How Easy is it to Overmix Bread Dough? Can you do it by Hand?
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- I always warned people who asked me about converting hand mixed recipes to be made with a mixer. I told them that a mixer is more aggressive, and they should be careful not to overmix the dough. But how easy is it really to overmix bread dough?
Following my mixer conversion video, I thought I would put my warnings to the test and see if I’m talking nonsense or not. Because as far as I can remember I only overmixed a dough once. It was a high hydration focaccia dough that I was beating up on high speed. Duh.
What happens to a dough when it is overmixed? With each revolution of the mixing arm the dough is picked up and twisted. This whipping movement incorporates oxygen into the dough. Over oxidized dough is said to lose its creamy colour and become white and lose its wheat-y aroma.
Sufficient oxidization is important for gluten development. If mixed too long the dough can become loose and sticky. The water that was absorbed by the flour gets released back into the dough and the gluten structure breaks down. After this there is no way to fix it. It will be a loose, soggy, and sticky mass unable to hold in fermentation gasses. To get a bread dough to this stage is not that easy.
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I realized why I love your videos… You state the hydration as a percent up front… In so many other videos I watch, I must pause and calculate the hydration in order to gain any knowledge from those videos as, in my opinion, hydration is probably the single most important variable to any dough… With your videos, I only stop to take a moment to provide the accolades your deserve!
Cheers 😎
This man mixed his dough into porridge and still made a better looking bread than I probably could 😂
You can make great bread! 😉
I know right 😂😂😂😂 while me keep struggling and always get back to the principal of backing 😅😅😅😅😂😂 life is beautiful
@ChainBaker - Me and my dough we go along very well, using machine to knit it, couple minutes all well then I Add Oil, OMG 😂😂😂 is like rain has fall down. From dough to almost porridge why. Sometimes I feel like not to put oil at all. Oil is btn 7% - 10%
@crellagecommunity7168 watch this and never knead again ua-cam.com/video/1knjFj923MQ/v-deo.html 😉
I was seriously always worried about overmixing my dough when I started baking because at school and in books they always told me this. This video proves that overmixing even with a mixer is really hard to do for a regular bread!
Another interesting experiment which debunks yet another old wives tale about baking. The time between being fully mixed and over mixed is so large I think it would be pretty much impossible to over mix unless you are making very high hydration dough with low protein flour. Maybe easier with a large industrial mixer, those things can really pound the dough, but certainly not possible by hand or a with a small kitchen mixer.
You could probably do it with a food processor, but otherwise...
I remember hearing that “overmixing” in industrial machines is usually the result of too much air getting into the dough, which affects the fermentation. Not sure if that’s actually true, but it seems pretty hard to overmix dough to affect the gluten from chain bakers tests.
For plain yeasted white flour that is true. But when you get into other flours and sourdoughs it can be very easy to overmix.
I agree with you chain man. Window tests are overrated and dough will always make bread 🍞 regardless how good are skills are. But learning the basics, we can all enjoy good tasting bread. Your channel is the best for learning *Bread 101.* Thank you bread teacher 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
This dude completely eased my worries about over mixing. Really appreciate this video
Thank you for this video. I found some tear to my wholewheat bread during the final fermentation Now I understand that is the gluten. I will reduce my mixing time and continue with folding instead to preserve the gluten. I will tell you what happen then. Thanks again.
Keep baking, Charlie! The more you bake, the more we learn! Thank you!
I love seeing this. Was always unsure of if I overmixed my dough. This does a great job of showing when you've crossed that line.
Thanks for showing how hard it is to overmix, and how obvious it is when it happens. One less thing to worry about! Previous video that showed we can use a mixer on 1&2 speed for the same time as kneading was really useful info, too. As always, thank you thank you.
Thank you for all the time spent making these videos, especially this one, with that 1 hour of hand kneading you did. Most underrated bread channel
Awesome, I’ve been waiting for this one! Thanks for sharing!
This is something I hadn’t considered before. Thank you for demonstrating.
Always! Excellent videos!!!
A very important test!
Thank you for going threw this for us all
Very educational. Loved it!
I think it might be easier to overmix enriched doughs. It could come down to mixer speed rather than length, but when I saw the dough you finally were able to overmix it immediately reminded me of the issues I had the firs time I tried your brioche recipe in my stand mixer. It might be interesting to do a side-by-side of a few different types of dough in a stand mixer to examine the differences in kneading speed for enriched, plain, whole wheat or high hydration doughs.
I'm very prone to experimenting to figure out the limits. I so much appreciate your experiments, which save me time and money!
You answer and demonstrate the answers to all the questions I’ve ever had about bread!!
Another awesome video thanks for sharing
👍👍👍👍👍 You are doing a great job in shedding light on what is fact and what isn't fact when it comes to bread making.
Thank you for teaching us. Its great to know also the mistakes like overmixing.
Yay! I no longer need to stress about over mixing.
Great example of how to avoid mistakes well explained Thanks
I kneaded a high hydration bread for 2 hours using a hand mixer. The bread had a crusty texture and gave me a hard time to shape. I live in a humid country. Glad I found this channel, I learned a lot. Many thanks
It was my lucky day when I found your videos, I'm re-thinking almost every notion I had about what I was doing before your instruction.
Thank you so much for these videos for all of your videos I have learned more from you than any other channel, book or website. I consider your channel the best and invaluable!
🙏
Great video once again. I learned loads. I only knead by hand as I have broken/worn out 4 mixers! Interesting to see how much mixing it really takes to destroy a dough, I definitely feel safe mixing by hand! Keep up the great content.
Great video very informational
another very interesting video! i love that you are teaching people how to think for themselves about bread recipes, as opposed to blind following of instructions. keep up the good work
because of this video from now on I'll stop worrying if my dough is over mixed, and I might start adding extra water initially to account for the water which is lost via evaporation during the mixing process, so thank you
Thank you for teaching us!
Cheers, Tara! 🤩
Very interesting to see the science of baking.
Brilliant video. Push it all the way to know what it is like overkneaded. I'm so glad to have the fear of over-mixing to be debunked! You do such great work. I love your teaching. Thank you.
Thanks for your work. I don't afraid to overmix my dough anymore :).
Spectacular demonstration. I learned quickly that my hand kneading doesn't do well with most machine based recipes. Again, I appreciate you kneading by hand. After a bit of experience, I never saw any need for a stand mixer.
I guess you can mess up making bread but it takes a lot of effort. For me anyways I have made all kinds of timing mistakes, measurement mistakes, and thr bread still turns out great. Personally I believe people put far too much emphasis on perfection, when very little perfection is required.
Once I forgot to put Butter in the dough, and only remembered after the dough had risen, I put the dough back in the mixer added the Butter, let the dough rise a second time, it turned out the same as adding Butter initially. Pretty difficult to mess up Bread.
Great video as usual.
Yeah ..... Try sourdough. That will humble you until you have experience. Anybody can make yeast bread but sourdough is another animal.
@@bayanon7532 Sourdough is trivial, takes a little effort to start, after that it is very simple. It is possible to mess up sourdough but takes extreme neglect.
Looking good! Would love to taste :) thank you again for sharing… I am subscribed 🥰
Thank you for this interresting video. I've been worrying about over mixing very long time for now and maby undermixed many of my pulla's (sorry, don't know what it is called in english). Thanks to you I try to not worry so much about over mixing.
Yes I have over mixed dough, by hand. It was whole grain ( Mostly wheat but I do not remember the other grains) It broke down very fast, under 15 minutes.
Somebody told me it was because I used a stone ground whole wheat which contains raw wheat germ and the germ has enzymes that attack gluten. In normal milling the germ is removed before grinding because the heat will oxidize the oils, but stone grinding stays much more cool so the germ can be included. I have not verified this with other sources. But I do have a distant memory of a different dough failure, that had raw wheat germ as an ingredient, that dough could not be saved it was almost a liquid cake batter at the end. 25 years ago though so I may have over-mixed memories, and I did not know anything about dough temperature other than effect of rise time.
Sourdough can also be an issue because over fermenting can be similar to over mixing.
today I was making a bread with tangzhong. I overmixed it, but I didnt know what happened until I watched this video. The first time I made this bread, it was so perfect. The absolute best bread I have ever eaten. I have tried to recreate it for the past week. I now am the proud owner of 4 quart jars of breadcrumbs. Tomorrow I will try one more time. I think I know exactly what my issue was. I allowed my dough to over proof the first rise and then again the 2nd rise. I also overmixed it because on one recipe it said that if the dough is too shaggy or wet to keep kneading. This was bad advice. Tomorrow I am going to stick with my original recipe because I know that it does work....if I dont get it this time I am switching to your recipe. I used regular all purpose flour, active yeast, eggs, milk, butter, sugar and salt. Thanks for all the work you do to create these awesome videos. I am so glad I found you
Thank you very much for this, very interesting and helps us all worry a lot less when kneading and trying to find what we all thought was the "perfect amount of time". :-)
Oh, My! This is such a great video! A week ago, I followed the recipe for 100% Whole Wheat Tangzhong Milk Bread with a mixer. With speed 2, I mixed 8 minutes when the dough came together, so I started adding room temperature butter little by little for 25 minutes ( rest a few minutes intermittently ). The dough looked like about to almost form a ball several times after the butter being added, yet fell apart (repeated this look several times ). Finally, the dough looked exactly like the very last one, the whole wheat dough in your video that you DESTROYED. I wish I saw this video before I made the bread, so I could still use my own hands to recover it a little. Actually, mine was much more pathetic than yours, that I just dumped it into the baking pan. I let it proof only a few hours, yet it already had very strong yeasty smell (usually whole wheat sourdough takes around 7 hours to bulk proof), with about 5% rise. I mixed this dough so much, for Tangzhong seemed to make any dough stickier, so I thought it might look differently in a mixer.
Thank you so much for making this video. Great help!
Really thank you 💓☺️
Super informative, especially seeing that the window pane test is not a reliable predictor of mixing a white flour loaf, and that extra kneading for a modest amount of time is unlikely to negatively impact it. I'm curious now how this applies to pastry dough
Thank you
Good info in the vid, as usual. I've used a Horbart C100 mixer to make bread for decades. I don't recall ever having a problem with overmixing - even in more recent years when I began following the advice of a modern bread baking cookbook (2015) and "developing the gluten" using speed 2 on my mixer for 5 - 6 minutes after ingredients are incorporated at low speed. I've had good results. Not concerned about overmixing... What I'd like to know more about is temperature and why it matters. When I learned to bake from my dad back in the '80's, he would warm everything to about body temperature - including the mixing bowl. Again, he had good results and still makes great bread.
I don't think I've ever overmixed my dough. I use a Kitchen Aid 6 quart mixer and nothing but King Arthur flours, all purpose, bread flour and Sir Lancelot super high protein. Excellent results. I do enjoy learning from you. You give a lot of great advice.
This is a great video and this demonstration helped me to better understand because I do use the stand mixer. And my strategy for sure will be from now on to slightly under mix it and make sure I get some folds during bulk fermentation.
I often do a 90% hydration for ciabatta bread in the stand mixer using the cake paddle and it is necessary to mix it at very high speed and I have destroyed the Dough.
I use the cake beater too... all of the time. It is just so much more efficient than a dough hook for wetter and smaller quantities. Richard Bertinet recommends their use at slow speed only and for about 60-120 seconds. In my mixer that is 144 stretch and folds a minute at slowest speed. more than enough to kick a dough into play, especially after autolysis.
@@kevinu.k.7042 Yes and I’m probably getting too carried Away with the cake paddle. I’m sure your comment is very correct
Yes this is something i figured out when i was first making dough. Overmixing is very hard to pull off.
I need a "How's it going my bakers" compilation. It brightens my day every time I hear it.
🤩
Welll done!
Great to know. Thanks, Mr. ChainBaker.
I think my kitchen would warm the dough too much. Whenever i start cooking or baking it easily gets to 95° and can even exceed 120°(35°c to 50°c). So i don't do much in there
THANK YOU SO MUCH !!! Because I add various types of flour to basic wheat flour to make bread, I ALWAYS - FOR YEARS - overmixed my dough, lest if I did not mix it enough, necessary gluten would not develop -; thus, my bread dough almost always resulted in a borderline broken-down stage. Although the final bread was still tasty, it was just never light and airy. Now I know why - and can actually work less by 1/3 to 1/2 of the kneading time and achieve a better result ... Ha ha, Irony of Life ! Again, THANK YOU SO MUCH !!!
I’m glad i discovered your channel today, i like crazy, you remind me of myself when it comes to dough. Every time my wife goes grocery shopping she now say, do you need anything except flour and yeast. I say no 😂 ho, pizza night, bring pepperoni and cheese, ho bagle, bring cream cheese and jelly, ho pita night….. and so on.
😆
Thanks!
Cheers! :)
Another superb video. Yes! I seldom get a windowpane with my weaker flours and wholemeal doughs. But trying to get them over many years made me focus on the look and the feel of the dough, just as you say.
A dough becomes smooth as the gluten forms and then any re-appearance of roughness on the surface is a sign of gluten tearing. This was starting to form on your dough at 3:48. A definite sign to stop and to move onto proofing. But, you were in dough destroyer mode and you still got a decent loaf out of it.
Tears in the gluten will not heal no matter what. Where the bonds have been broken the molecules have lost their ionic charge and then they cannot re-attach to other gluten strands. I guess its down to percentages. You still got a decent loaf from the mixer when there was a lot of evidence of gluten tearing.
A beater is much more effective than a dough hook in a mixer for wetter doughs for the initial mix and then knead. They have a scooping action so they mix the ingredients in seconds too. They have a sort of part and stretch action. I seldom need more than 60-100 seconds kneading dough at slow speed in a mixer. A few slap and folds afterward brings the dough together nicely after that. Care needs to be taken for stiffer doughs and larger quantities. Mixers can be overloaded and break.
To my mind after the initial mix coil folding and gentle stretching and folding is all that needed. The gluten will form of its own accord. The gluten strands form in a coiled chaotic manner. All we need to do is to gently stretch them out into sheets. The baker can feel the dough developing, just as you say. With high hydration weak doughs I know when I have taken the dough to its limit as it becomes ever so slightly less elastic. Then it's time to go on to shaping and proofing.
Oxidising a dough in a mixer does diminish the flavour. The flavonoids are delicate and they oxidise too.
This is a superb video. Even though there were moments reminiscent of Nightmare on Elm Street.
Thank you. 👍
Anyway, I've just taken one of your rye breads out of the oven - it looks great, but as per your advice it will be under lock and key until tomorrow - Well maybe a slice for my supper? 😆Thanks for that one too.
haha yes I was on a mission here! 😅 My mixer did not come with a paddle. I would definitely be interested in trying it out someday.
I'm sure you can cut off the end piece...or two ;)
@@ChainBaker I have permission from the man himself!
Definitely a crust and some soft cheese for supper. But how to stop the bread knife cutting more slices? 😂Cheers
Patience will reward you 😁
I found that what matters most is how long you proof it and how you handle it after you proof. I am only making bread and bakery productds for like 3 weeks, achieved nice results by making high hydration dough, let my dough rest 2-3 times for 30 minute to 45 minutes, and and between 2-3 I do a few "french fold", and after last 'rest' if I can make a nice shape, it turns out super nice.
'Maybe if I kneed it for a couple days it will turn back to flour' lol good one
I remember when I was learning commercial baking in a bakery/workshop/factory thing that has a dough machine, there's this one time somebody forgot to set the timer for the first batch of dough, it runs for almost an hour more than what's needed. It kinda turned into a bucket of shapeless slop, the instructor gets really mad but said don't waste it,so we proceed with it. And, yeah it still bakes, but the bread is really flat and has a weird texture, it's hard to work with, and just weird in general. But anyway that's the only time I've seen actual over mixed dough, and maybe it's unsuitable for selling but certainly fine for eating.
By the way that program teaches how but not why, and what we do then with all the fancy machine is very different from what we do at home. Now that I only bake for my house hold, I realized I really don't know much about bread making at all 😂
I made bagels yesterday and I overmixed it using a stand mixer. It was almost liquidy and super sticky. Don't know the percentages but I used 500 gr bread flour & 297 gr water (plus the yeast etc.) The dough did not look smooth but it proofed nicely. But after boiling & baking them, they were flat. I'd say the thickness was a smidge over 1/2 ". It still tasted fine. This is the first time this has happened to me. I walked away and I think I watched a video while it was mixing.
So grateful for this complete demonstration! The only time I've been tempted to use the stand mixer, and thus risk over-mixing, is with brioche and a very high-hydration focaccia. The hopeless stickiness of high hydration doughs sometimes tempt me to use extra bench flour. Tossing them in the mixer solves that, though I worry a bit when the motor on my stand mixer heats up. I've watched you hand knead past the sticky stage in enough videos now, to push myself to keep on going, but still get tempted to "solve it" with more flour than the recipe calls for.
Interesting result. I want to try using a mixer for high hydration dough, every time I try to knead it by hand I feel like I get frustrated with the mess it becomes.
I don't think I've over mixed dough. But I've suffered a similar result by over fermentation. Since I usually bake pizzas, it becomes a nightmare to stretch out, impossible if it's too far gone. But it actually tastes pretty good if you actually manage to get it into the oven.
It can be quite sticky and messy when done by hand, but it should come together. Some high hydration doughs can take up to 15 minutes of hand kneading. Yeah even when it's over fermented it can be made into great tasting bread/pizza :)
When i was an apprentice in a bakery i overmixed a dough and it mixed less than 15min! Though the machine i used was a machine that could mix over 30kg of dough at once. But the feeling the air inside the machine was very humid and very warm and for the dough, you could not touch it at all, it stuck everywhere.
Hello, watching the last dough it reminds me 1 time i did a pizza dough by hand but at that moment i didn't had normal flour so picked 1 with baking powder that was already open, and after mixing and kneading the dough, it looked just like the last one of the video, i was pretty surprised and to trying to fix it i let it rest and kneading again like 3 more times, but in the end there was no change. it was pretty weird.
I think i didn't overmixed it since i wasn't 1 hour kneading it, so i always have though the flour was expired(or the baking powder on it). coz on other occasions i have used the same kind of flour and it mix pretty fine.
Amazing video. You killed a few birds with one stone. Especially the video you planned to make with a mixer and high hydration dough.
I found from my experience with making pizza dough and higher hydration that when you undermix a bit and then let it sit for 20 minutes and then do a few more stretch and folds works out really well. Its a bit sticky and not perfect mixed but when you make the balls and put them in the fridge for 15 minutes as we learned from you, doing that second ball from the fringe makes the balls really smooth and evenly distributed temperature and strength which then works great for longer fermentation. I have adapted that technique to making the balls.
I really like this video because I stopped using a mixer since I discovered your channel but the other day I mixed for 6 pizza doughs and I wish I had used the mixer. It took longer to mix the dough by stretch and fold and my arms where in pain.
I think the moral of the story with this video is, over mixing is a waste of energy and time, however undermixing and using autolyse can be your best friend
and I also found with Pizza is you don't need a super spring like bread, so even if undermix a bit, and what I mean by that is not having a perfect smooth dough in the end but some stickier surface as you would get with higher hydration. You can get a great pizza!
You showed us that over mixing has many drawbacks especially with final temp and we all know temp can be our enemy. Thanks for this video really helped me out with the mixer for higher hydration. I was always afraid to run the mixer for to long but as I saw 20 minutes at higher speeds did the trick. I usually do 8 - 15 minutes stretch and fold depending how big the dough is and how much hydration but using a mixer can have its benefits. :)
I can't wait to see the high hydration and mixer video coming soon I hope :)
After watching this video, I'm starting to realize that overmixing may have been what caused my sourdough catastrophe today, and not over-hydration. Here I am, yet again, watching one of your videos mere hours after something went horribly wrong, and this time I also didn't search for this video. It was just offered up to me by the UA-cam gods.
Anyway, today and one other time months ago, I was mixing my sourdough in a mixer, and it just turned into a completely useless mess. Tearing everywhere and super wet and sticky. Completely unworkable. I even tried saving it by giving it some resting time and folding, but the dough was just a complete mess. Definitely wasn't under-mixed, because it had previously been a very beautiful, smooth ball when I first combined the autolyse and the levain. Very strong bread flour with only 1.5% rye and 10% whole wheat. 72% hydration. I MUST be overmixing it and destroying the gluten. I think it fell apart after I added in the salt. The salt must have given the mixer some "grip" on the dough ball and started ripping it apart. I use a 2.5-hour autolyse, so the gluten was probably heavily developed, and I must be mixing more than I needed to. Next time maybe I'll just mix in the mixer until it comes together, and then do the rest by hand, or at the very least watch the dough to see if the surface starts tearing.
Glad I saw this video though. This whole time I was thinking that maybe I accidentally measured the hydration wrong and that's what caused it to come apart. But now I know why there was no saving this dough. The gluten was gone and would never be coming back. And this exactly mirrors the other one time that this happened, and that time I also thought it was an over-hydration issue.
I have undermixed my dough a few times ( I was just tired and hungry) and I have kneaded a pie (butter) dough a bit much once or twice but my results were always edible even if not beautiful.
And because I do not bake for visuals it wasn't a big deal. :-)
Interesting thoughts on windowpane. I never bothered when I predominantly mixed by hand because I found I usually didn’t get one, but the dough seemed fine to me based on feel.
I found many "tests" in baking they try to teach us are inconsistent for me, at least I can't get the hang of them. Window pane test is one example - how thin should I be pulling, is it okay if it tears, how does hydration and wholemeal flour change the expected result? Other example is the poke test - it seems I can't judge the spring-back of the poke well, what if some parts of the dough spring back fast, but other parts slowly, etc.
@@gaborszabo9804 I agree the poke test is pretty inconsistent and influenced by different factors. With window pane what I’ve seen that I think is a bit more helpful is that the edges of whatever tear you get in the dough when stretching it should have pretty smooth edges when you have strong gluten development, whereas it looks more ragged when it’s not as well-developed.
But I tend to prefer seeing a dough that starts climbing up the hook when I want really strong gluten development.
It happened to me with a mix of spelt and whole rye at 70% hydration. The ezymatic activity of the warm rye even made it faster. I just mixed 10min in my kenwood at speed 1. Now i only mix rye with wheat. Spelt is just too weak.
Perfect, i lreaned a lot from u
Did u have a video about the relation between the water n flour?
Here it is ua-cam.com/video/v9tPXTlbYxM/v-deo.htmlsi=raWKHkvNX3U9-ps8
Just wondering. So we always talk about building strength, do many folds, how important it is to build gluten structure for the bread to rise up, not to the sides. But as you showed here, even with basically gluten structure being destroyed, you managed to pull off pretty nice loaf of bread. It seems to have the same shape (maybe a little more flat) so why bother? (maybe except for easier handling bread with better structure) Over the time, I've been trying to implement different rules and advices to my bread making, but honestly, the only thing that drastically improved my breads, was using preferment (thanks @ChainBaker !). I don't want to sound ignorant, but other tricks, techniques, order of adding things often felt like art for art's sake.
Great video. The only shame is I wish you would have just used the same flour and same hydration for each experiment. At least I learned that because I have a mixer, I don't necessarily need to do stretch and folds, I can just mix inbetween rests. Then preshape. Then final shape.
i overmixed once a 70% hydration dough. Basically i just mixed the flour, yeast and water without properly kneading, left it in the fridge overnight and started to knead it the next day. As soon as i started to knead it, the gluten instantly started to tear apart and it ended up being a flour soup in just 3 minutes. I guess i found the most effective way to overmix a dough :D
😅
Great experiment...I have a question please, I hardly find bread flour in my town, can i substitute it by mixing all purpose flour with fine semolina? To get high protien content and better rising bakes....I use a sourdough starter usually .
You can use AP flour, but just reduce the amount of water a little to make it easier to handle. It will work for most bread :) Or you could try using a little vital wheat gluten - ua-cam.com/video/mf3Xo6YtsB4/v-deo.html
perhaps you could do a video showing how to know when dough is underproofed, overproofed and just right. and a comparison of how they look like after being baked?
That's a great Idea. I hope ChainBaker takes note.
I'm still a novice, so I'm still in the learning process.. Sometimes my dough doesn't seem to get that elastic and will end up ripping easily and getting a rough exterior, even when I try to roll it into a ball.
I repeatedly question whether it's due improper hydration level, or if I'm not working or folding the dough enough or correctly. But one thing I noticed recently is that I made rolls and I followed the specific volume measurements of a recipe. It came out perfect.. Then about a week later, I tried it the exact same way with a different brand of flour. The dough mixture turned out WAY too wet. I had to add a significant amount of flour into it just to get it to not look like a soup. Once got it to where I could work it, it didn't get as elastic as my previous batch, nor did it seem to rise as much after baking.
I was surprised that there was such a huge difference in the amount of water that each flour absorbed. I've heard that you can experience differences, and that different flours have different grades or protein content, which plays into the process of making gluten. Though I checked the nutritional values on the flour, and they both had the same amount of protein listed.
Maybe the inconsistencies is partially due to different flour? I feel that I'm over analyzing things when troubleshooting issues that I experience.
Protein content can be a good indicator, but it is not always reliable and flours can differ quite a lot from each other. I try to stick to the same brand for consistency.
Another thing is measuring by volume which can be quite inaccurate. Here is a video about it ua-cam.com/video/070k4O2Ws1A/v-deo.html ✌️
@@ChainBaker Thanks. I appreciate the tips and info. I've been meaning to do the measurements by weight and percentages in the future, when I get around to buying a proper scale.
This was an awesome video nice to see what it takes to destroy your dough puts the rest paranoia
We know that the bran in the 100% whole wheat effectively 'cuts' the gluten strands during kneading which always makes it hard to develop gluten when using 100% whole wheat flour. Since you never really 'broke' the white flour, it would suggest the cutting action of the bran is the main cause of that particular dough breaking down. Would be interested to see a 1/2 100%:1/2 bread flour dough handles overmixing. The guess would be that the dough would eventually break down but not sure if the additional bread flour would handle the cutting of the dough by the bran for much longer.
You could be right there!
Thank you for this experiment! Seeing the dough in your mixer and how it handles while you are trying to break it brings me to a question. I am using a strong white bread flour - it says it has 13% protein content. Hydration is about 63% (if my scale works properly). I am mixing it for about 3-4 minutes on lowest speed (1 of 7) and then another 3-4 minutes on medium high speed (4 of 7). During mixing my doughs never lift up fully from the bowl - there is always some looser dough sticking to the sides. Does it mean that: a) I am not mixing it enough or b) the flour is not truly 13% protein or c) the flour is not capable of 63% hydration and I should go lower? I am always able to tighten the dough with folds but I would love to see my dough come properly mixed from the bowl already. Thank you for your opinion!
Or your mixer does not work properly? Just an idea.
Do you mix the dough before switching on the mixer? Try the method in this video and see if it works - ua-cam.com/video/a0sbfWRhSU8/v-deo.html
Hey. Great video. You mentioned that temp control is more important. Why is that?
1) ua-cam.com/video/29PScgqX9WA/v-deo.html
2) ua-cam.com/video/MrgXRwkz-3w/v-deo.html
@@ChainBaker thanks
I believe I overmixed just recently. I decided to try King Arthur 00 flour. Didn't realize it was only 8.5% protien. Tried to make pizza and at one point, the 70% dough became paste.
One of the problems I have with 00 flour recommendations is no mention is made of gluten even though there are different types of 00 flour, with some having higher gluten and some being more suited for cakes and pastry with lower gluten content.
Something to keep in mind, our hands are warm but the mixer bowl is metal which should act as a heatsink to neutralize the temperature increase from the mixing.
nice workout :)
can the gluten rebuild itself if got broken by putting the dough to rest in fridge? and after that kneading another round of 8 min - could this fix the gluten?
Interesting. Perhaps it could be improved that way. I guess we'll have to experiment someday 😄
@@ChainBaker I think with weaker protein flour the gluten will take even less time to get broken as in my. case. 7gr protein per 100gr flour
From the thumbnail image, I thought this was gonna be about chicken. Forgive me, I haven't eaten breakfast yet, and my brain is slow. haha
😂
Once I overmixed a dough (at least I think I did) by hand kneading. I was making bread rolls, and I wanted to achieve great volume like industrial bakeries (other people tell me they do it with black magic dough conditioners). I used AP flour (10-11% protein I think), because textbooks said here they are made from AP flour. I heard that vitamin C is a dough conditioner, somehow helps the gluten structure, so I added some, because I thought the more/stronger the gluten, the bigger volume I get. About 60% hydration (again, from the textbook), added some vitamin C (aka ascorbic acid), and kneaded on the counter, by hand, as hard as I could. About 20 minutes I think. At some point the surface of the dough started tearing, it wasn't smooth anymore, it was rather like little trenches or grooves and when I baked it, it was inedibly tough, like a breadstone.
Make this into a loaf - ua-cam.com/video/L6MeyTvy7GQ/v-deo.html it will be the softest bread ever without any magic ;)
@@ChainBaker That's a totally different type of bread, it's enriched with milk, eggs and butter. I was going for a regular round bread roll (or bread buns? sorry these names are confusing),with, flour, water, salt, yeast, but wanted to achieve the greatest volume. The bread rolls you can buy here in stores, supermarkets, industrial (ie. non-artisanal) bakeries, weigh around 55g and are larger than my fist. Very airy, and there's a factor of nostalgia from childhood there. Not very flavourful and healthy though, but it sill kind of bothers me that I cannot achieve the same volume at home. Every Hungarian baker video on youtube about those bread rolls tell me they achieve the volume by using additives, dough conditioners, etc. I even wanted to get my hands on some of those additives, but the companies that make those sell to only professional bakeries, and in such big quantities that I couldn't handle in my home. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That's my point though. The milk, eggs, and butter are natural additives that produce the same result, but are the real deal 😉
"maybe if I kneed it for a couple of days it would turn back into flour"
hahaha brilliant
😆
That whole wheat loaf baked and came out remarkably well considering that it looked like wet tissue paper after that brutal mixing.
How to control the temperature if there is 30 celsius in my kitchen?
Freeze the flour, mixing bowl and dough hook. Use extremely cold water.
For sourdough a higher temp means more lactic acid bacteria and the pH will destroy your dough.
If I remember correctly, I've seen recipes for Chinese hand-stretched noodles that calls for 1 hour of mixing in a mixer.
Yeah I dunno why it caught on but the window pane thing can bugger off. Never been reliable for me either.
Did you compare the taste? I would think that the overmixed dough might taste more fermented, since it loses all the CO², which should make it breathe more quickly (?)
On the other hand, you would need to compare it to a properly made full grain dough, it will obviously be different from white bread ^^
It is hard to tell a difference between white bread that had been fermented only for a couple of hours. It is bland regardless :D
What is the temperature range you want and why?
Temperature control ua-cam.com/video/MrgXRwkz-3w/v-deo.html
My dough regularly looks like the dough you over mixed, although I only mix it for a few minutes. It sticks to the bowl and the hook can’t grab it well. It’s 75% hydration sourdough. I wonder what I am doing wrong?
Perhaps the flour you have is a bit weak. Try lowering the hydration a bit. It could as well be that the mixing bowl is big and that is why the hook can't grab it. Try pre-mixing the ingredients before you switch on the mixer. Or make a larger batch of dough 😅
@@ChainBaker Thanks for the advice. Really enjoy your videos.
So I just baked the bread. May be the best loaf I have made. I used two of your tips. I took 20% of the flour and poured boiling water over it. Plus I used the autolease. Then I made the bread as I normally would. Very soft and fluffy but still has nice chew.
Awesome! 😎
What I learned from this video, it seems it would take effort to not make a delicious homemade bread.
I split my time between france and US. I notice European flour needs to be mixed a lot longer to get strength so I use a machine, but when I’m in US I use King Arthur flour and I do it by hand and fold-no machine. Strange, no?
North American flours are stronger as far as I know.
😇
Sooo ummm..... can you overfold a dough ? :D
Very welcome cool video though. It's always really helpful to understand how dough really reacts, instead of just blindly following common advice.
You can definitely over fold it. If it gets too tight it will tear.
I think spelt flour can be "ruined", due how it works. It will probably look fine until oven time, but then it just either collapses or refuse to get oven spring at all, rather it goes flat (unless you bake in container).
Regular flour, dont think I ever managed to ruin bread flour and I did almost everything wrong at the start of my baking attempts. I think our modern bread flour is really durable. From my experience with rye and spelt, especially later, those are definitely not durable at all.
You said autolyzation destroy gluten, I got the opposite impression from the autolyse video where you have shown that with this method the dough is stronger from the start
It helps develop gluten, but it also makes it more stretchy and that is why it should technically be easier to destroy. I did not manage to do it in the video anyway :)