I didn't really understand why Tuvok had so much trouble understanding the Maquis crewmembers. I mean, he was literally one of them, embedded as a spy on the Maquis ship for an extended time. It would have made more sense if they showed animosity for his deception, but him not being able to relate to them made no sense at all.
Except they absolutely did sacrifice a ship like Voyager. Better, even. They captured the Defiant, and wasted it on a suicide run, rather than stashing it away in the Badlands and using it for the hit and fade attacks it would have been terrifyingly good at. A lot of the situations where the Maquis are encountered suggested there was a serious problem with over-romanticizing in the organization. Thomas Riker didn't help things with his dramatic hijacking of the Defiant and his suicide charge into Cardassian Space with it, nor Michael Eddington's playing at being Robin Hood. The Maquis were terrorists who had convinced themselves they were Gentlemen Thieves and Merry Men. 'Peace at any cost'. As Quark pointed out to them, that was dangerous thinking, especially when peace could be bought at a much lower price if they'd only compromise and negotiate.
Mr Dalby's mistake is not wanting to try again after failing merely once. If he truly wanted to improve he'd ask Tuvok for a doo-over in order to learn more, instead of getting angry and demanding to be dismissed like an agitated child. He'll never become a commanding officer let alone a captain with that attitude.
That would require him to have self-analysis and introspection, which as a narcissist would invite psychic trauma. Which is why they tend to fake it till they make it, blame shift, make themselves look good while making others look poor. His 'mistake' here versus other narcissists was not making the others make mistakes or point out their flaws to not have to explore his own. It's sad but this is how some people function. tbh I find narcissists pathetic but they're often very successful people because they learn these horrible traits early and they work. They never even contemplate that the pain they're going through is called growth. They can't abandon those parts of themselves we do away with. They simply acquire the praise, attention and power given to them by others as change. Letting those poor traits vanish through entropy or shifting it onto others through projection. This is what he did at the end there when Tuvok told him retreat was a possible strategy. Instead of going "Ah, no I didn't think of that. I learned something." he immediately thought Tuvok was establishing his own superiority, and that the entire thing was rigged to only have one solution to point out a failing of Tuvok's design. It's freaking disgusting isn't it?
@@Vespyr_ Yup, and today with what went on with the Afghanistan 'war & withdrawl', it seems we have a whole Military full of Top Brass that are exactly like what you had described, to a T, and yes, its very sad and disgusting.
@@NaesGalaxy Understandable. Voyager's command made the decision to take an entire vessel with its crew into a wormhole leaving them stranded on the other side of the galaxy. I'd be pissed too if I was a crewmember of Janeway. However. because of the increased risk and likelihood of me being put in a role of command and leadership is vastly increased. I'd want to be prepared the best I can. especially considering it's high amounts of Borg territory.
@@Vespyr_ the problem with narcissists is that they're sad, insecure people DESPERATE to fit in and be liked and get attention. This almost always makes them arrogant, which means they ALWAYS SUFFER HEAVILY from the Dunning Kruger effect. Their inability to deal with the reality that they're not the chit and that they're not "cool" or whatever they want to be makes them COMPLETELY ignorant of just how ignorant and incapable they are, and they end up having their massive egos born out of deep insecurity take over, making them highly arrogant. They're always irrational and unable to take criticism. I don't think Dalby is like this. I don't think he fits the bill of today's narcissists who are literally everywhere maybe even 99% of the population and found all over tik tok and youtube channels, Dalby had his wife raped and killed by cardassians. He had a pretty bad life and had to fight to survive. He never had the luxury to sit and contemplate philosophy, or tactics. An attack on his method by tuvok is like an attack to every bad thing he's gone through. So Dalby genuinely is "arrogant" only as a defense mechanism to hide an immense amount of pain. However, the ignorant Dunning Kruger effect mor0n gen z/late millennials/even adults of today found all over chit tok and youtube and Twitter and Instagram, almost definitely NEVER had a bad life. They were coddled and spoiled by mommy and daddy all their lives. Because of this, they arrogantly think they're so "perfect" and "amazing", that they arrogantly felt like they never had to learn or understand anything, not the world, not proper social dynamics and manners, not how to care for others. Every insecure idi0t today is running around faking confidence, delusionally thinking they're the "greatest" whose absolutely disgusting chit doesn't stink, and theyre too arrogant and stupid due to never having spent 1 day thinking or contemplating reality to realize just how talentless, ignorant, unlikeable, insecure, and inexperienced and unaware they are. They're too stupid and arrogant to see they're subconsciously behaving like they're the "king" of everything as a unconscious defense against their MASSIVE amounts of insecurity. They live in a constant state of delusion, always thinking they're so great and that everyone loves them, when in reality, they are literally 1 of billions of similar people and literally are similar to everyone around them and are competing with their own chitty fake friends everyday to see who's the most delusional and arrogant. I must admit I was like this too as a teen and young adult. But by the time I hit 22, I was married already because luckily I had far more experience in life and financial ability to be able to have them, and was well traveled and learned alot. Maybe here in America or similar western countries insecure behavior and arrogance is seen as "power" and "strength", (particularly because everyone here is arrogant and delusional and ignorant and they can't afford to dislike these disgusting traits since they'd end up hating themselves, their friends, and their family as well), however when I visited other countries. It's clear people could easily see through the charade. They laugh at peolle like this. So I had to adjust. And over the years, I've learned to Control my emotions more and be more logical. I've reached a point now where I have no greedy need to have more money or power than others. I have no sexual lust anymore (heck I prefer the companionship of a loved one mostly while 40 year Olds today have never grown up and constantly just want to fk random females to feel better about themselves even though they're ultimately deluding themselves and making their lives worse), I don't lie anymore, I no longer am selfish, in fact I DESPISE selfishness. I care for people, but I'm also not fake, and I'll call out whatever I see someone do that is wrong or harms any life form human or not. I also became vegan because how we treat sentient life on earth is unacceptable. And much more. For a time, I thought I had become some "weak", "potentless" person. I wanted to force myself to become like I was, constantly thinking I'm confident, and acting like a douchebag, because I thought it brought me success. And it did, but in all the wrong ways, and because I probablt dealt with like minded people. Now, I'd never want to go back to how I was. In fact I find it repulsive. Being honest with oneself and truthful and willing to face reality daily, has truly made me be at peace with myself. When I was like 20, I'd constantly try to plot and scheme to sleep with women, I thought I was so great because I would succeed at a far higher rate than most. Today, I no longer care for such things, and my past self would think that my present self definitely has no skills to attract anyone. But that's entirely wrong. Back then I had to try hard and keep pushing to get the one thing I was after from women. Today, I don't even try or think about it. I just want to enjoy the company and if I don't like someone I tell them and leave, but when I do, I don't even have to try like I used to. I'm not worried. I already know we will both be attracted to each other, and I know she will want me intimately too, whereas in the past I was worried and didn't know because I never tried to understand them or focus on them. It seems impossible I know, but being honest, caring, not selfish, not arrogant, took my success rate up from like 50% up to 95%. Oh and of course. My past arrogant delusional self wrecked my marriage. I will never forgive my past self for that. I keep wishing I could go back and get a second chance. I imagine how much more my wife would love me and be attracted to me if she had known the person I am now. But it's too late. My previous ignorance led to stupidity and arrogance which ruined the best thing That happened in my life. It made me jaded, but also made me learn how reality really is. Now I can't stand arrogant people anymore, and whenever one is around me acting that way, they suddenly feel this strong impulse of feeling insecure and afraid around me. They know their BS won't work with me, and every arrogant delusional person I meet now, tries very hard to be as polite and appropriate as possible near me fearing I'll let them know I see right through them and shatter their delusion, and they want to get away as fast as possible as to not have their false reality come crashing down on them. It's kind of funny.
This wasnt a no-win situation, the issue was they didnt learn that a simple Tactical withdrawl while calling for reinforcements would have been more appropriate in that situation, seeing that as the 'acting Captain' noted that they were outgunned, a tactical withdrawl and possible call for backup would be sound tactical advice.
It would have been the best option i agree but i was also thinking why did they never attempt to use one of the ships as a shield and manuver around it. The only thing they seemed to do is move around in the same area to evade they didnt attempt to get into their blond spots or anything more then dance around and shoot and that might work in call of duty but come on these weapons lock on
@@SuperJhon360 Shields basically surround the entire Romulan ship, just as their sensors do as well, there are no 'blind spots' on a Romulan warbird. The best thing the crew SHOULD have done, was instead of approaching the Ferengi freighter, they should have sent a probe to determine if the ensign's concerns were correct or not, then proceed from there, once the Romulan Warbird appeared, they should have known straight from the get-go to back off, call for support and/or retreat.
A quote: "To know when to retreat and to dare to do it." The Duke of Wellington, when asked for his opinion on the best test of greatness in a general, quoted in 'William Fraser, Words on Wellington, 1889'
Quote: "When a battle is lost, the strength of the army is broken - its moral even more than its physical strength. A second battle without the help of new and favorable factors would mean outright defeat, perhaps even absolute destruction. That is a military axiom. It is in the nature of things that a retreat should be continued until the balance of power is reestablished - whether by means of reinforcements or the cover of strong fortresses or major natural obstacles or the overextension of the enemy." - Major general Carl Von Clasuewitz, On War, 4.13, 1832
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." - Thucydides, The History of the Peloponnesian War, c. 404 BC
Mr. Cho…Signal the three Klingon ships to decloake, hail the romulans again. Tuvok: 🤨 Simulation: decloaking 3 Klingon warbirds, armed and ready Tuvok: this Simulation is….most unusual.
The one in command may have had command experience but he is no starship Captain. A lone Intrepid class starship would be hard pressed to match a D'Deridex class Romulan Warbird much less two of them. Retreating is not cowardice in most scenarios. Oh and to quote James T. Kirk, "I don't believe in a no win scenario." Winning doesn't necessarily mean defeating the enemy. Winning can also mean keeping your ship intact and your crew alive.
A recurring thing in Voyager that they do mention time and again. That ultimately the Voyager is alone, without support, in unknown space, etc. Preserving the ship and its crew is the number one priority over anything else. There's no starbase to repair at. There's no friendly ship that might come by to gather up survivors if you have to abandon ship, etc. Like the scenario was (barring Romulans) something that was very real for the crew at that time. They COULD get jumped at any time by a superior enemy and needed to know how to react. To protect the ship and everyone on board instead of "going out phasers firing" or any machismo. It really made the Maquis look like utter dumbasses and Tuvok being framed as someone that had to, by the episode end "Meet them halfway" as taking up some idiot traits as well.
"Did the possibility of retreat, not occur to you?" Well Tuvok, since just one of those ships can be a match for the Enterprise, and you put us up against two of them, who would blow us up by the time we got to a point we could run away, no it didn't.
Which is exactly why retreat was the first thing that entered my mind the moment the FIRST one decloaked. Those things are twice the size of a Galaxy class, *each*. The commander had more than enough time to say, "Helm, get us out of here. Maximum warp" If they had died before that command could even have a chance to be executed, I'd agree with you, but it looked to me like they had enough time to get away.
@@michaelspence2508 It depends on how close they were to a large gravity-generating body, like a planet or asteroid. If they had to clear the system first (to avoid wormhole effects and such), they would've been stuck at impulse and would have still been screwed. But if it was pretty much empty space and they could have gone to warp immediately, then Tuvok was spot-on.
@@josephmassaro I guess since it was in the way of the task/duty/plan they were trying to fulfill they saw that as cowardice (leaving alleged civilians behind) instead of pragmatism. When they were Maquis, hitting and running was an integral part of the plan since the beginning and how they kept their forces, not just something to save their skins, but you are right, people who are basically former guerrilas probably should be much more flexible than they are being.
Actually, that was the point. This entire course that Tuvok was trying to train them in was get them familiar with the Starfleet mentality and protocols on board ship. The Maquis way was much more freedom fighter based, but would work very little in an actual quasi-military mindset. The guns blazing, while heroic in someway, would’ve caused that group the ship, and their lives. Tuvok was right in trying to teach them that sometimes, a tactical retreat is the best option. I do understand your stance about run and gun mentalities, and you would be right, but in this specific case, it seemed like Dalby is too ready to go down in a heroic manner. Knowing his reason for joining the Maquis, it explains things. But as you can see, it still would get his people killed, and the ship destroyed. Remember when Will Riker said to Deanna Troy when she was taking the bridge officer’s test: his responsibility is to the ship. Sometimes that means ordering someone to their death, and sometimes that means retreating from a tactically unsound situation. In both situations, many more lives were saved by those actions.
@@Agent_1701-D I think you miss my point. The maquis would understand the advantage of a retreat. "Those who fight and run away, live to fight another day." Their contrary behavior was purely a plot contrivance for the episode.
I get what they were trying to do but this episode falls flat for me on so many levels. Tuvok has taught hundreds if not thousands of students before. You mean to tell me he had no idea how to deal with difficult students? Then there's the fact that he was a spy on a Maquis ship so he knows those people aren't exactly the Alpha quadrant's best and brightest and he should know how to deal with them properly. It would've been more convincing if they had Harry Kim try to train them since he's been bucking for a promotion so badly.
Spock's beard, these are four childish adults! I've always been immature for my age, and even I have never been so crass to a trainer after the very first lesson. And how do former Maquis not know the basics of surviving a battle?
If the holodeck is simulating where you are standing and what is solid then having that solid ground shake and simulate the same kind of effects that would happen if they were being attacked at least what was always shown on the show then it would give the same results.
No, that's not the same situation at all; there was actually something at stake there that was worth the sacrifice. Defending a whole colony is absolutely worth the sacrifice of one ship, not to mention that the Enterprise's aid against the Romulan attack is what solidified the Federation-Klingon peace and actually made them allies, rather than their relationship eventually deteriorating to all-out war as we saw in Yesterday's Enterprise (though of course they couldn't have known at the time how far-reaching their actions would be). In this simulation, they weren't fighting some high stakes war or anything like that, they were just answering a distress call and got ambushed. Or I should say, a supposed distress call, because they couldn't even be sure there was any ship in distress and that it wasn't just a Romulan trap all along.
The Romulans that attacked Narendra III most likely came with one ship uncloaked and three cloaked. Garrett and the Enterprise-C likely engaged them noting that it was probably an even fight at the time, but were likely surprised to see three more Warbirds, hence the heavy damage and the torpedo fire that caused the temporal rift to form. Also, they were coming to the aid of a Klingon outpost as the final peace treaty was being discussed. Seeing as that they were already allies in a way due to the evacuation of the Klingon homeworld, the Enterprise engaging threat forces to defend such an outpost solidified that trust between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, leading to the eventual Khitomer Accords.
@@Locutus494 tactically it would've been preferable to retreat and call reinforcements. This would also have been more likely to make the Romulans retreat, as they would now have an unknown amount of time until being engaged by potentially multiple Starfleet ships, as opposed to destroying the Enterprise which likely delayed the communication and allowed them to destroy the colony with impunity. In hindsight the loss of the vessel had a good diplomatic outcome but that was purely incidental. Captain Garrett didn't deliberately sacrifice her ship as a diplomatic effort.
@@Agent_1701-D engaging Romulans with a single ship should always be done with caution for this reason. The correct protocol would be to go to red alert as soon as one ship appears, attempt hailing, return fire if fired upon, and immediately retreat if more enemy ships appear, as Tuvok suggests here.
@@stonem0013 Retreat?! Huh? If you retreat, you're just allowing the Romulans to massacre the outpost with impunity. That would be exactly what they want; they're not going to run away because they're unchallenged... 🤦♂️
Maquis would know better than to fight a superior foe head on. They were taking on galor cruisers by ambush tactics using whatever they had available including raw numbers via ambush. While evading did nothing the turn and suicide is more starfleet than maquis (at least for defending legitimate distress signals) for starfleet trains up (mostly) dogmatic-idealists not officers that realise if your ship goes boom so do all the other people you just rescued before that last ship takes a plot-derived hit to its engines/FTL.
Yes it does. Red alert automatically activities the shields, and arms the weapons. Yellow alert automatically activities the shields and puts people on alert to head to battle stations.
God I despise Tuvoc, he is such a condescending pric, even for a Vulcan. He even treats his 'friends' with nothing but contempt.. Serving under him would be utter hell.
why? because he didnt molycoddle them, my guess is in a real world military, if enlisted personell were to talk to an officer like this lot did, they would be in a world of trouble
They showed in a different episode where he takes command permanently after Janeway and Chakotay are left on a planet due to an incurable virus. The crew was ready to mutiny against him.
Tuvok: "Holodeck, simulate the bridge of the Voyager."
*Holodeck does as it was told*
Tuvok: "I recreated the bridge of the Voyager."
Tuvok is an A.I. Artist.
@@lizzychrome7630 Technically, all holodeck artists are.
Tuvok wasn't even giving them a hard time at all.
I didn't really understand why Tuvok had so much trouble understanding the Maquis crewmembers. I mean, he was literally one of them, embedded as a spy on the Maquis ship for an extended time. It would have made more sense if they showed animosity for his deception, but him not being able to relate to them made no sense at all.
Tuvok is Vulcan. Being able to relate to anyone not motivated by logic has always been a problem for them.
Even the Enterprise D under Picard wouldn't try to take on two warbirds!
he would have 3 klingons decloaked
@@ericcartman6376 Indeed!
@@ericcartman6376 Agreed. If he had the backup, he would try. But if he didn’t, then retreat is a sound alternative.
@@Agent_1701-D And he did retreat in "Data's Day".
Even as Marquee sacrificing a ship like Voyager wouldn't have made sense. Make a strategic retreat and live to fight the Cardassians another day.
Except they absolutely did sacrifice a ship like Voyager. Better, even. They captured the Defiant, and wasted it on a suicide run, rather than stashing it away in the Badlands and using it for the hit and fade attacks it would have been terrifyingly good at. A lot of the situations where the Maquis are encountered suggested there was a serious problem with over-romanticizing in the organization. Thomas Riker didn't help things with his dramatic hijacking of the Defiant and his suicide charge into Cardassian Space with it, nor Michael Eddington's playing at being Robin Hood. The Maquis were terrorists who had convinced themselves they were Gentlemen Thieves and Merry Men. 'Peace at any cost'. As Quark pointed out to them, that was dangerous thinking, especially when peace could be bought at a much lower price if they'd only compromise and negotiate.
Maquis*
Mr Dalby's mistake is not wanting to try again after failing merely once. If he truly wanted to improve he'd ask Tuvok for a doo-over in order to learn more, instead of getting angry and demanding to be dismissed like an agitated child. He'll never become a commanding officer let alone a captain with that attitude.
A Captain is to be obeyed when orders given, but a captain also must LISTEN to his subordinates as well.
That would require him to have self-analysis and introspection, which as a narcissist would invite psychic trauma. Which is why they tend to fake it till they make it, blame shift, make themselves look good while making others look poor. His 'mistake' here versus other narcissists was not making the others make mistakes or point out their flaws to not have to explore his own. It's sad but this is how some people function.
tbh I find narcissists pathetic but they're often very successful people because they learn these horrible traits early and they work. They never even contemplate that the pain they're going through is called growth. They can't abandon those parts of themselves we do away with. They simply acquire the praise, attention and power given to them by others as change. Letting those poor traits vanish through entropy or shifting it onto others through projection.
This is what he did at the end there when Tuvok told him retreat was a possible strategy. Instead of going "Ah, no I didn't think of that. I learned something." he immediately thought Tuvok was establishing his own superiority, and that the entire thing was rigged to only have one solution to point out a failing of Tuvok's design. It's freaking disgusting isn't it?
@@Vespyr_ Yup, and today with what went on with the Afghanistan 'war & withdrawl', it seems we have a whole Military full of Top Brass that are exactly like what you had described, to a T, and yes, its very sad and disgusting.
@@NaesGalaxy Understandable. Voyager's command made the decision to take an entire vessel with its crew into a wormhole leaving them stranded on the other side of the galaxy. I'd be pissed too if I was a crewmember of Janeway. However. because of the increased risk and likelihood of me being put in a role of command and leadership is vastly increased. I'd want to be prepared the best I can. especially considering it's high amounts of Borg territory.
@@Vespyr_ the problem with narcissists is that they're sad, insecure people DESPERATE to fit in and be liked and get attention. This almost always makes them arrogant, which means they ALWAYS SUFFER HEAVILY from the Dunning Kruger effect. Their inability to deal with the reality that they're not the chit and that they're not "cool" or whatever they want to be makes them COMPLETELY ignorant of just how ignorant and incapable they are, and they end up having their massive egos born out of deep insecurity take over, making them highly arrogant. They're always irrational and unable to take criticism. I don't think Dalby is like this. I don't think he fits the bill of today's narcissists who are literally everywhere maybe even 99% of the population and found all over tik tok and youtube channels, Dalby had his wife raped and killed by cardassians. He had a pretty bad life and had to fight to survive. He never had the luxury to sit and contemplate philosophy, or tactics. An attack on his method by tuvok is like an attack to every bad thing he's gone through. So Dalby genuinely is "arrogant" only as a defense mechanism to hide an immense amount of pain.
However, the ignorant Dunning Kruger effect mor0n gen z/late millennials/even adults of today found all over chit tok and youtube and Twitter and Instagram, almost definitely NEVER had a bad life. They were coddled and spoiled by mommy and daddy all their lives. Because of this, they arrogantly think they're so "perfect" and "amazing", that they arrogantly felt like they never had to learn or understand anything, not the world, not proper social dynamics and manners, not how to care for others. Every insecure idi0t today is running around faking confidence, delusionally thinking they're the "greatest" whose absolutely disgusting chit doesn't stink, and theyre too arrogant and stupid due to never having spent 1 day thinking or contemplating reality to realize just how talentless, ignorant, unlikeable, insecure, and inexperienced and unaware they are. They're too stupid and arrogant to see they're subconsciously behaving like they're the "king" of everything as a unconscious defense against their MASSIVE amounts of insecurity. They live in a constant state of delusion, always thinking they're so great and that everyone loves them, when in reality, they are literally 1 of billions of similar people and literally are similar to everyone around them and are competing with their own chitty fake friends everyday to see who's the most delusional and arrogant. I must admit I was like this too as a teen and young adult. But by the time I hit 22, I was married already because luckily I had far more experience in life and financial ability to be able to have them, and was well traveled and learned alot. Maybe here in America or similar western countries insecure behavior and arrogance is seen as "power" and "strength", (particularly because everyone here is arrogant and delusional and ignorant and they can't afford to dislike these disgusting traits since they'd end up hating themselves, their friends, and their family as well), however when I visited other countries. It's clear people could easily see through the charade. They laugh at peolle like this. So I had to adjust. And over the years, I've learned to Control my emotions more and be more logical. I've reached a point now where I have no greedy need to have more money or power than others. I have no sexual lust anymore (heck I prefer the companionship of a loved one mostly while 40 year Olds today have never grown up and constantly just want to fk random females to feel better about themselves even though they're ultimately deluding themselves and making their lives worse), I don't lie anymore, I no longer am selfish, in fact I DESPISE selfishness. I care for people, but I'm also not fake, and I'll call out whatever I see someone do that is wrong or harms any life form human or not. I also became vegan because how we treat sentient life on earth is unacceptable. And much more. For a time, I thought I had become some "weak", "potentless" person. I wanted to force myself to become like I was, constantly thinking I'm confident, and acting like a douchebag, because I thought it brought me success. And it did, but in all the wrong ways, and because I probablt dealt with like minded people. Now, I'd never want to go back to how I was. In fact I find it repulsive. Being honest with oneself and truthful and willing to face reality daily, has truly made me be at peace with myself. When I was like 20, I'd constantly try to plot and scheme to sleep with women, I thought I was so great because I would succeed at a far higher rate than most. Today, I no longer care for such things, and my past self would think that my present self definitely has no skills to attract anyone. But that's entirely wrong. Back then I had to try hard and keep pushing to get the one thing I was after from women. Today, I don't even try or think about it. I just want to enjoy the company and if I don't like someone I tell them and leave, but when I do, I don't even have to try like I used to. I'm not worried. I already know we will both be attracted to each other, and I know she will want me intimately too, whereas in the past I was worried and didn't know because I never tried to understand them or focus on them. It seems impossible I know, but being honest, caring, not selfish, not arrogant, took my success rate up from like 50% up to 95%. Oh and of course. My past arrogant delusional self wrecked my marriage. I will never forgive my past self for that. I keep wishing I could go back and get a second chance. I imagine how much more my wife would love me and be attracted to me if she had known the person I am now. But it's too late. My previous ignorance led to stupidity and arrogance which ruined the best thing That happened in my life. It made me jaded, but also made me learn how reality really is. Now I can't stand arrogant people anymore, and whenever one is around me acting that way, they suddenly feel this strong impulse of feeling insecure and afraid around me. They know their BS won't work with me, and every arrogant delusional person I meet now, tries very hard to be as polite and appropriate as possible near me fearing I'll let them know I see right through them and shatter their delusion, and they want to get away as fast as possible as to not have their false reality come crashing down on them. It's kind of funny.
This wasnt a no-win situation, the issue was they didnt learn that a simple Tactical withdrawl while calling for reinforcements would have been more appropriate in that situation, seeing that as the 'acting Captain' noted that they were outgunned, a tactical withdrawl and possible call for backup would be sound tactical advice.
It would have been the best option i agree but i was also thinking why did they never attempt to use one of the ships as a shield and manuver around it. The only thing they seemed to do is move around in the same area to evade they didnt attempt to get into their blond spots or anything more then dance around and shoot and that might work in call of duty but come on these weapons lock on
@@SuperJhon360 Shields basically surround the entire Romulan ship, just as their sensors do as well, there are no 'blind spots' on a Romulan warbird. The best thing the crew SHOULD have done, was instead of approaching the Ferengi freighter, they should have sent a probe to determine if the ensign's concerns were correct or not, then proceed from there, once the Romulan Warbird appeared, they should have known straight from the get-go to back off, call for support and/or retreat.
A quote:
"To know when to retreat and to dare to do it."
The Duke of Wellington, when asked for his opinion on the best test of greatness in a general, quoted in 'William Fraser, Words on Wellington, 1889'
Quote:
"When a battle is lost, the strength of the army is broken - its moral even more than its physical strength. A second battle without the help of new and favorable factors would mean outright defeat, perhaps even absolute destruction. That is a military axiom. It is in the nature of things that a retreat should be continued until the balance of power is reestablished - whether by means of reinforcements or the cover of strong fortresses or major natural obstacles or the overextension of the enemy."
- Major general Carl Von Clasuewitz, On War, 4.13, 1832
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage."
- Thucydides, The History of the Peloponnesian War, c. 404 BC
Mr. Cho…Signal the three Klingon ships to decloake, hail the romulans again.
Tuvok: 🤨
Simulation: decloaking 3 Klingon warbirds, armed and ready
Tuvok: this Simulation is….most unusual.
At least Chell found his way into Voyager's Hazard Team
Elite Force 1&2 are good games.
Wish Hazard Team were canon
The one in command may have had command experience but he is no starship Captain. A lone Intrepid class starship would be hard pressed to match a D'Deridex class Romulan Warbird much less two of them. Retreating is not cowardice in most scenarios. Oh and to quote James T. Kirk, "I don't believe in a no win scenario." Winning doesn't necessarily mean defeating the enemy. Winning can also mean keeping your ship intact and your crew alive.
A recurring thing in Voyager that they do mention time and again. That ultimately the Voyager is alone, without support, in unknown space, etc. Preserving the ship and its crew is the number one priority over anything else. There's no starbase to repair at. There's no friendly ship that might come by to gather up survivors if you have to abandon ship, etc.
Like the scenario was (barring Romulans) something that was very real for the crew at that time. They COULD get jumped at any time by a superior enemy and needed to know how to react. To protect the ship and everyone on board instead of "going out phasers firing" or any machismo.
It really made the Maquis look like utter dumbasses and Tuvok being framed as someone that had to, by the episode end "Meet them halfway" as taking up some idiot traits as well.
Tuvok was right they should have realized that escape was their best option.
You’ve got to admire how he said “Sir” with the inflection of “jerk”. 😂
Yeah you're all so not Starfleet that we never see you again
Chell was mentioned. He got Neelix' job."
tuvok was right, you are outgunned and outnumbered, theres no point in throwing lives away in a battle that cant be won.
Was the Feringi ship called the Kobyashi Maru?
of course not. all insinuated similarities are purely coincidental.
I thought the same thing. The similarities were pretty obvious.
Hey, that blue guy looks like that dude that had a bounty on his head that Din Djarin captured in the very first episode of The Mandalorian! 😛
He's a Bolian. His character is in Elite Force 2. The guy turns out to be a good officer.
@@zippityzop And he is in the first Elite Force as well. 🙂
4:05 This is one of the only few episodes of Star Trek Voyager where the exit is called in the holodeck....
"Did the possibility of retreat, not occur to you?" Well Tuvok, since just one of those ships can be a match for the Enterprise, and you put us up against two of them, who would blow us up by the time we got to a point we could run away, no it didn't.
Which is exactly why retreat was the first thing that entered my mind the moment the FIRST one decloaked. Those things are twice the size of a Galaxy class, *each*. The commander had more than enough time to say, "Helm, get us out of here. Maximum warp"
If they had died before that command could even have a chance to be executed, I'd agree with you, but it looked to me like they had enough time to get away.
His first action was correct, attempt to establish contact, but when that failed he should have run
@@michaelspence2508 It depends on how close they were to a large gravity-generating body, like a planet or asteroid. If they had to clear the system first (to avoid wormhole effects and such), they would've been stuck at impulse and would have still been screwed. But if it was pretty much empty space and they could have gone to warp immediately, then Tuvok was spot-on.
@@ShaolinShadowStroke There's also the option of surrender.
@@michaelspence2508 *Me in my best Russian accent* "Romulans do not take keptives."
When in doubt... Janeway Protocol!
This made zero sense since the Maquis' tactics were hit and run.
But in tjis case, they wernot trying to hurt an enemy, but fulfill a humanitarian mission.
@@thiagodeandrade7081 Yes, but the fact that they were incensed at the idea of retreating is inconsistent with their tactics.
@@josephmassaro I guess since it was in the way of the task/duty/plan they were trying to fulfill they saw that as cowardice (leaving alleged civilians behind) instead of pragmatism. When they were Maquis, hitting and running was an integral part of the plan since the beginning and how they kept their forces, not just something to save their skins, but you are right, people who are basically former guerrilas probably should be much more flexible than they are being.
Actually, that was the point. This entire course that Tuvok was trying to train them in was get them familiar with the Starfleet mentality and protocols on board ship. The Maquis way was much more freedom fighter based, but would work very little in an actual quasi-military mindset. The guns blazing, while heroic in someway, would’ve caused that group the ship, and their lives. Tuvok was right in trying to teach them that sometimes, a tactical retreat is the best option.
I do understand your stance about run and gun mentalities, and you would be right, but in this specific case, it seemed like Dalby is too ready to go down in a heroic manner. Knowing his reason for joining the Maquis, it explains things. But as you can see, it still would get his people killed, and the ship destroyed.
Remember when Will Riker said to Deanna Troy when she was taking the bridge officer’s test: his responsibility is to the ship. Sometimes that means ordering someone to their death, and sometimes that means retreating from a tactically unsound situation. In both situations, many more lives were saved by those actions.
@@Agent_1701-D I think you miss my point. The maquis would understand the advantage of a retreat. "Those who fight and run away, live to fight another day." Their contrary behavior was purely a plot contrivance for the episode.
Thank you for uploading this! Can you upload more of this episode?
It's like that ride where you did the thing
sets course, then asks for position?
course is direction. position is where you're at. Not unreasonable to ask where they are at and what the surroundings are.
@@VoodooV1 but it was after he set a course
What species is Mr. Chell? I've seen them before but I forget.
Enterprise barber Mr Mott!
Bolian?
I get what they were trying to do but this episode falls flat for me on so many levels. Tuvok has taught hundreds if not thousands of students before. You mean to tell me he had no idea how to deal with difficult students? Then there's the fact that he was a spy on a Maquis ship so he knows those people aren't exactly the Alpha quadrant's best and brightest and he should know how to deal with them properly. It would've been more convincing if they had Harry Kim try to train them since he's been bucking for a promotion so badly.
Voyagers lower deckers !! Where’s mariner??
Spock's beard, these are four childish adults! I've always been immature for my age, and even I have never been so crass to a trainer after the very first lesson. And how do former Maquis not know the basics of surviving a battle?
Just need to reprogram the bridge simulator to make it possible to win😸
Tuvok was correct, of course.
Recreated the bridge? You mean the computer doesn't have a holograph on file of essentially itself?? 😅
How does the holodeck throw them around like that? 🤔
Control of the artificial gravity?
If the holodeck is simulating where you are standing and what is solid then having that solid ground shake and simulate the same kind of effects that would happen if they were being attacked at least what was always shown on the show then it would give the same results.
Yeah, but messed up. In the Delta Quadrant there would be no Ferengi or Romulans smh.
Siiiiirrrr
by this logic, the Enterprise C acted improperly by sacrificing itself instead of retreating
No, that's not the same situation at all; there was actually something at stake there that was worth the sacrifice. Defending a whole colony is absolutely worth the sacrifice of one ship, not to mention that the Enterprise's aid against the Romulan attack is what solidified the Federation-Klingon peace and actually made them allies, rather than their relationship eventually deteriorating to all-out war as we saw in Yesterday's Enterprise (though of course they couldn't have known at the time how far-reaching their actions would be). In this simulation, they weren't fighting some high stakes war or anything like that, they were just answering a distress call and got ambushed. Or I should say, a supposed distress call, because they couldn't even be sure there was any ship in distress and that it wasn't just a Romulan trap all along.
The Romulans that attacked Narendra III most likely came with one ship uncloaked and three cloaked. Garrett and the Enterprise-C likely engaged them noting that it was probably an even fight at the time, but were likely surprised to see three more Warbirds, hence the heavy damage and the torpedo fire that caused the temporal rift to form.
Also, they were coming to the aid of a Klingon outpost as the final peace treaty was being discussed. Seeing as that they were already allies in a way due to the evacuation of the Klingon homeworld, the Enterprise engaging threat forces to defend such an outpost solidified that trust between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, leading to the eventual Khitomer Accords.
@@Locutus494 tactically it would've been preferable to retreat and call reinforcements. This would also have been more likely to make the Romulans retreat, as they would now have an unknown amount of time until being engaged by potentially multiple Starfleet ships, as opposed to destroying the Enterprise which likely delayed the communication and allowed them to destroy the colony with impunity.
In hindsight the loss of the vessel had a good diplomatic outcome but that was purely incidental. Captain Garrett didn't deliberately sacrifice her ship as a diplomatic effort.
@@Agent_1701-D engaging Romulans with a single ship should always be done with caution for this reason. The correct protocol would be to go to red alert as soon as one ship appears, attempt hailing, return fire if fired upon, and immediately retreat if more enemy ships appear, as Tuvok suggests here.
@@stonem0013 Retreat?! Huh? If you retreat, you're just allowing the Romulans to massacre the outpost with impunity. That would be exactly what they want; they're not going to run away because they're unchallenged... 🤦♂️
Shouldn't you ask about the nearest system before you input a course?
Maquis would know better than to fight a superior foe head on.
They were taking on galor cruisers by ambush tactics using whatever they had available including raw numbers via ambush.
While evading did nothing the turn and suicide is more starfleet than maquis (at least for defending legitimate distress signals) for starfleet trains up (mostly) dogmatic-idealists not officers that realise if your ship goes boom so do all the other people you just rescued before that last ship takes a plot-derived hit to its engines/FTL.
Then again, the Maquis were never in command of an _Intrepid_ - class starship.
That group were trying to be heroes. Go out in a blaze of glory. It seemed to be a common mindset, and common failing, for the Maquis.
These four must have been relatively recent recruits and/or poor performers even in the Maquis.
At 2:02 they should have come about and hauled ass out of there at warp 9.
Also, I think they have not even raised the shields. Red Alert doesn't automatically do that.
Yes it does. Red alert automatically activities the shields, and arms the weapons. Yellow alert automatically activities the shields and puts people on alert to head to battle stations.
@@SamDog1701 Then what's the purpose of all the times we hear "raise shields, red alert"? It's pretty much a standard in all Star Trek.
@@FrancescoDiCaprio because it's dramatic. In Enterprise Reeds started that. Then in a handful of TNG, and VOY episodes they have mentioned that.
@@SamDog1701 I think the real answer is because it changed over time
God I despise Tuvoc, he is such a condescending pric, even for a Vulcan. He even treats his 'friends' with nothing but contempt.. Serving under him would be utter hell.
Tuvok is awesome.
why? because he didnt molycoddle them, my guess is in a real world military, if enlisted personell were to talk to an officer like this lot did, they would be in a world of trouble
They showed in a different episode where he takes command permanently after Janeway and Chakotay are left on a planet due to an incurable virus. The crew was ready to mutiny against him.
The Earth is Hell in the future. It gets hit by an asteroid and pushed toward the sun. Isaiah 13:13, 2 Peter 3, and Revelation 9.
Don't worry. You'll never see it.
@@Kyoril Only from a distance at best.
Different officers have different command styles.