This is a very important thing that had to be said. Glad it was done in such a well made video. Production value of the video is a great btw. Script is a little weird at some points but it gets the points across well! I hope people will watch this and learn from it. I think I learned from it too
This is a really well made and interesting video. It has a really professional feel, and you provided some really good points. I actually have been noticing a gap in the gameplay and deco of some recent levels which kind of bothered me but I didn't really realize it. This video made me realize. The things you said make sense and seem really logical to me. I will definitely consider what you've said in this video in my future creating projects. Thanks for making this video. :)
Okay, I'm still of those old creator whom build layout while decorate, and tbh, I think they should be separated but in a certain point, as such like building an extra long level, now it's maybe just me but I often think of what I want my level to be and how to make it feel like it following the song story, if I were building an long level then there is no problem of me building the layout and decorations at the same time, but if it's a extra long level, I will want to build the layout first to keep the idea there while I decorating, also here my opinion on specialize creator : that is just stupid tbh, creator should make his owned stuff and not be having role, like i can't make what other think they want to make, yea I can understand their idea but I don't know how to excuse them well like the layout creator want them to be, and most of the time layout creator don't know what they want how this part to look like and even if the decorator understand their idea, they will most of the time spending time fixing structure cause it not fit to their specialize structure making the megacollab even longer or even killing it
Or maybe they just do the layout thinking of the good look of the layout when instead the decorator changes a ton of things because it doesn't really fit the design, or the flow of the visuals, or whatever.
if youre making a solo level, it really depends on how you like to do it. i personally hate creating the layout and deco at the same time, while somebody else may love to create that way. it really just depends how you want to do it imo
This has helped me to become a better collab host, and a better level creator as a whole. Thank you for making this, it's a wake-up call that the community needs, especially now.
This is maybe the reason why I need half a year for four seconds of gameplay. I often have an idea for decoration in mind but I always think that I have to create gameplay first. This results in me trying to create original gameplay and after 1 hour of testing and maybe 26 new blocks I'm demotivated. So I'll take your point into consideration and implement my idea for decoration now and not only when I've finished the layout. Seeing some deco progress might even further motivate me to continue creating. Great vid and thank you for granting me this moment of realization.
cant agree more. When i look back at my older layouts, i tend to question how i thought i was going to be able to deco them, so nowadays i use a simpler style instead.
The title of the video is so true and it really attracted me. You said the right things. I'd also love to see a video about when is the perfect time to start decorating a layout (to avoid the level being unenjoyable and impossible to fix after it got fully decorated). People just underestimate the importance of the playtesting part of making levels so much.
the biggest issue is that a lot of gp creators things like click sync at the highest value and have no consideration of the visuals of the layout. I try to add visual support/effects in all my layouts to some degree at this point so that I and other people understand what the theme actually is so I don't have to write an essay explaining it to them.
Very good video structuring, really good examples that actually made me understand your points better, simple but effective editing. Very cool video, keep it up
Yep. It pains me to see amazing layouts get decorated by amazing decorators and end up as worse than before. Just as important as the sync of gameplay is the visual sync, and if gameplay and decoration focus on different music sync the part as a whole can often end up having no sync at all.
This is the main reason I do not participate in collabs. It's often hard to mix your ideas with others especially if you already have a fully-fledged design made up in your mind. You just don't know if you can rely on your decorator to follow up your idea
I agree with that comment from Viprin. I have a level I made called 'Unnamed Challenge' which is 1.0-styled, but I still put in time to add effects and a bg to it to make it look good.
I agree with what you said, but with one exception. There are some cases where a level would benefit from having someone else build a layout first and then giving it to someone to decorate. By that I mean a simple thing, there are some great creators that just can't make good gameplay. Best example is probably Serponge
@@HJfod Yeah, noticed that while I practiced it lol. I'd say if a creator knows that they aren't that good at some part of level making, they should find someone who is good at that thing and try to work together. As you said in the video though, communication is key
I agree. Communication between the layout and decoration is essential to a successful lvl. Also yea, in an ideal world, we wouldn’t need layout creators, but unfortunately not all decorators now know how to make great gameplay. Everything needs to fit into place for the sake of cohesion, which imo is more important than great deco or gameplay as I feel it contributes more to the overall experience of a lvl than those desperate elements. That’s also why megacollabs are usually seen as worse than solos.
Great video HJFod Also, To take the example of collabs, They are just a succession of independent parts that aren't always related, even when there's a theme. It often lacks a certain consistency either in terms of the gameplay but also the decoration which from one part to another is more or less worked. I can understand that it can be a showcase representing the different building skills of each members, but we need more levels with a real desire to offer a unique experience throughout its duration like a solo level. I would like to share my way of building a collab : Imo, separating each part is important, to focus as much as possible on each element (gameplay, design, effect, art...) BUT instead of assigning a part to a single member, all members should actively participate in each part. I can also help with a possible video on the importance of art making in a level, and explain why it's boring how we (art makers) are not respected as other creators. Thank you :) - Fruck.
Great video. 100% agree with your points. Fantastic editing and great script writing. My only criticism is to edit out unnecessary breathing in your voice overs, and rework some of the humor parts. The in silico joke fell flat imo, but the titanic one was great. Great video otherwise.
today i agree with your points fod, as a gameplay creator i'm upset of megacollab and the lack of communication from decorators, most of the megacollab i've joined gameplay maker where there but decorator absent, recently i've stopped being in megacollabs and started to learn decoration for my solo level, another things that triggers me really hard is that the majority of gameplay maker today makes small parts to show their level of creation but nether a full solo project or gameplay that has a length of 1 min or even more, which is stupid because showing a small part of a gameplay on a full music doesn't say what you are capable of building on a full music to represent the song. ho and also another point that upset me really hard in megacollabs today is standards, in the french community where i am ho boy it's so high that it's impossible for gameplay creator and decorator to be at the same level, the majority of megacollab i've joined are so slow to be build, even some of them are forgotten. Even on youtube there's no full detailed guide for decoration, at all what the fuck it should be important for beginners no ?
I see your point. However I am not a person who cares about gameplay and deco being separate for megacollabs. I’m a megacollab host myself and I like getting creators that excel in gameplay and deco go get an amazing level. It just requires a lot of planning. The layout is almost done and I did a few changes to the level before it was too late. People having a hard time decorating a gameplay part that is not theirs depends on the gameplay creator. Creators that make gameplay styles such as flow, are much easier to decorate. But then you have hawkyre who makes lots of offgrid gameplay because of his creativity. I’m a person who likes flow gameplay so decorators will have a much easier time decorating. Ocular miracle has a few weird gameplay parts that looked really hard to deco, so I get that. But for me I like having high quality gameplay and deco. Levels like zodiac have decent deco but very boring and annoying gameplay because the creators in that level do not excel in gameplay. But then levels like adrenaline by wapon77 has both gameplay and decorators that excel in their fields. And the level looks pretty good although the theme is a bit inconsistent but not that big of a deal for me.
If you have sufficient planning and your gp creators and decorators are all on the same page, then it definitely can work. My point was that when there isn't communication, then it likely won't work.
Agree on everything you said. What a historian. And your video is a hit! This is a comment created before 50 views, like if you're here before 100K views.
oh trust me i think ahead and know what i want the level to look like...but I'm not good enough to do what I want or I can't get other's to help bc they only join collabs that are relevant
I think so many people forget to match the level they are making to it’s song. To me, everything about creating a level stems from the song. If the layout fits the song’s feel, then decorating actually becomes easier.
Of course it's ok. I've been thinking of getting other people to do gameplay for my levels to ensure that my stuff is fun to play, but the problem is that I often have very specific ideas and requirements of what I absolutely want to be in a level, so getting creators who don't get annoyed by endless requests is hard :)
i really think you can do a layout and decorate separately and do it well if you have proper communication about the theming the decorator wants and which types of structures not to use.
This is a very good video that addresses big problems with the community in how megacollabs are handled, however, I'm not quite sure if I fully agree with you on everything. I definitely do understand, as both a decorator and a creator who often makes gameplay, the problems the video presents but the underlying issue between them is how most of these megacollabs were formed to begin with and the complete lack of communication. Just as a decorator can struggle with making good gameplay, a layout creator also struggles with making good decoration. Communication is something taken very lightly in most collabs including the examples you have shown. There was plans on Ocular Miracle being a space collab but that was long decided after the layout process and even then it isn't clearly realized. Night Rider was planned to be designed as a cyberpunk level but that idea was never properly communicated to the layout creators nor was their skill or style even fit for that. There are only those exceptionally few megacollabs that actually take into account both the gameplay and the decorator together that make them special. I strongly believe that, despite these so-called "gameplay creators" trying to make a name for themselves by getting every fundamental down to a precise level from sync to transitions, decorators will always be better at creating gameplay that is more interesting and more importantly, actually original as they themselves have complete control as to what their vision shows. As for your thoughts on Aleph 0 and xo, I don't believe they are neither layouts nor a "finished" level but rather a mix of both. They are layouts in the sense that, even if they would definitely be hard to make proper decoration for, they are only held together by effects which I myself wouldn't really qualify it as a finished level the same way I would treat marwec's layouts, which have a ton of flashy effects with a glow overlay that moves with you, as a layout. But I also treat them as a level in the sense that, the 1.0 aspect is deliberately used to portray their ideas. The only reason why I don't treat them as a full level is because that, even if the 1.0 look works with the aesthetic, it doesn't really feel like it was fully realized either because the creator didn't have the ideas to bring out the feel to it's fullest or was simply unable to do so due to other factors such as time and motivation.
I do see your validity in integrating layout and decoration. But because the opposite created a division between decorators and layout makers, solving this issue wouldn't be easy. Layout makers can exist because they suck at decorating, or perhaps they just like making gameplay. You can't really *force* layout makers to become ingenious decorators. So I think this is one big issue to solving the division.
i dont agree cause if you deco while youre building a layout, its impossible to playtest it because you have to wait the entire thing to load just for a single test, this is true btw i made this same thing on my levels and quitted it and deleted my level because the layout is so buggy from the way i do, yeah not a good idea depending on how bad your device is
Although I think that making gameplay first in a megacollab is very important to making consistent gameplay (this mostly applies to extreme demons) I agree with your most of your points, and I’d also like to say that a lot of cinematic aspects that can be added with properly paced gameplay gets lost when doing a layout prior to decorating. Anyways, this was a great video dude, I enjoyed it! :3
Structures arent part of gameplay. They are more like finishing touches to your layout. In megacollabs, the decorator can change the structures to their liking so, they arent really a problem. Imo people should focus on making the gameplay actually good first, and then move on to add structures and stuff to make the layout look cool.
never said they were not important but, its better to focus on the gameplay rather than making your layout look cool. If you focus too much on visuals, this can lead to making your gameplay bad.
A few people have already made this point and I have to agree, I made a mistake there. In retrospect, I should've made it clear what I meant by my point on structuring. Yes, structuring can be altered, but the part of a structure that's part of the gameplay, i.e. the top of a pillar or a slope the player is supposed to slide on etc. can not be altered in decoration without altering the gameplay; since that's literally what changing gameplay is about. Also, I really should've made points like that some decoration styles only work with non-slopey gameplay where each structure is an odd number in width and pointed upwards. For example, the UFO part's deco in Zenith requires pillars to work and thus also needs to have gameplay that doesn't have long horizontal rows of blocks for the player to stand on top of as that would not be feasible with the established style.
thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you jesus
Oh boy, here we go. Just want to get this out of the way first, the video is SUPER well done, congrats (always expecting the best from you)! But, of course, you touched on a thing that most will have a different opinion on, so here I am. For starters, layouts and decorations are not one of the same and should never be, and the example you gave of the house wasn't a good one. Layouts are, in their essence, the foundation of a level. Sure, you can say that and it is completely right, but what you missed was that layouting is the art of making gameplay, not just the foundation of decoration. As one of the three pillars that make a level a level (the other 2 being decoration and effects, that one will take to much to explain and doesn't really matter for my argument right now) gameplay should not be the same as decoration. That doesn't even make sense, like, would you say that in a movie both imagery and sound design are the same thing, just because they together form a new thing? Of course not. Just like gameplay and decorations. Of course, what you said layout, and you defined it your way, which is not intirely correct in my eyes. Now, about the level Aleph-0, it isn't decorated, at all, our not "at all", but the focus is not decoration in the slitest. Just like Viprin said, it's an effects level. Here is where it get interesting: remember when I talked about the 3 main pillars of a level? Well, Aleph-0 uses 2 of them, gameplay and effects (Yes, I lied about the effects thing not being important to my argument), but not the decoration. As of 2.0, decoration and effects became 2 different thing that accomplish different reactions. Why am I saying this? Because it's true. Here's a simple saying to know while creating in GD: "You can have 2 of the main ingredients and still have the dish served, but if you add another ingredient it will taste even better. But have just one and it will just taste like that one ingredient. Some people might want it, but most want something more complex." I dunno what to expand on more, everything you said apart from what I already mentioned fit my idea of layout, and sorry for making you read all of this, but I just wanted to express my opinion on the matter. In the end, we're on the same side, so this didn't matter that much. Love you HD!
Good comment, I love seeing throuough arguments on either side of an issue :) I believe I should've made myself more clear. I'm not saying layout is the same thing as decoration, but I'm saying that they are connected in lots of ways. Really this video was just born out of people asking me to decorate their layout without actually thinking about how it should be decoed ;D
hybrid agrees
hybrid agrees
hybrid agrees
Lunar disagrees
hybrid agrees
hybrid agrees
This is a very important thing that had to be said.
Glad it was done in such a well made video.
Production value of the video is a great btw. Script is a little weird at some points but it gets the points across well!
I hope people will watch this and learn from it. I think I learned from it too
What in particular is weird about the script? I wanna improve so any feedback I could get is appreciated :)
Thanks for the comment though bro!
fully agreed. i've always had these things in my mind when i create levels. great video!
I agree 100%
Layouts should always be planned, and help with the theme.
In silico gang btw
You here too?
@@tezvx yes
@@EREnder yeet
That is effort right there, good video man
*When you hear the Finnish accent*
Edit: Great vid btw, I think this sums up my gripes about megacollabs.
True
Affax what how did i found u here lol
Didnt know that u were a gd guy
that's a finnish accent?? jesus, i couldn't tell at all
@@somemagellanic When you're finnish you can easily tell.
@@olli9984 im finnish ya wanker
i still just build parts as i go. building layouts is a great way to lose motivation
This is a really well made and interesting video. It has a really professional feel, and you provided some really good points. I actually have been noticing a gap in the gameplay and deco of some recent levels which kind of bothered me but I didn't really realize it. This video made me realize.
The things you said make sense and seem really logical to me. I will definitely consider what you've said in this video in my future creating projects. Thanks for making this video. :)
not gonna lie, the transitions be slidin
Resolve literally does not support movement easing except for slide transitions
Okay, I'm still of those old creator whom build layout while decorate, and tbh, I think they should be separated but in a certain point, as such like building an extra long level, now it's maybe just me but I often think of what I want my level to be and how to make it feel like it following the song story, if I were building an long level then there is no problem of me building the layout and decorations at the same time, but if it's a extra long level, I will want to build the layout first to keep the idea there while I decorating, also here my opinion on specialize creator : that is just stupid tbh, creator should make his owned stuff and not be having role, like i can't make what other think they want to make, yea I can understand their idea but I don't know how to excuse them well like the layout creator want them to be, and most of the time layout creator don't know what they want how this part to look like and even if the decorator understand their idea, they will most of the time spending time fixing structure cause it not fit to their specialize structure making the megacollab even longer or even killing it
Or maybe they just do the layout thinking of the good look of the layout when instead the decorator changes a ton of things because it doesn't really fit the design, or the flow of the visuals, or whatever.
if youre making a solo level, it really depends on how you like to do it. i personally hate creating the layout and deco at the same time, while somebody else may love to create that way. it really just depends how you want to do it imo
This has helped me to become a better collab host, and a better level creator as a whole. Thank you for making this, it's a wake-up call that the community needs, especially now.
This is maybe the reason why I need half a year for four seconds of gameplay. I often have an idea for decoration in mind but I always think that I have to create gameplay first. This results in me trying to create original gameplay and after 1 hour of testing and maybe 26 new blocks I'm demotivated.
So I'll take your point into consideration and implement my idea for decoration now and not only when I've finished the layout. Seeing some deco progress might even further motivate me to continue creating.
Great vid and thank you for granting me this moment of realization.
I mean half a year for four seconds is exaggerating but I could see half a year for a whole layout, especially with XL layouts.
cant agree more. When i look back at my older layouts, i tend to question how i thought i was going to be able to deco them, so nowadays i use a simpler style instead.
Was going to complain about some things in this video but then you poked night rider and I now fully agree with all your points
14:35 This is what it sounds like, when HJfod actually is angry.
I feel so threatened by that ending
The title of the video is so true and it really attracted me. You said the right things. I'd also love to see a video about when is the perfect time to start decorating a layout (to avoid the level being unenjoyable and impossible to fix after it got fully decorated). People just underestimate the importance of the playtesting part of making levels so much.
the biggest issue is that a lot of gp creators things like click sync at the highest value and have no consideration of the visuals of the layout. I try to add visual support/effects in all my layouts to some degree at this point so that I and other people understand what the theme actually is so I don't have to write an essay explaining it to them.
still one of the best video essays in gd after over a year, really good job with a subject that is becoming more and more relevant
I feel that the whole motivation for this video is because of what he said at the end...
Very good video structuring, really good examples that actually made me understand your points better, simple but effective editing. Very cool video, keep it up
Yep. It pains me to see amazing layouts get decorated by amazing decorators and end up as worse than before. Just as important as the sync of gameplay is the visual sync, and if gameplay and decoration focus on different music sync the part as a whole can often end up having no sync at all.
This is the main reason I do not participate in collabs. It's often hard to mix your ideas with others especially if you already have a fully-fledged design made up in your mind. You just don't know if you can rely on your decorator to follow up your idea
HJfod is back to inform people with his Finnish accent and his well edited videos.
I agree with that comment from Viprin. I have a level I made called 'Unnamed Challenge' which is 1.0-styled, but I still put in time to add effects and a bg to it to make it look good.
I agree with what you said, but with one exception. There are some cases where a level would benefit from having someone else build a layout first and then giving it to someone to decorate. By that I mean a simple thing, there are some great creators that just can't make good gameplay. Best example is probably Serponge
I know that some creators can't make gameplay, after all I did make a level that has good deco but infamously cancerous gameplay ;D
@@HJfod Yeah, noticed that while I practiced it lol. I'd say if a creator knows that they aren't that good at some part of level making, they should find someone who is good at that thing and try to work together. As you said in the video though, communication is key
no wonder why I never finish my levels...
great video man ill keep this in mind from now on :D
I agree. Communication between the layout and decoration is essential to a successful lvl. Also yea, in an ideal world, we wouldn’t need layout creators, but unfortunately not all decorators now know how to make great gameplay. Everything needs to fit into place for the sake of cohesion, which imo is more important than great deco or gameplay as I feel it contributes more to the overall experience of a lvl than those desperate elements. That’s also why megacollabs are usually seen as worse than solos.
this is a very informative video, and this will make it easier for me to make levels from now on
Excellent video. I feel like we could all create infinitely better levels with this advice.
Great video HJFod
Also,
To take the example of collabs, They are just a succession of independent parts that aren't always related, even when there's a theme. It often lacks a certain consistency either in terms of the gameplay but also the decoration which from one part to another is more or less worked. I can understand that it can be a showcase representing the different building skills of each members, but we need more levels with a real desire to offer a unique experience throughout its duration like a solo level.
I would like to share my way of building a collab :
Imo, separating each part is important, to focus as much as possible on each element (gameplay, design, effect, art...) BUT instead of assigning a part to a single member, all members should actively participate in each part.
I can also help with a possible video on the importance of art making in a level, and explain why it's boring how we (art makers) are not respected as other creators. Thank you :)
- Fruck.
This idea is epic
AB stands for all-build? I'm pretty sure the method was named after RyanAB, who came up with the idea.
Oh wait it stands for that? I've always thought it stood for All-Build, but I mean your explanation makes sense too.
@@HJfod Yup, here's an old video of him explaining how it works. ua-cam.com/video/WIRRouc1GLQ/v-deo.html
i think building a layout and structuring it in a way that plans for deco is the way to go personally
This isn't even a video anymore, this is a full (short) movie
Great video. 100% agree with your points. Fantastic editing and great script writing. My only criticism is to edit out unnecessary breathing in your voice overs, and rework some of the humor parts. The in silico joke fell flat imo, but the titanic one was great. Great video otherwise.
The In Silico joke is a reference to the fact that I have not made a single commentary video in the past year which hasn't mentioned In Silico
@@HJfod ah I see! Still it was a little to loud for me personally, but that's a different thing!
Never thought about this, thanks for bringing it up
today i agree with your points fod, as a gameplay creator i'm upset of megacollab and the lack of communication from decorators, most of the megacollab i've joined gameplay maker where there but decorator absent, recently i've stopped being in megacollabs and started to learn decoration for my solo level, another things that triggers me really hard is that the majority of gameplay maker today makes small parts to show their level of creation but nether a full solo project or gameplay that has a length of 1 min or even more, which is stupid because showing a small part of a gameplay on a full music doesn't say what you are capable of building on a full music to represent the song.
ho and also another point that upset me really hard in megacollabs today is standards, in the french community where i am ho boy it's so high that it's impossible for gameplay creator and decorator to be at the same level, the majority of megacollab i've joined are so slow to be build, even some of them are forgotten.
Even on youtube there's no full detailed guide for decoration, at all what the fuck it should be important for beginners no ?
Ridiculously good video as always
I see your point. However I am not a person who cares about gameplay and deco being separate for megacollabs. I’m a megacollab host myself and I like getting creators that excel in gameplay and deco go get an amazing level. It just requires a lot of planning. The layout is almost done and I did a few changes to the level before it was too late. People having a hard time decorating a gameplay part that is not theirs depends on the gameplay creator. Creators that make gameplay styles such as flow, are much easier to decorate. But then you have hawkyre who makes lots of offgrid gameplay because of his creativity. I’m a person who likes flow gameplay so decorators will have a much easier time decorating. Ocular miracle has a few weird gameplay parts that looked really hard to deco, so I get that. But for me I like having high quality gameplay and deco. Levels like zodiac have decent deco but very boring and annoying gameplay because the creators in that level do not excel in gameplay. But then levels like adrenaline by wapon77 has both gameplay and decorators that excel in their fields. And the level looks pretty good although the theme is a bit inconsistent but not that big of a deal for me.
If you have sufficient planning and your gp creators and decorators are all on the same page, then it definitely can work. My point was that when there isn't communication, then it likely won't work.
HJfod oh yeah I totally agree with that. I wouldn’t want my mc to end up like night rider. Not saying the level is bad but it was poorly planned.
i still haven't properly finished a level since 2017, or arguably 2014
He edits the video like it’s a theory or a mystery of some sort
I literally couldn't agree more
ive been thinking about this for a while glad someone made something about it
This man unironically used the word epic
umm yeah..?
HJfod lol
0:00 100k objects already confirmed
How dare you show "From the Ashes" when you haven't even finished the layout.
am gamer i do what i want 😎
This is why people give Fufafac his own part to work with. He does the gameplay and deco
Agree on everything you said. What a historian. And your video is a hit!
This is a comment created before 50 views, like if you're here before 100K views.
nice username
oh trust me i think ahead and know what i want the level to look like...but I'm not good enough to do what I want or I can't get other's to help bc they only join collabs that are relevant
Nice video, really enjoyed it :D
Finally a new video!!!
I’ve never liked how people make themed levels with a layout that doesn’t even fit the theme in the first place
I think so many people forget to match the level they are making to it’s song. To me, everything about creating a level stems from the song. If the layout fits the song’s feel, then decorating actually becomes easier.
*Also separate structures best structures*
Thanks for the tutorial.
Is it okay to have only one decorator for the entire collab level? (cuz the the theme of the level will be consistent)
Of course it's ok. I've been thinking of getting other people to do gameplay for my levels to ensure that my stuff is fun to play, but the problem is that I often have very specific ideas and requirements of what I absolutely want to be in a level, so getting creators who don't get annoyed by endless requests is hard :)
@@HJfod yep it's hard as always
@@HJfod I could try to help
@@HJfod My demon difficulty gameplay is just iffy
I build deco first, and then I plan and make the gameplay to fit the deco. I’m not very good at gameplay though.
i really think you can do a layout and decorate separately and do it well if you have proper communication about the theming the decorator wants and which types of structures not to use.
Yes. My point was that there often isn't enough communication, which is when it all goes to shit. If there is communication, then there's no problem.
@@HJfod ah i must have not understood that point very well, my bad.
This is a very good video that addresses big problems with the community in how megacollabs are handled, however, I'm not quite sure if I fully agree with you on everything.
I definitely do understand, as both a decorator and a creator who often makes gameplay, the problems the video presents but the underlying issue between them is how most of these megacollabs were formed to begin with and the complete lack of communication.
Just as a decorator can struggle with making good gameplay, a layout creator also struggles with making good decoration. Communication is something taken very lightly in most collabs including the examples you have shown. There was plans on Ocular Miracle being a space collab but that was long decided after the layout process and even then it isn't clearly realized. Night Rider was planned to be designed as a cyberpunk level but that idea was never properly communicated to the layout creators nor was their skill or style even fit for that. There are only those exceptionally few megacollabs that actually take into account both the gameplay and the decorator together that make them special.
I strongly believe that, despite these so-called "gameplay creators" trying to make a name for themselves by getting every fundamental down to a precise level from sync to transitions, decorators will always be better at creating gameplay that is more interesting and more importantly, actually original as they themselves have complete control as to what their vision shows.
As for your thoughts on Aleph 0 and xo, I don't believe they are neither layouts nor a "finished" level but rather a mix of both. They are layouts in the sense that, even if they would definitely be hard to make proper decoration for, they are only held together by effects which I myself wouldn't really qualify it as a finished level the same way I would treat marwec's layouts, which have a ton of flashy effects with a glow overlay that moves with you, as a layout. But I also treat them as a level in the sense that, the 1.0 aspect is deliberately used to portray their ideas. The only reason why I don't treat them as a full level is because that, even if the 1.0 look works with the aesthetic, it doesn't really feel like it was fully realized either because the creator didn't have the ideas to bring out the feel to it's fullest or was simply unable to do so due to other factors such as time and motivation.
oh shit this is going cinematic
really solid video❤️
1:21 HACKER?
BTW I LOVE YOU
Agreed I build when I make the layout I deco it and if I make layouts I get uninspired
This is what spanish people would call "If Ironman was based"
I dont plan to decorate. My structures can however i want
whats the level in 0:28
My part in Light It Up by TNC
what level is that? 8:36
Light It Up by TNC (my part)
@@HJfod Ty!
Cool part tho ;)
I like your Style
Bro you right
wow, I thought I was a bad creator for making gameplay as I make deco, but I guess not
1:10 what doesn’t have a fundamental flaw when not done right lol
I do see your validity in integrating layout and decoration. But because the opposite created a division between decorators and layout makers, solving this issue wouldn't be easy. Layout makers can exist because they suck at decorating, or perhaps they just like making gameplay. You can't really *force* layout makers to become ingenious decorators. So I think this is one big issue to solving the division.
i dont agree cause if you deco while youre building a layout, its impossible to playtest it because you have to wait the entire thing to load just for a single test, this is true btw i made this same thing on my levels and quitted it and deleted my level because the layout is so buggy from the way i do, yeah not a good idea depending on how bad your device is
What are the fundamentals of good levels?
The only universal trait that all levels generally considered good share is consistency :D
what is the level at 4:03?
Although I think that making gameplay first in a megacollab is very important to making consistent gameplay (this mostly applies to extreme demons) I agree with your most of your points, and I’d also like to say that a lot of cinematic aspects that can be added with properly paced gameplay gets lost when doing a layout prior to decorating. Anyways, this was a great video dude, I enjoyed it! :3
Structures arent part of gameplay. They are more like finishing touches to your layout. In megacollabs, the decorator can change the structures to their liking so, they arent really a problem. Imo people should focus on making the gameplay actually good first, and then move on to add structures and stuff to make the layout look cool.
never said they were not important but, its better to focus on the gameplay rather than making your layout look cool. If you focus too much on visuals, this can lead to making your gameplay bad.
A few people have already made this point and I have to agree, I made a mistake there. In retrospect, I should've made it clear what I meant by my point on structuring. Yes, structuring can be altered, but the part of a structure that's part of the gameplay, i.e. the top of a pillar or a slope the player is supposed to slide on etc. can not be altered in decoration without altering the gameplay; since that's literally what changing gameplay is about.
Also, I really should've made points like that some decoration styles only work with non-slopey gameplay where each structure is an odd number in width and pointed upwards. For example, the UFO part's deco in Zenith requires pillars to work and thus also needs to have gameplay that doesn't have long horizontal rows of blocks for the player to stand on top of as that would not be feasible with the established style.
@@HJfod alright thanks fur ckearing that up
quality content
I haven't watched the video yet
But, sorry Kkkkkkk
when he said "spazeeeyyyy"
i felt that
not tryna be rude tho i just love your accent-
Timestamp?
M A N I X by KrmaL
Lol
HJfod What happened to Soundwave? will you finish creating it? you will upload it
soundwave's been dead for almost 2 years
@@HJfod :( How sad, I wanted to play it :'(
thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you
jesus
This aged well. :) lol
I feel like I'm watching a LEMMiNO video
My channel is basically modelled after his content :P
The bonicZ agrees
Oh boy, here we go.
Just want to get this out of the way first, the video is SUPER well done, congrats (always expecting the best from you)! But, of course, you touched on a thing that most will have a different opinion on, so here I am. For starters, layouts and decorations are not one of the same and should never be, and the example you gave of the house wasn't a good one.
Layouts are, in their essence, the foundation of a level. Sure, you can say that and it is completely right, but what you missed was that layouting is the art of making gameplay, not just the foundation of decoration. As one of the three pillars that make a level a level (the other 2 being decoration and effects, that one will take to much to explain and doesn't really matter for my argument right now) gameplay should not be the same as decoration. That doesn't even make sense, like, would you say that in a movie both imagery and sound design are the same thing, just because they together form a new thing? Of course not. Just like gameplay and decorations. Of course, what you said layout, and you defined it your way, which is not intirely correct in my eyes.
Now, about the level Aleph-0, it isn't decorated, at all, our not "at all", but the focus is not decoration in the slitest. Just like Viprin said, it's an effects level. Here is where it get interesting: remember when I talked about the 3 main pillars of a level? Well, Aleph-0 uses 2 of them, gameplay and effects (Yes, I lied about the effects thing not being important to my argument), but not the decoration. As of 2.0, decoration and effects became 2 different thing that accomplish different reactions. Why am I saying this? Because it's true. Here's a simple saying to know while creating in GD: "You can have 2 of the main ingredients and still have the dish served, but if you add another ingredient it will taste even better. But have just one and it will just taste like that one ingredient. Some people might want it, but most want something more complex."
I dunno what to expand on more, everything you said apart from what I already mentioned fit my idea of layout, and sorry for making you read all of this, but I just wanted to express my opinion on the matter. In the end, we're on the same side, so this didn't matter that much. Love you HD!
Good comment, I love seeing throuough arguments on either side of an issue :)
I believe I should've made myself more clear. I'm not saying layout is the same thing as decoration, but I'm saying that they are connected in lots of ways. Really this video was just born out of people asking me to decorate their layout without actually thinking about how it should be decoed ;D
You mean layouts and decoration should not be *CREATED* separately
Perfect
what if you first made deco and then made gameplay O_O
thanks : )
This is why i dont like collabs
WHY DO YUU KEEP USING NOCLIP CLIPS ITS REALLY TRIGGERING ME
what's wrong with noclip?
Make gameplay first, and make sure it won’t influence or change the gameplay
I just watched a movie
I agree
Ok I’m like a minute in and Jesus Christ there are way too many push transitions holy fuck
Resolve does not support movement easing, so that's what I've resorted to.
@@HJfod you don't need a new clip every 2 seconds, keep the transitions but just use less clips
Can you layout my decoration for me?
wow you really sound pissed by this
also cool video
i am pissed by this
i mean i can understand you tbf
Geometry dash civil rights movement
Dude u remind me of the guy from project nightfall but gd edition