The King of Stealth Gaming
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
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THE NTH REVIEW #11! He didn’t think it could be done, but it can be done! Nick tackles the entire Thief series, all four games, full of stealth gameplay and evasive action. That’s Thief: The Dark Project, Thief 2: The Metal Age, Thief: Deadly Shadows and Thief, the 2014 reboot. Enjoy this epic new eleventh Nth Review!
Also, there were about a dozen more blackjacks I couldn’t fit in because I’d already set the markers in Premiere and you couldn’t mass-move them. You’ll know what I’m talking about.
NOTE: Nearly all the footage I used in this video for Thief: Deadly Shadows has been brightness/contrast corrected. It might look garish at times, but I had no idea how much darker the game was until I started editing it alongside everything else and it was borderline unusable until I started altering the footage. Hopefully it's not too annoying!
I'mma... gonna take a short break for a minute.
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Amazing Vaporwave/Hypnowave by Pitfall.
( / pitfall-3 )
@arstechnica - War Stories on Thief w/ Paul Neurath • How Thief's Stealth Sy...
@GrimBeard - Thief: The Dark Project
• Grimbeard - Thief: The...
Joseph Anderson - Why Horror Games Don’t Scare Me • Why Horror Games Don't...
TTLG thread with conversation transcriptions
www.ttlg.com/forums/showthrea...
Garage Games thread talking about generation of stealth volumes: www.garagegames.com/community/...
Thief: Postmortem by lead programmer Tom Leonard: www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...
Ahead of its time: The History of Looking Glass (Polygon, Mike Mahardy)
www.polygon.com/2015/4/6/8285...
Thief: Troubled Development
www.polygon.com/2013/4/26/426...
The Dark Mod Fan-Made Thief
• The Dark Mod Official ...
Thievery Mod trailer
• Unreal Tournament-Thie...
The modern day Thief reboot that never was (Thief 4: The Dagger of Ways)
www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...
Penny Arcade: They Are Genuinely Interested
www.penny-arcade.com/comic/20...
Noclip - The Untold History of Arkane: Dishonored / Prey / Ravenholm / LMNO / The Crossing
www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4kdq...
Report: Thief 4 Development in Trouble
www.engadget.com/2012-06-14-r...
FleshEatingZipper - Games Journalism is Bullshit and Other Secrets You Didn’t Know
www.flesheatingzipper.com/gami...
MW2 footage - @L1011Widebody
Silent Service gameplay - @Kelsey Polnik
Gauntlet Arcade gameplay - @AmitDabydeen
Descent gameplay - @Kaizen Kitsune
Goldeneye gameplay - @3iikka
Skyrim lockpick gameplay - @NimsTV
Splinter Cell lockpick gameplay - @AFGuidesHD
Condemned: Criminal Origins gameplay - @VergilHiltsLT
0:00 Intro
0:41 1. First-Person (Not) Shooter - History
25:50 2. Painting the Whole City Dark - Storytelling
48:42 3. Drawing the String Tight - Gameplay
2:08:10 4. A Shot in the Dark - Thief: The Dark Project/Gold
2:54:00 5. Refining the Edges - Thief 2: The Metal Age
3:31:57 6. A New Age - Thief: Deadly Shadows
4:12:32 7. The Reboot - Thief (2014)
5:06:22 8. Conclusion
5:11:40 Outro - Ігри
>Thief
>Nth Review
>5 hours
you had me at hello
*bows politely*
Regarding Garret's strange perpetual poverty: I think it's mainly the third game that drops the ball on this. The first two has it more or less covered. Garret is not a popular or particularly known thief at the start of the first game. You can find hints that Victoria is scouting for a "good burglar" in most of the early missions yet it's only after Garret makes a scene out of his revenge on Ramirez that she notices him. The first three missions form an arc where Garret puts in a lot of effort without getting properly paid (Horn of Quintus being his consolidation prize). When Garret takes Constantine's offer it's because he's finally found a break that can get him out of independent low-life thieving and into retirement. Of course he never gets his payday. The second game's reasoning is a little less convincing since Garret is breaking into places that by all accounts should make him rich all on his own, but the main idea stressed through the story is that the new city watch has been so hard on crime it's impossible to move any goods. The third game, however, just gives up on all that - Garret has no reason to be poor at that point but somehow still is.
Lmao imagine having to live in eternal poverty as your unbreakable plot
When I played the trilogy, I had a sense that Garrett steals because he likes it. But there is also something to consider about - it's highly unlikely he steals as much as he does in the games every single night. There ought to be many breaks to thieving considering Garrett has to sell what he stole, and most importantly he has to lay low for a long time so as not to get unwanted attention. It also doesn't help that the local IRS would be interested in how a poor commoner can suddenly afford luxury goods.
@@SuperLeshina While Garret surely takes pride in his work he definitely steals out of necessity. The first two games constantly harps on about how he has trouble paying his rent. In the first game he plans on retiring as soon as he can get his hand on some decent money. In the second game he, at one point, is so poor (and without access to good fences due to the new city watch) that he fears having to go back to pickpocketing people on the streets.
@@GepardenK Well, when a single arrow cost $300 of course he's going to stay broke.
I hadn't really thought about it before this video, but I'm inclined to imagine that currency in the Thief games has about the same degree of stability as Woolongs do in Cowboy Bebop, where the price of an apple can be W10 one day and W100,000 the next.
When the existing governments and banks have no oversight whatsoever, you can imagine that the people in charge of money might be regularly fucking with its value, to gain wealth arbitrarily though manipulating the exchange rate, (which you may be unsurprised to learn has happened recently in real life,) or something to that effect.
The net result being that attempting to actually hoard money is kind of pointless, because it could worthless the next time you need it, so it really only makes sense to make and use money when you need it, (or have an arrangement where part of your pay comes in the form of food and lodging.) Since Garrett is *never* gainfully employed, he probably both doesn't have a good sense of how the financial system works (other than knowing that he needs more finances at all times) and isn't getting a place to live as part of his compensation.
It's possible that being able to afford rent in the City at all is rather opulent, and that most people would simply work for their landlords instead, resulting in the situation where Garret is now, constantly complaining about rent.
The devs of Thief 4 might have claimed to "love" the thief trilogy, but it's obvious they didn't understand it. They didn't understand level design, characters, incentive to explore, narrative or pushing the limited engine out to do what you can with it instead of just make it look pretty to sell it to people who like shiny things. The closest they came to a Thief experience was in (I think chapter 6,) the Asylum, but everything else feels wrong. People have called it Square Enix fan fiction but I wouldn't even be that kind to it.
It was an abomination.
Yeah they ruined any future for the franchise. Modders created a better story years prior with “shadows of the metal age”. It was a cash grab product. It’s a shame there are no companies putting out such incredible games like looking glass did. I’m 30 now, and nothing comes close to these narrative dark stories today, and I really don’t think it’s nostalgia.
So, I loved 1 and 2 way back when. You guys reckon it's not worth checking out?
@@TrigonAZR It's very different, you may like it, but I did not
@@TrigonAZR I really enjoyed Thief 4 but on that note, I have never played Thief 1 and 2, I have only played 3 and 4. I like 4 just as much if not more than 3, it is somewhat linear, but I don't think its nearly as linear as the haters try and make it out to be. There are multiple ways to get to you goals on every map. I would basically say its a medieval version of Deus Ex Human Revolution.
I played though Thief 1 and 2 after watching Civvie 11. I played them on Expert, and despite the aged graphics and janky mechanics and exploitable AI, they were addictive and immersive, and a rewarding feeling to figure stuff out without a walkthough. A lot of the fun was also being able to do anything and get away with it within the confines of the game engine. Knocking out everything, putting out every light, disabling security, etc. Even with impatience it becomes an exciting challenge to rush into a hallway, knock out a guard, then reload a quick save if you failed again and again. The game got terrible in the endgame missions though.
I got so addicted that I started playing Thief2x and got blown away with what fans could push the game engine to do.
I think the appeal of it is pretty much also reliant on the limitations the game had. The more I played Thief, the more I retroactive realised how much of an influence Thief had on newer games, including Skyrim.
Without walkthrough, thief is pain in the ass though. The monster levels are very confusing and mazelike making the navigation difficult.
“They haven’t played Thief 2014...” uh...I most certainly did play it...twice. It was garbage both times.
Thief 1 and 2 are exceptional, Thief 3 fell way short of the mark and we don't speak about Thief 4.
I watched Gopher raging and quitting Thief 4 for not having an AI at all. That was a sad realization.
There is no theif 4 and 3 isnt actualky that bad esoecially with commi ity.mod. lole how we have to mod theif 1 and 2
Did you even watch the video? 😂
Thief 3 is still a great game, imo, it just can't compete with the two masterpieces that preceded it, but that doesn't make it bad, though it has its fair share of flaws (much smaller levels, no rope arrows, somewhat buggy/clunky animations, and so on).
Didn't play Thief 2014, but I'm surprised that the author appreciated it, it's not well liked within the community.
Thief 4 is fun though lmao, perfectly fine game
Sooo.... my uncle (through marriage) was the release engineer for Looking Glass. I believe you mentioned his handiwork with the installers. He is credited as the Coffee Spokesmodel in most of their credits (in some form) due to his time around the coffee machine. His name is Dave Teichholtz. Hes currently developing stuff for a cosmetics company using python... he never was a gamer nor did he play the games he helped develop.
Neat!
@@NthReview I too do not get why was this important to let us know.
That's awesome! Every once in a while the comments have secret insider tidbits you'll never see anywhere else
@@pile1983 its not important sometimes its just a neat lil story someone thought to share.
Rope arrows not only work on wood but all other soft surfaces, including carpet and soil. And they can stick to walls and even floors if they have a soft material.
I'm very curious, where would that be helpful?
@@NthReview In a lot of places, most notably in The Sword and The Mage Towers. It's just that for such an in-depth review having such misinformation is quite odd.
@@ykcaks Well, I did mention in The Mage Towers that I did finally find some surfaces where I could intuitively pull out my rope arrows and it worked. I think somewhere in my research I read that it was only ceilings they worked on and, mentally, I wouldn't shoot other lateral surfaces to use them, like Vine arrows would end up doing.
Thank you for pointing that out!
@@NthReview interesting stuff. I learned afew things from seeing what the youtibe videos from civie11 made as well
I absolutely adore Thief the Dark Project. Its a masterpiece of atmosphere, tension and stealth. This is not nostalgia either as I first played it in 2013 not 1998. Very few games can engross me and make me feel immersed as Thief. Great video by the way im working my way through it.
I played it in 2021when I was 18 and I was born in 2003 and I still loved thief 1 and 2. Definitely not nostaligia haha
Dude! You have to play the dark parade! It is amazing and is a perfect addition to the dark project 😁
@@KaptajnKaffe I downloaded it day 1. I just need to find the time to play it. Thief is best played when you have long hours of uninterrupted peace
@@casualcadaver totally agree! On another note, I am currently playing the dark parade with 2 kids in the house 🤣
@@KaptajnKaffe How are you liking it ?
He fights through the first two game, why??? It is a stealth game, most levels are easy even on expert difficulty...
You are Garrett a master thief not a killer!!! (That is why he is a MASTER Thief!)
Well, as I mention in the review, it's a mixture of spaces that are too tight, enemies that find you too easily in the darkness and it just being freaky-deaky. It's more the first game than the second.
@@NthReview No! You need to use all the tools that the game provides, lean on corners, listen to noises and use the environment to your own benefit, so the Guards can't hear or see you!!! So you need to use moss and water arrows! And you can use even enemies against each other (living things vs Undead)...
And the game is full off info on stuff, people and you can listen to the Guards as well (when you enter the kitchen you can read the note of Ramirez to his servent, and you can folow the servent to Ramirez secret room, but you have to be stealthy to do that!!! You made everythig more harder when you set up the alarm).
And the maps are crap on the first game because they are old or people don't like to go to the place so Garrett can't find and get a full detailed map (old City and the seald area of the City, or the Crypt...). And you mised a lot of info on importent stuff (for exemple that Constantine payed pure Gold for his wired Mansion...).
You have taken time in System Shock to find info why you didn't do that in this games? You where rushing things just to get trough, and that way you made your life more difficult! That's why you was not able to enjoy the Game! :(
@@chaoscontrolsok He also made the comment that enemies respawn which is blatantly untrue. I agree that its strange for such a long video to be so poorly researched.
To your theory about Erin being the girl at the end of Thief 3: No, she's not. I suspected that Thief 4 happens a few hundred years after the actual Garrett that we know from Thief 1 to 3, but for me the reasons why this isn't the girl or the Garrett from earlier games are not tied to the timeline. For example: When you go to the Moira asylum, you find a special loot near the end. It's a mechanical eye, it's a reference of course, but very likely the one of the original Garrett. Also: The Garrett we play in Thief 4 still has his biological eye. The original Garrett had lost his, which was replaced with a mechanical one. So Garrett from Thief 4 is not the original one... unless he can regrow an eye that is ;)
Erin alludes to Garrett in one of those dream-scenes that they are brother and sister ("Big brother knows best"), and he swiftly replies in kind to that notion by being this same big brother ("I tried to tell you but you wouldn't listen"). Also a short scene is played where their father is heard berating them as kids (as seen in your video). The girl at the end of Thief 3 was a random girl trying to pickpocket the original Garrett, who seemingly never saw this girl before. So that is another reason why the girl is not Erin.
All this makes the setup of Thief 4 problematic and implausible. Because: It is unlikely that a few hundred years down the line another Masterthief named Garrett emerges, and he totally by coincidence has a main-fence whose name is "Basso". Unless Basso is a family name, and the job as a fence is a family tradition handed down the centuries while the descendants remain in the exact same places is a thing here, I would say it is just not a good story design. I am all for reboots, but this is just ripping off the previous games for recognition while still trying to distance themselves so severely that we have to scratch our heads over it.
Erin was an orphan taken in by the brothel, then later Garrett. They aren't siblings. Part 2 of tales from the city covers it.
Only at 0:22 seconds in but this is already my favorite video of the year!
I mean FIVE HOURS of Thief?
You Taffer!
I hope you enjoy the rest too!
@@NthReview So I just finished the whole thing. WOW! What a great video! I can't imagine how many hours you spent on making this. As a die-hard fan of the series, I found myself disagreeing with some of your points. But that is probably because these games have been a part of my life since I was three years old and they mean a lot to me :D
Thanks to you, I'm going to replay Thief 2014 now. Keep up the great work!
Thank you! Next Review is well on the way....
I am shocked how hard of a time you've had with gold... you've missed everything... it's not counterintuitive at all...
Sabotage at Soulforge is the boss of stealth missions...
Blasphemy!
Hard disagree, either framed or LoTP
You deserve way more views with all the effort you put in!
Thank you so much!
Bro it’s such an honor to be early to your rise
There’s literally no way you don’t become a niche-leading content creator if you keep all this up
Na, I didn't make it past minute 3. The war in the Ukraine. Afganistan with 13 dead American's and two billion dollars in military supplies left to enemies of America. The worst economy since the 1980s. Gas prices at an historic all-time high, hurting all of America like a kick in the balls. Poverty stricken cities getting even more poor because of the bad economy and the list goes on and on. Let's go, Brandon. And if World War 3 does happen because of "Sleepy" Joe, it will be memorable all right, in blood and death. I'll bet that the entire Nation of Ukraine wishes that Joe had gotten caught stealing the election and shot for treason right about now, as their loved-ones die, because America today is too damn weak to save itself from the stupid, the insane, and the weak to save anyone now.
I Love the Original Thief Series but Thief 2014, was an utter disappointment.
What's your favorite Thief game in the series? Do you have a favorite level/daring escape? Let me know below!
ERRATA: In TDP, Rope Arrows will work on walls and ground surfaces, not just ceilings, provided they are compliant surfaces like soil or wood. I was incorrect here.
It is hard because the first three were so damn good. Metal Age for me.
Legit pick!
Dishonored 2
It's been a while since I played the Thief games. Last time I played through the trilogy, I remember liking the third game the best, despite all its issues. Never played the 2014 game though. Every time I see it, it looks beautiful. I kind of wanna try it some day just for the environment art.
I tend to like the big mansion levels where you're mostly just thieving. And I remember the spooky, horror focused Shalebridge Cradle type levels really disappointed me.
deadly shadows is MY best overall. lots of stealth options, eye candy that can still hold up (for me), atmosphere/sound/story. admittedly, I do need to go back to the first two sometime. waiting for an opportunity to get a proper surround system, or headphones though.
Just posted a comment before seeing your question but Thief 3 has always been my favourite.
As for a favourite level... that's tough. I guess most people would say The Cradle from T3.
Hmmm come to think of it T3 overall had some good levels. The Museum with the floating Eye at the end for example. Or the The House of the Widow Moira - i really liked this one.
In Thief 1 it was the level where you'd have to steal the sword and T2 the eavesdropping in Karras's Tower, Angelwatch.
thief 3 deserves more love than it gets. I hope it gets re-analysed now that some time has passed and the scholarly analysis of it is more fair. I think people just really dogpiled on it when it came out and then consistently just compared it unfavorably to 1 and 2 without recognizing all the things 3 did really well, even better than the first two games. it feels like fans of the series never gave 3 a fair shake. It's definitely my favorite of the series.
Agree 100%. PC gamers at the time were really getting irritated about games beginning to become developed with consoles at the same time and some of the trade-offs thay came with it. DS really got the brunt of it back then, especially after how poorly Invisible War handled.
Just posted a comment and then saw yours.
And couldn't agreee more. Thief 3 is for me, 'til this day, the best installment of the series.
@@NthReview please do an Alien 2013 review. I think you'll love it. Its a great stealth/horror game.
the controls were clunky and third person made it impossible to react as fast as the first 2 games, that's what annoyed me the most in that game, but it was a good game
Yeah its been getting picked up. I started it maybe year or so sgo still working on it as ibeen busy. Its not that oad. I also using the fan patches from 1 2 and 3
Re Garrett not noticing the situation in T1:
Garrett is a selfish guy (why not given how most everyone in the world is primarily out for themselves) who wasn't interested in being a hero [anti-hero is the technical term]. Also, he probably become very jaded in his time with the Keepers given this most altruistic of factions in the setting actively avoid using the prophecies to do any good in the city.
Further, the money was really good and he certainly didn't believe in the Hammer mythology. As a result, he didn't see the signs of anything weird or unusually supernatural going on around him. He certainly would become more cautious in future about deals too good to be true.
Interesting thought, but if he was familiar with the Keeper lore and then just decided to write it off as fiction... and then saw it actually coming to life, like, that's either intentional Trumpian arrogance or intentional stupidity. Either way, it makes me like Garrett substantially less despite his "redemption" through the trilogy.
There's an interview with Ken Levine somewhere where he mentioned that he wanted Garret to be a "proper" anti-hero. Levine was disgruntled with the 'criminal with a heart of gold' trope and instead wanted to have a hero that was a true bad guy. We like Garret, not because he is likable, but because everything is viewed from Garretts perspective and Garrett loves himself.
Garrett obviously knew Constantine was into magic and up to no good. He just didn't care - working for evil pays. He gets fooled because he's clearly more greedy than he is wise.
This only gets confusing in retrospect as the sequels subtly start to move away from Levine's original vision for Garrett and make a more classical protagonist interpretation of him.
@@GepardenK good point about the greed over wisdom and a daah of pride
When you were talking about how you couldn't play with stealth and got confused all the time I was very surprised and then you mentioned you were a games journalist so that explained that. Haha liked the review a lot though, a much more indepth and fair review of the overall quality of the game rather then how some reviews focus on exclusively story or mechanics independent of the other.
Ha, glad you enjoyed!
29:15: Garret has hearing! No other game did sound propagation so well or made it such a big focus. Garret can control the amount of noise he makes and his spatial hearing is exceptional. It's why you're able to play the game
I know!
@@NthReview well that's his superpower
@@alexlokanin3312 well remmeebr how the keepers picked him up as a kid. With. O experience avle to swioe from them. Now with training and experience so there is that
The maps were method of diegetic UI, kind of. You had maps drawn by people, from memory and their rough understanding of the world around them, not GPS views in a world with no satellite imaging. I love them. The better maps are because you gained access to an actual architect's designs.
I like that as mechanic concept, say for example you have an expert tier objective which is difficult to reach but gives you a very detailed map for the next mission, playing on hard the map you steal is missing a few details but still good. And on normal, there's no map to be found.
Thief Deadly Shadows is absolutely underrated! What made me mad about the reboot was that they didn't go with the small girl who tries to pickpocket Garrett. They called the main character Garrett, robbed him of all of his personality and distinctive voice, for what?
Oh, and they say 'fuck' not 'taff'. No thanks.
You can sort of see how Thief 2014 tries to be both a sequel and a reboot. Erin is clearly the girl from the end of Thief 3. And there are hints of mechanists in the game, even if as a faction they don't exist.
Very much disagree with your assertion that Deadly Shadows is the best in the trilogy (though I also don't think it's nearly as bad as people like to portray, even today) but I really like and appreciate your perspective on it and it's interesting what about it hooked you as opposed to the original two games
You could whack the dead machines blocking your way into chunks you can pick up. It takes 9 hits with the blackjack. You could also kill them with the blackjack if you strafe or stunlock them.
For the original series' fans, pushing through 2014's painfully linear levels, eliminating player freedom wherever possible, and gazillion set pieces, is exactly the same pain as pushing through the dark project was for you. Not to mention scrapping the factions and in general a bogus, unconvincing storyline making it feel bland and unrewarding. Seriously, if the makers of 2014 said they were fans of the original series then I have no idea what the hell they had played :P
I may disagree with many of your opinions, but still, watching a FIVE FREAKIN HOUR long review of Thief series is a delight. Great to see that even today it's still remembered and talked about not only by the hardcore fanbase. Cheers!
I'm really enjoying the video so far, even if I disagree with your points most of the time.
A lot of people already mentioned some of the innacuracies, so I won't go there.
Maybe I got the wrong impression, but I believe the reason you had so many "where the hell do I go" moments is because you lacked patience and atention. I hate to be the "you're playing it wrong" guy, but looking at your gameplay footage it's hard not to, with all the sword fighting, enemy killing (it IS a STEALTH game after all), not using the tools that are given to you (moss arrows, compass, etc.) and others.
I realize I have the benefit of having played these games to death, but even when I first played them, back in 2013, I didn't get as disoriented as you. A more recent and better example is a friend of mine who played Thief 1/2 for the first time last year and even he didn't have that much trouble figuring out what to do.
But hey, I know these titles are quite niche and not for everyone, so it's all good.
I hope I didn't come off as rude and condescending, because, again, I'm really liking the video so far. It's a really impressive effort, which deserves all the props I can give!
Cheers!
Thank you for the reply!
@@NthReview Just finished the Thief 2 chapter. Not gonna lie, the "Sabotage at Soulforge is the worst mission in the series" statement kinda pissed me off.
Also, Garrett wanting to know more about the prophecies is not sudden, it's something that slowly develops throughout the game, starting with his willingness to go eavesdrop the meeting between Karras and Truart. It's developed even more with his alliance with Viktoria, culminating with the Soulforge incident.
A little sidenote: Karras not knowing about the servants' return makes sense. Mechanist technology may be advanced when compared to the Hammerites, but it's not like he has tracking devices or computer screens... The Watchers aren't actual cameras. They're just that: watchers.
Still a good video though. I appreciate your honesty. I'm excited to see the rest! :)
@@MetalTaffer Surprisingly, no one's had an actual conversation with me about Soulforge, yet! I personally find it harder to believe that Karras was ignorant of pretty much everything we're talking about, but somehow had tabs on Garrett when it was Victoria performing all the action in the opening cutscene. I know I'm not alone on Soulforge, but I understand it has its defenders and I'm not mad at them for it ;)
@@NthReview Yeah, when it comes to Soulforge I'm more in the middle. I don't love it or hate it... I merely tolerate its existence. I just don't think it's worse than the Thieves' Guild, for example. It had a really cool System Shock-ish vibe, though. But I do agree that it really overstays its welcome.
Remember that Karras wasn't all there by the end of the game, even developing a god complex. I don't think it's too far fetched to assume he was too consumed by his own ego to notice any possible foil to his plan.
@@MetalTaffer I agree that Karras was really egotistical, to the point that he could have been blinded by it, but really, if it weren't for Garret's intervention, he would've gotten away with such a large plan with pretty much zero opposition. Thieves Guild is a really, really rough level, absolutely, but I did feel it was more on-point philosophically and design-wise, whereas Soulforge really just felt like a grab-bag of whatever they could put together in the last moments of development.
Only thirty minutes in(to this - sincerely - excellent video), but I am TRIGGERED by the amount of NOT-stealthing you've recorded. Like, outside of the dev photos/videos, it's ALL Garrett getting seen/chased/attacked.
Moving on... :D
EDIT: Love, love, LOVE your video reviews (watched/liked a half-dozen already!) and deconstructions; HARD disagree about Thief 1 & 2.
And Thief (4) is...*not* a Thief game. It's a wonderful stealth-em-up...but it ain't a Thief game.
I just sat back and watched this like a movie, to echo the last comment you put SO much effort into this and I loved every minute of it. I’m a huge Thief (Metal Age) fan and just listening to you nerd out on all of the instalments (and with such delightful wit) just made me SO HAPPY and nostalgic for late nights as a kid getting freaked out and frustrated in equal parts by that game. Thank you, you are awesome. I want to go play it again RIGHT NOW.
Thank you so much!
"Eyerolls at Garrets simple motivations,"
Bro, he's a thief. Who steals. For money. That's a perfect motivation for a self-interested asshole like him. I absolutely love that when he accidentally trips into endangering, and then haphazardly saving, the world; he does so 'cause if he doesn't, HE dies. I mean you could argue his best friend is Basso, and that speaks volumes about his character and is hilarious.
I don't like the idea that he's a narrow-minded idiot considering the gravitas of which he's played and the humorlessness of it all. There's so much texture in this universe and the idea that Garret is this kind of dunce is really... not great.
@@NthReview I'm not saying he's stupid or sense by any means, I'm saying that he's genuinely self interested and has no real desire to do anything more than get by and get kicks stealing from the wealthy elite (who he has a clear and open disdain for)
That being said, the man DID get tricked into summoning a vengeful elder God one time...
@@versebuchanan512 Well, that was pretty funny if not entirely illogical lol.
I loved the video, as I love any in depth review of this franchise, but you did get quite a few things wrong. I won't get into it as a lot of people have mentioned most of them, but Thief 4 has nowhere near the same quality of sound design, nor can you rely on sound in the same way you can with the other games.
Yeah, the audio of 4 isn't as functional as the others, no, but I appreciate you watching!
Thank you for answering the one question I couldn't find an answer to in previous research: the relation (or lack thereof) between Randy and Harvey Smith.
You're very welcome :)
It was such a FAQ over the past decades, I'm astounded you didn't find it in a quick search!
@@ehcmier Admittedly I didn't spend very long looking. Checked their respective wikipedia pages and then decided I could live with not knowing haha
Love all the games, with the Metal Age having a special place in my heart. That game is almost heaven
I remember in Thief 3 before the Sneaky Upgrade was even thought of by its creator, the only way to go to Pavelock Prison was by opening the grate in the Pagan Sanctuary in Auldale (you know, where this Hammerite - Inspector Drept - lives nearby and who you have to visit to advance the story about the hag) and jumping down into the water. This was the only water region that did not kill you, but instantly made the screen go black and the male voice announced you've been caught and you would now go to prison. Every other water surface of the game just killed you back then (that was years before the Sneaky Upgrade was developed).
To be clear: I had no idea back then how to go to that prison at first, or that this prison even exists. I opened the grate by shear coincidence and by being nosy of what might be down there; then fell into the water below and found out. I expected Garrett to die, but as mentioned: He just goes to prison.
That was not mentioned anywhere in the game. There were no hints that this was the "entrance" to the prison - you had to find it on your own, and you could only find it fairly far into the game, because access to Auldale is granted on day six of the Thief 3 story I believe, and not sooner, which is pretty late in the story. I always found that to be out of context, and I still believe going to prison through this grate in Auldale was some kind of unfinished or bugged way to end up in that special level.
With the Sneaky Upgrade just about every water surface, regardless where you're at in the story, is getting you to prison. Once you've been there, the prison gate in South Quarter is open and from then on you can just enter it like any other area.
Very interesting! The game really does not present that kind of information at all.
@@NthReview Yes, indeed. Thinking of it: The prison level might have been cut in a sense from the game. I mean, because this strange way to go to prison is so out of order for this game, that it might very well be the case, that the developers just shut off all the water surfaces to get you to prison, except for this one in Auldale. They might just have overlooked it, because there is no other way to go to prison in the game without the Sneaky Upgrade (and even with that upgrade: You gotta have to jump into the water for that? What a strange way to go to prison). Anyway, since the Sneaky Upgrade is a single executable, the original unchanged game can still be loaded at any time... so it can be tested if this water below the grate really is the only place in the game to go to prison.
I was so taken by surprise when I accidentally fell in water and then awoken in prison. It was such a cool moment, even if it felt random.
Assasin's Creed a stealth game? Pffffft, barely. Eagle, tell me where every single enemy is at all times!
I was hyped af for AC. then played it and was like.. where is the stealth?! so it was a resounding meh.
Theftmatch sounds really pog. Imagine sneaking together through a guarded mansion and you have to balance greed and time and risk getting exposed.
Totally! Ever play Monaco? Similar vibes.
@@NthReview thanks for suggestion! apparently monaco 2 is coming soon, now in stunning 3D
The fact that i was recomended this gem 2 years late, is a crime against me.
1:22:57 You never used moss arrows? When i played through Thief 1&2 i used them all the time, super useful to reliably create a silent path over stone or metal, for example if you want to blackjack a particularly annoying grunt.
Eh, nah. It was always easier in my head to just save scum and blackjack than strategically layout moss.
@@NthReview I had the same experience with Thief 1 as you did, i liked the game technically, but it was often times a chore to get through. I think this is the type of game that you have to play with hindsight. As you said, fans of Thief have played the game multiple times. I think they don't even remember their first time playing it. I think if i played through it again i would enjoy myself a lot more. However, to play through it for the first time is really something i had to force myself to.
Yeah, definitely. I mention it on yesterday's stream (Fallout and Chill) where reviewing games as old and as reputable as Thief 1 and 2 is kind of a minefield. With my Deus Ex review, the game was great when it came out and it was great when I played it for the third time all the way through last year, so I made a positive review that fans could like and that was that. But fans of those old Thief games don't really want to see a video that's critical of a game they love and have intense nostalgia for when their memories are probably a bit more rosy than they'd like to admit. So they see my struggles, especially with TDP and they look at it with decades of acquired knowledge and replays, and they come and downvote this video. It's a vicious nostalgia.
@@NthReview Oh, come on, is it so hard to grasp that there are people who simply prefer the first game? Sorry, but the "it's old, therefor your opinion is null and void because NOSTALGIA" triggers me hard! I played Thief 1 and 2 over the past two years and really liked them, especially the first one! I did shortly play T1 back in the days when it was released, but as the kid I was then I never made it past the zombies in the second mission, so pretty much all the missions were new to me... People have different tastes, and that is fine so I'm not going to elaborate where I disagree with you, but it simply (for the most part) has nothing to do with nostalgia.
@@tommat86 I get that people like the first game, but it doesn’t render my criticisms of it invalid
Hey, I like your essay of the thief-games. It is wondeful done and we can really see your passion. So thanks for that. But I also have to say, that some topics you criticize are for me personally the basics of the thief games. So for me some of your points are a little bit like playing a racing game and criticizing that you have to be fast in the game. But nevertheless I totally respect your point of view and I enjoyed this video a lot. I enjoy all your other videos right now as well and would like to encourage you to carry on. To make this happen, now you have one patreon more. So please carry on with your great work. At the end I have to mention, what everyone in my country mentions after speaking/writing in english: sorry for my bad english ;-) Take care dude!
Cheers!
This is some top-quality stuff you've delivered! I first discovered the series with an Official Xbox Magazine demo disc of Deadly Shadows in 2004 and have loved this series and the larger stealth genre ever since.
Glad you enjoyed! I got Deadly Shadows for my 20th birthday, the day I drove to work in a torrential rain storm and my car's alternator died, so a friend of mine and I were pushing it in ankle-deep water. Memories...
This took me three days to watch but I am happy I watched it all. The most in-depth review of any series!
Thank you!
Never played any thieves games. I think I might change this after fully watching the video so hopefully next year
Cheers! They're cheap and easy to get!
at 3:14:28 when you deactivate the drill after activating it, you'll find a small gem on the ground near the tip of the drill, so it's not just a gimmic but a small little reward for poking buttons ;)
There's also a note nearby that a mechanist wrote that mentions how he discovered this but wishes to keep it to himself for his own benefit, hinting that the player too can take advantage of this
On the Dark engines lighting system, it seems to be able to handle dynamic lighting as holding a notched fire arrow lights up the space around the player, like wise shooting it lights the area around it as it travels
Had a wonderful time watching this. As someone played Thief 2014 first and the trilogy later, I'm sympathetic towards all of the 2014 slander, but also so very tired of it. I'm glad you gave it an unbiased look with different pros and cons. Great content 10/10
Glad you enjoyed it!
Personally disagree with numerous opinions in this video (mainly stuff pertaining to TDP), but even still, your respect and appreciation of these games is abundantly clear. Terrific video sir. Have a sub.
Thank you! Hope you enjoy the rest!
Sabotage at Soulforge ROCKED.
Overlook Manse is amazing! Clams 'n' Noodles baby
Soulforge!? Yuck!
@@NthReview The weird thing is, I pretty much agree with almost all of your criticisms about the level! I still love it overall though. It's a bit better than swapping out the Eye in Dark Project.
Though I do agree on many points on Thief issues, there is one single BUT that stopped me from watching the material further from the end of Thief 1 deep dive and further. Absolute majority of issues the author got himself into *were on him.* Especially with Ramirez situation, which was hilarious. The entire point of the game is to stay out of sight and make as low of a noise as possible - even in zombie missions. Never using moss arrows and different noisemakers and abusing combat is the cause of most issues the author got into. Despite the appearance, all the enemies DO have all the states of usual guards, and you need to use those to your advantage. Otherwise the game inevitably mutates into a clusterfuck of piles of corpses, some of which are key to the mission in hand. Skipping the Haunted Cathedral is a crime against gaming in of itself.
I admit to a chunk of that being on my part in the aside, but there is a ton of obtuse and clunky gameplay in that first game that is really inexcusable. That said, you really should watch the rest of the video because subsequent games fix the issues I had with the first game and highlight why that game’s problems are uniquely that game’s and why I loved the subsequent games so much more. Stick with it.
As a visually impaired person, Thief I and II are some of the few games I can actually beat (at least on easy with the gamma turned up). The combination of the rich colors, the reliance on sound, and the zoom-in when you aim make the game playable for me. I grew up with games and it’s so great to still be able to play a few.
Man, the first two games and parts of the third are so goddamn good, aren't they? Really aged fantastically. Makes me so damn happy to hear people discuss and describe their thoughts on them.
Thief 1 was the first game I ever had to drop as a kid because the dense atmosphere in the Bonehoard was just too scary for me, but even still, it stayed in my head for years afterwards. Once I actually did manage to play it all the way through, I was hooked. I must've played and replayed the first two a dozen times or so over the years.
Great stuff, they just don't make 'em like they used to.
3:04:55 you can actually hear the conversation at normal volume if you face the side of your head towards the door and then lean into it with the Q or E key. Pretty cool.
I think the problem is that Thief is all about the details. Especially on higher difficulty, you have to investigate each and every nook and cranny in the level. Things like the Hand of Glory are obtuse by choice (we can argue if it's a good choice or not ;-) ), as those side objectives are either for people who already know the mission and want an additional challenge or are for players that would investigate everything. It's really not surprising that you struggled with the higher difficulties (and other aspects of the game) as they really require patience and attention.
They do require patience and attention, which is fine, but it’s clear from the sequels that, especially with TDP, this was a league too far and they dialed back the obtuseness of it all.
I don't know man. All the prisoners names are in the ledgers, cell number and all. Felt straight forward to me at 13 years of age, and not being a native english speaker. Sure it requires you to think for yourself and pay attention I'll give you that.
- You mocked the people who criticized Thief 4 for the lack of a jump feature (one of many, many things that are wrong with this game) and made a fool of yourself in the process. You think that being able to jump is useless. This is proof that you didn’t understand anything about this franchise, the mechanics, you didn’t experiment with anything, otherwise you would realize how important such a feature is. Jumping to attract attention, to “bunny hop” in Thief 1 which allows you to gain more speed so you can jump farther, to make stacks of crates and jump on them or each individually in order to reach higher places (you kinda do this often in the first 2 games either to skip a portion of the level or to access a different entry point or to get some loot or to scout the surrounding area from a vantage point or to shoot a rope arrow someplace else in order to reach another spot etc.), to mantle. To say that this jump feature that’s missing “addresses” 95% of the complaints against Thief 4 shows that you understand nothing about this IP and that you’re a liar. You minimize to the extreme this mechanical lack and lead your audience to believe that it’s an insignificant aspect of the game. If you didn’t understand something, then it’s bad or useless. Right?
- Of course you defended the rope arrow limitation to predefined spots. Again, if you experimented, played around a bit in Thief 1 and 2 you would have realized how precious these tools are. Outside of rope, moss and water arrows you don’t need anything else.
- You barely touched on the mechanics and features of each game.
- You didn’t even mention the revolutionary sound propagation system that’s been unmatched since, let alone how it works and how it’s almost a tool in the player’s arsenal and the information it gives you. Not to mention the different surfaces and everything.
- You can lean forward by the way, as well as sideways.
- The levels that have supernatural elements can be ghosted, btw.
- Also, most of the areas don’t have dozens or hundreds of NPCs because all missions take place during the evening or night.
- Fire and gas arrows travel in a straight line in Thief 1 and 2. It’s not a bug, so Thief 3 didn’t correct anything.
- There were throwable items you could have used for distractions in all 3 Thief games, so Thief 4 didn’t bring anything new in that area. The removal of noisemaker arrows in that title was a mistake, but then again the game itself was a mistake.
- The gloves in Thief 3 are called climbing gloves not gripping gloves.
- About the door opening: that’s why the highlight range for interaction is higher, so you don’t have to hug a door when you open it. But on the other hand sometimes when you’re in a tense situation and this happens it is pretty frustrating.
- Deus Ex and Thief are different games. One’s a hybrid that excels at nothing (is wide but not deep) and the other is a game focused on stealthy playstyle and in consequence is deeper on that front. Stealth games usually allow for acrobatics, high mobility, variety and usage of tools, manipulation of the environment, disguises in some cases, level design, puzzle solving, planning etc. These are the varying “playstyles” in a stealth game.
- You can cut some wall drapes with your sword. You could do it since the Cragscleft prison as some loot was behind some of them. You didn’t need the game to tell you that just experiment, try stuff out with what you have. You can also blow open doors with fire arrows or hit them with the sword 3 or 4 times. You can also lock and relock doors, allowing you to trap enemies inside various places and remove them as threats.
- You can retrieve the sword by shooting a rope arrow or mantling on the side or just jumping from the 3rd floor on the top ring and leaning forward. No hack or cheat required.
- “Thief 3 is the best Thief game”, in YOUR opinion. Don’t present it as fact.
- Thief 4 removed swimming, jumping and mantling, reduced rope arrows to predetermined spots. It doesn’t have more traversal options, it has less.
- Very arrogant of you to claim that longtime fans are pissed at the fourth game because they didn’t play it or because the game is very different. We all played it, unfortunately. The game is amazingly reductive in mechanics and features and the designers didn’t understand anything about the series, not to mention the development hell it went through. The story was a mess, the lore was a mess, the gameplay was definitely fitting and appropriate for today’s audience. 4 or so different types of enemies, linear level design, mobility reduced, various mechanics removed, loading screens all over the place (even if they’re masked), Dishonored rip off with the gloom and everything, no sound propagation system like in the first 2 games, body awareness which is another issue (can and has caused falling off edges, makes animations longer than necessary, there’s a noticeable lag between looking around and moving in one direction after deciding on it, seeing Garett’s hands on the screen all the time (why?)) boss fights (in a stealth game?), a DLC bank level which is a joke and pales in comparison to the actual bank in Thief 2 and on and on. I’m sure you know by now all the criticisms towards this game and it’s pointless to repeat them here or go into detail on them. It’s been done to death in these last 7 years on various forums and on UA-cam). Basically, the only thing that connects Thief 4 to this series is the name.
- You speed ran through the games (why, when this genre requires patience?), you didn’t enjoy them (you didn’t have to say it, it was obvious) nor understand them, only to badmouth them in the end. Not all, only the first two. The best ones. I don’t go around making videos of me playing and then reviewing games and genres that I’m not familiar with or don’t enjoy, let alone make statements about which one is the best, considering I wouldn’t know much about them.
- You’ve shown footage of bugs, occasional glitches, poor play and killing everything in sight, completely misunderstanding the entirety of the series or the genre.
- A friendly advice: stay away from stealth games because you fail to understand them and in consequence to portray their pros and cons correctly, especially since you don’t like them. Stick to reviewing franchises and IPs that you actually enjoy.
- On a scale of 1 to 10, I give this video a 2: 1 for the time and effort and 1 for the conclusion in which you encouraged people to play through all the games in the order of release, this being the only good thing you said.
I didn't mock people who criticized the 2014 reboot for lack of a jump feature, nor did I do many of the other things you claim I did.
I agree with some points. It is true that the claim that people did not like Thief 4 because they either didn't play it or just because it is different is an ignorant assumption (around 4:13:00). Yes, people do not like it AND it is different, but people don't like it for the fact that it is different alone. People do not like it because it cuts back on movement options (jumping, swimming are good examples) and the lore (see below). The rope arrow limitation of Thief 4 is rather dumb, and while the reviewer was complaining about the retracting bridge in the Hammerite Temple, I couldn't help but think of the fact that this exact place has a wooden ceiling to prevent just this dilemma.
Actually, the player can use the mechanic for slicing through banners with his sword in Bafford's manor already where it will reveal on the upper floor of one side of the garden a secret path to the throne room.
What confuses me in this review is that there are so many instances where the player was just standing and receiving the enemies' blows. If you have ever played an elderscrolls game or much of any other game for that matter, it is only natural to recede, load up your shot/blow and then strike, rinse and repeat.
And the claim that the story of Thief 4 is one of the stronger elements really has no ground when compared to the original trilogy. Yes, especially in Thief 2 some missions are just there to confirm stuff that the player has figured out already, but the unique faction design with strong christian/freemason, but also greek mythology undertones along with character design really shines compared to Thief 4s utterly unsympathetic Erin and the cliché rich-vs-poor story. Compared to murderous Erin, the sometimes ignorant Garrett really isn't that much of a bad character - he just has a very liberal attitude insofar as that he has an inherent distrust towards groups, clubs and associations.
But I will admit that I learned some things here and there about changes between the games from this review. However, I think the enjoyment would have been far greater if the reviewer had not started Cragscleft at Expert difficulty on the first playthrough - it has been argued in some reviews that the second level really isnt all that easy and it comes off as rather naive to play the first playthrough on the highest difficulty setting. "Assassins" I have actually found to be one of the easier levels, and the reviewer mentioned how he piled up every guard in one spot - but if he had been thorough, he would have seen that Ramirez' character model, while in similar colours, clearly stands out from the rest.
While I will agree that The Dark Project/Gold clearly needs some kind of playthrough/tips to be enjoyable for the first runthrough, the above example and other instances (difficulty level, lack of rope arrow usage) really seem like the reviewer's fault - which is acceptable, but do not justify criticizing the game for. Also, I don't understand the reviewer's problems with security cameras - they add another obstacle that can either be shutoff if there is a switch or can be destroyed with fire arrows, or could be circumvented altogether in some instances, or the player can sneak right beneath them (where they have a blind spot and will not find the player if not alerted already) - this is another example of different approaches, which are far more nuanced than in other titles.
Hello, stranger, I just wanted to thank you for all these arguments and complaints. Better than I can write myself, great appreciation.
Yo! I'm the dude on reddit from yesterday praising your commitment to a 5 hour long video. Finally sitting down to watch this while I work from home. Really enjoying your style here.
16:04 made me laugh way too hard. "(robots")
Love it dude and will be keeping an eye on your stuff! Good luck to ya
Glad you're enjoying it! There's plenty other stuff in there, too. Thank you and enjoy!
@@NthReview i loked the robots joke too
I can say that i've played all Thief games and while Thief 2 is for many the best game of the franchise, for me Deadly Shadows has always been the Crown Jewel.
- Thief 1 is still great - not too hard, i like the story and gameplay mechanics. Oh, and it has Victoria 😀
- Thief 2 has an even much denser atmosphere and more intense gameplay. Yet i think the difficulty spike in the later laves was a bit too steep (and yes, i've tried to "'Git Gud"... 😕)
- Thief 3 was a huge improvement in graphics and gameplay mechanics compared to the first two installments. It sure had it's flaws and bugs but was the first time i felt the world felt truly 'alive'
The story was not as intense as in T: TMA but okay. Although i didn't like having the focus on Garrett and him being the saviour in the end. And the devs reduced the freedom of the player a bit:
i remember in Thief 1 shooting rope arrows here and there to create seemingly impossible ways. In Thief 3 the levels and hub was a bit more constrained.
- Thief 4 was... i don't know. I just didn't like it. The story and resolution in the end. The levels / maps. The narrative. Some gameplay mechanics.
It's one of the games i regret buying and will never play again.
The tapestry slashing actually makes its first appearance in the first mission (Lord Baffords Manor) when you follow a secret passage way to the throne room area blocked by a hanging tapestry. But other then those two instances, you are right that they don’t appear again in the first game like that
You can put zombies down in all 3 Thief games, and if you don't touch them they don't get up
The same applies to the enemies in Shalebridge Cradle
I'm so happy to have discovered this video. So comprehensive! Subscribed.
You know what?
I've only ever played the demo of 2014. You've convinced me to give it another shake.
I would recommend it! It's not the greatest, but it's hardly trash by leagues. Fans were very harsh
@@NthReview I enjoyed the demo, though I got the same impression you seem to about how sometimes the game holds your hand a little much. It is gorgeous though, the city during a rainstorm was spine tingling.
ah yes my favorite type of UA-cam video about thief. I couldn't be happier right now
Yay!
Got me fired up to dig out my games and start playing again! Thanks! BTW, ambitious project you did there. Congrats.
Thank you!
02:27:08 I don't think it's a Gold addition. You can slash the banners in all levels, and they can sometimes hide a secret behind them. There is one banner in the Lord Bafford's Manor that hides a shortcut to the room with the scepter. There is one in the later stages of the prison level as well, in the offices that reveals that one of the high-ranking builders has a drinking problem.
Fun, thorough review. I’m amazed how much of this I watched, speaks to your talent. I really enjoyed the subtle background audio of guards & Garrett screaming
Thanks!
The Asylum in (2014) scared the hell out of me.
Every time I peered into a key whole I expected a jump scare. By the time I got to the Asylum I let my guard down, and that's when they got me with the jump scare. I know that jump scares are cheap but that one in particular was very clever.
Leading up to the Asylum I felt like a Master Thief, ever in control of myself and the environment around me. In the Asylum I felt like a terrified little mouse forced to hide from ghosts and monsters.
My memories of the game my not be totally accurate because it's been a while since I've played it, but I remember it being truly terrifying.
Still within the first 2 hours of the video, and I can already see I'm going to disagree with a lot of what you say. Personally, I fell in love with The Dark Project as soon as I got into the third mission, and ever since then, I've considered it the best stealth game ever. With its horror elements, unique ambience and aesthetic and crazy mission design, it's unmatched by the rest of the series (though I've yet to play 2014). This is coming from someone who's only fully played it twice, by the way.
I also need to say (as many others have commented below, I'm sure) that the way you play the games (especially TDP) is INFURIATING. Definitely recommend you replay the first two games on Expert on a later date, focusing more on stealth. Savescumming isn't scumming at all, in these games. Just go for it.
All that being said, let me go back to the video. This content is high effort dude, very impressive.
There's definitely some agree-to-disagree here, but if the stealth in TDP worked better, if I COULD effectively hide in so many spots, if the game WASN'T so obtuse with its objectives and directives, it would be a better game. And I know this because they fixed this with the every game that followed and that's why I like them better. *shrug*
@@NthReview I can see your points, I guess. It's not like I *wasn't* frustrated when I first played TDP, I remember it being very confusing a lot of the time, and I definitely used guides. The frustration felt like part of the experience to me, though, like you're supposed to play it a 2nd time when you know your way around... which is why I personally believe your evaluation of TDP might be elevated on a replay.
Well, opinions are opinions, regardless.
@@edgytheedgehog8618 and i don’t disagree that it’s a better game on a second play through when you’ve already done all the hardest work to figure it out, but I shouldn’t have to play a game over and over until I like it. TDP was so repulsive to play at times that I almost gave up reviewing it. The most severe replies I get here all seem to overwhelmingly be by the apologists, which I mention in this review, who have gotten so used to the game and it’s quirks that they do have solutions to every problem and exact ways to play it right and any flaws they may have had are lost to time. Scouring a level for hours to find an unmarked body is suuuuuper shitty, but if you know exactly who it is and how the mechanics work and can accomplish the task immediately, obviously it isn’t anymore. I just didn’t want to sugarcoat my experience just to appease some hardcore fans. I acknowledge I get some things objectively wrong, like the rope arrows or whatever, but that’s missing the point because those are my nitpicks that stand beside my huge problems with at least that first game.
Cheers!
Are you shitting me?! sabotage at soulforge was a master piece. It put all you skills that you learned throughout the game to the text in a massive complex level. most game devs of today put as much effort in a single game!
It was a miserable slog unworthy of the Thief name! (Throws chair)
Only watched the first hour so far. This is one to watch in parts. But man, I love all the development trivia and the bits about the series' influence on later games and studios. It's really interesting.
Glad you're enjoying it!
Finished it. I'm glad to see my vague memories of liking Deadly Shadows the best, were somewhat legitimate. Though man, Thief Deadly Shadows and Deus Ex Invisible War suffered from some really poor interface design and awkward feeling gameplay. Looking at it as a Splinter Cell competitor makes a lot of sense, but third person movement was clearly not their specialty.
And you convinced me to give the 2014 game a chance. It's pretty clear they changed direction multiple times during that game's development. It sounds like it was designed as a more direct sequel at some point, and then they decided to make the story connections more vague?
Nice work. The memories came flooding in going when you started showing gameplay! I was totally satisfied with the game and Im totally ready for another thief 2 playthrough!
i am completely baffled by the fact you dont have 6 digit subscribers, your production and writing is damn good.
all the best lad
Thank you sir! Every last bit helps!
Dear lord, the original 2 games were about my favourite ever video games, I struggle to understand how the series latterly went so far off course…
My review of this review: Your Issyt, level navigation and door opening woes are a skill issue. Being able to read the notes and pay attention to the world are a requirement in the two first thief games. Read the manual, read the papyruses in the world. Not enough blasting on Thief 2014 and Deadly Shadows. Thief without jumping is a crime against player freedom and intelligence. Thief Gold is better than The Metal Age. 2 hours per mission on a first playthrough is fine. If you don't understand why the assasins were sent after you in thief gold, you must have gone outside the room when the briefing was playing or something. They literally explain it.
2:23:49 that was NOT Ramirez.
By the way they made 52 card pickup in a custom misison, Making a Profit
Deadly Shadows was the best one. Booyah.
Oh, and: To destroy the glyph key seal in Thief 3 (that you have found in Orland's bedroom), I always bring it down to the dining room and toss it into the fireplace - saves you a fire arrow.
I guess that's one way to do it, too!
I hated 2014 because they really destroyed the lore of the first three (for me). I don't know how or why but I fell in love with the Hammers and the Pagan factions and was so SO sad when they just tossed it out the window. I liked the zombies. Hated killing them, but liked how weird it was that they were there, in a stealth game. Lots of nods to the first games, but it felt insulting to have the Thief name slapped onto it. Also I loathed the city, finding those tiny narrow loading screen passages made me want to scream, it was a maze and all the gritty dark everything just looked identical to me.
Dishonored is the spiritual successor to the games for me, but I think your video convinced me to finally purchase that mouse stealth game I've had on my steam wishlist forever.
Amazing video. I can't believe I watched five hours of this. I can't believe how many hours you put into this.
Thank you so much! Glad you 2atched and enjoyed the entire thing lol
This is remarkable work! Excellent long form analysis, thank you.
You're welcome!
the 5+ hours flew by! haha glad to hear more love for deadly shadows; its a very underrated game. as for 2014, I wonder why you didn't mention the sound issues at all. it is a very glaring issue, and seems to be an injustice toward the series. I feel the overall review was fair, and the title comparisons through it all, even while the focus is on a specific one, really engaged me more. also the lore bits are basically dopamine lolz. again, thanks for the efforts of you, and your crew. looking forward to more!
Thanks! I have 13 other reviews after that, lol
The sound mixing in Thief 2014 is a complete travesty.
Nice video.
One of the only things, I‘m astounded you didn‘t mention was the directional sound. I never played Thief 2014, but from what I‘ve heard it‘s not the Jump, maybe a little the long animations, but rather the lesser directional sound of Thief 2014 that bothered so many. I haven‘t yet played the game, and maybe should, but I first want to finish the trilogy, so take what I said with a grain of salt.
There are others that have mentioned this and I wasn't able to find any information about it because by 2014, so much of the sound/AI/etc. could be handled by middleware. People had plenty of complaints about the game, but I don't think it was any one thing that did it.
thief 2014 had broken sound unfortunately.
"It's gorgerous despite being six year's old" Oh man, I feel so fucking old.
And this review is almost two years old…
Fuck yeah, I'm glad someone else loved 'Deadly Shadows'; it makes me so sad when other fans defame it.
There are a ton of tricks you don't know about. Like flashbombs, use the drop button while you're running. They won't blind you. You missed the lean and jack. When an enemy is looking for you, you can lean forward and blackjack them from the front. The rope arrows and vine arrows are incredibly useful you just haven't played enough to appreciate them. 4 is terrible one of the few games I played over halfway through and quit on. It's just too linear, it's really not a Thief game.
Good tips! I like when Thief 2014 goes open city because the previous games don’t do it/don’t do it great
after they weren't in danger of bankruptcy Looking Glass, Eidos, and Irrational should have merged back together
One of the best games ever created was The Dark Age. Check out The Dark Mod for Doom 3 sometime.
I took a glance at several mods, there are quite a few. Even back to Unreal Tournament remakes, it's nuts.
Good suggestion!
A little addition: you don't need Doom 3 to run the Dark Mod.
what is "The Dark Age". found dark mod no problem (thanks!), however not sure of the other game mentioned.
@@nintom i think its a mod story if thief
Outstanding video, I can't imagine how much work it took, and with a full time job on top of that! I can't wait to see more longform critiques from you
Thank you! If you haven't already, check out the other reviews, I think you'll like them!
@@NthReview Been a longish time viewer, actually. I found your channel when YT recommended me your Deus Ex critique. Actually, after watching that, you inspired me to do my own critique of the series, but I gave up after I saw how hard Deus Ex is to record lmao
@@thesummerofmark What issues are you having? After getting the game patched up, I used the Nvidia's ShadowPlay to capture the footage.
@@NthReview I record/play games on a laptop, and the "record desktop" Shadowplay feature or whatever people use for old games is not available on laptops. And the footage is super laggy/blurred if I record with OBS
@@thesummerofmark Huh, interesting. I used to use the Xbox game bar that comes with Windows 10 (Windows Key + X) but the audio would start to get weird from time\ to time. You notice this in the Alan Wake review.
late to the party BUT- i do kinda love the dark project's approach to maps. like, have you ever tried to draw a map of a place you've (best case) been to once or (worst case) your drunk cousin has been to once, a while back? i fully acknowledge that it's not everyone's cup of tea but i do like the (admittedly silly) realism there.
really enjoying your videos!
Thank you!
Glad you plugged this video in your system shock retrospective. 3 hours in and enjoying it immensely.
Glad to hear it!
You mentioned Garrett's lack of supernatural ability, isn't his ability to hide in plain sight a borderline supernatural ability? The first Keeper Garrett pickpockets makes a point of saying that seeing a Keeper at all is not easy.
Considering how often I was found even while hiding, I’m not sure
@@NthReview I've got memories of hiding a metre in front of a non-alert guard with the light crystal dark.
It has been a long while since I played the games though so maybe I'm misremembering.
@@Malaclypse_the_Third civie 11 made some videos on the game and a few other peolle including tomato gaming trash. You are remmebering correct
Haven't watched anything yet but I'm downloading this to fall asleep to for the next 2 months as I make my way through it. Enjoy like 40 views man :)
this was a fantastic video. I too think Deadly Shadows is super underrated. I love that game so much
It really is! Thank you!
In Thief Deadly Shadows, the Victrola with Karras' voice you seek is in the main hall ("Tesero Hall"), where the big statue with the amulet around its neck is situated at.
Also: I don't like the time limit of the electrical traps in the museum, so I use a water arrow on the insulators, which turns off the electricity for 10 seconds or so, and grab the stuff I need.
You can use oil flasks to make Gamall fall down slopes. You then can take a good look at her, because she's not getting up again; just laying on the ground.
Your comments and insight are amazing. Cheers!
Regarding Thief: Deadly Shadows "It sinks in, much like with Invisible War, that the developers had to make these changes to survive." The changes they made to Thief and Deus Ex killed the studio and put them out of business. Regardless, I do like Invisible War and Deadly Shadows. They're good games. Just not as good as what came before.
For Deus Ex, the changes to Invisible War from the first game were definitely brutal. But for Thief, there are definitely ways they improved and even made it more marketable, because unlike Deus Ex, those first two Thief games didn't sell well.
My first thief game was deadly shadows
I love the narration of that game
"this is a very serious review."
One hour, thirty six minutes later.
"HYPNOWAVES."
That's right, buddy. I said hypno waaaavvvveeesss
Yeah that was a weird Joseph Anderson video
Definitely. I mean, obviously, he's entitled to his opinion... it's just a really weird one.
Stealth is still a thing
Gonna end playing thief 2014 someday because of you now after messing around with the stand alone Dark Mod Fantastic work
Thanks!
I finished this video, no skips. One of the best video i’ve seen, thank you.
You're very welcome!
I never get tired of video's about the Thief games :D
4:00 In the spirit of Monty Python and the Holy Grail:
"Get on with it!"
"Thief 4 fan plays older games, seethes in bewilderment at having to read".
I actually didn't play the Thief remake until after I had beaten all of the previous games.
@@NthReview It's just a shorthand expression for the type of game you gravitate towards. We don't have to be literal about everything.
@@MAJ0R_TOM I guess, but it also implied that I was a fan of that game first and then just used modern standards/quality of life improvements over the past 22 years to rag on the older games when I spent plenty of time ragging on those games on their own merits and problems. So, eh.
@@NthReview *Some of their own merits and problems. Your biggest issues with the first 2 games are not the fault of their design, they simply aren't for you, while Thief 4 is more what you're looking for. But you tried to make your minor frustrations out to be objective faults of the deliberate design of those games, especially Thief 1.
The first game. I rather enjoyed The Metal Age despite its rushed ending.
That Picture Describing Joe Biden as a Jolly gift to the year didnt age well 🤣🤣🤣
lol, like that other guy inspiring an insurrection and getting indicted on state and federal charges and facing death in prison? lol omg.
Uh Oh lefty alert! That says it all.... In your low IQ brain it Automatically means I support Trump when Im critical of Biden..... Nice job with the self Own!@@NthReview
"Horror games aren't scary like horror movies, unless they contain permadeath."
Because we all know that the scariest part of going to the movies is the non-zero chance that the movie just straight up murders us.
Now I’m not saying I’ve been avoiding the movie theater for a reason…
@@NthReview I mean, I should have timestamped that, because it's clear in context that I'm not actually quoting you, but paraphrasing some other critic that you were quoting.
It's a long video, I'm honestly surprised I made it 50 minutes in before compulsively commenting on things, but when it's this long I really need to indicate with a reference what the hell I'm actually responding to.
The way you approach games in general seems to put you at odds with the intentional design elements of the Thief games from LG. It was/is meant to be played with attention to detail. The sprawling levels and sparse maps (which you can write notes on in game, by the way) are very intentional. Of course the illegally acquired map is incomplete. Of course Garret (and the player) is going to get lost in a place they've never been. Why ever would an estate or a factory/prison/zombie filled tomb be linear? To help the player, there are tons of hints & environmental storytelling at play: notes, plaques with descriptions, directions & room purposes, NPC dialog, there are numbers for the cellblocks on the walls, etc. Things are mostly in the spot you'd logically think they'd be; even Ramirez was in his dedicated room the entire time.
Resorting to Googling instead of using your wits works against you as well, giving you sketchy info and sending you on goose chases.
I didn't see you have your compass out to help with direction a single time. Garret automatically has a compass in almost every single mission in every game, for good reason.
Furthermore, as others have pointed out in previous comments, you misunderstand, miss or are flat out incorrect about many mechanics. Like how you can easily catch up to running NPCs if you'd just sheathe your weapon for faster movement speed and strafe a bit. Something like that shouldn't need explanation, you should honestly "feel" it after literal hours of running around. Which you did.
Certain games aren't for everyone, that's totally fine, but it's not fair to blame something as a mechanical or design failure when it's your own obtuse approach that is holding you back.
That all being said, I did enjoy the video. Different perspectives are always interesting.
It's a valid perspective to be like "Oh, you just need to scan every pixel for every detail and be able to play everything and think really far outside the box to solve very simple things to progress the game" and I get that's definitely the perspective of hardcore fans who have spent decades memorizing all that detail, but as I've said in other replies, it's clear that they were very aware of their obtuse and under-designed missions and mission objectives in that first game in particular because they immediately fixed those problems with the sequel.
So, I get people can fetishize "I adapted to the bad parts of the first game's design and that makes me superior to this guy doing a video on UA-cam talking a while about this thing I understand very deeply" and I don't have any control over it, but also, it's a pretty silly and something I address very early on in this review because I knew that's how people felt at the time.
*shrug* Glad you enjoyed!
@@NthReview You're missing the point of what I wrote.
You aren't meant to pixel hunt in Thief (it wouldn't even be that hard if that were the case, there are 16 pixels on the screen at any given time), you're meant to go in with the mindset of Garret.
I'm not an expert at this game by any means, and nowhere did I say I was superior. You're being very disingenuous here.
Let me put it this way: the game gives you a compass for every level of every game, and I didn't see you utilize it a single time while trying to get your bearings in different levels.
Don't blame the game for your unwillingness to play by its rules.
No, i understood the point of the compass, which is why I remarked about it and failed to see much of its usefulness in a virtual 3D space.
I’m not trying to be a jerk here, I appreciate your replies, but my point stands: Looking Glass thought this was undercooked and obtuse mission design and immediately fixed it as soon as they had a chance. I’m sure it was their intent going in in 1997 to be like “we’re going to give you these 3-dimensional tomb levels that are littered with traps and have few orienting features and just give the players a compass or a crudely drawn map to navigate it.” And, yknow, props to them, but I don’t think that invalidates any criticism of them going that way
@@NthReview The fact that you are unable to see the usefulness of the compass is just what I'm talking about. The compass is a fundamental tool to be used to get your bearings and make sense of the intentionally sparse maps. You just don't use it. If an objective is in the west wing, for example, how do you know you're going west? It speaks volumes about your fundamental approach to the game.
I don't like FPS games, I'm not good at them, and I don't get enjoyment from them. I don't then go and blame the spray pattern of my gun for my inability to get kills when I'm not willing to learn it.
The game was designed with the thought that the player would use the tools available to them. You intentionally ignore mechanics and then blame the game. It's fair to say that you don't enjoy it for whatever reason, that's prettymuch the definition of criticism. However, to claim that your issues with navigation as a whole are due to flawed design while you ignore the tools available to you? That's just plain disingenuous. That's not fair criticism.
You keep mentioning that they "fixed it". Looking Glass basically just removed the "supernatural levels". People complained that there wasn't enough typical thievery in Thief. I don't know where you're getting the notion that the game was changed out of a necessity to make the game less confusing.