PAYDAY 3's Armored Identity Crisis
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- There is lots to be said about Payday 3's armor system. Here's John's latest take on it.
Written and edited by John: / tuffcooke_
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MarioInATopHat's Clip: • MarioinATopHat: Payday... - Ігри
You can come for me, but stay away from my bathroom.
doing the edging challenge again i assume 😳
It never ceases to blow my mind when it's brought up that they thought standing in circles was an upgrade to the drill
I enjoyed the drilling… I do not enjoy standing in those fucking circles…. :/
It's always stupid how stubborn devs can be when the entire playerbase screams at them that they are wrong and yet they refuse to listen.
Armor-gating and armor-tanking were key aspects of high-difficulty play in PD2. Having rechargeable armor determined the pacing of the game, as one would only engage in gunfights and challenge sightlines while having armor up. The armor system of PD2 provided a safety net that allowed players to, well... make plays and/or mistakes. Turning armor into a secondary health bar slows the game down; no longer can you just brush off damage taken. Every hit brings you one step closer to going down, which, as you mentioned, punishes players for staying in a heist for an extended period of time. The new system is unfun on its own, but certain playstyles are no longer possible because of it. Not that you'd be able to recreate them in PD3, seeing as there are no perk decks. This has brought down the skill ceiling by a considerable amount, making the endgame less enjoyable.
Hit the nail on the head.
I have strong doubts that the game was designed to have this "death by a thousand cuts" attrition gameplay from the onset. Everything seems to suggest that this direction was settled on late in development, and I'm inclined to believe it given the contradictory design choices and scrapped mechanics datamined from the technical Beta. Instead of just recognizing that it wasn't working out, they doubled down on it and slapped band-aid fixes on top. Now it's more apparent than ever that the current foundation for the game is barely holding together, if at all.
Anarchist in 2 was so much fun, because it was insane survivability that was in your hands to maintain. It wasn't free, you had to engage with the systems and pay attention to armor gate properly. In 3 you have no agency.
Also, the timer respawns was the biggest question mark I had with 3. If you run out of resources it's often better to go into custody (yes my dead lifeless body is in "custody", ok). The last time I played gold and sharke, I went into custody like 5 times and we still made it out just fine.
A good start would be to finally release the revamp of the infamy point payouts so that playing proper loud is actually beneficial in any way. At the moment, playing loud in general is a punishment.
Couldn't agree more with your comments on this. Who at Starbreeze thought that it would be a good idea to redesign core components of the Payday experience? It almost feels like PD3 was made by a completely different team to the ones who made PD2. Stealth was a good upgrade, everything else was bad and detrimental to the player experience.
This adds up, considering that many of the people around for making PD2 moved over to 10 Chambers. I am more interested in seeing their indev game Den of Wolves, which is supposedly Payday but not Payday by the devs of PDTH & PD2.
it feels so good to be finally understood regarding payday 2 and 3, and it comes from such a 'small' channel, im very glad i was recommended this video, i love your analysis of the topic
It's a great observation that 3's armor system essentially turned an "allowed failures" meter into what instead feels like an "allowed fun" meter. Sums up the entire issue.
What really gets me is that death by a thousand cuts is inherently very time-based. How do you keep a system that _only_ works on attrition balanced and engaging between a 5 minute map and a 25 minute map? The Heist and 2 had elements of attrition that kicked in if you made big screwups, but gave you a baseline to always work with.
When attrition affects your entire healthbar, one cop shooting you can mean either instant death, or the ability to go make a sandwich, come back, and find yourself still alive. There's no consistent engagement or agency factor in each gunfight. The overall war needs to replace raw shooting in fun factor, but how can it do that in a balanced way in a variety of different heists?
Payday 3 claimed the answer was standardising every heist to a Payday: The Heist esque length, but that was, cue the Jonathan Frakes clips, a total fabrication, it never happened.
This has gotten quite long, I am not sorry. That being said youtube does have a thing against long comments so hopefully it doesn't take to this one too poorly.
I don't think completely 180ing the armour system into a payday 2 "wait x seconds, armour comes back" style system has to be the way to fix payday 3's issues, nor am I sure it's the best way. I think theres still merit to the way payday 3 implemented its armour mechanic, if there wasn't there'd be 0 people playing it not 500 and there wouldnt be people in the comments here saying they like payday 3s system more. Admitedly, I don't think leaving it for the 500 people who enjoy it more is a good idea if it comes at the expense of thousands of other people on the inverse. I just think theres more creative avenues you could take to make a best of both worlds scenario.
First of all, as far as I'm concerned you are right in saying that the current armour system is a poorly implemented "punish you for doing dumb stuff with permenant damage" mechanic. What I then think of as a solution is why is the armour bar(s) a slowly ticking down timer to get to your fleshy weak health bar when we can go straight to the real thing? We can do it to the cops, the grenedier and cloaker can do it to us, why not open the flood gates for all the specials. You can have all the armour work as adaptive armour now, and all the people who like attrition have attrition. I think it works for people who don't either as its not too detached from the payday 2 way of doing things (your health bar doesn't recharge in payday 2... usually). If you have armour, most primary attacks, i.e. ones from a gun, effectively can't hurt you so they can keep on coming but if specials are slowly chipping away at your health then eventually you'll drop down, unless you use a medkit or first aid of course (detaches you from the armour bag without needing le funny overheal). It'd be pretty easy to implement it into the specials too, taser is electricuting you the techie can have AP bullets that do armour and health damage like the players AP guns and the bulldozer... we'll he doesn't really need it. It'd add more threat to these enemies, now all of a second their 5 seconds being alive actually meant something, if you don't want to have things like the taser stun be too agressive there can be a 1 or 2 second grace period before the damage starts.
I think theres other things you could do to spice up the armour system. Here's just a few of my ideas:
1. Take a page out of plate ups book, have kills decrease the cooldown of your armour regenerating. I don't think theres enough raw numbers for the cops to turn this into a mindless mowing simulator, I'd argue a cop taking about a second off the cooldown regardless of which one youre wearing would be a good amount. Want more armour? Go ahead, you gotta kill twice the cops to instantly refill your armour though. I've thought about doubling the cooldown for armours and then also double the cooldown reduction from killing, to make the system more active as now you HAVE to kill cops to keep going instead of it just making you stronger.
2. Make adaptive the norm rather then the exception. I talked about this before in the health section, I don't think it'll break the game and if it does just tweak the cops damage a bit. If more people enjoy it this way then more people enjoy it this way, simple as, and for those that don't I dont think you have to remove it but you might want to bump up the resistance from it if youre bumping up the cop damage. With stacked bars its not like adaptive will bring them all back anyway, if you lose one its gone. You could experiment with having one mega bar, like one 200-300 armour point bar. I can't ever fully predict how these will shape the game, and I do know if theres something overpowered then people will naturally gravitate towards it and only it, that's the second law of gaming or something, so I wouldn't want it to overshadow the other options but I don't think it hurts to experiment with Payday 3 in its current state in order to have a more concrete understanding of what does and doesn't work in the future. A bit too late for having the experiment phase? Maybe, but better late then never.
3. For those that really cant stomache losing their armour chunk. New armour type: One bar, purple, once it's gone it will come back in 20 seconds no matter what. Reminder that you can still technically armour gate one shot in the current armour implementation. Perfect for health builds, no armour bad needed, As close you can get to PD2 without really affecting PD3s pacing.
I have other ideas related to health and armour in terms of skills, but this isn't a video about skills so I don't think its worth wasting everyones time about skills. I woulda just said stuff like what if we slapped on one skill (not line) that starts regenning your armour chunk after a time limit, you get the point.
Some of my concluding thoughts, there is nothing wrong with a game changing and trying new things with a franchise. I know you know that, I don't think every payday fan knows that or even wants to consider the fact. Learning from the past is good, glueing yourself to it is not. Trying to change the underlying mechanics of payday 2 in making payday 3 did not ruin the game, it was a lack of testing and a lack of proactiveness to not adapt after making said changes. The game should have had a much longer beta period, we coulda had this talk without anyone complaining because everyone knows a beta isn't a final product. Having armour chunks that go away forever and therefore restict the amount of time you are in a heist for is a system that can work, removing (mostly) armour gating and replacing it with a much more substantial armour bar can work. It needed time in the oven which it never got, much like the mirror mechanic of armour penetration never had enough time in the oven to make high dps/low AP weapons work.
I'm tired of people going greed, greed, greed or give me back payday 2 please, I am physically incapable of loading up the copy of payday 2 that I have spent a surplus of US$200 I need to spend another 200 dollars on it. I've had to take time off payday 3, partially because of work commitments but mostly because I don't have any motivation to grind levels and there's other games both I and my friends would rather be playing, but that doesn't mean payday 3 should be forced back into payday 2's shadows to become payday 2 unreal engine 5 (or 4 I guess), the game should experiment off the original formula to create something new that has its own merits over payday 2. There's a time and place for iterative improvements, payday 2 was a psuedo-live service game and does not need that.
I want to hear from the group of people who still really like payday 3 here as well as the people who don't, I am genuinly curious how people would react if these changes I'm proposing we're added overnight (doubt starbreeze is gonna seek out some Brit from random payday video comment sections though ahahaha). I don't want to remake payday 2 but I do want payday 2 players to play payday 3, and I want to have a game that tried something new in the day and age of the "remake" meta as I like to call it, you all know what I mean.
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I hope starbreeze sees/saw your video. You laid it all out very well and have a lot of great points.
I miss drills, C4, and saws. I miss having fun playing Payday.
Exactly. Damn I alsk want my C4 and saw back😢
last time i had fun was when payday 2 didnt have 500000+ dlcs
Agreed mate
I'm commenting only 5 mins into the video here, but you did mention how having a limited resource in an attrition based shooter is fine so it got me thinking again
Id like to point out ammo was the central limited resource in pd2 outside of health/downs.
They basically killed that part of the meta as the game evolved and the playerbase increased. I wonder why they got rid of that limited fun meter...
I hate how games have become so similar to Warzone. Warzone is just an objectively bad game. But every other game wants to become Warzone by copying the "Modern Warfare" style of HUD, armor, and weaponry. Why is the sequel to Payday 2 trying so hard to not be Payday 2?
This comment section proves, that Payday community is what's preventing Payday 3 from getting good.
Payday 3 does almost everything worse then it's predecessor, it's no wonder Payday 3 is sub 1k players all the time and Payday 2 is always at least at 10k players and usually above 20k or even 30k players.
If PD3 copy and pasted PD2s mechanics it would be a much better game.
They had one job, port payday 2 to unreal engine and bring more content, in the process they fumbled the bag by getting to caught up in "trying to innovate mechanics that nobody asked to be innovated" and now they refuse to acknowlegde that it's bad it would be too much work to remake all of the systems in the game. I mean it's either that or payday 3 won't even go past 2024. Just look at the player numbers and compare it to their older game, it's like a sick joke at this point. What type of brainiac throught that spending more time in game is bad so we need to punish the player. What type of genius sat down and designed a extremely simple and boring challenge system while also throwing away year's of data collected in two past sucessfull game launches. But anyway guys we are so back 👊😎. . . . . Right?
I couldn't agree more with a video.
The game just copied elements from other successful games (armor, HUD, UI/UX) but completely ignored Payday 2. Insane.
Alright, let me give some ideas to possibly fix this. Adernaline was able to make the balance of the game a complete 180, so, what about a new perk deck. A Dodge is in a payday 3, but only as a shadow of it's former self. This is the return of the king.
Marauder.
Ment to be THE dodge tree. The build mostly focuses around keeping your rush stacks topped up. It favors a hyper aggressive gameplay that needs to be sustained.
Teir 1
Marauder: Killing 10 (5 when aced) enemies in rapid sucession grants Rush, if you have Rush, this resets the duration of the Rush Stack. Reduces Sprint-to-Fire time, by 50% (75% if aced)
Teir 2
Low Blow: Gain a crit chance equal to the precentage duration of a Rush stack. Crits deal 2x (3x if aced) damage. (Aced: passive 25% chance to crit, it does not stack with this skill's effect.)
Teir 3
Second Wind: On Armor plate break, gain Rush, If you already have Rush, gain 10 (20 if aced) seconds of invincibility.
Teir 4
Adernaline Junkie: Gain dodge equal to the precentage duaration of your rush stack. (You get a passive 25% chance to dodge if you ace it, doesn't stack with the main effect of the skill.)
Teir 5
Untouchable: After dodging an attack, regain the Trauma equal to the trauma that attack would have Inflicted. If aced, the tramua regained stacks. Say, two cops fire at you for what would be 20 trauma damage each and you dodge both cop's shots, the first heals 20, then the second heals 40. This continues until you get hit, wherein the process is reset.
Teir 7
Traction: Gain Rush after sprinting for 20 (10 if aced) seconds.
The point behind Adrenaline Junkie and Low Blow is that you will rarely have 100% duration remaining 100% of the time. While Armor is a bit more slow and methodical, Dodge NEEDS to get into the thick of it to keep it running. Armor is a Death by a thousand cuts, Dodge is bitting off more than you can chew.
I think it would be fairly easy to buff the cops spawn rate, heath and armor (including specials) on Very Hard and Overkill to compensate for the recent change to player armor... It may take a little time to get the balancing in line, but how hard could it be? Start out at increasing the cops stats/Re spawns at 5-10% incrimemts, until the game has better balance. How hard could that be?
lets reintroduce jules again huh
Let's also add 3 more difficulties and still not change the armour system because we stoopid
Increase cop spawns is a terrible idea. It really ruined the immersion of Payday 2 with the hundreds of cops it had at the screen, with half of them just standing around because the game couldn't keep up.
2:37 payday 2 wasnt a arcade shooter
it got ruined into becoming one play launch day payday 2 its exact same as this ffs
1/10 ragebait
@@creeper4599 "i disagree so its ragebait" mentality is so stupid
@@czarnakoza9697 no your take is just shitty lol
@@czarnakoza9697 your take just isn't true
@@creeper4599 play launch day pd2
im sorry to sound toxic but this is a genuine skill issue. payday 2 was boring as flip and the devs recognized that. they made a game thats fun and engaging, as well as making you juggle resources as you try and perform the perfect heist (similar to doom eternals resource based flow) and ppl shit on it because its not "shut your brain off simulator" anymore. a sequel is more than allowed to be different than its predecessor.
but yeah the UI and the basic features lacking pissed me off. that's inexcusable.
PAYDAY 3 does not have resource juggling because it only stresses one resource.
You don't have to worry about ammo because ammo pickup rates are high (relative to the shots required to kill most enemies), ammo drops are client-sided (so there is no need to coordinate picking up ammo with teammates), and skills remove the need to even walk over to the ammo drops.
You don't have to worry about health because it does not take damage until your armor is broken (outside of exceptions like the Taser and Cloaker).
Thus the only resource that is stressed is armor, which effectively acts as a second health bar that can take more damage. Refilling this resource isn't engaging; you either use an Armor Bag (you can bring a whopping 12 charges across 2 bags) or Repair Kits (which are trivial to stock up on with hostage skills). Or you can just use Adaptive Armor which turns the game into a "shut your brain off simulator" with the right skills.
PAYDAY: The Heist, while also not a game about juggling resources, understood that it was more engaging and fun to stress ammo instead of health/armor. You need ammo to kill enemies so you can push towards objectives or defend them. Ammo pickup rates in PDTH were varied enough to the point where staying ammo neutral or positive required good accuracy and a bit of luck. Even then, special enemies would inevitably drain your ammo due to their large health pools. Outside of Ammo Bags, restoring ammo required you to actually move over to the ammo drop (which wasn't client-sided), which in turn could expose you to enemy fire and lead to permanent health damage if you overextended. These ammo drops were also not client-sided, which necessitated some coordination between teammates when doing ammo runs.
PAYDAY 3 went in the entirely wrong direction trying to stress a resource you need as a buffer against hitscan enemies, rather than stressing a resource that can put you in tough situations.
@@Lolnoobwut1You know that something such as opinions exist, right?
@@JaNieWie While my response does include parts of my own opinion, it's not an opinion that the game isn't about resource juggling. It's a fact.
@@Lolnoobwut1 you're talking to me with such a negative tone. I don't even want to talk with these people, so leave me alone.
@@JaNieWie I apologize for being impolite, but I hope you understand that assuming I don't know what an opinion is isn't very polite either.