@@burstcity3832 Technically not a war crime. What he did was make it so HUMANS can’t use the planet. The humans had to leave and the Cardassians could live there. In the end, the two species traded planets, star Fleet lost a ship to the biological attack, and the guy that used biological warfare on the one planet and a ship of his on species as captured. And this was not plan A or B. This was plan epsilon after this terrorists group and supporters ratcheted up the fight from shooting warships to biological warfare on another planet of civilians.
Haha, good point.😊 I think I read somewhere the real reason was they decided the holographic communication looked too much like someone beaming onto the bridge, and didn't want to have to explain it in every episode.
@@roydowling2542 In his defense he does mention that Starfleet Command had given the plan it's blessing. One man's war criminal is another man's war hero.
Considering Worf spent the entire run of TNG getting shot down when he suggested saturation bombing, ramming speed etc, it says a lot when even he is taken aback.
Well you can understand NO Klingon has ever seen true human aggression in person and by people they know. To finally actually see it he was like.. even a Klingon would not do such a think so recklessly. ITs a war crime basically. True sisko made them the least deadly mass weapon of destruction every used. But such total destruction. Is a dark action. Actions that is unhonorable dark twisted and at the same time VERY effective at winning in a battle or war. This is why Klingon's respect humans to some degree. Humans are weak and fragile for the most part compared to many other species and because of this they commit the worst acts of cruelty. Yet they also have honor codes and fight with passion. All things klingon's respect. majority of the badness of klingon's really is misplaced emotion. ANd is what i would expect any Space fairing Empire to embrace to keep a Effective and strong military.
I think it was also the fact that by this point he was very used to how things are done in star fleet. So an order like that, which goes against the ideals of the federation was a surprise to him. Although you can see that he gave no objections, he was just waiting to see if it was a bluff, as soon as he saw sisko was serious he was like "well damn, looks like we're finally doing things properly!" and just got on with it :P
For those who haven’t seen the episode, Sisko here is playing a bit of a role. He’s realized that Eddington sees himself as the hero and Sisko as a tragic villain, too obsessed with law and order to see what he’s become. Sisko decided that Eddington is too much of a threat to leave walking free, so he plays into Eddington’s beliefs, being the bad guy so Eddington will be the hero. A good hero always sacrifices himself to save innocents, so Sisko threatens innocents to prevent Eddington waging a protracted guerrilla campaign that would end with more death and destruction.
This. You can see it in Eddingtons talk about Javert while there's a damn war crime taking place; dude thought he was in a game. Sisko said "fair enough, I'll play too".
@@alcohol-freebeer3642 I stopped feeling sympathy for the Maquis when Quark convinced that Vulcan to help Starfleet using logic. The problem with the Starfleet officers helping the Maquis is that they still thought like Starfleet officers. They were fighting a righteous cause and will carry on until victory. They would only settle with only victory.They ignored that they were a small band of rebels with a population less than a million people. You can't force a regional power to recognize you when you are just an annoyance at best. The Federation must have a population of close to a trillion people. I am willing to bet that even the Cardassians never attacked the Federation deep enough to convince the Federation to use the full might of Starfleet.
He also turned an entire colony into refugees and probably created at least a couple of future Edingtons - though they wouldn't have the benefit of the starfleet training the real Eddington had.
"Let me tell you something about Hew-mans, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes." -Quark
"Do you know what the trouble is? The trouble is Earth, on Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. It's easy to be a saint in paradise..." --- Sisko
"Would you prefer another target, a _military_ target? Then name the system!" - Grand Moff Tarkin Literally the same energy as Captain Sisko in this scene.
@@omiorahman6283 soooo....Trump is a Jedi and we should have heard "I did not...use...the Dark Side...of the force...on that woman!" Back in '96??? WOOOWWWW. ALL IS BEING REVEALED!!!!😱🤪
“And you’re betraying yours, right now! The sad part is you don’t even realize it. I feel sorry for you, captain….this obsession with me….look what it’s cost you.” Eddington is such a hypocrite.
His delivery was spot-on. Makes me hate Eddington's character even more. He was an egotist and a traitor with federation blood on his hands. He deserved all the hate he got.
Avery Brooks is incredible. He was doing autographs at a convention I went to in 2013. I asked him to sign my script of the final episode, and I had wanted him to sign it in a specific spot next to the "to the finest crew..." dialogue . He took it from me and I pointed to the line. In his absolute pissed off Sisko voice, he goes "WAIT A MINUTE"! He wanted to read the entire page first so he could choose where he wanted to sign it. He signed it where I originally asked, but I will never forget the Sisko tone he used with me. This clip reminds me of that day, and I still get chills that I too, got yelled at by Captain Sisko.
@@JakeBritton94 They likely would have had an issue with it actually. It was made very clear the Klingons don't look kindly on attacking civilians, they also wouldn't be attacking civilian targets, as the Klingons would likely be able to just crush the Maquis with little effort. What's a Maquis Raider but a weak Bird of Prey. Make no mistake the Klingons are fully willing to destroy the home world of a creature to get rid of it, like the Tribbles, but they don't burn down random civilian planets for fun. Where is the Honor in it? Sisko became a monster with the order he gave and the entire Bridge crew along with him, because none of them stopped him. Sisko had clearly gone insane and needed to be removed from command, and is likely why he isn't captaining the Defiant when it goes to battle the Borg in First Contact. He was likely temporarily stripped of command of the Defiant because of his actions.
@@Stephen__White I don't think you've seen the full context of the episode. Sisko purposely played a moral villains story to draw Eddington out, because Eddington was playing a self-believing martyrs role in the defense of his cause. In order to prevent the conflict from getting even more bloody and drawn-out Sisko baited Eddington into the path which saved the most conflict in the long term. Sisko *gave* Eddington the opportunity to be a martyr for his cause, and Eddington took it.
Q said he was going to have fun with sisko but never bothers him again. He didn’t like that getting punched was the only reaction he v was ever going to get out of sisko.
@@Direwolf1166Or Q understood instantly that Sisko had right amount of savagery and barbarism in himself to led humanity into survival in inhospitable deep space. Picard was too soft ant too naive to be left alone, he needed guidance in order to not kill himself and the crew. Sisko did not.
I laughed when worf was like, "bruh don't you think you're being a little too violent here? When even a Klingon is shocked by your bloodlust and is trying to calm you down, you're on a whole nother level of gratuitous violence.
@@AnIdiotAboard_ Duet is probably the best episode of DS9 (this is my hill, I will die on it), but his best line was by far "Don't you see; it doesn't change anything! Kill me. Torture me… it doesn't matter. You've already lost, Major. You can never undo what I've accomplished. The dead will still be dead!" the dude was absolutely laser like precise with his barbs to get her to execute him. Dismissing everything her resistance cell had done and reminding her of all the people they failed all at once.
During The Dominion War, Sisko was so respected by his superiors that they rallied around him. Starfleet valued his leadership so greatly that they allowed Sisko to quietly orchestrate many tactical aspects of The Dominion War. The Federation was sustaining HEAVY losses of personnel and equipment. It was Sisko who successfully fought off The Klingons at DS-9 and then convinced The Klingons to rejoin The Federation. It was Sisko who had a hand in crafting the scheme that caused The Romulans to break their non aggression treaty with The Dominion and fight alongside The Federation. It was Sisko who urged the Federation forces ahead during the battle above Cardassia Prime that eventually brought an end to Dominion War. It could be argued that without Benjamin Sisko, The Federation does not win The Dominion War. Kirk and Picard were good at winning battles. Sisko turned the tide of a war The Federation was losing badly and brought victory to The Federation. When a war must be won, give me Sisko and Janeway. Janeway defeated The Borg and all other combatants on her own with a ship that hadn't been properly upgraded or serviced since it departed from DS-9.
@@SkinPeeleR As a writer ✍🏼 I can tell you it's always about the script. But the script is only part of the magic. In truth the fine words on the pages of the script would die an unrealized death 💀☠️ without the highly skilled actors who breathe life and personality into them. Sisko's words, demeanor and delivery made the viewing audience forget that his words were scripted. The script called for Sisko to be at his best under adverse conditions and Avery Brooks' performance delivered beautifully.
@@SkinPeeleR*ALTHOUGH as much of a hardass as Janeway is and will always be, that ending has never felt really earned or built up to. It feels like we're entering the Voyager redemption era, to an extent, but a whole lot of the fandom at time of release felt that Dark Renegade Future Janeway giving them Future Hax so they could blow away the franchise bigbad on a genocidal scale like they were tying up a loose plot thread felt pretty flimsy and rushed, especially considering how hard they'd been leaning into the "I, Borg" angle for the last few seasons.
It makes sense considering he wasn't really completely Ben Sisko, but rather a prophet taken down into a corporeal and linear state of being. He was literally sent by creatures that exist outside of time to do those exact things. Or more precisely, he was sent by himself to do all of those things. Even after all of it was over, think of how many things he had to go in time to arrange so it would all fit into this particular point in time. The regular prophets had no concept of cause and effect. He had to physically go back in time and make sure every mention of the Prophets in Bajoran history was there for him to find later and use to win that specific war. Masterful storytelling. It was a giant game of Bill and Ted's excellent adventure in space. "Remember to go back in time and put the keys right behind this...!" "Here they are Ted." "Excellent!"
Sisko went from being Commander of a neglected outpost to being the center of an intergalactic war. This is like Ulysses S. Grant going from shopkeeper to Commanding General of the Union.
He has the stubbornness of Janeway, the defiance of Kirk, the indomitable will of Picard, and the heart of gold like Pike. Captain Benjamin Sisko is without a doubt worthy of his place in the pantheon of legendary Starfleet Captains, who would even go against Starfleet's rigid regulations and general orders for the greater good.
@Alex But the dominion fleet of jem'hadar being so obedient ruined the show. A group of soldiers not rebelling against the weak vorta is something they should have played on more.
The real excellence of this move comes out towards the end of the episode when it is revealed that the biogenic weapons that the maquis used against cardassian settlers and the trilithium used by Sisko are not actually harmful to the other species and so the 2 groups were able to simply swap planets.
People forget that Eddington claimed that the Maquis wanted the Federation to "Leave [them] alone". The problems with that: the Maquis didn't leave the Federation alone, and Eddington wanted a war and had a hero/martyr complex. Sisko gave him exactly what he wanted. Turns out, it wasn't what he wanted after all. Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
This episode also makes it clear that Sisko is committing a war crime over a personal vendetta. It's neither a count against the character _as a fictional character_ nor a count against _Deep Space Nine._ The show was ahead of its time in genre TV because it allowed its characters to make big mistakes while keeping the audience's overall sympathy.
No, they Maquis only messed with the Federation when the federation came after them. They wanted to be left alone, the Cardassians and the Federation kept coming after them. They formed to defend themselves against the Cardassians who kept coming after them, then when the Cardassians whined to the Federation about the Federation Citizens in the DMZ daring to defend themselves, the Federation "had" to go after them because politics. The Federation should have said "LOL, too bad, you agreed to this when you agreed to let them stay in the DMZ. Have fun" Remember the Cardassians said "Leave us alone, we'll leave you alone" when the Federation and Cardassians renegotiated the treaty that put all those Federation Wolds inside Cardassian space. Turns out that was a lie. The Cardassians began to attack the colonists, and then complained to the Federation when the colonists defended themselves.
@@matt_1984_ It was more than attacking.They wanted to forcibly evict them so they would not have to share those former Federation colonies between cardassian settlers and people who were now officially federation expatriates.Today we would call that forced expulsion under international law.Frankly i think the Maquis are the baby of both the Federation and Cardassia.Any way you look at it it was a bad deal.The Maquis did not want to leave.The cardassians did not want them to stay.Conflict was inevitable.
sisko proved he was no better. genocide weapons verses genocide weapons in the hands of people willing too use them. sisko should be imprisoned for his actions but murderers supporter their kind as heros i guess
@@mouserr I doubt anyone in Star Fleet felt Sisko was a hero for his actions.But at the same time back at Star Fleet Head Quarters.I think it is safe to say they were of a divided opinion as to what exactly should be done about the Maquis.Also no one actually died even though Sisko only gave them a small window of warning.Under today's laws the most he could be charged with is forced displacement.
@@danieldickson8591 Picard most definitely bluffs. Matter of fact, he threatened to resign from Starfleet and they called his bluff, that's how he ended up in retirement. He also bluffed when he commanded the USS Stargazer, the tactic was called the Picard Maneuver which was used to fool a attacking ship just long enough to gain a critical advantage. You would already know these basic facts if you stayed a virgin.
Picard was a master tactician. He lacked the sheer willing brutality that Sisko displayed on several occasions. I found that Picard, at times, was hamstringed by his morals while Sisko decided that if human morals couldn't serve the greater good, then they were beneath him and went his own path. Two totally different men. I love the variety in command! It's just fantastic.
@@dovemilhon7035 That's why I hate Picard. You watched The Wounded? The one where Picard threatens to murder hundreds of his fellow Starfleet officers to save the vile, cunning and deceptive Cardassians? That was when I decided that Picard was a terrible character. Such a holier-than-thou complex.
In the Pale Moonlight is the highest rated star trek episode on IMDB (in any season except for some Star Trek: Picard finale ones but those haven't stood the test of time yet).
In that alternate universe, Sisko's a leering, opportunist psychopath who may or may not have grown a conscience. To the credit of the TV episode that depicts him, it's not altogether clear whether that Sisko rebels against authority because he's a better man than he seems to be, or because he's a prideful, impulsive egotist who's sick of playing house-pet to a preening dictator.
One thing to keep in mind about this scene is the context - the reason Eddington keeps calling Sisko "Javert" is because he sees himself as Jean Van Jean - the hero of the story, that is. And he sees Sisko as the antagonistic villain that he must continuously outwit in order to win. So what does Sisko do? Simple - he plays the role that Eddington gives him. He deliberately makes himself APPEAR to be a bloodthirsty madman hellbent on capturing Eddington, no matter the cost, because that would in turn give Eddington the opportunity to play the role of martyr - the man who heroically, selflessly, turned himself in in order to spare his people the madman's rage. Sisko basically tricked Eddington into turning himself over. He knew that what Eddington wanted most was a Federation villain, so he endeavored to give him exactly what he wanted.
Wonderfully said. Also, I believe this was a "this isn't the time man," timing issue. The dominion, cardassians, & klingons are all posing separate threats. Sisqo literally has no time for this shit.
I honestly don't think Sisko was playing chess here. I think he became legitimately unhinged in his need to stop Eddington because he duped Sisko personally multiple times. It became an obsession. If he'd turned himself over BEFORE Sisko fired at the planet and Sisko revealed he never had any intention of firing them then I could see it.
I would’ve loved to see the end of this scene when Dax says to Sisko “I’m surprised Star Fleet Authorizes this” Sisko “I knew there was something I forgot to do”
@@campbelldowler1396 That's what I loved about Sisko. Picard was so stuffy, always making some haughty speech from his moral high ground. Sisko is more like "I don't have time for that. I need to get shit done."
@@MrBrock314 In a time of war, hesitating on an order can mean the difference between victory and defeat. It's not so much about loyalty, rather it demonstrates that although easy-going at times, Dax is truly a cold-blooded killer (perhaps due to its unique perspective of living so many lives. Perhaps Dax doesn't view "death" with the same finality as singular lifetime beings do). Whereas, Worf has been softened to be more human-like, and not so quick to kill everyone in order to solve every problem.
It wasn't loyalty. It was that as the most experienced member of the crew, and the one with the most life experience, she realized it was the correct thing to do.
After two lifetimes of friendship, first as a mentor, then best friend, Dax trusts Sisko and vice versa. Dax understands the complexity of command and that choices have to be made when you wear that uniform because that's what she taught him as Curzon. She also knows not to subvert a commanding officer's orders and despite their informality with one another Sisko is her superior. She wouldn't countermand or criticize him even if she disagreed with his decision, (though she'd likely dress him down privately afterwards if it warranted that). I'd argue it's less loyalty to Sisko, though she *is*, rather a loyalty to the chain of command and a mutual understanding that the choices the commander makes are theirs to live with.
The Maquis were not popular with the Federation either, with Ethrington being even worse as he did not at least resign his post, even using it to steal replicators. Also, the biggest war ever in the galaxy going on kind of swept that under the carpet.
Honestly the low-light of that episode was Dax's offhand comment at the end absolving Sisko of the crime he committed. In the Pale Moonlight explores Sisko's moral compass so beautifully and intelligently. This had the same potential, but they instead chose to just... forget about it, I guess. It's a shame.
That IS "In The Pale Moonlight". You should give it a rewatch, and compare how they handle the ethical dilemma/resulting consequences to this one. ITPM is masterful. This one feels like a great jazz show that ends with a flat trumpet blast.
@@AstralMarmot You're absolutely correct! I was actually commenting on@AJ comment. Didn't see yours... I was told they actually continued story in book form (which book I don't know) with Sisko coming clean to Starfleet. Was told it wasn't that good. But then, novels aren't considered canon, soooo... I kinda liked that only Sisko and Garak were the only ones in the know. Added something to Sisko, and the show, I liked more so than others.
Another favorite of mine is when he says to Gowron "My shields are holding, your boarding parties are contained and my reinforcements are a lot closer than yours. Now what should I tell them, to stand down or come in firing?"
This is actually a good lesson. It showcases how people who set aside the rules of engagement are suddenly suprised when you also set aside yours. I, personally don't think this makes Sisko the bad-ass Captain of the year, but it does make him human.
It does make him human, but it also makes him a warcriminal and it demonstrates why there need to be "rules" in warfare. All sides were capable of blowing each other up using their conventional weapons. But once one side uses bioweapons and another starts to gas civilians and the third side is cardassia, you have a major shitshow were nobody really wins even if they are the last man standing
But Eddington was engaged in revolution to save his homeworld, so this is clearly an allegory for the Jews against the Palestinians... WRITTEN by Jews.
Once the genie is out of the bottle, it is very hard to put it back in. I'm guessing it's one of the reasons that even the Nazis never stooped to using poison gas in any military operations.
@@digitool5944 because unlike on the Enterprise D sisko didn't give him a reason to return Sisko would not play Q's game and that's why he never came back "it wasn't any fun" :P It was pretty much this Q:Hi Sisko: Get the *7%$ off my station! Q;make me Sikso: Punches Q Q: this isn't fun, i'm going back to the enterprise D their actually fun to toy with.
The Dominion allying with Cardassia made the point rather moot. The Maquis were slaughtered by the Dominion and the only survivors were a small group that Eddington helped escape and the Maquis integrated into Voyager's crew.
Agreed. War crime against a civilian target. Completely fucking up a planet's ecosystem for 50 years. This is part of what led to the setting Picard is in.
Sadly, I can only admit that DS9 absolutely destroyed Starfleet's image of morality. This is why I didn't like it as a teenager in the 90s. Once TNG hit "Chains of Command" in Season 6 and DS9 continued that thread with things like Section 31 and leaking the information that the Romulans and Cardassians used to try to destroy the Founders' home planet (while Starfleet sat on their butts and watched) and the despicable way the Federation betrayed the Maquis for their own selfish interests (hence why I nicknamed Admiral Nakamura "Admiral Scumbag"), I felt Starfleet was an abomination I would have wanted nothing to do with if I lived in their universe. A society without a moral compass, one that they adhere to even when things are tough or the enemy is not bound by such morality, is a society doomed to rot and fall. You can see the results of this society in Star Trek Picard. Even Star Trek Renegades (which came before it) could do no better with what they were left to work with at the end of DS9. Avery Brooks played the part VERY well, but the act of surrendering your morality and attacking innocent people to "get your man" is not service to a uniform. It is betraying all that it stands far even more than Eddington ever could. Starfleet was simply too far gone at that point for it to matter, though. If there's one super-power our people have, it's the ability to make any paradise into a dystopia, and we always do so in the same very predictable ways. How does it start? One group lifts themselves over another group of people. Then, the "lesser" people strike back, and "greater" people 'punish' them for it. The "lesser" people raise their martyrs on a flag and the attacks crescendo into ever-greater viciousness until one side is basically destroyed. Then, the winning side starts oppressing someone else, and the whole cycle starts all over again like hamsters running on a hamster wheel. Welcome to human history... and fiction. -.-
@@Quagthistle 1) Section 31 was a rogue element of the Federation, and often at odds with members of Starfleet. 2) The Federation was on the verge of collapse, genocide, and enslavement at the hands of the Dominion and Borg - two extremely, uh, not so good people to want to live with. The fact that any of the members of Starfleet even considered morality at that point, and tried to avoid getting their hands dirty, is a testament to their character and the Federation's values. If you fight a war where your people and way of life are on the brink of destruction, your hands will get dirty. Sisko and Bashir argue a lot about these topics actually, especially in Statistical Probabilities where Bashir was advocating complete surrender to save lives.
@@ebannaw it didn't matter if it was rogue group of starfleet it didn't matter. The federation thought itself better than societies that still valued individual morality and principles. They saw themselves as a society on a pedestal. When they did that they became conflicted because they could never understand why some societies were still fighting over different principles and values. They also never understood the maquis for what they really where. Freedom fighters that finally took a stand against the constant political decisions to leave its people far out the way unnoticed and forgotten by those enjoying paradise.
DS9 remains greatly misunderstood and hugely underrated by the mainstream. Kirk and Picard represented aspects of Starfleet and the Federation. Sisko took it all to a different level which has not been seen properly since. Hats off to Avery Brooks, for his highly complex and deeply spiritual portrayal of Benjamin Sisko.
Kirk and Picard win, lose, or draw, success or failure got to move onto another system and another planet. Sisko's decisions and action had lasting effects, the characters in that show had relationships not just interactions.
@@captainstarcat We will see, I don't recall the first two Seasons of DS9 being that good. In the case of both shows the story telling was excellent and why I hung around till season 3. Damn fat fingers. I meant season 3.
@Asmodeus04 lol Q let Sisko punch him. Do people not remember Q literally killed off several main characters in TNG just to teach them a lesson and brought Picard back to life? Maybe the real Sisko is actually the baseball and the one we see in all the episodes is the replacement Q made.
@@uni4rm as Q was never explored in DS9 beyond that one appearance, we don't know why he was happy to sit out through all of what's going on - the writers didn't want to use the character, which is fair, but I always wondered if his last words on the show hinted that the writers had indeed thought about the implications of Q within the DS9 story - for example, what kind of interactions would the Prophets have with a Q? 'You're much easier to provoke [than Picard]... how fortunate for me.' I think they either figured that Q would have no or limited ability to go against the Prophets, and Sisko being where he is means that Q doesn't have to get involved anymore, as Sisko would be up for the fight that I'm sure Q knew was coming down the line... or it's a throwaway line that was meant to hint that Q might have found ways to cause real mischief with Sisko's short fuse, in just plain-old Q style. Who knows.
It’s never “easy” to maintain your principles, because they are by nature inconvenient. It’s just that sometimes it’s harder than others. And those times are when you see who really believed in them and who did not.
All three (Worf, Kira and Jadzia) each had a look. Worf for Sisko being aggressive, Kira as far as the Emissary killing and Dax for her former host’s loyal friend going against Starfleet’s ideals.
Something to keep in mind is that Eddington obviously didn't really understand the huge consequences of what he had done since he had such a hero complex. So Sisko was just as much making it clear to Eddington that, "What you do has real consequences." as he was acting out of a grudge. Was it a brutal, heavy-handed response? Yes. Was it necessary to stop Eddington? Possibly. That's what made DS9 interesting was that there many situations where there were no perfect, moral answers.
Don’t forget that Eddington also fired on a civilian ship that was just trying to evacuate the 2nd poisoned planet. Like that’s a level of genocide right there: poisoning a place where civilians live and then shooting at the people trying to flee. Like Sisko *had* to stop Eddington right there and then. Otherwise you literally are enabling continuing killing of civilians trying to flee.
@@Ceece20 Eddington doing wrong does not absolve Sisko here...he is supposed to be better, Star Fleet Captains are supposed to be the example in the darkness. He often walked the line, but crossed it here.
@@Jake-cm9jj as Sisko said, Eddington and the Maquee had become an intolerable threat to the safety and security of the Federation and the Peace. You don’t get to complain about not being a saint when you are trying to stop genocide of civilians. By firing on a civilian escape craft and disabling (two) federation ships, not to mention poisoning 2 planets, Eddington had to be taken down. If he had to be taken down hard and as a result the Maquee had to move to a new planet, that’s their fault and the consequences of their actions, not Sisko’s or the Federation.
@@Ceece20 But that's the whole point of the Federation and Star Fleet...they don't stoop to the enemy's level. They are the ideal form of what we can be. We've seen many episodes of trek where a rogue star fleet captain did something not even this bad and the main story of the episode was to take them down. I'm not arguing that his solution wasn't viable, sure it seemed to work....I'm just saying that he should have been court marshalled for it if he was held to the same standards they held other star fleet captains throughout the shows.
@@Jake-cm9jjI'm saying that even Starfleet cannot let a genocidal maniac go killing civilians and attacking their ships just because "it isn't a nice method". That would be compliant with genocide to let it occur. Sisko did what Starfleet is expected to do if not fulfilling the ideal form. Marquee got what was coming to them and they deserved losing the planet. That was the consequence of their action for being genocidal terrorists who openly shoot down civilians trying to escape.
But in the scene before and after it’s clearly shown that what he does makes peace, doesn’t kill anyone and allows for both the Maquis and the Cardassians to switch planets and settle on the planets that are on the right sides of the demilitarized zone
@@NestorCaster You're correct, but I don't think the people here are interested in hearing it. For every DS9 clip that deals with something morally ambiguous (this episode, In the Pale Moonlight, anything to do with Section 31, etc), the comments are full of people low-key getting off on having their cynical worldviews validated - even if the full context of the show doesn't actually support them.
People can talk shit all they want about Avery Brooks' acting. Dude oozes intensity, which was perfectly appropriate for his character. They made him the anti-Picard, which is exactly what the series needed.
+Chris Myer I disagree, my friend...Brooks as Sisko was my fav captain on my fav of the STs. Great actor. Hammed it up a lot (almost as much as Shatner), but still my fav
Jake Sisko grows immensly throughout the series. He definitely started off really bad though. Avery makes a great Sisko. He's intense and emotional and he really does put his own mark on the character. It's clear that the doesn't intend to play him as your general "run of the mill" starship captain, but instead went with a theatrical approach, which I actually appreciate.
Don't forget that Eddington had just done EXACTLY THIS to a Cardassian colony, and brushed off any complaints by saying it was just part of war. Yet somehow Sisko doing the same thing to a Maquis colony is an unforgiveable act of evil. Dude can stuff his smug moral superiority right up the orifice he excreted it out of.
There seems to be a lot of people around here missing that point. Whatever Starfleet was doing to contain the Maquis wasn't working and the Maquis' tactics were getting worse. But Sisko got the job done, didn't he?
@@uni4rm obviously both of these acts are wrong (and I'd want both men tried for attempted genocide), but it does point out Eddington's Xenophobia and hypocrisy: he threatens the death of a civilian colony and he's a hero, someone else does the exact same thing for even less hostile reasons than him, and they're a monster.
What I love about Sisko is that you could straight up imagine him being a villain in a TNG episode. He is exactly the sort of captain that could clash with Picard, as he has a completely different mindset from him, and willing to compromise on his own ethics if he believes it will lead to the greater good in the future.
It was fitting that DS9's pilot began with thinly veiled hostility between Sisko and Picard, even if it was for different reasons than their personalities. It was also why many TNG fans had a hard time giving DS9 a chance at first. Hell some of them still haven't come around and still dislike it.
I wished we got more with Picard and Sisko. I get why they didn’t but I feel like it would be intresting. Especially during the war the clash of how peace needs to be maintained with Sisko pointing out that it doesn’t always work like that
@@Liedson9000 People hate Janeway for that because it was a cold blooded murder of 1 man to save 2. Morally it is the same as killing a man to remove his organs for donations. WHich when combined with the existance of Thomas Riker means she could have saved all 3 of them.
TOS Klingon episode "Errand of Mercy" makes much the same point as this episode: Kirk is willing to go too far, with the lives of countless civilians lost, to satisfy his own anger and hunger for victory. Neither in the scene above nor in "Errand of Mercy" does Star Trek condone the captain's actions. The '60s show, like _Deep Space Nine,_ was at its best when it allowed its heroes to make mistakes, even big ones.
@@Dorian-_-Gray - I would not say it was a mistake to render a planet uninhabitable to humans. The Marquis were a threat to the Federation and to the Cardassians. Sisko did not kill a single person on that planet, they all evacuated the planet. What he did was make them homeless for a while. After the Marquis stopped their war, there was an exchange of planets. The one that Sisko made uninhabitable for humans, the Cardassians could live on. The ones that the Cardassians were living on, that was changed to be only habitable for humans, was given to the Marquis. It was not a mistake, but a tactic for peace, and it worked.
Sisko knows he's betraying his uniform by doing what he's doing, but as he has said once before, the most damning part of it is I think I can live with it, I can love with it because I CAN live with it. All he does is no less than what Picard would do, only difference is Picard finds diplomacy a more, tasteful way. Sisko will do whatever is needed. I'm surprised that Sisko at some point wasnt recruited into section 31 because of how far he's willing to go for the "Security and Protection of the Federation". He honestly could be its poster boy much in the way captain America is for the American dream
Yup, that's when the episode lets you know Sisko's gone too far for the wrong reasons-that this is a morally complex show that will let its hero make an egregious error over a personal vendetta.
The way I see each captain, Kirk was the adventurer and explorer, Picard was the diplomat and anthropologist, Janeway the scientist and innovator, and Sisko is the Tactician and Warrior. Not only did he punch Q, I bet there would be many Klingons that have great respect for Sisko; that's something not easily earned when it comes to Klingons.
Sisko's decision to publicly announce a campaign of war crimes was the moment he showed he had what it took to be a Starfleet admiral one day. All while sitting in his chair and spinning around like a bored Bond villain; definitely my favourite captain, though Janeway also had a crazed ruthless streak in her that could be unintentionally hilarious. Also love the stares Sisko gets here from Worf and Kira, the two most hardened members of the DS9 crew IMO. Having it be one of the more young/inexperienced/naive characters would have cheapened the impact of that part of the scene.
No, he just transformed EVERY officer under his command into war criminals. A commanding officer is not just charged with the welfare and safety of his crew, but also molding these young men & women into responsible officers that will someday have others they will mold also. He could have created a chain of unethical officers that think the ends justifies the means. Just look how this type of behavior filters down throughout the Russian ranks where there are so many atrocities being committed.
@@REB4444 Is it a war crime if you give them every opportunity to evacuate? And then allow them to finally flee when they didn't get the message the first time?
@@REB4444 No he didn't. In Starfleet ship captains are given considerable leeway when operating significantly far away from the more established portions of the Federation. At this point in time the Maquis had basically declared their independence from the Federation even though the Federation had not and would not accepted it. Attacking a Starfleet flagged ship and making the biological equivalent of dirty bombs, the Maquis placed themselves on a platform that the Federation (who were working hard to not ignite an new war with Cardassian Empire) could not and would not tolerate. So operating under the rather broad directions of "Do not allow this grass roots separatist group to reignite a war between the Federation and Cardassian Empire." Sisko set about eliminating a group of domestic terrorists, who had made themselves an untenable threat to the Federation. I mean seriously, the Maquis basically attacked the real world equivalent of a Nuclear Weapons train, stole enough Nuclear Material to make dirty bombs, retreated to Guam, and started broad casting their intent to go nuke Russia to the world at large. If that didn't cause the US armed forces to employ scorched earth tactics to prevent WW3 I don't know what would!
on tng, worf was always asking if he could open fire on nearby ships only to be told no by picard. I could see him banging his console in frustration. This scene however even he is shocked as hoping sisko isnt serious.
That's the difference between Worf's relationship with Picard, and his relationship with Sisko: Worf honored and respected Picard (like everyone did). But while Worf respected Sisko as well, he was also a little afraid of him: Sisko crossed lines that Picard wouldn't and couldn't. I think Worf always knew where he stood with Picard...but he was less certain with Sisko. There was always a hard limit to what Picard would or would not do. Sisko had to be more "flexible". Hell, he engineered a plot to trick the Romulans into joining the war against the Dominion: He consorted with spies and criminals, sold dangerous and illegal technology, had official documents forged, and inadvertently murdered a Romulan senator... And he could live with it, because it had to be done. Who wouldn't be intimidated by a person who is capable of that?
More accurately: we're shown Worf's reaction so that we understand that even _he_ thinks Sisko is about to do something that is seriously morally wrong.
To be honest Worf has been softened slightly by his federation experience, he may have learned a few things but they have definitly effected his Klingon spirit..
When Darksied said "They do not have the strength of character to destroy an entire planet to achieve success, but you? A human? You’d kill your own kind to win battles, an admirable quality" He was talking about Sisko
Garek - "Captain, I feel I owe you an apology. I thought Starfleet was against using such tactics against an enemy bent on destroying to get what they want. Clearly, I was mistaken. Starfleet does have a set of fangs dripping with venom...and he's called Captain Benjamin Sisko."
Major Lennox answered with his *life*! As you should have done if you had any sense of honour! You lost the Colours of the King of England! You disgraced us, sir. You shamed us, sir.
"Picard fought The Borg. After they were done ruining his life, he sat in his office and drank tea. Then Sisko fought The Borg. After they were done ruining his life, he went and built a bunch of guns strapped to an engine and called it a warship. They only called it *The Defiant* because *Benjamin Sisko's Motherfucking Pimp Hand* wouldn't fit on the side.
Eddington: You can't just render an entire planet uninhabitable to humans!! Sisko: Didn't you just do the same thing to a Cardassian planet yesterday? Eddington: But I'm not Star Fleet! Sisko: Star Fleet doesn't have warships either, but my pimphand has it's torpedos locked on your colony anyway.
I'm not sure you meant to make this point, but the Defiant serves the same purpose as Sisko does in this episode: it makes the fictional world of Star Trek richer and deeper by showing that Starfleet, and its officers, don't always adhere to their values, and when they don't, it risks changing both them and their society in ways that aren't always for the better.
@Xiao Luwan More like it needs to be understood that just because you have certain principles doesn't mean others will give a crap and won't try to destroy them. You have to defend them. This is what made DS9 so good that it showed that the utopian future of Star Trek isn't just something that was achieved and stands forever, but something that needs to be protected and worked on to stay alive.
This is one of the best moments of Sisko - he stands apart, willing to push morals past their limits for the greater good - he's not just a 'good guy' who'll always find the best solution - he's a realist who breaks down the problem and deals with it - working out what would make his opponent stop and doing it to stop potentially uncountable more casuality's if he hadn't - few Star-fleet captins would dare to make such a decision and it's honestly really impressive.
Worf's moment of hesitation, then just being like "ya, alright." is so great. I love Worf's respect of Picard and Sisko. Everyone deserves someone like that in their life.
@@MAWUSIFITNESSTRAININGINC One of the reasons I dislike this episode. Warf clearly did not like this action and probably considered it dishonorable (which it really really is), but was cowed into doing it anyway. It ruins the character and makes him kind of a coward.
@@kevindonahue2251Worf once said that "In war nothing is more honourable than victory." Besides it's not like any of the Maquis on the planet died. They had time to evacuate and we're given fair warning by Sisko. Nothing dishonourable about that. If Sisko gave the order to directly bombard the Maquis settlements with Quantum torpedoes I expect Worf would not have obeyed.
You gotta love Worf's first reaction. He has no qualms about putting putting even more deadly substances on an antimatter warhead before launching it at someone; his only concern is that "we might miss."
I think it's the fact they were about to commit a war crime. Killing 100000 refugees to get one man is the kind of thing that gets you and your crew put behind bars, or executed. Could you imagine us gassing 100000 people even to get Osama back in the day? It's absurd.
@@Krystalmyth Watch the whole episode, this video is out of context. A few bullet points for you though; 1. He did not kill anybody, just evicted them from the planet. Even gave them a warning, they thought he was bluffing, their problem. 2. He did not commit war crime, he retaliated. The rebels used WMD (weapons of mass destruction) against multiple Cardassian colonies, from their on gloves were of, making ONE planet uninhabitable was less then a proportionate retaliation. 3. The Maqui attacked and disabled a federation ship, they are a paramilitary organisation, far from refugees. Your comparsion is actually spot on, they are like the Taliban or any other terrorist group. 4. The bottom line was stopping the Maqui to use WMDs and to stop them from attacking federation ships. Catching Eddington was just the icing on the cake.
@@FrankyLon 1: You don't have to kill anybody to commit war crimes. It's called a burned soil operation and was used by the Nazis in WW2. It was penalized in 1949 by the Geneva Conventions. 2: The use of biological/ chemical weapons was, universewise, outlawed in 2155. The use of such weapons is a crime irrespective the reason. So is the use of force against civilian population. 3: the same as 2. The use of such weapons against the taliban would be illegal, too. 4: Stopping them by noncriminal actions. Sometimes the job of an soldier or law inforcement officer is inconvenient, but this does not mean that he is above the law least of all above human rights. Conclusion: Cpt. Benjamin Lafayette Sisko broke the laws of war in concious and malicious manner and must be court-martialed.
Guy Withdacap you’re assuming the Geneva Convention was brought back after WW3 and the disbanding of the many nations that led to the dark period they were in just prior to First Contact.
I always love DS9 for ditching the “perfect society” and allowing the crew to be conflicted and morally dubious. They feel more like real people than paragons of morality doing everything right in every episode and having some deep philosophical message about how they’re better than the enemy of the week.
Real fact: on present earth, using chemical weapons against your own citizens or un-uniformed insurgents isn't a war crime. No treaty forbids it. That's why you can CS your own people all day long, but launch a CS canister against enemy troops, and it's the Hague.
@@jwhippet8313 To supplement your point, it should also be noted that the tear gas used by regular law enforcement around the world is a banned chemical weapon under the Geneva Conventions. And yet: perfectly fine for domestic use.
@@Doogie2K3 Unlike tear gas, bullets aren't banned by any international convention. I'm glad that police don't use bullets to stop riots. You clearly seem to be against the use of tear gas on civilian rioters, but what would you want police to use in its place?
The amazing depth of that scene is that Sisko was acting and not acting at the same time. He rationally understood what course of action was necessary to solve the problem, while not killing people in the process, but appearing extremely out of control, when in fact he was very much in control, but the emotion was real nonetheless. Sisko was pretty sure he would not have to fire another pair of torpedoes, and part of his emotion, his anger, might actually have been channeled from the fact that he had to do this relatively ugly thing in the first place. As long as you are able to observe yourself from a detached viewpoint, you have a chance to stay in control of yourself.
yeah, it was executed brilliantly. He played right into Eddington’s fantasy of Les Miserable and was willing to make his whole crew think he’d gone mad to do so. And he knew he would have to make one very extreme decision to pull it off, and ultimately he did choose something that would spare lives (but is freakin crazy!). So well done.
@@robertpentangelo4860 what makes Sisko impossible to admire? He has shown to be steadfast, loyal to his crew and willing to do anything to ensure the safety of his home. He is a great and loving father and a good leader. Which of these traits are not admirable or noble?
The writing was spot on and the delivery was superb ! The ethical implications left the viewers wondering and guessing their own judgement.. Isn't that what a show like this is all about - the proof is, that even to this day - it is being discussed !
I think what I love most about this scene is that Eddington's reasoning and criticism of Sisko demonstrates that the writers of the show weren't trying to suggest that Sisko was ethical in what he did, but that this conflict had a shade of grey that other Star Trek shows didn't often confront.
Not exactly. Even Sisko knew what he was doing was unethical, but it was the only way: Eddington had convinced himself he was the noble, selfless hero in this story. Once Sisko realized this, he knew the only way to beat him was to be the "villain". He gave Eedington exactly what he wanted: A chance to sacrifice himself to save his people. Eddington never wanted victory, he was smart enough to know the Maquis were doomed one way or another...Eddington wanted martyrdom.
That may very well be true, certainly Sisko's actions DID betray Starfleet values, even though the situation was so difficult it required a tough decision of one kind or another. But I also believe this was meant to showcase a real situation of mass killers using excuses to justify their use of horrific acts, as just because Eddington valued his people, obviously that does NOT excuse his use of bio-weapons to mass murder people to make homes for his own, and it seems apparent in this scene that he expected the Federation to just roll over and allow him to kill millions in order to follow their moral high grounds. People here and in other videos argue about how better one captain then the other would have been, but ANY of those captains would not just roll over and allow such horrific acts without making one difficult decision or another, and in this case, Sisko chose to force Eddington to face his own hypocrisy in a bid to force him to choose between ruthless execution of his agenda to help his people, or the actual LIVES of the people he tried to protect by committing mass atrocity. Thing is, regardless of what one thinks of Sisko's acts, Eddington very much betrayed the Maqui, who were NEVER meant to be ruthless, bloody genocidal killers in their quest for peaceful homes.
Leonardo's Truth What are you talking about? TOS had its moral puzzles as well. DS9 reaffirms Trek's philosophy in the end. It just has to put it to the test first. Isn't that how you show the strength of your culture? And if you hate DS9 so much why are you here?
I've said it before and I'll say it again: "If you are going to negotiate, you send Pike or Picard. If you want to win a fight, you send Janeway or Kirk. To win a war, you send Sisko". Even though I grew up with the original series, Sisko will ALWAYS be my Captain!
Did you look 👀 at his right eyebrow after he said that? He showed powerful anger in this episode. Janeway had some times and Picard did as well but nothing so emotionally fueled. Sisko showed what loyalty to the uniform is in this part.
He gets angry, yet he takes the same course of action. Hypocrisy at it's finest. If there was any sense of reality in this show he would've been stripped of his rank & charged with a crime.
"I am the villain of the story" love the way he dealt with this situation... You want to play hero then lets play, all he did was basically bring balance to the situation, eddington poisoned a cardassian world making it inhospitable to them so sisko poisoned a marque world and made it inhospitable for humans and in the end all that came of it was they swapped planets...brilliant solution. He also made eddington blink, essentially made him pay the price for the silly heroic fantasy crusade he was on, he basically said okay lets see how righteous and clever you feel when the cost is more than you're willing to sacrifice. Definition of bad ass right there.
DS9 didn't start off too well, but once it got darker it produced on a regular basis some of the finest moments of Star Trek- this being one of them. As such, it became my favourite series by a long way. Once Avery got the beard, DS9 was awesome.
Additionally The walking dead was at its peak when Rick had a big bushy beard and dropped off after he shaved it. You cant escape the power of the beard.
CBS is going all in with a shared universe now. They have Discovery, a picard series later this year, a section 31 series in late 2020/early 2021 and a starfleet academy series after that. By 2022 we'll probably have four concurrent trek series and in a likelihood they will be carrying cbs's streaming service all them themselves.
The people who keep saying the other captains would have worked something out are forgetting that the other captains had one-issue-per-episode. The writers would have to orchestrate some kind of compromise so the Enterprise/Voyager could discover something else and face a different problem. That's why DS9 is more realistic. In real life, we can't always solve problems with a neat little bow on top. We face the same problem day after day. The other side won't always give in, no matter how diplomatic you are. When that happens, what are you going to do? DS9 addressed this, while the other series didn't. You should be able to deal with a story that doesn't have a Disney-like happy ending.
I can deal with reality just fine, but in reality nuking a planet would have him over a barrel, especially in star treks moral timeline. Remember this was his call alone, no authority from HQ at all, on a personal mission. Heck if i'd of been on that bridge i'd of leveled a weapon at him myself. Janeway might have done it to protect people as she wouldn't have the means to call home, not on a mission hunting one man. Picard never in a million years would he nuke a planet on a personal mission of revenge, because one man had hurt his pride or ideals.
***** Yes that came into my mind when I wrote this. The man was biologically and psychology altered and put through the trauma of killing thousands of people he respected, knew and served with against his own will. In the end his choice was to kill what he considered the enemy, an enemy so grave they would swallow the entire federation and earth whole, at the cost of his own crew's lives. Now let's compared that to sisko shall we. Eddington betrays sisko and hurts his pride and his trust. Granted reasons to be upset, reasons to be looking to apprehend the man perhaps. But nothing compared to what Picard went through. The maquis were defending themselves against an opponent that starfleet wouldn't help them with, the borg are a race that consume all life. There is a big difference there. Finally we have the methods. You say picard was willing to sacrifice his crew to save earth/the federation, I understand. You might be willing to argue sisko would do the same, would picard have nuked a planet, ahhhh i'd say no and if he did, i'd have him over a barrel, phaser ready to fire, just like his crew were ready to the one time he made a terrible call. (not a bad call an unethical one) What did sisko get, nothing, he made the bad call, and nuked a planet to boot, was rewarded and considered a hero.
Mark Joseph Middleton You are partly correct in your reasoning. Sisko states himself that he wouldent have minded If eddington just left starfleet in favor of the maquis. Like so his friend Cal hudson did during the initial uprising of the Maquis. He is angry and upset cause he betrayed his trust (as you stated) but also abused both the trust he and starfleet placed in them. Eddington didnt just leave starfleet, He used his position to sabotage and steal from starfleet and then make off to the Maquis. Right before the attack on the Malinché starfleet was happy with just opposing them and not helping them against the cardassians. Attacking federation shipping and even starships made Starfleet go on the offensive regarding the Maquis. Not a feat unpresedented btw - Picard at one time used Ro Laren to ambush an entire Maquis fleet.. The poisoning of the planets may have been a drastic measure but it showed both to the cardassians and the maquis that the fed where defending their treaty with the cardassians and balanced things after the original Maquis bio-weapon attack.
Thank you for putting into words the reason I like DS9 so much. I had always tried to describe it as political or historical but that didn't really do it justice.
Mark Joseph Middleton In this case I believe he just forced the evacuation of the planet by making it uninhabitable to human life. I would say that it is more an issue of ecological terrorism and less about mass murder. As far as the other captains go... I think Archer would have done something similar. In the later episodes, during the Human-Xindi war, Archer was faced with the extermination of the human race. At one point he put a captured enemy into an airlock and began to depressurize it. It was not the only time he used torture to meet his ends. At the end of the war he returned to earth with PTSD and a sour disposition. I see many people in the comments mentioning Captain Janeway. Though I agree that she was likely the most moral and upstanding of the Captains, I doubt she would have returned from the Gama Quadrant if not for the liberal use of Deus Ex Machina. Many of her command decisions would have seen her relieved of her command in any modern military. In the Episodes: Basics I and II, she puts the needs of the one before that of the ship and her crew. Not only was that unrealistic, but counter even to Star Trek tradition. Real problems don't wrap themselves up neatly after an hour, and wars are never forgotten.
As much as I love Kirk and Picard, this scene (and In the Pale Moonlight) made me reconsider Sisko as being one of the most badass captains of all time.
I've described Sisko as "The tactical genius and fighting spirit of Kirk, with the suave wisdom of Picard, plus that extra New Orleans flavor added in"
"In the Pale Moonlight" is far and away my favorite DS9 episode. Simply put, because Sisko, in laying the events out in his log, is appealing to you...the viewer...while trying to justify everything that's happened. Then, when the log's erased, it's up to you to decide whether or not the ends justify the means. At least, that's my take on the episode. Yours may vary.
I disagree, you need a diplomatic president who will use force if truely necessary, like Picard. As you see here, Sisko uses force first, then diplomacy. This would not work for a president.
Pat S The problem with holding up Picard as a practical example is that the writers would always get him out of trouble. In Redemption I&II Picard made so many mistakes that have historical precedents it was astounding. Only the writers at the very end waved their wands and said ok civil war over.
A weird thing to notice but the most impressive thing with this scene is the accuracy to bridge operations. Nog is the bridge talker and when Sisko calls a speed Nog says "engine-room bridge; warp six". I do not believe any other Star Trek ship bothered with having a bridge talker and instead made the captain have to call the engine room himself or had the speed set by the bridge consoles. The captain has other things to worry about than calling the engine room for speed changes and on a ship with as complicated of propulsion systems as Defiant or Enterprise direct control throttles would not be likely.
The helm usually has seamless control of propulsion. Nog was the relay due to damage sustained earlier in the episode. Captains do not need to communicate with engineering for propulsion unless there is some form of disruption with the computer systems, like the battle damage received from the Maquis
I hope you don't think this episode treats Sisko's decision as the right one. _Deep Space Nine_ was a good show because it allowed its characters to screw up, and here, Worf's reaction tells the story: Sisko isn't any more in the right than his enemy. They're both treating a personal vendetta as more important than the principles they espouse. This sort of depth of character defined _Deep Space Nine._
@@Dorian-_-Gray Not sure that was the case in this episode though. Sisko pondered the decision, but wasn't it implied he just played Eddington like a fiddle? He needed to play the villain in his story of the hero. And the price was "just" making one planet uninhabitable to humans.
@@tatianalyulkin410 it premiered in 1980, which even by the time of DS9 would make it centuries old. both the book and the play would meet the definition.
Holy crap, I've watched this scene countless times but its only now i see the slight twitch on Sisko's face just after Eddington says "The sad part is you dont even realise it" at 3:50. He does realise it, and its killing him but he has to keep playing this part of the villain so Eddington as the "hero" can save the others by surrendering
@@TheBigExclusiveOne of the very worst pieces of Star Trek writing. A chemical weapon attack on an innocent population wouldn't even fly in the late 20th century, nevermind the era of Starfleet.
@@DrDoohickey I don't really disagree with you there. But by this stage we've already seen the federation do some pretty awful things, they're desperate. And for better or worse, Sisko was selected to "do what needed to be done". I'm not saying I agree with his actions because I don't. But I disagree with it being the worst piece of Trek writing for sure.
Picard: "You have just committed an act of utter barbarity!"
Sisko: "I'm about to fire two more acts of utter barbarity"
Picard: "You have just committed an act of utter barbarity! "
Sisko: mumbling "Locutus of Borg says what? "
@@Yossarian921 Even in tv series I detest war crimes.
@@burstcity3832 Technically not a war crime. What he did was make it so HUMANS can’t use the planet. The humans had to leave and the Cardassians could live there. In the end, the two species traded planets, star Fleet lost a ship to the biological attack, and the guy that used biological warfare on the one planet and a ship of his on species as captured.
And this was not plan A or B. This was plan epsilon after this terrorists group and supporters ratcheted up the fight from shooting warships to biological warfare on another planet of civilians.
There is no possible way I can not hear that in Picard's voice. in my head.
@@LionlordEbonfire War crimes can be commited against your own species too though.
He was so badass that when he yelled “shut that thing off!" no one dared turn it back on again after this episode 😄
Lol
I had a good laugh at this lol
Haha, good point.😊 I think I read somewhere the real reason was they decided the holographic communication looked too much like someone beaming onto the bridge, and didn't want to have to explain it in every episode.
@@Tim3.14 It was too clunky to explain, yeah. there was no real reason for having a holocommunicator in the first place, come tot hink of it.
Rumor has it that it is still turned off to this day.
Eddington: You're bluffing.
Sisko: Oh yeah? Do it.
Entire Crew: Holy shit he's not bluffing.
They already knew it.
Sisko doesn't bluff
You never bluff. You always back up your claims.
Why did you think they sent that other starships to hunt Eddington Sisco had major problems letting go
Seems like he was committing war crimes.
Yep, that's his name, Captain Benjamin "War Crimes" Sisko
“You bombed me. Picard would never have bombed me.”
“I’m not Picard.”
startrekua-cam.com/video/b4XrdFdVb6Y/v-deo.htmlsi=tz2hGEirzv_eEKrI
Sometimes that's a good thing.
This was not one of those times.
But locutus would
No Sisko was a war criminal. For what he did here and for what he did to get the Romulans into the war
@@roydowling2542 In his defense he does mention that Starfleet Command had given the plan it's blessing. One man's war criminal is another man's war hero.
When Worf hesitates, you know the action is brutal, even by Klingon standards.
This is not brutal by Klingon standards. Worf is a starfleet officer and that was an illegal order that he should have disobeyed.
Facts!
If it were tribbles,he would tapdance on that button. :]
Klingons have their honor. There was no honor in what Sisko did.
@@hokutoulrik7345 honor? Its horror. ;)
Worf over there goin' like "... damn... Picard never did this shit.."
Aye! Im sure I was like "what he lacks in speeches dis boss is makes it up in savagery"
😂😂
Oh, but he did this rad shit.
He's not Picard.
‘I’m not Picard’
Considering Worf spent the entire run of TNG getting shot down when he suggested saturation bombing, ramming speed etc, it says a lot when even he is taken aback.
Well you can understand NO Klingon has ever seen true human aggression in person and by people they know. To finally actually see it he was like.. even a Klingon would not do such a think so recklessly. ITs a war crime basically. True sisko made them the least deadly mass weapon of destruction every used. But such total destruction. Is a dark action. Actions that is unhonorable dark twisted and at the same time VERY effective at winning in a battle or war. This is why Klingon's respect humans to some degree. Humans are weak and fragile for the most part compared to many other species and because of this they commit the worst acts of cruelty. Yet they also have honor codes and fight with passion. All things klingon's respect. majority of the badness of klingon's really is misplaced emotion. ANd is what i would expect any Space fairing Empire to embrace to keep a Effective and strong military.
Just think of all the millions of dead bodies that would’ve happened if they took worfs advice 🤣
@@samsoofi9588 think about how many problems would have been solved
I think it was also the fact that by this point he was very used to how things are done in star fleet. So an order like that, which goes against the ideals of the federation was a surprise to him. Although you can see that he gave no objections, he was just waiting to see if it was a bluff, as soon as he saw sisko was serious he was like "well damn, looks like we're finally doing things properly!" and just got on with it :P
That's the Worf Effect in full force.
For those who haven’t seen the episode, Sisko here is playing a bit of a role. He’s realized that Eddington sees himself as the hero and Sisko as a tragic villain, too obsessed with law and order to see what he’s become.
Sisko decided that Eddington is too much of a threat to leave walking free, so he plays into Eddington’s beliefs, being the bad guy so Eddington will be the hero. A good hero always sacrifices himself to save innocents, so Sisko threatens innocents to prevent Eddington waging a protracted guerrilla campaign that would end with more death and destruction.
This. You can see it in Eddingtons talk about Javert while there's a damn war crime taking place; dude thought he was in a game. Sisko said "fair enough, I'll play too".
@@AStrangeWindmill To be honest, Eddington always struck me as a little bit detached from reality ;p
@@alcohol-freebeer3642 I stopped feeling sympathy for the Maquis when Quark convinced that Vulcan to help Starfleet using logic. The problem with the Starfleet officers helping the Maquis is that they still thought like Starfleet officers. They were fighting a righteous cause and will carry on until victory. They would only settle with only victory.They ignored that they were a small band of rebels with a population less than a million people.
You can't force a regional power to recognize you when you are just an annoyance at best.
The Federation must have a population of close to a trillion people. I am willing to bet that even the Cardassians never attacked the Federation deep enough to convince the Federation to use the full might of Starfleet.
He also turned an entire colony into refugees and probably created at least a couple of future Edingtons - though they wouldn't have the benefit of the starfleet training the real Eddington had.
Without this context, Sisko does come off as unreasonable and a little mad.
"Let me tell you something about Hew-mans, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes."
-Quark
Who wouldn't tho
@@antlife1930 My comment was deleted for some reason, but I said the same. In survival mode we will do anything to survive.
This comment needs more upvotes. Sadly I can only offer one of my own,
Well the behaviors of every Trek species is some aspect of humanity amplified.
"Do you know what the trouble is? The trouble is Earth, on Earth there is no poverty, no crime, no war. You look out the window of Starfleet Headquarters and you see paradise. It's easy to be a saint in paradise..." --- Sisko
When a Klingon and a Bajoran are confused about your order, you know things are getting real.
Dude, that wasn't just confusion; that was sheer terror.
She was in the resistance, this chick blew people up and all sorts and she's like..."Hol' up. Wut?"
Facts. lol
Facts
Sisko had no chill!
"Would you prefer another target, a _military_ target? Then name the system!"
- Grand Moff Tarkin
Literally the same energy as Captain Sisko in this scene.
the empire were the good guys all along
Nobody hassles the hoff…. I mean, the "moff".
@@omiorahman6283 You are correct... funny how 30 years after ROTJ the rebels were still.... rebelling.
@@thegreatbamboozler4837 empire means order.
Jedi means corruption nepotism,familycide and chaos .
@@omiorahman6283 soooo....Trump is a Jedi and we should have heard "I did not...use...the Dark Side...of the force...on that woman!" Back in '96??? WOOOWWWW. ALL IS BEING REVEALED!!!!😱🤪
"YOU BETRAYED YOUR UNIFORM!" is one of the all-time line reads, Trek or not. Brooks is such a tremendous talent.
“And you’re betraying yours, right now! The sad part is you don’t even realize it. I feel sorry for you, captain….this obsession with me….look what it’s cost you.”
Eddington is such a hypocrite.
I remember in Spencer For Hire
" I am working for you, Spencer may act real dumb, but he's got a mean right hand"
His delivery was spot-on. Makes me hate Eddington's character even more. He was an egotist and a traitor with federation blood on his hands. He deserved all the hate he got.
@@PrinceAsbel He deserved the hate, that innocent colony and planet didn't.
He says as he commits genocide. Sisko should have been stripped from command and sentenced to life in a penal colony.
Avery Brooks is incredible. He was doing autographs at a convention I went to in 2013. I asked him to sign my script of the final episode, and I had wanted him to sign it in a specific spot next to the "to the finest crew..." dialogue . He took it from me and I pointed to the line. In his absolute pissed off Sisko voice, he goes "WAIT A MINUTE"! He wanted to read the entire page first so he could choose where he wanted to sign it. He signed it where I originally asked, but I will never forget the Sisko tone he used with me. This clip reminds me of that day, and I still get chills that I too, got yelled at by Captain Sisko.
I love this story.
Wow that's awesome :)
Class act!
Cause Sisko was just a less stoned Brooks.
Oh, so he was reading it just in case it was a sneaky contract
When a Klingon thinks it's too much you know shit is getting dark.
Though tbf worf was no normal Klingon. I’m sure martok or gowron wouldnt have an issue with it.
@@JakeBritton94 They likely would have had an issue with it actually. It was made very clear the Klingons don't look kindly on attacking civilians, they also wouldn't be attacking civilian targets, as the Klingons would likely be able to just crush the Maquis with little effort. What's a Maquis Raider but a weak Bird of Prey.
Make no mistake the Klingons are fully willing to destroy the home world of a creature to get rid of it, like the Tribbles, but they don't burn down random civilian planets for fun. Where is the Honor in it?
Sisko became a monster with the order he gave and the entire Bridge crew along with him, because none of them stopped him. Sisko had clearly gone insane and needed to be removed from command, and is likely why he isn't captaining the Defiant when it goes to battle the Borg in First Contact. He was likely temporarily stripped of command of the Defiant because of his actions.
@@Stephen__White . Martok or Gowron would have done the same thing only much sooner. The episode would only be half as long.
A Klingon tempered by human values. Kurn might have approved. Lol
@@Stephen__White I don't think you've seen the full context of the episode. Sisko purposely played a moral villains story to draw Eddington out, because Eddington was playing a self-believing martyrs role in the defense of his cause.
In order to prevent the conflict from getting even more bloody and drawn-out Sisko baited Eddington into the path which saved the most conflict in the long term.
Sisko *gave* Eddington the opportunity to be a martyr for his cause, and Eddington took it.
Mr. Worf, do you see those Maquis?
-Yes, sir
I don't want to.
-Aye sir.
lmfao
Hahahahahaa!!!
you know shit hits the fan when even the Klingon is like "Dude WTF!"
@Abishek Warhammer 40k. It's the artillery meme
@@PeoplecallmeLucifer lmao
When Sisko punches Q in season 1 and said "I'm not Picard", you just know somewhere down the line in the series he would do badass shit like this.
What episode is that😅can u provide a link
@@frankdeleon4209 ua-cam.com/video/wxN45AZtTEo/v-deo.html
Q said he was going to have fun with sisko but never bothers him again. He didn’t like that getting punched was the only reaction he v was ever going to get out of sisko.
First episode@@frankdeleon4209
@@Direwolf1166Or Q understood instantly that Sisko had right amount of savagery and barbarism in himself to led humanity into survival in inhospitable deep space. Picard was too soft ant too naive to be left alone, he needed guidance in order to not kill himself and the crew. Sisko did not.
I laughed when worf was like, "bruh don't you think you're being a little too violent here?
When even a Klingon is shocked by your bloodlust and is trying to calm you down, you're on a whole nother level of gratuitous violence.
To be fair. Worf is far from a proper example of Klingon bloodlust.
@@DazzlinFlame I suspect even Martok would balk at the prospect of poisoning an entire planet. Gowron on the other hand...
@@fix0the0spade 100! gowron wouldnt hesitate. No one is more dangerous than a Klingon politician.
Rofl my azz off!!!!!! Worf, bruh calm down
@Kyle Mouttet For most Klingons killing an opponent in a fair fight is one thing.But to potentially wipe out civilians.That is crossing a line.
Picard: Can we get some peaceful yet effective diplomacy?
Sisko: No, we have diplomacy at home
Hey Sisko was willing to stay the velvet-glove approach... right up until Eddington started with the Biological Warfare. Then he had enough.
Sisko: I call this, 'Gun Boat' diplomacy
I needed this. Ty
Aggressive negotiations
Sisko said in one episode, earth is the paradise, the utopian but here we are at front line.
"I've only just begun. I'm going to eliminate every Maquis colony in the DMZ" - Arguably the most stone cold delivery in DS9.
Possibly contested by the last line in In the Pale Moonlight, where Sisko says "I can live with it."
@@AnIdiotAboard_ Duet is probably the best episode of DS9 (this is my hill, I will die on it), but his best line was by far
"Don't you see; it doesn't change anything! Kill me. Torture me… it doesn't matter. You've already lost, Major. You can never undo what I've accomplished. The dead will still be dead!"
the dude was absolutely laser like precise with his barbs to get her to execute him. Dismissing everything her resistance cell had done and reminding her of all the people they failed all at once.
You mistake a stoned cold delivery with talentless acting.
@@seventyfive7597 SLEVENTY GET OUT OF MY COMMENTS YOU HACK
cuz Benjamin was NOT remotely bluffing. lol
During The Dominion War, Sisko was so respected by his superiors that they rallied around him. Starfleet valued his leadership so greatly that they allowed Sisko to quietly orchestrate many tactical aspects of The Dominion War. The Federation was sustaining HEAVY losses of personnel and equipment. It was Sisko who successfully fought off The Klingons at DS-9 and then convinced The Klingons to rejoin The Federation. It was Sisko who had a hand in crafting the scheme that caused The Romulans to break their non aggression treaty with The Dominion and fight alongside The Federation. It was Sisko who urged the Federation forces ahead during the battle above Cardassia Prime that eventually brought an end to Dominion War. It could be argued that without Benjamin Sisko, The Federation does not win The Dominion War. Kirk and Picard were good at winning battles. Sisko turned the tide of a war The Federation was losing badly and brought victory to The Federation. When a war must be won, give me Sisko and Janeway. Janeway defeated The Borg and all other combatants on her own with a ship that hadn't been properly upgraded or serviced since it departed from DS-9.
And i thought it was in the script.
@@SkinPeeleR As a writer ✍🏼 I can tell you it's always about the script. But the script is only part of the magic. In truth the fine words on the pages of the script would die an unrealized death 💀☠️ without the highly skilled actors who breathe life and personality into them. Sisko's words, demeanor and delivery made the viewing audience forget that his words were scripted. The script called for Sisko to be at his best under adverse conditions and Avery Brooks' performance delivered beautifully.
@@altowatts1325 You're right. I was being an ass.
@@SkinPeeleR*ALTHOUGH as much of a hardass as Janeway is and will always be, that ending has never felt really earned or built up to. It feels like we're entering the Voyager redemption era, to an extent, but a whole lot of the fandom at time of release felt that Dark Renegade Future Janeway giving them Future Hax so they could blow away the franchise bigbad on a genocidal scale like they were tying up a loose plot thread felt pretty flimsy and rushed, especially considering how hard they'd been leaning into the "I, Borg" angle for the last few seasons.
It makes sense considering he wasn't really completely Ben Sisko, but rather a prophet taken down into a corporeal and linear state of being. He was literally sent by creatures that exist outside of time to do those exact things. Or more precisely, he was sent by himself to do all of those things.
Even after all of it was over, think of how many things he had to go in time to arrange so it would all fit into this particular point in time. The regular prophets had no concept of cause and effect. He had to physically go back in time and make sure every mention of the Prophets in Bajoran history was there for him to find later and use to win that specific war.
Masterful storytelling.
It was a giant game of Bill and Ted's excellent adventure in space.
"Remember to go back in time and put the keys right behind this...!"
"Here they are Ted."
"Excellent!"
"Mr Worf, you see those Maquis down there?"
"Yes sir..."
"I no longer want to."
Lol thats badass
Like one of the Ship commanders on SG-1 'Weapons officer make that cruiser go away'
cover your eyes sir
“You didn’t see those Maquis.”
“I did”
“You didn’t… you didn’t! Because they’re not there!”
Sisko: "Major, shut that thing off! Commander Worf prepare to launch torpedoes!"
Worf: "Aye sir, but we're still 45 minutes away from the planet"
"WELL, THEN, YOU'LL HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO PREPARE, WONT YOU, MISTER WORF!?"
Hilarious
Sisko: "Did I stutter?"
😆😆😆😆😆😆
YOU'RE OVERTHINKING IT!! 😂😂😂
Sisko went from being Commander of a neglected outpost to being the center of an intergalactic war. This is like Ulysses S. Grant going from shopkeeper to Commanding General of the Union.
And commanding the first Starfleet warship.
Hahah basically. Bruh was a badass for sure. Ironically he is the most spiritual of all the main Captains!
He has the stubbornness of Janeway, the defiance of Kirk, the indomitable will of Picard, and the heart of gold like Pike. Captain Benjamin Sisko is without a doubt worthy of his place in the pantheon of legendary Starfleet Captains, who would even go against Starfleet's rigid regulations and general orders for the greater good.
@Alex But the dominion fleet of jem'hadar being so obedient ruined the show. A group of soldiers not rebelling against the weak vorta is something they should have played on more.
Might be Grant-esque in that way, but he wages war like Sherman. Scorched. Fuckin’. Earth.
The real excellence of this move comes out towards the end of the episode when it is revealed that the biogenic weapons that the maquis used against cardassian settlers and the trilithium used by Sisko are not actually harmful to the other species and so the 2 groups were able to simply swap planets.
I don't remember that part, is that true?
@@Liedson9000 yes
Brilliant. Thank you for the context.
I heard the "Defiant" got it's name because "Siskos Righteous Bitch Slap" wouldn't fit on the side of the ship.
U win the Internet for the week, enjoy.
No, it was going to be called "USS Ben Sisko's Muthafucking Pimp Hand".
So I take it you watch SFDebris?
The side of the ship? It barely fits INSIDE the ship.
YES!!!!! SF Debris strikes again!!!
People forget that Eddington claimed that the Maquis wanted the Federation to "Leave [them] alone". The problems with that: the Maquis didn't leave the Federation alone, and Eddington wanted a war and had a hero/martyr complex.
Sisko gave him exactly what he wanted. Turns out, it wasn't what he wanted after all.
Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.
This episode also makes it clear that Sisko is committing a war crime over a personal vendetta. It's neither a count against the character _as a fictional character_ nor a count against _Deep Space Nine._ The show was ahead of its time in genre TV because it allowed its characters to make big mistakes while keeping the audience's overall sympathy.
No, they Maquis only messed with the Federation when the federation came after them. They wanted to be left alone, the Cardassians and the Federation kept coming after them. They formed to defend themselves against the Cardassians who kept coming after them, then when the Cardassians whined to the Federation about the Federation Citizens in the DMZ daring to defend themselves, the Federation "had" to go after them because politics. The Federation should have said "LOL, too bad, you agreed to this when you agreed to let them stay in the DMZ. Have fun" Remember the Cardassians said "Leave us alone, we'll leave you alone" when the Federation and Cardassians renegotiated the treaty that put all those Federation Wolds inside Cardassian space. Turns out that was a lie. The Cardassians began to attack the colonists, and then complained to the Federation when the colonists defended themselves.
@@matt_1984_ It was more than attacking.They wanted to forcibly evict them so they would not have to share those former Federation colonies between cardassian settlers and people who were now officially federation expatriates.Today we would call that forced expulsion under international law.Frankly i think the Maquis are the baby of both the Federation and Cardassia.Any way you look at it it was a bad deal.The Maquis did not want to leave.The cardassians did not want them to stay.Conflict was inevitable.
sisko proved he was no better. genocide weapons verses genocide weapons in the hands of people willing too use them. sisko should be imprisoned for his actions but murderers supporter their kind as heros i guess
@@mouserr I doubt anyone in Star Fleet felt Sisko was a hero for his actions.But at the same time back at Star Fleet Head Quarters.I think it is safe to say they were of a divided opinion as to what exactly should be done about the Maquis.Also no one actually died even though Sisko only gave them a small window of warning.Under today's laws the most he could be charged with is forced displacement.
Eddington: "You're bluffing."
Captain Sisko: "Do I LOOK like Picard to you?!"
To be fair, Picard doesn't bluff, either.
@@danieldickson8591 Picard most definitely bluffs. Matter of fact, he threatened to resign from Starfleet and they called his bluff, that's how he ended up in retirement. He also bluffed when he commanded the USS Stargazer, the tactic was called the Picard Maneuver which was used to fool a attacking ship just long enough to gain a critical advantage. You would already know these basic facts if you stayed a virgin.
I mean, they * are * both bald.
Picard was a master tactician. He lacked the sheer willing brutality that Sisko displayed on several occasions. I found that Picard, at times, was hamstringed by his morals while Sisko decided that if human morals couldn't serve the greater good, then they were beneath him and went his own path. Two totally different men. I love the variety in command! It's just fantastic.
@@dovemilhon7035 That's why I hate Picard. You watched The Wounded? The one where Picard threatens to murder hundreds of his fellow Starfleet officers to save the vile, cunning and deceptive Cardassians? That was when I decided that Picard was a terrible character. Such a holier-than-thou complex.
"For the Uniform" and "In the Pale Moonlight" are the best Star Trek I've ever seen. Nothing will ever top DS9 for me.
Aye!
agree. After DS9 I prefer Voyager to TNG
It's Avery Brooks performance against phenomenal writing, unmatched to this day.
In the Pale Moonlight is the highest rated star trek episode on IMDB (in any season except for some Star Trek: Picard finale ones but those haven't stood the test of time yet).
In the Pale Moonlight is probably the best Star Trek episode of all
I cant imagine how lethal sisko would be in the terran empire
In that alternate universe, Sisko's a leering, opportunist psychopath who may or may not have grown a conscience. To the credit of the TV episode that depicts him, it's not altogether clear whether that Sisko rebels against authority because he's a better man than he seems to be, or because he's a prideful, impulsive egotist who's sick of playing house-pet to a preening dictator.
Zerg OP. Please nerf.
i mean... The Sisko can handle his own against a klingon warrior or two...and it's not even his final form. :3
I shudder at that thought
@Who Cares was. He dead now
One thing to keep in mind about this scene is the context - the reason Eddington keeps calling Sisko "Javert" is because he sees himself as Jean Van Jean - the hero of the story, that is. And he sees Sisko as the antagonistic villain that he must continuously outwit in order to win. So what does Sisko do?
Simple - he plays the role that Eddington gives him. He deliberately makes himself APPEAR to be a bloodthirsty madman hellbent on capturing Eddington, no matter the cost, because that would in turn give Eddington the opportunity to play the role of martyr - the man who heroically, selflessly, turned himself in in order to spare his people the madman's rage.
Sisko basically tricked Eddington into turning himself over. He knew that what Eddington wanted most was a Federation villain, so he endeavored to give him exactly what he wanted.
Wonderfully said. Also, I believe this was a "this isn't the time man," timing issue. The dominion, cardassians, & klingons are all posing separate threats. Sisqo literally has no time for this shit.
I honestly don't think Sisko was playing chess here. I think he became legitimately unhinged in his need to stop Eddington because he duped Sisko personally multiple times. It became an obsession.
If he'd turned himself over BEFORE Sisko fired at the planet and Sisko revealed he never had any intention of firing them then I could see it.
He basically declared his strategy beforehand.
Mmmm. He didn’t PRETEND to poison an entire planet.
I think he showed why did this. The Macquis broke the rules and the UFP showed what happens when they play without rules
I would’ve loved to see the end of this scene when Dax says to Sisko “I’m surprised Star Fleet Authorizes this” Sisko “I knew there was something I forgot to do”
Oh my god I actually fell over laughing when I read this. Thank you for not ranting about having "the moral high ground"!
@@campbelldowler1396 That's what I loved about Sisko. Picard was so stuffy, always making some haughty speech from his moral high ground. Sisko is more like "I don't have time for that. I need to get shit done."
@@carmensavu5122 True. That's why he's my favourite Captain!
@@carmensavu5122 Or in this case, screaming "COMMANDER, LAUNCH TORPEDOES!"
@@campbelldowler1396 Mine too!😊
Worf and Kira are horrified but Dax just gets on with it, subtle but effective show of how loyal Dax is to Sisko
And a warning to how dangerous loyalty can be.
@@MrBrock314 In a time of war, hesitating on an order can mean the difference between victory and defeat.
It's not so much about loyalty, rather it demonstrates that although easy-going at times, Dax is truly a cold-blooded killer (perhaps due to its unique perspective of living so many lives. Perhaps Dax doesn't view "death" with the same finality as singular lifetime beings do).
Whereas, Worf has been softened to be more human-like, and not so quick to kill everyone in order to solve every problem.
It wasn't loyalty. It was that as the most experienced member of the crew, and the one with the most life experience, she realized it was the correct thing to do.
After two lifetimes of friendship, first as a mentor, then best friend, Dax trusts Sisko and vice versa. Dax understands the complexity of command and that choices have to be made when you wear that uniform because that's what she taught him as Curzon. She also knows not to subvert a commanding officer's orders and despite their informality with one another Sisko is her superior. She wouldn't countermand or criticize him even if she disagreed with his decision, (though she'd likely dress him down privately afterwards if it warranted that).
I'd argue it's less loyalty to Sisko, though she *is*, rather a loyalty to the chain of command and a mutual understanding that the choices the commander makes are theirs to live with.
Nog also.
Kirk - The Pioneer
Picard - The Paragon
Janeway - The Compassionate
Sisko - The Necessary
101% correct
One small change
Sisko - The Intrusive
Janeway compassionate? You must have been watching a different show.
Sisko - The Mack Daddy
Kirk the Rebel. Picard the Diplomat. Sisko the Fighter. Janeway the Adventurer. Archer the...... sorry never watched that show. Maybe the Pioneer??
In times of peace you'd want Picard.
In times of war you'd want Sisko.
"Nobody loves a warrior until the enemy is at the gates."-African Proverb
Archer was quite good in time of war. Kirk was respected as a warrior and famous for his bluffs and being a ladies man
In times of either, you would want TNG Picard.
No, I'd still prefer Picard.
What happenend to "I will make them pay for what they´ve done"
DS9 is my favorite show ever, but man I feel like this decision warranted an entire season of fallout and it's basically never mentioned again.
The Maquis were not popular with the Federation either, with Ethrington being even worse as he did not at least resign his post, even using it to steal replicators.
Also, the biggest war ever in the galaxy going on kind of swept that under the carpet.
Honestly the low-light of that episode was Dax's offhand comment at the end absolving Sisko of the crime he committed. In the Pale Moonlight explores Sisko's moral compass so beautifully and intelligently. This had the same potential, but they instead chose to just... forget about it, I guess. It's a shame.
Or the episode where Sisko "tricked" or "lied" (whatever your preference) the Romulans into an alliance with the Federation against the Founders ?
That IS "In The Pale Moonlight". You should give it a rewatch, and compare how they handle the ethical dilemma/resulting consequences to this one. ITPM is masterful. This one feels like a great jazz show that ends with a flat trumpet blast.
@@AstralMarmot You're absolutely correct! I was actually commenting on@AJ comment. Didn't see yours... I was told they actually continued story in book form (which book I don't know) with Sisko coming clean to Starfleet. Was told it wasn't that good. But then, novels aren't considered canon, soooo...
I kinda liked that only Sisko and Garak were the only ones in the know. Added something to Sisko, and the show, I liked more so than others.
“shut that thing off!" My favorite Sisko moment period.
the crew didn't follow his orders on this they actually waited after the hologram/display told them to wait
Another favorite of mine is when he says to Gowron "My shields are holding, your boarding parties are contained and my reinforcements are a lot closer than yours. Now what should I tell them, to stand down or come in firing?"
4:02
@@tkx7They were briefed of his plan.
Better than "Shut up Wesley!"? Picard still wins with his Captain Ahab-esqe rant about the Borg.
Cardassians be like "oh I love this show."
Are you keeping up with the Cardassians?
Leonardo diCaprio pointing meme
@@Lrbearclaw lmfao
@@Lrbearclaw nice
Are like didn't you go to school
This is actually a good lesson. It showcases how people who set aside the rules of engagement are suddenly suprised when you also set aside yours. I, personally don't think this makes Sisko the bad-ass Captain of the year, but it does make him human.
It does make him human, but it also makes him a warcriminal and it demonstrates why there need to be "rules" in warfare. All sides were capable of blowing each other up using their conventional weapons. But once one side uses bioweapons and another starts to gas civilians and the third side is cardassia, you have a major shitshow were nobody really wins even if they are the last man standing
True.
The worst pieces of shit like the marquis always whine the most when they start being handled the way they deserve.
But Eddington was engaged in revolution to save his homeworld, so this is clearly an allegory for the Jews against the Palestinians... WRITTEN by Jews.
@@hannahmadden3573 what in the actual fck?
Once the genie is out of the bottle, it is very hard to put it back in. I'm guessing it's one of the reasons that even the Nazis never stooped to using poison gas in any military operations.
I imagine Garek standing on the side with wide open eyes full of admiration.
Why would a simple tailor admire this?
@@Eidenhoek lol I can picture a grin on his face
Don't forget Garek was exactly the same person in the Mirror Universe
@@Eidenhoek Have you actually watched this show?
@@beauxr.benoit1374 Yeah. Dude's just a tailor.
>_>
The most dangerous man isn't the man who makes threats. It's the man who keeps promises.
Q: "You hit me...Picard never hit me!" Sisko: "I'm not Picard."
That's such a bad episode, LOL
They need to bring Q back smh
and then Q never returned to DS9
@@digitool5944 because unlike on the Enterprise D sisko didn't give him a reason to return Sisko would not play Q's game and that's why he never came back "it wasn't any fun" :P
It was pretty much this
Q:Hi
Sisko: Get the *7%$ off my station!
Q;make me
Sikso: Punches Q
Q: this isn't fun, i'm going back to the enterprise D their actually fun to toy with.
@@sheilaolfieway1885 and then start annoying Janeway
The scary part is that there was no repercussions to this... that means that the Federation sanctioned it.
War-time in deep space. Not necessarily sanctioned.
The Maquis were a huge problem for Starfleet, I imagine quite a few people breathed a sigh of relief after this.
The Dominion allying with Cardassia made the point rather moot. The Maquis were slaughtered by the Dominion and the only survivors were a small group that Eddington helped escape and the Maquis integrated into Voyager's crew.
Not scary. Necessary.
Agreed. War crime against a civilian target. Completely fucking up a planet's ecosystem for 50 years.
This is part of what led to the setting Picard is in.
This is an awesome scene.
Deep Space Nine pierced the bubble of starfleets perfect morality without destroying the good it actually stands for.
perfect.
Sadly, I can only admit that DS9 absolutely destroyed Starfleet's image of morality. This is why I didn't like it as a teenager in the 90s. Once TNG hit "Chains of Command" in Season 6 and DS9 continued that thread with things like Section 31 and leaking the information that the Romulans and Cardassians used to try to destroy the Founders' home planet (while Starfleet sat on their butts and watched) and the despicable way the Federation betrayed the Maquis for their own selfish interests (hence why I nicknamed Admiral Nakamura "Admiral Scumbag"), I felt Starfleet was an abomination I would have wanted nothing to do with if I lived in their universe. A society without a moral compass, one that they adhere to even when things are tough or the enemy is not bound by such morality, is a society doomed to rot and fall. You can see the results of this society in Star Trek Picard. Even Star Trek Renegades (which came before it) could do no better with what they were left to work with at the end of DS9. Avery Brooks played the part VERY well, but the act of surrendering your morality and attacking innocent people to "get your man" is not service to a uniform. It is betraying all that it stands far even more than Eddington ever could. Starfleet was simply too far gone at that point for it to matter, though.
If there's one super-power our people have, it's the ability to make any paradise into a dystopia, and we always do so in the same very predictable ways. How does it start? One group lifts themselves over another group of people. Then, the "lesser" people strike back, and "greater" people 'punish' them for it. The "lesser" people raise their martyrs on a flag and the attacks crescendo into ever-greater viciousness until one side is basically destroyed. Then, the winning side starts oppressing someone else, and the whole cycle starts all over again like hamsters running on a hamster wheel. Welcome to human history... and fiction. -.-
@@Quagthistle 1) Section 31 was a rogue element of the Federation, and often at odds with members of Starfleet.
2) The Federation was on the verge of collapse, genocide, and enslavement at the hands of the Dominion and Borg - two extremely, uh, not so good people to want to live with. The fact that any of the members of Starfleet even considered morality at that point, and tried to avoid getting their hands dirty, is a testament to their character and the Federation's values.
If you fight a war where your people and way of life are on the brink of destruction, your hands will get dirty.
Sisko and Bashir argue a lot about these topics actually, especially in Statistical Probabilities where Bashir was advocating complete surrender to save lives.
@@ebannaw it didn't matter if it was rogue group of starfleet it didn't matter. The federation thought itself better than societies that still valued individual morality and principles. They saw themselves as a society on a pedestal. When they did that they became conflicted because they could never understand why some societies were still fighting over different principles and values. They also never understood the maquis for what they really where. Freedom fighters that finally took a stand against the constant political decisions to leave its people far out the way unnoticed and forgotten by those enjoying paradise.
@@shahidulkhan9566 you forget that the maquis did the exact same thing as Sisko to a Cardassian colony,
Literally the same thing
DS9 remains greatly misunderstood and hugely underrated by the mainstream. Kirk and Picard represented aspects of Starfleet and the Federation.
Sisko took it all to a different level which has not been seen properly since.
Hats off to Avery Brooks, for his highly complex and deeply spiritual portrayal of Benjamin Sisko.
The best for me, by far!
Kirk and Picard win, lose, or draw, success or failure got to move onto another system and another planet. Sisko's decisions and action had lasting effects, the characters in that show had relationships not just interactions.
I believe Strange New Worlds is Comparable.
@@contrafax not even close. SNW is great, and is my favorite show as of late, but it doesn't tell a captivating story like DS9 does.
@@captainstarcat We will see, I don't recall the first two Seasons of DS9 being that good. In the case of both shows the story telling was excellent and why I hung around till season 3. Damn fat fingers. I meant season 3.
Remember kids, Sisko punched Q, an omnipotent space-god, in the face because he was tired of his BS.
Note to yourself: *DO NOT PISS HIM OFF!*
I still maintain theres a good chance Sisko punched Q because he knew Q would get bored and go back to bothering someone else
@Asmodeus04 lol Q let Sisko punch him. Do people not remember Q literally killed off several main characters in TNG just to teach them a lesson and brought Picard back to life? Maybe the real Sisko is actually the baseball and the one we see in all the episodes is the replacement Q made.
Don't fuck with the space Jesus
@@uni4rm as Q was never explored in DS9 beyond that one appearance, we don't know why he was happy to sit out through all of what's going on - the writers didn't want to use the character, which is fair, but I always wondered if his last words on the show hinted that the writers had indeed thought about the implications of Q within the DS9 story - for example, what kind of interactions would the Prophets have with a Q? 'You're much easier to provoke [than Picard]... how fortunate for me.'
I think they either figured that Q would have no or limited ability to go against the Prophets, and Sisko being where he is means that Q doesn't have to get involved anymore, as Sisko would be up for the fight that I'm sure Q knew was coming down the line... or it's a throwaway line that was meant to hint that Q might have found ways to cause real mischief with Sisko's short fuse, in just plain-old Q style. Who knows.
"It's easy being a saint when you live in paradise"
But not as easy as not acting like a Nazi and following federation and star fleet rules when facing opposition.
@@guywithdacap4713 where do you get natzi u idiot
@@mattjones6578 Probably from the attempted mass murder and displacement of hundreds of thousands of innocent people just to prove a point.
It’s never “easy” to maintain your principles, because they are by nature inconvenient. It’s just that sometimes it’s harder than others. And those times are when you see who really believed in them and who did not.
@@nicolasg7601 a true hero puts there morels aside for the greater good
When you make a Klingon stop and stare, thinking "are you serious?!", you know you're not a push over.
Sisko's response: RESPECT MY GANGSTA! I'M FROM NEW ORLEANS, AND WE DON'T LET NO SHIT RIDE!!!
All three (Worf, Kira and Jadzia) each had a look. Worf for Sisko being aggressive, Kira as far as the Emissary killing and Dax for her former host’s loyal friend going against Starfleet’s ideals.
And Dax, who knows him best just looks and thinks “shit, he’s serious.”
Worf once told Jadzia that Sisko intimidates him. Ezri confirmed this in season 7.
That's when you know you've gone to far.
Something to keep in mind is that Eddington obviously didn't really understand the huge consequences of what he had done since he had such a hero complex. So Sisko was just as much making it clear to Eddington that, "What you do has real consequences." as he was acting out of a grudge. Was it a brutal, heavy-handed response? Yes. Was it necessary to stop Eddington? Possibly. That's what made DS9 interesting was that there many situations where there were no perfect, moral answers.
Don’t forget that Eddington also fired on a civilian ship that was just trying to evacuate the 2nd poisoned planet.
Like that’s a level of genocide right there: poisoning a place where civilians live and then shooting at the people trying to flee.
Like Sisko *had* to stop Eddington right there and then. Otherwise you literally are enabling continuing killing of civilians trying to flee.
@@Ceece20 Eddington doing wrong does not absolve Sisko here...he is supposed to be better, Star Fleet Captains are supposed to be the example in the darkness. He often walked the line, but crossed it here.
@@Jake-cm9jj as Sisko said, Eddington and the Maquee had become an intolerable threat to the safety and security of the Federation and the Peace. You don’t get to complain about not being a saint when you are trying to stop genocide of civilians. By firing on a civilian escape craft and disabling (two) federation ships, not to mention poisoning 2 planets, Eddington had to be taken down.
If he had to be taken down hard and as a result the Maquee had to move to a new planet, that’s their fault and the consequences of their actions, not Sisko’s or the Federation.
@@Ceece20 But that's the whole point of the Federation and Star Fleet...they don't stoop to the enemy's level. They are the ideal form of what we can be. We've seen many episodes of trek where a rogue star fleet captain did something not even this bad and the main story of the episode was to take them down.
I'm not arguing that his solution wasn't viable, sure it seemed to work....I'm just saying that he should have been court marshalled for it if he was held to the same standards they held other star fleet captains throughout the shows.
@@Jake-cm9jjI'm saying that even Starfleet cannot let a genocidal maniac go killing civilians and attacking their ships just because "it isn't a nice method". That would be compliant with genocide to let it occur. Sisko did what Starfleet is expected to do if not fulfilling the ideal form.
Marquee got what was coming to them and they deserved losing the planet. That was the consequence of their action for being genocidal terrorists who openly shoot down civilians trying to escape.
Worf and Kira are shocked, but Dax...while maybe disappointed, just accepts it and does her job.
She knew what he was going to do.
Adam Young, you are correct, but Dax is 300 years old...she has seen it all.
But in the scene before and after it’s clearly shown that what he does makes peace, doesn’t kill anyone and allows for both the Maquis and the Cardassians to switch planets and settle on the planets that are on the right sides of the demilitarized zone
Given Dax's age, I think it's a really neat and fairly subtle detail.
@@NestorCaster You're correct, but I don't think the people here are interested in hearing it.
For every DS9 clip that deals with something morally ambiguous (this episode, In the Pale Moonlight, anything to do with Section 31, etc), the comments are full of people low-key getting off on having their cynical worldviews validated - even if the full context of the show doesn't actually support them.
People can talk shit all they want about Avery Brooks' acting. Dude oozes intensity, which was perfectly appropriate for his character. They made him the anti-Picard, which is exactly what the series needed.
Ehh he has intensity but as far as acting goes he was by far the worst actor of the main characters on ds9. There wasn't even a close second
+Chris Myer I disagree, my friend...Brooks as Sisko was my fav captain on my fav of the STs. Great actor. Hammed it up a lot (almost as much as Shatner), but still my fav
+Chris Myer Jake Sisko. Far worse.
Avery Brooks is perfect in this role.
Jake Sisko grows immensly throughout the series. He definitely started off really bad though.
Avery makes a great Sisko. He's intense and emotional and he really does put his own mark on the character. It's clear that the doesn't intend to play him as your general "run of the mill" starship captain, but instead went with a theatrical approach, which I actually appreciate.
Don't forget that Eddington had just done EXACTLY THIS to a Cardassian colony, and brushed off any complaints by saying it was just part of war. Yet somehow Sisko doing the same thing to a Maquis colony is an unforgiveable act of evil. Dude can stuff his smug moral superiority right up the orifice he excreted it out of.
Oh. So what you're saying is that two wrongs make a right. Yeah, that's not how it works.
There seems to be a lot of people around here missing that point. Whatever Starfleet was doing to contain the Maquis wasn't working and the Maquis' tactics were getting worse.
But Sisko got the job done, didn't he?
@@uni4rm obviously both of these acts are wrong (and I'd want both men tried for attempted genocide), but it does point out Eddington's Xenophobia and hypocrisy: he threatens the death of a civilian colony and he's a hero, someone else does the exact same thing for even less hostile reasons than him, and they're a monster.
... BOTH are unforgivable acts of evil.
I'm glad I never watched DS9 if this is who sisko turns out to be.
@@uni4rm he's not saying that. He's saying that the Maquis are being hypocritical.
What I love about Sisko is that you could straight up imagine him being a villain in a TNG episode. He is exactly the sort of captain that could clash with Picard, as he has a completely different mindset from him, and willing to compromise on his own ethics if he believes it will lead to the greater good in the future.
It was fitting that DS9's pilot began with thinly veiled hostility between Sisko and Picard, even if it was for different reasons than their personalities. It was also why many TNG fans had a hard time giving DS9 a chance at first. Hell some of them still haven't come around and still dislike it.
Two sides of the same coin: the Explorer and the Soldier 🪖.
I wished we got more with Picard and Sisko. I get why they didn’t but I feel like it would be intresting. Especially during the war the clash of how peace needs to be maintained with Sisko pointing out that it doesn’t always work like that
I am bewildered by people calling this a Badass Moment but despising Janeway for ending Tuvix
@@Liedson9000 People hate Janeway for that because it was a cold blooded murder of 1 man to save 2. Morally it is the same as killing a man to remove his organs for donations.
WHich when combined with the existance of Thomas Riker means she could have saved all 3 of them.
Imagine if Sisko was a captain back in the TOS era. Klingons would be in fear.
Worf fears him. That’s good enough.
TOS Klingon episode "Errand of Mercy" makes much the same point as this episode: Kirk is willing to go too far, with the lives of countless civilians lost, to satisfy his own anger and hunger for victory. Neither in the scene above nor in "Errand of Mercy" does Star Trek condone the captain's actions. The '60s show, like _Deep Space Nine,_ was at its best when it allowed its heroes to make mistakes, even big ones.
Organians would be in fear....
Troubles and Tribble-ations - Look it up :)
@@Dorian-_-Gray - I would not say it was a mistake to render a planet uninhabitable to humans. The Marquis were a threat to the Federation and to the Cardassians. Sisko did not kill a single person on that planet, they all evacuated the planet. What he did was make them homeless for a while. After the Marquis stopped their war, there was an exchange of planets. The one that Sisko made uninhabitable for humans, the Cardassians could live on. The ones that the Cardassians were living on, that was changed to be only habitable for humans, was given to the Marquis. It was not a mistake, but a tactic for peace, and it worked.
The absolute power of Siskos' "you betrayed your uniform" is still stunning to this day
IT WAS' WIN OR SURRENDER'..I WOULD HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO A CORRUPT, DECEITFUL TRAITOR..
Sisko knows he's betraying his uniform by doing what he's doing, but as he has said once before, the most damning part of it is I think I can live with it, I can love with it because I CAN live with it. All he does is no less than what Picard would do, only difference is Picard finds diplomacy a more, tasteful way. Sisko will do whatever is needed. I'm surprised that Sisko at some point wasnt recruited into section 31 because of how far he's willing to go for the "Security and Protection of the Federation". He honestly could be its poster boy much in the way captain America is for the American dream
And just think how'd it be if he could act!
@@seventyfive7597 No hate for him. Better of an actor than all of us XD
Yup, that's when the episode lets you know Sisko's gone too far for the wrong reasons-that this is a morally complex show that will let its hero make an egregious error over a personal vendetta.
The way I see each captain, Kirk was the adventurer and explorer, Picard was the diplomat and anthropologist, Janeway the scientist and innovator, and Sisko is the Tactician and Warrior. Not only did he punch Q, I bet there would be many Klingons that have great respect for Sisko; that's something not easily earned when it comes to Klingons.
Remember that Worf is intimidated by Sisko, that's probably more impressive
No love for Archer I see lol
@@Billchuck007 He's the captain who leaps during his free time... quantumly.
Tbf Picard also has the respect of Gowron (had), and could get essentially anything he wanted from him
Just remember, the Klingons FEARED Kirk. That makes Kirk, in my estimation, even more of a badass than Sisko!
Sisko's decision to publicly announce a campaign of war crimes was the moment he showed he had what it took to be a Starfleet admiral one day. All while sitting in his chair and spinning around like a bored Bond villain; definitely my favourite captain, though Janeway also had a crazed ruthless streak in her that could be unintentionally hilarious.
Also love the stares Sisko gets here from Worf and Kira, the two most hardened members of the DS9 crew IMO. Having it be one of the more young/inexperienced/naive characters would have cheapened the impact of that part of the scene.
No, he just transformed EVERY officer under his command into war criminals. A commanding officer is not just charged with the welfare and safety of his crew, but also molding these young men & women into responsible officers that will someday have others they will mold also. He could have created a chain of unethical officers that think the ends justifies the means. Just look how this type of behavior filters down throughout the Russian ranks where there are so many atrocities being committed.
@@REB4444 Is it a war crime if you give them every opportunity to evacuate? And then allow them to finally flee when they didn't get the message the first time?
@@REB4444 No he didn't. In Starfleet ship captains are given considerable leeway when operating significantly far away from the more established portions of the Federation. At this point in time the Maquis had basically declared their independence from the Federation even though the Federation had not and would not accepted it. Attacking a Starfleet flagged ship and making the biological equivalent of dirty bombs, the Maquis placed themselves on a platform that the Federation (who were working hard to not ignite an new war with Cardassian Empire) could not and would not tolerate. So operating under the rather broad directions of "Do not allow this grass roots separatist group to reignite a war between the Federation and Cardassian Empire." Sisko set about eliminating a group of domestic terrorists, who had made themselves an untenable threat to the Federation. I mean seriously, the Maquis basically attacked the real world equivalent of a Nuclear Weapons train, stole enough Nuclear Material to make dirty bombs, retreated to Guam, and started broad casting their intent to go nuke Russia to the world at large. If that didn't cause the US armed forces to employ scorched earth tactics to prevent WW3 I don't know what would!
Yes! When a former freedom fighter questions your actions….
Whatever you do in life, do not threaten Janeway or her starship family. You will pay a price, and you won't like it.
It takes a special man to give Worf pause before firing weapons
It takes a special man to intimidate Worf
on tng, worf was always asking if he could open fire on nearby ships only to be told no by picard. I could see him banging his console in frustration. This scene however even he is shocked as hoping sisko isnt serious.
That's the difference between Worf's relationship with Picard, and his relationship with Sisko:
Worf honored and respected Picard (like everyone did).
But while Worf respected Sisko as well, he was also a little afraid of him: Sisko crossed lines that Picard wouldn't and couldn't.
I think Worf always knew where he stood with Picard...but he was less certain with Sisko.
There was always a hard limit to what Picard would or would not do. Sisko had to be more "flexible".
Hell, he engineered a plot to trick the Romulans into joining the war against the Dominion: He consorted with spies and criminals, sold dangerous and illegal technology, had official documents forged, and inadvertently murdered a Romulan senator...
And he could live with it, because it had to be done.
Who wouldn't be intimidated by a person who is capable of that?
James Daniels
Well said
it also kind of made Sisko look bad, when Worf didn't immediately carry out the order to fire, he shouldn't have to give an order twice
When you get a Klingon to go "Damn....this dude is hardcore" in his mind, and his facial expression mirrors that, you know you're badass
More accurately: we're shown Worf's reaction so that we understand that even _he_ thinks Sisko is about to do something that is seriously morally wrong.
You damn right ,I just watched this an said holyshit!!!
I'm a ex- marine raider / ex-cage fighter and made me pause and rewind
To be honest Worf has been softened slightly by his federation experience, he may have learned a few things but they have definitly effected his Klingon spirit..
@@sheilaolfieway1885 agreed
@@sheilaolfieway1885 I think even an unsoftened klingon wouldn't like this. This is a very dishonourable attack.
When Darksied said
"They do not have the strength of character to destroy an entire planet to achieve success, but you? A human? You’d kill your own kind to win battles, an admirable quality"
He was talking about Sisko
Pretty sure it was Batman, lol.
@@samieltheinfamous kinda implied once he said Darksied. But yeah, I immediately thought of that too.
Hentai Surprise Batman is just Siskos alter ego.
@@Wertsir He's Sisko when it's useful.
Nope
Garek - "Captain, I feel I owe you an apology. I thought Starfleet was against using such tactics against an enemy bent on destroying to get what they want. Clearly, I was mistaken. Starfleet does have a set of fangs dripping with venom...and he's called Captain Benjamin Sisko."
“There may be hope for you yet.”
"You've betrayed your uniform!" That gave me chills. I wouldn't want to be yelled at by Sisko.
Major Lennox answered with his *life*! As you should have done if you had any sense of honour! You lost the Colours of the King of England! You disgraced us, sir. You shamed us, sir.
As Ezri pointed out, Sisko intimidates even Worf.
The federation are hypocrites
I want to study this just so I have a more commanding presence when I raise the volume.
"Picard fought The Borg. After they were done ruining his life, he sat in his office and drank tea. Then Sisko fought The Borg. After they were done ruining his life, he went and built a bunch of guns strapped to an engine and called it a warship. They only called it *The Defiant* because *Benjamin Sisko's Motherfucking Pimp Hand* wouldn't fit on the side.
+Apollomasque Dammit, what's that from? I know that line from somewhere.
James Austin
SF Debris.
+Apollomasque Which episode review is that from, do you recall? I wanna check it out!
+Darcy Fitzpatrick The Siege of AR-558
qhapaqinka Thanks!
Eddington: You can't just render an entire planet uninhabitable to humans!!
Sisko: Didn't you just do the same thing to a Cardassian planet yesterday?
Eddington: But I'm not Star Fleet!
Sisko: Star Fleet doesn't have warships either, but my pimphand has it's torpedos locked on your colony anyway.
I'm not sure you meant to make this point, but the Defiant serves the same purpose as Sisko does in this episode: it makes the fictional world of Star Trek richer and deeper by showing that Starfleet, and its officers, don't always adhere to their values, and when they don't, it risks changing both them and their society in ways that aren't always for the better.
It is war
@Xiao Luwan More like it needs to be understood that just because you have certain principles doesn't mean others will give a crap and won't try to destroy them. You have to defend them. This is what made DS9 so good that it showed that the utopian future of Star Trek isn't just something that was achieved and stands forever, but something that needs to be protected and worked on to stay alive.
@Xiao Luwan I think you're confusing "virtuous" and "pacifist".
"Haha trilithium go brrrrrrr"
-Captain Benjamin Sisko
This is one of the best moments of Sisko - he stands apart, willing to push morals past their limits for the greater good - he's not just a 'good guy' who'll always find the best solution - he's a realist who breaks down the problem and deals with it - working out what would make his opponent stop and doing it to stop potentially uncountable more casuality's if he hadn't - few Star-fleet captins would dare to make such a decision and it's honestly really impressive.
"The greater good". Would it be right to snatch random people off the street to harvest organs that could save the lives of 5, maybe more people?
Worf's moment of hesitation, then just being like "ya, alright." is so great.
I love Worf's respect of Picard and Sisko. Everyone deserves someone like that in their life.
Worf respected Picard and Sisco, but both Feared and Respected Sisco.
@@MAWUSIFITNESSTRAININGINC One of the reasons I dislike this episode. Warf clearly did not like this action and probably considered it dishonorable (which it really really is), but was cowed into doing it anyway. It ruins the character and makes him kind of a coward.
@@kevindonahue2251 As a Starfleet officer he must carry out legal orders.
@@kevindonahue2251Worf once said that "In war nothing is more honourable than victory." Besides it's not like any of the Maquis on the planet died. They had time to evacuate and we're given fair warning by Sisko. Nothing dishonourable about that. If Sisko gave the order to directly bombard the Maquis settlements with Quantum torpedoes I expect Worf would not have obeyed.
@@kevindonahue2251 Definitely the end of his integrity. Sisko, on the other hand, ended its own way earlier.
When a Klingon gives you the "Christ, are you serious?" look, you are officially not to be effed with.
You gotta love Worf's first reaction. He has no qualms about putting putting even more deadly substances on an antimatter warhead before launching it at someone; his only concern is that "we might miss."
I think it's the fact they were about to commit a war crime. Killing 100000 refugees to get one man is the kind of thing that gets you and your crew put behind bars, or executed. Could you imagine us gassing 100000 people even to get Osama back in the day? It's absurd.
Dude you are spot on. Worf's talking about ships being fast and maneuverable and SisKo is like "Dude I'm not targeting ships!"
@@Krystalmyth Watch the whole episode, this video is out of context. A few bullet points for you though;
1. He did not kill anybody, just evicted them from the planet. Even gave them a warning, they thought he was bluffing, their problem.
2. He did not commit war crime, he retaliated. The rebels used WMD (weapons of mass destruction) against multiple Cardassian colonies, from their on gloves were of, making ONE planet uninhabitable was less then a proportionate retaliation.
3. The Maqui attacked and disabled a federation ship, they are a paramilitary organisation, far from refugees. Your comparsion is actually spot on, they are like the Taliban or any other terrorist group.
4. The bottom line was stopping the Maqui to use WMDs and to stop them from attacking federation ships. Catching Eddington was just the icing on the cake.
@@FrankyLon 1: You don't have to kill anybody to commit war crimes. It's called a burned soil operation and was used by the Nazis in WW2. It was penalized in 1949 by the Geneva Conventions.
2: The use of biological/ chemical weapons was, universewise, outlawed in 2155. The use of such weapons is a crime irrespective the reason. So is the use of force against civilian population.
3: the same as 2. The use of such weapons against the taliban would be illegal, too.
4: Stopping them by noncriminal actions. Sometimes the job of an soldier or law inforcement officer is inconvenient, but this does not mean that he is above the law least of all above human rights.
Conclusion: Cpt. Benjamin Lafayette Sisko broke the laws of war in concious and malicious manner and must be court-martialed.
Guy Withdacap you’re assuming the Geneva Convention was brought back after WW3 and the disbanding of the many nations that led to the dark period they were in just prior to First Contact.
I always love DS9 for ditching the “perfect society” and allowing the crew to be conflicted and morally dubious. They feel more like real people than paragons of morality doing everything right in every episode and having some deep philosophical message about how they’re better than the enemy of the week.
everybody gangsta til sisko orders a war-crime.
Real fact: on present earth, using chemical weapons against your own citizens or un-uniformed insurgents isn't a war crime. No treaty forbids it. That's why you can CS your own people all day long, but launch a CS canister against enemy troops, and it's the Hague.
@@jwhippet8313 The Maquis stopped being Federation citizens after the Federation-Cardassia treaty
@@jwhippet8313 To supplement your point, it should also be noted that the tear gas used by regular law enforcement around the world is a banned chemical weapon under the Geneva Conventions. And yet: perfectly fine for domestic use.
@@Doogie2K3 Unlike tear gas, bullets aren't banned by any international convention. I'm glad that police don't use bullets to stop riots. You clearly seem to be against the use of tear gas on civilian rioters, but what would you want police to use in its place?
@@BoliceOccifer yes but bullets *are* a sensible replacement for tear gas
R.I.P Odo; May he find peace in the great link.
Nog also. I miss them both.
He didnt die. Why rip
@@malikapollard3618 the actor did
RIP Hamilton.
@@irontarkus6031 damn. I liked Odo. His show with William Shatner was good too.
"You just can´t shoot a hole in the surface of Solosos III"
Sisko: make it two
The Maquislayer!
I understood that reference!
I watched this on tv as a kid. When Sisko said “SHUT THAT THING OFF,” I jumped up to turn the television off.
Sisko was one of the best. He spoke softly but when his volume went up everyone knew he meant business. No nonsense Capt. He made this Role so Poetic.
The amazing depth of that scene is that Sisko was acting and not acting at the same time. He rationally understood what course of action was necessary to solve the problem, while not killing people in the process, but appearing extremely out of control, when in fact he was very much in control, but the emotion was real nonetheless. Sisko was pretty sure he would not have to fire another pair of torpedoes, and part of his emotion, his anger, might actually have been channeled from the fact that he had to do this relatively ugly thing in the first place.
As long as you are able to observe yourself from a detached viewpoint, you have a chance to stay in control of yourself.
Spaciousness in space.
This was a fun comment to read, well said.
@@russellphotos195 Thank you.
Beautiful analysis, thank you for that my fellow person
yeah, it was executed brilliantly. He played right into Eddington’s fantasy of Les Miserable and was willing to make his whole crew think he’d gone mad to do so. And he knew he would have to make one very extreme decision to pull it off, and ultimately he did choose something that would spare lives (but is freakin crazy!). So well done.
"If the Maquis has told you once, they've told you a thousand times, DON'T PROVOKE THE SISKO!"
Haha! Yep!
@Leonardo's Truth it's wrong to admire noble and selfless individuals?
Ok, when you name some, I will admire them.
Do you do Fire Pro Wresting videos?
@@robertpentangelo4860 what makes Sisko impossible to admire? He has shown to be steadfast, loyal to his crew and willing to do anything to ensure the safety of his home. He is a great and loving father and a good leader. Which of these traits are not admirable or noble?
Midnight Run love it!
The writing was spot on and the delivery was superb ! The ethical implications left the viewers wondering and guessing their own judgement.. Isn't that what a show like this is all about - the proof is, that even to this day - it is being discussed !
Outstanding post you have there! And, how very true!
I think what I love most about this scene is that Eddington's reasoning and criticism of Sisko demonstrates that the writers of the show weren't trying to suggest that Sisko was ethical in what he did, but that this conflict had a shade of grey that other Star Trek shows didn't often confront.
Not exactly.
Even Sisko knew what he was doing was unethical, but it was the only way:
Eddington had convinced himself he was the noble, selfless hero in this story. Once Sisko realized this, he knew the only way to beat him was to be the "villain".
He gave Eedington exactly what he wanted: A chance to sacrifice himself to save his people.
Eddington never wanted victory, he was smart enough to know the Maquis were doomed one way or another...Eddington wanted martyrdom.
That may very well be true, certainly Sisko's actions DID betray Starfleet values, even though the situation was so difficult it required a tough decision of one kind or another.
But I also believe this was meant to showcase a real situation of mass killers using excuses to justify their use of horrific acts, as just because Eddington valued his people, obviously that does NOT excuse his use of bio-weapons to mass murder people to make homes for his own, and it seems apparent in this scene that he expected the Federation to just roll over and allow him to kill millions in order to follow their moral high grounds.
People here and in other videos argue about how better one captain then the other would have been, but ANY of those captains would not just roll over and allow such horrific acts without making one difficult decision or another, and in this case, Sisko chose to force Eddington to face his own hypocrisy in a bid to force him to choose between ruthless execution of his agenda to help his people, or the actual LIVES of the people he tried to protect by committing mass atrocity.
Thing is, regardless of what one thinks of Sisko's acts, Eddington very much betrayed the Maqui, who were NEVER meant to be ruthless, bloody genocidal killers in their quest for peaceful homes.
"Commander, prepare two quantum torpedoes. And write on the side of them 'Do *not* fuck with The Sisko.'"
I see some one is an SFDebris fan :)
Sisko has to lead war. Sometimes you have to make tough choices.
Lmao!!!!!!
Leonardo's Truth What are you talking about? TOS had its moral puzzles as well. DS9 reaffirms Trek's philosophy in the end. It just has to put it to the test first. Isn't that how you show the strength of your culture? And if you hate DS9 so much why are you here?
DS9 is the best Trek, story wise
"This was a result of f*cking with the sisko, you do not f*ck with the sisko and live to tell the tale"
to quote teh most powerful being in the universe. You hit me. Picard never hit me. That tells you the kind of man you are dealing with lol
WELL SAID!
I've said it before and I'll say it again: "If you are going to negotiate, you send Pike or Picard. If you want to win a fight, you send Janeway or Kirk. To win a war, you send Sisko". Even though I grew up with the original series, Sisko will ALWAYS be my Captain!
Love this scene. "You betrayed your uniform!". Such anger and emotion acted perfectly by Avery Brooks.
Honestly I thought it sounded cheesy. But, y-know, it's Star Trek.
Did you look 👀 at his right eyebrow after he said that? He showed powerful anger in this episode. Janeway had some times and Picard did as well but nothing so emotionally fueled. Sisko showed what loyalty to the uniform is in this part.
He gets angry, yet he takes the same course of action. Hypocrisy at it's finest. If there was any sense of reality in this show he would've been stripped of his rank & charged with a crime.
Marcelle Brown Yeah, showed loyalty to it by betraying the things it was supposed to stand for.
My uniform betrays my desire to hide my belly fat.
The way Sisko says "torpedoes" is pure poetry.
He says it with such calm and resolution while the rest of the crew is left spinning in disbelief.
Man... I miss this era of Trek. Sisko was a force of nature... What a scene this was.
That is how its done. Do not start a war, but do not back down from a fight and go to any length to win a fight that the other guy started.
Amen
Eddington wanted to see Sisko as the Bad Guy.
Sisko showed Eddington just how Bad he could get.
ua-cam.com/video/u6THHZnZ2pY/v-deo.html
Exactly
"I am the villain of the story" love the way he dealt with this situation...
You want to play hero then lets play, all he did was basically bring balance to the situation, eddington poisoned a cardassian world making it inhospitable to them so sisko poisoned a marque world and made it inhospitable for humans and in the end all that came of it was they swapped planets...brilliant solution.
He also made eddington blink, essentially made him pay the price for the silly heroic fantasy crusade he was on, he basically said okay lets see how righteous and clever you feel when the cost is more than you're willing to sacrifice.
Definition of bad ass right there.
Bottom line: When you owe Sisko five bucks, you better cough up the five bucks.
Lewis von Feline
hahahaha I never heard that one before. Hilarious.
DS9 didn't start off too well, but once it got darker it produced on a regular basis some of the finest moments of Star Trek- this being one of them. As such, it became my favourite series by a long way.
Once Avery got the beard, DS9 was awesome.
That is the power of the beard. Ask TNG/Johnathan Frames.
Oh, and shave his head
Additionally The walking dead was at its peak when Rick had a big bushy beard and dropped off after he shaved it.
You cant escape the power of the beard.
Lmao 😂
Complain more 😂
It's a real crime that they never made a DS9 movie. They could have had a shared universe far before anyone else. Terrible missed opportunity.
Why did you have to go and ruin this comment with this "shared universe" kiddie bullshit
@@MegaZeta that's a good point, I hate all this "alternate timeline" stuff n they shoulda had pine b kirk's great grandson or something hehe
Agreed, they should have dragged out the Dominion War I think and concluded it with a couple of movies.
It was a great series. The best in my opinion.
CBS is going all in with a shared universe now. They have Discovery, a picard series later this year, a section 31 series in late 2020/early 2021 and a starfleet academy series after that. By 2022 we'll probably have four concurrent trek series and in a likelihood they will be carrying cbs's streaming service all them themselves.
The people who keep saying the other captains would have worked something out are forgetting that the other captains had one-issue-per-episode. The writers would have to orchestrate some kind of compromise so the Enterprise/Voyager could discover something else and face a different problem.
That's why DS9 is more realistic. In real life, we can't always solve problems with a neat little bow on top. We face the same problem day after day. The other side won't always give in, no matter how diplomatic you are. When that happens, what are you going to do? DS9 addressed this, while the other series didn't. You should be able to deal with a story that doesn't have a Disney-like happy ending.
I can deal with reality just fine, but in reality nuking a planet would have him over a barrel, especially in star treks moral timeline. Remember this was his call alone, no authority from HQ at all, on a personal mission. Heck if i'd of been on that bridge i'd of leveled a weapon at him myself.
Janeway might have done it to protect people as she wouldn't have the means to call home, not on a mission hunting one man. Picard never in a million years would he nuke a planet on a personal mission of revenge, because one man had hurt his pride or ideals.
***** Yes that came into my mind when I wrote this. The man was biologically and psychology altered and put through the trauma of killing thousands of people he respected, knew and served with against his own will. In the end his choice was to kill what he considered the enemy, an enemy so grave they would swallow the entire federation and earth whole, at the cost of his own crew's lives.
Now let's compared that to sisko shall we.
Eddington betrays sisko and hurts his pride and his trust. Granted reasons to be upset, reasons to be looking to apprehend the man perhaps. But nothing compared to what Picard went through.
The maquis were defending themselves against an opponent that starfleet wouldn't help them with, the borg are a race that consume all life. There is a big difference there.
Finally we have the methods. You say picard was willing to sacrifice his crew to save earth/the federation, I understand. You might be willing to argue sisko would do the same, would picard have nuked a planet, ahhhh i'd say no and if he did, i'd have him over a barrel, phaser ready to fire, just like his crew were ready to the one time he made a terrible call. (not a bad call an unethical one) What did sisko get, nothing, he made the bad call, and nuked a planet to boot, was rewarded and considered a hero.
Mark Joseph Middleton You are partly correct in your reasoning. Sisko states himself that he wouldent have minded If eddington just left starfleet in favor of the maquis. Like so his friend Cal hudson did during the initial uprising of the Maquis. He is angry and upset cause he betrayed his trust (as you stated) but also abused both the trust he and starfleet placed in them. Eddington didnt just leave starfleet, He used his position to sabotage and steal from starfleet and then make off to the Maquis.
Right before the attack on the Malinché starfleet was happy with just opposing them and not helping them against the cardassians.
Attacking federation shipping and even starships made Starfleet go on the offensive regarding the Maquis.
Not a feat unpresedented btw - Picard at one time used Ro Laren to ambush an entire Maquis fleet..
The poisoning of the planets may have been a drastic measure but it showed both to the cardassians and the maquis that the fed where defending their treaty with the cardassians and balanced things after the original Maquis bio-weapon attack.
Thank you for putting into words the reason I like DS9 so much. I had always tried to describe it as political or historical but that didn't really do it justice.
Mark Joseph Middleton In this case I believe he just forced the evacuation of the planet by making it uninhabitable to human life. I would say that it is more an issue of ecological terrorism and less about mass murder.
As far as the other captains go... I think Archer would have done something similar. In the later episodes, during the Human-Xindi war, Archer was faced with the extermination of the human race. At one point he put a captured enemy into an airlock and began to depressurize it. It was not the only time he used torture to meet his ends. At the end of the war he returned to earth with PTSD and a sour disposition.
I see many people in the comments mentioning Captain Janeway. Though I agree that she was likely the most moral and upstanding of the Captains, I doubt she would have returned from the Gama Quadrant if not for the liberal use of Deus Ex Machina. Many of her command decisions would have seen her relieved of her command in any modern military. In the Episodes: Basics I and II, she puts the needs of the one before that of the ship and her crew. Not only was that unrealistic, but counter even to Star Trek tradition.
Real problems don't wrap themselves up neatly after an hour, and wars are never forgotten.
"I have had it with these mother f-kin' Maquis attacking our mother f-kin' ships!" Well, he was probably thinking it pretty hard.
He was like Samuel Jackson in snakes on a plane. LOL!
HAHAHAAA!! I WOULD HAVE, TOO..
Sisko played him like a fiddle. Incredible actor, incredible writing. DS9 was MY Trek.
startrekua-cam.com/video/b4XrdFdVb6Y/v-deo.htmlsi=tz2hGEirzv_eEKrI
"When the prophets learn of this, they will take your head!"
"When the learn? Fool, they ordered me to do it"
Roberto De Jesus Chieftain of the federation
I *AM* A PROPHET
Good use of the scene/quotes from Halo 2.
They already knew due to having seen it happen.
Non linear time is interesting.
I stumble upon this as a star trek fan attempting halo 2 laso, you made my night!
As much as I love Kirk and Picard, this scene (and In the Pale Moonlight) made me reconsider Sisko as being one of the most badass captains of all time.
Kirk and Picard and their Savagery moments. But Sisko took that to another level.
@@YourBoyWang Not really. "General Order 24" that's more savage than this.
There is a reason the USS Defiant has another name passed around colloquially.
I've described Sisko as "The tactical genius and fighting spirit of Kirk, with the suave wisdom of Picard, plus that extra New Orleans flavor added in"
"In the Pale Moonlight" is far and away my favorite DS9 episode. Simply put, because Sisko, in laying the events out in his log, is appealing to you...the viewer...while trying to justify everything that's happened. Then, when the log's erased, it's up to you to decide whether or not the ends justify the means.
At least, that's my take on the episode. Yours may vary.
Captain Sisko for President. Time to stop fucking around.
I disagree, you need a diplomatic president who will use force if truely necessary, like Picard. As you see here, Sisko uses force first, then diplomacy. This would not work for a president.
Pat S The problem with holding up Picard as a practical example is that the writers would always get him out of trouble. In Redemption I&II Picard made so many mistakes that have historical precedents it was astounding. Only the writers at the very end waved their wands and said ok civil war over.
Pat S
The whole fucking episode was his using diplomacy, and resorting to this when it didn't work.
RedonYellow2 Thank you.
Most captains don't obsess over things. Sisko put the lives of a couple THOUSAND, maybe even a MILLION people on the line, just to get ONE man.
A weird thing to notice but the most impressive thing with this scene is the accuracy to bridge operations. Nog is the bridge talker and when Sisko calls a speed Nog says "engine-room bridge; warp six". I do not believe any other Star Trek ship bothered with having a bridge talker and instead made the captain have to call the engine room himself or had the speed set by the bridge consoles. The captain has other things to worry about than calling the engine room for speed changes and on a ship with as complicated of propulsion systems as Defiant or Enterprise direct control throttles would not be likely.
The helm usually has seamless control of propulsion. Nog was the relay due to damage sustained earlier in the episode. Captains do not need to communicate with engineering for propulsion unless there is some form of disruption with the computer systems, like the battle damage received from the Maquis
The reason they did this was because the Comm system went down
I also love that Worf called for disengagement of the safety devices on the next set of torpedos.
Even Worf was like, "Uh...Captain? Are you sure about this?"
Exactly. When you actions are so abhorrent as to give a Klingon pause, you're doing it wrong.
@@d.francescovalls9321 or very right.
@@bogustoast22none25
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
@@d.francescovalls9321 it's a matter of perspective, honestly.
@@d.francescovalls9321 the machea declared an act of war
Eddington: nooo you can't just poison an entire planet
Sisko: lol photons go bshhhhhhhh
*cough* Quantums *cough*
I hope you don't think this episode treats Sisko's decision as the right one. _Deep Space Nine_ was a good show because it allowed its characters to screw up, and here, Worf's reaction tells the story: Sisko isn't any more in the right than his enemy. They're both treating a personal vendetta as more important than the principles they espouse. This sort of depth of character defined _Deep Space Nine._
@@Dorian-_-Gray Thank you. I believe this was the point the writers were going for. I'll never like sisko because of this though.
@@Dorian-_-Gray no i just thought it fit the meme format
@@Dorian-_-Gray Not sure that was the case in this episode though. Sisko pondered the decision, but wasn't it implied he just played Eddington like a fiddle? He needed to play the villain in his story of the hero. And the price was "just" making one planet uninhabitable to humans.
Eddington: Gives his nemesis a nickname based on a villain from a centuries old play
Also Eddington: “Why are you so obsessed with me?”
Not a play- a book. The Broadway musical was only what- 25 years ago? Less?
@@tatianalyulkin410 I have no idea if you're joking or not.
@@lucinavonnolaran8728 the book was written by Victor Hugo in the 19th century. By this point it would be well over 500 years old
@@tatianalyulkin410 it premiered in 1980, which even by the time of DS9 would make it centuries old. both the book and the play would meet the definition.
Holy crap, I've watched this scene countless times but its only now i see the slight twitch on Sisko's face just after Eddington says "The sad part is you dont even realise it" at 3:50.
He does realise it, and its killing him but he has to keep playing this part of the villain so Eddington as the "hero" can save the others by surrendering
The best part is Sisko told Starfleet of his actions afterwards and they approved. 👍
@@TheBigExclusiveOne of the very worst pieces of Star Trek writing. A chemical weapon attack on an innocent population wouldn't even fly in the late 20th century, nevermind the era of Starfleet.
@@DrDoohickey yeah gonna call bullshit on that, we've proven we will absolutely stand idly by while shit like that happens
@@monkeyman767 We're talking about two different things. Turning a blind eye to atrocities is condemnable, but committing them is another matter.
@@DrDoohickey I don't really disagree with you there. But by this stage we've already seen the federation do some pretty awful things, they're desperate. And for better or worse, Sisko was selected to "do what needed to be done". I'm not saying I agree with his actions because I don't. But I disagree with it being the worst piece of Trek writing for sure.