the cast are repetitive versions of each other? No one in virtua fighter has this same issue, even mirror matches will show players use the same character differently. In Tekken, everyone spams the same moves, leaving half the move list unused, that's not a problem in VF.
You can tell from the comments that people are so biased to what they only know they dont even bother to finish the video. I have never played a virtua game in my life but just seeing the tutorial and the footage here blows my mind. DOA blew my mind when I first tried it and what I just saw from VF was more insane. Learn to be open minded guys and that the world is a big place. I enjoy tekken and have played and followed its competetive scene for close to 4 years now. But I can say for certain you will never have more than 5 S tier or truly viable characters at a time in the highest level of play.
@@AnggaNegara Noob, listen. Kof > blaz blue > guilty gear > samurai showdown 4 > last blade 2 > virtua fighter 5 > art of fighting 3 > street fighter 3rd strike > street fighter IV > ..... DOA > Soul Caliber > a garbage game I heard discussed here named Tekken. Although I play it if there are no other choices around or have no decent competitors in the games I mentioned.
Know I am late to the party, but love Virtua Fighter. I remember watching a kid play it in the arcade and he literally told me "keep your quarter. My dad designed the game." He subsequently perfected every opponent including the final boss Dural with Akira. He then said to me. "Akira is the best character but almost no one will master him."
I do not care for VF at all. Don't like it, don't play it unless friends want to play it at couch fighting sessions, but I do hope VF6 comes out so all the fans can enjoy it!
Perhaps they Should've added a Guest character from Virtua Fighter in Tekken. Both franchises would've benefited from this and Virtua Fighter is definitely in need of a resurgence. Virtua Fighter is definitely a game that is under appreciated and under played and thanks for posting this video reminding people the significance of Virtua Fighter.
They just make a game similar to how KOF brings fighters from different games together They should pick like 5-7 characters from VF, Tekken, and DOA and make a game I’d certainly be enticed to jump back into fighting games again
As somebody who played tekken before Virtua Fighter, I can see why Virtua Fighter is a very important part of the fighting game genre as a whole (since it’s THE GAME who gave birth to 3D fighting games). Too bad it became overshadowed by other popular fighting games like Street fighter and Tekken itself. I played the first Virtua fighter on an 32X emulator and it is super fun and it is doesn’t rely on button mashing. I really like both VF and Tekken!
That highlights how mediocrity is lauded by the mainstream, Tekken is shallow by comparison. I mean, look at how many people "love" Village and it's bloody terrible.
@@Grandmastergav86 I don't understand why people like you need to put down other things to justify liking something more obscure, Virtua Fighter is amazingly complex and well made through and through just like Tekken is, Tekken just focused more on character and themes for its appeal while Virtua Fighter focused on mechanical complexity on its end. Both can be enjoyed and mastered just as well as the other with plenty of variety and replay value, but apparently it's mediocre because some dumb casuals online prefer it to a game they probably didn't even play.
Despite being a big Tekken fan, I love the points on both this video, and its brilliant predecessor. It's nice to finally have someone who can love one franchise while respecting and appreciating its competition. Kudos to you, man.
It's honestly a crime that virtua fighter is so underated even though it's done so much for 3d fighting game. It also has such a complex yet rewarding to learn fighting mechanic.
One mechanic that I like in VF is the attack that does more damage wins (when hit at the same time). This differs from Tekken where frames only matter (only faster attack wins). It does make sense because a jab will not beat a haymaker, if hit at the same time. So this adds another layer of depth.
This exist in Tekken as well. It's to a different degree though. If say, I threw out a faster move (jab or 1) and my opponent threw out a slower counter hit launcher (back 1 ) and they trade, then I would get counter hit launched, my opponent recovers from my jab, finally I get combed. Faster move, but wrong timing makes it the wrong option.
@Mihail Milev no, it's a double hit scenario where one player gets launched while the other one gets just a jab to the face. In this case the latter can go on with the combo as they quickly recover from being hit by the jab while the other player is still mid air (Btw they'll probably have to adjust and do a weaker combo since they've lost time recovering from the hit)
@Mihail Milev more like both hit at the same time. In tekken almost all jabs save for jack and the bears are 10 frames, but let's say the opponent had a +4 frame advantage and gets hit with kazuya's down forward 2 which is a counter hit tool made to launch your opponent with a decent stun. They'll both connect due to the frame data. Though the spacing matters too obviously as jabs are typically safe but if it whiffs on a Mishima player if it's intermediate play it'll most likely be countered with an ewgf juggle. And other times evasive moves will work as well though not everyone has a move that will side step for you and hit but it's mostly useful to characters who are weaker if they get sidestepped to a certain side as tracking moves are more prevalent in 7 than in earlier games. Though I wouldn't say character mash ups really matter since the 4.0 patch fixed most dlc characters and 5.0 gave a lot of previous tournament favorites a slap down. As we had some odd tekken world tour champions like South Korea's rangchu who is the first bear world champion or other unorthodox picks like zafina or Kazumi by Arslan ash from Pakistan.
I played VF5 for very little amount of time, but it was enough for me to conclude that this is the most hardcore fighting game out there. And I absolutely agree with the thesis about mashing buttons. It was enough for me to just research characters command list's and some basic mechanics to be able to not lose a single round against a button-masher. But unfortunately that's probably why most people are repulsed from this franchise and why we don't see new instalments after VF5. This game doesn't sell.
As someone who grew up with Virtua Fighter it's good to see peope who still hold it in such high regard even though the series is so incredibly underrated. Great and informative vid~
I haven't played VF, but I can say with certainty that there is a lot of misleading information about Tekken in this vid. Where do I begin? 1.) Tekken also has Sabaki parries and it has for a long time now. Nothing new here. 2.) Kuma/panda, is literally the only character that is purposefully unbalanced in every game. He is meant to be a sort of comic relief character that can quickly turn the tides if you aren't careful punishing him. He gives the same psychological effect of a Dan Hibiki. If you are getting beat by him, it messes with you. In addition, Knee is a mighty ruler with Kuma, so that should clear up any pseudo balancing issues competitively speaking. 3.) Yes, 10 hit combos are not tournament viable because they have lows that can be low parried. Not because the moves themselves do not work. Infact, the first 3 to 4 hits of the 10 hit combos are often used for pressure or mental frame advantage. 4.) Every move in Tekken is viable, and even if it isn't used in a match, that doesn't mean that it isn't doing its job. The mental deterrence of knowing a move exists is enough to keep competitive players honest. For instance, a Steve player may never use b1 in a match, but the knowledge of knowing that he has such a strong CH move is enough to make anyone more reserved about rushing him. The same goes for the Mishima Hellsweep. 5.) Yes, there are some moves that crush mids, but these are mostly done by characters that are evasive in nature, so it makes perfect sense that they may have that ability to bend this rule to an extent. Xiaoyu`s art of Phoenix and Lilli`s crush moves do this because they are both evasive characters and this is accepted. 6.) Implying that spam works in competitive Tekken is asinine. Pretty much everything can be punished if you have taken the time to learn the command list of your opponent thoroughly. Between side stepping, ducking, back dashing, blocking, low parrying, low blocking, normal parries, sabaki parries and string interrupts, there is almost always an answer. Very few moves are completely safe in this game. It would have been nice if this video was done by a non-biased source.
E Bach Your comment is repeating a lot of misconceptions that many commenters have also said. I would like to clear up a few things since you left such a thorough and thoughtful response. I never claimed that Tekken does not have things like sabakis (Or fuzzing guarding or yomi just to clarify), I was merely trying to show some of the layers of VF. It's hard for me to respond to every point you're making because I'm responding on my phone but I wasn't trying to be biased against Tekken. I never claimed that button mashing was viable in high level play, I said that it happens more effectively at low to what I call intermediate levels of play. Also, I feel that the internet is already mostly biased towards Tekken, this is why no one can offer any criticism, no matter how respectfully, without getting flamed by butt hurt Tekken nut riders. Not saying this is what you are I'm just saying people are taking this stuff was too seriously. I've been having the same conversations hundreds of times so forgive me if I am too weary to keep responding.
Well, I can see that you are getting bullied quite a lot on this thread, so Ill bow out. But before I do, I just want to say this. If you are going to make another comparison video like this, try to make your message more clear and consistent. I am pretty sure that all of these ,"nut riders", are riding your case because you suggest one thing, then completely change tone to a more cynical side. Near the end you say that you don't believe that all the mechanics discussed in the vid make VF better than Tekken. Yet, you have another video that literally says, "why VF is more important than Tekken". Yes, you can argue the semantics of the words "important" and "better", but its things like this that get are going to turn off certain viewers pretty fast. Also, the brash generalizations aren't helping either. Implying that Tekken has no mind games or "Yomi" is a huge fallacy. Also, posting a link to a tier list as a reason for why a fighting game is not balanced is a good way to piss everyone off. Even VF has tier lists. VF may be more balanced, but nearly every competitive fighting game has tiers, and perfect balance is impossible without making the game completely lame, "like a mirror match", as you said. Well, hope you get the ,"nut riders", off your case. Take care now.
One of some obvious reason i love Virtua Fighter: the movement of the characters are very very logically associated with the joystick and button input. Makes it easier for the player to memorize. And the more i play the more i realize that even at this point, the developer has put a thorough consideration which make VF is 'that deep'.
As a martial artist this game really hits home for me, games like Tekken, street fighter, tend to have lots of supernatural elements like flying through the air throwing fireballs etc, if you slow down the animation in Tekken you'll even notice their bodies sometimes stretch or twist in unnatural ways when doing a move, however the characters in Virtua fighter move like proper martial artists, there's no exaggerated hurricane kicks (at least from what I've seen) every single movement I was able to recognize especially with Akira's bajiquan, Jacky's jkd, and Brad burns muay thai, its a little hard to explain, but it just feels so good to watch 🥰
Oh So Jiggly that's a good idea. I didn't realize that the game was that old though. Can you play online with other players? And are people still playing it if you can?
CarnivalPS [SUBSCRIBE]4 TheBest Carnival 2018 Vids uh VF5FS is still online for xbox1 and 360. You might have to go on a Reddit subthread and ask the VF community to play with you. In Japan people still play a lot. Not as much in the West though.
The dislikes are probably from this video not aging well shortly after it was released. A panda player won the Tekken World Tournament after this video released.
Rangchu did say that Panda was above average (not top tier) and had limited sidestep mobility, so the point still stands. However, Rangchu's win also presents an interesting counterpoint to this video, in which you can still win with a lower-tier Tekken character due to top-tier players possibly not having practiced against them. Rangchu said the character match ups were important, not just the tier the character is listed in, so there should always be an opportunity for a surprise win from a lower-tier character.
I think the reasons are pretty simple actually. 1} The first three Tekken games were released on The "Sony Playstation" which sold 105 million units; compared to the first three Virtua Fighter games which were released on the "Sega Saturn" which sold 9 million, and the "Sega Dreamcast" which sold 9 million as well. Virtua Fighter and Virtua Fighter 2 are both in the top 3 best selling games for the saturn. But that doesn't matter because the saturn didn't even sell 1/10th of what the playstation sold. 2} The cost of a Virtua Fighter 2 cabinet in 94 was 6000$ CAD; With Inflation that's around 11'000$ CAD. Virtua Fighter 3 cabinets launched at 27'000$ CAD. Thats around 40'000$ CAD today with inflation. Tekken cabinets were cheap worldwide which meant almost any arcade could get them them. VF3 arcades were so expensive that they were almost owned exclusively by sega. 3} Sega's audience and consumers were mostly older men in their 20s and 30s; as opposed to the consumer demographic of Sony and Tekken which was mostly Teenagers and people in their early adulthood; This means that the tekken community has more internet presence than VF and SEGA fans(hence the dislikes on this video). This also means that you will see more players trying to play professionally for Tekken than VF. Take a former pro like Bun Bun Maru for example. When he was playing VF professionally he was still a teenager/young adult. Now he doesn't play it proffesionally anymore because hes probably in his late 40s. And most people would find it weird that a grown man is playing a video game for a living. And esports is huge for the advertising of fighting games. 4} Virtua Fighter is a Fighting Game. Virtua Fighter basically just means 'Fighting Video Game'. Thats all it is, there is no storymode; nor is there really any investment into the story by sega. This makes it incredibly hard for sega to market the game. It also makes it really hard for casuals to invest themselves into the franchise. I actually find it really impressive how popular the series is when considering these four things. The series has survived on it's amazing gameplay alone which i don't think any other series would be able to do. April 2020 Edit: I’ve got a video about VF6 on my channel in case y’all are interested.
As someone that started Tekken 7 for the first time in 2020, and hearing about Virtua Fighter 5 as well as playing it in the Yakuza 6, this game is a blast to play and I think is actually BETTER than Tekken. It's a sin they didn't add VF5 ultimate showdown for PC. We desperately need more 3d fighters on the platform.
Hopefully it'll come, but as far as fighting games go, the PC now has almost all the major and some minor franchises, most fighting games now have a PC version as standard or released shortly thereafter, this might come, but Virtua Fighter is one of the few well known fighting series that isn't on PC right now.
Long time VF2 player here. Tekken has certainly become a titan in the FGC and genre as a whole, and I can respect that. As for me, I have and always will be more comfortable with Virtua Fighter as I grew up with a Saturn and acquired the PS1 a little later (by the time Dual Shock bundle came out). Tekken 3 is my all time favorite version from the memories alone for sure and I respect both games equally, but I'm a fish out of water in Tekken as a comparison haha. I just subscribed to your channel after watching the Jeffry McWild Lore video and this one. I see you haven't posted in long while. I hope all is well and to see more content. Cheers!
@@VirtuaBros No doubt fam. I appreciate what you do. I do a little something on my channel too but I'm just coasting in the YT game right now. Just a hobby to keep my mind busy.
You got my like on title alone. Virtua Fighter to me, is a more complete fighting game than Tekken. Complexity and balance in simplicity. Clear progression in skill through practice and patience. Every move or strategy can be countered, that’s not just the game, but the player as well. To me, Virtua Fighter is Dark Souls, while Tekken is Dynasty Warriors. Victories are earned, not mashed. Lack of skill will get you humbled quick. Tekken may be style, but Virtua Fighter is substance, and there is a deeper emotional connection to its characters because of their fighting style, not just their aesthetic or taunt. I might also be biased because I’m a martial artist and appreciate the level of detail they put into defining the respective fighting styles of each character. I can give praises all day, but I just wanted to give my quick 2 cents. I really wish Yu Suzuki would come out of retirement and work with AM2 on VF6. Been a fan since VF1. If you want to make a fun tournament, pit the best exclusively VF players vs. the best exclusively Tekken players against each other in their respective games. Would love to see the outcome, but I bet the VF players would win ;)
Lester Solomon Thanks man. I agree with the sentiment of your comment for sure. Thanks for the like, usually people just dislike for the title alone lol
@@vidalzazueta4678 that style is limited to a predefined set of combos you have to memorize though. It's like a dancing game where you have to step on the right arrows at the right time half the time and non-intuitive.
I've noticed that Virtua fighter is the most realistic fighting game ever,and I'm referring to both the actual real world fighting styles and the hit detection and reactions,saddly,this game was obviously beaten down into the ground by street fighter,tekken,dead or alive and others
Buguese I don't think it was just the competition that caused VF to struggle with sales in the end. It think it had a lot to do with poor marketing and corporate mismanagement.
Oh yeah,much like other non popular games like fighting vipers,DX-hird and Battle Arena Toshinden The games are REALLY good,don't get me wrong,sure that they're primitive and clunky,heavy and sorta delayed,but I see charm in them as they inspired other games or their music was awesome as well as some characters,they were fucking great too,but yeah,I know what you mean,Sega was I to force feeding the West with sonic
Getting into the mind of the enemy and predicting their moves to use a counter attack? That's every fucking game including Tekken. You're acting like that's something completely new in Virtua Fighter
Sane Bane That wasn't my intention to act like VF is the only game with Yomi. My point was that Yomi is epitomized in VF to such a degree that the term was coined for use in all fighting games. Sorry if I was unclear on that.
"Im pretty sure in tekken all you.gotta do is be cheaper." Since according to this video VF excels at high level gameplay (just like every competitive game does, as I see it), let's talk about high level Tekken gameplay. Playing cheap won't get you anywhere, because cheap moves have the downside of being very punishable. Plus, players can already make use of that system on lower gameplay levels. I have never played VF aside from a demo I tried years ago on Xbox360, but could it be that the depth of VF comes from "Yomi" and the "Rock-Paper-Scissors"-System, whereas Tekken relies more on frame data and punishing? To punish accordingly to your opponents moves you basically have to know all the characters, which is hard because of Tekkens huge character roster combined with the detailed move lists. For example, the strings that won't be used at high level Tekken can be very good against an opponent who doesn't know the frame data of said string. That emphazises how much a player has to know and remember and react to in order to become "excellent" at Tekken. I truly believe that VF is a great game, but Tekken is very technical in its own ways.
VF 5 Ultimate Showdown dropped a few days ago, and I've been playing it almost non-stop since. As a Tekken 7 fanboy and (try hard) competitor, I love the game. But since the last season, the game has taken a steep dive in its quality, at least to the average competitor. Everythings a launcher, every move knocks down, causes a stun, CH launches or is a natural string. The DLC characters are beyond a joke at this point and it's incredibly hard to ignore. The devs buff and Nerf in such a strange way and it's getting to a point where even hardcore players of the tekken series are beginning to see its numerous faults. Buffing a diluted movelist with bizarre properties doesn't create depth or a more competitive atmosphere. It has just drawn the game away from its roots. VF seems so much more stalwart and stable in its execution, it's really hard to ignore just how competently designed the game feels. This is just a scrubs opinion but thought I'd share my thoughts on it as a tekken player.
The thing about modern fighting game is that they like to be experimental with the patch. Older games such as SF2 or 3 needs to think properly about buffs and nerfs since they need to release it as a new version and it can never be fix again after that. Newer fighting games however had chance to change anything at anytime, so they tend to be lenient about it. Just wait for the final update for Tekken and then we can see how good or bad it is.
This is a great video. I've been playing Tekken for most of my life, but I've never played Virtua Fighter before, and this showed me a lot about both games that I didn't know, like what the movement is like in Virtua Fighter, and the crush system in Tekken. Also, most other videos I've seen like this have obnoxious intros/voices or seem biased on one side. But this video is very fair and the voice and editing is great! I can tell you put a lot of work into this. I can't think of a good reason as to why this has so many dislikes. I don't know if I'll try out Virtua Fighter because of this, because it still doesn't seem quite fun from what I've seen, but I'll definitely subscribe.
novatare Thanks I'm glad you liked the video. I hope if you do decide to play that you get the chance to try out Final Showdown. The music and gameplay in that one is really great :)
Virtua fighter may be “deep” but it is certainly not fun like the way Tekken is, especially with how the oki/stomping system works. Too much interruptions AND way too slow to get up from knockdowns compared to Tekken. The neutral game itself is pretty interesting I just think some modern design tweaks would really take the game far in terms of fun factor
syminite1 VF is more deep, complex, and balanced. It is probably the closest thing we will ever get to a perfect fighting game. Obviously you’re not trying to objectify things. The only objective thing Tekken has over VF is that it has more characters. Even then, VF has more characters that are viable at a high level. So having more characters is pointless.
The thing that I really like about virtua fighter over tekken, as a complete noob to fighting games, is while virtua fighter may be deeper than tekken, I also have a WAY easier time getting into it because of it's simpler control scheme. In these games all they have is one button for punches, one for kicks, and one for guarding. No light or heavy punches, no limb based system like in tekken, just a really simple scheme for a dummy like me to easily get into. It's why I also like smash bros and soul calibur over other fighting games.
A game with just one character need not necessarily be shallow. Chess and go are both mirror matches, both deep AF. It depends on the options available to that one character.
I have been playing Tekken and Virtua Fighter since the first iteration, one thing that kept me holding back to enjoy Tekken is because counter character. It force me to change character from the one I like just to counter. It doesn't feel your own. Where Virtua Fighter really personalize every character as your own. Thanks for bringing this up. I remember now why I stop enjoying Tekken and relegated back to Virtua Fighter 4 Evo just to have fun.
For someone who plays both games, I can say that both have their depth in their own way. It’s hard to say what game is deeper than the other. Many people say Tekken’s deeper because it has a controls scheme of the limbs of your fighter but that doesn’t make a game deeper, I never understood why so many people consider button input acrobatics to be a necessary element to make a fighting game deep. People complain about how VF, or DOAs Punch, Kick, Guard makes the game button mashy with P,P,P,K combos even though Tekken has characters that can do 4 hit combos with a single button. The question I always had was, what is so bad about having easy combos/inputs? What is so special about complex inputs vs simple inputs? For example DOA and Kakuto Chojin have characters that can do 5 hit combos strings that can be done with one button but how does that make the game less deep, when you can just counter, or punish it if people keep spamming it? Don’t get me wrong Tekken’s control scheme does make doing juggles and 10 hit-combos satisfying, but that’s execution, which is not the same thing as Strategy. Being able to use the inputs with clever strategy should be the challenge of the games depth. Anyways It’s hard to compare both games since it’s apples and oranges, Virtua Fighter’s RPS compared to Tekken’s chess like design are completely different game designs.
Certain characters do but no every Tekken characters mixes in directional inputs with different buttons. You are probably talking about the combo assist thing which is redundant.
@@VirtuaBros not that I've adopted them into my game yet, but my next Lab is going to be exactly the presets he set up and trying to get that shit down.
Huey Freeman I compared vf to Tekken bc 1.) The director of the first Tekken was the co-creator of VF and 2.) People claim that Tekken is the king of 3d fighters but the honor rightly belongs to vf
no, the creation of 3D fighting is allbVirtua Fighter should rightly lay claim to. The thing about fighting games is that they should be accurate representations of actually fighting. Virtua Fighter is too staunch and vanilla, everybody is basically an inside boxing master once counters start layering up. That breaks and or suspends my belief of the characters mastery of a specific art. Tekken does not do this as it's not even a fun presentation method for stressing a clash of styles when it dissolves style for the sake of clashing. There are plenty of reasons that Sega dropped the series. They all just happen to be Tekken and SF and DOA(which is stiff robotic fighting done right.) This game is only fair to say is the granddaddy of 3D, not the damn king. That's baiting and it works on me and I hate that you will still do it again. lol
Oh So Jiggly people who know true fighter history can't deny VF is the father of 3d fighter BUT tekken does surpass VF as far as being the king of 3d fighting. Both games are deep but VF is definitely more complex.
Ok, well as a 35yr old I actually grew up with all these games as they came out in arcades, so pretty sure I know this game is neat, but pretty much outdone, and quickly, by everything like it. The down attack is about all that this game has that others do not offer. This move is similar to the MK uppercut in that all characters can do it the exact same method is required to do it across all characters. The true sign of a fighter being good is if it is intuitive, and this series just never really has been. Tekken made the 3D fighter smooth and intuitive, as well as has the most accurate presentation of character styles in any fighting games. Standing and crouching, or into standing from crouching, several ukemi and roll and torpedo from downed attacks that carry to all characters. Virtua fighter doesn't just come off as stiff to this who don't know about it's "complexity", it simply never became fluent of movement, not intuitive.
I don't know what's up with all the dislikes Tekken fans are the biggest bigots of the FGC by far. I mean they even shit on Soulcalibur which made by the same people as Tekken.
Glad to see you made a follow up. I think you did a much better job of getting what you wanted across and I'd say this video is a success! I prefer Tekken and probably always will but I absolutely appreciate Virtua Fighter for what it did and the game that it is.
MaSSaD 98 sorry if I didn't do it justice. Like I said I barely scratched the surface of either game. That's just how deep they both are. I appreciate the feedback and will try to do better in the future.
if the justification for making such a statement is to link to hour long videos explaning the core mechanics of each seperate game - while at the same time not offering any other videos to highlight the contrast between the two series in a more direct light - then, personally, I'd rather he'd not made such a statement in the first place. Video's still okay though.
Wow the tekken fanboys are out in force here, I love both games, but some of these kids clearly haven’t even tried Virtua Fighter to even claim tekken is better. I’ve played both extensively and it’s not even debatable that the balance in Virtua is unmatched, just remember that most “high level” tekken players don’t use characters that require too much skill so their rank is null and void as once you understand their gimmicks they fall apart and can’t figure out how to adapt, it’s easy to claim you’re an orange rank or red rank but state the character and I’ll decide whether to laugh or not. (Seen way too many people saying “bet he’s a green scrub”) Hopefully when VF6 shows up it’ll embarrass tekken again, every new Virtua is a massive step forward while tekken stays the same to avoid making the casuals cry.
GrimGlenn I love both games too but Tekkens fan base does have a lot of annoying fanboy nut riders. So many elitists that only care about rank it's silly lol
+Oh So Jiggly Hey, just wanted to congratulate you on your vid. I've been saying this too for many years now, the rich deep of VF is unmatched. Sorry to see so much hate towards your video just because VF is, sadly, less popular than Tekken, but be sure you did a great job and only spoke the truth. Keep the good job!
GranMaese hey thanks man. It's all good the dislikes don't matter to me since they mostly come from haters who didn't even watch the video. Really glad you liked it though:)
I understand what you are getting at and now I will get into VT because I have been thinking about getting into another game that rewards skill and not some idiot opponent slapping buttons and getting lucky. What makes a game the best in it's genre is all a matter of opinion. Good upload bro
Virtual Fighter is true to it's core. And i agree to this extent, because I like a game that let's you hone your skills when it comes to combo, after understanding the complexity that is the character's combo depending who you're using... For example i use Akira, his moveset consent with very complex combos, but with hours and hours of practice you get a better understanding of the character fighting style and its combo, it challenge your Mental state your "Focus" to see that your hard work paid off, with continuing on using your main character you get a futher adaption meaning your learning new things about the character you've main that you never thought possible....learning new combos and using them against opponents is stretch feat. But it will come in handy in certain situation...this is why this game stay to its core, the very rich 3D fighting game with complex combo and strategic mindset what the game delivers. Don't know why the dislike tho.. You were just preaching the truth man. 👍
I agree with this video. I started my 3D fighting career with Tekken 3. Still love it to this day. But Virtua Fighter 4 was THE defining fighting game for me. So deep, so balanced, less fantasy. Such an amazing experience in the way you meld with your character once you play long enough, get into the higher ranks, and the fight becomes a fine dance of death
I've had Virtual fighter 5 since it released but I never played it much. Yesterday I felt like playing it again from boredom and now Brad Burns is my favorite fighting game character.
As for me, I am open to learn VF. I played a lot of arcade games at a young age. Most of it are shooting games and quest types not only to mention that I played marvel vs capcom. I played tekken since 9 years old and the storyline is what makes me stick to it. In short, fighting games were created to make everyone happy.
Lol almost 2k dislikes. While the importance can maybe be debated, the depth can not. Virtua Fighter is deepest fighting game, 2D or 3D. I can't wait for VF 5 Ultimate Showdown.
@@VirtuaBros Wait a second. You still reply to comments but haven't uploaded in 3 years? Will you return someday? Talk about Tekken 8 or the recent Virtua Fighter news?
If every character can do everything, that's the same as having one character though. Every character having the tools against every move just makes it so that characters lose their identity. Overcoming a bad matchup is part of the fun.
Aysei Each character plays very uniquely from the others in VF. It actually does a great job of preserving identity and variety while still emphasising the fighting system.
Oh no. I love both these games, and before the rollback question came up I was absurdly excited for todays Ultimate Showdown announcement. But this? This video is rough, and its extremely incomplete understanding of either game is going to leave potential players with a bad framework through which to understand playing either. I'm not referring to an incomplete understanding as in "there's more to discuss", I mean that there are very many misconceptions that are just entirely wrong in here. I'm going to throw it back on at double speed and write some notes as I go. If anyone's interested in some of the points to avoid believing here: Defensive characters rule the competitive scene? This video was published in the days when Dragunov's rushdown controlled tournaments, so this claim is a worrying sign the video author isn't actually familiar with the game. 🙁 Counterpicking in Tekken? Name one counterpick. It's not a thing. Players play their mains. No hard and fast rule for crushes? That is patently false. Low crushing crushes all lows and special mids, high crushing crushes all highs. Animations look (a little) floaty and stiff in VF (yes, though really only true if compared to Tekken), but stiffness is only felt by players realizing button mashing is futile? Mashing brings down intermediate players in Tekken? If a player can't block punish or 1 jab into their turn, they aren't intermediate Tekken players. This claim is false. Rock paper scissors gameplay is not unique to VF. You mentioned the importance of movement in Tekken without highlighting how the three movement "mindsets" (bait, rush, and keepout) counter each other in the same way (although with the added demand of space accuracy), and then get other dimensions of three way counter piled on top of them. Consider, at light minus frames (-1 to -4), stepping beats a player jabbing into their turn, jabbing beats homing moves, and homing moves beat the stepper. Interactions like this are everywhere in both these games. Fuzzy guard and sabakis are not examples that differentiate depth between these two series. Not only does Tekken include sabakis, but fuzzy guard is just defensive "tech", or the execution of a superior technique to the default option through the skillful exploitation of the system. Choosing to do the objectively better option is not strategic depth (in this case comparing guessing "high block or break" to fuzzy). These are just like Tekken's Korean backdashing. Or option select breaks after tackles. Even worse, fuzzy guard's function in Virtua Fighter to try and cover multiple options in one defense reduces complexity by potentially beating multiple choices of your opponent's without the defender needing to consciously choose a correct defense. That's one less offensive pattern you need to learn off of your opponent. Fewer false choices is not the same as fewer choices, that point is illogical. Rock paper scissors has three choices and none are false. Tekken has hundreds, but even if only 12 choices are useful it is still not less deep that RPS because of the seven octaves of false choices. In this entire video, the only thing that was discussed was the point blank mixup game and the use of tech. In the four stage model of understanding fighting games as a genre, this is analysis that tops out at stage two, missing out on how some mixup options don't actually "beat" others (blocking doesn't beat strikes, it delays the opponent's offense and, in the case of Tekken and VF, changes who's at advantage without resetting to neutral), and how all of this is dependant on being in the correct position (range, wall and ring edge) which puts demands on a whole other layer of mechanical skill on top of everything else. They do briefly admit this is considered important in Tekken, but avoid noting that it's the same in VF which gives the impression that that is a big difference. Really the difference there is mechanical, because Tekken has a safer backdash but also requires tech to use it effectively. Man, it hurts to see this. Really. I hope the author has taken it upon themself to deepen their understanding of fighting games since this, because they do seem nice otherwise.
Very well measured comment. This whole video reeks of console magazine nonsense from back in the day, where the reviewer understood some of the context and none of the content.
I think the justification may be that they genuinely love Virtua Fighter (and who wouldn't?), but also don't have much experience of fighting games beyond that and so aren't practiced in discerning the whole picture. Seeing that their upload library focuses on games like Shenmue, there may be some nostalgia coloring their perspective too (perhaps they owned a Dreamcast in their formative years), but I believe focusing on that would be an inappropriate way to assess their point when we can instead discuss the meat of it.
*I made a comment in another thread under this video, and I want to add it here for completeness' sake. There's a lot going on here and a lot to understand, and this suggests some theories as to why we can be misled in our understanding of seemingly clear subjects* : "Just speculating, but it is not unheard of for novices to mistakenly assess the depth of a subject simply because they can't know how much more there is to know. Happens often enough with the chess/go divide for example that even I have seen it; a new player assuming chess is more complicated because there are more kinds of pieces prone to more kinds of interactions and some of the tactics like spears and pins are self-evident. Tactics in go are so complex that a beginner won't even be able to recognize them as specific planned groups of moves without years of diligent study. Who recognizes the tanuki no hara tsuzumi tesuji their first time around? Google that, you can see. No, to the beginner that position just looks like meaningless and arbitrary plays, even though every move is precise and planned. Maybe this same thing happens in fighting games, where the thing that seems more technical to the untrained eye only appears so because its tactics are less complicated? Sajam just yesterday [now a week ago, *ed* .] dropped a video about exactly that where he displays how the neutral game still exists in marvel and airdashers, it's just too fast and deep for the layman to understand. I mention this to recommend it, he dissects a great round as an example and it is well worth the watch. With that in mind, would it now mean something different to you if someone were to suggest that among 3D fighters, all share a similar set of mixup tools for the point-blank game with mild differences in emphasis on which of these make for preferred tools to maintain or retake offensive pressure, but that Virtua Fighter's limited and risky linear movement combined with its floaty animations sticking fighters together at great ranges reduces the requirement for players to be accurate in their spacing in the same way that Tekken and Soulcalibur do. Would you then be open to seeing that maybe these games are extremely similar, but that the latter two take all the strategic layers of the former and add equal emphasis to an entirely new dimension (called footsies) that players need to be cognizant of at the same time? If you're willing to take that into consideration, then maybe you could also spare some thought to the potential idea that a game could have an extended combo system that requires players to adjust which combo they are trying to land on the fly depending on whether they want to carry their opponent far with the juggle to set them in a vulnerable position like against a wall, whether they need to readjust because the wall is already too close or diagonal to them, whether they want to maximize damage, or whether they want to set up oki? Something that VF, with its launch-into-three-strings-maybe-a-bounce-too-and-you're-done combos that only get adjusted for bodytype, truly lacks. If you'd be willing to stay humble and consider all that, you may find room for the idea that maybe first glances really aren't accurately telling you about the depth of a game. I love Virtua Fighter, but I also know the truth about its depth, and I further know that depth is a stupid measure of a game when narrow skill demands can still be brilliantly challenging (narrow games like HiFight's Footsies Rollback Edition are incredible, and so are Nidhogg 1&2). This attempt to compare Tekken and VF as if it's a contest is a dumb waste of time. And everyone saying VF is deeper is very wrong. Much love, fighter. [EDIT]: To specify, the big reason VF *feels* like it demands a deeper understanding than other 3D fighters is because the reduction of linear movement's usefulness means that any success immediately requires an understanding of basic mixups and simple frame data (or at least move priority), which isn't as automatically intuitive as using spacing to win. Because the beginner in other games can play around with space to start, they may not even realize there's the mixup and advantage layer to consider until they suddenly need to (ie: they lose against a less novice player). This difference in prioritizing what to learn first sets us up for the misconception."
Feels weird watching this again 3 years later, back then I didn't even know how to properly kbd or what frames were or anything. But wtf was the point of that Alisa clip. And why did he talk about mid crushing while showing Bryan blocking special mids?
Been playing Tekken 7 as my main fighting game and after watching this, I'm actually quite interested in some of the different techniques VF has to offer as another 3D fighter (and at some point I'll play Soul Calibur 6 but idk if people care about that game as much). If I were to start playing VF, which VF game should I pick up?
VF4Evo is the most complex you can get on console. VF5 is the most complex on PS3 and VF5FS is by far the most accessible; it also has online mode. So FS is definitely the best choice.
As a Tekken fanboy, i have an immense amount of respect and love for Virtua Fighter franchise. In fact im going to get Virtua Fighter 6, once it comes out.
I haven’t had a system since Dreamcast. On a lark, I decided to look up if my favorite fighting game - VF - is still around. I’ll be damned, here it is! And it’s nice to see a rundown of why it’s so great, even if I couldn’t really articulate it to myself or my friends at the time.
As someone who mainly plays 2D fighters, I thought everyone knows VF is more technical than Tekken? 3D players should know this best, yet why so many dislikes?
giveagoodsong VF is deeper than Tekken, it’s not really debatable anyone and everyone who has played both games competitively knows this. VF is not only more deep than Tekken. But it is the deepest fighting game series ever.
@@jonthedecisionerjones2629 VF is not a deeper game, the game is clunky, slow, and ridiculous, the "VF is a deeper game" argument is just nonsense that losers like you use to try to give the game more importance than it actually deserves, the game is dead and gone for a reason, and TEKKEN, Street Fighter Mortal Kombat and other fighters of today have taken its place, the game sucks.
Really interesting video while T7 is currently my main game I've always been interested in VF and it's layers. Do you know any character specific guides out there for VF5FS?
Otogimaru88 Thanks for watching! What I know of are the sega of America tutorial videos. I think there are 12 of them or so. The later ones have some character guides like this one on Aoi. Cheers! :) ua-cam.com/video/2Um8h676jTY/v-deo.html
That's a nice way to put it. My first 3d fighting game was VF then Tekken. VF had always had a shorter range of fighters while tekken had a lot but VF fighters were more unique. I feel like Tekken 7 was kind of a let down, a lot of the characters hardly got any new moves. Those air juggle combos are kind of annoying while VF I felt it was more of a ground fighting. What are the chances of seeing VF6? I never got the chance to play VF5, 4 was my last VF. As for button masher I think MK takes the cake.
Atlas My thoughts on VF 6 are that if Soul Calibur and DOA 6 do well then the market for the 3d fighting genre will grow. The more popular the 3d fighting genre becomes the more likely we are to see VF6. I do reccomend VF5FS if you have a ps3, xbox360, or an xbox1.
All 1.8K dislikes ironically probably make Tekken 7 content bitching and complaining about the game. Seriously a good chunk of Tekken 7 content that ends up recommended to me are toxic af. The only good channel is That Blasted Salami.
Yeah I also like blasted salami. King Jae and mainmanswe are pretty cool too. It's ok about the dislikes though. In a couple of years people went from saying "how dare you even speak of vf in the same breath as tekken" to "I think vf probably is deeper than tekken but I disagree with specific points in your video". Of course I'm grateful for any and all feedback but if the central premise of the video is correct I'm okay with being wrong here or there.
Thank you so much about making this video. I grew up in Japan and big fun of VF series. Since VF isn’t popular anymore I’ve been playing third strike instead. 😅 Although I still know and believe that VF has the best balance and depth of fighting games ever made. Hope this will be understood by people and VF comes back at some point.
Tarek AL-Jawi They are both very complex you are right, but remember that depth and complexity are not synonymous. Tekkens depth is diminished by having a roster that is not fully balanced, some inconsistent rules in the fighting system, and some false choices in the move lists at the competitive level.
You really dont know what you're talking about. Tekkens tiers are incredbly close to each other, more than any other modern fighter. Even the bears you think that are useless, they are used by competitive players like NeedMoarCoffee for example. You also seem to cherry pick, showing a wall glitch that only happens in T7 because of the special camera system.
You're actually claiming that Tekken's roster isn't fully balanced? Damn man, I really think you need to look into this stuff more before you make videos about it lol.
Regarding high level players difference in their play by manipulating movement options to gain advantages/catch punishment opportunities, KBD and directional cancels are the superficial things we know and see for T7. What it comes down to at high level is consistent decision making with the movement based on playing your opponent. In the recent Tekken 7 only Strong Style event, one of the competitors commented JDCR's play in grand finals in terms of how he was moving. His crisp movement is second nature to him that once he gets an idea on his opponents patterns, he's already moving his character in a point to cancel out and be there to catch his opponents button if they stick one out. Which is what makes throwing buttons out as a form of neutral play dangerous at high level as players who are amazing at catching punishes will consistently do and take matches. So risk/reward assessment also becomes a big deal. Regarding counter picking and its success rate in competitive T7 against better players, overall the better players have shown their consistency in their basics and understanding of ALL characters. So the player counter picking is putting themselves at a bigger risk unless their play drastically improves to their secondary character to catch their high level opponent on tilt. The best players FORCE The counter pick situations to benefit them as they will bet on their own consistency to win them the set. So you still have the concept of mind games at a high level. Especially when both opponents are VERY familiar with each other in the case of EVO JP 2018 Grand Finals between Knee and Chanel. Regarding your observation of a characters full toolkit not being effective on paper, this isn't exclusive to T7. Every FG has faced this issue before. it is up to the player to find its practicality even in competitive play. The reason why high level players will snuff out 10 hit strings is because of its basic mechanical concept. You have to commit to the string and if it has gaps (which btw it WILL) the player will know when to stop it. Of course it doesn't mean you can't secure a round using it if your opponent is conditioned to look for something else you have. Of course if a game has a better structure providing a consistent toolkit that isn't cluttered, then even better. The only thing I can highly agree is the fact that high level VF decision making is absolute YOMI. And that it comes down to reacting to stuff both players already know how to do consistently at high level. Which makes watching VF at its highest competitive play compelling and a unique experience. Fuudo who is a successful VF player has carried this talent of his in SF4 and won an EVO tournament to his credit. I liked the video and you did explain your part regarding VF well. But almost at the cost of being really dumbfounded on your lack of familiarity with T7's high level competitive play.
I thought the opposite that virtual Fighter is the beginner game for first time fighting games. It's a reason why Virtua Fighter is free in the PlayStation Store and you have to pay for Tekken checkmate. Good video go though.👍
@@VirtuaBros VF does not deserve any credit for Tekken Success .Virtua Figther was just the first one to make a 3d fighting game..someone was going to do it sooner or later ..Tekken was going to happen anyways one way or another.
@@happilyeverafter4716 Considering that Virtua Fighters' co creator Seiichi Ishii was the director of the first Tekken game, and that Jack and Jin appear to be based on unused characters from the original VF roster, I think it's more than safe to say that Tekken owes VF a tremendous amount simply for being heavily influenced by it. Not to mention Nina is basically a bootleg of Sarah Bryant. If it wasn't for VF there would still have been 3d fighting games eventually, but Tekken as we all know it would *not* exist. It is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
@@VirtuaBros Your are very Funny..Nina Williams is far more interesting and appealing visually than sarah and she actually has a history... she even has her own game call death by degress .same applies to every tekken character on comparison with the boring lifeless VF characters..how wait virtua fighter never had a story for their ''characters''..
I am a fan of Tekken, and still prefer it to virtua fighter, mainly due to nostalgia, BUT I do agree, it's more close to a rythm game than a "martial arts simulation". Nothing to do with quality really, more prefrence.
Depth wise the way you explained the VF fighting system is exactly the same as tekken but it doesn't have parries, chickening and extremely difficult movement. So by the definition of what depth is doesn't that make tekken more deep than virtua fighter since it's almost exactly the same but with virtua fighter it has less mechanics while tekken has all the mechanics that virtua fighter has and more? Since there are more decisions made in tekken it's much much deeper of a system and regardless of whether some characters / moves are meta, the core mechanics of tekken are much deeper than virtua fighter. Also theoretically if both players knew every single move and it's frame data in tekken (which already makes it extremely difficult and deep) tekken would be much deeper than virtua fighters already due to its much more increased complexity in mechanics. I think the reason people think tekken is easy is because it is easy to get into e.g spamming etc... but at high level of play if you're red ranks in tekken the level of depth and complexity is much much higher than virtua fighters high level play. Tekken is game where it can be accessible to casuals but mastering tekken is near impossible.
I appreciate your comment. It's very thoughtful and you makes some great points. However, I'm not sure that I agree that having difficult movement contributes to a game's depth per se. There are indeed gameplay mechanics in Tekken that are not in Virtua Fighter. It is also the case that Virtua Fighter has mechanics that are not in Tekken. Also, you mentioned that VF does not have parries, but wouldn't a Sabaki technically count as a parry? How familiar with VIrtua Fighter's mechanics are you? I would invite you to watch some of the videos that explain these mechanics that I have linked below the video in the description. Also, I feel that many elements of Tekken result in false choices at competitive levels of play which makes for less overall depth. That being said I have great respect for both games :)
Oh So Jiggly I see what you're saying I haven't played virtua fighter in a very long time the last one I played was 4 on PlayStation 2 and it was my favourite game at the time although I was very young and didn't play against many people. But I'm just making a conclusion from your video. Even with the reduced overall depth with the false decisions which you describe just the of increased amount of core mechanics the number of false decisions shouldn't matter. For example tekken has the throw system with each throw having different breaks including frame data for throws, not only does tekken have the rock, paper scissors scenario you talked about but it also has lows beat neutral guard and mids and highs beat low guard, Low parry on every character not just one, regular parries and chickening (much harder than throw breaking), armoured moves and low counter to armour moves, juggle resets and okizeme mixups etc... just by judging from the "rock paper scissors" mechanics and the parry you just described , the amount of decision making ( which I would say how depth is calculated) that can occur in one round of tekken seems astronomically high in comparison to virtua fighters judging from this video.
I tried to show the layers of Virtua fighter's game mechanics by starting with rock paper scissors and showing how many options present themselves in a single scenario. I fully admit that there is much more to both Tekken and Virtua Fighter's fighting systems than what I have shown in this video. In my attempt to make the video shorter I only showed a few key examples. Also, don't forget about Virtua Fighter's throw escape, evade throw escape, and throw escape guard mechanics. I apologize if I made it seem like I was saying the VF is deeper because it has "rock paper scissors" as this was not my intention.
Oh So Jiggly I see I will see the other videos you recommended in my spare time . Tekken is an extraordinarily deep game and if virtua fighter is as deep as you say it is I will be thoroughly impressed. Interesting food for thought, depth does not equal difficultly. Tekken itself is a difficult game (mainly due to movement and execution heavy characters such as kazuya) and it would be interesting to see a video on which is more difficult Virtua fighter or Tekken. Tekken 7 had it's difficultly lowered in comparison to Tekken 6 and especially Tag 2 but interestingly Tekken 7 has more depth than both 6 and Tag 2 funny how that works out right. Thanks for the replies you earned yourself a sub :).
I agree with you 100% that depth is not the same as difficult. You make an excellent point about Tekken 7 being lower difficultly than Tag 2 but also being deeper at the same time. Thanks for the support but most of all thanks for the nice conversation I really enjoyed it :)
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You said that tekkens crush system not is all that intutive or something along those lines, that is a weird statement if you ask me. Moves that jumps - low crushes, moves that ducks - high crushes, doesn't matter if its a low/mid/special mid or high that does the crushing. Also you talk about counterpicking in tekken, well... almost NO pro players counter pick, because all characters can win, tier list or not. Jack is considered mid tier, but Saint was so dominant for so long? Alisa and Eliza is considered mid tier too, but Chanel was in grand finals of EVO Japan? Yes there are tiers in tekken, but the differences are so small, ESPECIALLY in a tournament. Last point is that you say that the game at high level play isn't that deep because of how most of the movelists gets shaved because of its risk etc. Which is true, BUT.... to be able to get to that level, you NEEEEED to learn all the bullshit moves, everything. There are two ways of playing tekken, the noob way, and the pro way. And to be able to play against the pros (tournament or ranked or whatever type of play), you must know how to defeat the bullshit, for every character. That's where tekkens real depth is (defensive knowledge). You need to learn how to punish everything so players stop abusing the bullshit moves, there is no way around it. But pro players do use bullshit moves too, but sparely/rarely to catch players off guard, or test their opponents defensive knowledge. I agree that VF is deeper, no doubt, but I think you misrepresented tekken quite a bit in this video.
BeatBuster I was saying that the crush systems rules are not always consistent which makes it feel less intuitive. You bring up a lot of points that I have responded to many times from countless commenters. Some of which I agree with you on, some of which I don't. I fully admit that a better job of representing both games can be done. This was not the purpose of the video, to provide a fully detailed breakdown as the video mentions. The purpose was only to give some reasons why VF is deeper than Tekken. However, I give props to Tekken all day long for its depth and fun. It's a great franchise.
So you disagree with counterpicking (read comments below)? your argument in that comment below was that commentators always talked about advantage/disadvantage in matchups etc. Commentators? really? cmon man.. Well, the advantages are so small that hardly ANYONE counterpicks, ever :p Give me at least 3 examples of deliberate counter picks in any tournament, and a short explanation of why they picked that character in that matchup (doubt you will find any good examples). To me it doesn't seem like you've understood matchups in tekken enough to comment much on this. And the second thing was depth, which we basically agree that VF is deeper. Cant really argue. BUT, the way you talked about tekkens depth in this video also suggests that you haven't got the knowledge about the game to comment much on the matter. You said in the same comment which i talked about above, that most of the characters moves become moot because of the risks involved. That is just not true man. If you read my comment again you will see how this statement is wrong. Go watch any top 8 at a major tournament, and I will guarantee you that you will see LOADS of huge risks/risky moves and big chunk of a characters movelist. The depth for tekken lies within the defensive knowledge a player needs (also execution; movement/backdashes in particular), and pro players most definitely tests their opponents knowledge, remember that you need to react to all these moves (strings, unblockables, low launchers etc) really quickly. Unless you meet someone you know can counter your character in and out. No one has perfect knowledge about every character though, no one. Not even JDCR, who once stated that he hates playing against Eddy, and eddy is a "bad" matchup for his main character Dragunov. The point is, the intent of the video is both fine, and true. But the reason for all the dislikes, is that you haven't got the knowledge about tekken to make some of the statements.
BeatBuster I don't have to give you 3 examples of counter picks. That's a pointless and arbitrary number. Knee counter picks. There's an article on avoiding the puddle that proves it. The point is that counter picking is viable in Tekken, whether you think enough people do it or not is moot.
Knee counter picks to some extent, sometimes, but do you know why? Which article are you referring to? How is counter picking viable in tekken? You need to give reasons to your statements dude. I only see opinions, and very little explaining. You don't have to give me 3 examples of counter picks, but you should be able to if you want to back up your statement that it is viable in tekken, but I guess you can't give me any examples except Knee, which you probably can't even explain to me why he uses a certain character in a certain matchup ^^ I sense strong opinions with little knowledge
BeatBuster Apologies. This is like the 200th time I've had the same conversation. People always say there is no counter picking in Tekken. Then I point out people do it and they walk back their statement a little and say there is some form of counter picking that takes place but that it is not significant. Then I show them this article that proves high level players like knee *do* use counterpicks www.avoidingthepuddle.com/news/2017/7/10/korean-player-majoronetenhundreds-analysis-on-knees-feng-pic.html. Then they read the article and cognitive dissonance doesn't allow them to believe it and they make more excuses. I'm just weary of having the same conversation.
This video fails to grasp basic concepts like complexity and depth, then runs on those bad definitions to try to show how one game is better than another. I liked Virtua Fighter more than Tekken before I watched, but this video's coming close to convincing me otherwise.
The video describes depth as a middleground between variety and balance, with the character roster being a 1:1 comparison of that. Less characters = less variety, but more balance. In the Marvel 2 example, you mentioned the lack of viable characters (fake choices) as a counter to both balance and variety, therefore marking the game as not deep. Yet we know Marvel 2 is deep, because that's not what makes a game deep. Depth in fighting games is how much of the fundamental elements of a game can work to the point where a player can constantly improve and outmaneuver another. For an example, Chess doesn't have variety or balance. White always has an advantage and you can't choose your pieces at the beginning. The simple piece movesets lack much variety or complexity. Yet, we'd call the game deep because the boardstate and the possible future moves are what's dynamic about it.
Kauhmbou I respect where you're coming from. Just to clarify, I was not defining depth as a middle ground like some sort of golden mean between two extremes. I called it an intersection, meaning it contains both variety and balance, complexity and optimal gameplay. But of course arguing over semantics is a bit pointless.
You said it yourself that the low amount of playable characters made Marvel vs Capcom 2 shallow (opposite of deep). There was no attempt to include "optimal gameplay" and "complexity" into the comparison. You then make the claim that its reduction of characters is a lack of balance, therefore it's a lack of variety. That's giving both terms the same definition within its own chart. It's not semantics. The venn diagram doesn't come close to representing your own words, let alone "my" definition. This video strikes me as an emotional rant spoken from a person that just recently got into the competitive element of fighting games. Each response is tempered from the eyes of someone working in public relations, with passive-aggressive insults glazed across. Every decent fighting game has Yomi, mind games, mix-ups, etc. Every decent fighting game has a variation to an approach that counters the default rock/paper/scissors of its own engine. Every fighting game with different characters have match-up specific weaknesses and counters. The trick is to illustrate clearly how they vary, or how much you're rewarded for specific scenarios. By failing to understand what these terms mean or how they relate to each other, attempts to compare other games fall flat.
Kauhmbou Forgive me but I feel like you misunderstood my point with marvel V capcom 2. What I was saying was that variety, balance, complexity, and optimal gameplay (the opposite of false choice) are each necessary but not sufficient components of depth in and of themselves. You need all of them to achieve depth. If you feel like this was an emotional rant then that's what you feel. But I can tell you that I tried my best to create a valid definition of depth from which to analyze each game in order to compare and contrast their respective strengths and weaknesses. I did my best.
Anyone who trash talks VF or Tekken is wrong in my opinion. Both these games were my what got me into fighting games, I honestly wish VF continued its progression and story.
I rock Tekken, but I think you have to respect the maturity and sophistication of the argument being made here. In the loud mouth swamp of UA-cam counter trolling, especially in the world of fighting games, I really dug this. Personally, I I'm not a fan of the rock/paper/scissor mechanics of VF and I think there's a case to be made for the button mashing phase of fighting games (which doesn't just broaden access to new players but allows players to develop skills intuitively, through experimentation, rather than having to go straight to the manual or hours of Intelectual spelunking on dork threads). That said the way that "depth" is framed here is vry cogent and defended convincingly. Great upload, big ups b.
The only thing Virtua Fighter lacks is presentation. Good character odels and such, but the voices are recorded poorly, lack of game modes aside from PVP offline and online, and practically no story. However, teh gameplay is very much deeper than Tekken. Tekken has a lot of maneuvers and such, but Virtua Fighter did come up with more than y'all thought, even character customization in Virtua Fighter 4, before Tekken 5 by about 3-4 years. VF4 also had a EXTREMELY IN-DEPTH tutorial. Tekken still doesn't even have a weight system. Yes, y'all, a WEIGHT SYSTEM!!!
brucenatelee This ^. Just fyi I made some virtua fighter lore videos exploring the story of the game. There is a story but it exists outside the actual games. Please feel free to check them out if you're interested:)
Wanted to leave this (knees tier list) here: ua-cam.com/video/yLayHLrO-s0/v-deo.html
I think it helps to show that characters that have 3 or 4 really spam friendly moves end up being the most viable choices at a competitive level. Also, some characters with "rule breaking" moves have a slight advantage over others at this level of play. Cheers :)
Lul... I think this the most elaborate trolling I have seen in a while.
I can hardly believe that the only two things you could take out of the video is "spam friendliness" and "rule breaking moves". But I guess that's the way to go if you want to stir some people up.
Just keep polarising, it'll definitely push some more clicks on this vid. I think you and I know that this is your most clicked video so far. So congratulations. Maybe you'll be UA-cam "famous" at some point if you keep it up.
Be Tekknical I'm not trying to stir people up. Several people specifically requested this video of me. I tried my best to be respectful to both franchises and to support my claims with evidence. I won't be silent just because people don't want to hear the truth.
Oh wow you responded. I must say I didn't expect that. You obviously are stirring up people. I mean did you read all your comments or just the ones that agree with you? People most likely requested a well laid out explanation of your previous video and not your half baked analysis of deepness between two franchises (of which you compared a whole franchise with the current iteration of the other one I might add). I am NOT going to repeat what I said in my previous and very long and detailed comment you seem to have ignored.
You rehash some claims people have made over time and mix and mash them together which is why your video in fact has certain valid points but out of all the wrong reasons behind them (again read my other comment for more details). A prime example of the way you're spreading half true information is that Aris video you posted here. The almost 20 minute long video has soooooo much more to say in detail and yet you throw it in here as if the two points you mentioned were the whole point of his explanation and OF COURSE these are the ones that can be easily intepreted as something negative about the game "as if" the whole game has the underlying tone of "spam friendliness" and "rule breaking" mechanics to it.
Overall the way you argue is on a very cherrypicky basis just as much as you pay attention or disregard comments in your comment section. And I'd also like you to stop putting words into my mouth I have never said. I, and perhaps a lot of other people, TRY to point out your flaws in your video and why the way you reason is quite messy and at some points comepletely one sided (aside from the fact you are not very well aquainted with fighting game theory in general or at least you leave a heavy imperssion of it), however I have not tried to silence you yet your "opinion" is not some absolute form truth. In fact keep your flawed opinion and come along as some conceited fool who tries very hard to sound eloquent. That choice is yours.
However I'd prefer to keep people away from such heavy half-thruths that are dished out as some inarguable absolutes which they just don't are. Hence me being so persistent and detailed with my comments since you tend to twist a lot of what people actually try to say, if you might have noticed.
It's kinda sad how Virtua Fighter as become this mystical unicorn messiah of absolute balance and difficulty in fighting games when in hindsight it was "just" an excellent franchise that had an amazing game (VF4FT) but failed to deliver in a lot of other aspects like presentation, sound and character developement AND Sega's shitty marketing and primary focus on the japanese market, which is why it pretty much died after VF5FS.
Nowadays we have those people who might have played VF4 on their PS2 (because we all know that VF5 was just "okay" and VF5FS was a "disgrace") think they are well sophisticated enough with the game to call it out to be such a "be-all and end-all" of fighting games when in truth there is no one really around aside from some few still known players like Fuudo to support these claims IF he would agree since, you know, Fuudo plays this "garbage" called Street Fighter nowadays. All we hear is "yeah, I remember it being like that" and we should all know how our memories can be deceiving. But let's just "believe" in it being so and take things for granted for no reason.... Or so the priests in church wish it'd be that way, if you catch my drift..
Be Tekknical Well I apologize for not responding to your earlier comment. As I've told others the UA-cam notifications are fairly sporadic and I sometimes miss people's comments all together. There are hundreds of comments on this video and I can't reasonably spend my time responding to each and every one of them, or search for a comment that I may have missed. Sorry you didn't like the video. As I said I did my best, some people are mad, some aren't, I can't control that. Just trying to tell it like it is.
Dude I don't even play Virtua Fighter and I know this guy has his shit together when it comes to putting together an argument. None of this is to say that Tekken isn't deep enough - it clearly is, each game in the series has a healthy competitive scene that goes on for years. Instead, it's similar to the argument that Boxing isn't as complex as MMA because with the latter you have a greater abundance of combinatorial techniques, disciplines and even limbs to choose from, whereas Boxing is more limited. None of that has stopped Boxing from being an interesting sport to watch, catering to a huge variety of skill levels, it simply means that you can do more with a bigger toolset.
I want Virtua Fighter 6
DottierDig 95 me too. It's really sad not hearing anything for so long.
Sega pls
Oh So Jiggly but there are characters in VF that are in DOA so does that mean they lost right to that character
Jonathan Cifuentes not at all. That's like saying Capcom lost the rights to Akuma because he's in Tekken 7. Guest appearances are quite common in fighting games.
At the very least VF5 on PC. Sega has released pretty much every game they've ever made on PC EXCEPT virtua fighter for some reason.
Virtua Fighter is indeed the deeper game mechanically and I think that is part of what made it the less popular between the two games. Tekken was more accessible and easier for newcomers unlike Virtua Fighter which takes a lot more practice and tact to play it competently. Another reason why Tekken stood out more was because the characters had more personality. As neat as the Virtua Fighter character designs go, their personalities don't stand out at all due to lack of story. I think that if Virtua Fighter gets a 6th game and they flesh out the characters more, it could potentially drum up some new blood and interest.
All in all, I like both games :)
Decadent Gamer You made game great points. There actually is a decent story in VF but it's not found in the actual games. I made a VF lore video series that you might want to check out if you're interested.
Yeah I vaguely remember the plot about the game, especially after watching the anime series where it was enough to convince me there is a story but unfortunately they don't really show any cutscenes depicting it in the game. I have Virtua Fighter 5 and while it was fun, no arcade endings really hurt the experience for me lol
I'll check out the lore video. :)
I mean Tekken characters would have the personality as Harada was smart to base some of them from pop culture and western movies. Even DOA besides its fan service has IMO the best Bruce Lee video game impersonator in Jann Lee. Which also shows the GULF of appeal from an old man drunken fist fighter in Shun Di to arguably one of Tekken's favorite gimmicky drunken fist fighter who is impersonating Jackie Chan from Drunken Master. Which does for VF as they also had fresh ideas for fighting styles to work in their system.
Decadent Gamer word
True but after Tekken 7, I definitely feel the story for the Mishima family is stupid, pointless, and the story mode for Tekken 7 was poorly executed lol
But yeah, in the beginning Harada was smart to try to have some of the characters be based from pop culture and western influence .
VIRTUA FIGHTER 5 ULTIMATE SHOWDOWN HYPE TRAIN ! 🔥🔥🔥
Game will be dead by august 😂😂
@@socialassassin_ yeah, if you're some fortnite scrub who can't play other games for shit
Boring af. Even getting it for free didn't mak me enjoy it.
@@mmmk6322 you talk like you didn't watch the video, or like you disagree with everything said. Why is that?
How is that train going
The amount of dislikes are absurd. Every body knows that smash 4 and Wii sports boxing are the most complex fighters
thatcreepyguy eats Finally somebody who spits the truth! Lol
Nah bruh, Knockout Kings 2003 is the most complex.
That's not how you spell Cartoon Network's punch time explosion XL. This is the one true deepest and greatest of all fighting games.
Obviously you mean Backyard Wrestling my guy
You talking shit? Oh wait you said smash 4. Never mind.
The thing is Tekken has always had a stronger character design and the moves carry way more impact. That being said I really dig how pure the fighting is in Virtua Fighter.
TheCrookedNine I like how you put that. Virtua Fighter definitely has a purity to it.
I disagree with that...I feel like a lot of Tekken characters tend to have seemingly similar appearances and playstyles from a layman's perspective. I'm not super familiar with VF, but from what I've seen, its roster is a lot more diverse in terms of playstyle and aesthetic. Character design doesn't really determine popularity anyway though; SNK's characters in KOF, Fatal Fury, etc. were a lot more unique than Capcom's characters in Street Fighter, yet SF is vastly more popular than any SNK game. Same goes for Guilty Gear characters (although many people probably found GG characters very obscure-looking or ridiculous).
Also, whether or not "moves carry impact" is a purely aesthetic thing; if a new, well developed Virtua Fighter game were to come out for the modern console generation, the moves would definitely look cleaner and better than those from VF5.
The Victator that's true. A new VF would have many aesthetic improvements. I think a new VF would greatly benefit from a cosmetic overhaul.
The Victator Are you talking about quality or popularity? You mentioned how Street Fighter is more popular than Tekken and Guilty Gear, but I personally think that those games have much more to offer.
TheCrookedNine 9
Tekken was designed to be easy to pick up and play, but hard to master.
Virtua Fighter was designed to require Calculus.
MadDragonify M I took calculus it's not that bad ;)
Is that why half the cast are repetitive versions of each other? No one in virtua fighter has this same issue, even mirror matches will show players use the same character differently. In Tekken, everyone spams the same moves, leaving half the move list unused, that's not a problem in VF.
(x-h)^2 + (y-k)^2 = r^2
Solve for 'r' and you'll never get Ring Out again.
Even something like SFV is harder than calculus tbh. Fighting games are all hard.
@@shindean same moves =/= Easier
You can tell from the comments that people are so biased to what they only know they dont even bother to finish the video. I have never played a virtua game in my life but just seeing the tutorial and the footage here blows my mind. DOA blew my mind when I first tried it and what I just saw from VF was more insane. Learn to be open minded guys and that the world is a big place. I enjoy tekken and have played and followed its competetive scene for close to 4 years now. But I can say for certain you will never have more than 5 S tier or truly viable characters at a time in the highest level of play.
Aihara Kusanagi Thanks for your kind words and open mindedness :)
DOA blew my mind when I first played it, simply because how stiff the animations were and it looks like utter shit
giveagoodsong
And VF is still deeper and more complex than Tekken. ;)
Leo Galante
Yup, DOA plays like garbage.
@@AnggaNegara Noob, listen. Kof > blaz blue > guilty gear > samurai showdown 4 > last blade 2 > virtua fighter 5 > art of fighting 3 > street fighter 3rd strike > street fighter IV > ..... DOA > Soul Caliber > a garbage game I heard discussed here named Tekken. Although I play it if there are no other choices around or have no decent competitors in the games I mentioned.
i don't give a F whos better but i want a VF6 soon maybe some guess character from Yakuza series would be awsome.
Sasque Uchija that would be awesome. Or maybe put in Ryo Hazuki from Shenmue.
Oh So Jiggly I would say Drake from uncharted but that's my ideal character.
That would be cool but Ryo and Ren need to be in it
Know I am late to the party, but love Virtua Fighter. I remember watching a kid play it in the arcade and he literally told me "keep your quarter. My dad designed the game." He subsequently perfected every opponent including the final boss Dural with Akira. He then said to me. "Akira is the best character but almost no one will master him."
Woah that's friggin awesome
@@VirtuaBros I always wonder to this day what happened to that guy.
That's cool as fuck.
Stop the cap
its true i was the dad
Does anybody else want virtual fighter 6?
Pineapple You know I do ;)
Now that the trailer for VF5US came up, I sure do hope for a sequel game 👍
VF5US (VF5 Remake) is coming. VF6 is likely in the future now!
I do not care for VF at all. Don't like it, don't play it unless friends want to play it at couch fighting sessions, but I do hope VF6 comes out so all the fans can enjoy it!
There are rumors…. Don’t quote me on that.
Perhaps they Should've added a Guest character from Virtua Fighter in Tekken. Both franchises would've benefited from this and Virtua Fighter is definitely in need of a resurgence. Virtua Fighter is definitely a game that is under appreciated and under played and thanks for posting this video reminding people the significance of Virtua Fighter.
JBKWaka Indeed! Thank you for watching and commenting.
Harada already expressed interest in adding a VF character to Tekken. I think it's more of a problem on Sega's behalf.
:O
@@Shendue
Jacky would be great though.
They just make a game similar to how KOF brings fighters from different games together
They should pick like 5-7 characters from VF, Tekken, and DOA and make a game
I’d certainly be enticed to jump back into fighting games again
As somebody who played tekken before Virtua Fighter, I can see why Virtua Fighter is a very important part of the fighting game genre as a whole (since it’s THE GAME who gave birth to 3D fighting games). Too bad it became overshadowed by other popular fighting games like Street fighter and Tekken itself. I played the first Virtua fighter on an 32X emulator and it is super fun and it is doesn’t rely on button mashing. I really like both VF and Tekken!
That highlights how mediocrity is lauded by the mainstream, Tekken is shallow by comparison. I mean, look at how many people "love" Village and it's bloody terrible.
@@Grandmastergav86 I don't understand why people like you need to put down other things to justify liking something more obscure, Virtua Fighter is amazingly complex and well made through and through just like Tekken is, Tekken just focused more on character and themes for its appeal while Virtua Fighter focused on mechanical complexity on its end. Both can be enjoyed and mastered just as well as the other with plenty of variety and replay value, but apparently it's mediocre because some dumb casuals online prefer it to a game they probably didn't even play.
Despite being a big Tekken fan, I love the points on both this video, and its brilliant predecessor. It's nice to finally have someone who can love one franchise while respecting and appreciating its competition.
Kudos to you, man.
Sasuke Uchiha Thanks so much I'm happy you enjoyed my little videos :)
Oh So Jiggly ;-) They're worth enjoying
Virtua Fighter is and will always be the grand daddy of 3D fighters. Without Virtua Fighter there wouldn't even be Tekken.
NiGHTS1980 That's absolutely right!
@Jeremy Dixon Thank you!
Jeremy Dixon “I’m not good at fighting games and I don’t want to play a game with a large skill gap” there I shortened your comment for you.
Perhaps maybe in an alternative timeline, it would have.
There wouldn't even be PlayStation
It's honestly a crime that virtua fighter is so underated even though it's done so much for 3d fighting game. It also has such a complex yet rewarding to learn fighting mechanic.
That's the way it goes sometimes. Hopefully we can bring it back.
@@VirtuaBros one day we will.
That’s because people are drawn to Tekken.
One mechanic that I like in VF is the attack that does more damage wins (when hit at the same time). This differs from Tekken where frames only matter (only faster attack wins).
It does make sense because a jab will not beat a haymaker, if hit at the same time. So this adds another layer of depth.
Nice! I like that rule too
This exist in Tekken as well. It's to a different degree though. If say, I threw out a faster move (jab or 1) and my opponent threw out a slower counter hit launcher (back 1 ) and they trade, then I would get counter hit launched, my opponent recovers from my jab, finally I get combed. Faster move, but wrong timing makes it the wrong option.
@@giantIAMSBOX I want to understand this but too tired rn. But didn't u just describe a faster move but played to late so it still doesn't hit first?
@Mihail Milev no, it's a double hit scenario where one player gets launched while the other one gets just a jab to the face.
In this case the latter can go on with the combo as they quickly recover from being hit by the jab while the other player is still mid air
(Btw they'll probably have to adjust and do a weaker combo since they've lost time recovering from the hit)
@Mihail Milev more like both hit at the same time. In tekken almost all jabs save for jack and the bears are 10 frames, but let's say the opponent had a +4 frame advantage and gets hit with kazuya's down forward 2 which is a counter hit tool made to launch your opponent with a decent stun. They'll both connect due to the frame data. Though the spacing matters too obviously as jabs are typically safe but if it whiffs on a Mishima player if it's intermediate play it'll most likely be countered with an ewgf juggle. And other times evasive moves will work as well though not everyone has a move that will side step for you and hit but it's mostly useful to characters who are weaker if they get sidestepped to a certain side as tracking moves are more prevalent in 7 than in earlier games. Though I wouldn't say character mash ups really matter since the 4.0 patch fixed most dlc characters and 5.0 gave a lot of previous tournament favorites a slap down. As we had some odd tekken world tour champions like South Korea's rangchu who is the first bear world champion or other unorthodox picks like zafina or Kazumi by Arslan ash from Pakistan.
I played VF5 for very little amount of time, but it was enough for me to conclude that this is the most hardcore fighting game out there. And I absolutely agree with the thesis about mashing buttons. It was enough for me to just research characters command list's and some basic mechanics to be able to not lose a single round against a button-masher. But unfortunately that's probably why most people are repulsed from this franchise and why we don't see new instalments after VF5. This game doesn't sell.
As someone who grew up with Virtua Fighter it's good to see peope who still hold it in such high regard even though the series is so incredibly underrated. Great and informative vid~
SetsunaAtemu Thanks very much I'm happy that you enjoyed watching :)
I haven't played VF, but I can say with certainty that there is a lot of misleading information about Tekken in this vid. Where do I begin?
1.) Tekken also has Sabaki parries and it has for a long time now. Nothing new here.
2.) Kuma/panda, is literally the only character that is purposefully unbalanced in every game. He is meant to be a sort of comic relief character that can quickly turn the tides if you aren't careful punishing him. He gives the same psychological effect of a Dan Hibiki. If you are getting beat by him, it messes with you. In addition, Knee is a mighty ruler with Kuma, so that should clear up any pseudo balancing issues competitively speaking.
3.) Yes, 10 hit combos are not tournament viable because they have lows that can be low parried. Not because the moves themselves do not work. Infact, the first 3 to 4 hits of the 10 hit combos are often used for pressure or mental frame advantage.
4.) Every move in Tekken is viable, and even if it isn't used in a match, that doesn't mean that it isn't doing its job. The mental deterrence of knowing a move exists is enough to keep competitive players honest. For instance, a Steve player may never use b1 in a match, but the knowledge of knowing that he has such a strong CH move is enough to make anyone more reserved about rushing him. The same goes for the Mishima Hellsweep.
5.) Yes, there are some moves that crush mids, but these are mostly done by characters that are evasive in nature, so it makes perfect sense that they may have that ability to bend this rule to an extent. Xiaoyu`s art of Phoenix and Lilli`s crush moves do this because they are both evasive characters and this is accepted.
6.) Implying that spam works in competitive Tekken is asinine. Pretty much everything can be punished if you have taken the time to learn the command list of your opponent thoroughly. Between side stepping, ducking, back dashing, blocking, low parrying, low blocking, normal parries, sabaki parries and string interrupts, there is almost always an answer. Very few moves are completely safe in this game.
It would have been nice if this video was done by a non-biased source.
E Bach Your comment is repeating a lot of misconceptions that many commenters have also said. I would like to clear up a few things since you left such a thorough and thoughtful response. I never claimed that Tekken does not have things like sabakis (Or fuzzing guarding or yomi just to clarify), I was merely trying to show some of the layers of VF.
It's hard for me to respond to every point you're making because I'm responding on my phone but I wasn't trying to be biased against Tekken. I never claimed that button mashing was viable in high level play, I said that it happens more effectively at low to what I call intermediate levels of play.
Also, I feel that the internet is already mostly biased towards Tekken, this is why no one can offer any criticism, no matter how respectfully, without getting flamed by butt hurt Tekken nut riders. Not saying this is what you are I'm just saying people are taking this stuff was too seriously. I've been having the same conversations hundreds of times so forgive me if I am too weary to keep responding.
Well, I can see that you are getting bullied quite a lot on this thread, so Ill bow out. But before I do, I just want to say this.
If you are going to make another comparison video like this, try to make your message more clear and consistent. I am pretty sure that all of these ,"nut riders", are riding your case because you suggest one thing, then completely change tone to a more cynical side. Near the end you say that you don't believe that all the mechanics discussed in the vid make VF better than Tekken. Yet, you have another video that literally says, "why VF is more important than Tekken". Yes, you can argue the semantics of the words "important" and "better", but its things like this that get are going to turn off certain viewers pretty fast.
Also, the brash generalizations aren't helping either. Implying that Tekken has no mind games or "Yomi" is a huge fallacy. Also, posting a link to a tier list as a reason for why a fighting game is not balanced is a good way to piss everyone off. Even VF has tier lists. VF may be more balanced, but nearly every competitive fighting game has tiers, and perfect balance is impossible without making the game completely lame, "like a mirror match", as you said.
Well, hope you get the ,"nut riders", off your case. Take care now.
@@TheDocbach There is alot of useless moves in tekken.
BOOM!
@@VirtuaBros you are super biased .....making videos just to be a biased ass.. move on 🤞🙄
Checkmate, I'm absolutely terrible at both.
One of some obvious reason i love Virtua Fighter: the movement of the characters are very very logically associated with the joystick and button input. Makes it easier for the player to memorize. And the more i play the more i realize that even at this point, the developer has put a thorough consideration which make VF is 'that deep'.
As a martial artist this game really hits home for me, games like Tekken, street fighter, tend to have lots of supernatural elements like flying through the air throwing fireballs etc, if you slow down the animation in Tekken you'll even notice their bodies sometimes stretch or twist in unnatural ways when doing a move, however the characters in Virtua fighter move like proper martial artists, there's no exaggerated hurricane kicks (at least from what I've seen) every single movement I was able to recognize especially with Akira's bajiquan, Jacky's jkd, and Brad burns muay thai, its a little hard to explain, but it just feels so good to watch 🥰
Eileen monkey style kung fu lul
*WARNING* : more toxic tekken fans below.
It’s honestly surprisingly stupid, I saw some dude trying to argue some political shit about means of production or something.
Hii!! I'm a toxic tekken fan!!
@@14120Moikagood for you
This makes me want to get VF just to selectively button mash my way to victory. Challenge Accepted VF fanboys 😘👉😜
CarnivalPS [SUBSCRIBE]4 TheBest Carnival 2018 Vids will you stream it? That would be fun to watch lol
Oh So Jiggly that's a good idea. I didn't realize that the game was that old though. Can you play online with other players? And are people still playing it if you can?
CarnivalPS [SUBSCRIBE]4 TheBest Carnival 2018 Vids uh VF5FS is still online for xbox1 and 360. You might have to go on a Reddit subthread and ask the VF community to play with you. In Japan people still play a lot. Not as much in the West though.
Oh So Jiggly thanks
Get ready for the next battle
I’m terrible at fighting games in general but VF was the first and only one I felt like I could at least be decent at and enjoy
Sorry mate. You're just not good enough 🤷♂️, again sorry
Virtua Fighter 2 was the first fighting game I ever played. I never really got into Street Fighter. It was my favorite fighting game until Tekken 3.
Danny Vizcarra Tekken 3 was awesome!
The dislikes are probably from this video not aging well shortly after it was released. A panda player won the Tekken World Tournament after this video released.
Rangchu did say that Panda was above average (not top tier) and had limited sidestep mobility, so the point still stands. However, Rangchu's win also presents an interesting counterpoint to this video, in which you can still win with a lower-tier Tekken character due to top-tier players possibly not having practiced against them. Rangchu said the character match ups were important, not just the tier the character is listed in, so there should always be an opportunity for a surprise win from a lower-tier character.
How about "why virtua fighter wil never be as popular as tekken"
Musixity That would be interesting actually.
Oh So Jiggly I do aswell, i think itll make a great video
I think the reasons are pretty simple actually.
1} The first three Tekken games were released on The "Sony Playstation" which sold 105 million units; compared to the first three Virtua Fighter games which were released on the "Sega Saturn" which sold 9 million, and the "Sega Dreamcast" which sold 9 million as well. Virtua Fighter and Virtua Fighter 2 are both in the top 3 best selling games for the saturn. But that doesn't matter because the saturn didn't even sell 1/10th of what the playstation sold.
2} The cost of a Virtua Fighter 2 cabinet in 94 was 6000$ CAD; With Inflation that's around 11'000$ CAD. Virtua Fighter 3 cabinets launched at 27'000$ CAD. Thats around 40'000$ CAD today with inflation. Tekken cabinets were cheap worldwide which meant almost any arcade could get them them. VF3 arcades were so expensive that they were almost owned exclusively by sega.
3} Sega's audience and consumers were mostly older men in their 20s and 30s; as opposed to the consumer demographic of Sony and Tekken which was mostly Teenagers and people in their early adulthood; This means that the tekken community has more internet presence than VF and SEGA fans(hence the dislikes on this video). This also means that you will see more players trying to play professionally for Tekken than VF. Take a former pro like Bun Bun Maru for example. When he was playing VF professionally he was still a teenager/young adult. Now he doesn't play it proffesionally anymore because hes probably in his late 40s. And most people would find it weird that a grown man is playing a video game for a living. And esports is huge for the advertising of fighting games.
4} Virtua Fighter is a Fighting Game. Virtua Fighter basically just means 'Fighting Video Game'. Thats all it is, there is no storymode; nor is there really any investment into the story by sega. This makes it incredibly hard for sega to market the game. It also makes it really hard for casuals to invest themselves into the franchise.
I actually find it really impressive how popular the series is when considering these four things. The series has survived on it's amazing gameplay alone which i don't think any other series would be able to do.
April 2020 Edit: I’ve got a video about VF6 on my channel in case y’all are interested.
The same reason why Johann Sebastian Bach and Mozart will never be as popular than Justin Bieber. Casual and mediocrity rule the world.
@Jeremy Dixon There is when compared to Virtua Fighter. But as you've shown on your other comments you clearly know nothing about fighting games.
As someone that started Tekken 7 for the first time in 2020, and hearing about Virtua Fighter 5 as well as playing it in the Yakuza 6, this game is a blast to play and I think is actually BETTER than Tekken.
It's a sin they didn't add VF5 ultimate showdown for PC. We desperately need more 3d fighters on the platform.
Amen to that!
It will be added to PC. Trust me on that
@@masterchiefwasdonedirty9705 I wish...
Hopefully it'll come, but as far as fighting games go, the PC now has almost all the major and some minor franchises, most fighting games now have a PC version as standard or released shortly thereafter, this might come, but Virtua Fighter is one of the few well known fighting series that isn't on PC right now.
While it may not be VF5, VF3TB is on fightcade with rollback, vf3 is played heavily in japan and is well worth getting into
Long time VF2 player here. Tekken has certainly become a titan in the FGC and genre as a whole, and I can respect that. As for me, I have and always will be more comfortable with Virtua Fighter as I grew up with a Saturn and acquired the PS1 a little later (by the time Dual Shock bundle came out). Tekken 3 is my all time favorite version from the memories alone for sure and I respect both games equally, but I'm a fish out of water in Tekken as a comparison haha. I just subscribed to your channel after watching the Jeffry McWild Lore video and this one. I see you haven't posted in long while. I hope all is well and to see more content. Cheers!
Thanks man. I enjoyed reading your comment and I'm glad you're enjoying the lore. Things are going OK. Hope to be able to make content again soon.
@@VirtuaBros No doubt fam. I appreciate what you do. I do a little something on my channel too but I'm just coasting in the YT game right now. Just a hobby to keep my mind busy.
You got my like on title alone. Virtua Fighter to me, is a more complete fighting game than Tekken. Complexity and balance in simplicity. Clear progression in skill through practice and patience. Every move or strategy can be countered, that’s not just the game, but the player as well. To me, Virtua Fighter is Dark Souls, while Tekken is Dynasty Warriors. Victories are earned, not mashed. Lack of skill will get you humbled quick. Tekken may be style, but Virtua Fighter is substance, and there is a deeper emotional connection to its characters because of their fighting style, not just their aesthetic or taunt. I might also be biased because I’m a martial artist and appreciate the level of detail they put into defining the respective fighting styles of each character. I can give praises all day, but I just wanted to give my quick 2 cents. I really wish Yu Suzuki would come out of retirement and work with AM2 on VF6. Been a fan since VF1. If you want to make a fun tournament, pit the best exclusively VF players vs. the best exclusively Tekken players against each other in their respective games. Would love to see the outcome, but I bet the VF players would win ;)
Lester Solomon Thanks man. I agree with the sentiment of your comment for sure. Thanks for the like, usually people just dislike for the title alone lol
Dude Tekken has a wide variety of fighting styles that give the characters personality.
@@vidalzazueta4678 that style is limited to a predefined set of combos you have to memorize though. It's like a dancing game where you have to step on the right arrows at the right time half the time and non-intuitive.
@@thedarkyellowpages4016 Tekken also has a lot of combo flexibility due to various factors.
@@thedarkyellowpages4016 nagh, there are so many combo options and just pressing 1111 or 2222 after a launch will get you some damage in
With all this aggression in t8, tekken is trying to be virtua fighter
Without virtua fighter there is NO tekken
💯
Sucks that tekken is the only new 3d fighter
I've noticed that Virtua fighter is the most realistic fighting game ever,and I'm referring to both the actual real world fighting styles and the hit detection and reactions,saddly,this game was obviously beaten down into the ground by street fighter,tekken,dead or alive and others
Buguese I don't think it was just the competition that caused VF to struggle with sales in the end. It think it had a lot to do with poor marketing and corporate mismanagement.
Oh yeah,much like other non popular games like fighting vipers,DX-hird and Battle Arena Toshinden
The games are REALLY good,don't get me wrong,sure that they're primitive and clunky,heavy and sorta delayed,but I see charm in them as they inspired other games or their music was awesome as well as some characters,they were fucking great too,but yeah,I know what you mean,Sega was I to force feeding the West with sonic
Buguese very true. Speaking of fighting vipers, have you played fighters Megamix? That game is off the chain!
Oh So Jiggly
Oh yeah,I was gonna include it,but TECHNICALLY its virtua fighter X Fighting vipers,a badass game none the less,my main being Rent-A-Hero
Getting into the mind of the enemy and predicting their moves to use a counter attack? That's every fucking game including Tekken. You're acting like that's something completely new in Virtua Fighter
Sane Bane That wasn't my intention to act like VF is the only game with Yomi. My point was that Yomi is epitomized in VF to such a degree that the term was coined for use in all fighting games. Sorry if I was unclear on that.
You want to play with simple moves?? Go play SF.
"Im pretty sure in tekken all you.gotta do is be cheaper."
Since according to this video VF excels at high level gameplay (just like every competitive game does, as I see it), let's talk about high level Tekken gameplay. Playing cheap won't get you anywhere, because cheap moves have the downside of being very punishable. Plus, players can already make use of that system on lower gameplay levels.
I have never played VF aside from a demo I tried years ago on Xbox360, but could it be that the depth of VF comes from "Yomi" and the "Rock-Paper-Scissors"-System, whereas Tekken relies more on frame data and punishing?
To punish accordingly to your opponents moves you basically have to know all the characters, which is hard because of Tekkens huge character roster combined with the detailed move lists.
For example, the strings that won't be used at high level Tekken can be very good against an opponent who doesn't know the frame data of said string. That emphazises how much a player has to know and remember and react to in order to become "excellent" at Tekken.
I truly believe that VF is a great game, but Tekken is very technical in its own ways.
+Kenneth Forman
Cheaper? If you don't know how to deal with cheap players then you're not even at beginner level.
Kenneth Forman you're fucking stupid. just shut the fuck up and keep to your own business.
VF 5 Ultimate Showdown dropped a few days ago, and I've been playing it almost non-stop since. As a Tekken 7 fanboy and (try hard) competitor, I love the game. But since the last season, the game has taken a steep dive in its quality, at least to the average competitor. Everythings a launcher, every move knocks down, causes a stun, CH launches or is a natural string. The DLC characters are beyond a joke at this point and it's incredibly hard to ignore. The devs buff and Nerf in such a strange way and it's getting to a point where even hardcore players of the tekken series are beginning to see its numerous faults. Buffing a diluted movelist with bizarre properties doesn't create depth or a more competitive atmosphere. It has just drawn the game away from its roots. VF seems so much more stalwart and stable in its execution, it's really hard to ignore just how competently designed the game feels. This is just a scrubs opinion but thought I'd share my thoughts on it as a tekken player.
All opinions are welcome and valid. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I tend to agree with much of what you said as well.
The thing about modern fighting game is that they like to be experimental with the patch. Older games such as SF2 or 3 needs to think properly about buffs and nerfs since they need to release it as a new version and it can never be fix again after that. Newer fighting games however had chance to change anything at anytime, so they tend to be lenient about it. Just wait for the final update for Tekken and then we can see how good or bad it is.
This is a great video. I've been playing Tekken for most of my life, but I've never played Virtua Fighter before, and this showed me a lot about both games that I didn't know, like what the movement is like in Virtua Fighter, and the crush system in Tekken. Also, most other videos I've seen like this have obnoxious intros/voices or seem biased on one side. But this video is very fair and the voice and editing is great! I can tell you put a lot of work into this. I can't think of a good reason as to why this has so many dislikes. I don't know if I'll try out Virtua Fighter because of this, because it still doesn't seem quite fun from what I've seen, but I'll definitely subscribe.
novatare Thanks I'm glad you liked the video. I hope if you do decide to play that you get the chance to try out Final Showdown. The music and gameplay in that one is really great :)
Aris himself said VF was harder.
Zen Razor no one argued that point nor do they say aris is god so who cares about this comment? Doesn't mean VF is automatically better than tekken.
BLKthunda 1220 Aris is pretty well known for being a popular Tekken player, So yeah it's pretty relevant.
He is also well known for playing many other fighting games.
"Oh, one (now only mediocrily) good Tekken pro said VF was harder. Argument won"
Harder doesn’t mean better. Every fighting game ever >Virtual fighter
Virtua fighter may be “deep” but it is certainly not fun like the way Tekken is, especially with how the oki/stomping system works. Too much interruptions AND way too slow to get up from knockdowns compared to Tekken.
The neutral game itself is pretty interesting I just think some modern design tweaks would really take the game far in terms of fun factor
Tekken is certainly unique from vf in terms of the type of fun it offers, I agree.
I think tekken took what virtual fighter had but made it better in my oppinion
rosado360 For some people it did. For others it fell short of VF. It all depends on player taste.
rosado360
VF>Tekken
@@dbgtisunderrated8391 Tekken> Any other 3d fighter.
Exactly the reason why Virtual fighter is dead, and tekken lives on
syminite1
VF is more deep, complex, and balanced. It is probably the closest thing we will ever get to a perfect fighting game. Obviously you’re not trying to objectify things. The only objective thing Tekken has over VF is that it has more characters. Even then, VF has more characters that are viable at a high level. So having more characters is pointless.
I remember having virtual fighter 5 final showdown and no one to play.....
The thing that I really like about virtua fighter over tekken, as a complete noob to fighting games, is while virtua fighter may be deeper than tekken, I also have a WAY easier time getting into it because of it's simpler control scheme. In these games all they have is one button for punches, one for kicks, and one for guarding. No light or heavy punches, no limb based system like in tekken, just a really simple scheme for a dummy like me to easily get into. It's why I also like smash bros and soul calibur over other fighting games.
I feel the same way
A game with just one character need not necessarily be shallow. Chess and go are both mirror matches, both deep AF. It depends on the options available to that one character.
That's a good point. Though I still think most would consider a fighting game with only one character to be shallow.
@@VirtuaBros Oh for sure I don't disagree.
I have been playing Tekken and Virtua Fighter since the first iteration, one thing that kept me holding back to enjoy Tekken is because counter character. It force me to change character from the one I like just to counter. It doesn't feel your own. Where Virtua Fighter really personalize every character as your own. Thanks for bringing this up. I remember now why I stop enjoying Tekken and relegated back to Virtua Fighter 4 Evo just to have fun.
Zealwind my pleasure. It's funny because there are a lot of Tekken fans who deny that counter picking exists in Tekken at all. It's pretty silly.
Hey chief, wake up. It's your time to shine
Virtua fighter is actually hard. I still play evolution sometimes and the matches are always intense
Fast and furious. Only 30 seconds too lol
For someone who plays both games, I can say that both have their depth in their own way. It’s hard to say what game is deeper than the other. Many people say Tekken’s deeper because it has a controls scheme of the limbs of your fighter but that doesn’t make a game deeper, I never understood why so many people consider button input acrobatics to be a necessary element to make a fighting game deep. People complain about how VF, or DOAs Punch, Kick, Guard makes the game button mashy with P,P,P,K combos even though Tekken has characters that can do 4 hit combos with a single button. The question I always had was, what is so bad about having easy combos/inputs? What is so special about complex inputs vs simple inputs? For example DOA and Kakuto Chojin have characters that can do 5 hit combos strings that can be done with one button but how does that make the game less deep, when you can just counter, or punish it if people keep spamming it? Don’t get me wrong Tekken’s control scheme does make doing juggles and 10 hit-combos satisfying, but that’s execution, which is not the same thing as Strategy. Being able to use the inputs with clever strategy should be the challenge of the games depth. Anyways It’s hard to compare both games since it’s apples and oranges, Virtua Fighter’s RPS compared to Tekken’s chess like design are completely different game designs.
Silver Haired Devil I see what you're saying. I definitely agree that execution is not the same as depth
Certain characters do but no every Tekken characters mixes in directional inputs with different buttons. You are probably talking about the combo assist thing which is redundant.
Tekken's air juggling is boring and repetitive. And you know I'm right. That's all I watch people do.
Never played Virtua fighter, but hearing you describe it makes me think it's the fighting game I've always wanted.
Give it a spin my friend you'll fall in love
It's now available 'for free' on PS Plus
I bet you still haven’t played VF, endy.
Dandy J video is amazing, even shows how to setup CPU to practice stuff in training mode, which a lot of tech videos neglect.
It's super good. Everyone is saying check out rooflemonger and all but dandyj was doing vf videos before it was trending.
@@VirtuaBros the sections on fuzzy guard and os's are worth their weight in gold.
@@VirtuaBros not that I've adopted them into my game yet, but my next Lab is going to be exactly the presets he set up and trying to get that shit down.
Why compare to Tekken though? Seems kind of random. This franchise looks more like DOA.
Huey Freeman I compared vf to Tekken bc 1.) The director of the first Tekken was the co-creator of VF and 2.) People claim that Tekken is the king of 3d fighters but the honor rightly belongs to vf
no, the creation of 3D fighting is allbVirtua Fighter should rightly lay claim to. The thing about fighting games is that they should be accurate representations of actually fighting. Virtua Fighter is too staunch and vanilla, everybody is basically an inside boxing master once counters start layering up. That breaks and or suspends my belief of the characters mastery of a specific art. Tekken does not do this as it's not even a fun presentation method for stressing a clash of styles when it dissolves style for the sake of clashing. There are plenty of reasons that Sega dropped the series. They all just happen to be Tekken and SF and DOA(which is stiff robotic fighting done right.) This game is only fair to say is the granddaddy of 3D, not the damn king. That's baiting and it works on me and I hate that you will still do it again. lol
Cool long paragraph. Does absolutely nothing to disprove that VF is deeper than Tekken.
Oh So Jiggly people who know true fighter history can't deny VF is the father of 3d fighter BUT tekken does surpass VF as far as being the king of 3d fighting. Both games are deep but VF is definitely more complex.
Ok, well as a 35yr old I actually grew up with all these games as they came out in arcades, so pretty sure I know this game is neat, but pretty much outdone, and quickly, by everything like it. The down attack is about all that this game has that others do not offer. This move is similar to the MK uppercut in that all characters can do it the exact same method is required to do it across all characters. The true sign of a fighter being good is if it is intuitive, and this series just never really has been. Tekken made the 3D fighter smooth and intuitive, as well as has the most accurate presentation of character styles in any fighting games. Standing and crouching, or into standing from crouching, several ukemi and roll and torpedo from downed attacks that carry to all characters. Virtua fighter doesn't just come off as stiff to this who don't know about it's "complexity", it simply never became fluent of movement, not intuitive.
I don't know what's up with all the dislikes Tekken fans are the biggest bigots of the FGC by far. I mean they even shit on Soulcalibur which made by the same people as Tekken.
Tekken fans only play one game
Glad to see you made a follow up. I think you did a much better job of getting what you wanted across and I'd say this video is a success! I prefer Tekken and probably always will but I absolutely appreciate Virtua Fighter for what it did and the game that it is.
BreadedBrendon Thanks man I appreciate you saying that. I enjoyed making the video it's been a fun experience.
You did your homework well on VF , but I feel that you didn't do it as well on Tekken .
MaSSaD 98 sorry if I didn't do it justice. Like I said I barely scratched the surface of either game. That's just how deep they both are. I appreciate the feedback and will try to do better in the future.
If you feel you hardly scratched the surface, why make such declarative statements?
Kyoshiro5411 he gave sources to argue both views.......
Lol this applies to a countless amount of youtubers - and it's a bit annoying.
if the justification for making such a statement is to link to hour long videos explaning the core mechanics of each seperate game - while at the same time not offering any other videos to highlight the contrast between the two series in a more direct light - then, personally, I'd rather he'd not made such a statement in the first place.
Video's still okay though.
Wow the tekken fanboys are out in force here, I love both games, but some of these kids clearly haven’t even tried Virtua Fighter to even claim tekken is better. I’ve played both extensively and it’s not even debatable that the balance in Virtua is unmatched, just remember that most “high level” tekken players don’t use characters that require too much skill so their rank is null and void as once you understand their gimmicks they fall apart and can’t figure out how to adapt, it’s easy to claim you’re an orange rank or red rank but state the character and I’ll decide whether to laugh or not. (Seen way too many people saying “bet he’s a green scrub”)
Hopefully when VF6 shows up it’ll embarrass tekken again, every new Virtua is a massive step forward while tekken stays the same to avoid making the casuals cry.
GrimGlenn I love both games too but Tekkens fan base does have a lot of annoying fanboy nut riders. So many elitists that only care about rank it's silly lol
+Oh So Jiggly
Hey, just wanted to congratulate you on your vid. I've been saying this too for many years now, the rich deep of VF is unmatched. Sorry to see so much hate towards your video just because VF is, sadly, less popular than Tekken, but be sure you did a great job and only spoke the truth. Keep the good job!
GranMaese hey thanks man. It's all good the dislikes don't matter to me since they mostly come from haters who didn't even watch the video. Really glad you liked it though:)
GrimGlenn tekken force?
VF[6] embarrass Tekken? How? It's always the same.
I understand what you are getting at and now I will get into VT because I have been thinking about getting into another game that rewards skill and not some idiot opponent slapping buttons and getting lucky. What makes a game the best in it's genre is all a matter of opinion. Good upload bro
GamerGang Hey thanks. I'm so glad you're going to get into VF, you're going to have a blast!
*despite what you said,Tekken bested virtua fighter in one crucial point:a very rich and complex story plot*
I think so too. Especially in terms of having it in the games.
Virtual Fighter is true to it's core.
And i agree to this extent, because I like a game that let's you hone your skills when it comes to combo, after understanding the complexity that is the character's combo depending who you're using...
For example i use Akira, his moveset consent with very complex combos, but with hours and hours of practice you get a better understanding of the character fighting style and its combo, it challenge your Mental state your "Focus" to see that your hard work paid off, with continuing on using your main character you get a futher adaption meaning your learning new things about the character you've main that you never thought possible....learning new combos and using them against opponents is stretch feat. But it will come in handy in certain situation...this is why this game stay to its core, the very rich 3D fighting game with complex combo and strategic mindset what the game delivers.
Don't know why the dislike tho..
You were just preaching the truth man. 👍
Dr Jepper thank you brother! :)
Oh So Jiggly np man.
I love both. There is enough space in the fighting game community for both.
Yes! Me too :)
I agree with this video. I started my 3D fighting career with Tekken 3. Still love it to this day. But Virtua Fighter 4 was THE defining fighting game for me. So deep, so balanced, less fantasy. Such an amazing experience in the way you meld with your character once you play long enough, get into the higher ranks, and the fight becomes a fine dance of death
As much i love Tekken and I'm an huge fan of the series but Virtua Fighter is so much fun too play and it deserve love
I've had Virtual fighter 5 since it released but I never played it much. Yesterday I felt like playing it again from boredom and now Brad Burns is my favorite fighting game character.
That's rad!
I'm a Tekken player who just started VF. I love Tekken but VF is a great game. You seem like a cool guy.
Thanks man same to you :)
As for me, I am open to learn VF. I played a lot of arcade games at a young age. Most of it are shooting games and quest types not only to mention that I played marvel vs capcom. I played tekken since 9 years old and the storyline is what makes me stick to it. In short, fighting games were created to make everyone happy.
You should join my VF/Shenmue discord. I just started it yestarday. discord.com/invite/M4aqT96
Virtua Fighter is more deep than tekken. They just need to make a good modern game. I've been waiting, lol.
@forgive.them. we all have. We all have...
Lol almost 2k dislikes. While the importance can maybe be debated, the depth can not. Virtua Fighter is deepest fighting game, 2D or 3D. I can't wait for VF 5 Ultimate Showdown.
Does anyone actually question that VF is the more influential game series?
Unfortunately yes
Virtua Fighter never feels unfair where as tekken feels extremely unfair based on your skillbase.
I definitely agree that VF feels extremely fair. That's something I really like in a fighting game.
@@VirtuaBros Wait a second. You still reply to comments but haven't uploaded in 3 years?
Will you return someday? Talk about Tekken 8 or the recent Virtua Fighter news?
WHO'S HERE AFTER TOKYO GAME SHOW, VF REBOOT!!!!
If every character can do everything, that's the same as having one character though. Every character having the tools against every move just makes it so that characters lose their identity. Overcoming a bad matchup is part of the fun.
Aysei Each character plays very uniquely from the others in VF. It actually does a great job of preserving identity and variety while still emphasising the fighting system.
Look at all those dislikes from Tekken fanboys! 😆
Trust me, they've not played any other fighting game than Tekken or marvel vs capcom.
Oh no. I love both these games, and before the rollback question came up I was absurdly excited for todays Ultimate Showdown announcement. But this? This video is rough, and its extremely incomplete understanding of either game is going to leave potential players with a bad framework through which to understand playing either. I'm not referring to an incomplete understanding as in "there's more to discuss", I mean that there are very many misconceptions that are just entirely wrong in here. I'm going to throw it back on at double speed and write some notes as I go. If anyone's interested in some of the points to avoid believing here:
Defensive characters rule the competitive scene? This video was published in the days when Dragunov's rushdown controlled tournaments, so this claim is a worrying sign the video author isn't actually familiar with the game. 🙁
Counterpicking in Tekken? Name one counterpick. It's not a thing. Players play their mains.
No hard and fast rule for crushes? That is patently false. Low crushing crushes all lows and special mids, high crushing crushes all highs.
Animations look (a little) floaty and stiff in VF (yes, though really only true if compared to Tekken), but stiffness is only felt by players realizing button mashing is futile? Mashing brings down intermediate players in Tekken? If a player can't block punish or 1 jab into their turn, they aren't intermediate Tekken players. This claim is false.
Rock paper scissors gameplay is not unique to VF. You mentioned the importance of movement in Tekken without highlighting how the three movement "mindsets" (bait, rush, and keepout) counter each other in the same way (although with the added demand of space accuracy), and then get other dimensions of three way counter piled on top of them. Consider, at light minus frames (-1 to -4), stepping beats a player jabbing into their turn, jabbing beats homing moves, and homing moves beat the stepper. Interactions like this are everywhere in both these games.
Fuzzy guard and sabakis are not examples that differentiate depth between these two series. Not only does Tekken include sabakis, but fuzzy guard is just defensive "tech", or the execution of a superior technique to the default option through the skillful exploitation of the system. Choosing to do the objectively better option is not strategic depth (in this case comparing guessing "high block or break" to fuzzy). These are just like Tekken's Korean backdashing. Or option select breaks after tackles. Even worse, fuzzy guard's function in Virtua Fighter to try and cover multiple options in one defense reduces complexity by potentially beating multiple choices of your opponent's without the defender needing to consciously choose a correct defense. That's one less offensive pattern you need to learn off of your opponent.
Fewer false choices is not the same as fewer choices, that point is illogical. Rock paper scissors has three choices and none are false. Tekken has hundreds, but even if only 12 choices are useful it is still not less deep that RPS because of the seven octaves of false choices.
In this entire video, the only thing that was discussed was the point blank mixup game and the use of tech. In the four stage model of understanding fighting games as a genre, this is analysis that tops out at stage two, missing out on how some mixup options don't actually "beat" others (blocking doesn't beat strikes, it delays the opponent's offense and, in the case of Tekken and VF, changes who's at advantage without resetting to neutral), and how all of this is dependant on being in the correct position (range, wall and ring edge) which puts demands on a whole other layer of mechanical skill on top of everything else. They do briefly admit this is considered important in Tekken, but avoid noting that it's the same in VF which gives the impression that that is a big difference. Really the difference there is mechanical, because Tekken has a safer backdash but also requires tech to use it effectively.
Man, it hurts to see this. Really. I hope the author has taken it upon themself to deepen their understanding of fighting games since this, because they do seem nice otherwise.
Very well measured comment. This whole video reeks of console magazine nonsense from back in the day, where the reviewer understood some of the context and none of the content.
I really hope he see this comment, Im not qualify in this discussion because ive no knowledge in VF. So i wanna see his justification on this.
I think the justification may be that they genuinely love Virtua Fighter (and who wouldn't?), but also don't have much experience of fighting games beyond that and so aren't practiced in discerning the whole picture. Seeing that their upload library focuses on games like Shenmue, there may be some nostalgia coloring their perspective too (perhaps they owned a Dreamcast in their formative years), but I believe focusing on that would be an inappropriate way to assess their point when we can instead discuss the meat of it.
*I made a comment in another thread under this video, and I want to add it here for completeness' sake. There's a lot going on here and a lot to understand, and this suggests some theories as to why we can be misled in our understanding of seemingly clear subjects* :
"Just speculating, but it is not unheard of for novices to mistakenly assess the depth of a subject simply because they can't know how much more there is to know. Happens often enough with the chess/go divide for example that even I have seen it; a new player assuming chess is more complicated because there are more kinds of pieces prone to more kinds of interactions and some of the tactics like spears and pins are self-evident. Tactics in go are so complex that a beginner won't even be able to recognize them as specific planned groups of moves without years of diligent study. Who recognizes the tanuki no hara tsuzumi tesuji their first time around? Google that, you can see. No, to the beginner that position just looks like meaningless and arbitrary plays, even though every move is precise and planned. Maybe this same thing happens in fighting games, where the thing that seems more technical to the untrained eye only appears so because its tactics are less complicated? Sajam just yesterday [now a week ago, *ed* .] dropped a video about exactly that where he displays how the neutral game still exists in marvel and airdashers, it's just too fast and deep for the layman to understand. I mention this to recommend it, he dissects a great round as an example and it is well worth the watch.
With that in mind, would it now mean something different to you if someone were to suggest that among 3D fighters, all share a similar set of mixup tools for the point-blank game with mild differences in emphasis on which of these make for preferred tools to maintain or retake offensive pressure, but that Virtua Fighter's limited and risky linear movement combined with its floaty animations sticking fighters together at great ranges reduces the requirement for players to be accurate in their spacing in the same way that Tekken and Soulcalibur do. Would you then be open to seeing that maybe these games are extremely similar, but that the latter two take all the strategic layers of the former and add equal emphasis to an entirely new dimension (called footsies) that players need to be cognizant of at the same time? If you're willing to take that into consideration, then maybe you could also spare some thought to the potential idea that a game could have an extended combo system that requires players to adjust which combo they are trying to land on the fly depending on whether they want to carry their opponent far with the juggle to set them in a vulnerable position like against a wall, whether they need to readjust because the wall is already too close or diagonal to them, whether they want to maximize damage, or whether they want to set up oki? Something that VF, with its launch-into-three-strings-maybe-a-bounce-too-and-you're-done combos that only get adjusted for bodytype, truly lacks.
If you'd be willing to stay humble and consider all that, you may find room for the idea that maybe first glances really aren't accurately telling you about the depth of a game. I love Virtua Fighter, but I also know the truth about its depth, and I further know that depth is a stupid measure of a game when narrow skill demands can still be brilliantly challenging (narrow games like HiFight's Footsies Rollback Edition are incredible, and so are Nidhogg 1&2). This attempt to compare Tekken and VF as if it's a contest is a dumb waste of time. And everyone saying VF is deeper is very wrong. Much love, fighter.
[EDIT]: To specify, the big reason VF *feels* like it demands a deeper understanding than other 3D fighters is because the reduction of linear movement's usefulness means that any success immediately requires an understanding of basic mixups and simple frame data (or at least move priority), which isn't as automatically intuitive as using spacing to win. Because the beginner in other games can play around with space to start, they may not even realize there's the mixup and advantage layer to consider until they suddenly need to (ie: they lose against a less novice player). This difference in prioritizing what to learn first sets us up for the misconception."
Feels weird watching this again 3 years later, back then I didn't even know how to properly kbd or what frames were or anything. But wtf was the point of that Alisa clip. And why did he talk about mid crushing while showing Bryan blocking special mids?
NEW VIRTUA FIGHTER ANNOUNCED!!!!!!!!!!
You mean vf x epsorts?
@@VirtuaBros yes i think so
I dread how they can probably change the game to appeal for masses who want more shows.
Been playing Tekken 7 as my main fighting game and after watching this, I'm actually quite interested in some of the different techniques VF has to offer as another 3D fighter (and at some point I'll play Soul Calibur 6 but idk if people care about that game as much). If I were to start playing VF, which VF game should I pick up?
VF4Evo is the most complex you can get on console. VF5 is the most complex on PS3 and VF5FS is by far the most accessible; it also has online mode. So FS is definitely the best choice.
TerminHaider VF5FS
The jank you were talking about was called jab locking. It kinda depends on infinite hitstun
Ayy lmao I see, thanks for the clarification. I always get the Jargon wrong when it comes to stuff like that. Much appreciated :)
As a Tekken fanboy, i have an immense amount of respect and love for Virtua Fighter franchise. In fact im going to get Virtua Fighter 6, once it comes out.
I haven’t had a system since Dreamcast. On a lark, I decided to look up if my favorite fighting game - VF - is still around. I’ll be damned, here it is!
And it’s nice to see a rundown of why it’s so great, even if I couldn’t really articulate it to myself or my friends at the time.
As someone who mainly plays 2D fighters, I thought everyone knows VF is more technical than Tekken? 3D players should know this best, yet why so many dislikes?
Anthony Dharmadi I'm as surprised as you.
giveagoodsong
VF is deeper than Tekken, it’s not really debatable anyone and everyone who has played both games competitively knows this. VF is not only more deep than Tekken. But it is the deepest fighting game series ever.
@@OsumiVF3tb bullsh*t.
All The World's A Stage! Everything he said is correct. VF is a deeper game. This isn’t an arguable topic.
@@jonthedecisionerjones2629 VF is not a deeper game, the game is clunky, slow, and ridiculous, the "VF is a deeper game" argument is just nonsense that losers like you use to try to give the game more importance than it actually deserves, the game is dead and gone for a reason, and TEKKEN, Street Fighter Mortal Kombat and other fighters of today have taken its place, the game sucks.
Really interesting video while T7 is currently my main game I've always been interested in VF and it's layers. Do you know any character specific guides out there for VF5FS?
Otogimaru88 Thanks for watching! What I know of are the sega of America tutorial videos. I think there are 12 of them or so. The later ones have some character guides like this one on Aoi. Cheers! :) ua-cam.com/video/2Um8h676jTY/v-deo.html
That's a nice way to put it. My first 3d fighting game was VF then Tekken. VF had always had a shorter range of fighters while tekken had a lot but VF fighters were more unique. I feel like Tekken 7 was kind of a let down, a lot of the characters hardly got any new moves. Those air juggle combos are kind of annoying while VF I felt it was more of a ground fighting. What are the chances of seeing VF6? I never got the chance to play VF5, 4 was my last VF. As for button masher I think MK takes the cake.
Atlas My thoughts on VF 6 are that if Soul Calibur and DOA 6 do well then the market for the 3d fighting genre will grow. The more popular the 3d fighting genre becomes the more likely we are to see VF6. I do reccomend VF5FS if you have a ps3, xbox360, or an xbox1.
All 1.8K dislikes ironically probably make Tekken 7 content bitching and complaining about the game.
Seriously a good chunk of Tekken 7 content that ends up recommended to me are toxic af. The only good channel is That Blasted Salami.
Yeah I also like blasted salami. King Jae and mainmanswe are pretty cool too. It's ok about the dislikes though. In a couple of years people went from saying "how dare you even speak of vf in the same breath as tekken" to "I think vf probably is deeper than tekken but I disagree with specific points in your video". Of course I'm grateful for any and all feedback but if the central premise of the video is correct I'm okay with being wrong here or there.
Virtua Fighter had a hit anime series,
while Tekken made 4 movies that bombed.
Ken I knew there was a reason you're my main in SF :)
@@VirtuaBros lol, nice video btw
@@pb5721 gracias
Thank you so much about making this video. I grew up in Japan and big fun of VF series. Since VF isn’t popular anymore I’ve been playing third strike instead. 😅 Although I still know and believe that VF has the best balance and depth of fighting games ever made. Hope this will be understood by people and VF comes back at some point.
but examples you gave about complexity of virtual fighter are present in Tekken.
what are you talking about, they are the same
Tarek AL-Jawi They are both very complex you are right, but remember that depth and complexity are not synonymous. Tekkens depth is diminished by having a roster that is not fully balanced, some inconsistent rules in the fighting system, and some false choices in the move lists at the competitive level.
You really dont know what you're talking about. Tekkens tiers are incredbly close to each other, more than any other modern fighter. Even the bears you think that are useless, they are used by competitive players like NeedMoarCoffee for example. You also seem to cherry pick, showing a wall glitch that only happens in T7 because of the special camera system.
You're actually claiming that Tekken's roster isn't fully balanced? Damn man, I really think you need to look into this stuff more before you make videos about it lol.
Oh So Jiggly ye the roster isnt balanced if youre talking about tekken 4 and 5 vanilla. Have you played tekken 7 yet? Might want to give it a shot.
Processingh I own Tekken 7. That's how I was able to capture footage of it. It's a lot of fun :)
I’ve played both, VF is way deeper
Regarding high level players difference in their play by manipulating movement options to gain advantages/catch punishment opportunities, KBD and directional cancels are the superficial things we know and see for T7. What it comes down to at high level is consistent decision making with the movement based on playing your opponent. In the recent Tekken 7 only Strong Style event, one of the competitors commented JDCR's play in grand finals in terms of how he was moving. His crisp movement is second nature to him that once he gets an idea on his opponents patterns, he's already moving his character in a point to cancel out and be there to catch his opponents button if they stick one out. Which is what makes throwing buttons out as a form of neutral play dangerous at high level as players who are amazing at catching punishes will consistently do and take matches. So risk/reward assessment also becomes a big deal.
Regarding counter picking and its success rate in competitive T7 against better players, overall the better players have shown their consistency in their basics and understanding of ALL characters. So the player counter picking is putting themselves at a bigger risk unless their play drastically improves to their secondary character to catch their high level opponent on tilt. The best players FORCE The counter pick situations to benefit them as they will bet on their own consistency to win them the set. So you still have the concept of mind games at a high level. Especially when both opponents are VERY familiar with each other in the case of EVO JP 2018 Grand Finals between Knee and Chanel.
Regarding your observation of a characters full toolkit not being effective on paper, this isn't exclusive to T7. Every FG has faced this issue before. it is up to the player to find its practicality even in competitive play. The reason why high level players will snuff out 10 hit strings is because of its basic mechanical concept. You have to commit to the string and if it has gaps (which btw it WILL) the player will know when to stop it. Of course it doesn't mean you can't secure a round using it if your opponent is conditioned to look for something else you have. Of course if a game has a better structure providing a consistent toolkit that isn't cluttered, then even better.
The only thing I can highly agree is the fact that high level VF decision making is absolute YOMI. And that it comes down to reacting to stuff both players already know how to do consistently at high level. Which makes watching VF at its highest competitive play compelling and a unique experience. Fuudo who is a successful VF player has carried this talent of his in SF4 and won an EVO tournament to his credit.
I liked the video and you did explain your part regarding VF well. But almost at the cost of being really dumbfounded on your lack of familiarity with T7's high level competitive play.
I thought the opposite that virtual Fighter is the beginner game for first time fighting games. It's a reason why Virtua Fighter is free in the PlayStation Store and you have to pay for Tekken checkmate. Good video go though.👍
David Brown Thanks man. Yeah I agree that VF should probably be considered more beginner friendly. Especially with its 3 button layout.
I'm glad you are enthusiastic about VF, but let's not be dumb here. The only reason why 3d fighting games are still relevant is because of Tekken
I don't think I'm being dumb since Tekken as we know it would not exist without VF.
@@VirtuaBros VF does not deserve any credit for Tekken Success .Virtua Figther was just the first one to make a 3d fighting game..someone was going to do it sooner or later ..Tekken was going to happen anyways one way or another.
@@happilyeverafter4716 Considering that Virtua Fighters' co creator Seiichi Ishii was the director of the first Tekken game, and that Jack and Jin appear to be based on unused characters from the original VF roster, I think it's more than safe to say that Tekken owes VF a tremendous amount simply for being heavily influenced by it. Not to mention Nina is basically a bootleg of Sarah Bryant. If it wasn't for VF there would still have been 3d fighting games eventually, but Tekken as we all know it would *not* exist. It is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
@@VirtuaBros Your are very Funny..Nina Williams is far more interesting and appealing visually than sarah and she actually has a history... she even has her own game call death by degress .same applies to every tekken character on comparison with the boring lifeless VF characters..how wait virtua fighter never had a story for their ''characters''..
@@VirtuaBros there will be a Tekken 8..9..10 so on..There will never be another VF..End of Story
I am a fan of Tekken, and still prefer it to virtua fighter, mainly due to nostalgia, BUT I do agree, it's more close to a rythm game than a "martial arts simulation". Nothing to do with quality really, more prefrence.
Alaplace Duchat Absolutely. There's nothing wrong with having a preference as they are both fantastic games.
Depth wise the way you explained the VF fighting system is exactly the same as tekken but it doesn't have parries, chickening and extremely difficult movement. So by the definition of what depth is doesn't that make tekken more deep than virtua fighter since it's almost exactly the same but with virtua fighter it has less mechanics while tekken has all the mechanics that virtua fighter has and more?
Since there are more decisions made in tekken it's much much deeper of a system and regardless of whether some characters / moves are meta, the core mechanics of tekken are much deeper than virtua fighter. Also theoretically if both players knew every single move and it's frame data in tekken (which already makes it extremely difficult and deep) tekken would be much deeper than virtua fighters already due to its much more increased complexity in mechanics.
I think the reason people think tekken is easy is because it is easy to get into e.g spamming etc... but at high level of play if you're red ranks in tekken the level of depth and complexity is much much higher than virtua fighters high level play. Tekken is game where it can be accessible to casuals but mastering tekken is near impossible.
I appreciate your comment. It's very thoughtful and you makes some great points. However, I'm not sure that I agree that having difficult movement contributes to a game's depth per se. There are indeed gameplay mechanics in Tekken that are not in Virtua Fighter. It is also the case that Virtua Fighter has mechanics that are not in Tekken. Also, you mentioned that VF does not have parries, but wouldn't a Sabaki technically count as a parry? How familiar with VIrtua Fighter's mechanics are you? I would invite you to watch some of the videos that explain these mechanics that I have linked below the video in the description.
Also, I feel that many elements of Tekken result in false choices at competitive levels of play which makes for less overall depth. That being said I have great respect for both games :)
Oh So Jiggly I see what you're saying I haven't played virtua fighter in a very long time the last one I played was 4 on PlayStation 2 and it was my favourite game at the time although I was very young and didn't play against many people. But I'm just making a conclusion from your video. Even with the reduced overall depth with the false decisions which you describe just the of increased amount of core mechanics the number of false decisions shouldn't matter.
For example tekken has the throw system with each throw having different breaks including frame data for throws, not only does tekken have the rock, paper scissors scenario you talked about but it also has lows beat neutral guard and mids and highs beat low guard, Low parry on every character not just one, regular parries and chickening (much harder than throw breaking), armoured moves and low counter to armour moves, juggle resets and okizeme mixups etc... just by judging from the "rock paper scissors" mechanics and the parry you just described , the amount of decision making ( which I would say how depth is calculated) that can occur in one round of tekken seems astronomically high in comparison to virtua fighters judging from this video.
I tried to show the layers of Virtua fighter's game mechanics by starting with rock paper scissors and showing how many options present themselves in a single scenario. I fully admit that there is much more to both Tekken and Virtua Fighter's fighting systems than what I have shown in this video. In my attempt to make the video shorter I only showed a few key examples. Also, don't forget about Virtua Fighter's throw escape, evade throw escape, and throw escape guard mechanics. I apologize if I made it seem like I was saying the VF is deeper because it has "rock paper scissors" as this was not my intention.
Oh So Jiggly I see I will see the other videos you recommended in my spare time . Tekken is an extraordinarily deep game and if virtua fighter is as deep as you say it is I will be thoroughly impressed.
Interesting food for thought, depth does not equal difficultly. Tekken itself is a difficult game (mainly due to movement and execution heavy characters such as kazuya) and it would be interesting to see a video on which is more difficult Virtua fighter or Tekken. Tekken 7 had it's difficultly lowered in comparison to Tekken 6 and especially Tag 2 but interestingly Tekken 7 has more depth than both 6 and Tag 2 funny how that works out right.
Thanks for the replies you earned yourself a sub :).
I agree with you 100% that depth is not the same as difficult. You make an excellent point about Tekken 7 being lower difficultly than Tag 2 but also being deeper at the same time. Thanks for the support but most of all thanks for the nice conversation I really enjoyed it :)
So glad I get to play this. I missed out on final showdown but I'm loving every second of Ultimate!
:)
This video title should say:
SHIT CASUALS WHO CAN'T PLAY TEKKEN SAY..
Feminine itch got you down?
Feminine bitch said what?
@@epicon6 Try new & improved, extra strength Vagisil. It relieves itching and hides embarrassing odors. So you can get back to doing what you love: playing subpar fighting games.
Try Vagisil today!
@@johnhorne3052 No thanks, you can keep all of it.
@@epicon6 How 'bout some vinegar and water instead?
You said that tekkens crush system not is all that intutive or something along those lines, that is a weird statement if you ask me. Moves that jumps - low crushes, moves that ducks - high crushes, doesn't matter if its a low/mid/special mid or high that does the crushing. Also you talk about counterpicking in tekken, well... almost NO pro players counter pick, because all characters can win, tier list or not. Jack is considered mid tier, but Saint was so dominant for so long? Alisa and Eliza is considered mid tier too, but Chanel was in grand finals of EVO Japan? Yes there are tiers in tekken, but the differences are so small, ESPECIALLY in a tournament.
Last point is that you say that the game at high level play isn't that deep because of how most of the movelists gets shaved because of its risk etc. Which is true, BUT.... to be able to get to that level, you NEEEEED to learn all the bullshit moves, everything. There are two ways of playing tekken, the noob way, and the pro way. And to be able to play against the pros (tournament or ranked or whatever type of play), you must know how to defeat the bullshit, for every character. That's where tekkens real depth is (defensive knowledge). You need to learn how to punish everything so players stop abusing the bullshit moves, there is no way around it. But pro players do use bullshit moves too, but sparely/rarely to catch players off guard, or test their opponents defensive knowledge. I agree that VF is deeper, no doubt, but I think you misrepresented tekken quite a bit in this video.
BeatBuster I was saying that the crush systems rules are not always consistent which makes it feel less intuitive. You bring up a lot of points that I have responded to many times from countless commenters. Some of which I agree with you on, some of which I don't. I fully admit that a better job of representing both games can be done. This was not the purpose of the video, to provide a fully detailed breakdown as the video mentions. The purpose was only to give some reasons why VF is deeper than Tekken. However, I give props to Tekken all day long for its depth and fun. It's a great franchise.
So you disagree with counterpicking (read comments below)? your argument in that comment below was that commentators always talked about advantage/disadvantage in matchups etc. Commentators? really? cmon man.. Well, the advantages are so small that hardly ANYONE counterpicks, ever :p Give me at least 3 examples of deliberate counter picks in any tournament, and a short explanation of why they picked that character in that matchup (doubt you will find any good examples). To me it doesn't seem like you've understood matchups in tekken enough to comment much on this.
And the second thing was depth, which we basically agree that VF is deeper. Cant really argue. BUT, the way you talked about tekkens depth in this video also suggests that you haven't got the knowledge about the game to comment much on the matter. You said in the same comment which i talked about above, that most of the characters moves become moot because of the risks involved. That is just not true man. If you read my comment again you will see how this statement is wrong. Go watch any top 8 at a major tournament, and I will guarantee you that you will see LOADS of huge risks/risky moves and big chunk of a characters movelist. The depth for tekken lies within the defensive knowledge a player needs (also execution; movement/backdashes in particular), and pro players most definitely tests their opponents knowledge, remember that you need to react to all these moves (strings, unblockables, low launchers etc) really quickly. Unless you meet someone you know can counter your character in and out. No one has perfect knowledge about every character though, no one. Not even JDCR, who once stated that he hates playing against Eddy, and eddy is a "bad" matchup for his main character Dragunov.
The point is, the intent of the video is both fine, and true. But the reason for all the dislikes, is that you haven't got the knowledge about tekken to make some of the statements.
BeatBuster I don't have to give you 3 examples of counter picks. That's a pointless and arbitrary number. Knee counter picks. There's an article on avoiding the puddle that proves it. The point is that counter picking is viable in Tekken, whether you think enough people do it or not is moot.
Knee counter picks to some extent, sometimes, but do you know why? Which article are you referring to? How is counter picking viable in tekken? You need to give reasons to your statements dude. I only see opinions, and very little explaining. You don't have to give me 3 examples of counter picks, but you should be able to if you want to back up your statement that it is viable in tekken, but I guess you can't give me any examples except Knee, which you probably can't even explain to me why he uses a certain character in a certain matchup ^^ I sense strong opinions with little knowledge
BeatBuster Apologies. This is like the 200th time I've had the same conversation. People always say there is no counter picking in Tekken. Then I point out people do it and they walk back their statement a little and say there is some form of counter picking that takes place but that it is not significant. Then I show them this article that proves high level players like knee *do* use counterpicks www.avoidingthepuddle.com/news/2017/7/10/korean-player-majoronetenhundreds-analysis-on-knees-feng-pic.html.
Then they read the article and cognitive dissonance doesn't allow them to believe it and they make more excuses. I'm just weary of having the same conversation.
This video fails to grasp basic concepts like complexity and depth, then runs on those bad definitions to try to show how one game is better than another. I liked Virtua Fighter more than Tekken before I watched, but this video's coming close to convincing me otherwise.
Kauhmbou Sorry you didn't like the video. So you disagree with my definition of depth. What is your definition?
The video describes depth as a middleground between variety and balance, with the character roster being a 1:1 comparison of that. Less characters = less variety, but more balance. In the Marvel 2 example, you mentioned the lack of viable characters (fake choices) as a counter to both balance and variety, therefore marking the game as not deep. Yet we know Marvel 2 is deep, because that's not what makes a game deep.
Depth in fighting games is how much of the fundamental elements of a game can work to the point where a player can constantly improve and outmaneuver another. For an example, Chess doesn't have variety or balance. White always has an advantage and you can't choose your pieces at the beginning. The simple piece movesets lack much variety or complexity. Yet, we'd call the game deep because the boardstate and the possible future moves are what's dynamic about it.
Kauhmbou I respect where you're coming from. Just to clarify, I was not defining depth as a middle ground like some sort of golden mean between two extremes. I called it an intersection, meaning it contains both variety and balance, complexity and optimal gameplay. But of course arguing over semantics is a bit pointless.
You said it yourself that the low amount of playable characters made Marvel vs Capcom 2 shallow (opposite of deep). There was no attempt to include "optimal gameplay" and "complexity" into the comparison. You then make the claim that its reduction of characters is a lack of balance, therefore it's a lack of variety. That's giving both terms the same definition within its own chart. It's not semantics. The venn diagram doesn't come close to representing your own words, let alone "my" definition.
This video strikes me as an emotional rant spoken from a person that just recently got into the competitive element of fighting games. Each response is tempered from the eyes of someone working in public relations, with passive-aggressive insults glazed across.
Every decent fighting game has Yomi, mind games, mix-ups, etc. Every decent fighting game has a variation to an approach that counters the default rock/paper/scissors of its own engine. Every fighting game with different characters have match-up specific weaknesses and counters. The trick is to illustrate clearly how they vary, or how much you're rewarded for specific scenarios. By failing to understand what these terms mean or how they relate to each other, attempts to compare other games fall flat.
Kauhmbou Forgive me but I feel like you misunderstood my point with marvel V capcom 2. What I was saying was that variety, balance, complexity, and optimal gameplay (the opposite of false choice) are each necessary but not sufficient components of depth in and of themselves. You need all of them to achieve depth. If you feel like this was an emotional rant then that's what you feel. But I can tell you that I tried my best to create a valid definition of depth from which to analyze each game in order to compare and contrast their respective strengths and weaknesses. I did my best.
Anyone who trash talks VF or Tekken is wrong in my opinion. Both these games were my what got me into fighting games, I honestly wish VF continued its progression and story.
Rodney Christopher Indeed!
I think what made Tekken rise, was mainly its marketing over the years.
I rock Tekken, but I think you have to respect the maturity and sophistication of the argument being made here. In the loud mouth swamp of UA-cam counter trolling, especially in the world of fighting games, I really dug this. Personally, I I'm not a fan of the rock/paper/scissor mechanics of VF and I think there's a case to be made for the button mashing phase of fighting games (which doesn't just broaden access to new players but allows players to develop skills intuitively, through experimentation, rather than having to go straight to the manual or hours of Intelectual spelunking on dork threads). That said the way that "depth" is framed here is vry cogent and defended convincingly. Great upload, big ups b.
Caliban's Revenge Thanks very much. Happy New year!
I still occasionally come back to this video & I remember when it was new.
Crazy that it was 5 or so years ago
The only thing Virtua Fighter lacks is presentation. Good character odels and such, but the voices are recorded poorly, lack of game modes aside from PVP offline and online, and practically no story. However, teh gameplay is very much deeper than Tekken. Tekken has a lot of maneuvers and such, but Virtua Fighter did come up with more than y'all thought, even character customization in Virtua Fighter 4, before Tekken 5 by about 3-4 years. VF4 also had a EXTREMELY IN-DEPTH tutorial. Tekken still doesn't even have a weight system. Yes, y'all, a WEIGHT SYSTEM!!!
brucenatelee This ^. Just fyi I made some virtua fighter lore videos exploring the story of the game. There is a story but it exists outside the actual games. Please feel free to check them out if you're interested:)
Harada is a VF fan. I think that says all that needs to be said.
Solid point.
The only moment in the video that holds any information is 11:30 to 12:36. The rest is disposable.