This interview breaks my heart. My family shunned our father after he discovered the truth about the LDS religion. He has since passed away. Now that I know he was correct, I can’t apologize for not taking the time to listen to him.
Great interview, I listened a few years ago. Tom was so sincere at every stage of his faith, deconstruction, etc. I really hope his life has been good in the years since.
IMO, this is THE most important Mormon Story podcast ever. This story exposes sooooo much and reveals that there’s an “inner circle” and privileges for the elite members. And that says A LOT about what tscc really is.
“No one has come after this lost sheep.” That, dearest reader, sums it all up. Someone who gave their best, their time, their talents, their family to this organization…. Is just discarded because the truth is inconvenient. I hope this re-upload gets 100s of 1000s of views. Thank you, Tom. You’re a hero.
Yeah that killed me hearing that but its so true! No one wants to hear what you have to say or believe if it makes them question their belief. How many times are we taught as lds members to go after that one! At least show you still love and care about people that dont believe anymore, jeez 😢
This interview was with Tom in 2015 just as the Church began to collapse in Europe with the revelation the internet brought about. Amazing the amount of regression that has taken place in one decade.
This man reminds me so much of my husbands story. Total faithful rule follower wanted to be better advocate for the church. Finds the lies, I accused him of being possessed by Satan 10 years! I finally saw the truth as well separately while serving in Stake RS . Great respect for this man and my husband. The church is a horrible lying money making machine that holds families hostage.
Great interview from a man who sounds like integrity means everything to him. The problem with learning the truth is that the church taught us to care deeply about honesty and truth. When we find that we were taught half-truths and outright fictions, we feel betrayed.
♥️**WE LOVE YOU TOM!!!**♥️ and John, we can’t thank you enough as this IS the very episode that convinced us we had been lied to our whole lives! Bless you Tom & John for bringing this very important truth! We love you both!♥️♥️
Brilliant interview! It's so sad to hear that his family's devotion to him is conditional. I hope you can get another interview with this insightful man.
When he started to get upset I could relate! The anger I felt that I have been lied to all my life! I’m 61 and I remember being in primary and having to memorize the articles off faith and the one that really stands out is “Being Honest, True, Chaste, Benevolent and doing good in All things” ! Then to realize that this church lied and hid the real truth and the whole time I felt so guilty and never good enough as a wife or mother! There Is Nothing True about this church!
Same. I'm 67 and was deeply involved. I felt like I could never measure up. It was exhausting and when I found out the truth I was so angry. Still working through it.
I love that he points out that he’s only in the church because it’s true, and for no other reason. I can’t fathom people that ignore things they know to be wrong just to stay in a group, unless of course their only possible support structure comes from within the church and they can’t afford to leave it immediately. It seems like many people would rather take the blue pill and look away from any problems rather than go with what they find to be truthful.
I hadn't listened for a while. This was a good one. As to length of episodes they are fine. I drive from Hermiston to Boise on a regular basis and these are a great way to spend the time. Tom sounds like a gracious, intelligent and well spoken man and he was a pleasure to listen to. Sorry about all the friction he has with his family. I could speak to that but I won't.
I learned a lot from listening to this most interesting interview!! Thanks for everything! I hope Tom is feeling better and doing well. We need men like him! (and you, John)
This episode was greatly influential to my husband and myself 5 years ago. I cant thank Tom enough for sharing. Sending all good juju to him for healing among his family.
Excellent episode. This is a re-listen for me, and is well worth it. It references a 1st hand account of the 2nd annointing, which lay members dont even know exists. He tells about the lies and inability of even apostles and prophets to answer for the church's fraudulent truth claims. And he demonstrates the behaviors of those who refuse to listen to the problems and choose the church (not God, but *The Church*) over their loved ones. This organization has a fine gloss to it on the outside, and it fools many. It's dangerous and false, and I dont blame this man for calling it a cult.
The truth always wins. Thank you to Tom and John for following your heart and your common sense. This interview is so important. I hope that people listen with an open heart and mind. Thank you both for all you do.
This interview was one of the most pivotal episodes that I listened to on Mormon stories. I was still an active Mormon when I listened and stayed active for several more years. The second anointing was something that interested me during my teenage years. I was so disappointed by the revelations Tom shared about his experience. I feel for him and the repercussions that he’s experienced due to his convictions of truth. I am grateful for this episode.
To say Tom did his due diligence for seeking answers is an understatement to say the least!! All I had to do is read Fawn Brodies book and I was able to let everything go. But I felt all those same feelings of betrayal during my faith crisis and wanted the church and my parents to own up to the real truth of their false doctrine. Go ahead and still live it if you want but just own it. That’s what I heard from Tom in this interview. Recently my mom passed away and after the most loving support from my 6 siblings, 2 of which are still church goers, my moms stake president shamed us for nearly 20 minutes about all of us who didn’t share my mom’s faith. It triggered all these old feelings of seeking the truth. This interview somehow helped validate my anger towards the brethren. I try so hard to keep an open mind about the members of the church in my life that are some of the most wonderful people and then there are the brethren which represent lies deceit and hatred towards the people that don’t share their faith. Thanks to Tom for your unrelenting passion for the truth and for sharing. Continue to stand tall and strong. 🙏
Thank you for reposting this interview. This is so good. It's interesting to hear from a man who had such a strong faith and a positive experience in the church for so many years who lost his faith because he has a strong sense of right and truth. I hope Tom's health allows for another discussion with him. When I've finished listening I'm going to look for more from Tom.
It's not just the sheeple in the Church that are delusional the Second Anointing shows that the Brethren that are the real deluded ones thinking that they can lie cheat and obfuscate without any consequences from God. This so called "ordinance" makes pure mockery of the principles of repentance and the atonement.
It's straight up blasphemy for them to say they decide someone receives exaltation. I'm not even religious but I'm offended that they would do such a thing. Salvation is judged by God not man, LDS church is a mockery of Christianity
Tom, for what it's worth seeing this interview last year pop up on my you tube feed healed my marriage in a way that I didn't even know needed to be healed. Thank you for your bravely. ❤️
This validated EVERYTHING that I have thought about the LDS Church. This is such a tragically, disheartening interview with a man who refused to be a hypocrite. This fine man had integrity, and he refused to compromise his values regarding those conflicting historical facts. And this Church supposedly espouses Christian principles? Honestly, what a dreary faith to practice.
So pleased I listened to this again, what a wonderful man, incredibly sad that his family have chosen to treat him so badly...and I'm still angry that church leaders have been so uncaring but sadly not surprised...
I was about to go look for these episodes on your website where I listened to them the first time, but I'm so glad you put them on here along with the others in this mini-series. Thank you!
Such a great interview. Tom is inspiring. You were hard on him with you playing" Devils Advocate, I was upset at you, lol, but Tom's responses were clear, concise and very rational, logical and true. Elder Holland did what all the leaders do now. No real rational answers. All they can rely on is their warm and fuzzy elevated emotions. No answers. Nothing logical. Then they basically shame and threaten that you're listening to the devil and will lose everything by doing so.
Ruben J Clark said, “If the church is true, it cannot be harmed. If it is not true, it ought to be harmed.” The first part of that quote says if it’s true it cannot be harmed so why is everyone so afraid to look at it? Seems maybe they believe on some level it’s not true. I feel so bad for Tom that his family is choosing the Church over him. That they won’t even be open to “look”. It reminds me of those Israelites who wouldn’t look at the staff Moses held up to be healed.
When someone makes a claim that has no hard evidence to back it up, the burden of proof is on them. If you tell me there's a big elephant in the kitchen, I'm going to have to see the elephant to believe it's true. Awesome interview
I admire you both so much for your humility and integrity. What an amazing interview and it is such a small world. Elder Wayne Peterson was my mission president and I love that man so much. When I woke up to the deceptions of the church, Wayne is one of those who I felt sad to disappoint with the newly discovered truth. However, if there is a God out there, He or She or It would be disappointed in me if I did not use my ability to reason and have the integrity to follow what is truly found. Keep up the great work!
Thanks for rerunning this interview on UA-cam. It's where I've been listening to Mormon Stories Podcast. I'd love to hear your story John Delin! Thanks for sharing your story Tom. For all the information. I'm so sad to hear about your family's reaction. I hope things are better now ❤️
I am so glad I left the church just before my eldest son turned 18 what finished it for my 17 year old was he went to early morning seminary for 4 years and the last year he was in and out of hospital with Asthma and the bishop wouldn’t allow him to graduate and also his seminary teacher set up mini auction you got play money by remembering scriptures anyway another boy went and made copies of the money and my son wanted a quilt the class had made and right up to auction day he had the most money so I didn’t bid on anything else and when the quilt came up this other boy outbid my son and there was no way he had more money but the seminary teacher didn’t want to do anything about it because that family might stop going to church. So that was the final straw for him. My shelf broke when my ex came out as gay and I found out the bishop and stake president knew and neither one thought to tell me my ex was told go on a mission get married in the temple and his gayness would go away.
What a great interview. It is so important that hear what is really going on inside the inner circle of the leaders of the church. Sadly, when you are in the church, people are so conditioned to ignore what is so obvious about the false claims of the doctrine of the church.
A fantastic interview. Loved hearing all the details about LDS. Earth only 6000 years old, so hard to believe anyone would believe this. Being honest, it was clear to see that Tom was still struggling with the lose of faith and seeking validation from the Bishops and Elders. I do hope he let go of that battle and found some peace.
Tom is absolutely correct on all of his points. Everything he he is talking about was part of my journey out of the church. Listening to this conversation I have zero respect for brother Holland. Why can you say brother we love you unconditionally and I will pray for you. Nope nothing like that. And as far as his wife is concerned she is a very sad woman to give up her family and her children grandchildren stability for a religion. Nobody I know of that has any common Sense would give up the stability of their children grandchildren and future generations for a religion.
This really hit me hard. I got nauseous hearing about how Tom was treated by his family. It's every doubting or ex mormons worst fear. The church really does an exceptional job of dehumanizing anyone who's not a perfectly faithful member. Brainwashing people to the point they can turn against their "loved" ones the second a doubt is expressed.
@shermannorton. Truly, Truly: It MAKES SOME OF US PHYSICALLY ILL. Every. Time. And yet we want to be SURE. SURE. SURE. SURE. that we are not missing something, because we can't believe it is SUCH AN EVIL CONTRIVANCE and CON. 💕🔥💕🔥
This was such a validating interview to listen to. I just completed my master's in marriage and family therapy, and the program director was also the stake president of the region. I remember sitting down and asking him why my abusive father was still given a temple recommendation. I remembered multiple people at church, including my bishop, referring to him as "scary,." Now, imagine how my seven siblings and I felt about him. I had him read me the temple recommend questions, and I asked, "Where is the question about if you beat your children?" And he was a little shocked and mentioned that he would be included in the question where he follows the commandments and teachings of the church and such. I said, "That's pretty broad and up for interpretation." My father believed in the "spare the rod, spoil the child" narrative and utmost obedience to parents. I'm sure he answered in what he thought was honest. He always talked about jeaus whipping the merchants in the temple. He believed he was being Christlike. Why was he not questioned? This stake president, marriage and family therapist, and CFT program director specialized in children and parental relationships. I recall what he preached in classes, that corporal punishment only showed neutral at best, highly damaging at worst impacts on the children. Why on earth does our church, which I adamantly preached, values research and science (i.e., Our apostles are education, and the current prophet is a surgeon), cast a blind eye? I asked him why women could not be sealed to multiple men, but men could be sealed to multiple women. And have no reasonable answer. I wondered every Bishop or stake president. I had this question since I was age 12 and found out that my mom had to annul her sealing to her dead husband, the father of my oldest brother, to be sealed to my dad. Each one gave me different answers varying in sexism and blind faith (my parents had to petition the 12 apostles for eight years until they accepted). I had inquired why no members of the church had reached out to me as a "lost sheep" and heard my concerns. I wondered why my church mentors from my childhood ward no longer messaged me after I moved in with my boyfriend and now husband, a nonmember. I only wanted to seek the truth, but they put many roadblocks in the way. Just answer my questions if you cannot, do more research. Stop telling me to "just have more faith". Women in the church are expected to blindly be lead by these male preishood holders despite their neglect, abuse, or ill intention. I swore I would never be "anti-mormon" I grew up hating those people. But the more I learn the more I mourn. The more therapy clients I have come into my office with religious trauma, sexual disfuntion, unabounding guilt. I simply cannot support nor standby any longer. Thanks for sharing your story 💙
I am heartbroken and fully understanding of the anger, disappointment, & sadness that is on full display in Mr. Phillips voice. To have faith in a God used to seperate a family is the worst example of where "faith" can lead peoole. 😢
I'm not mormon and have never been, but I'm intrigued with mormon stories. The rituals is fascinating and yet so scary. I don't believe in God, Jesus or the Holy Ghost, the only thing I believe, is that most religions are cults.
I remember many years ago being told in the Temple visitors centre in Hawaii being told about the lack of horses and no evidence of the production of metal etc. At the time I brushed it off thinking that evidence will turn up. One day I woke up and now I’m listening. The only difference is my children did listen to the evidence and stayed away from the church. There is hope that things will change for the better.
When my first husband and I were both active, I used to get mad if he did something “wrong” according to church teachings and promises, but if he had ever said, “I don’t believe.” I would have respected that. When I stopped believing, my father respected that and loved me as much as ever.
I'm not mormon, but I found this interview to be absolutely captivating. I could not stop listening. I can't imagine what this would be for a mormon who is starting to question their faith.
I’m only an hour and 20 min in, but to keep things in perspective, let’s remember if a Jehovah Witness or Scientologist were to describe a similar ritual in their temple, to most here, it would be entirely insignificant, if not a bit comical. I’m sure the experience was and is touching, but Apostles and Prophets in the Mormon church are literally no different than every other human on earth. No judgement here, but It’s pretty funny when you see it. Old guys just playing pretend in their minds and people believing them. 😀
My thoughts exactly. It always has and always will drive me crazy how “the brethren” are put on a pedestal by the members. Even during this interview “oh yeah, I played tennis with him in college”. I just don’t get it?
Thank you for sharing. I was broken for many years after discovering the truth about mormonizam. I'm shocked just listening and still broken heart. I was baptized at 15 years old. I TRULY TRULY believed!!! I was often redirected to say Heavenly father instead of God when praying and end with Jesus Chris. I questioned that often why I couldn't start with God and end with "things I say in the name of Jesus Amen". Little did I know I wasn't praying to the one and only God of the Bible. It's totally a different heavenly father n Christ with spiritual mother. I pondered for many years seeking the truth and stayed away from the church. I live my life righteously for me!! I know I got nothing to worry about when I am with God and Jesus dwells in my heart. I now know I don't need to belong to a church to be safe
I've personally been present when members would discuss of there is indeed such a thing as a second announting. I have even known a member who had taken the second annoyanting. SRM
It's fascinating how things change. When I was active in the church and believed everything the church taught I'd go looking for like minded Mormon youtubers and I'd avoid anything that felt it could go against my beliefs (because that's what you're taught when you're mormon/ taught to avoid anything and everything that may conflict/ oppose your views of Mormonism, and it's like what your taught alongside the way your mind works goes against you, I think we as humans naturally don't gel with what contradicts our world views, e.g. our minds have confirmation bias and whatever story we tell it, is the story it'll try to confirm to us, and when we find things that go against that story we naturally ignore it, though alongside that being growing up in Mormonism and having that as my identity it makes sense that it's easier to avoid things that may tear apart my Mormon beliefs because it hurts to have your identity and entire world view/ perspective torn apart, so avoiding things that disagree with what you believe is like a form of self preservation, the only trouble is there's no way of knowing how much or little your immediate beliefs are hurting or helping you, and you can't really see it unless you challenge those beliefs which when those beliefs are tied so strongly to your identity and world view can cause a lot of pain because you're also challenging your own identity and how you view the world.) Anyway in short when I stopped attending and became less active I now have a lot of interest in channels like these that talk about the experiences of those who have left, and perspectives of those that don't agree with traditional Mormon views, pr completely disagree with them altogether.
Tom’s family couldn’t discuss his concerns about the Book of Mormon vs scientific evidence because they know that they don’t have a logical argument, in essence they’re sticking their fingers in their ears and going la la la. They have to banish him because he’s a reminder that they don’t have Truth behind their beliefs
Can’t believe Alan Phillips is a general authority now…well I can actually - I had quite the teenage crush and his testimony at youth conference was quite something even at 15😂
I am surprised Tom Phillips had such a honest experience in the church. As I grew up in the church I was always aware there was and inside truth and an outside truth. Covering up the inside truth was part and parcel of being a member. I knew the inside truth would not hold up to scrutiny. Not because of later revelations of the history of the church because I didn't have that knowledge then but of things like polygamy and blacks and the priesthood things like that which we were taught by example to cover up. Mr. Phillips seems to have not had that experience somehow.
About the year 1983 our Ward exed a family when it was found out the husband was receiving revalations on who shoud become one of his many plurl wife. Upset many ward members. Disfellowship. I often wondered how they kept such a sensative event out of the public news.
I imagine Tom Phillips is feeling so betrayed by the GA's because he was a somebody in the church. I have noticed the somebodies of the church who lose their faith have a large expectation of being considered personally. We the nobodies in the church never expected anything from them when we left. In fact we hope for them to leave us alone. If they had no interest in us when we were active members why would we expect anything after we leave.
Your podcasts are SO interesting to me! Having never been a mormon, but raised strict protestant, I just don't understand religions at all!! What does all this business, programs, and dogma have to do with true spirituality? We don't need churches or bibles or books that are mythical in my opinion! Should we not be thinking about just helping others and being kind and uplifting our fellow humans? And the secrecy? It is ridiculous. And the expense of religious churches and buildings rather than feeding and medically caring for those in need. I rather lean toward eastern teachers, like Buddha. (Buddha was a teacher, not a savior). This man is so brave and honest! If all humans would live by truth and honesty, what a wonderful world this would be! I love that he is a critical thinker!!
When Tom was getting upset about all the gas lighting, lies, racism, and fraud of the Book of Abraham it really hit home for me. I went through the same thing. I too am alone, now. The only member of my family and friends no longer in the church.
I have an ex friend, when we were kids , we told stories. He later used our stories and made up a religion , saying he found plates and translated them by god. It’s a restored branch of Jesus Christ, oddly gaining respect in the LDS church lol. If that can happen then Joseph could have easily had stories since childhood and merely wrote them later as the Book of Mormon.
John, you are so amazing at playing devil's advocate and not just agreeing with the person on their views. You thoughtfully challenge them, which brings out deeper content out of the speaker. Brilliant! You're also asking the questions that I'm sure many people may be thinking to themselves in their heads as the speaker is going on, and it gives them a chance to really solidify their views. Ex you asked "Why not take a non literal view of religion? It does a lot of good things, be practical..." (a point that many of us wrestle with after having discovered the same truths as you and Tom ie Treasure, Polyandry, etc) and it gives space for Tom to talk about the "good fruits of the church" could be provided in other organizations but they don't contain the bad fruits that the church does. Brilliant!
i listened to this episode about two weeks ago - loved it! definitely THE most relevant and important episode ever i think. i remember hearing him mention 19 reasons for not believing anymore. i want to compile a similar list for future conversations and confrontations i will have about “why” i don’t think the church is true anymore. my current list is very short. i cannot find the timestamp for that list, does anybody know it / have the list?!
I feel that a lot of Tom's problem is that he has hurt feelings because no one came to rescue him. These beefs be has with the church have been around since the church was organized.
What we know now is you cannot just drop all that information on your family after you’ve had time to process not believing your faith. He sat them all down and told them and kept reaching out to them just telling them all these truths. I can see how is family reacted this way. As much as his wife didn’t want to hear it he should had a conversation with her first and discussed how to go about telling their adult kids which he should have done maybe one on one. Also easing into why you don’t believe. If they want to hear tell them if they don’t respect that that leave it alone. They don’t OWE you a conversation, as much as you would want to have one. I recently left Christianity and my husband still believes. It’s hard to not make snide remarks, but DON’T. It gives off an air of you think you’re better than them because now you don’t believe. DON’T force your new found beliefs on them or anybody. I feel extremely sorry for him but him trying to force conversations and emails did him no favors. Hopefully he is able to make amends with his family. But it’s seem he wants them to believe the truth and leave the church (which they should) but that’s not our place to make someone follow us even when we know it’s true.
I agree with you. The desperately seeking validation was painful to hear. Making nasty comments, does give a quick ease of the pain, but unfortunately brings it back two fold. I hope he found peace.
Very good advice I’ve just recently gone through this, and I genuinely just wanted to share the truth with my brothers, thinking that if they found out the truth like I had, it would be just as obvious to them 😅 it wasn’t
Great episode. Thank you very much. Very honest and a smart introspect on the part of Mr. Phillips. I too no longer subscribe to the truth claims of the Church. John, will you please provide us the citations of the papers Mr. Phillips referenced (Rhodes, the paper Mr. Phillips was given from BYU, etc.)?
It seems that perhaps if tom had received a proper scientific education he never would have fallen for the book of mormon. Maybe its just the time of his life he finllaly thought about it
I’m really curious how this interview landed on John’s heart. I know he tried to remain neutral as the interviewer, but since he was still technically active at the time of this interview (I think, right?) I would think the power of this story might have moved him, one way or the other, on his own journey.
Thank you for posting this. This episode is the most heart breaking and also the most important I've ever heard. I'm so sorry totally innocent and honest people have to go through these things. This show how dishonest people are brought up to be in the Mormon church. As soon as they discover a grain of truth they shun it and call it evil. Then who do they really worship? This church was once called "The Islam of the West", and it's not difficult to see why. They kept women as cattle and worshipped racism, and now they're trying to sweep their past under the rug, lying about it all. This has nothing to do with any kind of goodness, Mammon is their real god.
This interview breaks my heart. My family shunned our father after he discovered the truth about the LDS religion. He has since passed away. Now that I know he was correct, I can’t apologize for not taking the time to listen to him.
💔 So sorry, I hope you can find healing ❤️🩹
Bless your heart.
That is hard, though I’m sure he knows. Please tell your story. Help others NOT treat their loved ones poorly for losing their faith.
im so sorry
Yep! My mom warned us before she died. No one listened.
Great interview, I listened a few years ago. Tom was so sincere at every stage of his faith, deconstruction, etc. I really hope his life has been good in the years since.
IMO, this is THE most important Mormon Story podcast ever. This story exposes sooooo much and reveals that there’s an “inner circle” and privileges for the elite members. And that says A LOT about what tscc really is.
What is tscc short for? I see that a lot but don’t know what it meant
@@Cocoon68 The So Called Church
@@Cocoon68 the so-called church
@@TheKeck 🌈🌈🌈.
Thank you.
Okay if I borrow that?
@@sheliabryant3997 It's used pretty widely, so go for it!
“No one has come after this lost sheep.” That, dearest reader, sums it all up. Someone who gave their best, their time, their talents, their family to this organization…. Is just discarded because the truth is inconvenient. I hope this re-upload gets 100s of 1000s of views. Thank you, Tom. You’re a hero.
Yeah that killed me hearing that but its so true! No one wants to hear what you have to say or believe if it makes them question their belief. How many times are we taught as lds members to go after that one! At least show you still love and care about people that dont believe anymore, jeez 😢
Can’t wait for an update 9 years later! Great episode 👏
Best episode ever! This opened my eyes years back. Hope Tom is doing well!
❤
❤😊
This interview was with Tom in 2015 just as the Church began to collapse in Europe with the revelation the internet brought about. Amazing the amount of regression that has taken place in one decade.
This man reminds me so much of my husbands story. Total faithful rule follower wanted to be better advocate for the church. Finds the lies, I accused him of being possessed by Satan 10 years! I finally saw the truth as well separately while serving in Stake RS . Great respect for this man and my husband. The church is a horrible lying money making machine that holds families hostage.
This man was obviously in a lot of pain and felt very abandoned by everyone. I hope things got better for him.
Great interview from a man who sounds like integrity means everything to him. The problem with learning the truth is that the church taught us to care deeply about honesty and truth. When we find that we were taught half-truths and outright fictions, we feel betrayed.
♥️**WE LOVE YOU TOM!!!**♥️ and John, we can’t thank you enough as this IS the very episode that convinced us we had been lied to our whole lives! Bless you Tom & John for bringing this very important truth! We love you both!♥️♥️
How is Tom doing these days? Thank you for rebroadcasting his story. Thanks to Tom for such raw honesty and integrity.
Brilliant interview! It's so sad to hear that his family's devotion to him is conditional. I hope you can get another interview with this insightful man.
A great episode. Holds up so well after 9 (!) years. This shows what a pro JD was and is. Consisentt and high quality brand.
When he started to get upset I could relate! The anger I felt that I have been lied to all my life! I’m 61 and I remember being in primary and having to memorize the articles off faith and the one that really stands out is “Being Honest, True, Chaste, Benevolent and doing good in All things” ! Then to realize that this church lied and hid the real truth and the whole time I felt so guilty and never good enough as a wife or mother! There Is Nothing True about this church!
Same. I'm 67 and was deeply involved. I felt like I could never measure up. It was exhausting and when I found out the truth I was so angry. Still working through it.
I love that he points out that he’s only in the church because it’s true, and for no other reason. I can’t fathom people that ignore things they know to be wrong just to stay in a group, unless of course their only possible support structure comes from within the church and they can’t afford to leave it immediately. It seems like many people would rather take the blue pill and look away from any problems rather than go with what they find to be truthful.
I hadn't listened for a while. This was a good one. As to length of episodes they are fine. I drive from Hermiston to Boise on a regular basis and these are a great way to spend the time.
Tom sounds like a gracious, intelligent and well spoken man and he was a pleasure to listen to.
Sorry about all the friction he has with his family. I could speak to that but I won't.
I learned a lot from listening to this most interesting interview!! Thanks for everything! I hope Tom is feeling better and doing well. We need men like him! (and you, John)
This episode was greatly influential to my husband and myself 5 years ago. I cant thank Tom enough for sharing. Sending all good juju to him for healing among his family.
Any church that allows you to shun your family is not a church that you need to ever be a part of.... So sorry this has happened to him
This episode was such an influence on me. I’m with Tom!
Excellent episode. This is a re-listen for me, and is well worth it. It references a 1st hand account of the 2nd annointing, which lay members dont even know exists. He tells about the lies and inability of even apostles and prophets to answer for the church's fraudulent truth claims. And he demonstrates the behaviors of those who refuse to listen to the problems and choose the church (not God, but *The Church*) over their loved ones. This organization has a fine gloss to it on the outside, and it fools many. It's dangerous and false, and I dont blame this man for calling it a cult.
The truth always wins. Thank you to Tom and John for following your heart and your common sense. This interview is so important. I hope that people listen with an open heart and mind. Thank you both for all you do.
This interview was one of the most pivotal episodes that I listened to on Mormon stories. I was still an active Mormon when I listened and stayed active for several more years.
The second anointing was something that interested me during my teenage years. I was so disappointed by the revelations Tom shared about his experience.
I feel for him and the repercussions that he’s experienced due to his convictions of truth. I am grateful for this episode.
To say Tom did his due diligence for seeking answers is an understatement to say the least!! All I had to do is read Fawn Brodies book and I was able to let everything go. But I felt all those same feelings of betrayal during my faith crisis and wanted the church and my parents to own up to the real truth of their false doctrine. Go ahead and still live it if you want but just own it. That’s what I heard from Tom in this interview.
Recently my mom passed away and after the most loving support from my 6 siblings, 2 of which are still church goers, my moms stake president shamed us for nearly 20 minutes about all of us who didn’t share my mom’s faith. It triggered all these old feelings of seeking the truth. This interview somehow helped validate my anger towards the brethren. I try so hard to keep an open mind about the members of the church in my life that are some of the most wonderful people and then there are the brethren which represent lies deceit and hatred towards the people that don’t share their faith. Thanks to Tom for your unrelenting passion for the truth and for sharing. Continue to stand tall and strong. 🙏
The second anointing has been a huge shelf breaker for me.
Thank you for reposting this interview. This is so good.
It's interesting to hear from a man who had such a strong faith and a positive experience in the church for so many years who lost his faith because he has a strong sense of right and truth. I hope Tom's health allows for another discussion with him.
When I've finished listening I'm going to look for more from Tom.
This interview is incredible, thank you.
Best episode ever
It's not just the sheeple in the Church that are delusional the Second Anointing shows that the Brethren that are the real deluded ones thinking that they can lie cheat and obfuscate without any consequences from God. This so called "ordinance" makes pure mockery of the principles of repentance and the atonement.
Repentance and Atonement for what?
It's straight up blasphemy for them to say they decide someone receives exaltation. I'm not even religious but I'm offended that they would do such a thing. Salvation is judged by God not man, LDS church is a mockery of Christianity
Tom, for what it's worth seeing this interview last year pop up on my you tube feed healed my marriage in a way that I didn't even know needed to be healed. Thank you for your bravely. ❤️
This validated EVERYTHING that I have thought about the LDS Church. This is such a tragically, disheartening interview with a man who refused to be a hypocrite. This fine man had integrity, and he refused to compromise his values regarding those conflicting historical facts. And this Church supposedly espouses Christian principles? Honestly, what a dreary faith to practice.
So pleased I listened to this again, what a wonderful man, incredibly sad that his family have chosen to treat him so badly...and I'm still angry that church leaders have been so uncaring but sadly not surprised...
I was about to go look for these episodes on your website where I listened to them the first time, but I'm so glad you put them on here along with the others in this mini-series. Thank you!
Listened for the first time. Amazing👏🏻 Thanks John.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Such a great interview. Tom is inspiring. You were hard on him with you playing" Devils Advocate, I was upset at you, lol, but Tom's responses were clear, concise and very rational, logical and true. Elder Holland did what all the leaders do now. No real rational answers. All they can rely on is their warm and fuzzy elevated emotions. No answers. Nothing logical. Then they basically shame and threaten that you're listening to the devil and will lose everything by doing so.
Ruben J Clark said, “If the church is true, it cannot be harmed. If it is not true, it ought to be harmed.”
The first part of that quote says if it’s true it cannot be harmed so why is everyone so afraid to look at it? Seems maybe they believe on some level it’s not true. I feel so bad for Tom that his family is choosing the Church over him. That they won’t even be open to “look”. It reminds me of those Israelites who wouldn’t look at the staff Moses held up to be healed.
When someone makes a claim that has no hard evidence to back it up, the burden of proof is on them. If you tell me there's a big elephant in the kitchen, I'm going to have to see the elephant to believe it's true.
Awesome interview
Reading about Tom Philips kicked me over the edge - so important to have truth tellers
I admire you both so much for your humility and integrity. What an amazing interview and it is such a small world. Elder Wayne Peterson was my mission president and I love that man so much. When I woke up to the deceptions of the church, Wayne is one of those who I felt sad to disappoint with the newly discovered truth. However, if there is a God out there, He or She or It would be disappointed in me if I did not use my ability to reason and have the integrity to follow what is truly found. Keep up the great work!
Thank you... excellent interview ‼️‼️‼️
We need a follow up! This was one of my first Mormon Stories episodes that I listened to years ago. Where is he now?
Thanks for rerunning this interview on UA-cam. It's where I've been listening to Mormon Stories Podcast. I'd love to hear your story John Delin!
Thanks for sharing your story Tom. For all the information. I'm so sad to hear about your family's reaction. I hope things are better now ❤️
I am so glad I left the church just before my eldest son turned 18 what finished it for my 17 year old was he went to early morning seminary for 4 years and the last year he was in and out of hospital with Asthma and the bishop wouldn’t allow him to graduate and also his seminary teacher set up mini auction you got play money by remembering scriptures anyway another boy went and made copies of the money and my son wanted a quilt the class had made and right up to auction day he had the most money so I didn’t bid on anything else and when the quilt came up this other boy outbid my son and there was no way he had more money but the seminary teacher didn’t want to do anything about it because that family might stop going to church. So that was the final straw for him. My shelf broke when my ex came out as gay and I found out the bishop and stake president knew and neither one thought to tell me my ex was told go on a mission get married in the temple and his gayness would go away.
Terrible!!!the bishop and SP knew and kept that secret from you? Like so much more, hush, hush, secrets
What a great interview. It is so important that hear what is really going on inside the inner circle of the leaders of the church. Sadly, when you are in the church, people are so conditioned to ignore what is so obvious about the false claims of the doctrine of the church.
A fantastic interview. Loved hearing all the details about LDS. Earth only 6000 years old, so hard to believe anyone would believe this. Being honest, it was clear to see that Tom was still struggling with the lose of faith and seeking validation from the Bishops and Elders. I do hope he let go of that battle and found some peace.
Thank you for re-broadcasting this episode. So sad shunning people for how they believe. The church is not about families.
What if i had been willing to listen to this when it came out? Man....knowledge changes everything.
Tom is absolutely correct on all of his points. Everything he he is talking about was part of my journey out of the church. Listening to this conversation I have zero respect for brother Holland. Why can you say brother we love you unconditionally and I will pray for you. Nope nothing like that. And as far as his wife is concerned she is a very sad woman to give up her family and her children grandchildren stability for a religion. Nobody I know of that has any common Sense would give up the stability of their children grandchildren and future generations for a religion.
This really hit me hard. I got nauseous hearing about how Tom was treated by his family. It's every doubting or ex mormons worst fear. The church really does an exceptional job of dehumanizing anyone who's not a perfectly faithful member. Brainwashing people to the point they can turn against their "loved" ones the second a doubt is expressed.
@shermannorton. Truly,
Truly:
It MAKES SOME OF US PHYSICALLY ILL.
Every. Time.
And yet we want to be SURE.
SURE. SURE. SURE.
that we are not missing something, because we can't believe it is SUCH AN EVIL
CONTRIVANCE and CON.
💕🔥💕🔥
Tom, you are brave and courageous. I love you for it. I needed to hear this.
This was such a validating interview to listen to. I just completed my master's in marriage and family therapy, and the program director was also the stake president of the region. I remember sitting down and asking him why my abusive father was still given a temple recommendation. I remembered multiple people at church, including my bishop, referring to him as "scary,." Now, imagine how my seven siblings and I felt about him.
I had him read me the temple recommend questions, and I asked, "Where is the question about if you beat your children?"
And he was a little shocked and mentioned that he would be included in the question where he follows the commandments and teachings of the church and such. I said, "That's pretty broad and up for interpretation." My father believed in the "spare the rod, spoil the child" narrative and utmost obedience to parents. I'm sure he answered in what he thought was honest. He always talked about jeaus whipping the merchants in the temple. He believed he was being Christlike. Why was he not questioned?
This stake president, marriage and family therapist, and CFT program director specialized in children and parental relationships. I recall what he preached in classes, that corporal punishment only showed neutral at best, highly damaging at worst impacts on the children. Why on earth does our church, which I adamantly preached, values research and science (i.e., Our apostles are education, and the current prophet is a surgeon), cast a blind eye?
I asked him why women could not be sealed to multiple men, but men could be sealed to multiple women. And have no reasonable answer. I wondered every Bishop or stake president. I had this question since I was age 12 and found out that my mom had to annul her sealing to her dead husband, the father of my oldest brother, to be sealed to my dad. Each one gave me different answers varying in sexism and blind faith (my parents had to petition the 12 apostles for eight years until they accepted).
I had inquired why no members of the church had reached out to me as a "lost sheep" and heard my concerns. I wondered why my church mentors from my childhood ward no longer messaged me after I moved in with my boyfriend and now husband, a nonmember.
I only wanted to seek the truth, but they put many roadblocks in the way. Just answer my questions if you cannot, do more research. Stop telling me to "just have more faith". Women in the church are expected to blindly be lead by these male preishood holders despite their neglect, abuse, or ill intention.
I swore I would never be "anti-mormon" I grew up hating those people. But the more I learn the more I mourn. The more therapy clients I have come into my office with religious trauma, sexual disfuntion, unabounding guilt. I simply cannot support nor standby any longer.
Thanks for sharing your story 💙
I am heartbroken and fully understanding of the anger, disappointment, & sadness that is on full display in Mr. Phillips voice. To have faith in a God used to seperate a family is the worst example of where "faith" can lead peoole. 😢
I'm not mormon and have never been, but I'm intrigued with mormon stories. The rituals is fascinating and yet so scary.
I don't believe in God, Jesus or the Holy Ghost, the only thing I believe, is that most religions are cults.
I remember many years ago being told in the Temple visitors centre in Hawaii being told about the lack of horses and no evidence of the production of metal etc. At the time I brushed it off thinking that evidence will turn up. One day I woke up and now I’m listening. The only difference is my children did listen to the evidence and stayed away from the church. There is hope that things will change for the better.
When my first husband and I were both active, I used to get mad if he did something “wrong” according to church teachings and promises, but if he had ever said, “I don’t believe.” I would have respected that. When I stopped believing, my father respected that and loved me as much as ever.
Interesting hearing that Hillam was always an ass, after knowing what he did later.
One of my favorite episodes to date. I would love to hear a follow up from Tom Phillips!
I'm not mormon, but I found this interview to be absolutely captivating. I could not stop listening. I can't imagine what this would be for a mormon who is starting to question their faith.
What a powerful, heartbreaking, and deeply important interview.
I’m only an hour and 20 min in, but to keep things in perspective, let’s remember if a Jehovah Witness or Scientologist were to describe a similar ritual in their temple, to most here, it would be entirely insignificant, if not a bit comical. I’m sure the experience was and is touching, but Apostles and Prophets in the Mormon church are literally no different than every other human on earth. No judgement here, but It’s pretty funny when you see it. Old guys just playing pretend in their minds and people believing them. 😀
My thoughts exactly. It always has and always will drive me crazy how “the brethren” are put on a pedestal by the members. Even during this interview “oh yeah, I played tennis with him in college”. I just don’t get it?
Thank you for sharing. I was broken for many years after discovering the truth about mormonizam. I'm shocked just listening and still broken heart. I was baptized at 15 years old. I TRULY TRULY believed!!! I was often redirected to say Heavenly father instead of God when praying and end with Jesus Chris. I questioned that often why I couldn't start with God and end with "things I say in the name of Jesus Amen". Little did I know I wasn't praying to the one and only God of the Bible. It's totally a different heavenly father n Christ with spiritual mother. I pondered for many years seeking the truth and stayed away from the church. I live my life righteously for me!! I know I got nothing to worry about when I am with God and Jesus dwells in my heart. I now know I don't need to belong to a church to be safe
In the book of Matthew Jesus tells us how to pray
A man of integrity.
Heart wrenching!
I've personally been present when members would discuss of there is indeed such a thing as a second announting. I have even known a member who had taken the second annoyanting. SRM
It's fascinating how things change. When I was active in the church and believed everything the church taught I'd go looking for like minded Mormon youtubers and I'd avoid anything that felt it could go against my beliefs (because that's what you're taught when you're mormon/ taught to avoid anything and everything that may conflict/ oppose your views of Mormonism, and it's like what your taught alongside the way your mind works goes against you, I think we as humans naturally don't gel with what contradicts our world views, e.g. our minds have confirmation bias and whatever story we tell it, is the story it'll try to confirm to us, and when we find things that go against that story we naturally ignore it, though alongside that being growing up in Mormonism and having that as my identity it makes sense that it's easier to avoid things that may tear apart my Mormon beliefs because it hurts to have your identity and entire world view/ perspective torn apart, so avoiding things that disagree with what you believe is like a form of self preservation, the only trouble is there's no way of knowing how much or little your immediate beliefs are hurting or helping you, and you can't really see it unless you challenge those beliefs which when those beliefs are tied so strongly to your identity and world view can cause a lot of pain because you're also challenging your own identity and how you view the world.)
Anyway in short when I stopped attending and became less active I now have a lot of interest in channels like these that talk about the experiences of those who have left, and perspectives of those that don't agree with traditional Mormon views, pr completely disagree with them altogether.
Best episode ever.
Tom’s family couldn’t discuss his concerns about the Book of Mormon vs scientific evidence because they know that they don’t have a logical argument, in essence they’re sticking their fingers in their ears and going la la la. They have to banish him because he’s a reminder that they don’t have Truth behind their beliefs
Can’t believe Alan Phillips is a general authority now…well I can actually - I had quite the teenage crush and his testimony at youth conference was quite something even at 15😂
OMG THE MEMBERS ARE HURTING. THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE . JULY 2024
I am surprised Tom Phillips had such a honest experience in the church. As I grew up in the church I was always aware there was and inside truth and an outside truth. Covering up the inside truth was part and parcel of being a member. I knew the inside truth would not hold up to scrutiny. Not because of later revelations of the history of the church because I didn't have that knowledge then but of things like polygamy and blacks and the priesthood things like that which we were taught by example to cover up. Mr. Phillips seems to have not had that experience somehow.
About the year 1983 our Ward exed a family when it was found out the husband was receiving revalations on who shoud become one of his many plurl wife. Upset many ward members. Disfellowship. I often wondered how they kept such a sensative event out of the public news.
I imagine Tom Phillips is feeling so betrayed by the GA's because he was a somebody in the church. I have noticed the somebodies of the church who lose their faith have a large expectation of being considered personally. We the nobodies in the church never expected anything from them when we left. In fact we hope for them to leave us alone. If they had no interest in us when we were active members why would we expect anything after we leave.
Your podcasts are SO interesting to me! Having never been a mormon, but raised strict protestant, I just don't understand religions at all!! What does all this business, programs, and dogma have to do with true spirituality? We don't need churches or bibles or books that are mythical in my opinion! Should we not be thinking about just helping others and being kind and uplifting our fellow humans? And the secrecy? It is ridiculous. And the expense of religious churches and buildings rather than feeding and medically caring for those in need. I rather lean toward eastern teachers, like Buddha. (Buddha was a teacher, not a savior). This man is so brave and honest! If all humans would live by truth and honesty, what a wonderful world this would be! I love that he is a critical thinker!!
Sorry to hear this🖤!
1:42:07 it was also a professor at BYU that initially started my shelf to crack.
When Tom was getting upset about all the gas lighting, lies, racism, and fraud of the Book of Abraham it really hit home for me. I went through the same thing. I too am alone, now. The only member of my family and friends no longer in the church.
What does brother Phillips think about the lack of transparency of church finances?
I have an ex friend, when we were kids , we told stories. He later used our stories and made up a religion , saying he found plates and translated them by god. It’s a restored branch of Jesus Christ, oddly gaining respect in the LDS church lol. If that can happen then Joseph could have easily had stories since childhood and merely wrote them later as the Book of Mormon.
This is great. He speaks with such conviction and really explains his process.
John, you are so amazing at playing devil's advocate and not just agreeing with the person on their views. You thoughtfully challenge them, which brings out deeper content out of the speaker. Brilliant! You're also asking the questions that I'm sure many people may be thinking to themselves in their heads as the speaker is going on, and it gives them a chance to really solidify their views.
Ex you asked "Why not take a non literal view of religion? It does a lot of good things, be practical..." (a point that many of us wrestle with after having discovered the same truths as you and Tom ie Treasure, Polyandry, etc) and it gives space for Tom to talk about the "good fruits of the church" could be provided in other organizations but they don't contain the bad fruits that the church does. Brilliant!
Tom is brilliant.
Thank you so much
Brilliant!
i listened to this episode about two weeks ago - loved it! definitely THE most relevant and important episode ever i think. i remember hearing him mention 19 reasons for not believing anymore. i want to compile a similar list for future conversations and confrontations i will have about “why” i don’t think the church is true anymore. my current list is very short. i cannot find the timestamp for that list, does anybody know it / have the list?!
Thank you Tom. You are a brave man.
I would love to hear an audiobook narrated by Tom.
I feel that a lot of Tom's problem is that he has hurt feelings because no one came to rescue him. These beefs be has with the church have been around since the church was organized.
Hno. Phillips, todavia tienes el espiritu! Regresa al redil querido hermano! Regresa, te amamos ❤️. - Pure Lehite 🇲🇽
What we know now is you cannot just drop all that information on your family after you’ve had time to process not believing your faith. He sat them all down and told them and kept reaching out to them just telling them all these truths. I can see how is family reacted this way. As much as his wife didn’t want to hear it he should had a conversation with her first and discussed how to go about telling their adult kids which he should have done maybe one on one. Also easing into why you don’t believe. If they want to hear tell them if they don’t respect that that leave it alone. They don’t OWE you a conversation, as much as you would want to have one. I recently left Christianity and my husband still believes. It’s hard to not make snide remarks, but DON’T. It gives off an air of you think you’re better than them because now you don’t believe. DON’T force your new found beliefs on them or anybody. I feel extremely sorry for him but him trying to force conversations and emails did him no favors. Hopefully he is able to make amends with his family. But it’s seem he wants them to believe the truth and leave the church (which they should) but that’s not our place to make someone follow us even when we know it’s true.
I agree with you. The desperately seeking validation was painful to hear. Making nasty comments, does give a quick ease of the pain, but unfortunately brings it back two fold. I hope he found peace.
@@sharryhm
Very good advice I’ve just recently gone through this, and I genuinely just wanted to share the truth with my brothers, thinking that if they found out the truth like I had, it would be just as obvious to them 😅 it wasn’t
Great episode. Thank you very much. Very honest and a smart introspect on the part of Mr. Phillips. I too no longer subscribe to the truth claims of the Church. John, will you please provide us the citations of the papers Mr. Phillips referenced (Rhodes, the paper Mr. Phillips was given from BYU, etc.)?
Thanks!
I wonder if there is an update on Mr. Phillips' story. Very moving.
It seems that perhaps if tom had received a proper scientific education he never would have fallen for the book of mormon. Maybe its just the time of his life he finllaly thought about it
First clue, Joseph Smith was a known con man. A loving spouse should be supportive and caring.
"All Things in Moderation"... Including Religion.
Reminiscing of listing to the Saber Rattlers from the old intros.
Yyyeeesssss! This guy is a genius about the king James language and Quran.
Wow. Just wow.
I’m really curious how this interview landed on John’s heart. I know he tried to remain neutral as the interviewer, but since he was still technically active at the time of this interview (I think, right?) I would think the power of this story might have moved him, one way or the other, on his own journey.
Thank you for posting this. This episode is the most heart breaking and also the most important I've ever heard. I'm so sorry totally innocent and honest people have to go through these things. This show how dishonest people are brought up to be in the Mormon church. As soon as they discover a grain of truth they shun it and call it evil. Then who do they really worship? This church was once called "The Islam of the West", and it's not difficult to see why. They kept women as cattle and worshipped racism, and now they're trying to sweep their past under the rug, lying about it all. This has nothing to do with any kind of goodness, Mammon is their real god.