I already know this will be a banger. Also, sorry this wasn't uploaded 24 hours in advance for our members. Wanted to make sure I could drop this quick before the weekend! Thanks everyone for the support and please subscribe/like!
Hey Hugo, this is Umbreon. I literally talked to Jason about this a few days ago LOL Before you joined smashboards in like 2002-2004 era, we had a term for the top tier called FFS- Fox Falco Sheik. It was understood that they were the best, but a part of that is that we still played with 5 stocks (more room for variance), with items, and on a much wider range of stages. All of those things favor those 3 characters, and they really were the best in the game at that time. It's true that Ken changed that and put Marth in the top tier, but the changing ruleset maybe helped along the way. Also it's been 20 years and I'm still right, Fox > Sheik. Destruction.
I want you to know the marth posts you made about PPU and tai in 2013 are goated resources with a lot of great things to think about while playing marth, and I still reference them to this day, mad props I wish I could find gameplay of your melee marth all I can find is PM :(
@@KairosTho I didn't play Marth in Melee. I started off in Melee as a (totally unremarkable) Fox player not because he was good but because I liked him a lot coming from Smash 64. Of course, I came to hate Marth like every Fox player, and solved the character from the other side. If you are still trying to learn Marth to this day, I have one last piece of advice: Marth is the only character where you have the common situation in competitive play, where you can hit the opponent and be negative on hit because it was a blade hit (or the opponent is like me and understands to encourage blade hits for an advantage state). You can solve this with a diehard discipline in basing your play around DD and grab (and dtilt when the opponent cannot dash for whatever reason, near the edge etc). You can still find easy examples of this with Zain's DD play on Marth / Roy, or PPMDs legacy dashdancing on Marth. Avoid M2K and Ken videos. Ken's play is too outdated to be useful and M2K started crutching on fair later in his career, which doesn't work vs faster characters that can punish your L cancel or subsequent dashback.
@@Finneagan "They" has been used as singular from time to time for hundreds of years. We all do it sometimes "What's so and so been up to?" "Oh you know they've been busy...." yada yada. Get over it
@@chase5833 No we haven't lmao, you're making this shit up. It sounds so stupid. It can also be genuinely confusing when you don't have the context that the person speaking has gender studies brain rot.
At 12:13 he makes an excellent point if we were to send our best back in time they would pose an actual challenge to isai and he would have to truly go all out and destroy whoever we sent they may actually die if isai tried maybe we shouldn’t send someone back to be safe
I said it in the community post and I stand by it; we send back Blur with practice. He narrowly beats the 2002-2007 crowd for however long he stays there, tells them about how great of a player that he is, and they think to themselves that if this is our champion we sent back in time that they'll be able to get that good really quickly
Let me explain. I was just wondering why Ganondorf is in the very middle of the tiers. Before I get into what I mean, allow me to first put out there that I have been playing for years, and I have watched MANY videos of the tournament masters. My brother and I found out, through years of play, literally EVERY advanced technique in the game, except the wavedash, which we stumbled upon, but wrote off as simply hilarious. I was surprised to find that all the wacky observations we have encountered and adapted are actually defined in the glossary in the sticky topic above! Three of the particularly surprising terms that I could not believe had been widely known and utilized were the Phantom Hit (I just thought I had a glitchy game) and that effect where recovering at the right time from attacks that sent you flying results in an upward boost if you jump out/air dodge/whatever early enough (I cannot remember what it was called in the sticky), and the waveland. Now, I have been using Ganondorf against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Ganon at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Ganondorf has his air forward. We call it 'The Punch.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages. If he misses, he can just do his A punch if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Ganondorf is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Ganondorf Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B). Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his wavedash, which, with Ganondorf, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Wavesmashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Punch and killed you opponent by then. Even though he has to fight mostly in the air, 3 of his 4 air attacks are pretty fast, and are quite massive. A major advantage he has is that nearly all his attacks move the opponent considerably, and can topple him from 0%, so his opponent gets little to no counterattack opportunity. The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters. I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never actually prove anything. Is there online for this somewhere, or is that simply wishful thinking? If not, please do not yell at me and stuff until you at least check out The Punch. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give Ganondorf another shot and tell me what you thnk. Final Comment: People have a tendency to think that posts from newcomers to a board but veterans of its respective game are saying they are better than everyone else, regardles of what the post actually says. Please note that I did not say 'I am better than you' or 'Ganon is better than Fox.' I said, essentially: 'Ganon seems to be great. These are his strengths. He may top Fox. Check him out and see if you agree.' I will say, however, that I am a full master of Ganondorf. Please give Ganondorf a second look before responding so you know where I am coming from!
As a doc kid I did the thing where I made a smashboards account that I proceeded to never use because everything was organized on Facebook by then lmao, so it’s fun to see these threads. Also good lord it’s been almost 10 years since melee came back to evo
I'm definitely in the Fabian chain... I beat Silentwolf once...in teams. The only difference is I would be the one leaning back instead of forward. Too many people hadn't heard of deoderant :P (I'm sure that's still true...) God, smashboards in general is just such a trip looking back at it. I made an account back in 2005, but barely have any posts, and a lot of it had to do with people using so many terms like "frame weight" that I didn't even know existed! So, how could I argue against it? Lol
I can't believe we used to put our address online in that weird Google maps mod in like . I met up with Atlus, J666, and NES on Blythe Street in 2007 which you should know Hugo is not the safest street in the 818 🤣
Think about [M2K calling shiek a he to avoid spoilers] from the time frame though: OoT came out November '98 and M2k posted this just over 4 years after OoT came out. Considering how people get cagey about spoilers even for last gen games, it would make sense why he'd do that. Hugs is no stranger to this, but doesn't it make you feel old?
Yeah the melee tournaments before wave dashing and L canceling rules etc were based on emotional saltiness and then when they were discovered then there was whiny rules etc then finally MLG took over and make it more fair for a while. Then David's stupid rule etc.. make the rules we have today been playing for 20+ years now.
I already know this will be a banger.
Also, sorry this wasn't uploaded 24 hours in advance for our members. Wanted to make sure I could drop this quick before the weekend! Thanks everyone for the support and please subscribe/like!
Hell yes it's a banger, even bigger banger when you respond
@@pumpofwallstreet In record time baby
Hey Hugo, this is Umbreon. I literally talked to Jason about this a few days ago LOL
Before you joined smashboards in like 2002-2004 era, we had a term for the top tier called FFS- Fox Falco Sheik. It was understood that they were the best, but a part of that is that we still played with 5 stocks (more room for variance), with items, and on a much wider range of stages. All of those things favor those 3 characters, and they really were the best in the game at that time. It's true that Ken changed that and put Marth in the top tier, but the changing ruleset maybe helped along the way.
Also it's been 20 years and I'm still right, Fox > Sheik. Destruction.
Omg what an honor
I want you to know the marth posts you made about PPU and tai in 2013 are goated resources with a lot of great things to think about while playing marth, and I still reference them to this day, mad props I wish I could find gameplay of your melee marth all I can find is PM :(
@@KairosTho I didn't play Marth in Melee. I started off in Melee as a (totally unremarkable) Fox player not because he was good but because I liked him a lot coming from Smash 64. Of course, I came to hate Marth like every Fox player, and solved the character from the other side.
If you are still trying to learn Marth to this day, I have one last piece of advice: Marth is the only character where you have the common situation in competitive play, where you can hit the opponent and be negative on hit because it was a blade hit (or the opponent is like me and understands to encourage blade hits for an advantage state). You can solve this with a diehard discipline in basing your play around DD and grab (and dtilt when the opponent cannot dash for whatever reason, near the edge etc). You can still find easy examples of this with Zain's DD play on Marth / Roy, or PPMDs legacy dashdancing on Marth. Avoid M2K and Ken videos. Ken's play is too outdated to be useful and M2K started crutching on fair later in his career, which doesn't work vs faster characters that can punish your L cancel or subsequent dashback.
u wot
@@Nightwalker86 thank you for the response!
Whoa just seeing "SmashBoards" hit me with a sense of eternity
A place not seen for me in YEARS
If it ain’t a headboard we ain’t smashing near it.
Right? Cuz we’re all such chads.
Please someone agree
I miss when smashboards was the place
I miss the forum era so fucking much. Discord is more convenient for sure but nothing is as dope as a forum
@@SomniaCE there is reddit.
Using ambiguous pronouns to avoid Ocarina of Time spoilers, man that’s actually such a product of its time. 😂
another product was just not saying they, didnt even cross peoples minds lmao
@@smoceany9478yeah no shit because using a plural pronoun for a single person is stupid
@@Finneagan "They" has been used as singular from time to time for hundreds of years. We all do it sometimes
"What's so and so been up to?" "Oh you know they've been busy...." yada yada. Get over it
@@chase5833 No we haven't lmao, you're making this shit up. It sounds so stupid. It can also be genuinely confusing when you don't have the context that the person speaking has gender studies brain rot.
@@chase5833that would be to refer to multiple people… you tried so hard to sound smart
LOL
Hi King
my fave has to be randomly finding hungrybox's old phone number on smash boards
At 12:13 he makes an excellent point if we were to send our best back in time they would pose an actual challenge to isai and he would have to truly go all out and destroy whoever we sent they may actually die if isai tried maybe we shouldn’t send someone back to be safe
I want you all to know that Hugs posted that Chain Astrology post when he was 23 years old (an actual adult).
I said it in the community post and I stand by it; we send back Blur with practice.
He narrowly beats the 2002-2007 crowd for however long he stays there, tells them about how great of a player that he is, and they think to themselves that if this is our champion we sent back in time that they'll be able to get that good really quickly
Sending smashers to the past is such an entertaining idea. You gotta make it a full vid
There was a time period into the 2010’s where the consensus was that Fox required too high of skill to ever win super majors
Please make more of these, lol
Most definitely will. Thanks for helping the algo with the comment lmao
This was fantastic. Updated smash horoscopes when??
I'd love to see a Smash Chains format like this in modern day Melee LMAO
this^
Let me explain. I was just wondering why Ganondorf is in the very middle of the tiers. Before I get into what I mean, allow me to first put out there that I have been playing for years, and I have watched MANY videos of the tournament masters. My brother and I found out, through years of play, literally EVERY advanced technique in the game, except the wavedash, which we stumbled upon, but wrote off as simply hilarious. I was surprised to find that all the wacky observations we have encountered and adapted are actually defined in the glossary in the sticky topic above! Three of the particularly surprising terms that I could not believe had been widely known and utilized were the Phantom Hit (I just thought I had a glitchy game) and that effect where recovering at the right time from attacks that sent you flying results in an upward boost if you jump out/air dodge/whatever early enough (I cannot remember what it was called in the sticky), and the waveland. Now, I have been using Ganondorf against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Ganon at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Ganondorf has his air forward. We call it 'The Punch.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages. If he misses, he can just do his A punch if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Ganondorf is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Ganondorf Kick Down B, ANOTHER
Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B). Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his wavedash, which, with Ganondorf, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Wavesmashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Punch and killed you opponent by then. Even though he has to fight mostly in the air, 3 of his 4 air attacks are pretty fast, and are quite massive. A major advantage he has is that nearly all his attacks move the opponent considerably, and can topple him from 0%, so his opponent gets little to no counterattack opportunity. The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters. I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never
actually prove anything. Is there online for this somewhere, or is that simply wishful thinking? If not, please do not yell at me and stuff until you at least check out The Punch. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give Ganondorf another shot and tell me what you thnk. Final Comment: People have a tendency to think that posts from newcomers to a board but veterans of its respective game are saying they are better than everyone else, regardles of what the post actually says. Please note that I did not say 'I am better than you' or 'Ganon is better than Fox.' I said, essentially: 'Ganon seems to be great. These are his strengths. He may top Fox. Check him out and see if you agree.' I will say, however, that I am a full master of Ganondorf. Please give Ganondorf a second look before responding so you know where I am coming from!
13:09 "im a moon trencher"
Pretty funny how they say his/her on sheik to avoid spoilers, but the character literally transforms in game. Sakurai spoiled oot, not anyone else
As a doc kid I did the thing where I made a smashboards account that I proceeded to never use because everything was organized on Facebook by then lmao, so it’s fun to see these threads.
Also good lord it’s been almost 10 years since melee came back to evo
TRENCHERS UNITE.
Trencher here checking in
Hugo Samus 86 really is the definition of a trencher. I can't think of a better example
Actually, I’m the closest thing to a trencher for sure lmao. I never left the ground
Damn Hugo woke up and chose violence 18:19
This was a great idea
Hey you're that guy that did the chess boxing! Props
Above the silent wolf chain, what chain is including M2Ks name? Its removed from your smashboards post now ;w;
Legit spit my drink out at 4:20-4:34 😭
Yea this needs to be a series sir.
16:43 Hugo, just a reminder that "Silence" was 2007 lol
I don't always watch your content, but this got you a sub Mr. Hugs. Please make more of these.
I'm definitely in the Fabian chain... I beat Silentwolf once...in teams. The only difference is I would be the one leaning back instead of forward. Too many people hadn't heard of deoderant :P (I'm sure that's still true...)
God, smashboards in general is just such a trip looking back at it. I made an account back in 2005, but barely have any posts, and a lot of it had to do with people using so many terms like "frame weight" that I didn't even know existed! So, how could I argue against it? Lol
"and then isai just fucks up jmook because he decides to try"
LMAO that's too accurate.
I was a week old when M2k made those comments in the opening of the video😭
This video is amazing I need more.
Relic of history right here
If only AllisBrawl was still up
I can't believe we used to put our address online in that weird Google maps mod in like . I met up with Atlus, J666, and NES on Blythe Street in 2007 which you should know Hugo is not the safest street in the 818 🤣
god this is some of the best melee content on youtube lmao
when venus is in retrograde my waveshines are crisp
Send me back to 2002. Wait I was already there.
smashboards was a weird and funny place.
Do sequels do smash threads but now in video form
- the one where they tried to find famous people that looked like smashers
Can this be a series?
woooo new hugs video
Begging you to go through the thread of Hax getting rock bottomed by Eggm then hax threatens to sue him for like a month after LMAO
19:14 was hilarious 🤣
that smash 4 ruleset post bro i am DYING ☠️
Think about [M2K calling shiek a he to avoid spoilers] from the time frame though: OoT came out November '98 and M2k posted this just over 4 years after OoT came out. Considering how people get cagey about spoilers even for last gen games, it would make sense why he'd do that.
Hugs is no stranger to this, but doesn't it make you feel old?
Makes no sense since zelda turning into sheik is already a spoiler
@@clipCommander101 when I was 6 playing SSBB for the first time, I thought they were married
@@rkraccoons lol and i used to think marth was the girl version of roy
More yt love hugs. Need the content
My life in 2002 was also very different
This is so crazy to look back on lol
Love ya content hugs especially on UA-cam
This is incredible
sheik having a better than average recovery these days sounds insane to me, wow I wish I was there when people be saying that
😳the secret samus spike😳
"fOx BaCkAiR dOgSh*t" uh yeah have you ever seen it actually kill the first time 😂 rip light
"frame weight" tho 😂
Yeah the melee tournaments before wave dashing and L canceling rules etc were based on emotional saltiness and then when they were discovered then there was whiny rules etc then finally MLG took over and make it more fair for a while. Then David's stupid rule etc.. make the rules we have today been playing for 20+ years now.
11:58 go back in time and design melee to be slower and implement a tripping mechanic into the game
I only think people thought Sheik > Fox because Sheik just neutralizes the shit out of so many characters with ease.
Um sir we definitely still claim Jace here in Missouri/Kansas area lol. Don't steal him from us :D
Tbf we don't have to say what kind of success Ludwig gained 😉
Could you do a video of ppl who had some good hot takes back then?
2002
10/10 isai is trying joke
What about the Fabian chain? :|
Yo wtf is frame weight?
How use up+b, Quit being grasped??
people didn't know how to crouch cancel in 2002 lol
W
I think that first post was made before wavedashing was discovered lol