One of the realest things Asmon ever said about Wow is that a raid's difficulty can be predicted entirely based on how much of it's mechanics can be delegated to the 5 or so actually competent raiders you have.
Spine wasn't hard because the mechanics it was the insane burst dps check. You pretty much needed to class stack in order to kill each tendon on one expose phase. Ontop of that I f you stacked shamans for healing link totem the fight was much more manageable.
running old raids with friends usually makes it less boring and more fun, but spine of deathwing makes me regret saying that. i've wiped so many times because they don't know how to sit still.
Asmon: This raid is so good because players have to cooperate, think, be a team! Also Asmon: I will throw the entire raid attempt if i wont have the biggest DPS ....
You may be new here, but Asmongold is kind of a massive hypocrite. He's fine with using his stream to mass gank/camp others, but hates when a group of stream snipers kill/camp him. He openly welcomes donations of gold, mounts, removed transmog, help completing things, etc, but decries boosts and buying gold. (Ya, I get some will say that's just acting, but when he reserves and gets all the gear and accepts gold for funny reactions/acting - CRAZY how it's always to his benefit, with exception to the few times he's griefed beyond his control).
@@olwe666 Is it salt? It's literal truth. I mean.. what the original commenter refers to is a perfect example. I don't watch Asmongolds stuff, only the few things here n there but I know how he acts from what I've seen. I've heard him say those exact things. 'I ruined everyones experience just because a warlock out DPS'd me, hahah doood and it was so fucking funny' Denying that Asmon isn't that just proves to everyone you're stuck on your knees infront of him with your throat full. Regardless of if you think hes entertaining or not, the guy is the biggest manchild hypocrite. That's just the fact of it.
The thing with Vael that isnt being talked about, that fight in particular from the Blizzard dev team coming from Everquest (Rob Pardo, Tigole, and the other guys from Blizz) was the first time a raid boss had been a real dps check. So in raiding it was a huge evolution from the idea of just healing tanks and dodging aoe's. At that point, it was a completely new idea.
As a former Vanilla raider (went all the way to Kel'thuzad at lv 60 which was very rare), I just want to rectify the misconception that modern WoW players have about Vaelastrasz. Vael was never, EVER considered hard, even during Vanilla. And no, the bomb mechanic was never a problem. Heck, Baron Geddon had a bomb as well and anyone unable to deal with Geddon's mechanic did not belong in BWL anyway. The bomb wasn't even what killed peoples the most during the enrage, despite the fact that none of the mechanic were hard anyway. The reason he was called guild breaker wasn't because it was hard. It was because he was a lag engine. Basically as soon as you were pulling him, the whole raid would lag terribly. it was so BAD, that it would be felt by other guilds inside BWL in their own raid instance, as all the BWL instances were impacted to a lesser degree. Back then, every zone had a common chat dedicated to it, and it includes raid instance, where peoples inside BWL but in different instances could communicate freely. And I'll tell you, it wasn't rare to suddenly have peoples complaining about lag and asking which guild was pulling Vaelastrasz ; and as soon as they were finished, the lag would go away. Now while lag is always bad, it was especially bad against Vael. Because it's a very short fight, and a DPS check, but lag lower your DPS. So it means that if it lags consistently, your raid needs higher gear than it would normally need to beat it. And... here's the catch : at this point in time, your only source of gear to get better gear were the 10 bosses of MC, dropping 2 pieces of gear each for 40 peoples ONCE PER WEEK, and Razorgore. That's around 22 pieces of loot for 40 peoples per week, and the more your raid is geared up, the higher the chance to have gear pieces that all the peoples that need it already have. And... that was pretty much it. Until you could make for the difference brought in by the lag, your guild would wipe in chain on Vael because no one could improve their gear in any decent manner outside of waiting more weeks for potential loots. And you would wipe a lot, because Vael was in the second room of the instance and every fight would last less than 3 minutes. Want a proof of what I advance ? The lag was eventually fixed( in1.9 IIRC), as an official part of the patch note even. And the very day it was fixed, Vael stopped being a problem for any guild still struggling with him. The number of guilds having him down jumped on patch day and kept increasing in the following week; and after that, you never really saw him bully any guild ever again. The reign of terror of Vaelastrasz ended the very day he stopped being laggy. That's it, really. He was tuned by the devs with no lag in mind, so he was a DPS check that was higher than intended due to lag, and players had almost zero way to increase their DPS quickly when arriving on him. And the faster they went through the previous content, the worse it often was, since they were even less geared when reaching him for the first time. Lag was one of the major reason raiding guild were breaking in vanilla. Not just Vael lag, but regular server lag and server problems as well. Our server had problems during 2 months, it was impossible to do any raiding between 8 and 10 pm every day for 2 months. Most advanced raiding guild on our server disintegrated during that time, or they migrated on server clusters that didn't have that problem. It may feel unthinkable nowadays but lag and other technicities were some of the most terrible enemies for many raiding guilds. And that's also why when you put back classic wow servers without this problem, you have a hard time understanding why guilds struggled so hard to advance.
It's kinda interesting how he goes from "This fight was well designed, I loved it because it's mechanics prevented bad players from getting carried by good players. Having the raid be contingent on the individual performance of everyone is great :)" to "I hated this boss because it was constantly ruined by one bad player, fucking shamans >:("
pointless post. Hogger isnt a boss. and dont go say oh but what about stockades. Nope thats not the real stockades and u obviously meant the one in elwynn forest
@@joshy4476 He was a raid boss at BlizzCon. I forget what year, but basically the best raiders at the time fought pairs of bosses beneath the Argent Tournament, and in the end, the final raid boss was Hogger, who decimated the raid group.
I remember back in the day when I played TBC, my friend was suprised that we strugle on Illidan, he said it's fucking easy. I asked him how did they do it, and he said 4 people stayed back to ress the dead. Then I just realized he's playing on private server and it was full of bugs 🤣
@@crabato001 MoP is quickly heading towards being 9 years old. That's right, in a couple of months MoP will be closer to WoW's original release date than present day (2004 - Sep. 25 2012 (MoP release, 8 years) 2012 - 2021 (Current, 9 years). Now you can feel properly old like the rest of us.
@@Lewtable That means that I was 12 when I played MoP... Didn't realise I was so young when I played WoW heavily thats crazy appreciate the research thats very interesting
So it's official, being in my 30's and never playing WOW even though I play neverwinter with max level characters and elder scrolls as well.. I always wondered about why I never played WOW. After stumbling onto your channel I ended up consuming all your videos up until the point I had to try it myself. So we have come to the point where I got the game and playing everyday. I know I'm late to the party, but I made it. Thank you for your video content and getting me into this game, it is worth the praise it gets.
Siegecrafter black fuse the most underrated boss... such a shame whoever designed this boss needs a raise, I remember every single part of this fight for all roles and I never got tired of it back then. Such a shame this boss is overlooked by many nowadays :(
They're probably not even at the company anymore given how things have been going. I still haven't forgiven them for firing Xelnath after what he did for warlocks in MoP.
The problem with Muru back then (and in general with the whole SWP raid) was that every guild had to cope with the totally different raid setups for each of the 6 bosses and find players/classes with the skill and gear needed to accomodate all the different raid comps. Also none of the raid members had full or close to full BIS gear to trivialise the fights. On most private servers there is no such problem as most players have multiple alts and also the content is farmed for years and years since there is no expansion change. I played on both retail and on a pretty good and accurately scripted private server and the difference is huge. For example on official TBC my fury dps war did 2.9K dps on KJ (with 1/3 of my gear BIS) while on the private server when I reached full BIS gear my fury jumped to around 4K average with my best kill at 4.6k, same applies to every other class/role. The benefit of today's player base is the amount of time TBC and every other old content was out and the amount of info there is on those encounters that they can now fine tune everything to make it easier.
Everyone: We loved Ulduar hardmodes! They were really fun to play and interesting mechanics! literally Blizzard: Yeah lets never do them again pretty much!
The problem were the timebased hardmodes i remember so many trys you are at 20% and the Raidlead said: Hmm i'm not sure we make it lets try again. Only because he was scared we didnt make it in time and need to wait a whole week.
I knew M'uru was gonna take number one, I was active player during that time and closely folowed the whole Nihilum-SK Gaming race which was by far the most interesting thing then. Class stacking, everyone leatherworking to stack BL, chain heal and shadowbolt galore and all Kungen trash talk. I miss those times. :)
For chat it was sub rogues on spine, you needed the 1 min CD shadow dance to be up for every plate. After nerf you could get away with combat which was far easier to play and therefore more consistent.
The nefarion stacking was also viable due an unintended consequence of the mechanics and feral druids, low geared fearals were fine. The stacking on spine was a bit more impressive as you needed legendary geared mages and rogues which were rare. Guilds had to aggressively poach players to get the fight down.
When Asmond mentioned Mogushan Vaults: I loved the first boss as a main tank. The communication between the other tank and me back then felt like it was a dance where we alternated the calls and the lead who called the swaps. Everybody in voice shut up but the tanks and when it ran smoothly, we knew we did our job well. Same was with the endboss in heart of fear, when we had to tank the adds between the phase-changes.
Don't forget that Spine of Deathwing also did barrel rolls in addition to everything else which just kicked you off its back if you didn't stand in the tentacle pools. And the drums requirement in Sunwell Plateau was initially for Brutallus since it was a DPS check.
Honestly I feel like the boss for the Warlock green fire quest should have been an honorable mention. I knew SOO many people who just gave up because they couldn't do it. It took me probably 30+ attempts to get the kill
Dark anima. I remember my builds first clear, we were so close just a tank 2 dps and a healer for like the last 45 seconds. Just the shadow priest last alive died and 1 second after she died the shadow priest dots killed it and it counted we all screamed it was amazing
Mythic Avatar made me quit WoW for almost 3 years. Took my guild 487 pulls. I gave up at 419 and quit the game until I started playing again a couple months ago.
I raided sunwell and muru and we never got the kill before the nerf think closest we got was 20% it was INSANELY hard at the time as the step up on difficulty was like nothing us players at the time had ever experienced, brings back great fond memories though of some amazing times
I remember Animus. My raid group was stuck on him and couldnt get past. We almost did but then WoD came out and the resulting bad/anger from being stuck on Animus caused our group to break up within the frist couple tries of raiding in WoD.
@@Fidhife we took a break at the start of seige because our raid leader ninja transferred due to stress from doing animus so long. We voted as a group to give up animus and go to seige but we didn't really have the heart to raid anymore. We did it a bit on and off but then tried to regroup for real when WoD came out but it didn't work out. We did a couple runs but most people were just burnt out and preferred to go casual. The ones that still wanted to raid left to other groups.
Spine of Deathwing, the only "old raid/gold farm" boss that takes more than 30 seconds to beat - I usually skip it altogether because this fight is 5 minutes of lame.
i remember soloing blackfuse belt mechanic - because as a hunter it was possible to use disengage to get up there over and over. i loved having that job and my raid trusting me with it
Spine was a pain for sure during release. When it was soloable, not too bad, just gotta keep going back and forth lol. If i brought a friend, i had them die, easier to do myself then trust they wont flip him
BEWARE! BEWARE! BEWARE! BEWARE! BEWARE! That, or if you had any sort of self heal or leech you could just root yourself in one of the tentacle spawn locations.
most of these fights are pretty damn hard, but man i'm with asmon. i straight up hate dark animus. there were always someone who didn't know what to do. HC version was pure chaos.
"Retail players are much better than classic players" - Chat loses its shit calling every classic player shit, not realising most classic players play / have played retail and agree cause they have seen both games lmao. But yea... Threat is a hard mechanic when you gotta pump for those arbitrary numbers.
I remember killing hc spine for the first time at a LAN party with my guild. I was scribbling up the positioning of everyone on a whiteboard after a bunch of attempts and we finally got it
I always thought Spine of Deathwing was a crazy-cool idea for a fight, even if it was frustrating. The idea of parachuting onto the back of a dragon aspect, trying to pry loose plates while balancing on his back, while he's flying and doing barrel rolls... Crazy Cool.
I feel like the bosses that were hard "Because it was buggy" aren't hard bosses. Example, C'thun was killed in like 2 hours or something after a hot-fix solved the problems. But bosses like M'uru weren't hard because of a bug. They were hard partially because the game was entirely different back then (look at things like how talent trees worked and bosses like Mother Shahraz where everyone had to craft shadow resist gear), and partially because of what you said where the game wasn't as old and people weren't as good at raiding in general. For example, at the point of Sunwell, everyone who was a mage was fire spec EXCEPT my brother and I, who were 2 piece T5 and 4p T6 arcane mages. We jumped into our guilds (each of us were in the top 3 guilds on our realms) undergeared, and would be competitive or beating the established fire mages by knowing when to use missiles or weirdly enough, frostbolt to manage Arcane Blast debuffs and withhold mana. We had crafted our rotation perfectly to only run out of mana when Evocation would end cooldown (so 2 minute rotations) and had a philosophy of "If a boss dies and you have mana, you had damage undealt"
Pre-nerf Ouro was a lot harder, it wasn't just that it was buggy. In addition to being fixed, they also increased the CD on sandblast, made it longer until he submerges and reduced scarab damage. I feel Pre-nerf Ouro would give a lot of guilds trouble considering how poorly a lot of guilds handle the fight in Classic.
I loved Siegecrafter. I always did the belts. I was also on Garrosh's adds and Galakras towers. I loved doing the important solo/small team jobs. Hunter moving while dpsing priviledge.
On Blackfuse, hunter and warlocks could easily get on the belts skipping belt lockout. Warlocks could use a glyph for the eye, that allowed it to place portals where the eye was, jump with eye on the belt after the battle started, place portal, and like that warlocks could just port on the belt every time ignoring lockout. hunters used backflip from the pipe. SO you didnt need to rely on a single person and could have a group of people doin it throughout the whole battle
Ouro being an "optional boss" is why i went all of classic with shadowcraft pants because i never got my 2.5 pants from ouro. I never really went for tier 3 either i just stuck with 2.5 just got my KT kill and was happy with classic
I remember doing firefighter in 10 man with my guild... Damn, that was something else... Having to juggle so many things while keeping up sick dps. Needless to say, we only did him once so we can unlock Algalon and never tried him again. And yeah, Algalon wiped the floor with us too. Back then you didn't have as many "how to" guides and even dungeon journals where it lays out all the abilities a boss has... So we went in completely blind into that fight. And given how he was a "secret" boss, Blizzard didn't tell you about him or his abilities on their sites either. All in all by far the best raiding experience I ever had Ulduar... Golden age of raiding tbh.
Sorry, but the hardest Fight was 4 Horsemen back in the days... no one knew the mechanics and it took us like 400 tries to figure things out from scratch for the world 3rd kill :D IT was a fun fight, loved the marks... Muru was not so bad...Mimiron hard mode was the one I hated most.
I disagree with Asmon's take on M'uru. The best guilds back in TBC are comparable to the top guilds of today in terms of ability to hit peak performance on their class/spec and observe raid mechanics. There are optimizations that have fallen out of the woodwork over time that will make things easier on a rerelease, but the very best raiders of that time period were no slouches and M'uru was tuned to tax those players thoroughly. My guild was stuck on him and had multiple sub 3% attempts. The day Sunwell was nerfed we one shot him with no effort then one-shot Kiljaden. The nerfs were huge and it was basically blizz saying, "who cares? It's time for Lich King and this content is over now." M'uru was the hardest fight I've ever done and it wasn't simply hard because it was early days in the history of WoW. The nerf was actually really demoralizing to our guild. We all felt like we failed because we couldn't beat it before it got nerfed and afterwards there was no way to try it again. Some people actually quit over it and no one cared about raiding again until WotLK... and that content was so easy by comparison it caused more people to quit. We cleared it all before the first server reset. That was a looooong, boring wait for more content.
i think, nerfing raid bosses in hindsight beats beating bosses first try. They are forcing you to hit the skill cap, and if it was classic, and ik they nerfed a bunch of bosses that wouldnt need that with todays players. but releasing bosses that dick you uncontrolably and then nerfing it to fit the higher skill cap is probably one of the best things wow ever did in raiding and i dont even raid. But ik people want a challenge, not a free win. I get sad if our team gets a 5 min win a bg from overpowering ... so putting the bar high, and in some bosses, they might hit it, and slightly nerfing the impossible ones. and making that the gold standard, then making lower tier nerfs i think its the best way to do it. i dont even think blizzard knows truly if a boss is op or not but aiming for op will make us strive, push and go beyond to take it. i feel like that challenge is missing from wow. lower tiers fine. but if i had the ability to join a HC raid, i would want to challenge near impossible odds and overcome it, the highest tier. no one wants a cake walk, they think they do at first when they join raid finder and get gg epics. but its empty, undeserved and ultimately crap
I missed out on raiding in Mists for most of the expansion- my server was practically dead with not many raid guilds and I did not have the ability to transfer off. Not much to regret seeing how a couple of these bosses were from the Pandaria campaign. The last raid I cleared with a guild before I called it quits was Nighthold Heroic.
I enjoyed Spine of Deathwing. I'm a pretty casual player but for me it was a massive feat for me to beat that boss on HC with a guild I went with. I've never really ever got back to doing the newest raids on hardest difficulty since.
That would be like saying if u go back in time, inventing stuff in early 1800 would not be a hard thing. You just can't do that. If you dident kill M'uru prenerf you shoulden't talk since you have no right to do so. Preach never killed M'uru prenerf so whatever he says holds no value. Like Kungen said the only thing that is actually hard in wow is killing the boss first.
@@richardjones8846 not being able to down a boss with a 'regular' raid configures the boss as not easy at least... I also downed muru prenerf on my old guild... And I also witnessed numerous guilds break because of muru... How difficult guilds feel a boss to be, is usually a very good indicator of it's difficulty. And how many guilds crumble because they just can't kill it. And I also agree with most of what you said. And I add that the game was more difficult precisely because players were worse back then. This a factor and should be considered when gaging a boss' difficulty... Imho
MoP was when I raided the absolute most in Heroic and the intro of Mythic. Glad to know these are regarded as hard fights. One guild I healed for disbanded because they couldnt clear Siegecrafter. Man, that AoTC for Garrosh is lookin better and better :)
first boss of hearth of Fear is actually the hardest boss, it was unbeaten for almost a week after the release of the raid i think, and it was only killed after it was nerfed
Siegecrafter 10 man HC was virtually unkillable originally. The bombs were way over tuned for a group with only 10 people. My guild had 500 wipes on that shit the day they fixed them. And we killed it the first pull after. It was such a beautiful fight though. It became like this perfect dance where people are moving to drop blades, kiting fire, positioning for the magnetic pull mechanic to avoid the blades that were dropped AND the ground aoe etc. All whilst stunning, kiting and killing bombs. And NONE of it other than the belt could be delegated.
LOL the mogushun vaults thing. i thought it was just me... I kept taking the first 15 or 20 people that were max level in there in my guild the day it opened. there were skeles everywhere waiting for my raid team to log in lol.
people were doing spine wrong that's why - u can bring three tanks and get those adds to explode - one to lift the armour - the other to blow next to the thing - it will chunk the tentacle down massively icle
My never managed to beat heroic spine pre nerf, we always wiped at likeright at the end. But we had no class stacking or leggos, the day after the nerf we one shot it and madness.
Yogg was pretty much the last Raid boss I did before calling it quits on WoW for a decade or more, HM hodir was super fun with all the damage buff mechanics
my guild during the argent tournament got sick of wiping on the twins. so i suggested we just forget the mechanics, stack up and me and the other resto shaman just spammed chain heal while the druid just went down the entire raid dropping all his hots. it worked. we hated it.
Honestly, those mechanics for Classic Ouro, make it to where only the best of the best can kill this special boss, either you kill him during his fury, or he'll get away. a compliment to OG classic to be sure. hehe
RE: M'uru - I get where you're coming from as far as he would die fast in today's terms but as an average scrub guild raider back in the day, M'uru was (and is) the only boss I got to at the same time as others were still trying to get the WF kill on him. We were able to catch up with dozens of far better guilds than us simply because pre-nerf M'uru was such a ballbreaker of a fight. Going from the Twins to that was a hell of a difficulty jump.
you would think that the minimum for the dev team would be to be ale to complete the raids themselves, because the amount of tuning needed suggests they dont play test the stuff they make
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
The real reason Sargeras stabbed Azeroth is because he was doing Ouro and the boss bugged underground.
Good one
It's UwU .
lol
Makes sense. Fuck Ouro.
OWO
Spine of deathwing can be explained as
"can everyone work together?"
"Ok can everyone not be stupid at the same time?"
One of the realest things Asmon ever said about Wow is that a raid's difficulty can be predicted entirely based on how much of it's mechanics can be delegated to the 5 or so actually competent raiders you have.
Man it was a great fight when everyone did their rolls correctly. I remember explaining the mechanics to various groups who hadn't done it yet was fun
Spine wasn't hard because the mechanics it was the insane burst dps check. You pretty much needed to class stack in order to kill each tendon on one expose phase. Ontop of that I f you stacked shamans for healing link totem the fight was much more manageable.
running old raids with friends usually makes it less boring and more fun, but spine of deathwing makes me regret saying that. i've wiped so many times because they don't know how to sit still.
I did dragon soul a couple times but now I've forgotten how to do it so when the ptr server works again I'll go do it
Never played WOW in my whole life but I love to see the mechs required for every single boss and the knowledge involved
Likewise.
U know classic?
Time to start playing
I was like you, but now I'm leaving up a druid on classic wow
Why not give it a try i never understand comments like these
Asmon: This raid is so good because players have to cooperate, think, be a team!
Also Asmon: I will throw the entire raid attempt if i wont have the biggest DPS
....
You may be new here, but Asmongold is kind of a massive hypocrite. He's fine with using his stream to mass gank/camp others, but hates when a group of stream snipers kill/camp him. He openly welcomes donations of gold, mounts, removed transmog, help completing things, etc, but decries boosts and buying gold.
(Ya, I get some will say that's just acting, but when he reserves and gets all the gear and accepts gold for funny reactions/acting - CRAZY how it's always to his benefit, with exception to the few times he's griefed beyond his control).
@@HaloLvl43Legit Riiiiiiiight....
@@HaloLvl43Legit geeez dude i can smell the salt from here lol
it's not about being a team, it's about everyone competing for the biggest dps just like him
@@olwe666 Is it salt? It's literal truth.
I mean.. what the original commenter refers to is a perfect example.
I don't watch Asmongolds stuff, only the few things here n there but I know how he acts from what I've seen. I've heard him say those exact things.
'I ruined everyones experience just because a warlock out DPS'd me, hahah doood and it was so fucking funny'
Denying that Asmon isn't that just proves to everyone you're stuck on your knees infront of him with your throat full.
Regardless of if you think hes entertaining or not, the guy is the biggest manchild hypocrite.
That's just the fact of it.
The thing with Vael that isnt being talked about, that fight in particular from the Blizzard dev team coming from Everquest (Rob Pardo, Tigole, and the other guys from Blizz) was the first time a raid boss had been a real dps check. So in raiding it was a huge evolution from the idea of just healing tanks and dodging aoe's. At that point, it was a completely new idea.
Blizzard saw how horribly the community reacted to the anima boss in Throne of Thunder and then proceeded to base an entire expansion off that concept
As a former Vanilla raider (went all the way to Kel'thuzad at lv 60 which was very rare), I just want to rectify the misconception that modern WoW players have about Vaelastrasz. Vael was never, EVER considered hard, even during Vanilla.
And no, the bomb mechanic was never a problem. Heck, Baron Geddon had a bomb as well and anyone unable to deal with Geddon's mechanic did not belong in BWL anyway. The bomb wasn't even what killed peoples the most during the enrage, despite the fact that none of the mechanic were hard anyway.
The reason he was called guild breaker wasn't because it was hard. It was because he was a lag engine. Basically as soon as you were pulling him, the whole raid would lag terribly. it was so BAD, that it would be felt by other guilds inside BWL in their own raid instance, as all the BWL instances were impacted to a lesser degree.
Back then, every zone had a common chat dedicated to it, and it includes raid instance, where peoples inside BWL but in different instances could communicate freely. And I'll tell you, it wasn't rare to suddenly have peoples complaining about lag and asking which guild was pulling Vaelastrasz ; and as soon as they were finished, the lag would go away.
Now while lag is always bad, it was especially bad against Vael. Because it's a very short fight, and a DPS check, but lag lower your DPS. So it means that if it lags consistently, your raid needs higher gear than it would normally need to beat it. And... here's the catch : at this point in time, your only source of gear to get better gear were the 10 bosses of MC, dropping 2 pieces of gear each for 40 peoples ONCE PER WEEK, and Razorgore. That's around 22 pieces of loot for 40 peoples per week, and the more your raid is geared up, the higher the chance to have gear pieces that all the peoples that need it already have.
And... that was pretty much it. Until you could make for the difference brought in by the lag, your guild would wipe in chain on Vael because no one could improve their gear in any decent manner outside of waiting more weeks for potential loots. And you would wipe a lot, because Vael was in the second room of the instance and every fight would last less than 3 minutes.
Want a proof of what I advance ? The lag was eventually fixed( in1.9 IIRC), as an official part of the patch note even. And the very day it was fixed, Vael stopped being a problem for any guild still struggling with him. The number of guilds having him down jumped on patch day and kept increasing in the following week; and after that, you never really saw him bully any guild ever again. The reign of terror of Vaelastrasz ended the very day he stopped being laggy. That's it, really. He was tuned by the devs with no lag in mind, so he was a DPS check that was higher than intended due to lag, and players had almost zero way to increase their DPS quickly when arriving on him. And the faster they went through the previous content, the worse it often was, since they were even less geared when reaching him for the first time.
Lag was one of the major reason raiding guild were breaking in vanilla. Not just Vael lag, but regular server lag and server problems as well. Our server had problems during 2 months, it was impossible to do any raiding between 8 and 10 pm every day for 2 months. Most advanced raiding guild on our server disintegrated during that time, or they migrated on server clusters that didn't have that problem.
It may feel unthinkable nowadays but lag and other technicities were some of the most terrible enemies for many raiding guilds. And that's also why when you put back classic wow servers without this problem, you have a hard time understanding why guilds struggled so hard to advance.
I remember this, holy hell. Good comment.
Thanks for putting your Masters thesis in UA-cam comments.
@@GregorySnipe having done a master thesis, calling the above comment a master thesis only shows that you've never done one, but okay :)
@@zefyrisd69 LMAO, I'm a PHD. Get a life nerd.👍🏿
@@zefyrisd69 Okay, do you want a cookie or something?
It's kinda interesting how he goes from "This fight was well designed, I loved it because it's mechanics prevented bad players from getting carried by good players. Having the raid be contingent on the individual performance of everyone is great :)" to "I hated this boss because it was constantly ruined by one bad player, fucking shamans >:("
Hogger was my first true Hardcore experience! Such a Titan, shame he weren't on the list!
Best one, best one.
10/10
we may yet see him in SL :)
Hogger is the most dangerous furry in wow
pointless post. Hogger isnt a boss. and dont go say oh but what about stockades. Nope thats not the real stockades and u obviously meant the one in elwynn forest
@@joshy4476 He was a raid boss at BlizzCon. I forget what year, but basically the best raiders at the time fought pairs of bosses beneath the Argent Tournament, and in the end, the final raid boss was Hogger, who decimated the raid group.
I remember back in the day when I played TBC, my friend was suprised that we strugle on Illidan, he said it's fucking easy.
I asked him how did they do it, and he said 4 people stayed back to ress the dead. Then I just realized he's playing on private server and it was full of bugs 🤣
Well now days the pre cata private servers are doin better job than blizzard itself,
@@alirezaabz654 I'm on warmanes lordareon server and yes that is accurate
@@adastial2104 Except pets.
@@adastial2104 Killing BQL 3 seconds into her enrage is fcking tough.
@@jozokrstanovic9040 I know its bs sometimes
I loved the aesthetic of the Star Auger boss room. The walls falling away to different locations in space was so fucking cool.
Mythic Fallen Avatar almost turned me into a benzo addict
Imagine wow being your gateway drug
I quit raiding after killing him. Sadly my guild killed KJ a month after, but I was just burned out after Avatar.
@@nicki6355 same here my dude that shit just murdered me and after that I was forced into kj just because I was our best tank at the time
Wow was my gateway drug to cocaine.
@@jacobvandenberghe4222 I was on a lot of absinthe during the last 2 tiers of legion
We've come to a time where people has to be told how things were in pandaria lol.
I shouldn't feel old when you say that, but I do.
@@crabato001 MoP is quickly heading towards being 9 years old. That's right, in a couple of months MoP will be closer to WoW's original release date than present day (2004 - Sep. 25 2012 (MoP release, 8 years) 2012 - 2021 (Current, 9 years).
Now you can feel properly old like the rest of us.
@@Lewtable That means that I was 12 when I played MoP... Didn't realise I was so young when I played WoW heavily thats crazy appreciate the research thats very interesting
@@Lewtable means I was 10 Jesus
So it's official, being in my 30's and never playing WOW even though I play neverwinter with max level characters and elder scrolls as well.. I always wondered about why I never played WOW. After stumbling onto your channel I ended up consuming all your videos up until the point I had to try it myself. So we have come to the point where I got the game and playing everyday. I know I'm late to the party, but I made it. Thank you for your video content and getting me into this game, it is worth the praise it gets.
welcome to the rest of your life friend
Welcome brother, for in the Light we are one! - Tyr
Welcome to the club.
Used to love neverwinter nights when I was a kid
Welcome to our world.
Siegecrafter black fuse the most underrated boss... such a shame whoever designed this boss needs a raise, I remember every single part of this fight for all roles and I never got tired of it back then.
Such a shame this boss is overlooked by many nowadays :(
Not if you were a hunter, spent every attempt doing conveyor all day.
They're probably not even at the company anymore given how things have been going. I still haven't forgiven them for firing Xelnath after what he did for warlocks in MoP.
@@JagerFrostTroll Mop destroyed warrior class design, so I'm always going to be super biased towards hating it.
@@Tueur562 thats all I did as well, I was a rogue.
The guy who designed Siegecraft Blackfuse, was apparently the same guy who designed Tectus. Which apparently people hated.
The problem with Muru back then (and in general with the whole SWP raid) was that every guild had to cope with the totally different raid setups for each of the 6 bosses and find players/classes with the skill and gear needed to accomodate all the different raid comps. Also none of the raid members had full or close to full BIS gear to trivialise the fights. On most private servers there is no such problem as most players have multiple alts and also the content is farmed for years and years since there is no expansion change. I played on both retail and on a pretty good and accurately scripted private server and the difference is huge. For example on official TBC my fury dps war did 2.9K dps on KJ (with 1/3 of my gear BIS) while on the private server when I reached full BIS gear my fury jumped to around 4K average with my best kill at 4.6k, same applies to every other class/role. The benefit of today's player base is the amount of time TBC and every other old content was out and the amount of info there is on those encounters that they can now fine tune everything to make it easier.
Everyone: We loved Ulduar hardmodes! They were really fun to play and interesting mechanics!
literally Blizzard: Yeah lets never do them again pretty much!
You think you know what you want but you don't
@@M4XD4B0ZZ I thought i knew what i wanted in wow
And yet People mainly mythic raiders struggles on that during timewalk
The problem were the timebased hardmodes i remember so many trys you are at 20% and the Raidlead said: Hmm i'm not sure we make it lets try again. Only because he was scared we didnt make it in time and need to wait a whole week.
@Wonder of U The problem with that is it means playing BfA, an expansion so soul-searingly awful I've pretty much sworn off the game for life now.
I knew M'uru was gonna take number one, I was active player during that time and closely folowed the whole Nihilum-SK Gaming race which was by far the most interesting thing then. Class stacking, everyone leatherworking to stack BL, chain heal and shadowbolt galore and all Kungen trash talk. I miss those times. :)
Interesting. The expression "anima" used for that golem boss. Years later we heard anima again in Shadowlands.
@Florian Can be "duhh" for u. But nobody in any video about lore said anything about what I said. So, is not so duhh as u want to be.
Fallen Avatar and Spine of Deathwing put the other eight bosses to absolute shame.
Restless Cabal should’ve been on here, honestly.
I could not agree more, healing in MoP was honestly amazing! Even though it was dominated by Discipline Priest, every healer was very fun to play
You know these fights were hard when you see Asmon get legit triggered when it comes up.
For chat it was sub rogues on spine, you needed the 1 min CD shadow dance to be up for every plate. After nerf you could get away with combat which was far easier to play and therefore more consistent.
The nefarion stacking was also viable due an unintended consequence of the mechanics and feral druids, low geared fearals were fine. The stacking on spine was a bit more impressive as you needed legendary geared mages and rogues which were rare. Guilds had to aggressively poach players to get the fight down.
When Asmond mentioned Mogushan Vaults: I loved the first boss as a main tank. The communication between the other tank and me back then felt like it was a dance where we alternated the calls and the lead who called the swaps. Everybody in voice shut up but the tanks and when it ran smoothly, we knew we did our job well. Same was with the endboss in heart of fear, when we had to tank the adds between the phase-changes.
Don't forget that Spine of Deathwing also did barrel rolls in addition to everything else which just kicked you off its back if you didn't stand in the tentacle pools. And the drums requirement in Sunwell Plateau was initially for Brutallus since it was a DPS check.
jesus christ i’ve never met someone who emotes so much with their eyebrows
i love it
Was looking for this comment I wonder if he some sort of disorder lol
There's just something so satisfying about explaining mechanics or setting up a group to defeat a hard boss.
A sense of order and hope that dissipates when the fight actually happens :D
Raid leader should be a legitimate resume qualifier
Honestly I feel like the boss for the Warlock green fire quest should have been an honorable mention. I knew SOO many people who just gave up because they couldn't do it. It took me probably 30+ attempts to get the kill
Dark anima. I remember my builds first clear, we were so close just a tank 2 dps and a healer for like the last 45 seconds. Just the shadow priest last alive died and 1 second after she died the shadow priest dots killed it and it counted we all screamed it was amazing
i dont play wow but i like having asmon rambling about things i dont understand in the background
Mythic Avatar made me quit WoW for almost 3 years. Took my guild 487 pulls. I gave up at 419 and quit the game until I started playing again a couple months ago.
I raided sunwell and muru and we never got the kill before the nerf think closest we got was 20% it was INSANELY hard at the time as the step up on difficulty was like nothing us players at the time had ever experienced, brings back great fond memories though of some amazing times
I remember Animus. My raid group was stuck on him and couldnt get past. We almost did but then WoD came out and the resulting bad/anger from being stuck on Animus caused our group to break up within the frist couple tries of raiding in WoD.
you were working on animus for the entire 10 months that siege of orgrimmar was out?
@@Fidhife we took a break at the start of seige because our raid leader ninja transferred due to stress from doing animus so long. We voted as a group to give up animus and go to seige but we didn't really have the heart to raid anymore. We did it a bit on and off but then tried to regroup for real when WoD came out but it didn't work out. We did a couple runs but most people were just burnt out and preferred to go casual. The ones that still wanted to raid left to other groups.
How is Vael on the list but not The Four Horsemen of the original Naxx? They weren't end bosses, just the end of a wing
I hated the Spine of Deathwing boss. No way a boss that difficult shouldn’t be the last boss. Come on Blizzard.
Spine was definitely rewarding tho when you downed it.
Spine of Deathwing, the only "old raid/gold farm" boss that takes more than 30 seconds to beat - I usually skip it altogether because this fight is 5 minutes of lame.
i remember soloing blackfuse belt mechanic - because as a hunter it was possible to use disengage to get up there over and over.
i loved having that job and my raid trusting me with it
Spine was a pain for sure during release. When it was soloable, not too bad, just gotta keep going back and forth lol. If i brought a friend, i had them die, easier to do myself then trust they wont flip him
BEWARE!
BEWARE!
BEWARE!
BEWARE!
BEWARE!
That, or if you had any sort of self heal or leech you could just root yourself in one of the tentacle spawn locations.
Spine of death wing was the biggest pain.. I wish after a few times of clearing it you get the option to skip it
most of these fights are pretty damn hard, but man i'm with asmon. i straight up hate dark animus. there were always someone who didn't know what to do. HC version was pure chaos.
"Retail players are much better than classic players" - Chat loses its shit calling every classic player shit, not realising most classic players play / have played retail and agree cause they have seen both games lmao. But yea... Threat is a hard mechanic when you gotta pump for those arbitrary numbers.
I think he said better raiders
@@hatenuke1 lol objectively false. You're trash at the game
No, most classic players stay away from retail. Classic doesn't allow for skilled gameplay so most of the players are trash
I remember killing hc spine for the first time at a LAN party with my guild. I was scribbling up the positioning of everyone on a whiteboard after a bunch of attempts and we finally got it
Siege of Org was a great raid. Thok in particular was sooooooooo awesome on heroic/mythic.
Dark Animus was basically like setting up domino's during an earthquake.
I always thought Spine of Deathwing was a crazy-cool idea for a fight, even if it was frustrating. The idea of parachuting onto the back of a dragon aspect, trying to pry loose plates while balancing on his back, while he's flying and doing barrel rolls... Crazy Cool.
I feel like the bosses that were hard "Because it was buggy" aren't hard bosses. Example, C'thun was killed in like 2 hours or something after a hot-fix solved the problems.
But bosses like M'uru weren't hard because of a bug. They were hard partially because the game was entirely different back then (look at things like how talent trees worked and bosses like Mother Shahraz where everyone had to craft shadow resist gear), and partially because of what you said where the game wasn't as old and people weren't as good at raiding in general.
For example, at the point of Sunwell, everyone who was a mage was fire spec EXCEPT my brother and I, who were 2 piece T5 and 4p T6 arcane mages. We jumped into our guilds (each of us were in the top 3 guilds on our realms) undergeared, and would be competitive or beating the established fire mages by knowing when to use missiles or weirdly enough, frostbolt to manage Arcane Blast debuffs and withhold mana. We had crafted our rotation perfectly to only run out of mana when Evocation would end cooldown (so 2 minute rotations) and had a philosophy of "If a boss dies and you have mana, you had damage undealt"
I remember healing spine of deathwing on heroic back in the day as a resto druid, I was sweating.
Pre-nerf Ouro was a lot harder, it wasn't just that it was buggy. In addition to being fixed, they also increased the CD on sandblast, made it longer until he submerges and reduced scarab damage. I feel Pre-nerf Ouro would give a lot of guilds trouble considering how poorly a lot of guilds handle the fight in Classic.
I loved Siegecrafter. I always did the belts.
I was also on Garrosh's adds and Galakras towers. I loved doing the important solo/small team jobs.
Hunter moving while dpsing priviledge.
chromie, make it happen we can replay those raids, that would be awesome.
On Blackfuse, hunter and warlocks could easily get on the belts skipping belt lockout. Warlocks could use a glyph for the eye, that allowed it to place portals where the eye was, jump with eye on the belt after the battle started, place portal, and like that warlocks could just port on the belt every time ignoring lockout. hunters used backflip from the pipe. SO you didnt need to rely on a single person and could have a group of people doin it throughout the whole battle
Anima golem could move the healthbar when you were 110 in legion. Superstrong enrage.
Ouro being an "optional boss" is why i went all of classic with shadowcraft pants because i never got my 2.5 pants from ouro. I never really went for tier 3 either i just stuck with 2.5 just got my KT kill and was happy with classic
Fetid devourer was mathematically impossible. Once he was changed they killed him.
29:31 Yogg 0 was first killed by the Stars with a bunch of warlocks not Paragon.
Humm, why is Rextroy not on the list?
Blizzard hate him ! See how he made PvP scaling look like a joke in ONE WEIRD TRICK !!! Click here, learn the truth now !
There is another who goes unnoticed, the Russian paladin anaxer he has a channel too
totally agree that healing in MOP was the best. i was on 5 different raid teams as 5 different healer alts, i loved it so much
OMG :D thats like at LEAST 10 raid appointments per week then, isn't it? How did u manage that?
@@Freakschwimmer only 1 raid team was 2 nights a week. The rest were just 1 per week
@@moofy69so…9. He said “at least 10.” Your reaction makes it seem like the commenter was way off. He was off by one.
@@jluchette no. Only 1 was 2 days, the other 4 were 1 day. That's a total of 6. Even still, I was simply correcting them, I wasn't putting them down
M'uru was harder than Kil'Jaeden both on progress and farm. That seed spam as a lock..
They really do need to bring back fights like Siegecrafter and Paragons of Klaxxi. Such awesome fights, Thok too as a healer check
I love how Asmong talks as he wasn't trash himself at raiding lol
I remember doing firefighter in 10 man with my guild... Damn, that was something else... Having to juggle so many things while keeping up sick dps. Needless to say, we only did him once so we can unlock Algalon and never tried him again. And yeah, Algalon wiped the floor with us too. Back then you didn't have as many "how to" guides and even dungeon journals where it lays out all the abilities a boss has... So we went in completely blind into that fight. And given how he was a "secret" boss, Blizzard didn't tell you about him or his abilities on their sites either. All in all by far the best raiding experience I ever had Ulduar... Golden age of raiding tbh.
Asmongold may not remember this guy, but when it was content, a man named Raegwyn solod siegecrafter.
Wait does a vid exist I don't remember that
@@adastial2104 yup just search raegwyn
Wasnt it a dk? Think I rememeber it
@@antoniogonzalez4252 yes he is a dk
30:40 my god I remember Hodir HM in 10 man. Significantly worse than 25 man... those beams of light were a godsend for healers
Raegwyn also solod animus when it was content
I loved that dark animus fight on heroic. I played a warlock and tanked 3 constucts for our group (2 on VW, 1 on me). Juggling that was a blast.
ONE WORD: EYEBROWS
Lmao
Sorry, but the hardest Fight was 4 Horsemen back in the days... no one knew the mechanics and it took us like 400 tries to figure things out from scratch for the world 3rd kill :D
IT was a fun fight, loved the marks... Muru was not so bad...Mimiron hard mode was the one I hated most.
I disagree with Asmon's take on M'uru. The best guilds back in TBC are comparable to the top guilds of today in terms of ability to hit peak performance on their class/spec and observe raid mechanics. There are optimizations that have fallen out of the woodwork over time that will make things easier on a rerelease, but the very best raiders of that time period were no slouches and M'uru was tuned to tax those players thoroughly. My guild was stuck on him and had multiple sub 3% attempts. The day Sunwell was nerfed we one shot him with no effort then one-shot Kiljaden. The nerfs were huge and it was basically blizz saying, "who cares? It's time for Lich King and this content is over now." M'uru was the hardest fight I've ever done and it wasn't simply hard because it was early days in the history of WoW. The nerf was actually really demoralizing to our guild. We all felt like we failed because we couldn't beat it before it got nerfed and afterwards there was no way to try it again. Some people actually quit over it and no one cared about raiding again until WotLK... and that content was so easy by comparison it caused more people to quit. We cleared it all before the first server reset. That was a looooong, boring wait for more content.
I remember tanking the adds on my BDK, but that was in the day when blood shields were massive.
i think, nerfing raid bosses in hindsight beats beating bosses first try. They are forcing you to hit the skill cap, and if it was classic, and ik they nerfed a bunch of bosses that wouldnt need that with todays players. but releasing bosses that dick you uncontrolably and then nerfing it to fit the higher skill cap is probably one of the best things wow ever did in raiding and i dont even raid. But ik people want a challenge, not a free win. I get sad if our team gets a 5 min win a bg from overpowering ... so putting the bar high, and in some bosses, they might hit it, and slightly nerfing the impossible ones. and making that the gold standard, then making lower tier nerfs i think its the best way to do it. i dont even think blizzard knows truly if a boss is op or not but aiming for op will make us strive, push and go beyond to take it. i feel like that challenge is missing from wow. lower tiers fine. but if i had the ability to join a HC raid, i would want to challenge near impossible odds and overcome it, the highest tier.
no one wants a cake walk, they think they do at first when they join raid finder and get gg epics. but its empty, undeserved and ultimately crap
47:07 I can confirm Muru was rough even in tbc classic. You meed very strong aoe and good shot calling
Asmond, keep the hair going on for as long as possible brother, screw the haters!
You're probably bald to PeepeLaugh
@@nicklashansen2519 actually grew it out since the start of the human mal-ware outbreak in april. Long AFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
@@danielcarazas6911 same dude and woman love it
@@M4XD4B0ZZ word to that! Shake N Bake brother
I missed out on raiding in Mists for most of the expansion- my server was practically dead with not many raid guilds and I did not have the ability to transfer off. Not much to regret seeing how a couple of these bosses were from the Pandaria campaign.
The last raid I cleared with a guild before I called it quits was Nighthold Heroic.
Bald man bad
I enjoyed Spine of Deathwing. I'm a pretty casual player but for me it was a massive feat for me to beat that boss on HC with a guild I went with. I've never really ever got back to doing the newest raids on hardest difficulty since.
I believe Preach even has a video dispelling the myth of M'uru being a hard boss.
That would be like saying if u go back in time, inventing stuff in early 1800 would not be a hard thing. You just can't do that. If you dident kill M'uru prenerf you shoulden't talk since you have no right to do so. Preach never killed M'uru prenerf so whatever he says holds no value. Like Kungen said the only thing that is actually hard in wow is killing the boss first.
Spine of Deathwing was a nightmare on Heroic. I remember healing it, and oh boy. Raid leader had a breakdown on vent.
haven't watched yet ... but if M'uru is not number one this is just wrong
@@richardjones8846 not being able to down a boss with a 'regular' raid configures the boss as not easy at least... I also downed muru prenerf on my old guild... And I also witnessed numerous guilds break because of muru...
How difficult guilds feel a boss to be, is usually a very good indicator of it's difficulty. And how many guilds crumble because they just can't kill it.
And I also agree with most of what you said.
And I add that the game was more difficult precisely because players were worse back then. This a factor and should be considered when gaging a boss' difficulty...
Imho
Ok, buddy.
Heroic siegecrafter was so much fun. I absolutely loved SoO in it's entirety
Early as always
Just like the onset of the male pattern baldness...
How about this one, get a life. 😄😄😅😅😅
Uff the time of Uldir and the idea of the hard modes, make me cry. The idea of this was amazing. Damn this was so gorgerous.
Q: Do people really watch 52 minutes of Asmongold? Upvote if you do!
MoP was when I raided the absolute most in Heroic and the intro of Mythic. Glad to know these are regarded as hard fights. One guild I healed for disbanded because they couldnt clear Siegecrafter. Man, that AoTC for Garrosh is lookin better and better :)
first boss of hearth of Fear is actually the hardest boss, it was unbeaten for almost a week after the release of the raid i think, and it was only killed after it was nerfed
Holy Pala was sick in DS cata. And it was fun to play him... Remember healing solo Ultaxion hc.
Siegecrafter 10 man HC was virtually unkillable originally. The bombs were way over tuned for a group with only 10 people. My guild had 500 wipes on that shit the day they fixed them. And we killed it the first pull after.
It was such a beautiful fight though. It became like this perfect dance where people are moving to drop blades, kiting fire, positioning for the magnetic pull mechanic to avoid the blades that were dropped AND the ground aoe etc. All whilst stunning, kiting and killing bombs. And NONE of it other than the belt could be delegated.
I got world 20th heroic stone guards but I died doing almost double everyone else's dps because I had 2 piece ha
Haha I remember having the legendary dagger on spine of deathwing, was fun times to have the stacks and blow out the plates.
LOL the mogushun vaults thing. i thought it was just me... I kept taking the first 15 or 20 people that were max level in there in my guild the day it opened. there were skeles everywhere waiting for my raid team to log in lol.
I was never aloud to use my main (DK) and always told to jump on my alt (rogue) because of dps burst on spine of deathwing.
people were doing spine wrong that's why - u can bring three tanks and get those adds to explode - one to lift the armour - the other to blow next to the thing - it will chunk the tentacle down massively
icle
My never managed to beat heroic spine pre nerf, we always wiped at likeright at the end. But we had no class stacking or leggos, the day after the nerf we one shot it and madness.
Yogg was pretty much the last Raid boss I did before calling it quits on WoW for a decade or more, HM hodir was super fun with all the damage buff mechanics
my guild during the argent tournament got sick of wiping on the twins. so i suggested we just forget the mechanics, stack up and me and the other resto shaman just spammed chain heal while the druid just went down the entire raid dropping all his hots. it worked. we hated it.
Honestly, those mechanics for Classic Ouro, make it to where only the best of the best can kill this special boss, either you kill him during his fury, or he'll get away. a compliment to OG classic to be sure. hehe
I was a DK off tank for Spine of DW. That was rough. But made server first feel that much better.
RE: M'uru - I get where you're coming from as far as he would die fast in today's terms but as an average scrub guild raider back in the day, M'uru was (and is) the only boss I got to at the same time as others were still trying to get the WF kill on him. We were able to catch up with dozens of far better guilds than us simply because pre-nerf M'uru was such a ballbreaker of a fight. Going from the Twins to that was a hell of a difficulty jump.
Also he's still hard af in private servers.
Private server guilds still have players get max LW for Sunwell. But private servers are often tuned up.
you would think that the minimum for the dev team would be to be ale to complete the raids themselves, because the amount of tuning needed suggests they dont play test the stuff they make
@0:53 Does anyone know how he gets camera angles like??? Would love if someone could help me! thank you.
We wiped for a total of 25 hours straight on vael before getting it.. I know it was a gear check, but I will never forget that one.
Vael had a 1hour despawn timer originally so you could only try 1hr each 4 hrs when the raid soft reseted.