Can you please make a video about your thoughts on black-bordered un-cards? I hate it and suspect you're not for it either, and I would really like to see more backlash against it, so that WotC changes their stance on making silly and Sci-Fi cards legal in a Fantasy card game.
@@UninvitedGhost The problem with backlash against it is that there are probably a lot of people like me who love it, who have drafted previous Un sets only to have a collection of silver bordered cards we can't play without a rule 0 conversation. I'm looking forward to hopefully (pandemic allowing it) drafting Unfinity and then putting cards that don't break Magic into my Commander decks without having to ask permission.
ok professor please dont hate me but when you got into the star wars topic i could not stop laughing, for a a good 5/6 minutes, had to rewind the video so i could pay propper attention coz i kept losing it and laughing over you guys talking. im very sorry x
I loved the editing at Vince's confusion and frustration trying to explain that a Wookie and an Ewok are different creatures. It almost turned into a "who's on first " skit and I had a good chuckle. Thanks for the video Vince and Brian! (It was also funny that the Prof commented on his confusion why people kept calling him Brian).
@@joep1029 one would hope so… but I got the feeling that it was closer to “What’s the difference between Pokémon and Digimon? They both evolve.” type of thing.
Lets be honest. If you are buying a mechanically unique Secret Lair card that will be reprinted in The List in 6 months, you will most likely receive them around the same time that The List versions are going on sale.
@@KillinTime2792 mine is stuck in customs, the waiting time there plus the ineptitude of the mexican mail system... yup, gonna get them in january or february
I have returned with an update. after ordering the phyrexian praetors in foil and non foil, i now have non foil praetors and non-foil artist series:mark poole. Waited 5 months for this garbage, time to immediately move to force since that's all these people seem to respond to.
@Jojoforpres Wait till you have to explain to your kids why you're wearing those ugly skinny stuff that's been out of fashion for the last 20 years by that point.
My gripe about the 'Print on the List' is that it dilutes so many of the slots making the 'meaningful reprint' capacity of The List will be EVEN worse.
This is my problem. The Stranger Things cards don't interest me even as in universe magic cards so now the fact that they are appearing so frequently in set boosters makes the list that much worse.
I mean the list isn't and will never be a place for *meaningful* reprints, it doesn't churn out enough cards for that. And if I pull a rare or mythic with an interesting design that I could at least sell for like two bucks instead of the third Conspiracy or Game-Trail Changeling, I consider that an upgrade
The 6 month "exclusivity" doesn't bother me too much when you realize that it's the same amount of time you're waiting for your secret lair to come in the mail.
Wouldn't surprise me if that's why they gave it that 6 month "exclusivity". Then they don't risk people who bought the secret lairs complaining that other people got those cards with the new mechanics before their lair arrived.
I am fine with someone else paying a premium for the community at large to find out how good these cards are or aren't. And if they turn out to be good, proxying them until they release in the $5 boosters.
I would actually watch a video of the Prof trying to retell The Original Trilogy as he perceives them from pop-culture references or names inclinations. That would be like modern time myths, where they used to rehash characters and actions, change form and blend into each other.
This entire conversation was built off a foundation of how secret lairs work that I wish was not there. I know I'm in the minority here, but I really wish magic had stayed in the realm of allegory toward other IPs. An easy example is Zendikar being an allegory to adventuring in DnD. I wish instead of literally printing Gandalf, they stayed in allegory and it was something we all winked at knowing "this white mage" is magic's allegory for Gandalf and so on. But the Pandora's box I was afraid of going near is already open and like I say all the time now, Magic is just the TCG equivalent of Fortnite. (And the Fornite secret lair doesn't help anything)
@@caleb.pepper Make it 3, getting engrossed into my imagination about what is happening in a game with characters is really fun with magic lore, then here comes fishstick out of nowhere taking me out of the experience.
Honestly I'm kinda ambivalent, generally not a fan but I don't care that much. However, I'm absofuckinglutely salty that we're getting a LotR set after years of Lorwyn getting cucked (I know they're not strictly 1:1, but still).
Well prof if you're interested in Warhammer, I will say that we're in need of somebody who makes product reviews at the standard that you do. Great episode :)
I feel like Wizards in the Walking Dead Secret Lair article kept hammering away that Magic is a *SYSTEM,* one that you can use to slot in other IPs (as we see now with things like Lord of the Rings and Street Fighter). I wouldn't be surprised if Hasbro decided to make Magic just be their go-to "card game" for their various brands. Why bother developing a unique Transformers, GI Joe, My Little Pony, or Barbie card game when you can put those IPs into the Magic: The Gathering "system." All black-border of course, to make sure that these get proper attention.
My late counter-argument to this is that a game's system should reflect the thing it is simulating. Android: Netrunner's mechanics aren't the same as Magic: the Gathering's because a lone hacker trying to be a thorn in the side of a colossal corporation shouldn't feel the same as a mage drawing magic from leylines to combat a peer. Sure you could use one system for both, but the flavour of the game would suffer for it.
we'll still refuse to play with people that play completely different IP decks tho, it's just not fun to have your D&D themed magic-battle be interrupted by the idiot playing his Fortnite-Transformers combo deck.
Prof: I know about Start Wars that there's a Darth Vader and one of the main heroes is a furry Vince: Oh god no... This whole conversation was comedy gold, not gonna lie.
I’ll say I’m a big fan of the new editing that went into this episode. I’m sure that it is a bit more work for your production folks, but I think those little moments near the end that make these videos just that much more enjoyable to watch.
That format would be terrible unless they print a lot more utility cards. You need things like removal and deck manipulation; it can't just be a big stack of legendaries. Maybe if they make more UB full decks that have these kinds of staple cards in them. If that happens, I think a UB only format is pretty inevitable. Whether it would be popular or not is a totally different question.
Universes beyond is the sort of thing where I don't really object to any one thing I just don't want to end up in a place where there is so much spillover that a commander game feels more like a pop-culture mashup. That is where I really don't want to end up at and every new universe, even the one's I'm looking forward to, are one more step towards that point.
I finally figured out what was weird to me about Universes Beyond - they don't register as Magic cards in my subconscious. I think it dates back to the Grimlock and Twilight Sparkle cards. They printed them and then said "But they're not real magic cards, obviously. This one says 'Convert a Transformers® toy'. This one uses the clause 'everypony wins the game'". Much like the holiday/WOTC employee cards before them. When they print "Grimlock, Dinobot Leader" as a fake card (for advertising purposes), then print "Rick, Steadfast Leader" as a real card (for advertising purposes) it's just going to feel fake. If you asked me what Rick's ability does my first guess is something like "Put X counters on target creature, where X is your favorite season of Zombieland®". (I think it's also why the whole D&D set felt like an un-set, but that's a whole tangent)
Ooh I totally get that, and I think I feel that way as well. It really doesn’t help that dice rolling was a big mechanic in the DnD set, and that’s been a recurring mechanic in for Un-sets
If you read MaRo article about Unfinity, he said that: "Universes Beyond had started using the security stamp to express information about the card (normal Magic cards have an oval security stamp, while Universes Beyond cards have a triangle). What if we used the security stamp to indicate what silver border used to indicate? " So, in my opinion we can just take UB holostamp as an indication that these are not "real" Magic card. And like it was done with Silver Border cards, decide with our group if we allow these cards in our decks. In other words, treat UB holostamp the same way as if they were silverborder.
I've seen links to Dune-inspired EDH decks with Hazezon that really flavorful. I know we had Amonkhet, but would like to explore another desert plane or go to where Hazezon lives.
The very first magic expansion, Arabian Nights, was basically UB and retroactively set on the plane of Rabiah. MaRo has said that it would require a 'Major Miracle' to return to Rabiah, but compared to WH40K and the like, it seems more 'magic' than those other things like Fortnite.
Vince and Prof chatting about Warhammer during this episode makes me really want a "Vince Introduces Prof to Black Library/Warhammer Lore" show/series. It'd be really interesting to get an 'outside' opinion on the lore, especially from someone like the Professor
The thing is though, "guns" or whatever pieces of technology that resemble firearms, have been depicted already in MtG's past. The alchemists in Innestrad used "geistthrowers", which were spirit fueled flamethrower, Izzet shock troopers used some sort of resource powered portable cannon, and even in Portal 2, one of the kingdoms had literal flintlock firearms. "Magic Adjacent" just isn't an appropriate standard to parallel IP themes deemed Universes Beyond compatability because magic in its over 25 years of existence flirted with many ideas within its creative expression.
Exactly. Doomcannon, charbelcher, goblin sharpshooter, predator flagship... MtG through its many themes and has demonstrated the denizens of some planes may be innovative or inventive enough to take the technical leap and improvise technologies that are not magic in nature but simply engineered for long range combat.
The convention exclusive Transformers mtg cards were a cool concept (even if their means of transforming were unorthodox). I could easily see them going back to it and coming up with a more black-bordered means of transforming the cards.
FFG is pretty heavy into the Game of Thrones license, so I'd be a little surprised if that license were available, but I would've said the same thing about Lord of the Rings. Critical Role seems like a decent possibility for the same reasons you mentioned for Rick and Morty. The Witcher is an interesting possibility, Netflix doesn't own the license, but they do make a show off of it. I agree on Dune. Maybe they can get that done for the second movie.
Similarly, Universus / UFS was pretty hyped about their Cowboy Bebop set. Who knows what rights are actually where, but possible they have some exclusivity agreement.
Some of this is aged based I think. I'm closer to prof, played revised in junior high, what magic IS is very defined to me. For younger players I don't think they care as much.
Really interesting discourse on 40k. It's a super deep world, and some of the novels are really good - Dan Abnett in particular writes well. I can definitely see the Prof's view of keeping Magic Magic, but I also see the desire of bringing more people into Magic with extra content. Hopefully the R&D department are in fact watching and pick up on some of the ideas you have.
My dream "out there" universe is for us to get a slivers set in the skin of Ridley Scott's 'Alien'. a slither overlord in the skin of an alien mother would be pretty sweet and would definitely satisfy the nerd in me.
@@BlackliteLust Lol, true. Nor should they. They used to be my favorite developer. What a fall from grace. I knew it was coming the second they shook hands with Activision. But I’ll always have a soft spot for those Hydralisks…
What killed the Transformers ccg (this newest one) is they set themselves up for failure by putting it on a 3 month release schedule! Brand new product and as a magic player i could barely keep up and each set was Highly parasitic so they played poorly as a unified game. The base framework for the game was solid though and fun and balanced!
If we're talking about potential Hasbro secret lairs. I would love if they did one themed around the game Clue. Seems pretty easy to do and there are plenty of characters in MTG lore that they could choose from to be each of the characters from the game. And of course, new clue tokens and use of the investigate mechanic. As for something that makes sense for them to do, I would say with Kamigawa Neon Dynasty coming out, they should do a Promare secret lair since it is a Japanese anime that lines up nicely with the overall aesthetic of the plane's current environment.
How would you feel about a secret lair mystery packs. That have cards from the year or more pior five random cards and a special token for somewhere around the cost of collector booster packs
Having played magic for almost 25 years it is kind of hard to not be a purist. But the fact that it exists as a multiverse means they can totally make worlds based around science and technology. They already laid the first stones with kaladesh.
In kaladesh it was still a semi-reniassance society outside of the artificery, and the artifact technology is all based on magic. It doesn't make sense, with planeswalkers, to have societies with a signicantly higher tech level than others that doesn't protect said tech, because technology would spread... It's kinda like how guns and gunpowder were originally created in China, but made their way to Europe and the Middle East within 100-200 years (which is a really short timespan historically)
As a new player of magic (started around 5 years ago and recently really got into it this year) i do not mind the secret lair stuff, even if it didn't get a magic skin. But of they're going to make two versions of each card they need to have an easy identifier. My favorite card game, the Digimon tcg, fixes this issue by giving each card a serial number and you can't have more than 4 of each serial in your deck unless otherwise stated on the card.
You know, this has been really bumming me out; nothing about new releases gets me excited anymore, and it's been months since I've looked at a spoiler. I can't imagine a future where Magic becomes exciting again. Maybe I should check out Flesh & Blood 🤷
56:00 They drove the TCG into the ground with 9 sets in 1 year, and certain decks in the first batch were so good that no matter how they did other deck types or themes, the insecticons and jets were the meta no matter what.
I think prof is very right with his acceptance of the concept that while aesthetics can be limited or exclusive, mechanics shouldn't be, mechanics should be affordable and available. I would go further and say that all mtg cards should have a default art, which is print on demand and purchasable directly from wotc, at a fixed rate per card which is not related to power level or mechanical desirability.
The last five years have been so weird for me as an enfranchised player who's been loving this game since... 96? I'd moved countries in 2016, left my playgroups behind, have never been able to find a solid new one since, and that was when my method for interacting with the hobby transitioned to discovering content creators like yourself, which has been nothing short of a godsend. Heck I am so happy to have signed on to the patreon when you were signing Syggs, I adore my copy. But between now and then, also as i've had so few people to play with, and as i've spent so much time discovering so much more about how magic has evolved through the likes of yourself, kenobi, etc, it's really shifted how I want to engage with magic on a physical level moving forward, even if I had a solid playgroup now. With the state of things, how much is released, how cynically and greedily motivated the mothership has become, and how limited my budget is, i've effectively had to take advantage of their yearly announcements to plan my engagement, and that plan is now: 1. Is the product touching on old mtg lore / artists? 2. Does it emotionally resonate with me? 3. Does it do either of those things better than other potential products this year that may do the same? There's just so much coming out in 2022 that i'm pretty much only going to be engaging in The Brothers War, most likely. I just can't allow myself to be hyped for the other sets because i know i wont have the time, funds, or energy to give to all of it, it's just impossible. But what i've noticed is, the more I allow for that attitude to sink in, the happier i've become about it. I can't wait to hear all about how awesome the new kamigawa set is, or new capenna for that matter, and i'm sure there'll be a splatter of secret lairs that entice and are fun for lots of people, and that's cool! But i'm out. I want to be voting with my wallet to some degree, and I never needed to have cards from every set to feel relevant or like it was required in order to have fun, and that mode of thinking seems more important now than ever with the way things are going. Thanks for these podcasts and everything you do, it's always a pleasure to sit down with a cup of coffee and enjoy your talks. Have a great rest of the year!
The monopoly bit sort of touches on something I've considered in regards to Universes Beyond: That they're considering Magic as a game system applicable to different properties. I forget their names but I know other games have done it, where the rules are the same but you can have Batman cards or Inuyasha ones or whatever all duking it out. Universes Beyond is them thinking maybe they can do that, but not wanting to commit. Because while they could just say "Here's a Lord of the Rings set for those fans, go ahead and play with them", it'd be awkward to buy into a card game like that without any assurance of support. So while they're shuffling their feet, they're going "It's okay, you can play those cards with all these established formats too!" If they just committed, said "Hey, we're making a separate line of cards that works basically the same as Magic, so if you wanted to you could mix them up but we're not forcing you", things would've gone *so* much better. But they don't want to commit just yet, thus we're here.
Feel like you guys totally missed the idea of a witcher themed secret lair. Because that universe is rich with creatures, characters relics and locations.
Witcher is one of those thing I'd actually really like an entire UB set for like lord of the rings. I think SL is good for smaller UBs where you've only got a small number of possible themes and cards but it feels limiting for bigger IPs cause there's just so much to look at.
There are a few crossovers I would genuinely be excited for but never in my 12 years of playing have I said man this game would be better if it had Bayonetta/Dante in it, or jojo's or whatever your favorite IP is. Im personally of the belief that magic should stay magic but WOTC obviously feels like that's leaving money on the table
Dresden Files secret lair? I really like that series, and it fits so well. The only flaw is that there's not much to gain from a crossover. It's just not "iconic" enough
They’re actually everywhere! I’m on a quest to collect all them and its actually really hard. There’s a lot of goblin gunners, all nightstalkers have them, they show up on vehicles, and there’s plenty of humans that have them as well
I would love to see a "Legend of Zelda" themed set for universes beyond. It would definitely sell and it probably wouldn't feel very out of place within MtG.
If you read MaRo article about Unfinity, he said that: "Universes Beyond had started using the security stamp to express information about the card (normal Magic cards have an oval security stamp, while Universes Beyond cards have a triangle). What if we used the security stamp to indicate what silver border used to indicate? " So, in my opinion we can just take UB holostamp as an indication that these are not "real" Magic card. And like it was done with Silver Border cards, decide with our group if we allow these cards in our decks.
Vince delivers an unforgettable monologue about eating his opponent's cards. Prof repeatedly talks about negging, Vince remains clueless. Prof: I think you just gave them a product idea... Vince: Yeahhh... :) Vince repeatedly explains the difference between ewoks and wookies, Prof remains clueless. Best video yet.
Man has the professor really lived in such a hole about star wars that he doesnt know about Chewbacca being a wookie and ewoks? Or is he just fucking with us?
I picture a Magic Monopoly game being like Explorers of Ixalan, where it comes with its own decks (that somehow factor into advancing around the Monopoly board) and they stick a few solid reprints in there to get people to buy it.
i would love to see a CanLander Points system used in commander even if its just a way to grade power level of deck. "oh ive only got a 5 point deck with me i think your 25 point deck may be a little much"
I mean, we complain about access of these secret lair exclusives, but the insane price of a format staple Ragavan is $90 a piece because it's mythic. We don't want cards accessible, we want them to be part of the lottery for when boxes are opened.
I opened a Crimson Vow set box and I ended up with like five total list cards. Given, one was exquisite blood, but my point is the list is still not the solution
I know it's crazy but I would love to see them make more my little pony cards like that collection a couple years ago. I don't care if they're silver border either. I just want to be able to use the wincon on twilight sparkle someday
What I would LIKE to see out Secret Lairs are things like what they did with the Shock Lands, Snow Lands, Preators, that kind of stuff: stuff that's ALREADY in Magic, but basically just different art. Like what Vince said, skins (but MtG skins). For example, I would love to theme out the rest of the lands for one of my commander decks, with lands from the commanders plane. Or, maybe get cards with art from that plane. I know that these types of restrictions will NEVER be the only ones they do... But hey, that's what I want this product to be.
For me, I grew up enjoying collecting the different Monopolies that catered to my interests. I enjoy playing Monopoly, and getting to see locations from Fallout, Sonic, The Godfather, etc. always made me smile. If WotC can just keep it to skins, I think everyone will remain happy. But please don't do a Monopoly SL.
I don't like the world's beyond, they make magic nothing more than a setting to me. I think wizards needs to slow down, really build interesting and unique planes and build them up in house. Taking things from pop culture and slapping them on a mtg card feels wrong.
The reason we’re at where we’re at with secret lairs and that type of thing is because 5-7 ish years ago when Mark Rosewater was just a deb who worked on unsets and that type of thing which at the time WAS the equivalent of beta testing mechanics and such. He stated on one or both the episodes of game knights where unsets were used that “in 5-10 years I hope these types of cards and mechanics will see play in black boarder magic” that’s paraphrased from memory but point remains that from those episodes we saw Mutate YEARS before mutate was a thing and we saw heavy dice rolling based mechanics WAY before we got the DND themed set. Then rosewater became head developer and now is utilizing secret lairs and differing sets to put those mechanics he developed years ago into magic even tho wizards knows some unset mechanics are fine in moderation and most aren’t unless that’s what we’ve agreed to (as in hey we’re playing unsets we know it’ll be whacky) but now we have forever in black boarder magic mechanics that are typically only fun to interact with once in a while whether you’re piloting a deck that has it or playing against it. Like I REALLY personally dislike mutate and dice rolling to determine what cards actually do or don’t do magic already had A LOT of mechanics that could and would make it hard to keep track of creatures abilities and power toughness levels but with those mechanics it’s worse and much harder
If you are dumb enough to gamble away your life savings - you should. People like that should not be allowed to have anything in the first place. You may call it "stupidity tax".
I believe a Final Fantasy Secret Lair would be really cool. The MMO is really picking up steam and the series has a multitude of characters, items, themes to be used. Also it fits the fantasy theme of MTG!
Is It Better To Have Powerful But Broken Sets Or Weak But Balanced? Our thoughts: ua-cam.com/video/NLmffj6NN1Y/v-deo.html
Can you please make a video about your thoughts on black-bordered un-cards? I hate it and suspect you're not for it either, and I would really like to see more backlash against it, so that WotC changes their stance on making silly and Sci-Fi cards legal in a Fantasy card game.
@@UninvitedGhost The problem with backlash against it is that there are probably a lot of people like me who love it, who have drafted previous Un sets only to have a collection of silver bordered cards we can't play without a rule 0 conversation. I'm looking forward to hopefully (pandemic allowing it) drafting Unfinity and then putting cards that don't break Magic into my Commander decks without having to ask permission.
@@TabbyLavalampif I was in the minority and your opinion was in the majority, I wouldn’t have said anything.
ok professor please dont hate me but when you got into the star wars topic i could not stop laughing, for a a good 5/6 minutes, had to rewind the video so i could pay propper attention coz i kept losing it and laughing over you guys talking.
im very sorry x
Vince : it cannot get any worse. WOTC : get our new secret layer BTS, your favorite popstars on a card.
I don't think Vince quite understands how the "devour" keyword works.
It's just kicker.
It's just kicker
Yeah, he's confusing it with ingest
@@funnymandoafunny1810 but that's just kicker
No, I think he understands it *perfectly*
I loved the editing at Vince's confusion and frustration trying to explain that a Wookie and an Ewok are different creatures. It almost turned into a "who's on first " skit and I had a good chuckle. Thanks for the video Vince and Brian! (It was also funny that the Prof commented on his confusion why people kept calling him Brian).
I thought Prof. was doing some real next level trolling for a while there and then he revealed he really did not know what he was talking about.
@@joep1029 one would hope so… but I got the feeling that it was closer to “What’s the difference between Pokémon and Digimon? They both evolve.” type of thing.
@@nickintexas Sounds like a question I will ask
Lets be honest. If you are buying a mechanically unique Secret Lair card that will be reprinted in The List in 6 months, you will most likely receive them around the same time that The List versions are going on sale.
Yup ordered my phyrexian praetor secret lair mid-July, early December still don't have it.
@@KillinTime2792 mine is stuck in customs, the waiting time there plus the ineptitude of the mexican mail system... yup, gonna get them in january or february
@@TealVelvet yep still waiting for mine too
🤣🤣
I have returned with an update. after ordering the phyrexian praetors in foil and non foil, i now have non foil praetors and non-foil artist series:mark poole.
Waited 5 months for this garbage, time to immediately move to force since that's all these people seem to respond to.
"The Furby craze wasn't that long ago". It's been over twenty years, man.
They came back for a little bit like 4 years ago
@Jojoforpres Wait till you have to explain to your kids why you're wearing those ugly skinny stuff that's been out of fashion for the last 20 years by that point.
It came back a second time awhile back.
@@Oopsall
Really why?
@@benpearson49 couldn't tell you. They just popped back up for a bit around 2016-2018ish and disappeared just as quickly as they came.
"You probably known him better as Seth."
Nailed it.
Also better known as SaffronOlive lol
That's Fucking Funny
NOOOOOO!!!!!! IT'S ALL WROOOOONG!!!!!! TAKE IT BAAAAAACK!!!!!!
He left like 6 Os and enough vocal fry to flay your uvula off of “proooooooobably”
6/10
I just know him as "Seth, probably better known as Saffron Olive."
Ah yes, Chewbacca: King of the Ewoks.
Never change, Prof.
That will be in the next Secret Lair as a Gruul legendary
I mean I do know Vader blows up the Death Star so thats not nothing
Notice that Prof's deck is already missing - Vince didn't even wait until he won...
My gripe about the 'Print on the List' is that it dilutes so many of the slots making the 'meaningful reprint' capacity of The List will be EVEN worse.
Yep. The odds of getting any given non-UB card off of the list is cut in half.
This is my problem. The Stranger Things cards don't interest me even as in universe magic cards so now the fact that they are appearing so frequently in set boosters makes the list that much worse.
Or, just spitballing here, they could just take all the draft chaff off The List.
@@Dalenthas dear lord that would be nice
I mean the list isn't and will never be a place for *meaningful* reprints, it doesn't churn out enough cards for that. And if I pull a rare or mythic with an interesting design that I could at least sell for like two bucks instead of the third Conspiracy or Game-Trail Changeling, I consider that an upgrade
The 6 month "exclusivity" doesn't bother me too much when you realize that it's the same amount of time you're waiting for your secret lair to come in the mail.
Hahaha valid!
Wouldn't surprise me if that's why they gave it that 6 month "exclusivity". Then they don't risk people who bought the secret lairs complaining that other people got those cards with the new mechanics before their lair arrived.
@@ilikeapples1 it actually makes complete sense
I am fine with someone else paying a premium for the community at large to find out how good these cards are or aren't. And if they turn out to be good, proxying them until they release in the $5 boosters.
Lol
Wow, Dies to Removal coming almost as frequently as Secret Lair drops. Great intro guys
I would actually watch a video of the Prof trying to retell The Original Trilogy as he perceives them from pop-culture references or names inclinations. That would be like modern time myths, where they used to rehash characters and actions, change form and blend into each other.
A live with prof watching “a new hope” would be epic
I'd prefer to have him tell us the new star wars lore. Still will be more lore acqurate than sequels
"imagine liking doctor who so much, that it blinds you to the cultural osmosis of actual star wars"
well that totally didn't ever happen to me!
This entire conversation was built off a foundation of how secret lairs work that I wish was not there. I know I'm in the minority here, but I really wish magic had stayed in the realm of allegory toward other IPs. An easy example is Zendikar being an allegory to adventuring in DnD. I wish instead of literally printing Gandalf, they stayed in allegory and it was something we all winked at knowing "this white mage" is magic's allegory for Gandalf and so on. But the Pandora's box I was afraid of going near is already open and like I say all the time now, Magic is just the TCG equivalent of Fortnite. (And the Fornite secret lair doesn't help anything)
I agree with all of my heart. It just feels "off". :/
@@Hirschwolfywell that just makes two of us I guess
@@caleb.pepper Make it 3, getting engrossed into my imagination about what is happening in a game with characters is really fun with magic lore, then here comes fishstick out of nowhere taking me out of the experience.
100%. This stuff is crap. And a cash grab. But yay capitalism.
Honestly I'm kinda ambivalent, generally not a fan but I don't care that much. However, I'm absofuckinglutely salty that we're getting a LotR set after years of Lorwyn getting cucked (I know they're not strictly 1:1, but still).
Well prof if you're interested in Warhammer, I will say that we're in need of somebody who makes product reviews at the standard that you do. Great episode :)
Many Warhammer players ask the question, "is it worth it to sell my kidneys and buy a Forgeworld kit?"
A Happy Days secret lair. They could have Fonzie jumping a shark. It would be uber meta.
The diner could be a land, the jukebox is an activateable artifact, and of course there is Fonzarelli’s bike.
Very good suggestion, it would be great to see how many people would totally miss the joke
Omg, another episode so soon! Easily my favourite mtg podcast
Glad you enjoy it!
@@TolarianCommunityCollege it’s great having you two in the same room again
Same. I like the discussion about the game and company not just the products and cards like command zone does.
You mentioned a “Game” being attached to these cards? Haven’t heard of that before, but they sure are delicious!
One of the few "salty-esque" podcasts I'll willingly listen to, due to the fantastic hosts. Love you guys!
“He begins to cry as you place the top card of his library into your mouth.”
…the new “ante” card.
I feel like Wizards in the Walking Dead Secret Lair article kept hammering away that Magic is a *SYSTEM,* one that you can use to slot in other IPs (as we see now with things like Lord of the Rings and Street Fighter). I wouldn't be surprised if Hasbro decided to make Magic just be their go-to "card game" for their various brands. Why bother developing a unique Transformers, GI Joe, My Little Pony, or Barbie card game when you can put those IPs into the Magic: The Gathering "system." All black-border of course, to make sure that these get proper attention.
First, Deckmaster was the master and Magic just the apprentice, but now Magic is the Deckmaster…
My Little Pony better get a secret lair. I need to finish off the Mane 6 to win with Twilight Sparkle.
My late counter-argument to this is that a game's system should reflect the thing it is simulating. Android: Netrunner's mechanics aren't the same as Magic: the Gathering's because a lone hacker trying to be a thorn in the side of a colossal corporation shouldn't feel the same as a mage drawing magic from leylines to combat a peer. Sure you could use one system for both, but the flavour of the game would suffer for it.
we'll still refuse to play with people that play completely different IP decks tho, it's just not fun to have your D&D themed magic-battle be interrupted by the idiot playing his Fortnite-Transformers combo deck.
Prof: I know about Start Wars that there's a Darth Vader and one of the main heroes is a furry
Vince: Oh god no...
This whole conversation was comedy gold, not gonna lie.
I’ll say I’m a big fan of the new editing that went into this episode. I’m sure that it is a bit more work for your production folks, but I think those little moments near the end that make these videos just that much more enjoyable to watch.
Universes Beyond-only Format aka Non-Magic Magic. The pain Prof felt at that concept was palpable.
That format would be terrible unless they print a lot more utility cards. You need things like removal and deck manipulation; it can't just be a big stack of legendaries. Maybe if they make more UB full decks that have these kinds of staple cards in them. If that happens, I think a UB only format is pretty inevitable. Whether it would be popular or not is a totally different question.
Vince : it cannot get any worse. WOTC : get our new secret layer BTS, you favorite popstars on a card.
Universes beyond is the sort of thing where I don't really object to any one thing I just don't want to end up in a place where there is so much spillover that a commander game feels more like a pop-culture mashup. That is where I really don't want to end up at and every new universe, even the one's I'm looking forward to, are one more step towards that point.
You can tell this was filmed before the latest set of both Secret Lair, and Un-Set announcements.
depends on if it was announced before the gp vegas event
I finally figured out what was weird to me about Universes Beyond - they don't register as Magic cards in my subconscious.
I think it dates back to the Grimlock and Twilight Sparkle cards. They printed them and then said "But they're not real magic cards, obviously. This one says 'Convert a Transformers® toy'. This one uses the clause 'everypony wins the game'". Much like the holiday/WOTC employee cards before them.
When they print "Grimlock, Dinobot Leader" as a fake card (for advertising purposes), then print "Rick, Steadfast Leader" as a real card (for advertising purposes) it's just going to feel fake. If you asked me what Rick's ability does my first guess is something like "Put X counters on target creature, where X is your favorite season of Zombieland®".
(I think it's also why the whole D&D set felt like an un-set, but that's a whole tangent)
Ooh I totally get that, and I think I feel that way as well.
It really doesn’t help that dice rolling was a big mechanic in the DnD set, and that’s been a recurring mechanic in for Un-sets
If you read MaRo article about Unfinity, he said that: "Universes Beyond had started using the security stamp to express information about the card (normal Magic cards have an oval security stamp, while Universes Beyond cards have a triangle). What if we used the security stamp to indicate what silver border used to indicate? " So, in my opinion we can just take UB holostamp as an indication that these are not "real" Magic card. And like it was done with Silver Border cards, decide with our group if we allow these cards in our decks. In other words, treat UB holostamp the same way as if they were silverborder.
I love when Vince gets a good rant going and Prof just keeps negging him on.
I've seen links to Dune-inspired EDH decks with Hazezon that really flavorful. I know we had Amonkhet, but would like to explore another desert plane or go to where Hazezon lives.
I want a cowboy set just so that we get more horsemanship cards!!!!
It's just Flying 2.0
All evasion is just horsemanship ;)
Ayy, we're getting one
No horsemanship :(
The very first magic expansion, Arabian Nights, was basically UB and retroactively set on the plane of Rabiah. MaRo has said that it would require a 'Major Miracle' to return to Rabiah, but compared to WH40K and the like, it seems more 'magic' than those other things like Fortnite.
The scale is literally built on the planes name.
Vince and Prof chatting about Warhammer during this episode makes me really want a "Vince Introduces Prof to Black Library/Warhammer Lore" show/series. It'd be really interesting to get an 'outside' opinion on the lore, especially from someone like the Professor
Wheel of Time cross over secret lair seems plausible, and would actually be cool to see!
I would lose SOOO much money
The thing is though, "guns" or whatever pieces of technology that resemble firearms, have been depicted already in MtG's past. The alchemists in Innestrad used "geistthrowers", which were spirit fueled flamethrower, Izzet shock troopers used some sort of resource powered portable cannon, and even in Portal 2, one of the kingdoms had literal flintlock firearms. "Magic Adjacent" just isn't an appropriate standard to parallel IP themes deemed Universes Beyond compatability because magic in its over 25 years of existence flirted with many ideas within its creative expression.
Yeah, MTG already has a proliferation of cannons and launchers, so it's not much of a leap to get to guns (or maybe they can call them hand cannons).
Exactly. Doomcannon, charbelcher, goblin sharpshooter, predator flagship... MtG through its many themes and has demonstrated the denizens of some planes may be innovative or inventive enough to take the technical leap and improvise technologies that are not magic in nature but simply engineered for long range combat.
I loved last part "ah for an afforable, never in a million years" :D
The convention exclusive Transformers mtg cards were a cool concept (even if their means of transforming were unorthodox). I could easily see them going back to it and coming up with a more black-bordered means of transforming the cards.
FFG is pretty heavy into the Game of Thrones license, so I'd be a little surprised if that license were available, but I would've said the same thing about Lord of the Rings.
Critical Role seems like a decent possibility for the same reasons you mentioned for Rick and Morty.
The Witcher is an interesting possibility, Netflix doesn't own the license, but they do make a show off of it.
I agree on Dune. Maybe they can get that done for the second movie.
Similarly, Universus / UFS was pretty hyped about their Cowboy Bebop set. Who knows what rights are actually where, but possible they have some exclusivity agreement.
55:30 oh no prof knew about the transformers cards
Some of this is aged based I think. I'm closer to prof, played revised in junior high, what magic IS is very defined to me. For younger players I don't think they care as much.
I love you guys' banter back and forth! Watching all the old episodes is neat!
Really interesting discourse on 40k. It's a super deep world, and some of the novels are really good - Dan Abnett in particular writes well. I can definitely see the Prof's view of keeping Magic Magic, but I also see the desire of bringing more people into Magic with extra content. Hopefully the R&D department are in fact watching and pick up on some of the ideas you have.
My dream "out there" universe is for us to get a slivers set in the skin of Ridley Scott's 'Alien'. a slither overlord in the skin of an alien mother would be pretty sweet and would definitely satisfy the nerd in me.
I think the Zerg from StarCraft would also be good for slivers
@@zacky7572 Yeah, but I don't see anyone wanting to utilize any Blizzard IPs anytime soon, lol.
@@BlackliteLust Lol, true. Nor should they. They used to be my favorite developer. What a fall from grace. I knew it was coming the second they shook hands with Activision. But I’ll always have a soft spot for those Hydralisks…
What killed the Transformers ccg (this newest one) is they set themselves up for failure by putting it on a 3 month release schedule! Brand new product and as a magic player i could barely keep up and each set was Highly parasitic so they played poorly as a unified game. The base framework for the game was solid though and fun and balanced!
What killed Transformers is zero support. No LGS’s wanted to carry product because Wizards didn’t promote the game at all.
@@Zekaisa i had lgs and big box stores around here that had it. Marketing, i never saw it but doesn't mean it literally didn't exist.
If we're talking about potential Hasbro secret lairs. I would love if they did one themed around the game Clue. Seems pretty easy to do and there are plenty of characters in MTG lore that they could choose from to be each of the characters from the game. And of course, new clue tokens and use of the investigate mechanic.
As for something that makes sense for them to do, I would say with Kamigawa Neon Dynasty coming out, they should do a Promare secret lair since it is a Japanese anime that lines up nicely with the overall aesthetic of the plane's current environment.
1:36-2:44 *Now I’m legitimately scared of Vince.* 👀👀
How would you feel about a secret lair mystery packs. That have cards from the year or more pior five random cards and a special token for somewhere around the cost of collector booster packs
Having played magic for almost 25 years it is kind of hard to not be a purist. But the fact that it exists as a multiverse means they can totally make worlds based around science and technology. They already laid the first stones with kaladesh.
In kaladesh it was still a semi-reniassance society outside of the artificery, and the artifact technology is all based on magic. It doesn't make sense, with planeswalkers, to have societies with a signicantly higher tech level than others that doesn't protect said tech, because technology would spread... It's kinda like how guns and gunpowder were originally created in China, but made their way to Europe and the Middle East within 100-200 years (which is a really short timespan historically)
As a new player of magic (started around 5 years ago and recently really got into it this year) i do not mind the secret lair stuff, even if it didn't get a magic skin. But of they're going to make two versions of each card they need to have an easy identifier. My favorite card game, the Digimon tcg, fixes this issue by giving each card a serial number and you can't have more than 4 of each serial in your deck unless otherwise stated on the card.
You know, this has been really bumming me out; nothing about new releases gets me excited anymore, and it's been months since I've looked at a spoiler. I can't imagine a future where Magic becomes exciting again. Maybe I should check out Flesh & Blood 🤷
Sounds like burnout
@@deifiedtitan it's because of the product saturation. My comment's in response to this video, not burnout.
Exciting times to be a fab fan! The devs are light years different than wizards
42:03 "A wand with a clip". Hilarious.
"I'm sorry, I can't defy the rules I invented and constantly change. My hands are tied (with toilet paper)."
My favorite show on YT, bar none, not even kidding! TY Brian and Vince ❤️✌️
56:00 They drove the TCG into the ground with 9 sets in 1 year, and certain decks in the first batch were so good that no matter how they did other deck types or themes, the insecticons and jets were the meta no matter what.
Yes to Krynn, been playing a Dragonlance game online for 20+ years so this would've been very welcome indeed.
I'd love to hear what 40k armies interests the Professor.
I think prof is very right with his acceptance of the concept that while aesthetics can be limited or exclusive, mechanics shouldn't be, mechanics should be affordable and available. I would go further and say that all mtg cards should have a default art, which is print on demand and purchasable directly from wotc, at a fixed rate per card which is not related to power level or mechanical desirability.
Dies To Removal continues to be my favorite series.
The last five years have been so weird for me as an enfranchised player who's been loving this game since... 96?
I'd moved countries in 2016, left my playgroups behind, have never been able to find a solid new one since, and that was when my method for interacting with the hobby transitioned to discovering content creators like yourself, which has been nothing short of a godsend. Heck I am so happy to have signed on to the patreon when you were signing Syggs, I adore my copy.
But between now and then, also as i've had so few people to play with, and as i've spent so much time discovering so much more about how magic has evolved through the likes of yourself, kenobi, etc, it's really shifted how I want to engage with magic on a physical level moving forward, even if I had a solid playgroup now.
With the state of things, how much is released, how cynically and greedily motivated the mothership has become, and how limited my budget is, i've effectively had to take advantage of their yearly announcements to plan my engagement, and that plan is now:
1. Is the product touching on old mtg lore / artists?
2. Does it emotionally resonate with me?
3. Does it do either of those things better than other potential products this year that may do the same?
There's just so much coming out in 2022 that i'm pretty much only going to be engaging in The Brothers War, most likely. I just can't allow myself to be hyped for the other sets because i know i wont have the time, funds, or energy to give to all of it, it's just impossible.
But what i've noticed is, the more I allow for that attitude to sink in, the happier i've become about it. I can't wait to hear all about how awesome the new kamigawa set is, or new capenna for that matter, and i'm sure there'll be a splatter of secret lairs that entice and are fun for lots of people, and that's cool! But i'm out. I want to be voting with my wallet to some degree, and I never needed to have cards from every set to feel relevant or like it was required in order to have fun, and that mode of thinking seems more important now than ever with the way things are going.
Thanks for these podcasts and everything you do, it's always a pleasure to sit down with a cup of coffee and enjoy your talks. Have a great rest of the year!
By the time a player realizes why I refer to their card sleaves as "wrappers," its too late.
The monopoly bit sort of touches on something I've considered in regards to Universes Beyond: That they're considering Magic as a game system applicable to different properties. I forget their names but I know other games have done it, where the rules are the same but you can have Batman cards or Inuyasha ones or whatever all duking it out. Universes Beyond is them thinking maybe they can do that, but not wanting to commit. Because while they could just say "Here's a Lord of the Rings set for those fans, go ahead and play with them", it'd be awkward to buy into a card game like that without any assurance of support. So while they're shuffling their feet, they're going "It's okay, you can play those cards with all these established formats too!"
If they just committed, said "Hey, we're making a separate line of cards that works basically the same as Magic, so if you wanted to you could mix them up but we're not forcing you", things would've gone *so* much better. But they don't want to commit just yet, thus we're here.
Feel like you guys totally missed the idea of a witcher themed secret lair. Because that universe is rich with creatures, characters relics and locations.
Witcher is one of those thing I'd actually really like an entire UB set for like lord of the rings. I think SL is good for smaller UBs where you've only got a small number of possible themes and cards but it feels limiting for bigger IPs cause there's just so much to look at.
Its so cool to have you both in one room talking to eachother!
There are a few crossovers I would genuinely be excited for but never in my 12 years of playing have I said man this game would be better if it had Bayonetta/Dante in it, or jojo's or whatever your favorite IP is.
Im personally of the belief that magic should stay magic but WOTC obviously feels like that's leaving money on the table
Dresden Files secret lair? I really like that series, and it fits so well. The only flaw is that there's not much to gain from a crossover. It's just not "iconic" enough
Would love to see a Dragonlance set, it's always been my favorite D&D world.
I love hearing two strong opinions explaining their stance thoroughly. I love this pod!
Wheel of Time. There's so much potential here be it a secret lair drop, a set, or commander decks.
that conversation about star wars reduced my life expectancy by seven years good lord
Guns have shown up occasionally: Portal had several, Goblin Sharshooter, Rocket Launcher, Phyrexian Reaper, Deadeye Plunderers, etc.
They’re actually everywhere! I’m on a quest to collect all them and its actually really hard. There’s a lot of goblin gunners, all nightstalkers have them, they show up on vehicles, and there’s plenty of humans that have them as well
1:00:05 Anne Rice vampire, OR Legacy of Kain series vampire sets!
I would love to see a "Legend of Zelda" themed set for universes beyond. It would definitely sell and it probably wouldn't feel very out of place within MtG.
This would be great, but with artwork, not just screen shots of old blocky game scenes no matter how much I still love them.
Just dropping in to say that I love that you can do live in-person DtR again!
If you read MaRo article about Unfinity, he said that: "Universes Beyond had started using the security stamp to express information about the card (normal Magic cards have an oval security stamp, while Universes Beyond cards have a triangle). What if we used the security stamp to indicate what silver border used to indicate? " So, in my opinion we can just take UB holostamp as an indication that these are not "real" Magic card. And like it was done with Silver Border cards, decide with our group if we allow these cards in our decks.
Vince delivers an unforgettable monologue about eating his opponent's cards.
Prof repeatedly talks about negging, Vince remains clueless.
Prof: I think you just gave them a product idea...
Vince: Yeahhh... :)
Vince repeatedly explains the difference between ewoks and wookies, Prof remains clueless.
Best video yet.
Man has the professor really lived in such a hole about star wars that he doesnt know about Chewbacca being a wookie and ewoks? Or is he just fucking with us?
It is absolutely inpossible but I always want more DTR pods. You guys always have such great energy together.
It honest to God feels that way.
That title is perfection
I picture a Magic Monopoly game being like Explorers of Ixalan, where it comes with its own decks (that somehow factor into advancing around the Monopoly board) and they stick a few solid reprints in there to get people to buy it.
Kaladesh is the closest to sci-fi I'd want to see Magic get.
We just had our local modern store championship event in person. It felt so good playing again!
Nothing beats paper magic.
End of story.
(PK is hungry :D)
i would love to see a CanLander Points system used in commander even if its just a way to grade power level of deck. "oh ive only got a 5 point deck with me i think your 25 point deck may be a little much"
10:24 Pure comedy GENIUS
I mean, we complain about access of these secret lair exclusives, but the insane price of a format staple Ragavan is $90 a piece because it's mythic. We don't want cards accessible, we want them to be part of the lottery for when boxes are opened.
Honestly, in 2021/22 it's objectively correct to assume the worst of WotC at all times.
Is this Professor's origin story into his Warhammer 40k journey?
I opened a Crimson Vow set box and I ended up with like five total list cards. Given, one was exquisite blood, but my point is the list is still not the solution
I'm glad the turn never passed to you Professor, Vince clearly ate your deck already.
I know it's crazy but I would love to see them make more my little pony cards like that collection a couple years ago. I don't care if they're silver border either. I just want to be able to use the wincon on twilight sparkle someday
What I would LIKE to see out Secret Lairs are things like what they did with the Shock Lands, Snow Lands, Preators, that kind of stuff: stuff that's ALREADY in Magic, but basically just different art. Like what Vince said, skins (but MtG skins). For example, I would love to theme out the rest of the lands for one of my commander decks, with lands from the commanders plane. Or, maybe get cards with art from that plane. I know that these types of restrictions will NEVER be the only ones they do... But hey, that's what I want this product to be.
For me, I grew up enjoying collecting the different Monopolies that catered to my interests. I enjoy playing Monopoly, and getting to see locations from Fallout, Sonic, The Godfather, etc. always made me smile. If WotC can just keep it to skins, I think everyone will remain happy. But please don't do a Monopoly SL.
Always here for Vince & Brian. And I'm 100% the target audience for the 40k Commander Decks. I need them, all of them, right now. More!
I don't like the world's beyond, they make magic nothing more than a setting to me. I think wizards needs to slow down, really build interesting and unique planes and build them up in house. Taking things from pop culture and slapping them on a mtg card feels wrong.
The reason we’re at where we’re at with secret lairs and that type of thing is because 5-7 ish years ago when Mark Rosewater was just a deb who worked on unsets and that type of thing which at the time WAS the equivalent of beta testing mechanics and such. He stated on one or both the episodes of game knights where unsets were used that “in 5-10 years I hope these types of cards and mechanics will see play in black boarder magic” that’s paraphrased from memory but point remains that from those episodes we saw Mutate YEARS before mutate was a thing and we saw heavy dice rolling based mechanics WAY before we got the DND themed set. Then rosewater became head developer and now is utilizing secret lairs and differing sets to put those mechanics he developed years ago into magic even tho wizards knows some unset mechanics are fine in moderation and most aren’t unless that’s what we’ve agreed to (as in hey we’re playing unsets we know it’ll be whacky) but now we have forever in black boarder magic mechanics that are typically only fun to interact with once in a while whether you’re piloting a deck that has it or playing against it. Like I REALLY personally dislike mutate and dice rolling to determine what cards actually do or don’t do magic already had A LOT of mechanics that could and would make it hard to keep track of creatures abilities and power toughness levels but with those mechanics it’s worse and much harder
"Gambling isn't evil"
Tell that to the people most vulnerable to the shady as shit business practices of the trading card game world.
If you are dumb enough to gamble away your life savings - you should. People like that should not be allowed to have anything in the first place. You may call it "stupidity tax".
I believe a Final Fantasy Secret Lair would be really cool. The MMO is really picking up steam and the series has a multitude of characters, items, themes to be used. Also it fits the fantasy theme of MTG!
Probably won't happen because a Final Fantasy TCG actually exists.
Never should have had any 3rd party cards. It's a disgrace to the decades of lore and the authors that built it.
This is it right here. It turns it all into
Magic: The Billboard.
I'm fine with Lord of the Rings MTG. What bothers me is black bordered cards like Space Family Goblinson.
You two are the best! I'm happy you two had the chance to visit :)