Guy talks About Starship Troopers for 25 minutes NOt clickbait
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- Опубліковано 17 чер 2024
- Starship Troopers is the 1997 action movie that inspired Helldivers 2. Directed by notorious Dutch weirdo Paul Verhoeven, Starship Troopers was widely reviled when it came out. Some people just plain didn't like the movie. But others, including people who should've known better, totally missed the point. Because Starship Troopers is satire. Helldivers 2 borrows the tone and premise of Starship Troopers, poking fun at the American military industrial complex. Looking back at how the film was received - and how many people just Didn't Get It - can help us understand Helldivers 2 now. Polygon's Patrick Gill explains the whole dang thing.
0:00 What's Starship Troopers?
1:51 Critical response to Starship Troopers
3:11 What is fascism?
4:47 Why didn't people "get" Starship Troopers?
5:43 Part 1: the Book
8:47 Part 2: Missing the joke
13:22 Part 3: Missing the context
18:33 Part 4: The satire isn't perfect
22:11 Part 5: Bad guys love fascism
24:09 Why do we care?
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#helldivers2 #gaming - Ігри
I had the weirdly backwards experience of reading Starship Troopers and slowly realizing that it WASN'T a satire.
Yeah, same. I came into it from some of Heinlein's other books, in which his politics come across effectively as the typical American libertarian. It definitely seemed contradictory to witness him deepthroating the boot in Starship Troopers.
Later life experience led me to realize that his fascistic tendencies are actually very much in line with American libertarianism.
I stopped half way for the same reason. I remember in the beginning there being a line about someone not knowing or caring whether they killed a civilian or a combatant. “Nobody could want this future,” I thought
@@paige_404 american libertarianism's issue with boolicking is not the bootlicking its the boots being licked being into the wrong fetishes.
I think the most fascinating thing about Starship Troopers is that, really, Heinlein made some very astute observations about the nature of morality and geopolitics.
He just also drew some WILD conclusions from those observations that I don't agree with
I really enjoyed it. I didn't get why it was fixated on violence and the military and punishment but I was in my "capitalism isn't bad it just needs tuning up and maybe a billionaire ban" phase so I didn't see it was fascistic. I then saw the movie. The movie feels... a lot clearer on what's going on. I had been thinking for a long time about ways to do things like, this is going to sound bad, eugenics, without hurting people or enabling monsters to use whatever system I imagined to enact genocide, and I had been failing. Not long after I went far more leftist. This book is about the ideal circumstances for fascism: The pet theories of monsters happening to be true, competent leaders, and most importantly, a cartoon evil that is obviously not human. If the enemy had been human, or even had a decent intelligence operation, the fascists in power would destroy civil liberties to find impure traitors. Hell, the opening chapter is the fascists punishing humanoid aliens for being slightly uncharitable to humans. If any humans liked any of them, and would be oppressed. Likely, that was happening in the background. The only planets visited in non-combat means are earth, the moon i think, and that sanctuary place. I am led to believe I should have seen the movie first.
Veerhoven: "War makes fascists of us all. It's bad."
Movie Critics: "But not when America does it....right? Right, Paul? Paul? Why aren't you saying anything, Paul? America's wars are good, right, Paul? Paul? Hey, Paul!"
Paul: stares directly into the camera
America hasn't fought a good war for over two hundred years, if it ever has.
+
Cut to that scene from american psycho where patrick bateman kills paul allen.
It's a good thing that America has ABSOLUTELY NO history of fascism in the past or in the present, otherwise the movie and game would be a pretty damning critique of American society and politics.
I’d watch Pat Gil talk about anything for 25 minutes, clickbait not required
I'm watching Pat do his part
Honestly didn't even read the title or anything, I just saw Pat's face and clicked immediately
I'll never tire of Polygon video content. By far some of the most interesting and disparate pieces of content out there.
Bangers as always
I'm a simple man. I see Pat, I click.
@@bretscofield Polygontent, if you will.
"If you're here, you're freaks"
so true bestie
> be me, watching this video
> get to that exact line
> smile
> click "like" button
> go to comments to summarize my experience
> see YOUR comment
> smile
> type THIS comment instead
@@scezumin Oh, wow. We ARE freaks!
hehe
@@bearded_boar9498 we are freaks... we are freaks... We are freaks! WE ARE FREAKS!!
"The historical occurrences of defensive actions or counterstrikes being painted as instigations and justifications for full-scale invasion and war" WOW HOW RELEVANT
hmm wonder where i've heard about that recently
@@enderesting hmmmm, taking singular events out of context and using them as justification for violence without considering what came before it, where have we heard that recently?
How dare that smaller nation defend itself!
@@oscaranderson5719 watch out, the UN doesn't like it when you call that group of people a nation!
@@oscaranderson5719 yea, the small nation of Russia defending itself by "liberating" Ukrain from drug addicted Nazis...
I'm doing my part
I'm doing my part!
I'm doing my part
I'm doing my part!
Im doing my part 👍
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Let us also remember that Clancy Brown is in this movie so you get not only Hank from Breaking Bad but ALSO Mr. Krabs yelling Militaristic propaganda at you.
And Captain Hadley from Shawshank Redemption
Also Sam Fisher from Splinter Cell
"Spongeboy, me bob, I'm going to send a battalion of poorly trained child soldiers to the front lines and encourage them to commit war crimes, agagagagag"
And the Toymaker
"America has a tendency to use historic events as justification without taking into account anything that happened before." Been thinking about this quote all afternoon. It hits hard these days.
Saying "these days" is the same kind of ahistoricism that this quote is criticising. The point isn't that it's new but a long lived trend.
Do you know the party game 'werewolf'/'mafia'? The tactic works frighteningly well if you are a baddie in those games. Having done it myself in those games, to my friends, really made that point hit home.
@@EchodonutIf you like social deduction game, you should look at Blood on the Clocktower. In-person Video from NoRollsBarred is a great entry point.
And the guy who talks about taking a part of history doesn't know that we are slaves to Islam and religion right now, and that The Shah (Shah is king in Persian btw) was the best thing that happened to us in a while now. Taking a part of history, but forgetting other parts AND the present.
@@therealmanguyman pretty much everyone here knows that. you're missing the point.
“If you’re here, you’re freaks” should be polygons new slogan
"and that's why weird creators/
Gravitate to you"
it might not be clickbait, but i have been baited to click
Another important bit of context about the original response is that there was *nothing* in the ads hinting that it was satirical. It was marketed as a straight action movie, and sci-fi fans expected a fairly faithful adaptation. So I think those expectations made it harder for people to see the satire, especially if they were halfway through before they even started to notice.
I think unfortunately that this point is damning evidence of the lack of media literacy. The film is an obvious satire. Regardless of what trailer people watched, their inability to pick up on this is sad.
Didn't that also happen with Robocop, with major themes being left out of the advertising?
I watched the movie when it came out and I just couldn't believe this movie came out of Hollywood. I thought I must've read the satire wrong, as why would a big studio fund this mockery of US politics?
Then I found out the director is Paul Verhoeven, a fellow dutchie, and then it all made sense. He put how most Dutch view US politics on film, and managed to get it funded in the US. Pure genius.
Then I heard that in the US people saw it as a silly action movie with cult following, and it took a movie like Team America for them to get satire. Big oof.
I don't know if it's the case here, but it seems like a problem of disconnect between the creators and the marketing department. Especially on big blockbusters, the marketing machine is completely separate from the people who worked directly on a film
@@todorus ... And Team America's ending speech isn't even satirical!
UA-cam tried to make me watch a video on how "anti-woke" Helldivers 2 is.
I know it wants me to leave a scathing comment. But I'm stronger than the algorithm thinks. I'll rant about it in the comments of a Polygon video instead.
nazis have no media literacy
yeah fr don't comment on ragebait. it pushes it up the algorithm
It's actually bonkers to me that some people can see a game like Helldivers 2 and think it's anything close to "anti-woke". How can you miss a point that's being quite literally thrown in your fucking face??
good call bro, i'll join you. i don't care for these alpha male shorts and i think this recipe is fake.
I never get involved in those comment sections. You reckon it's still cool to watch a small portion til you know how lame it is and thumbs down?
HD2 is facing now what Warhammer 40k has been facing for years. People who don’t get the joke.
or don't care that its a joke (which id argue is worse)
@@SgtKaneGunlock fair point, for all the ignorant people there are also some bad actors
Poes law and all that
40k taught me that unquestioning religious belief can cripple a person’s growth so hard that they never build a moral compass outside of the religious doctrine they follow, and that their morality is only as good (or terrible) as their current object of worship.
not because 40k had that deep of a story, mind- weird internet people just kept believing Lorgar was the secret good guy and would larp as chaos cultists. bonus points for the guy that told me they used to be in a real-life cult but they’re totally out of it now.
WH40K isn't helped by the fact that many at the company that owns the game don't really get the joke either. Or maybe the joke within the joke. Or at least they didn't for a long, long time, no idea what's their current approach. WH40K is an order of magnitude of a different beast, methinks.
I love that Helldivers is more of a dotted line to starship troopers than the starship troopers video game.
For me the realisation that I missed the point came when I told my Dad about Helldivers. We are both big fans of Starship Troopers so of course. I enthusiastically told him about Helldivers and showed him stuff about it.
First I showed him the cinematic and quirky voice lines and he loved the satire and the tone of it. Then I showed him gameplay and his reaction shifted. I showed him a short compilation and it had all different stuff in it that also happened in my games. The over the top explosions and violence. The players raging and cursing the bots and bugs. One player saying "Let's not attack the patrol. They haven't done anything to us." Which lead to his teammates killing him for "treason" why everybody laughed and had a good time.
From a non gamer outside perspective the gameplay and the people playing it look horrifying. Most people who play Helldiver lean into it. Yes we are the baddies but being the baddies is fun.
If I and I would say 95% of the player base would react to the game like we actually would react to these atrocities and the behaviour in reallife. But we cannot have our genuine reaction in this game. We either do what we are told or there is no game.
What I want to get at is that the gameplay of Helldivers and the way how it is played actually dilutes it's message. The fact that it is such a fun addictive game is the reason behind it's success but it is also the downfall of the tone. The game encourages us to laugh at the silly militarist extremism and then makes us willing and happy gears in that machine.
Obligatory "ludo-narrative dissonance" mention
@@SpoopySquid What did you just call me? (Ok obligatory stupid joke made. Actually thank you very much for telling me that this has a name. I am gonna go and annoy all my friends with this new knowledge)
thats a big part of some real military experiences too.
I think it works. It shows how easy it is to fall into these actions because ultimately it is fun to form a tribe with humans like you and attack the other tribe. Experiencing things like this in game form makes it easier to realise when it's happening in real life I think.
@@user-zp4ge3yp2o I dont think the game "shows" that. It does generate the experience of being hailed into extremist military tribalism, but the it doesn't really do anything to make players conscious of that fact. Comprehensible satire would show its audience how they are being manipulated; muddled satire merely recreates the manipulation and hopes the audience will have the introspection to notice it on their own.
That isnt to say it doesnt work at all though - one of the best ways to convince someone of something is to let them come to their own conclusions. But it does mean the message will not only miss, but completely backfire, a lot.
"...and just off." shot of Jake Busey
I'm dead
Me before clicking "play" on every Pat video: I can't believe I'm about to watch a 20+ minute video on a topic I simply care nothing for
Me at the end of every Pat video: not only do I care about this topic now, but I am excited to think about it with a generous but critical enthusiasm
To anyone who likes Helldivers 2 and want to learn more about Paul Verhoven, Starship Troopers and Robert Heinlein, I’d strongly recommend Kyle Kallgren’s three part video essay series on the topic it is terrific and such an interesting addendum now with the current uptick in interest with Helldivers, wonderful video Pat, I’m doing my part!
Another video about starship troopers and its satire, with lots of book comparisons is "If veterans ruled the world" by Knowing better
Sargon of Akkads Politics of Starship troopers if you want another opinion on it.
@@fdajax5107 lmao sargon of akkad
@@fdajax5107 Missing the Point: Epilogue 2 - Sargon of Akkad
From what I've seen, another opinion has almost entirely been, and I quote, "The movie is trash because Verhoeven only read two chapters", not as in-depth or up front as even this short video unfortunately
@@fdajax5107 Thanks, I was wondering where all the stupid takes about starship troopers came from.
My dad served. He was part of the Big Red 1 during Desert Storm. He showed me this movie early, like, I was maybe 12 or 13 but it's taken me a long time to realize that maybe he was trying to tell me something about war that he didn't really know how to tell a child. That and that he didn't want me to enlist when I got old enough. I really appreciate the lessons more now as a 30 year old.
As a foreign-born American who got his citizenship during the height of the war on terror, it surprised me that my friends didn't recognize the obvious satire of American militarism in Starship Troopers film even as a child.
Yeah its heavy handed to the point I dont know how anyone didnt get it
the idea that Paul Verhoeven was making a serious ode to fascism with any of his films is... wow. i guess guys really need to fill those columns, huh?
right? like did he not see robocop or total recall?
It's because people are judging it based on the script, and the script does not actually have any indication that the war is unjustified or avoidable. People IMAGINE it does because they know the movie is supposed to be satire, but in reality it doesn't. There is no indication that the bugs are not really aggressors. In fact, the revelation that the bugs are intelligent and capable of complicated action is literally the reveal that Klendathu is supposed to show. The bugs are WORSE and MORE VICIOUS than the government says they are, and the head of government - the Sky Marshal - literally resigns in shame because of his failure to anticipate this.
"What do you mean, what forest? All I see are these trees!"
@@Kirbyoto2098 If you're a movie reviewer and don't understand that the style is part of the substance, you're in the wrong field.
I live for this kind of content from Polygon. I'm about 5 minutes in and already know this is one for the books.
Is it? Consider the contemporary reviews of Starship Troopers. Media literacy may well be higher today.
@@paige_404most gamers aren't writing reviews of starship troopers
@@paige_404 'Gamers' are not largely comprised of people making contemporary reviews of Starship Troopers. What the commenter is referring to is stuff like the large number of people who seem to think Fallout isn't a criticism of various ideologies or even a 'political' game at all.
@@Zorae42 tbh I think some of the people who think that are writers at Bethesda nowadays. The Fallout series started out with a political statement to make, but nowadays the political elements seem much more superficial.
Not that you're wrong regardless, of course. I just think certain game devs (or the people who employ them) need more media literacy too.
@@blarg2429 You're not wrong. Fallout 3, 4, and 76(where other 71 games Bethesda?) are much more interested in the aesthetic and zany sci-fi world of fallout, and more removed from the original messaging to the point where when you're playing these games you don't really know if there's anything you're supposed to be thinking about because you're unsure if the writers ever bothered of if they just filled the game with generic storylines with correct moral answers. The same can't be said for New Vegas and certainly not the TV show, thank the gods, but the latest games which is what people are going to play because they're the easiest to actually get running(kind of) are also the ones with the most vapid political tones with obvious good guys(you) and bad guys(enemies with red health bars).
video titles that make me go Hell Yeah out loud
Polygon viewers will just see Pat Gil and say "hell yeah"
Got a US army ad hallway through. I’m cackling
I'm Dutch and being attacked by the Wilhelmus on Polygon is such a weird experience, haha.
Even Koning Willy was in that clip 🫡
it was also for a relatively long time lol, i was waiting for it to be over for a while
There’s a fun background to why all the folks from Buenos Aires in the movie are blond haired blue eyed …
I think it's quite telling that american critics saw the US military and the Nazis being portrayed essentially interchangeably, and the conclusion being drawn wasn't "the US military is bad", but that "the Nazis are good". For some reason, the former seems a lot less believable to americans.
As an American child (from Latin America) impacted by US American imperialism and displaced from my country, this is a topic I've known my whole life and it's so wonderful to see being discussed intelligently - especially in games which were some of my safe spaces growing up.
Also, Pat is a legend for covering martial arts in his last video, my other passion.
❤️ Love you guys, please never change
American imperialism world view is very American imperialistic
I've watched Pat's content for a while now but with every new video of his I'm more convinced that he'd be a great guy to hang out with. I need more content from people who genuinely like video games AND genuinely like to think critically.
To be fair, I think that fits much of the content in Polygon at least nowadays, but idk, I guess Pat specifically covers stuff I'm usually more interested in.
Related and relevant: The Terminids in Helldivers 2 produce Element-710, which fuels Super Earth’s FTL drives.
Now turn that “710” upside down.
Ohhh they ain't even hiding it much are they!
subtext is for cowards
"I've met writers who use subtext and their all cowards"
@@PortestdorFlamvoldt Exception to this rule is historical writers who lived before Freedom of Speech laws. Jane Austen had to couch her opinions of high society in subtext and satire because the English Monarchy had actual power to jail and punish people who criticized topics like marriage, class, slavery and the church in her time. She also lived during the Regency, when the crown Prince was ruling while the King was still alive, so the Monarchy would have been extra sensitive to critics of its position and power at the time.
One really sucessful bit in helldivers as far as sendups go is that you have the option for "random voices"
See the game has 4 voice actors that they let you pick from for your diver, i t does all the barks and shouts and screams. You hear them losing their minds while manning a machine gun or flamethrower, and you hear them scream their last as they are torn apart, blown up, set on fire
and the game gives you the option to randomize that voice on respawn.
So every time you have one voice, one person that you are piloting, and that person screams and dies in that voice, then you get called in a respawn, *and someone different walks out*. Calmly reporting for the same duty.
It really drives home how much of a meatgrinder this fucking game is, how fascism leads people so calmly to the slaughter, not just of their enemies but of themselves. This is the death that these people have signed up for, whether they fully understand it yet or not.
Its such a small thing but I think its a moment that the game really goes above and beyond bits of joking fun and reaches something quite profound, using the way that death is normally so trivial in games like this to make a point about fascism is some wonderful ludonarritive cohesion
It feels like a missed opportunity to not have this be mandatory rather than a toggle. It doesn't affect gameplay, but it does drive home the point in a way that is more difficult to ignore for players. I understand why they wouldn't do it, and that the game is more using the anti-fascist satire as a coat of paint to the fun co-op shooter game they really wanted to make, but I'd have respected the hell out of them if they made a decision like that that was a little bit more uncompromising.
The lack of voting booths is deliberate, even despite the fact that the whole game takes place on military spaceships. Super Earth has "managed democracy", where a computer algorithm automatically selects the roster of available candidates "based on the values held by the public" (which specific values are 'held by the public' is drilled into them by the omnipresent propaganda machine), and then the voting algorithm automatically selects which candidate an individual voter "prefers" based on the system's understanding of that person. Actual participation in 'managed democracy' is limited to pushing a button to vote for your pre-selected candidate, and then being congratulated for your participation in Our Democratic Way Of Life. Characters in the game literally mock the idea of people deciding who to vote for: "I heard some people want us to select our own candidates instead of using the algorithm. Yeah, and everyone will just become a political expert overnight." These people are fighting and dying for "liberty" and "democracy" and "freedom" while literally not knowing what those words mean - all they know is that they've been told those things are Good and Important and Hated By The Enemy. Hence why they've been told that the bugs are "fascists" and the automatons are "socialists". It doesn't matter whether they actually follow those political systems (for all we know the bugs don't *have* any kind of political system or society), "fascism" and "socialism" stand in opposition to "democracy", so those labels are given to the enemy factions by Super Earth's propaganda, and people in-setting are so brainwashed that they entirely believe it. One character laments that we have to kill Automatons, and wishes "someone could teach them to just not hate freedom" so we could get along.
I'd also compare Bug-War to Warhammer 40K, a British creation, and Gundam, a Japanese creation, that are both about the results of creeping militarism but a lot of people get distracted by the cool guns and robots.
idk much about gundam but 40k is a kinda shitty example since in the 40k universe there are demons that will literally eat your soul and posses you if you’re not spiritually pure so their more draconian and authoritarian measures can legitimately be justified whereas that doesn’t really apply in gundam as far as i know and it definitely doesn’t apply in helldivers and starship troopers
@@archdornan3694well no its not so much justified its more that war just happens prepitually by several factions that can endlessly sustain it. because every faction is made to be the heel so your not doing the whole gi joe vs cobra thing no one has to play the bad guy cuz where all the bad guys
@@archdornan3694 That's kind of where the fascism comes in. The overall narrative is a fascist one, because it casts the universe in that specific light, that this literal "darkest and cruelest regime imaginable" is some kind of bulwark against madness and degeneracy..........I mean.......the line is pretty there.
The takeaway you're supposed to get isn't "If you like 40k you're a fascist.", or "Well the Bad Things are justified because that's how the world is.", the takeaway is the Imperium is a Bad Place run by Bad People, and it just makes things worse by being that way. In-universe, the Chaos Gods feed and grow stronger on literally all the things the Imperium does.
That's the point, mankind is doomed and lives in a doomed universe and the reason for it is because fascism is a self destructive ideology and people should avoid it even when it has a bitchin suit of armor.
@@archdornan3694 If people need to live in a fascist theocracy to survive, why did the Imperium need to conquer or genocide every other human state during the Great Crusade.
Surely if we really needed the Emperor, they wouldn't have survived long enough to be conquered?
@@archdornan3694 In the Horus Heresy novels we see human civilisations that not only have found ways to combat Chaos without the Imperium's harsh measures, but have found ways to work with formerly hostile xenos species that don't involve extermination. The Imperium wipes them out, of course.
Man you guys never miss. I was gonna say "Ohhh Pat video of him analyzing the politics of Starship Troopers the movie, the book and Helldivers II? Sign me up!" And that is true but I also feel that way for all video producers in Polygon. This one just got me extra excited
The Mr Cool ice t-shirt is a deep cut and i appreciate it.
I was halfway through the video before I clocked it and was in shock, I had to find someone else who noticed 💀🧊
I really wished that at the end of each section Pat said, “Would you like to know more?”
In a sense, he did. Just not with those words. Or any words, in some cases.
Because their rise to power needs to happen fairly quickly, they usually fabricate a foundation on some amalgam of co-opted bits of history and mythology.
Oh, I spoke too soon. This pops up after you put on Mr. Cool Ice's flesh
13:05
fun fact: if you shoot your fellow helldiver (cardboard cutout) the general says "friendly fire is just an unavoidable fact of life, nothing AT ALL you can do to prevent it"
The intersex shower scene is very important because it highlights a few things; the first is that every servicemember, regardless of their sex, is equally disposable as a weapon of war. They are all equal in being nothing more than cannon fodder. The second is that all the characters in the shower scene are talking about how excited they are about their upcoming roles in the military and forgetting to even blush or be turned on from the sight of naked people of the opposing sex, they don't even care about things like love anymore they only care for war.
This is truly why i still love this team: these videos are such a delight and also really interesting deep dives into things that interest their makers
Guys will watch this and go "Pat, yeah".
I'm guys
Bro’s guys
Pat, yeah
Pat, yeah
Patrick, affirmative.
I don't have anything funny to say. This is just a great video top to bottom, starting with the title which made me lol irl. I'm a War on Terror veteran, and the "shot like bullets from a gun" analogy is so frikkin helpful. Do you know how expensive it was to send me to Afghanistan? Too expensive, especially when you factor what it purchased. I think sometimes about how many homeless shelters it could have funded.
Thanks for being a fuckin' good and smart gamer dude, Pat.
It's a swedish game talking about America but it's also commentary on NATO.
Sweden has been rapidly upping it's military spending because of Russian aggression and there has been more and more military propaganda accompanying that.
Putin is a bloodthirsty imperialist who should be resisted by any means necessary, but it makes sense that the swedes would be a little suspicious of this kind of militarism rising in their society and the game could serve as a reminder of just how far towards dystopia this rhetoric can take a society, as it has here in the U.S.
How is your comment edited and you still haven't noticed that Arrowhead is a Swedish game studio not Norwegian.
@@KenFromHell whoops. I initially had a shorter comment.
Can't believe a Polygon video briefly covers the exact topic of my thesis (1953 Iran)
I also love Starship Troopers. I will listen to this man as he talks about Starship Troopers.
This is the type of nerd-yap I subscribed for
Pretty refreshing to see a US centric take on fascism that is actually self-aware and context sensitive.
Unexpected, but appreciated. Another one of those thoughtful gems from an over-productive, wildly-ambitious, late-90s movie industry. The film's iconography certainly embodied, and then drove, the sci-fi genre's style guide for any narrative that was anything less than utterly utopian.
This is perfectly and exactly what ive wanted to watch recently. What a bloody coincidence! Here I am pondering Starship Troopers considering a rewatch or research plunge and now this comes out and hits the spot. That movie was REALLY intriguing so thank you for posting a video about it. I'm that much closer to watching it again.
Always appreciate your work and wit, Pat, and all the folks at Polygon that make videos like this possible
There are many larger points of this piece that are, in most ways, more important to highlight, but I'm glad that one of the reasons given for looking deeper into some form of media was "because it's fun." Being able to appreciate or resonate with art on a 'deeper' level, or even just learning some new things, is *actively fun* for me, and I don't see that possibility shared in enough discussions around media analysis or literacy or what have you
Starship Troopers was a formative novel of my childhood, twice. Once when I first read it, and once when I deprogrammed the fascism I picked up from reading it the first time (and from growing up in the 2000s).
How did you get fascism from Starship Troopers? The political order described in the book would be anathema to ideological fascists, it's a deeply liberal, if not outright libertarian, political order.
@@robertmartin6800 Are you suggesting that libertarianism is an extension of liberalism because they both start with liber?
@@MrRevertis Their names have similar etymologies, but as far as I'm aware libertarianism wasn't derived from liberalism itself.
@@robertmartin6800 This is trolling, right? I read the book last year and it couldn't be more overt.
@@liamsherriff8809 Overt? Can you give any specific examples of overt fascist thought in the book?
Two weeks late, but I just want to say this is an incredibly succinct rundown that gets the actual interesting implications, and I’m so glad you’re still making content.
I was a little too stoked when you brought up the book, Pat!
My dad (an army vet) had me read it back in middle school and my understanding of it and the movie's differences have gradually evolved over the years.
I'll admit that I love both pieces in their own right as products of their respective eras.
Anyways, I deeply appreciate and respect the depth of your research on this subject, as you do in all your videos.
"Unfortunately for everyone..." Except my Starship Troopers lovin ass.
I could listen to Pat talk about anything
4:26 cutting the clip one frame away from Richard Spencer getting decked is hilarious 😭
As a kid I thought starship troopers was a typical cool sci-fi war flick. But I still couldn’t help but feel a little unsettled and it wasn’t until I was an adult that I realized why
The next time someone asks me what that mouth do, I'm reciting this video verbatum
I know and understand why you cut before Richard Spencer got a full how-d'ya-do in his smug visage but, God, did I want to see the end of that clip again.
Great video Pat! I'm a little disappointed you cut the clip of RIchard Spencer getting decked though... it always makes me smile
An interesting video! I do enjoy the editing and delivery of these.
I'd been having some similar thoughts, regarding ways in which its clarity of purpose struggles with being a game that's fun to engage with. There's some ways to make it clearer, obviously, but the ways that make it a lot clearer also make the game less fun to play.
Something I discovered while within the community of Helldivers II? Some players are starting to become disillusioned with the _"galactic war"_ because it feels as though it's a perpetual conflict that will never end, especially because it is technically controlled by outside forces (Joel & the Devs). Poetically? I'm convinced that's the point! While our actions as players that interact with these live systems are needed to progress the game's ongoing narrative, the subtext is that this is fundamentally a quagmire of the military war machine; the true way to win? Is to not be a Helldiver at all.
This became especially prominent when there were expressed grievances for the sudden return of the Automaton Faction, who were eliminated from the Western part of the Galaxy due to a coordinated effort from the community, suddenly remerged with an even larger invasion force and established a new North-Western front! With even more resistance and difficulty to dislodge them now? Some players are feeling spurned from what should've been a definitive win, when in all reality, the game was rigged from the start.
Helldivers can subtly deradicalize Player jingoism for war, and I find that almost too intentional to not be a coincidence from the Devs who've carefully crafted this game's systems to emulate some of these concepts.
If you'd like to know more about the semi-optics of Star Troopers and why it failed to convey its satirical message (something that took a couple of seconds for Pat), I suggest you watch Ora Thiago's "O Imaginário Fascista na Cultura Pop". There's english subtitles if you don't speak portuguese.
Summary plz! You can make it long.
@@regularbeaneater Semiotic trap. You welcome.
Those 25 minutes absolutely flew by, just a fantastic and engaging piece of business right here. Appreciate this team!
Pat, I thoroughly enjoy your mini documentary style of presenting. Keep up the fantastic work.
A lovely and pertinent essay for so many reasons. Great work pat, those along with your Cod video are fantastic for taking long sober looks at how and why militarism and authoritarianism permeates our stories and games, both sterically and purposefully
14:49 I feel like I could write a 3 page essay on this frame alone. The man being inserted into the symbology of the scales is some top-class demonstration of how fascism in America would "drape itself in the flag", so to speak, with existing norms and values to legitimize itself and co-opt existing power structures. The new symbol shows fascism literally _inserting_ itself into justice and broadcasts their assertion of power over it.
they also lit it with the shape of a coffin? not really sure why or how
@@robinsparrow1618 Wow I missed that detail! My guess would be one or both of the following themes; "Justice is dead" and "we are gonna KILL you"
@@robinsparrow1618wow, good catch!
Happy to be one of the freaks here
Good vid Patrick, I appreciate having the context now, as someone who never watched Starship Troopers but knew it was part of the background for Helldivers.
I miss BDG and Unraveled, but you guys at Polygon keep knocking it out of the park with these video essays. Thanks for doing your part!
Fantastic editing, had me cackling a few times
*puts hand on youtube's algorithm* "it's afraid!"
Loved this essay and love Starship Troopers! Great work Patrick!
Pat, we needed this SO much, thank you for your service
The weirdest thing with critics was that Verhoeven's other movies were often similarly ironic in highlighting problematic aspects of culture and critics repeatedly missed the point (Showgirls, Robocop, Total Recall). Like his style of detached irony just didn't register on a lot of people then and it took years for US popular culture to catch up.
Surely he cast the aryan lead in reference to the conspiracy theories about Hitler escaping to Argentina?
Weirdly those theories don't seem to be as much of common knowledge in the US as they are in the UK and probably other parts of Europe. I like to imagine that Paul Verhoeven had the ideas either to make Johnny Rico's backstory give him more skin in the game OR to make him the Aryan ideal, but after like two seconds of thought he smashed those two together for obvious reasons.
@@PrimroseFrostthey also serve to deflect from the fact senior nazis didn’t need to flee to argentina - the US welcomed them through Operation Paperclip, welcomed them into NATO positions and into the government of the FDR
Incredibly well put and as concise as I can imagine anything trying to include the necessary context being
:D This is your best work yet I think!! Keep it up!
I think the part about how no matter how good starship troopers was it can't work on the same level as just a straight up historical analysis of fascism was really interesting.
I am eternally embarrassed by my younger self reading Starship Troopers and not realizing it was horrifically fascist, and not liking the film for the lack of the book's power armor. I do appreciate how obvious, and humorous Helldiver's parody is.
(And oh BOY am I going to get my head vaporized by a Bolter for saying this, but I would LOVE to hear you do a deep dive like this in Warhammer 40K's fascism "Parody")
40K has a big problem where there are so many writers that you're going to get a lot of stinkers who either get the satire horrifically wrong or even be wholly uncritical of... all the factions
@@Kenpokid4And the problem that they have a very very strong incentive to make the very very bad guys look cool and heroic
The Horus Heresy books make me queasy
the world in starship troopers literally has democracy and free market capitalism and still morons herr call it "fascist" because boo-hoo the military is big and uniforms scary
@@Kenpokid4I think the Cain books kind of fall for this, he's a weasel with a heart of gold (as in he cares for his people AND doesn't like seeing civilians die needlessly, basically a saint), but he's also so indoctrinated he can just casually mention in his memoirs how he arranged live fire executions of criminals for his students like it was a really mundane class he had to get through ( he had to do it as a student many times I imagine), so in the end the, thanks to the heorics and casual banter that goes into the books, the Cain books feel like the Imperium works somehow while still underlining it's society is incredibly messed up, it's not denouncing the fascism of the imperium but it is showing how indoctrination affects even the more morally neutral or good people and not just the fanatics.
Thanks for making this, man
Pat keeps on being an absolute treasure to humanity. Super informative piece.
"If you're here, you're freaks" applies to every Pat Gill video I have watched and loved
For over 25 years now I've been ending statements and discussions with "Would you like to know more?" in that American television announcer voice. The ironic fascism has somehow just become part of my normal lexicon. Also this video essay is really great.
so quotable!
Ooh, new Patrick video about Starship Troopers, instant clixk
I really like the point about it being participatory and how that can muddle the message. There's the Truffaut line about there being no anti-war movies, because a movie will have some amount of glamorization, and you could say a similar thing about a game with fun slick gunplay and missions. But you can still tell that an attempt was made to have a message and theme, and I'm glad you're talking about it and sharing the context here.
thank you pat for another incredible video! this one and your COD one are probably my favourites of yours. i have a really big interest in video games & media literacy and the intersections of them and this is exactly that!
The mobile infantry made me the man i am today, or at least watching Starship Troopers a few time throughout my life was a part of making me the man I am today.
I love that movie, it plays with ideas like; "would I have been a Nazi if I lived in Germany in the 1930's?" and answers it with, " You might have! been". if offers you a chance to look inwards even though you might not like what you find.
Don’t worry if you haven’t finished Heinlein’s book, neither did he! It just sort of finishes without a real ending.
genuinely a really really good and fascinating video. nice job covering this topic with nuance and making it interesting (and funny).
I appreciate you putting this primer on satire together for idiots, like me. I have a hard time reading nuance and subtlety, so these give me tips for how to engage with it to understand what the creator is pointing towards.
You can tell this is not clickbait since the "NOt" is misspelled.
I love the editing here. Fantastic work!
I just finished listening to the audiobook of starship troopers so the timing of this couldnt have been better for me lol Loved this!
Isn't that the Formula 1 outro song playing at 0:19?
at least for the next two years, yes.
Satire can quickly fall into the trap of making excuses so that your protagonists and major characters can actually be likable. Or in the case of Helldivers not make the player feel too uncomfortable with what is happening. The intentions of the creators may never change but the message can be warped pretty easily.
I actually think 40k is a much more extreme example of this. Over time it has become less and less satire to the point that with todays lore there is basically an excuse or semi reasonable explanation for every fascistic aspects of the Imperium. So much so the message that actually reaches a lot of people is closer to "if the circumstances are bad enough fascism is reasonable". Not intentionally I believe but simply as a byproduct of making a more appealing IP that people will buy into.
I don't think satire is a great fit for a broad IP. It works well as a one off like the first starship troopers.
Famously, "Satire requires a clarity of purpose..."
THANK YOU PAT GIL . i made a presentation about paul verhoeven movies and i love them SO much
Love this review, only thing i’m missing is i wish it was longer
Not click bait?! Well consider *me* baited
wake up babe, new pat gill anti-fascism video just dropped
thank you for reminding me how much I love Dvorak, hadn't listened to that symphony for a long time
This is one of the best breakdowns I've seen on this topic, and it should be required watching for all HD2 players LOL
this video absolutely shreds, thrilled by the whole entire thing.