I've heard some people (including Adam at zero friction cycling) saying that 11 and 12 speed chains are 'better made' than 8, 9, and 10 speed chain, and so do not wear as quick. But I am convinced by your idea that the opposite is actually the case. I'm still a believer in 8 and 9 speed bikes for winter(+most of my commuting) because it's all I need, and it's just less to go wrong and maintain: I'd rather have a very well maintained 9 speed bike to get me through winter than a dodgy barely passable 11 speed bike :)
Yes I agree with your assessment on this. I find my 8 speed chain lasts longer than my 11 speed. I get through the 11 faster than my 10 speed as well. (The BBB 10 speed chains I use are beautifully made and smooth as silk so I don’t think Adam is 100% correct on that?) I would say the thinner the chain the more likely it is to wear out or become damaged. The old 8-9 speed is perfect for winter or gravel because it’s reliable even when clogged with wet leaves and mud! Nice big gaps between the cogs. 🙂👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165 Thanks for the detailed reply! Good point on the gaps between cogs: also makes it just that bit easier to do a quick clean of the cassette while it's on the bike.
Not all chains are made the same. A flagship 12speed chain, properly maintained, is going to outlast a 9 or 10. The material is simply superior. The problem is how many of us are that disciplined with chain waxing and all that mess? And the fact that its really a system, not just an individual component (chain in this case), that matters to performance. And then there's all the stuff mentioned in this video.
Great video Reginald . I’ve heard the same said about other group sets also. In general you’d be better with a 10 or 11 speed but to stay away from the 12 speed. Looking forward to your next video .All the best!
I am using both Sensah Empire Pro 12S and Ltwoo RX 12S on my bikes with full internal routing and they both perform fine. What is important is that you ensure your cable housing runs are properly run with minimal kinks(especially for fully integrated stems). 12S systems are inherently more finicky because of tighter tolerances demanded of the entire system which includes the frame and all cable runs. It is important to highlight that this will be true for any cable actuated 12s system as compared to standard 11s so it has nothing to do with Sensahs quality which I find to be outstanding at it's price point.
Yes the quality of their stuff is fine, and they are constantly improving it as well. This bike was also internally routed and had a fully integrated cockpit… so it was probably just too much friction on the cable. If it was external routing then I might risk it. Great comment and thanks for the information!
The problem is the cable. It will work better with frames that doesn’t have internal routing in the headset. When the cable is pulled to the fullest its stretches the housing at the ends and prevents the cable from going further. Also the rear derailleur cable housing when exits the frame at the chain-stays has to be slightly larger and flexible. You are right, its not worth the hustle. If you have an old frame with external routing with less kink issues itll work
The bike industry has said for years that the newer chains are "stronger" (they have never said they last longer). Stronger means the breaking strength is higher, this does not correlate with durability. They say this so people buy new stuff. The bike industry tells many half truths to drive business. Consumers are stupid.
What about with Campagnolo mechanical 12-speed? Because I think due to the barrel adjuster not having indexed steps, it has the ability to fine-tune indexing better than Sensah.
I have Campy ekar 13 speed and Campy record 12 speed, both mechanical, both shift very well. Shift quality is not so sensible to barrel adjusting, 13 speed is more sensible than 12 speed and a little noisyer, but consider that the cassette is a 10-44.
I can’t comment on Campy because I have never seen the 12 speed system in my shop. 🙂 So perhaps their is some differences with the system that just make it better then Shimano or Sensah. But I’d be interested to know what the spacing is like and the thickness of the chain? Sorry I can answer the question but I really appreciate the comment! 🙂👍🏻
@@chrisprice2200 As far as I can remember, the models that received the EPS treatment (excluding the recently launched wireless version) are Super Record, Record, Chorus and Athena.
sounds like a cassette issue (assuming literally everything else is perfect), id go with campags inner cables to reduce friction further... but this is besides the point in buying a £300 groupset.
@@reginaldscot165 Why would you put an Audi R8 GT3 spoiler on a Daihatsu? Speak to Trace Velo, he had issue with the cassette; so should be able to tell you which one works best. But, if its under throwing at one end of the block and over at the other, then its a SRAM style indexing issue in the ergolever.
Nah, more is more. But that said, I will stop at 11speed since to go with 12 I need to start replacing cassette bodies and cassettes, chains, shifters, and I have too many bikes and 11 speed components to make the jump. If I only had one bike I would go with the 12 speed.
Never could understand why, they can't simply make the frames a few millimeters wider in the rear, to allow for more spacing on the cassette. I can understand why it's finicky, due to the tight tolerance and possible deflection.
I definitely noticed using different cassettes give different results. With the Sensah 12 speed. I’ve use a 11-28 and 11-50 both off aliexpress. I would like to try a SRAM or Shimano cassette to see if the are any differences.
I don’t get to play with Campy much because nobody here buys it. No replacement parts, no support no advantage for local buyers. Personally I’m not a fan of campy. I think it’s overrated, I had campy record on a previous bike and it’s my least favourite group set of any I have ever used unfortunately. Thank you for your question. 🙂👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165 right on... I agree with you about being overrated and especially for what you have to pay for it, but they are pretty to look at, kinda like the super hot girl that's dumb as a bag of hammers.
Thanks for the info. But I bet most bike user dont even know how to use their gear properly (including me), or even how to utilize its function well, let alone knowing the difference between group sets. I know, Im guilty of it.
I agree with your assessment whole heartedly. But I was kind of under the impression that the new Hyper Glide + chain and cassette ramping was more of a factor in getting the 12 speed to work than the Elec. shifting. Not saying it doesn't play an important role, just not as much maybe... Which leads me to the question for you. Do you think an HG+ chain and cassette would fix your 12 spd Empire issues? I don't know... Thanks for the video and looking forward to more and your thoughts on the world. 😉🚲
That’s interesting you should ask that! We actually put an Ultegra 12 speed cassette and chain on the Sensah 12 speed group set. Unfortunately it still didn’t fix the problem. That’s why I concluded that it’s the limitations of the mechanical shift system(pull length and ratchet Ratio) rather than the quality of the cassette. 🙂👍🏻 That was a great comment, I should have included that information in my video. Thank you for asking about it. 🙏🏻
@@reginaldscot165 Awesome, thanks! One more burning question answered. Not that I have the least bit of desire to go 12. LOL 👍🤣 Not sure I'm real fond of the very particular and needy 11 that I currently have. 🙃🤣
Unless we've seen this stuff after a year or two in the field, we cannot label them as "good quality". The Chinese are masters of faux quality... something that appears good but lacks quality materials... cheap steel alloys that rust... plastics and rubbers that become brittle and color fade... etc. Such things cannot be assessed by looking at this junk out of the box brand new.
Ok sensa 12 speed sucks …but you cannot say that this problem is due to mechanical 12 speed in general, I have a mechanical campy ekar 13 speed and it shifts incredibly well. I think the problema is simply the low quality and the bad engineering of chinese sensa group.
Shimano's and SRAM's mechanical rear derailleurs have indexed barrel adjusters (I think Sensah has the same too), so I think this might also play a part in not being able to really fine-tune the indexing.
Yes you could be right about that, I can’t comment on Campy because I have never even seen the 12/13 speed. That’s why I only spoke about SRAM/Shimano, it seems to me that one main reason for moving to electronic derailleurs was the simple and cheaper solution to the 12 speed system. I bet campy worked much harder on coming up with a mechanical fix that probably cost the company a lot more in long run. (I don’t even know anyone who could afford Campy 12/13? You must be a millionaire! Can we be friends! 🤣) But that’s Campy for you, they don’t think about maximum profits all the time, they think about maximum quality and that unfortunately is why they aren’t as successful on the mass market. Great comment! Thank you!
@@reginaldscot165 I’m not a millionaire, sorry 🙂 … mechanical campy (record) is less expensive than new Shimano 105 … I think the point is component manufacturing quality and tolerances and quality of the cables, given that a set of campy 12/13 speed cables costs 100 €. As far as I know campy released mechanical 12 speed before elctric 12 speed and they don’t have an electric 13 speed at all
I've heard some people (including Adam at zero friction cycling) saying that 11 and 12 speed chains are 'better made' than 8, 9, and 10 speed chain, and so do not wear as quick. But I am convinced by your idea that the opposite is actually the case. I'm still a believer in 8 and 9 speed bikes for winter(+most of my commuting) because it's all I need, and it's just less to go wrong and maintain: I'd rather have a very well maintained 9 speed bike to get me through winter than a dodgy barely passable 11 speed bike :)
Yes I agree with your assessment on this. I find my 8 speed chain lasts longer than my 11 speed. I get through the 11 faster than my 10 speed as well. (The BBB 10 speed chains I use are beautifully made and smooth as silk so I don’t think Adam is 100% correct on that?) I would say the thinner the chain the more likely it is to wear out or become damaged. The old 8-9 speed is perfect for winter or gravel because it’s reliable even when clogged with wet leaves and mud! Nice big gaps between the cogs. 🙂👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165 Thanks for the detailed reply! Good point on the gaps between cogs: also makes it just that bit easier to do a quick clean of the cassette while it's on the bike.
Not all chains are made the same. A flagship 12speed chain, properly maintained, is going to outlast a 9 or 10. The material is simply superior. The problem is how many of us are that disciplined with chain waxing and all that mess? And the fact that its really a system, not just an individual component (chain in this case), that matters to performance. And then there's all the stuff mentioned in this video.
Great video Reginald .
I’ve heard the same said about other group sets also.
In general you’d be better
with a 10 or 11 speed but to stay away from the 12 speed.
Looking forward to your next video .All the best!
Yes that makes sense that other systems are having similar issues. Great comment and thank you! 👍🏻🙂
I am using both Sensah Empire Pro 12S and Ltwoo RX 12S on my bikes with full internal routing and they both perform fine.
What is important is that you ensure your cable housing runs are properly run with minimal kinks(especially for fully integrated stems).
12S systems are inherently more finicky because of tighter tolerances demanded of the entire system which includes the frame and all cable runs. It is important to highlight that this will be true for any cable actuated 12s system as compared to standard 11s so it has nothing to do with Sensahs quality which I find to be outstanding at it's price point.
Yes the quality of their stuff is fine, and they are constantly improving it as well. This bike was also internally routed and had a fully integrated cockpit… so it was probably just too much friction on the cable. If it was external routing then I might risk it.
Great comment and thanks for the information!
The problem is the cable. It will work better with frames that doesn’t have internal routing in the headset. When the cable is pulled to the fullest its stretches the housing at the ends and prevents the cable from going further. Also the rear derailleur cable housing when exits the frame at the chain-stays has to be slightly larger and flexible. You are right, its not worth the hustle. If you have an old frame with external routing with less kink issues itll work
You are 100% right about that. Yes the frame was a modern style frame and the cables were definitely a big part of the issue.
The bike industry has said for years that the newer chains are "stronger" (they have never said they last longer). Stronger means the breaking strength is higher, this does not correlate with durability. They say this so people buy new stuff. The bike industry tells many half truths to drive business. Consumers are stupid.
We are stupid. I’ve been stupid many times, but with experience I’m hoping I can do it less. 🤭
Thanks for the professional input.
Welcome
What about with Campagnolo mechanical 12-speed? Because I think due to the barrel adjuster not having indexed steps, it has the ability to fine-tune indexing better than Sensah.
I have Campy ekar 13 speed and Campy record 12 speed, both mechanical, both shift very well. Shift quality is not so sensible to barrel adjusting, 13 speed is more sensible than 12 speed and a little noisyer, but consider that the cassette is a 10-44.
I can’t comment on Campy because I have never seen the 12 speed system in my shop. 🙂 So perhaps their is some differences with the system that just make it better then Shimano or Sensah. But I’d be interested to know what the spacing is like and the thickness of the chain?
Sorry I can answer the question but I really appreciate the comment! 🙂👍🏻
I came for the campy comments. Their the opposite of S and S. They only have 1 electric group and the rest are mechanical
@@chrisprice2200 As far as I can remember, the models that received the EPS treatment (excluding the recently launched wireless version) are Super Record, Record, Chorus and Athena.
@@sbccbc7471 they did at one point, but for the last few years it was only Super Record.
sounds like a cassette issue (assuming literally everything else is perfect), id go with campags inner cables to reduce friction further... but this is besides the point in buying a £300 groupset.
Good points. The cassette was a new Ultegra 12 speed.
@@reginaldscot165 Why would you put an Audi R8 GT3 spoiler on a Daihatsu? Speak to Trace Velo, he had issue with the cassette; so should be able to tell you which one works best. But, if its under throwing at one end of the block and over at the other, then its a SRAM style indexing issue in the ergolever.
Thanks for the info.
Welcome 🙏🏻
No one on earth needs more than a 10 speed bike manufacturers are getting ridiculous
Yeah, I love my 10 speed. It was just right. 👍🏻
Nah, more is more. But that said, I will stop at 11speed since to go with 12 I need to start replacing cassette bodies and cassettes, chains, shifters, and I have too many bikes and 11 speed components to make the jump. If I only had one bike I would go with the 12 speed.
Never could understand why, they can't simply make the frames a few millimeters wider in the rear, to allow for more spacing on the cassette. I can understand why it's finicky, due to the tight tolerance and possible deflection.
Probably a few reasons. It would be a massive industry change to do this.
wider freehub body means more crosschaining and requires wider chain line and leads to wider q factor / less ergonomic pedaling, less aerodynamics
I definitely noticed using different cassettes give different results.
With the Sensah 12 speed. I’ve use a 11-28 and 11-50 both off aliexpress. I would like to try a SRAM or Shimano cassette to see if the are any differences.
We used a Ultegra 12 speed cassette, 11-28. It still wasn’t good unfortunately. 🤷🏻♂️
What about the campy 13s Ekar how do you feel about that one?
I don’t get to play with Campy much because nobody here buys it. No replacement parts, no support no advantage for local buyers.
Personally I’m not a fan of campy. I think it’s overrated, I had campy record on a previous bike and it’s my least favourite group set of any I have ever used unfortunately.
Thank you for your question. 🙂👍🏻
@@reginaldscot165 right on... I agree with you about being overrated and especially for what you have to pay for it, but they are pretty to look at, kinda like the super hot girl that's dumb as a bag of hammers.
Thanks for the info. But I bet most bike user dont even know how to use their gear properly (including me), or even how to utilize its function well, let alone knowing the difference between group sets. I know, Im guilty of it.
You will learn in time 🙂👍🏻
I agree with your assessment whole heartedly. But I was kind of under the impression that the new Hyper Glide + chain and cassette ramping was more of a factor in getting the 12 speed to work than the Elec. shifting. Not saying it doesn't play an important role, just not as much maybe... Which leads me to the question for you. Do you think an HG+ chain and cassette would fix your 12 spd Empire issues? I don't know...
Thanks for the video and looking forward to more and your thoughts on the world. 😉🚲
That’s interesting you should ask that! We actually put an Ultegra 12 speed cassette and chain on the Sensah 12 speed group set. Unfortunately it still didn’t fix the problem. That’s why I concluded that it’s the limitations of the mechanical shift system(pull length and ratchet Ratio) rather than the quality of the cassette. 🙂👍🏻
That was a great comment, I should have included that information in my video. Thank you for asking about it. 🙏🏻
@@reginaldscot165 Awesome, thanks! One more burning question answered. Not that I have the least bit of desire to go 12. LOL 👍🤣 Not sure I'm real fond of the very particular and needy 11 that I currently have. 🙃🤣
Unless we've seen this stuff after a year or two in the field, we cannot label them as "good quality". The Chinese are masters of faux quality... something that appears good but lacks quality materials... cheap steel alloys that rust... plastics and rubbers that become brittle and color fade... etc. Such things cannot be assessed by looking at this junk out of the box brand new.
Excellent point, I have experienced this myself and you are correct. 👍🏻🙂
Darn I ordered the 12 speed SRX 😂
I’m sure it will be fine. 🙂👍🏻
"Sram and Shimano sell 12 speed in electronic only"... Eh... no they don´t. They´re also available in mechanical.
When I made the video it was only available in electronic. 🙂
Ok sensa 12 speed sucks …but you cannot say that this problem is due to mechanical 12 speed in general, I have a mechanical campy ekar 13 speed and it shifts incredibly well. I think the problema is simply the low quality and the bad engineering of chinese sensa group.
Shimano's and SRAM's mechanical rear derailleurs have indexed barrel adjusters (I think Sensah has the same too), so I think this might also play a part in not being able to really fine-tune the indexing.
Yes you could be right about that, I can’t comment on Campy because I have never even seen the 12/13 speed. That’s why I only spoke about SRAM/Shimano, it seems to me that one main reason for moving to electronic derailleurs was the simple and cheaper solution to the 12 speed system. I bet campy worked much harder on coming up with a mechanical fix that probably cost the company a lot more in long run. (I don’t even know anyone who could afford Campy 12/13? You must be a millionaire! Can we be friends! 🤣) But that’s Campy for you, they don’t think about maximum profits all the time, they think about maximum quality and that unfortunately is why they aren’t as successful on the mass market.
Great comment! Thank you!
@@reginaldscot165 I’m not a millionaire, sorry 🙂 … mechanical campy (record) is less expensive than new Shimano 105 … I think the point is component manufacturing quality and tolerances and quality of the cables, given that a set of campy 12/13 speed cables costs 100 €. As far as I know campy released mechanical 12 speed before elctric 12 speed and they don’t have an electric 13 speed at all
They’re all cheap Chinese or Taiwanese carbon frames just stick a big name on them and charge what you want
90% of stuff is made in China now, the trick is knowing what’s the good and bad stuff.
Do you have Hitler's mustache?
Yes I stole it in 1939 when he wasn’t looking.