Machining New Slide Keys on a Wadkin Table Saw Fence
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- Опубліковано 26 бер 2020
- A repair to the fence mechanism off of a Watkin table saw. The slide key on the bottom of the casting was worn too narrow from years of use so we milled it off and then machined new bronze keys to fit and mounted them in place.
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As we're in CV19 lockdown over here in the UK am enjoying your videos more than usual.
It's nice to see you working to help others keep their old machines running.
Nice to see something from England given a little respect by an American engineer.
I've seen Moore & Wright metrology described simply as "import" before now. :-(
Wadkin pk fence first built in 1925 and still made in the 6O's. That one dates from around 194O. Wadkin improved the design where the keys were removeable. Its not essential to have the keys exactly square because the fence plate can be altered by 4 grub screws to make it perfectly square to the blade
Great machines, worked on the PK and the later PP in the 1970s/80s.
@@eyuptony Me too! I was trained on a PP!
@@davydmir6565 Hi Davyd. Yep, I started on a PK then it was upgraded to a PP because it was worn out.
I can second this, my PK has removable keys.
That lead hammer took a beating in the last weeks! :D
I am very envious of how you get to spend your days, doing such interesting and precise work, thanks for the videos.
I’m sure there were more ways than one to accomplish this repair apparently the way you did it worked just fine. Really enjoyed watching you work Keith and thank you for an excellent educational video sir.
A woodworking machine designed by a machinist. Great Job! And I thought my Unifence was overbuilt!
All Wadkin machines used to be made that way. Designed for strength, ease of use and accuracy. Its all gone now. Such a shame.
Bronze is dirt cheap but time isn't. Whatever is quickest and easiest to do with the machines to hand is the right solution.
Nice job, I couldn’t imagine how you were going to repair it when you first mentioned it, 🤔but didn’t take long to get a flat spot on my forehead 😉. Thanks for the lesson.
Keith, I know very little about the type of work you do, but I can tell by watching your videos that I would have loved doing what you do. I'm to old now, I'm 70, but it sure looks like it would have been interesting for a career. I thoroughly enjoy watching your videos.
Your right there Keith, I had a wood work shop in Sunderland England, all whatkins, their factory was in Burr's green.
Hi Michael. It was in Fence Houses, Houghton Le Spring, went there once to order a CP12. Burrows and Green Ltd were bought out by Sagar then Wadkin. They kept the shortened name Bursgreen. Still got quite a few of each lol. Great machines.
There were actually two bursgreen factors One is Co Durham And the other one in clones. Real Wadkin Were manufactured at Green Lane works in Lester . This fence here dates back to the early 20s when the company went by Wadkin and co . Bursgreen Did not enter the wadkin company Until 1956 when sagar Of Halifax Was purchased
@@eyuptony yup , the best.
Hi. I know. I didn't want to put too much down to start and get boring (or to sound clever to others). I just simplified it. Most machinists don't even know or care how good and well thought out the old Wadkin machinery was compared to the competition. I've worked on real Wadkin machines in the past FD's 5 & 6, WO's DP's EQ's LS's plus many more. You have a fantastic collection of nicely restored machines. I have known about your workshop for quite a while. Love it.
Very hard for me not to reply. It’s just a fascinating Range. Of course I’m very fond of the classic range . I am personally shouldn’t be too much trouble or worry if someone thinks your Clever . I’ve always been bothered by little things. For instance the amount of times Keith called that bearing bronze brass lol
A very nicely executed repair. I love the solidity of that table saw fence - that's how things should be made, over-engineered.
More mass = more better.
Thanks for the great video Keith.
everything that has MADE IN ENGLAND is quality
except cars
Normally when people say over engineered they mean under engineered and over build. With machine tools however I'd agree, more is more.
Think again Mark. Have you ever eaten British food? LOL
Andrew Gillham . Yes you're right, if you want to be pedantic "over-engineered" is not the correct terminology. I'm all for being pedantic, so I stand corrected. But, at least colloquially, over-engineered means over-built/heavily-built.
Great job, the fitting is so smooth
That WAS very interesting Keith. Really nice project.
Great video - yes Wadkin are awesome - nice to see Yanks appreciating old British machinery. The old British and American stuff was far better quality than most.
That sound you can hear?
That's some German and Swiss engineers knocking at the door.
They'd like a word. :-)
There are very nice, better made new machines for those who are willing to pay. Martin comes to mind
@@paulwomack5866
I have an old Elliott Milling machine - I also have a Schaublin . They are both awesome but the Elliott is even more over engineered as is a Cincinnati. Mind you I really like the look of the Hurons which are French.
@chris0tube In general, generalisations have exceptions. :-)
Fine business....Thanks again Keith....Love watching you work...!
Thank you for providing a piece of unalloyed pleasure in my viewing this week. I love watching you exercise your skills.
Great work Keith. Came out reel nice. Great idea to make replaceable key stock. Thank you for sharing.
This engineer likes the bronze key replacements! very nice!
THANK YOU...for sharing. Watched and very much enjoyed.
You could have said "I am going to use the horizontal mill because I like to use it" and i would have agreed completely. I love watching that machine in use. Thanks for a great video.
Thanks Keith
Nice well made looking fence. Wish I had a saw that nice.
Hi Kieth . My watkin table saw is exactly the same. Same problem with dovetails. My saw is a 16" blade, from 1937 and runs true, never had a problem with it .
Thankyou Kieth
Probably a smart move going with bronze/brass for a replacement. It will wear before the slot in the table it rides in. Replacing the bronze/brass pieces in the cross slide will be easier than fixing the slot in the table.
That is one heavy duty fence!!! Thank you for sharing!!!
Such a joy to watch!
Very nice lesson and I always like horizontal mill videos, thanks.
A very nice job, a great way to resolve the wear issue, I may even borrow a few ideas from this video for a little project that I need to do.
Bottoming tap on a 10/32... yes, I too like to live dangerously.
Good job, Keith.
Great video. I would have enjoyed seeing you setup the horizontal bar and cutter.
I love when mistakes are shown, because fixing mistakes is what separates masters like Kieth from novices (or complete noobs like yours truly). Remember, the master has made more mistakes than the novice has made attempts!
GREAT JOB AS USUAL...
Great job! Nice table saw ! Good too fix hard too replace a saw like that & expensive!
As always it's a pleasure to watch your chanel
I really enjoy these small projects. Shows different ways of tackling different challenges and can be applied to other situations. Thank you so much
Always enjoy your videos thanks for sharing Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year. :o)
nice job as usual.
I always take the time to watch your videos.
Nice job 👍
Wadkins were based in my home town of Leicester, founded in 1897 and running until 2010. John Wadkin's original business partner died on the Titanic, en route to a meeting at General Motors.
Nice repair. Your lead hammer sure looks like it’s done a lot of work. Thanks for making the video. Stay healthy.
It'll be fine.
ua-cam.com/video/jFtLXes2sGI/v-deo.html
Interesting, well done.
Gday Keith. Very nice job, very nice fit, thanks for sharing, take care stay safe, Cheers Matty
Finished the work week at 11pm Friday here. Got some iced tea and filled up on gas on my way home. Knew there would be a few subscribed channels with new episodes to watch. Used smart view on my phone to project to the TV. Sitting here with a pint of ice cream & tea. Alone at my apartment but luckily the internet was invented.
Cool story bro.
Enjoyed
Hi Keith,
When I get a situation where there is not enough height to get a tap follower, I mount the tap in the chuck, put the mill out of gear and hand turn it to start it straight, then finish with the tap wrench.
Wadkin made top quality machinery, that was when a few extra kilograms of cat iron was good, not like the lightweight machines made today.
There are excellent machines made today but most people are just to cheap to pay the price.
Wakin Bursgreen are as you say Keith very high quality. Dominion were also in that class. Superb repair
Yes we had. Dominion combination machine when I was an apprentice useful machine
Hi Keith, have you thought about saving your chippings & selling them to people that make things using resin? There's plenty of UA-cam channels that do this kind of thing. Another great video from the master.
Looked it up. Sure is a saw fence. The miter gauge is awesome too.
If it were me, I would’ve made these from Ampco bronze. I would’ve first gauge blocked the flats on the dovetail-slot and made them 0.001” smaller, and I would’ve indicated to the fence and machined the keyways perpendicular. When I did mine, I even surface ground. The PK deserves it.
100% agreed. Keith did a pretty rough repair here.
I hate to be a back seat driver to one as skilled as Kieth. A job well done.
Two things--I was always taught to not try to brush the tailings off the horizontal mill on the climbing side of the cutter. The woe would be if your brush got caught in the mill and of course, zip zap, a brush with no brushes. The second thing, possibly not needed for someone with a steady hand, a tapping block when one is unable to secure the tap in the mill. I have found that tapping anything under 1/4-20 it is best to use the block to keep the tap from being run in crooked. You may be a whole lot more steady than I am, once you get past 80 steady seems to diminish daily if not weekly. I really enjoy your work, it is what I remember from 50 years ago when I finished my apprenticeship as a tool maker.
There were no climb cuts. (The entire cut length is conventional. The only time you could maybe say that a cut has both, a climb and conventional component, is when you're taking a cut wider than the radius of the cutter or when slotting.) Maybe you mean not to brush on the infeed side of the cut, but it will be fine. Also, he mentions not being able to use a spring loaded center because he didn't have enough z height. Taps are difficult to get going crooked because they naturally want to take an even cut around the entire periphery. I'm not saying that they can't get going crooked, but it's not a huge issue.
@@xenonram Agreed on my use of climb cut, but I have experience with getting a brush caught on the infeed side, semantics actually as you know what I meant. On small taps getting them straight can be done by eye but I have broken several smaller taps not using a tapping block because of hand shaking. What I was trying to relate was experience rather than specific do's and don'ts. However I do enjoy hearing from others on stuff like this.
hardest working guy on u-tube. thanks
Funny how names change across the "Pond" in the UK we call taps first and second taper and Plug taps. Nice project Keith I expect you will live in the shop for the next few weeks.
But do you call the shavings coming off the mill 'chips' or 'crisps'? lol
I'm in Australia ad have always called the taps first, intermediate and plug.
"...Let's fire up the Phase Converter..."
Anyone else get the mental image of Keith tossing a log on the fire to turn on the Phase Converter?
...just me?...
Very nice work Keith. First time i have commented on your channel. Did I hear you say you were in Tifton Ga? I grew up in Rome Ga. I miss those mountains every day of my life! Keep up the good work sir! I have been a machinist for 20+ years now. I Enjoyed the content of this video.
When setting up the casting in the mill, I would have used parallels set across and along the length of the casting to clock from. Yes they will sit on the high points, however the high points are the unworn areas of the previously machined surfaces. I would have done the same to clock along the old key. A slot drill is better than an end mill for cutting the new keyway.
He really should have referenced the 2 large bores where the tilting mechanism for the fence are pivoted from. The key slot needs to be exactly 90 degrees off that axis.
Seems pointless to work off the sides of a known worn key. In a woodworking machine there is not always even wear, because the adjustment will tend to occur from the operator side. There will be a lot rotational forces on the keys from pushing timber towards the leading side of the fence.
Looking at the final assembly at 30:58 is seems there is a LOT of reliance on those 2 small keys to keep the fence secure, rigid and straight. All loads from the timber being pushed along the fence are transferred directly to the keys. The mechanism doesn't actually lock the fence assembly down to the table at all - it's just floating, which is a very strange design decision.
I’m not afraid of heights, I’m afraid of widths!!
Hiya Keith
The extra brass could have been used for an extra set of guides for when the brass wears out, easier while you have the setup.
I'm surprised he didn't; he's done that (made a 2nd set of parts) in previous projects.
It might not won't go to waste, but rather go into Keith's brass casting material box. He has done a few videos on foundry work with brass.
He sent extra, instead of making more replacements, Keith kept the rest!! 🤣🤣
It'll be so many years before those guides wear out again any extra set he makes now will be buried in the bottom of a junk drawer and long forgotten what they are when they're needed.
Go to 3.50 and watch and you will see he said bronze not brass.
I'd love to see you melt those chips down.
Casting a bronze What Ever Part
I have an old wadkin EV....(that's a spindle moulder)...
It's an earlier one designed to run off a lineshaft with flat belts...
The in & out fences use a similar arrangement...
Sliding and micro feeds...🇬🇧☺️
You need to re-melt your lead mallet 😁. You could do it as a quarantine project
If you don't like the waste, you can melt those chips back down and re-cast them into a piece you can use
Great project, but I’d sure love to see an update on the shaper!!
What is this shaper you speak of?
Sorry, I meant to say planer. My bad.
2:44 Ooh! More tea vicar?
:-))
With the prices of brass and bronze being expensive, save the chips from cutting, and recast them into useful shapes. You can save a lot of money this way. I think you mentioned, on another video, that there was a casting shop near you.
I hate flat blade screws on machinery. On the Karger mill I'm working on, the slots are all very narrow; I had to grind a special set of screw driver blades to fit. Even then I had to use an impact driver to get some of the ~90-100yo screws loose (even after penetrant, tapping and gentle heat).
They never had a way to create Torx in the old days. Flat slot screws are the BEST way they had to transfer tightening torque. A hand-held impact driver is the correct way to loosen them - imagine how bad it would be if they were Phillips!
Keith I think you may have uploaded this before looks familiar maybe just me though regards Alan from the UK
Hi interesting, thanks for sharing the video, you know those brass chips can be used in a bluing pan.
Fun!
That would look cool with ball handles.
I'll never look at my table saw the same way again.
No. 10-32 -Bloody Hell! Should have been No. 2 BA on a traditional British made tool (Yes, screws are available, but it would have most likely been faster to make them🤣!) Looks like there was not enough wear in the table dovetail edges to display much play on the fence guide. Somewhat dodgy design with so little section bearing along the thin edge of the top of the dovetail, still overall massive quality.
Did you give any thought to resurfacing the bottom of the fence before cutting for the keys? Also, how about re-cutting the dovetail in the table since that is probably worn too?
Should have flattened that base on the surface plate. Perhaps the client can do it later?
I would have run the mill down either side of the new keyway slots, so that there was no likelihood of high spots right next to the keyway.
No issue with the repair, but (having spent at least 20 years dealing with wood fab) there's a lock-down fence for 10" saws which a good wood butcher can use to hit within .01" repeatability and they've gotten better.
Try Amazon.
That Wadkin model has a 18" diameter saw blade. It would not be right to put anything else on the finest saw ever built.
Wow,you and abom should compare notes.two professional machinist.
I really feel that there was a better way to make those brass pieces. Could have slabbed off one just over 1/4", finished both sides, then slit it down to width and finish off the sides. Just seemed like a LOT of brass waste.
Or just karate chop it like This Old Tony lol
@@CatNolara I bet a lot of people had a laugh at your comment. He even has his young lad doing those machine shop tricks now, and did you see the hilarious drawing gag that backed up his lad's suspect turning finish?
@@TrevorDennis100 indeed, ToT has some real comedic talent :D
Look at 23:50 - This was like watching a Road Runner cartoon, where they mill down a whole tree to make a toothpick.
Since the final keyways were only 9/16" x 1/4" thick he could have got 2 PAIRS of keys out of one "slice". In other words, milled it to 9/16" thick then cut it down the center and milled the 2 halves to 1/4" each.
I'm surprised that the dovetail groove hasn't worn wider as well.
By honestly, you should be using Whitworth fasteners, shouldn't you?
That is an table extension for ripping wider stock, most wear takes place closer to the saw blade in the main table slide way.
@@eyuptony - how could anyone know know whether the groove in the table (near the blade) has worn or not?
It's most likely that the slot is considerably worn (even in the extension, the finished result was sloppy). It seems silly to manufacture new bronze/brass keys to 9/16" when the slot is almost certainly wider. If it was my table, I would have machined the slot first, then made slightly wider keys (eg: 5/8") to suit.
In fact, it's quite strange to have a flat key like that running in a dovetail anyway, since the sharp machined top edges of the slot will grind the shit out of the sides of the keys.
Wow that one heavy duty table saw, looked it up bet it is 3000 lbs.
Should have some scrap barrows for the following: Brass, Bronze, Copper, Aluminum, Lead, Cast Iron and Steel. With the first 5, you can use the scrap (chips), for casting into. new items. Cast Iron Steel when barrows get full sell to the scrap yard. Or if you know someone that does casting in cast iron they may want it or take it off your hands
Everyone already knows this....
Fred's comment is so idiotically redundant.
Good video how come you didn't saw cut the width also?
hope you are all safe there.
I would have re-installed the pins that were punched out and indicated off them. They held the fence perpendicular to the slide. Using each side of the old slide is guess work at best.
^ this. All of Keith's work is meaningless if the fence (once re-installed) isn't 90 degrees to those machined keys. From what I recall, very similar fences are used on both the Wadkin PK and Wadkin PP. While it's true that even if it's not 100% at 90 degrees you could compensate for the variance by adjusting the table on the saw, it's not the ideal solution. If I were Keith, I would have left the fence on the casting, and confirmed if they keys were perpendicular to the assembled fence before machining it.
@@joshuablair6120 I thought the same thing. That's what I was thinking.
100% agreed. This was a very imprecise repair on a machine that was originally very accurately machined.
I would have touched bases with Forsberg before touching a Wadkin product,
Is it possible to melt those chips down for a small bronze hammer?
He wants one now.
put the tap in the chuck knock the machine in neutral lower quill then start tap in hole a few turns then you know it is perpendicular
You could have given the guy the fix you did (good) and a spare set too. Not that he’ll ever need it. Nice little shop you have there.
The next set will likely have to be wider to take up the wear on the dovetail. (Even though the bronze should technically wear before the cast iron, the CI will still wear.)
Could you have mounted another vice the the vertical mill?
this may be an obvious answer to most, but, when drilling cast iron, fluids, or no fluids? and, is it possible to do it by hand or is a machine preferred? (i don have any machines But hand drill, but, it woudl be a little difficult to drill either way as it is.... but, i am trying to extend a wood lathe but my extension has no holes where ei want to extend it (second extension because i thought it would be possible based on the photos of the part online, but, surprise, surprise, no holes for further extensions, so, im a bit short now on the lathe bed length i need... i dont intend to turn much of anything of much thickness, but length of at least 6 feet for spindle is what im looking to work on... so, essentially, i want to use the holes in the extension meant to go to the main lathe base, but to connect to the first extension, but, im thinking i need advice or ideas for how to align and secure it, so i can then drill and bolt the extensions together...
What do you do with the bronze chips? Do they just go in the trash?
Great repair but the cutter at about 16:00 seems to be cutting with one part of its circumference only. Am I seeing this correctly?
Yeah, I think that’s quite common with horizontal milling. As the tool needs to slide easily onto the arbor, there has to be some radial tolerance between the arbor and the tool. This causes a small amount of runout that makes for noticeably uneven cutting especially when doing shallow cuts. Doesn’t matter for the end result as the high spot on the tool ends up defining the depth of the cut across the whole workpiece. The precision ground spacer rings keep the tool square to the arbor. Only real downside is the risk of uneven wear on the cutter, which can mostly be prevented by avoiding very shallow cuts where part of the tool is rubbing instead of cutting.
I suppose if you were worried about the wear on the base of the fence, you could grind it flat, but that would require a tear down as well.
Another scraping project, most accurate fence anywhere.
@@jamesrawlings8493 LOL
When are you going to work on your shaper again?
Seems that one could have used a slitting saw on the horizontal mill to turn the bronze into two sets of keys thus reducing the large chip pile and providing your customer with a replacement set....
Keith would it been rather easy to face that bottom surface?