Tangzhong & Yudane: Explained | Which One is Best?
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- Опубліковано 23 гру 2024
- Tangzhong & yudane are dough improvers. Made with slightly different methods, they produce very similar results. In this video we will have a look at how they are made and used in breadmaking.
Tangzhong is a Chinese roux (liquid & flour paste) that is cooked in a pan, left to cool down and added to bread dough. Generally, made at a flour/liquid ratio of around 1:5 (sometimes made at a 1:4 ratio).
Yudane originates in Japan. It is a 1:1 mix of flour and liquid. Instead of being cooked the flour is simply mixed with boiling liquid and then left to cool down before being used. In both cases the purpose of cooking and mixing with a hot liquid is to gelatinize the starch of the flour.
Starch in flour gelatinizes at a temperature above 65C (150F). During this process liquid is absorbed by the starch which makes it swell up. It is a similar process to how the outside of a bagel is gelatinized when boiling.
Tangzhong turns into a sticky paste while yudane stays more like a piece of glutenous bread dough.
Both improvers will make your bread more tender with a more open interior and they will make it stay softer for longer. This is because the starches swell up and retain the water better preventing the dough from drying out.
Although commonly used alongside eggs, butter, sugar and other enrichments, these improvers can achieve great results all by themselves. So, they are great alternatives (especially for vegetarian/vegan diets) to those traditional ingredients. As with other methods, a few minutes of preparation can make a world of difference in the final loaf.
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interesting experiment, beautifully executed and documented. i couldnt explain the results and decided to research it. the principles of tangzhong and yudane seem to be distinct even if they overlap a bit. tangzhong works predominantly by developing starches into a paste, which functions as an emulsifier, similar to how egg yolks or lecithin work when included in dough. also, the starch emulsion retains moisture and slows the migration of moisture from inside the finished bread toward the crust, extending shelf life. a tangzhong is usually not heated above 65C, as this temp is sufficient to develop a paste and higher temps will harden the paste and render it useless. in yundane, the predominant principle is using heat to activate amylase naturally present in the flour and causing it to rapidly alter the chemistry of starches to produce sugars and other smaller chains of carbohydrate. whereas typically bread starches begin to crystallize after baking and even attach to the gluten, the smaller chains produced by yudane resist crystallization and attachment, slowing hardening and 'staling' of the bread.
to summarize: tangzhong relies mainly on emulsion, and yudane relies mainly on enzymes. i'll list my main sources at the end of this comment
thanks for all your work. your channel is full of great ideas for experiments and you have this charming way of always pushing and questioning what we think we know about baking. i'll probably use yudane next time, though i might experiment with combining yudane and tangzhong, because, since they work a little differently, why not?. i also wonder if high gluten flour is necessary for a rich bread that rises quickly and how lower gluten flours might affect the result. finally, i note indo-pak roti is often made with 100% yudane, like your recent flour tortilla recipe
primary sources for my research:
-The Staling and Texture of Bread Made Using the Yudane Dough Method, Food Science and Technology Research, September 2014
-Influence of Amylase Addition on Bread Quality and Bread Staling, ACS Food Sci. Technol, July 2021
don't know who you are, but you are knowledgeable!!! Greatly appreciate your post and will keep it in my notes. Do you have a channel or a blong we can follow? You sound like a professional.
Thank you so much for the insightful comment. That also explains why the yudane dough was rising more rapidly. There was more food for the yeast to kick off.
I wonder what the result would be if you used both methods. I.e. combined a tangzhong (for its emulsifying properties) and yudane (for its enzyme action) in a single loaf?
So do both methods increase shelf life in the end?
You need to be hired by America's Test Kitchen. Fascinating read, thank you.
These videos are of excellent quality! The fact that you took the time to do a stop motion animation with the bowls shows how much thought and effort you put into each video! Thanks!
Thank you 🤩
and not to mention, he would have to wait for the doughs to proof, he would need to edit the narration to synchronise with the video demonstration, and he would have to write a clear explanation for this concept. Wow, this is a high quality video, i hope his videos would reach many more people, especially beginners like me. 👏😁
Pretty sure it’s a production studio, but I could be wrong.
Great experiment!
I can tell you why Yudane produces a better result. Tangzhong kills all the amylase enzymes in the floor with heat while Yudane preserves them.
The heat activated enzymes in Yudane produces more complex sugars and improved though.
Another trick I use with Yudane is i make it a couple of days in advance. The additional time makes it very sweet.
👍👍👍
Damon - what type of flour do you use? Thank you for posting this. I love understanding the science in bread making.
I use Canadian bread flour which is 13.5 percent protein. I think you can go as low as 11.5 percent and still be ok
Both produce similar results but Yudane is definitely better. It's in fact patented and fully researched and tested method for their specific results. Whereas Tangzhong was an adaptation to the Yudane method by several homebaker / Author which became popular worldwide. Tangzhong only became popular because everyone wants to make Hokkaido milk bread. This bread only exists outside of Japan!! There is no such bread! It's just plain white bread 食パン.
And if after heat deactivating amylases one lets yeast do all the work? I wonder how this would work. Or perhaps after cooling add more flour with intact enzymes. I'll give it a go.
Charlie, YOU are my favorite dough improver. My baking has changed dramatically in the two weeks since I started watching your videos.
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I think this southern girl has fallen in love!!
Couple tricks that I use for Tangzhong. I mix the flour and milk in a small bowl and microwave it until its thick with a few stirs along the way. Then to cool it quickly I add it to my mixing bowl with the cold liquid. That equalizes the temperature perfectly. Great work on this video.
I always microwave mine, too. Just faster & less mess to clean up.
Yup, I microwave tangzhong. No need to use the stovetop.
I cook my tangzhong, microwave always gave me uneven consistency.
@@theweatherisaokay4964 I found that it did also, if I didn't stir it a few times. Normally I do 30 seconds and then stir followed by 15 second runs each with a stir until I get a good consistency.
@@kjdude8765 Yea, need to do that.
I tried a double recipe of your yudane and took a beautifully shiny, very flavorful, and very fluffy loaf out of the oven. Out of the three tanghzongs I recently made and this, the yudane is the clear winner. What I noticed, however, is that in comparison to other recipes, you add an extra round of bulk fermentation (90 min). I first thought that was a mistake but was surprised by how well the the bread rose in the pan. That means that in total the dough fermented for about 5 hours at 25C, being deflated twice in the process. That adds a lot of flavor and structure.
Love this channel and your style … no fuss no “smash the subscribe “, calm, smart, and thorough. Learned a lot! Thank you
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Wow! I made garlic knots using yudane. Everyone commented on how fluffy they turned out. I used 20%. Thank you for explaining it so well!
Can you please explain?
The weight of flour in yudane is 20% the total weight of the dough? Can you please explain further? 😊@@annydobon8106
If you are baking, say rolls, with 500g of flour then use 100g in your yudane with 100ml of boiling water.
I clicked on this video by accident but then you just jumped right into the content instead of blablabla in the beginning so I kept watching and I really liked your approach on this. so thank you for the good informations!
Cheers 😎 here's another video on the topic if you're interested ua-cam.com/video/mD-DWPafMMk/v-deo.html
I've never heard of the Yudane, but that looks a lot easier than the Tangzhong that I have used with similar or even better results. Definitely going to give this one a shot!
Love your explanation💕
They used to be really confusing to me. Because tangzhong and yudane actually share the same characters (Kanji) in both Mandarin and Japanese. This video really helps to clarify the difference 💕
Thank-you for showing your face. Your are beautiful on top of having that soothing voice! I became sober 11 months ago after 2 decades of struggling with alcoholism. Baking bread helped saved my life, and though cookery has been my passion since forever, you introduced baking bread to me. Bread is my favorite food. My daughters laugh at me bc I'm obsessed. Gluten-free dieting is a joke! Thank-you for being you! =)
That is excellent! I'm happy for you 🤩 Keep at it and keep baking 💪
The thing to know about tangzhong is that u don't simply want to use the hydration for a given recipe. It allows you to increase hydration while keeping the consistency the same as a lower hydration recipe. So for example if you have a recipe with a hydration of say 70% ,using tangzhong you are able to increase it to say 75% without the dough slacking and keeping a consistency of that of the original 70%. The dough is easier to work with and the bread even moister and softer
Exactly!
But how do you calculate how much to make, say for a sourdough recipe..such as mine..650 flour, 451 water, 140g starter. How much paste do I make?
I was a bread baker with a culinary degree who studied much of the science behind sourdoughs yeasted breads etc. I also had the very good fortune to pick the brains of 2 of the members of the US team who won the gold metal in the coupé de Monde (spelling?) I just recently used this method at home for a Japanese milk bread & was intrigued by this technique as Ive never seen it before. I was really impressed by the volume though I should have finished the mix by hand for this initially sticky dough. It did develope a silky dry surface after continued kneading as promised. I will repeat with included hand finishing of mix after I eat these 18 rolls. I grill them in a pan w olive oil & sear a little ham & sliced avocado & a touch of hot sc. Your tutorial will be added to my notebook of all my bread stuff. Thanks!
Can this be used with whole wheat flour? I'm wondering if it could soften a 100% whole wheat loaf.
FWIW I've been playing with the % of total flour weight for yudane in a standard enriched sandwich bread. I've found 10% is the sweet spot for the flour I use. 15% was great for buns but I found it was too soft to hold up for a sandwich
Great video - thanks for sharing this comparison test - I have been quite pleased with the results when using the Yudane method.
Finally tried this comparison - I feel using Yudane as the dough improver resulted in the best bake. Photos have been posted.
Thanks again for sharing this comparison video.
Great video, my friend. So educational.
I've watched this video several times, the first time, I couldn't follow, this time, the information came in so clearly and it just makes me realize how much I've learned over time and that you are just as interesting then as you are now to me.
The science of baking will continue to interest me forever🥰
Keep doing what you're doing!! Much love from Canada 🇨🇦
I made the recipe with the yudane method.
After so much struggling to make a bread I got it. I always had fermentation problems.
Thanks for the recipes, techniques and secrets to make these incredible breads.
The result is incredible!
Greetings
The evaporation problem with cooking tangzhong was exactly what I ran into for my dinner rolls on Easter. My gas stovetop heats aggressively, while the paste looked good, it had lost a lot of liquid. The dough ended up just a little too dry and tough, and as a result, there was less of a rise when proofing, there was less gluten development, and less oven spring from the steam- the end texture was way off. I was kicking myself, too, because I had weighed the tangzhong and probably could've added back the lost liquid. But now I know I can just do the yudane method and have a more reliable result with less fuss. Thank you for explaining!
I microwave the milk and flour in a small bowl. Heats much faster and with less risk of evaporation.
Thank you so very, very much for the experiment that will save us time from trial and error. I'll try both methods at my home, too. May God bless you!
Thanks so much Charlie! Great experiments and explanations for them. I’ve tried the Tangzhong in my sourdough with good results. I’ve not yet tried the Yudane in my bread but I’m going to!
Blessings 💕🙏
Tangzhong is in fact the same word as Yudane (Japanese Kanji, one of their three alphabets and the biggest one, are just Chinese characters read differently), it was seemingly popularized by a Chinese author in a book called "65ºC Tangzhong Bread" which is where the west took it from, but that author was just using the Chinese reading of Yudane. From what I gather, Hokkaido milk bread uses Tangzhong but they will read it as Yudane locally.
I love how in Japanese you can read your kanji in Old Chinese if you like just to be fancy. I guess it's sort of like if your name is "John Farmer" you can call yourself "Jacobus Agricola" to be cooler
Spot on! It is infact one of the rare loanwords in Chinese from Japanese (the other way arround is quite common) 湯種 = 'hot water' 'seeds'
@@SeverusFelix Except nobody does or thinks that in Japan.
@@florianmaier104 I find Japanese loan words are not rare anymore..Chinese-speaking people love to borrow Japanese kanji words even though they have their own to describe the same concept. Especially true in Taiwan where the people are generally Japanophiles. case in point:. 職人，芡飯
Just to clarify, Yvonne Chen is a Taiwanese author not Chinese.
Hello! Everything is very accessible and professional. Thank you for sharing with us. 🙏❤️🇺🇦
Your videos are exceptionally informative! Despite all the effort I've spent scouring the internet for decent articles on many baking-related questions I've had, you have affected my knowledge and skills more significantly. You have my gratitude, keep up the great work!
Thank you for all of your efforts in testing different baking techniques and recipes, capturing the entire process, and describing the benefits and drawbacks in these videos. By far the best bread channel on UA-cam, and as always, good information and examples. I'll try making cabbage piroshki the yudane way, without the milk or eggs.
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I have seen a few videos about these, but then I thought "let's see what Charlie has to say about this." And you didn't disappoint! Thanks!
Thank you for this video. I have been using both of these methods on my bread but am confused as to how different each is to the other. Your video just made everything clearer.
Charlie, I love the format of your videos. The side-by-side comparisons along with great instruction make your channel the best for all bread and baking-related content. Thank you!
I'll keep 'em coming 😉
@@ChainBaker Great! 😊
This is a great video comparison. I personally preferred Yudane as i realized the bread is softer & stays that way longer as compared to Tangzhong. I usually used these improvers for sandwich loafs since light & fluffy texture is important. Your videos are great, I’ve learnt & understand more along the way!
Hi I agree. I have been doing different recipes for about 3 weeks now. Adding gluten is good but dont add too much. It makes the bread dryish. I found my original yudane recipe was very soft. I will make yudany tomorrow.
Thanks!
Cheers! :)
I made this yudane tipe of bread, from now on, I'll use this technique when ever I make yeast tipe of dough, it turned out the best, softest bread I ever made and I make bread almost every day , sometimes twice a day
Thank you dear Chainbaker for everything you do
Sending you much love from Belgrade, Serbia ❤️
🙏
Dude! Phenomenal video. I love the production quality and the level of information you provide. Thank you.
I first learned of this method in cake baking a few months ago and my life has never been the same. Thank you for the thorough explanation. 🙏🏽👏🏽
Which one did you use in cake baking? Tangzhong or yudane? Thanks!
Could you please specify which method you used in your Cake -- tangzhong or yudane?
Thanks
Thank you! ✌
Besides the great detailed explanation, I was amazed for the stop motion sequences of your videos! Congrats!
Saludos desde México! :)
Thank you so much for making this video to clarify my or maybe a lot of people's confusion between the two, for there are many videos on UA-cam using the 2 terms interchangeably (very confusing).
Also, your demonstrations of putting ingredients side by side for the comparison is GREAT. Visual demos always help.
your videos and explanations are brilliant, scientific and logical, breaking down baking science into very understandable instruction and explanations. totally amazing, all of them. i'm slowly working my way thru
I learned how to make both tangzhong and yudane bread elsewhere, but USE either form has been another story! 🍞 I had to come here, my old stomping ground, to finally understand HOW to use each. 3:38 And why they work to make the breads so fluffy.
Thank you! ❤
✌️😎
Congratulations on the comparison, I also chose to use Yudane in the recipes, you did a beautiful professional job, GOD bless your wisdom for sensitively showing us every rich detail of the baking secrets. Big and strong Brazilian hug.
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Tangzhong method makes more sense for sweet breads , that will help them last for days , sinse doughs that use milk goes bad in a shorter time than the ones that use water
Another great video sir!
May I add that usually for covering Tangzhong, I always see it recommended to press the cling wrap directly on it to prevent it from developing a dry crust. Specially if it is stored overnight.
I adapted a cinnamon rolls recepie with Yudane and worked perfectly!
Yudane is the one I've tried with great results, after watching this video I will stuck to it. Thanks again for the great experiment and explanation.
Thank you 🎉 Thank you ❤. I tried your experiment using Yudane & the bread turned out very well. I used the same method with a brioche recipe & made cinnamon & raisin spiral rolls. The result was amazing.
I love your voice its so encouraging it make me wanna see more Just to listen more...great video, very informative
I very much appreciate your precision and accuracy. My brain simply cannot work with this level of concrete detail (which is why I majored in Literature 🙃), so being able to rely on you for the directions and explanations is a huge help. Thank you!
Wow this is so interesting! I was in the Chinese Honors Society in High School all 4 years, and addiction got in the way of continuing that journey to the East. Thanks so much!
I really liked how you tested tangzhong & yudane. Thank you for your video.
Videonya keren, Perbandingan keren, sangat membantu untuk yang masih awam 👍👍👍
Thank you for clarifying! I often see the terms Yudane and Tangzhong being used interchangeably as well as together for both the cooked and uncooked versions in recipes. It is like seeing the terms buneulos and sopapillas being used interchangeably ... similar but not the same thing.
I am always using tangzhong for my breads, it’s my first time hearing about yudane. Definitely going to try yudane on my bread soon! Thank you for this informational video❤️
I made the best donuts ever by using 15% of the flour in the recipe to produce the tangzhong. I believe there's no reason you have to limit yourself to 10% of the total flour, or to a 5:1 water:flour ratio when producing a tangzhong.
I produce my tangzhong in the microwave, stopping to mix once or twice, and taking the temp up to a max of 150f/65c.
I'd be very curious what final temp your Yudane reaches when you mix them. Perhaps the differences you experienced between Tangzhong and Yudane came down to the max temp of the flour before chilling and mixing into dough?
Your videos are always so informative!
I dared not to make breads with preferments before. After watching your vids, I made ciabatta with biga, hot cross buns with poolish, and more.
I guess I'll have to use yudane for my Yemeni honeycomb bread (خلية النحل) next time. My family absolutely love those!
Thank you for this video. I’ve been using tangzhong method, I will now definitely use yudane from now on 👍❤️
Thanks Charlies for the thorough experiment. I enjoy watching your videos and I also picked up lots of bread baking tips along the way. Your channel has become my goto YTchannel for bread baking.
I wonder if you could add some sourdought starter to these soft bread, which might give them a hint of the wonderful flavour of sourdought bread and the softness of the Tangzhong / Yudane bread.
Thank you :)
Yes, a starter could be used. The only limitation is the amount of water available after making the tangzhong or yudane :)
As always, excellent material. I preffer the yudane for the ease of making and using. I have always been fascinated by the lightness of many Asian breads so typical in Hong Kong bakeries. Perhaps you may show us some of their tricks if they are different that these 2 methods.
I only heard of and tried Tangzhong, but by finding more about Yudane I'm so excited for the next time I make bread.
Awesome video :)
my go to channel for bread... thanks for sharing
Another wonderful tip! Never made this type of bread before, but I am going to make it tonight. This looks like something my father would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE. He has a thing about bread. You do such a great job on these videos. Thank you for the time and effort you put into them.
thanks for this clear explanation; I keep trying for challah w/tz and it just hasn't worked for me. I've tried winging it and percentages both with online tz challah recipes and with my favorite go-to "regular" recipe.Although my challah is already tender and fluffy it doesn't "last". So I keep trying; I'm fascinated by the notion. Will try yudane today with your percentages and my favorite recipe.
I always learn the most from your videos. Thanks for sharing this experiment.
This was a great teaching video, like so many others that you've done. I'm definitely going to try the yudane. I've never baked bread with either of these, but the yudane seems easier for a beginner. Thank you so much for making CLEAR and understandable content!
I learn a lot of this video, keep good work ,thank you you for sharing your ideas.God bless
I tried your yudane recipe today. It turned out excellent! Thank you!
I came to point out that in the title you mean to say better and not best since there are only two options. But then it was such a captivating video and I learned so much about yudane that I was hooked to the very end. Great side-by-side comparison and explanation!
Great video! I've never even heard of the Udane dough improver 😯.
I wonder where those dough improvers stand to be used alongside a preferment like poolish. 🤔
It can definitely be done. I have not used them together with a slow fermented preferment, but here is an example of yudane + flying sponge - ua-cam.com/video/gbl8P2FKizo/v-deo.html
Thanks so much for the content. Can I take a wild guess about why the Tangzhong took longer to rise? It may be that the milk has sugars in it and may compete with the yeast for water. Love the amount of work you put on each video, it shows the passion you have for baking.
Great explanation of both. It is a pleasure to watch videos like this
2 questions
#1 how do you incorporate these dough improvers into any bread recipe? I want to make my own dinner buns for Easter this year.
#2 why is this bread made in 2 or 3 or even 4 sections in the bread pans? I have often wondered. Can you not make just one dough ball and shape it like you would in a normal bread recipe?
Thanks for sharing this comparison. I think I am going to try out the other option to tangzhong myself.
1) ua-cam.com/video/mD-DWPafMMk/v-deo.html
2) It's just for looks ✌️
I was going to bake Hokkaido milk bread which required Tongzhong roux. Not a big fan of extra steps while baking. I like to use veggies for moisture content in bread. Learned the technique from another UA-cam cook/ doctor. Excellent way of having kids eat veggies. Instead of one cup liquid, I use one cup veg whether grated zucchini or steamed squash/sweet potatoes. For Hokkaido milk bread, I use steamed spaghetti squash, condensed milk, processed all ingredients in my bread machine. Bread came out all soft, light golden yellow. It's amazing when veggies in bread dough are not noticeable.
I've been waiting for anyone to do this for ages. THANX!!
Your videos are so informative and educational. You do a great job in your testing and explaining the process. I will be a watcher of your channel to further my bread making skills. Keep up the good work. Amazing!!!!!!
Cheers! :)
Thank you for the comparison. I’m going to try the Yudane method first.
Hi Chainbaker! i stumbled upon your chanel recently and i am a fan of your content..you have brought back the excitement and joy to my bread baking. your chanel is referesher...i watch atleast one of your videos everyday...sometime bingewatch the entire day..he he.. i have already tried your how to improve everday loaf with preferments--i made it it biga and it was super. i have tried tangzhong and noticed the difference in how it makes the bread softer. today i tired yudane with 50;50 whole wheat and bread flour with milk as the medium of hydration.
i am based in India as we have a variety of wholewheat flour called aata, the gluten content is around 10% and the APF we get had 11.5% gluten. i used the foodgeeks gluten calculator to make them both 13% gluten rich. Using Yudane i used the 110 grams of WW flour (half of the entire flour)and 110 gms of boiling milk to set. after its cooled i used rest of the ingrdients to make the dough. i had to add additional 40 gms of more millk as the aata flour absorbs more water. the dough was not sticky and easily rolled into a ball. i added soaked raisins to the dough and the usual bulk ferment twice and preshaping, shaping and baking. i rolled the dough log in oats before putting it in the tin for final ferment. the bread was soft a bit dense not too much. the taste was superb and it was really soft.
my yudane didnt rise that much...well i didint have another dough parallely to compare but a general observation. the last raise was 35 mins..as i thought i would over ferment and the dough would collapase while baking.
my question is.. can using milk entirely for hydration make the dough dense what do you think? should i increase the hydration ( i am still to venture into high hydration dough--thats next on to do) or replace milk with water for yudane or the whole dough? Please let me know what can be done.
have you tried making a bread with aata flour---you get it easily in the UK in Asda or tesco ( lived in the south yorksire for a while) i hope you try a bread with it some day and post a video.
i really hope you see this comment and reply.( i realize it long..). hope it doesn't get lost in the sea of other comments.
this is first time i am engaging in a UA-cam converstation..🙂
Hey Sunita! :)
That bread sounds fantastic! If are right in that swapping milk and water 1:1 can make the bread denser. That is because milk is made up of only 90% water, so you should always add more milk or else the dough hydration will not be correct. Here is my milk video for more answers - ua-cam.com/video/Ku9wAbLbI9A/v-deo.html
I have not tried using aata, but I will definitely try one day :)
Btw I just spent three weeks in Goa and loved it. India is amazing! 😍
Thank your for showing the baking process step by step. I have learned a lot watching you. I also like that you don't make a huge recipe since it's just my husband and myself so we don't need a big loaf of bread, just small enough that we can enjoy without feeling guilty about eating too much bread. Cheers!
Thank you :)
Great information thank you. Please I would like to know if I could use whole-wheat flour instead? Also please could make a bread with Quinua flour 🙏
ua-cam.com/video/_XZGGPxydKs/v-deo.html ✌
What's up ChainBaker! This is an awesome channel and your videos are excellent, insightful and thorough.
The same Yudane technique is used in rye bread in France (Tourte de Seigle) , Germany, and Russia (Zavarka). And probably in many other countries.
Thank-you ! I realllllllly Appreciated this Video ... I have used Tangzhong a few times but 'never' tried Yudane before & have been wondering about it for some time - now, b/c of your tutorial, I now know : ) I'll be trying the Yudane method soon, I've subbed : )
✌️😎
Thank you, you just simplified my life!
Another great video, thanks! I would love to see one about the effects of adding deactivated yeast when baking bread. :)
I prefer the tangzhong. It's much faster and more convenient than the yudone to make; and the fact it has to cool isn't too big an issue if you prepare it prior to starting on your dough, or just spread it thin to cool faster.
I use the tangzhong, on my milk bread. Good to see a new way to do it. Thank you. I got to try it on my next bread!!!
Thank you for this video....this saved me from doing the same test ☺️👍😊
Great video Charlie! One point of interest I have is whether you can mix both a pre-ferment and a tangzhong/yudane in the same recipe? They shouldn't interfere with each other ingredients wise but I'm curious as to what you think their effects might do when combined.
I have pre-fermented a tangzhong for burger buns. It worked well but I didn't do any side-by-side tests to determine if there were any drawbacks to this method.
If you're going for maximum softness, then using a preferment would counteract that a little. But it can be done for sure. Yudane would be the way to go since it leaves more water for the main dough.
Prefermenting the tangzhong sounds interesting!
@@ChainBaker I made a 10% tangzhong for my burger buns, waited for it to cool a bit then added extra flour to make a 100% hydration sponge with added yeast. It works but I'd love to see one of your in depth comparisons to see if it's worth the effort.
CHEFF, watching you tear up that Yudane bread at the end is extremely satisfying it makes me wanna scream
definitely trying out next! thank you for the video
If you like that you should check out this video ua-cam.com/video/I0i-cADEtNQ/v-deo.htmlsi=qkxolqOfk-32FxUc 😉
@@ChainBaker thank you for the recommendation, chef 😋
Thanks for sharing, I just learned tongzhong method and I love the outcome. . i would try yudane and see since this will save time
I've never heard of these before. Fascinating! I have a lot of learning still to do.
Cooking the starches in water is different than pouring scalding hot water over. The first achieves complete gelatinization while the second only partial. The second then has more starch that is left uncooked and will absorb more slightly more water than the first one which can't absorb any more. Scalding works well for breads but for other applications you need complete gelatinization of starch for better regularity across batches.
Thank you. I like this kind of experiment because you helped save my time. Keep the good work!
😶 I haven't heard of either of these before. But I know the bread that would make an amazing pull-apart. I can fold in some cheese and tomato to make a lovely pull-apart. 😋 Your channel has all of the thing I don't know I needed to know all in one place. Thanks
I'm an expert Baker myself of 40 plus years and I'm always experimenting and trying to kind of better or best solutions to how to do things like making a cake, baking the bread, and so on. About a year ago, when I found out about vital wheat gluten, I bought it and started experimenting with the different bread flours. I used the wheat gluten in just the all purpose flour and the bread flour. I also make my own oat flour out of whole rolled oats (it has to be that kind and not instant or 2 minutes). I grind in my good blender until it's fine to touch. You have to add an additional 1/4 cup flour to the one cup to be the same weight volume to regular flour. I add wheat gluten to that as well.
I was amazed how high each kind of flour used that bread, cake, muffins, and etc. raised at least 1/4" or slightly more. I read all kinds of measurements of gluten to flour. Some were way too much, such as 1 Tblsp. to 1 cup flour. Too much will change the taste and sometimes the texture. The standard measurement is 1 1/2 tsps. to 1 cup of flour. For best performance and texture, it is to sift the flour and gluten together 3 times, guaranteeing the gluten is well distributed. The more you sift the flour it will be a lot better for your product. This may sound too much, but I have 4 large containers that I store all purpose flour with gluten and one wo gluten, bread flour with gluten, and oat flour wo gluten because I add with flour recipes sometimes. I'm a big baker of all kinds. I love to bake and give it away. Sorry for going on so much...I like to explain too.
Thank you for sharing ❤ you explained very well! ❤
I never tried Yudane because it seems such a drag personally, but what've been working for me is Tangzhong because I believe it has more gelatinization process, makes a high hydration dough workable (better) and ideal for long and slow fermentation.
For the counterpart, you might want to let the tangzhong rest in the chiller for hours before using and let it warm up a little before you mix altogether with the rest ingredients.
As always Charlie, your contents are amazing. It's always a treat for me if I see new videos from you. Thank you.
I was looking for a milk bread recipe and this came up and I’m so glad I watched this.
This is a versatile yudane dough ua-cam.com/video/L6MeyTvy7GQ/v-deo.html you can turn it into a loaf too ✌️
@@ChainBaker thank you!
parabens pelo video explicação fantastica, obrigado por compartilhar, nao vou mais fazer metodo tangzhong.
This is just pure art plus science! I love milk bread and making it from scratch is one my goals this year.
I have never heard of Yudane, i agree about it being easier, I will try that method next time, TY
Can't believe I didn't know your channel until now. Thank you so much!
What about 48h and 72h? Just for curiosity.
Cheers! :)
They perform similarly. Saying that, a tangzhong dough can be made with more water, so it should retain more water and stay softer for longer.
I love your channel! Never used either recipes but thank you for the comparison! I've learned so much on how to be a better baker from your channel. I believe in using quality ingredients and proofing time to produce similar or better quality bread without going through so many steps! Continue making videos, they are so informative!