Harder sounding drums in midi or audio? 🤷♂️
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- Опубліковано 3 лют 2021
- DECAP compares drums and if they are sounding harder in midi or audio.
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i use to swear by working in purely audio for drums because i thought it sounded better, until i realized i can just turn up the gain on the midi, and it sounds exactly the same. now my workflow is like 20x faster
If you turn Vol < Vel knob to 100% in Simpler which is situated next to the volume knob while inputting midi with 100 velocity, then both audio and midi will sound and visualize equally.
@@Olololx This is the correct answer
Drums always in MIDI so you can easily change the sample later on. The knock depends on your processing, definitely not on the fact if its audio or MIDI.
Midi using a drum rack for with all my samples for the pattern. The output is routed individually to audio tracks so I can easily mix all elements individually without having all of it in drum racks.
Really easy to do, create an audio track, set it to IN. Change "ext in" to your drum rack, under that select your sample. And if you export stems, your whole midi track won't be one audio file with the whole drum beat. It will be individual tracks so you retain full control even during mixing
Is this faster than extracting ndividual stems? Or do you have a template that automatically routes to whatever is inside a given drum rack
Hmm that sounds pretty good care to elaborate
@@antoineguilbeault8025 Don't know your DAW. But say in Ableton. Create a midi track with a drum rack. Create an audio track. Put whatever samples you want into your drum rack. On the audio track, change the input to your drum rack track. Under it select which sample you want to route to this track, for example kick pre fx. Set your monitoring from "auto/off" to IN. Now whenever you hit the midi note for your kick sample, the audio will come out of the audio track.
So if you export the stems, you don't have just one track with the drum rack and all sounds together, you get everyting separate. idk if that's more clear, I could make a quick video but I don't know when I'll have the time
@@antoineguilbeault8025 ua-cam.com/video/2VFLdTA2Gyc/v-deo.html in case I wasn't clear enough lol
@@kougan_music thanks so much, gonna do this from now on!
I have come back to this upload because I used to always use audio when creating my drums, but for a year I instead used midi.
I have now come to the conclusion as follows:-
Although when I have finished and got the sound of my drums how l like them, create drums first on midi but then mixing them down in individual audio tracks. I found although its more work, l have way more control over getting the right sound.
My favourite audio tech is Bruce Swedien and his mantra was ' Do your very best no matter what'
It's not about what is the quickest way for me but only the end results. People talk about work flow and things that get in the way. Although what i find is that if you have the right idea of what you want to create, speed is not my biggest worry.
Hey man you’re awesome! You always answer the questions that no one seems to answer. Thanks for your contributions to the producer community.
That fact people debate about this is so dumb.
☝️
Facts
Cuz they probably can't make a good beat in the first place
Exactly it’s really more a matter of workflow preference
I like drums in audio because its easier for me to just throw stuff in & create grooves with the percussion, but midi makes it way easier to switch out samples while keeping the patterns in place. You can always adjust volume for any of the sounds though so in terms of volume it doesn’t matter if you use audio or midi. Just my opinion on this
the difference is null if u know what ur doing. i go back and forth between audio and midi it just depends on the song and how i’m feeling that day
Yo those default fades. When I saw it I was like yes it makes perfect sense! But never thought about it before!
Both!!! My drum groups always end up being about 50/50 audio and midi tracks. It just depends for each layer if I want to record it in with a controller, or if I want to do some hands on clip warping. Although my kicks tend to be midi so I can trigger a sidechain plugin
Great video as always decap 🔥
thanks for clearing that up!
Honestly I do my drums in audio because I like to see the wave form of them, no other reason.
Same here
Yep
i use both
I started making music using SoundTracker, so I am wired for creating drums in audio. In Ableton I almost exclusively use the Impulse device. It has a limited number of sample slots (I love that limitation) and still can route out individual sounds. I didn't even realize there were camps to be honest.
It’s definetly that it is just louder. Terms like ”better” and ”hitting harder” gets thrown around like candy on halloween in the audio community when what is actually the reality of it is that its just louder. Great explanation 👍 i’m midi on everything except if i should use any loops. Also instruments i tend to freeze and bounce to audio just for the love of my cpu. But main drums like kick, snare, hihat etc stays midi..Simply because of keeping the session tidy, having easy accesible swing options, switch out samples, and ofcourse Push2.
Thanks for clearing that up. Its what I always thought. Its the same sample being triggered in a different way, but so much easier to manage from drum rack
You can normalize the sample volume in midi, then ist having the same loudness...
This👌🏻
I did this experiment a few days ago cuz it came up in class; and i flipped the phase on the drum rack and was able to cancel everything except for the spots where the samples were overlapping. What is helpful about working in audio is that u can clearly see phase coherence, and, that the process is a bit more structurally "pain staking" than writing midi to me, and as such, the ideas that come out of it are a bit more "considered" and a little less "played and felt in real time." for this reason, i tend to write midi if im feeling more hip hop ish and drag in audio samples if im feeling more bass music ish.
Thanks for the myth busting.
I "work" both ways, sometimes when I find really good drum samples I tend to drag and drop them in lane right away.
When I use a pre-curated kit I'll use MIDI from the get go... and anything in between really.
But the more serious the production, the more I am drawn towards using a Drum Rack to really go into sound placement and velocity tweaking and more in-depth. I wish there was the "Track Delay" feature hardwired for every single simpler element in the drum rack tho.
What I love about drum rack is how when you adjust the velocity it can make the hi-hats duck out on the snare and kicks, mimic-ing somebody slamming there drum kit
Decap got this grin on his face everytime he bouta drop some knowledge 🤣
Great topic! Thnx
I work in audio because I like to pitch my drums around throughout a loop. I also like to play with the attack via fades.
I just use the clip volume to act as velocity.
Sometimes changing the sound becomes an issue, but there will always be something
i started doing my drums in midi lately and haven't looked back. super satisfying to be able to just double click a sample to swap it rather than having to go into that replace audio files menu
0:35 both. All depends on what I need and if I'll need to change the sample later
I write drums in MIDI then solo, duplicate, and bounce to audio where I do most of the post processing and fine tuning. Sometimes the original sound I used gets replaced completely, but I find the 3 drum rack method (meat, potato, spice) works best for quick writing.
Yes you are right. Thanks for addressing this unimportant question. File under “Loudness Wars”
In ableton the simpler and sampler there is an added 10 ms attack and release time so you also need to set that to zero inside simpler a sampler
You should check the video of GARDNSOUND ‘audio vs midi’. He explains why flatten midi with processing to audio sounds better. I like both workflows btw.
I will master Abelton soon❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Decap Awesome 😎😎
If you want the same exact volume using samples in Midi as in audio, go into Simpler and turn off "Filter" box and change the "Volume" knob to -4.20. This will phase out each other
I usually go with audio, but I guess a good thing about using midi on-top of all the manipulating tools it offers. It helps keeping the volume down, if you want headroom... or something :D
I usually do all my drums in audio apart from the hi-hats. If there's an intricate swing/bounce that I'm trying to get then I find that it's better to work in midi. But all in all the workflow is the same for me.
MIDI for the kick so I can easily copy it to a trigger channel for side chaining and the rest I use audio🤷🏽♂️
I do percs in audio and for other drums its different everytime...but I do convert em to chop em up after painting em
Can you do a video around Simpler and the velocity settings for 808s etc VS velocity in midi? Some channels are telling people to increase simpler velocity to 10 rather than adjusting Gain. Curious on your thoughts! Salute G!
Thanks
It also depends what your playing the midi through. A sampler starts at -6db sometimes. Zero it out and then try again they should sound the same.
Dragging a sample into midi gain stages it by default.
Pros- allows faster programming and automation of the sampler like pitch, velocity, 128 racks, etc
Cons- resampling audio is faster for doing glitch edits or using warp modes, reverses, or having different samples on the same track.
It’s really not that different as long as you’re aware. The thing is you usually start a tune with one to two bars anyways, so the workflow isn’t better or worse, it’s a matter of preference. I like audio because I destroy it and prefer to commit and work destructively, someone else may want to change their kit halfway through their tune so they work in midi.
I don't really factor sound into it so much as workflow. I find the audio method is easier if I'm just using my mouse, and it's more conducive to mixing on the fly. MIDI on the other hand lets me quickly tap out some ideas on my pads, but for mixing, I either have to adjust the levels and FX from within the drum rack or extract all the chains later on. Just kinda depends on what mindset I'm in at the time.
To hear Simpler playback a sample at the exact volume it was recorded (which is the same as listening to samples directly from an audio track) you don't want Velocity to be having any influence at all. Set Simpler's Velocity and Main Volume to 0. That is all you need to do. Assuming you have "Fades" switched off. Both midi and audio clips will be exactly the same volume. You will still have trouble trying to phase cancel the two though because Simpler introduces a tiny delay of less than 1 sample (a fraction of a millisecond) when triggered. You can adjust the track delay of either but there is always a really tiny click to be heard
most of the time in audio, because i resample a lot and this ends in audio, and also i got push so a want to set the gain clip as a nethod of dynamics most of the time
I asked Decap that same question years ago, and he told me there was no difference in Ableton whether you're working in midi or audio. I was surprised by the answer, but now years later I think I agree. You can always turn it up, or use the gain utility.
i like to pitch bend and reverse/resample/stretch my drums and it feels more convenient in audio mode. also for me its faster to work with effects using audio drums
BOTH!
Abletons Simpler is by default set to -12 dB Gain. set velocity to 100 and the Gain to -6 or 0 dB
Both!
I roll midi until the idea starts coming together. Then bake it to audio at the end. I personally feel its easier to mix and get the nuances of the loops/ ideas more refined versus trying to do that with audio after all the treatment has been applied. Bake it to audio when I know that I'm sticking with the plan.
For me it’s all about workflow and therefore MIDI is my go to. Btw is Live 11 still on beta or did it drop already?
Still beta
I work audio a lot in protools and I’d def be scared of fading in right when on the transient
In terms of the perceived difference between audio and midi, I think you are 100% correct. On a semi related note, I've noticed that pitched hats sound cleaner in a sampler than a simpler, but unlike in drums vs midi, this is not because of differences in DB. I think ableton processes pitch differently in sampler than simpler.
sampler has the interpolation selection "fair, good, quality, best etc" simpler doesnt. If you go into sampler, find "interpolation" select the highest one, save as default, then convert back to simpler, then save as default and I think it makes them the same at that point.
Totally Off Topic, but have you used the ShowDeviceSlots option txt file?!?!?! I don't use "game changer much", but this is HUGE for me!!
Drums in Audio for me. If i run drums in MIDI, my urge to switch samples out over and over is too strong.
I think the default vol in the sampler in Ableton is turned down to -12 to allow for multiple instances of the sampler building up vol into the master. Thats my interpretation of why its turned down.
Correct.. fl studio does the same thing in its step sequencer... each channel is turned down a few Db by default to avoid clipping when layering multiple samples on top of each other. Gain staging is important
I’ve used both but I prefer midi. Its a faster work flow for me. I’m also very indecisive and like to change sounds...I know you can swap the audio out as well but it’s a bit more time consuming. Also I prefer nudging the wav file in simpler
DECAP: the Beat Buster
I prefer audio but I often do both for different things. Dragging and dropping hi hats is not the wave 😂. But I can drag a kick here and there.
Drums in audio seems like a big thing in the Ableton community, I use drums in audio in FL, I just like doing it that way better. I like the audio giving you a much louder starting point to give you more room to work with when turning it down for gainstaging
Damn strait! This is what iv been sayin!
I work in Midi. I'm wondering if you could address something.... I find (and many other producers i talk to) that my kicks turn out weird when i export them from ableton. I do mixing work and often I find that kicks have varying transients, sometimes "flammy" is the word i would use to describe it when i receive the stems from clients. I have gone through any research yet but was thinking about doing it soon. It's only when working with midi btw
Okay.. so check this out.
Just like DECAP aswell i initially thought, this is total bullshit: of course, Audio and MIDI sound the same.
So I made a nulled comparison in Ableton.
(First up, if you use Simpler - that's the device that gets loaded by default in Drum Rack - you have to set "Vol < Vel" to 100 - that way a Note with 100 Velocity, will trigger the Sample at exactly the same level as the original)
I first loaded a Kick as audio file in ableton (no fade in, no warping, HiQ on - completely clean)
And then loaded a Drum Rack with the same file, warp off, vol < vel 100, no fade ins, etc...
Then I inverted one of the tracks - turns out it doesnt cancel out, indeed there is a VERY audible attack left.
For Comparison I also tested the devices Sampler and Impulse in Ableton, both have the same result, they are affecting sound quality, i.e. the attack.
Shit gets really weird for no reason, with some samples i experienced ongoing phasing with the left over attacks, meaning ableton is buggy and inconsitent af.
TURNS OUT, MIDI in ABLETON DOES AFFECT THE SOUND AND ATTACK.
Try it for yourself. This means, there is no way with stock devices in Ableton to trigger Samples via MIDI without losing "knock" and quality..
Gonna have to look into this more - thanks!
This is bullshit I just tried comparing simpler (freeze and flatten) and audio on a kick and they nulled to silence. Make sure that simpler has the filter off, filter and pitch envelopes off, LFO off and vol > vel to 100.
@@maomao180 I will check that again, but I did so extensively, which version of live do you have and on which OS?
@@jordanp.4648 I'm on macOS but I highly doubt the OS will matter in this case unless you are implying Live on Windows "knocks" harder than on Mac 🙄 Live is 10.1.30
@@maomao180 Okay so I checked again, and i also asked a friend to do so. OS is windows 10, live version is 10.1.3, the problem EXISTS, we tried different buffersizes, different audio settings, different sample rates, made sure there is no fades, filters etc. I can do a video if you want to. Will get my hands on a mac now and try there aswell. Dont imply someone is lying only because you cannot replicate the problem.
Even if you drop an audio clip, eventually before mixing during gain staging, using a VU meter one will have to pull down the sample level. Essentially the extra loudness makes kinda no difference.
Do you use a dedicated midi controller for Ableton or just keyboard and mouse
I use MIDI usually for kick and snare patterns. But prefer messing with hi-hat loops and chopping/warping them so I'll usually use audio for that. I find a combination of both is kinda cool. You can get the skeleton of your beat down in MIDI, and then throw some interesting audio loops into it and edit as necessary
Midi most of the time cause I really like to play them with a midi controller but audio for the background percs, cymbals etc...
Exactly. The audio engine don’t care about our assumptions!
midi cuz i find it easier to just play in where i want the sound and i can keep the natural swing if i want to. I also change sounds all the time and its not as easy in ableton to swap it when its in audio
@DECAP In the debate of dragging in audio vs midi programming for drums in Ableton, I think the biggest perceived difference in "hardness" actually has to do with timing, not loudness. Down to milliseconds. I have reproduced the same result over many trials. When programming midi EXACTLY on the grid with simpler, then bouncing the track to audio, then dragging the audio back in, the bounced audio will actually hit several milliseconds AFTER where the midi was programmed (not the same as delay compensation when recording audio INTO Ableton). This is extremely frustrating because results are inconsistent - if you drag in a sampler, and bounce the sound without tweaking any parameters, the audio will bounce perfectly in time. Then if you tweak anything in the adsr, it will bounce several milliseconds late to audio. This seems like a really under-talked about issue with Abletons clocking, especially in a DAW that prides itself on midi capability. I'd be really curious to see if you could duplicate the same results, cause it seems like something Ableton REALLY needs to address. Could be the perceived reason FL Studio "hits" harder than Ableton to people.
I tried this too, and am not getting the same result as you. Can you do a quick video showing what you find? Submit it in my discord for me to check out.
As far as ableton is considered, drums in midi works great if you're using an MPC or midi controller. Drums as Audio works damn well for "creative" purposes (reversing kicks, lining up samples for grooves etc). Both techniques are honestly interchangable, but with audio you can't normalise the samples easily and you can't conveniently change velocities for each shot(you can't keep track of it as easily) and with midi you can't as easily make unique patterns or visually see the whole drum pattern. Both sound exactly the same, it's just about convenience.
Personal note: When I used to use FL I would ONLY use drums through a sampler and rarely as audio and now with Ableton it's flipped over😅
I use midi because I love tapping on my drum pad.
Sometimes I just draw the pattern through MIDI to make things quickly then I create the same pattern with the audio samples and choose what works the best in the mix... most of the time with simple patterns audio samples sounds "better" but sometimes you don't want to "preserve" the original sound, sometimes you want to have more control on it so you can shape it a bit through Simpler... I think it really depends on what you're trying to achieve! ;)
why do you do the same thing both ways? sounds like a huge waste of time
@@cartermatthews8585 If you reread (carefully) I have already explained why ... it is never a waste of time if you are looking for quality. Simpler can potentially ruin the original sound and make something sound worse in the mix.
@@officialdjgi well in the vid he proves simpler doesn't change the sound so idk how it would get ruined
@@cartermatthews8585 the guy here is not trying to prove that and Simpler does change the sound as soon as you use it, I guess your ears are not trained enough to hear that.
@@officialdjgi he actually proves that simpler does not change the sound at all except for the volume depending on the note velocity. I guess your brain isn't trained enough to realize that
Arrange/Produce in midi. Render to audio and mix.
Not a pro by any means but I was like this is a thing? 😅 I couldn't see how a sound would be affected simply because it was being triggered by a midi note besides velocity as mentioned. I can see how the sampler can affect the sound but if I have understood anything, that is what gain staging is about no? If you pass a sound through any plugin/processing you want to maintain the same level going out as coming in, as can clearly be done with the volume knob. I never thought about it as I barely use sampler (rarely to chop a sample), I use MIDI until I'm satisfied and then flatten.
Correct
✌🏼
i like to produce in midi and convert to audio for mixing
Always do drums in audio!! but solely because I personally find it to be a quicker way to get the patterns from your head to the song. I also just find it easier having them on completely separate audio tracks.
Thx Decap. People just don't now their DAW ...
I can lead a horse to water..But can't make it drink even if it's thirsty as shit
I Jes wanna get mines harder on mpc software please tell me how lol?
I do both
Audio is a sound file. MIDI is a production instrument that can play any sound file.
louder is not better
ur intro dawg, shits loud asf but its okay we got love for u bro
also , by default simpler has its volume turned down to -12db did u notice that ?
I do them in midi because that's how I learned to make beats lol
I do in audio in Ableton because I feel like its faster and easier to manipulate.
what about pitch?
midi all the way! so i can control velocity/start point/adsr using lfo mapping!!! to make more human
i make my percussions in midi, then i freeze it so... both maybe? i use midi when i need unquantized stuff.
I use drums in audio Because I feel like I have more control
Sometimes I audio sometimes I use midi,
Drums in MIDI is much more flexible and there is no difference in "knock" quality they both hit just as hard... With MIDI you can easily add grooves and change samples quickly.
I do drums in midi. I find it easier cuz I can play the parts on my keyboard.
Both
Midi !
Did you happen to watch my video?
just so u know ... don't wanna start the war or debate here ... but all the software sounds the same ... if you do the classic phase cancelation test ... BUT ... as soon as you start using more channels , and thing get more intensive ... each software treats differently the summing process ... Ableton start to loose punch and depth until you export the master ... have spent hours trying to make it sound right ... and then when exported the master sounded ok ... thats because primary focus for Ableton is stability ... it was created for LIVE use ... not mixing ... I think is even written in the manual
I do drums on audio
Doesn’t matter. They’re the same.
You’re putting audio into a sampler. That’s it.
At this point some producers are just trying to find the easy way out lol. Stop being lazy like literally eq, Saturate, explore guys!