l guess i would get new pistons with the correct clearance for the valves.....Leo's car sure does sound good running.....Thanks Nick George and Leo..... Old F-4 ll Pilot Shoe🇺🇸
hope you had it magnafluxed that's exactly how my motor got 2 cracks and did exactly what this motor did my intake valves were tapping the top of the pistons on two cylinders started it and it sounded like a top fuel motor till it got warm and morphed into weakys twin
Told you that you would have an "Old Weaky" video out today... LOL! Would have put bigger valves in the original heads with some porting to match... If current pistons are correct piston height or higher, would cut valve reliefs for .050" clearance... Or get correct CH pistons if too low... Would have lifter pistons set barely down into the lifter bores... so can't pump up much... Thin head gaskets... 335 HP was a fake rating for Roadrunner 383 with 440 Magnum heads and Magnum Cam... Advance the ignition timing from the factory 'granny' setting and get more like 360 HP...
Nick you are a true engine builder not just an engine assembler and Skittles says the same and he also agrees that you are just an all round decent human being
Nick is being extremely generous with this thing.. I am sure the UA-cam channel helps with that but if it was me ,,, if I was Nick,,, I would have told the guy hey,,, this is the power you're gonna get with what you have and if you want to get it right we're going to have to start from scratch and do a total rebuild..
He is, but I'm the same way with my boat customers. Even though they have a budget, I donate that little bit of extra sometimes. I installed a reman engine in a customer's boat last winter. Lake tested it, my ear told me there is still power there, so I spent my lunch hour tweeking it. Its a wakeboard boat his now grown kids just ski behind it. He asked if I could tune it down a notch the other day because no one could hang onto the handle.😊 Nope, use the other ski boat I told him, he agreed.
Hello Nick, I am 70 and had many Mopar's back in the 70's and did a lot of engine work for others, and was even employed in a engine shop for a while. I love your videos and love what you do, I wished I lived in your city I would work for you for free just to be around those cars again. I love your dyno, that machine takes the guessing out of parts and settings. Keep up the great work and videos!
Here's what I would do if I owned this engine. I'm a long way from being a rich man, but I have experienced many items in life where cutting corners trying to save a buck is sometimes the most expensive way to go in the long run. I would tell Nick that somehow, I would find the money, but I want my engine done right & build it the way you know it will be right in the long run. The short-term economic pain will soon fade away once the car is back on the road and running the way you've been dreaming of ever since you sent it to Nick. There's a reason you have it at Nicks, now let him & his guys work their magic. Tear it down and do it right!! If you had done this the first time, Nick wouldn't be seeing it after the first guy did it. Doing it twice is the real budget burner on this one!
Cutting valve reliefs that way is something I read or heard about back in the 70's and likely goes back long before that. It seems like a good low-buck way of solving the problem. I'd love to see you try it out of curiosity. Sorry to see you and the owner get so deep with time & money on this one.
@@79huddy Interesting you can put up a post like this, but You-Sless Tube won't let me tell Nick where to buy turquoise engine enamel in Canada. I liked Ron Jeremy in Goodbye Earl. Dixie Chicks.
@@victordjinn632I thought it strange that Dixie chicks would use him on a vid , as much as I looked I couldn't find it . Are you maybe mixing him up with Dennis Franz?
@@outinthesticks1035 Gadzooks! You are correct. I only saw the video once and I thought that it was Jeremy. You realize what this means? I don't like him in anything.
Mark piston for inlet valve relief, Center Dot....Pull it down, deck block to be Zero deck on both sides. Get valve relief cut, look at everything else... rebuild with head gasket thickness for correct piston to head clearance... Dial in cam... Dyno...
The Mopar 8s all had piston tops low down the bore, especially the 8:1 compression models, 0.080" & more down .High compression 10.5:1 340s had the piston head sticking above block deck. Chrysler really switched around cyl combustion chamber volumes & often at same time piston head deck clearance while keeping same comp ratio in some cases. It was a mistske of the Chrysler smog engineers when they did away with the flat, evem to the head, squish zones . Theory said that the tight clearance between piston top & cyl head prevented flame travel getting in there to burn the trapped fuel, causing high exh VOCs. Well Im very good at reading fuel & oil burn patterns in combustion chambers. With the pistons further down the bore & the head's squish band removed. The flame never travels the last 5/16" to edge of the cyl. This makes even more air pollution. GM engines from one Marque to other frequently had 0.040" piston deck clearsnce. Feasible to zero deck them engines, even have pistons protruding above the deck to get minimal trapped fuel in the clearance area & max compression with the stock pistons
Hi Nick, I would have kept the original heads and have installed new SBI hardened seats then blending them to the bowls like you normally do. New stainless valves with a multi angle valve job as well. With your new seat cutting machine this would not be difficult to do. Our cylinder head guy did this a lot with the Serdi seat machine we had. The difference you found in the deck heights from side to side could explain why some 383's were hotter than others. Terry
Core shift when they cast the block, Just Mopar Joe had a 400 block machined and the piston bores were off center by almost 60 thousandths and had to get it line bored to almost the maximum before they were lined up straight in a row not to mention all the deck cutting necessary to get the decks straight and true but after it was done it made a huge difference in the performance of the engine with everything working together instead of against each other,
Nick you are a good man most people now a days would have just let it go out the door thay way. YOU have proved time and time again that you will go the extra mile to give it your best shot and take pride in your work . Love you for that.
Had to laugh when I saw the valve cutter I spent I a day brazing bits of carbide to mine when I was an apprentice it's still in my cupboard of things that worked .😊
The problem is the piston pin offset. I wanted to see a close up of the piston top, no notch! So how can we know the piston pin offset is correct? I believe the pistons are installed backward. This would place the pin offset in the wrong direction, therefore reduced piston speed on the power stroke, less rod angle on the crank journal, less leverage = less torque! The fact that the piston deck clearance are inconsistent left bank to right, may indicate ONE bank is installed with the pin offset backward. Here is what I would do: 1) pull the pan, check the pin offset. The crank rotates clockwise looking from the front. The pins should be offset to the left on both banks. (looking from the front) 2) The existing pistons could be re-installed, but I would go with new pistons with stock style valve reliefs. 3) standard build procedure, NEW bearings because the rods are installed backward too (being the pistons are backward)a 3) standard flex hone the cylinders, new rings of course, (moly rings) no further decking nor milling, just put her back together. 4) I would check the intake port alignment, and port match if necessary (due that the heads are milled)
Excellent hypothesis. If those pistons had no notch to indicate "forward", how would the builder know? However, Uncle Tony espouses the theory that installing the pistons backwards IMPROVES rod angularity on the thrust side.
@@JeffKopis That's an old circle track trick that didn't violate the rules. The reverse pin orientation LESSENS rod angularity on the power stroke, therefore lessens low to mid torque (overall torque actually) The reverse pin slightly increases power (underline slightly) at higher revvs where circle track engines are run all the time, 5000+ RPM thereabout. But on the street high torque is needed to build power faster, and more power to the wheels over the entire range of operation. The pin offset is engineered that way for a reason, free extra torque!
We used to buy flycutters and cut the pistons in place without issues. This was before aftermarket slugs were readily available. I would installl new seats in the 906 heads, do a little pocket porting, clean up the head intake and exhaust ports. You may want to advance the cam timing to get more HP at a bit lower rpm... more power for daily driving.
I use to do the same thing only I welded old file material to a valve and sharpened it to make a cutter....I would still put some clay on the piston and check it again...
Always a learning experience with the Main Host " Nick Panaritis " without crosstalk in his own shop. Good to see Leo again expressing his happiness in his car, thank you Nick for the video and crew behind him who make it possible. Peace...enjoy your day wherever you are.💯✌
Diamond pistons should have what you want. For my 383 block I bought forged +.030 pistons with valve reliefs with 1/16 ring grooves. Childs rings. I talked with Diamond a couple times. They will make what ever you need.
I have cut valve reliefs by welding pieces of file to old valves ( intake and exhaust ) and shaping / sharpening the file material, I made them slightly larger than the valves I intended to use for side clearance, worked perfectly looked correct and checked clearance using modeling clay , several engines with these mods still running 30 years later .
Since you are changing the heads anyway, consider a set of aftermarket heads. You could get closed chamber heads, which would raise the compression without milling, and the heads would flow much, much better than the factory units. They are not cheap, but it could be one way to make a lot more power without dissassembling the short block. They could be painted orange and would not look different to a casual observer.
Hi Nick. Thanks for sharing this problematic engine with all the viewers. It truly shows how much is involved in engine rebuilding and correcting previous oversights. The Roadrunner has come a long way to the right person to make it better than it was before. The passion and knowledge is showing. If they all worked properly, it would seem to be staged and scripted this is real life. Thanks for being a great honest and professional mechanic.
Love the tip about using a light spring to test valve clearance and the notching a valve into a cutting tool is brilliant. You could test that by laying the head on a piece of 1/8" aluminum to see how it cuts without taking a chance on the piston and as for clearing around the valve, a steady hand and a die grinder could do that. Sucks to put in the extra hours, but I know how you can't sleep at night when things aren't right, good luck guys, you got this.
I would try what you are doing since I have less knowledge. When I have ran in to sunken valves, I got new heads. If I ran into a block five thousands off on one side I would build a different block. I built junk motors for power and reliability. You deal with valuable motors. What you are doing or contemplating doing is next level motor work and being the block is matching numbers I totally understand why. You are amazing.
Great episode tonight Nick. I have to say you have really become increasingly aware of not only your knowledge but also your a very good teacher / Orator on a UA-cam. So your (what would you do!) I'm guessing your client wants to drive have fun with decent power. Instead of fixing this motor now spend on a donor engine I mean it's a numbers matching engin I assume. Fix it over time and preserving the original engine. Not knowing the budget I'm just taking a shot at your your WWYD segment....... All the best 😎
Keeping in budget. I am not putting all this on the clock. Way too much time involved. No matter how many times I put the engine on the Dyno, will be charged only once. Thank you for your comment.
Put on a "degree wheel" and find out what you really have. I am surprised you dont do that to all your engines. You will be AMAZED at what you find sometimes. !!!
True. Some cams don't have the lobes where they are stated on the card. In this case, both cams had the same torque so that may not be the issue. I used my degree wheel only once and it was a good thing I did because I was 60 degrees off or something like that. I misunderstood what the different squares and triangles on the gears meant. So that saved me.
Consider oversized valves to keep the heads original. Pull a piston for crown thickness, use thicker gasket on one side, flycut reliefs, grease cylinders to catch chips, if crank throws are acurate plot degree wheel for each hole and flywheel lock. Then go to town!!
Cut them in place. Seal the bore to piston gap with grease. Put a stop on valve stem to limit cutting depth. I not sure if the valve stem is rigid enough to cut that wide a relief. I kinda doubt it. You can cut the reliefs on a Bridgeport with the rod still attached. You can hold a piston and rod with a center rest and then use the mill . Love your show Nick!
I would cut the existing pistons using the process you described Nick. Clean the filings thoroughly. Put some thick grease at the top edge around the piston to keep any metal out away from the top ring and end gap. That way you don't mess with that rear seal or risk the pistons cracking.
Without the dyno, everything is one big guess! Which is why I like it when Nick is dyno testing and tuning the engine. He also gives information about the sunken valves having less compression. Makes sense! Engine machine shops are great for building great engines, but it takes a dyno and a knowledgeable operator to prove engines actual output! Chassis dyno's are great, but eliminate the power train and vehicle weight with an engine dyno for best results! MORE DYNO TIME! LOVE IT! Thanks Nick!
Check the timing gear clocking on the crank and cam to check that they were not machined in-accurately by the factory. Especially the crank. Just a thought.
I have just discovered Nick's Garage by watching the "Vanishing Point" Challenger videos. I am no mechanic and never will be, but these videos are absolutely fantastic to watch. You are both a scientist AND an artist all in one. I am learning things I never knew existed and you are such a good teacher! You explain things so clearly and you are so very entertaining to watch. Thank you so much! Best wishes.
I would like you to rebuild and work an old 361 DeSoto engine. Nick, bottom line it's just a matter of not doing a half ass job!! Your reputation as a builder is everything!!! Great video😊😊!! The 383 was Mo par's bread and butter !!!!
What ever you eventually do, I will be watching with great interest. In a world where most 383 cars have had the engine yanked and trashed for a 440, or a 400 stroker, I am still faithful to the basic 383, and want to see it stand proud as a legit muscle car engine.
New valve relief pistons with 1/16 rings is your safest bet to pick up the torque you want. Just match the weight of the old pistons to retain balance. Hope the bores work out with the proper clearance.
LS3 guys have dealt with the PTV clearance thing since day one of modding. Tape over the entire deck surface with masking tape to keep the shavings out of the piston rings and go to town. no need to make a mountain out of a molehill here. Also .03" would be plenty, you need to remember that the push-rod will be deflecting a significant amount once you have the real valve springs installed. Reher-Morrison had a good write-up online a few years ago on PTV, it's worth a read.
I agree with you he could clean the oil out of the cylinders and the Pistons and connect a Shop-Vac to the exhaust port while doing the intake side which would suck out 99% of the metal chips I would imagine
Ive always used grease, it catches the chips and clean up is pretty easy. I just grease around the edge between piston and wall then vacuum and turn the piston down. Interesting reading comments, ill wipe down with wax and grease remover and use masking tape next time, dont know why ive never done it that way.
Hi Nick & George, Glad to be here for another Monday video. Old Weaky stil has lots of issues. If it was my engine I would say the heck with the budget, lets do it right. I would keep looking for a new set of forged pistons with valve reliefs. Now is no time to cut corners. I know that Nick will keep working on this 383 until he is happy. A true Spartan never gives up!!!
Great intro George, love flying through the shop !!! Very good to see Leo and his Charger out running and having some fun . Nice Charger Leo !!!! Happy Monday to all and have a great week yall !!!!!
I've had a rear rope seal leak the 1st few minutes of running then stop leaking. I believe it took some time for the rope to absorb oil and finally swell enough to seal. Also the seal probably lapped into the crank some amount.
Geez, damned if ya do, damned if ya don’t. This is why kids need to learn stuff like this. Problem solving is being lost. Been spoiled by Google and Alexa.
Make sure you check the length of the connecting rod Center to Center. They will vary Years ago I cut the eyebrows in the piston using a tool I got from Isky you just have to make sure that you have the Piston at top dead center and you can control the depth with a stop on the valve. It looks like the tool you have is slightly tulips and it looks like your valves just have a dimple in the center but are flat so you need to get a tool that will cut them flat. I don't know if you'd degreed the cam or not but you can move that around a little bit to create more valve clearance on the exhaust valve
It was the intake valve that came close to the piston. I mentioned it on the first comment. But yes, you are correct that you need a flat cutter. Stay tuned.
You’re the man Nick . Keep at it . Actually I had a 383 2 barrel that I brought in the 90 s Pilliares Dodge phoenix 68 model yes the motor ran with a big nock . She was on 7 cylinders . What was the problem she had a piston in the sump and one hell of a bent conrod not sure what they were doing in the Dodge before I got it of them 🤔. But believe it or not it drove 😮 . All the best with the 383 I love them 👍🏻🇦🇺.
Simple. If old weaky wants to make power, the budget needs to expand to include total rebuild and perhaps reuse many components. If current budget more important, then it's 380trq out the door. Love the channel and all you do with 383s and other Mopar engines and cars.
I know money talks and we all watch the almighty dollar but in this case I would rebuild the motor from scratch (re-use the parts you can). Because, you can do this and this and is it going to work hmmm don't know right, a bit of a guess...and if none of that works where you at, back to the drawling board. I think that the easiest and best solution would be to rebuild the entire engine, start over from scratch then at least this way you know exactly what you have, parts, clearances, etc. Good Luck Mr. Nick.... As always, good videos and good content. Take care.
Hey nick,You already know this but if you cut the valve relief .090 in to that piston ,it could compromise the integrity of the crown of it. It is a forged piston though . Then you also have the issue when you plane the one head a little , the intake needs to be cut also. .010 isn"t much but both heads were already planed .020. I know you will do the right thing while keeping your customers budget in mind.
The best option for sure is a new piston with valve reliefs. But I also understand being on the customers' side of having a budget. After watching the channel, as long as I have. I know you're going to do everything you can to help the customer and keep him as close to budget as possible while doing the job right. I've always noticed your #1 goal is customer satisfaction. That's something to be very proud of. Unfortunately, you don't find that every day anymore.
Its a 360. I met Leo at Nicks Garage a while back when he was still working there and had a good chat with him while Nick was giving my buddy a ride in his Kowalsky. He's a great guy.
Maybe deck the head on the low side to get even compression. Then new valve seats and valves and porting on the exhaust valves. Then bigger valves and porting on the inlet side, both to rise the valves, and to get better flow. Maybe you can not use the thin head gasket, but on the other hand, that should not be necessary, as the valves will sit higher in the head.
That's going to be really interesting to see the difference when you change the heads and test it. That's great Nick that you trying to keep this project within budget. Great video work George
I love the valve cutter you made. Should deck that block to get it even and to clean everything ect just don’t press wrist pins an you don’t need to now anyways
I think the easiest way would be to track down a good set of 906 heads without valve recession. It may take some time, but seems easier and far cheaper than custom pistons or gambling on cutting your existing ones.
Back in my teens we could only dream about 383's and hemis so we played with Ford flat heads. In those the left bank has different length rods. Get them mixed up and you had a rough running engine with little power... Sounds like the client needs to get the block measured and the deck heights rectified .
My first 3 cars were high mileage engines when I got them. First had a 352 T-bird engine that was scary quick when I got the carburetor right and I had a lot of fun with it. The second was a 318 Dodge with a 2 barrel carburetor. It wasn't scary fast but it was once clocked at 105 mph and it went to third when I let off the gas. It is the one car I wish I still had. Third was the 350 Olds Rocket and that engine scared me. If you were driving and you heard that engine smooth out that meant you were going at least 80 mph. That's where it wanted to run. That engine was sweet but the car was too light in the rear. It would have been the perfect engine for my first car because it was heavy enough to stay on the road. I put that engine in a pickup and it nearly got away from me before I got used to it.
Thanks for keeping it real Nick! Some other shows don't show everything that doesn't go right, just perfect dyno-pulls every time. I don't think you'd be removing enough material from the piston to affect the balance in any significant way. First of, it is only one relief per piston and second the amount you are actually removing due to the canted cut is minimal. I love your "cutting-valve", although that is a whole lot of time with the heads coming on and off every time. I have faith that you will find the right solution that everyone will be happy with!
Nick, just have hardened seats installed in the original heads, and that will solve the sunken valve problem. Just make sure the new seats are installed to a depth that allows proper clearance with the cam selected. Your client needs hardened seats anyway due to today's unleaded fuel.
Very curious to see where you go with this. Careful consideration when balancing money and power. Sure tons of cash makes it all go away, but it’s cool to see you do it with what you have and understanding the reasons why you choose what you choose. Thanks for looping us in!
Pull the pistons out and have the reliefs machined into them properly Nick. Don't go half arsed. Do what you would do for your own engine. The time already expended on this engine is way over the top. You may as well bite the bullet and do it right.
I've done what he done many times and it looks like you had it machines at the shop in fact iskenderian cams sells a tool that does the exact same thing that nick is thinking of doing go look it up at isky cams
I would deck the block and get it "square", to get the same piston height on both sides, thereby raising the C/R, making it uniform on both banks of the engine, since you need pistons with an exhaust valve relief anyway, since you don't have enough exh. valve clearance. Hense, you achieve raised C/R and made it equal on both banks, and with pistons w/valve reliefs, you "kinda get your Cake, and eat it too"! Good luck w/"Old Weaky"! LOL
Nick deck the black put new Pistons with valve relief in it if you're blowing a budget it might as well be Rock solid and you'll never have the second guess any work just my opinion
Fly cut it with your homemade valve but grease up the gap between the piston and cylinder. Piston is at top dead, vacuum and wipe the metal out then rotate the crank. The piston can only go down leaving the little grease protector up high to be wiped away. No metal will go past the top of the piston. As for dome thickness, you are cutting a circle cut on an angle, the area of thin material will be so small, if it is even that thin when done. It’s not like you are reducing the dome thickness by .100” for a complete 1.6” diameter area.
I just want to make a correction on piston to valve. It was the intake valve that did not have enough clearance.
So you only have .015” piston to valve clearance on the intake side?
.090” on the exhaust?
I’d like to see the intake centerline on the degree wheel.
If you move the intake center line it will alter the piston to valve clearance.
l guess i would get new pistons with the correct clearance for the valves.....Leo's car sure does sound good running.....Thanks Nick George and Leo.....
Old F-4 ll Pilot Shoe🇺🇸
hope you had it magnafluxed that's exactly how my motor got 2 cracks and did exactly what this motor did my intake valves were tapping the top of the pistons on two cylinders started it and it sounded like a top fuel motor till it got warm and morphed into weakys twin
Told you that you would have an "Old Weaky" video out today... LOL!
Would have put bigger valves in the original heads with some porting to match...
If current pistons are correct piston height or higher, would cut valve reliefs for .050" clearance...
Or get correct CH pistons if too low...
Would have lifter pistons set barely down into the lifter bores... so can't pump up much...
Thin head gaskets...
335 HP was a fake rating for Roadrunner 383 with 440 Magnum heads and Magnum Cam...
Advance the ignition timing from the factory 'granny' setting and get more like 360 HP...
Nicky gets geeky and sneaky on old leaky and weaky to bring it to peaky and freaky 🤣
Cheeky!
I get to laugh today after all
Nick was pretty sneaky!
Classic! I love it! LOL
@@rodrigocampos510 nobody asked you
Nick you are a true engine builder not just an engine assembler and Skittles says the same and he also agrees that you are just an all round decent human being
The smile on Leo's face says it all folks, cars are FUN!
Nick is being extremely generous with this thing..
I am sure the UA-cam channel helps with that but if it was me ,,, if I was Nick,,, I would have told the guy hey,,, this is the power you're gonna get with what you have and if you want to get it right we're going to have to start from scratch and do a total rebuild..
He is, but I'm the same way with my boat customers. Even though they have a budget, I donate that little bit of extra sometimes. I installed a reman engine in a customer's boat last winter. Lake tested it, my ear told me there is still power there, so I spent my lunch hour tweeking it. Its a wakeboard boat his now grown kids just ski behind it. He asked if I could tune it down a notch the other day because no one could hang onto the handle.😊 Nope, use the other ski boat I told him, he agreed.
Agreed. This was a massive time suck and should have been done right from start if the customer wanted perfection.
This is why Nick is the way he is. A true gentleman mechanic scientist.
Hello Nick, I am 70 and had many Mopar's back in the 70's and did a lot of engine work for others, and was even employed in a engine shop for a while. I love your videos and love what you do, I wished I lived in your city I would work for you for free just to be around those cars again. I love your dyno, that machine takes the guessing out of parts and settings. Keep up the great work and videos!
My 383 (Built by Nick 1968 Truck Engine) made 400HP + 425 ftlbs and she’s just a mild build with a focus on durability😎✌️
I've had your engine in mind during this whole ordeal.
@@mickangio16 Right! Same here!
What was your engine specs? Pistons, cam, heads, intake. That's a nice power combo
As I remember You guys did a massive burnout in front of the shop on departure.
@@qwiked Yup lol
Nick the way you treat your customers , you are one in a million . Build On
Still here Nick. Haven't missed an episode. Finishing nights at A&E to tune in to Dr Nick. Greetings from Adelaide Australia
We're glad to have you on our team, Steve.
Good to see Leo again! Seems like a good kid👍
Leo has mental issues
Here's what I would do if I owned this engine. I'm a long way from being a rich man, but I have experienced many items in life where cutting corners trying to save a buck is sometimes the most expensive way to go in the long run. I would tell Nick that somehow, I would find the money, but I want my engine done right & build it the way you know it will be right in the long run. The short-term economic pain will soon fade away once the car is back on the road and running the way you've been dreaming of ever since you sent it to Nick. There's a reason you have it at Nicks, now let him & his guys work their magic. Tear it down and do it right!! If you had done this the first time, Nick wouldn't be seeing it after the first guy did it. Doing it twice is the real budget burner on this one!
This is definitely the learning channel.
Cutting valve reliefs that way is something I read or heard about back in the 70's and likely goes back long before that. It seems like a good low-buck way of solving the problem. I'd love to see you try it out of curiosity. Sorry to see you and the owner get so deep with time & money on this one.
Stay tuned!
These heads had so many valve jobs even Ron Jeremy is envious
Ron is a mess these days.
Ya mean this engines had so many head jobs Ron Jeremy is jealous 😮
@@79huddy Interesting you can put up a post like this, but You-Sless Tube won't let me tell Nick where to buy turquoise engine enamel in Canada. I liked Ron Jeremy in Goodbye Earl. Dixie Chicks.
@@victordjinn632I thought it strange that Dixie chicks would use him on a vid , as much as I looked I couldn't find it . Are you maybe mixing him up with Dennis Franz?
@@outinthesticks1035 Gadzooks! You are correct. I only saw the video once and I thought that it was Jeremy. You realize what this means? I don't like him in anything.
I think a machinist used to call that fly cutting the pistons to get more clearance. thanks for the video Nick!
Mark piston for inlet valve relief, Center Dot....Pull it down, deck block to be Zero deck on both sides. Get valve relief cut, look at everything else... rebuild with head gasket thickness for correct piston to head clearance... Dial in cam... Dyno...
The Mopar 8s all had piston tops low down the bore, especially the 8:1 compression models, 0.080" & more down .High compression 10.5:1 340s had the piston head sticking above block deck. Chrysler really switched around cyl combustion chamber volumes & often at same time piston head deck clearance while keeping same comp ratio in some cases. It was a mistske of the Chrysler smog engineers when they did away with the flat, evem to the head, squish zones . Theory said that the tight clearance between piston top & cyl head prevented flame travel getting in there to burn the trapped fuel, causing high exh VOCs. Well Im very good at reading fuel & oil burn patterns in combustion chambers. With the pistons further down the bore & the head's squish band removed. The flame never travels the last 5/16" to edge of the cyl. This makes even more air pollution. GM engines from one Marque to other frequently had 0.040" piston deck clearsnce. Feasible to zero deck them engines, even have pistons protruding above the deck to get minimal trapped fuel in the clearance area & max compression with the stock pistons
Hi Nick, I would have kept the original heads and have installed new SBI hardened seats then blending them to the bowls like you normally do. New stainless valves with a multi angle valve job as well. With your new seat cutting machine this would not be difficult to do. Our cylinder head guy did this a lot with the Serdi seat machine we had. The difference you found in the deck heights from side to side could explain why some 383's were hotter than others.
Terry
Core shift when they cast the block, Just Mopar Joe had a 400 block machined and the piston bores were off center by almost 60 thousandths and had to get it line bored to almost the maximum before they were lined up straight in a row not to mention all the deck cutting necessary to get the decks straight and true but after it was done it made a huge difference in the performance of the engine with everything working together instead of against each other,
I would really like to see you cut the Pistons. I don't think I've seen it done before on stock old pistons. Keep up the great work Nick
Stay tuned!
All we know is whatever Nick decides the maestro of Mopar will make that motor sing and get his numbers or more.
Nick you are a good man most people now a days would have just let it go out the door thay way. YOU have proved time and time again that you will go the extra mile to give it your best shot and take pride in your work . Love you for that.
I agree Nick is a perfectionist. It is not done until HE says so
Some great methodical work, problem solving can be a pain if you don't take it one step at a time.
Had to laugh when I saw the valve cutter I spent I a day brazing bits of carbide to mine when I was an apprentice it's still in my cupboard of things that worked .😊
I personally think the only right thing to do is take it all apart have the block decked and prepped, new pistons and a bigger cam.
Clearance the pistons for the cam and see where she's at
Would a cam grind help
The problem is the piston pin offset. I wanted to see a close up of the piston top, no notch! So how can we know the piston pin offset is correct? I believe the pistons are installed backward. This would place the pin offset in the wrong direction, therefore reduced piston speed on the power stroke, less rod angle on the crank journal, less leverage = less torque! The fact that the piston deck clearance are inconsistent left bank to right, may indicate ONE bank is installed with the pin offset backward.
Here is what I would do:
1) pull the pan, check the pin offset. The crank rotates clockwise looking from the front. The pins should be offset to the left on both banks. (looking from the front)
2) The existing pistons could be re-installed, but I would go with new pistons with stock style valve reliefs.
3) standard build procedure, NEW bearings because the rods are installed backward too (being the pistons are backward)a
3) standard flex hone the cylinders, new rings of course, (moly rings) no further decking nor milling, just put her back together.
4) I would check the intake port alignment, and port match if necessary (due that the heads are milled)
Good point on the pistons offset.
Excellent hypothesis. If those pistons had no notch to indicate "forward", how would the builder know? However, Uncle Tony espouses the theory that installing the pistons backwards IMPROVES rod angularity on the thrust side.
@@JeffKopis That's an old circle track trick that didn't violate the rules. The reverse pin orientation LESSENS rod angularity on the power stroke, therefore lessens low to mid torque (overall torque actually) The reverse pin slightly increases power (underline slightly) at higher revvs where circle track engines are run all the time, 5000+ RPM thereabout. But on the street high torque is needed to build power faster, and more power to the wheels over the entire range of operation.
The pin offset is engineered that way for a reason, free extra torque!
@@TheFRiNgEguitars I see, thanx for the MANSPLAIN! 😁
Pistons like these are centered. Factory pistons were offset.
Why can't hardend seats be machined into the number matching heads?
We used to buy flycutters and cut the pistons in place without issues. This was before aftermarket slugs were readily available.
I would installl new seats in the 906 heads, do a little pocket porting, clean up the head intake and exhaust ports.
You may want to advance the cam timing to get more HP at a bit lower rpm... more power for daily driving.
Good advise, i was thinking oversized valves but counterboring registers for seats would be better for clearance and shrouding.
I use to do the same thing only I welded old file material to a valve and sharpened it to make a cutter....I would still put some clay on the piston and check it again...
leos car sounds great hope to see it in person one day
Always a learning experience with the Main Host " Nick Panaritis " without crosstalk in his own shop. Good to see Leo again expressing his happiness in his car, thank you Nick for the video and crew behind him who make it possible. Peace...enjoy your day wherever you are.💯✌
Learn to BS from Nick😂
Diamond pistons should have what you want. For my 383 block I bought forged +.030 pistons with valve reliefs with 1/16 ring grooves. Childs rings. I talked with Diamond a couple times. They will make what ever you need.
Not cheap though
I agree, but waiting 3 - 4 months on this. 383's are not common to have pistons in stock.
I have cut valve reliefs by welding pieces of file to old valves ( intake and exhaust ) and shaping / sharpening the file material, I made them slightly larger than the valves I intended to use for side clearance, worked perfectly looked correct and checked clearance using modeling clay , several engines with these mods still running 30 years later .
You'll figure it out Nick! Good to see Leo I love his car.
Nick you are living the dream my man, youre surrounded by cool cars and engines and mopar stuff every day all day... good job!!
Since you are changing the heads anyway, consider a set of aftermarket heads. You could get closed chamber heads, which would raise the compression without milling, and the heads would flow much, much better than the factory units. They are not cheap, but it could be one way to make a lot more power without dissassembling the short block. They could be painted orange and would not look different to a casual observer.
block needs milling on one bank. so it's got to come apart anyway.
Woodward Dream Cruise, August 17, 2024. Hope to see you there Nick!
Hi Nick. Thanks for sharing this problematic engine with all the viewers. It truly shows how much is involved in engine rebuilding and correcting previous oversights. The Roadrunner has come a long way to the right person to make it better than it was before. The passion and knowledge is showing. If they all worked properly, it would seem to be staged and scripted this is real life. Thanks for being a great honest and professional mechanic.
Love the tip about using a light spring to test valve clearance and the notching a valve into a cutting tool is brilliant. You could test that by laying the head on a piece of 1/8" aluminum to see how it cuts without taking a chance on the piston and as for clearing around the valve, a steady hand and a die grinder could do that. Sucks to put in the extra hours, but I know how you can't sleep at night when things aren't right, good luck guys, you got this.
I would try what you are doing since I have less knowledge. When I have ran in to sunken valves, I got new heads. If I ran into a block five thousands off on one side I would build a different block. I built junk motors for power and reliability. You deal with valuable motors. What you are doing or contemplating doing is next level motor work and being the block is matching numbers I totally understand why. You are amazing.
Yeah get new pistons with valve relief on them....good content..Nick... thanks...🔧🔧👍
Great episode tonight Nick.
I have to say you have really become increasingly aware of not only your knowledge but also your a very good teacher / Orator on a UA-cam.
So your (what would you do!)
I'm guessing your client wants to drive have fun with decent power.
Instead of fixing this motor now spend on a donor engine
I mean it's a numbers matching engin I assume.
Fix it over time and preserving the original engine.
Not knowing the budget I'm just taking a shot at your your WWYD segment.......
All the best
😎
Keeping in budget. I am not putting all this on the clock. Way too much time involved. No matter how many times I put the engine on the Dyno, will be charged only once. Thank you for your comment.
Put on a "degree wheel" and find out what you really have. I am surprised you dont do that to all your engines. You will be AMAZED at what you find sometimes. !!!
True. Some cams don't have the lobes where they are stated on the card. In this case, both cams had the same torque so that may not be the issue.
I used my degree wheel only once and it was a good thing I did because I was 60 degrees off or something like that. I misunderstood what the different squares and triangles on the gears meant. So that saved me.
When i am in a hurry i use clay, it works and it is accurate withen a few ths.
He did. I guess you missed him saying that.
I was able to follow most of this, my meds must be working. Great stuff Nick. !
You get out of what you have inside… Thanks Nick for demonstrating the expertise to identify the inside issues with the outside performance…
I would send it to Nick a good project for the long winter. Good luck Nick.
Consider oversized valves to keep the heads original. Pull a piston for crown thickness, use thicker gasket on one side, flycut reliefs, grease cylinders to catch chips, if crank throws are acurate plot degree wheel for each hole and flywheel lock. Then go to town!!
Or play with cam timing
Cut them in place. Seal the bore to piston gap with grease. Put a stop on valve stem to limit cutting depth.
I not sure if the valve stem is rigid enough to cut that wide a relief. I kinda doubt it.
You can cut the reliefs on a Bridgeport with the rod still attached. You can hold a piston and rod with a center rest and then use the mill .
Love your show Nick!
Just what I was thinking.
I would cut the existing pistons using the process you described Nick. Clean the filings thoroughly. Put some thick grease at the top edge around the piston to keep any metal out away from the top ring and end gap. That way you don't mess with that rear seal or risk the pistons cracking.
Without the dyno, everything is one big guess! Which is why I like it when Nick is dyno testing and tuning the engine.
He also gives information about the sunken valves having less compression. Makes sense!
Engine machine shops are great for building great engines, but it takes a dyno and a knowledgeable operator to prove engines actual output!
Chassis dyno's are great, but eliminate the power train and vehicle weight with an engine dyno for best results!
MORE DYNO TIME! LOVE IT!
Thanks Nick!
Check the timing gear clocking on the crank and cam to check that they were not machined in-accurately by the factory.
Especially the crank.
Just a thought.
I have just discovered Nick's Garage by watching the "Vanishing Point" Challenger videos.
I am no mechanic and never will be, but these videos are absolutely fantastic to watch. You are both a scientist AND an artist all in one. I am learning things I never knew existed and you are such a good teacher! You explain things so clearly and you are so very entertaining to watch. Thank you so much! Best wishes.
I would like you to rebuild and work an old 361 DeSoto engine. Nick, bottom line it's just a matter of not doing a half ass job!! Your reputation as a builder is everything!!! Great video😊😊!! The 383 was Mo par's bread and butter !!!!
What ever you eventually do, I will be watching with great interest. In a world where most 383 cars have had the engine yanked and trashed for a 440, or a 400 stroker, I am still faithful to the basic 383, and want to see it stand proud as a legit muscle car engine.
I've seen some pretty rowdy 383s in their day. My second car was a '64 Polara 500 383/4spd. I did replace the 383 with a 440, though.
That’s a neat way of cutting reliefs in the pistons!
I'm pretty sure isky cams sells a tool very similar to what he made
New valve relief pistons with 1/16 rings is your safest bet to pick up the torque you want. Just match the weight of the old pistons to retain balance. Hope the bores work out with the proper clearance.
check the casting code, I bet it was casted on Friday after lunch ?
Good point.
Leo clicking his seat belt, gave me an instant flashback to the beginning of the Bullett chase scene.
LS3 guys have dealt with the PTV clearance thing since day one of modding. Tape over the entire deck surface with masking tape to keep the shavings out of the piston rings and go to town. no need to make a mountain out of a molehill here. Also .03" would be plenty, you need to remember that the push-rod will be deflecting a significant amount once you have the real valve springs installed. Reher-Morrison had a good write-up online a few years ago on PTV, it's worth a read.
I agree with you he could clean the oil out of the cylinders and the Pistons and connect a Shop-Vac to the exhaust port while doing the intake side which would suck out 99% of the metal chips I would imagine
Ive always used grease, it catches the chips and clean up is pretty easy. I just grease around the edge between piston and wall then vacuum and turn the piston down. Interesting reading comments, ill wipe down with wax and grease remover and use masking tape next time, dont know why ive never done it that way.
Hi Nick & George, Glad to be here for another Monday video. Old Weaky stil has lots of issues. If it was my engine I would say the heck with the budget, lets do it right. I would keep looking for a new set of forged pistons with valve reliefs. Now is no time to cut corners. I know that Nick will keep working on this 383 until he is happy. A true Spartan never gives up!!!
Right on, Eugene. Thanks for being here.
Great intro George, love flying through the shop !!! Very good to see Leo and his Charger out running and having some fun . Nice Charger Leo !!!! Happy Monday to all and have a great week yall !!!!!
Good to see Leo doing ok and having fun. 🙂
Get that uneven block deck rectified, Nick. That's a lot of the problem right there.
- Ed on the Ridge
Leo is an excellent young man.
I've had a rear rope seal leak the 1st few minutes of running then stop leaking. I believe it took some time for the rope to absorb oil and finally swell enough to seal. Also the seal probably lapped into the crank some amount.
Geez, damned if ya do, damned if ya don’t. This is why kids need to learn stuff like this. Problem solving is being lost. Been spoiled by Google and Alexa.
Make sure you check the length of the connecting rod Center to Center. They will vary
Years ago I cut the eyebrows in the piston using a tool I got from Isky you just have to make sure that you have the Piston at top dead center and you can control the depth with a stop on the valve. It looks like the tool you have is slightly tulips and it looks like your valves just have a dimple in the center but are flat so you need to get a tool that will cut them flat.
I don't know if you'd degreed the cam or not but you can move that around a little bit to create more valve clearance on the exhaust valve
It was the intake valve that came close to the piston. I mentioned it on the first comment. But yes, you are correct that you need a flat cutter. Stay tuned.
You’re the man Nick . Keep at it . Actually I had a 383 2 barrel that I brought in the 90 s Pilliares Dodge phoenix 68 model yes the motor ran with a big nock . She was on 7 cylinders . What was the problem she had a piston in the sump and one hell of a bent conrod not sure what they were doing in the Dodge before I got it of them 🤔. But believe it or not it drove 😮 . All the best with the 383 I love them 👍🏻🇦🇺.
What a legend learn something every time I watch these videos
Simple. If old weaky wants to make power, the budget needs to expand to include total rebuild and perhaps reuse many components. If current budget more important, then it's 380trq out the door.
Love the channel and all you do with 383s and other Mopar engines and cars.
Nick, you are truely a gentleman master mechanic scientist.❤
Great to see Nick enjoying life and talking shop…. 😎
This is why I enjoy watching your channel Nick, perseverance! With you and your great team this engine will shine!
Question are those pistons that were in the block from the factory, and any salvage yard have the kind you want to use..
@@brucehorner936 ..No, not from the factory. Finding used pistons is not the way to go.
I know money talks and we all watch the almighty dollar but in this case I would rebuild the motor from scratch (re-use the parts you can). Because, you can do this and this and is it going to work hmmm don't know right, a bit of a guess...and if none of that works where you at, back to the drawling board. I think that the easiest and best solution would be to rebuild the entire engine, start over from scratch then at least this way you know exactly what you have, parts, clearances, etc. Good Luck Mr. Nick....
As always, good videos and good content. Take care.
My volvo 850r manual 20 valve 2.5t 400hp is nice, still love the old dinosaurs V8s
You know sometimes I go get a haircut as short as I can so the gray hairs won’t show but what an ordeal you’re going through, you’re a good man Nick.
Hey nick,You already know this but if you cut the valve relief .090 in to that piston ,it could compromise the integrity of the crown of it. It is a forged piston though . Then you also have the issue when you plane the one head a little , the intake needs to be cut also. .010 isn"t much but both heads were already planed .020. I know you will do the right thing while keeping your customers budget in mind.
The piston is .450 thick. Cutting .040 - .050 is no issues.
The best option for sure is a new piston with valve reliefs. But I also understand being on the customers' side of having a budget. After watching the channel, as long as I have. I know you're going to do everything you can to help the customer and keep him as close to budget as possible while doing the job right. I've always noticed your #1 goal is customer satisfaction. That's something to be very proud of. Unfortunately, you don't find that every day anymore.
Good to see the young man and his 340! Looking forward to seeing the "Old Weaky" upgraded by the "Old Greeky" 🦾
Its a 360. I met Leo at Nicks Garage a while back when he was still working there and had a good chat with him while Nick was giving my buddy a ride in his Kowalsky. He's a great guy.
Put tape around the piston edge for easy cleanup.
Maybe deck the head on the low side to get even compression. Then new valve seats and valves and porting on the exhaust valves. Then bigger valves and porting on the inlet side, both to rise the valves, and to get better flow. Maybe you can not use the thin head gasket, but on the other hand, that should not be necessary, as the valves will sit higher in the head.
That's going to be really interesting to see the difference when you change the heads and test it. That's great Nick that you trying to keep this project within budget. Great video work George
I love the valve cutter you made. Should deck that block to get it even and to clean everything ect just don’t press wrist pins an you don’t need to now anyways
You know what you are doing. And thank you for doing so much work on your dime. I'm excited to see the end results!! All you said is right!!
I had a 383 and a carb spacer helped mine allot. That don't always work but a idea.!! Thanks forbthe video
You're the man Nick. You have all kinds of knowledge Nick I would love to know half of that.
Thank-you
What a clever idea! Good going, Nick! Canadian ingenuity at work.
I think the easiest way would be to track down a good set of 906 heads without valve recession. It may take some time, but seems easier and far cheaper than custom pistons or gambling on cutting your existing ones.
Back in my teens we could only dream about 383's and hemis so we played with Ford flat heads. In those the left bank has different length rods. Get them mixed up and you had a rough running engine with little power... Sounds like the client needs to get the block measured and the deck heights rectified .
My first 3 cars were high mileage engines when I got them. First had a 352 T-bird engine that was scary quick when I got the carburetor right and I had a lot of fun with it. The second was a 318 Dodge with a 2 barrel carburetor. It wasn't scary fast but it was once clocked at 105 mph and it went to third when I let off the gas. It is the one car I wish I still had. Third was the 350 Olds Rocket and that engine scared me. If you were driving and you heard that engine smooth out that meant you were going at least 80 mph. That's where it wanted to run. That engine was sweet but the car was too light in the rear. It would have been the perfect engine for my first car because it was heavy enough to stay on the road. I put that engine in a pickup and it nearly got away from me before I got used to it.
You’re a good man, Nick.
Thanks for keeping it real Nick! Some other shows don't show everything that doesn't go right, just perfect dyno-pulls every time. I don't think you'd be removing enough material from the piston to affect the balance in any significant way. First of, it is only one relief per piston and second the amount you are actually removing due to the canted cut is minimal. I love your "cutting-valve", although that is a whole lot of time with the heads coming on and off every time. I have faith that you will find the right solution that everyone will be happy with!
I will do my best.
Nick, just have hardened seats installed in the original heads, and that will solve the sunken valve problem. Just make sure the new seats are installed to a depth that allows proper clearance with the cam selected. Your client needs hardened seats anyway due to today's unleaded fuel.
I agree, but the cylinder heads I have for him are very cheap in price.
Very curious to see where you go with this. Careful consideration when balancing money and power. Sure tons of cash makes it all go away, but it’s cool to see you do it with what you have and understanding the reasons why you choose what you choose. Thanks for looping us in!
New pistons, and deck the Block!
You payin' for it?
Pull the pistons out and have the reliefs machined into them properly Nick. Don't go half arsed. Do what you would do for your own engine. The time already expended on this engine is way over the top. You may as well bite the bullet and do it right.
I've done what he done many times and it looks like you had it machines at the shop in fact iskenderian cams sells a tool that does the exact same thing that nick is thinking of doing go look it up at isky cams
New custom pistons for sure
George: Production, Direction, Editing, Score. Respect. Bring on talent to help? Peace
I would deck the block and get it "square", to get the same piston height on both sides, thereby raising the C/R, making it uniform on both banks of the engine, since you need pistons with an exhaust valve relief anyway, since you don't have enough exh. valve clearance. Hense, you achieve raised C/R and made it equal on both banks, and with pistons w/valve reliefs, you "kinda get your Cake, and eat it too"! Good luck w/"Old Weaky"! LOL
Nick deck the black put new Pistons with valve relief in it if you're blowing a budget it might as well be Rock solid and you'll never have the second guess any work just my opinion
Not going to blow the budget. Keeping it safe and will do our best.
Fly cut it with your homemade valve but grease up the gap between the piston and cylinder. Piston is at top dead, vacuum and wipe the metal out then rotate the crank. The piston can only go down leaving the little grease protector up high to be wiped away. No metal will go past the top of the piston. As for dome thickness, you are cutting a circle cut on an angle, the area of thin material will be so small, if it is even that thin when done. It’s not like you are reducing the dome thickness by .100” for a complete 1.6” diameter area.
Get the right pistons and machine that block. That rear main seal still scares me. Something that leaks once usually does it again in the future.
😊😀😎❤️😇 Nice Nick Can’t Wait Too See What You Decide Too Do and How It Turns Out 😊
Really looking forward to this.