The word "solvent" is doing a lot of work. A solvent is anything that dissolves a solute. The most common solvent is water. Having worked for years in the printing industry, I guarantee the number of toxic chemicals used to put pictures on paper is massive. I wouldn't be surprised if a card has less foreign substances on it after receiving the Kurt's Card Care treatment than it has before. I do think Kurt's Card Care's days are numbered. Kurt Colone is breaking federal law every time he produces one of his products. Any cleaning product manufactured or sold in the United States must have its ingredients listed on the packaging. He doesn't do that. His whole operation will get shut down.
Thanks for your comment. I do agree that by not listing ingredients he's likely not doing himself any favors. Especially since he's shipping this stuff all around the US and the world most likely.
Spot on. If Kurt wants to make it acceptable, then he needs to list ingredients, prove they won’t damage the cards or damage return years later, document it and disclose it to grading companies and back his product and claims with a guarantee.
Agreed. It’s not acceptable to simply claim your products are “natural” and “perfectly safe” when we don’t know what’s actually in them. If we knew there’s likely some research that’s already been done elsewhere that could tell us if this stuff is safe or not long term. Beyond that, it’s still needs testing regardless.
Nice recap, especially the talk on disclosure. Like you mentioned, there's already "acceptance" for cleaning and restoration within the authentic altered designation. For all the "investment" talk in the hobby, seems odd to simultaneously push a short-term "fix", that could potentially severely impact future card values.
Appreciate it man. While I walk the line here a bit to speak to both sides, most of us know that 99% of people cleaning and soaking cards are doing it for financial gain. It's absolutely a short term fix/benefit with potential long term negative impact for the hobby as a whole. 100% agree.
I would be upset to learn that a card I had purchased went through restoration without me being told. That is the issue. There is nothing wrong with using this stuff on your own PC. The line is trying to trick other people for a profit.
We can't because they can't detect it and even if they started detecting it, there are millions of cards out there that already have some form of restoration that was not caught
Great well thought out discussion! I have yet to hear of anyone making the claim that they support Kurt's Card Care only for their own collection purposes. So basically there are two camps here: the people against Kurt's who simply love the cards and those for Kurt's who love the money they can make selling cards. At the end of the day, these cards have zero value if we don't have collectors at the end of the line buying the cards because they love them which makes the case pretty clear that Kurt's and all other products like it should disappear.
Great comment. Kurt has and others have claimed the same, but when you’re cleaning/restoring then sell it and don’t disclose, you are essentially pushing your ideals on others while also taking away their ability to choose. Given a choice between a heavily restored card vs untouched, same grade same price, most would choose the untouched IMHO.
I've had flippers tell me its they're market now and the collectors can just leave. I tried explainignyour point to no avail, that its gonna eventually be nothing but a bunch of greedy grifters flipping cards back and forth trying to get over on one another.
@@johnwayne9828 Yeah sadly it's been heading in that direction for the last 5 or 6 years now. Moreso during the boom. I've been close to being one of the collectors who got fed up and left, but there's still a lot out there that isn't pumped and flipped a likely never will be. I just stick to that stuff and try my best to have fun with it all.
Hear me out on this. TLDR I know...but. This isn't directed at you, but rather at those who are missing a huge part of the cards VS art cleaning/restoration debate. As you mentioned, paintings, drawings, the negative/positive of a famous photo (i.e. anything that could be defined as original art) are the true 1/1's of the art world. There's no debate about that. However, much like 1/1's in the card market, sales of original art actually make up a small percentage of the "art" that is collected in the overall art market. I'll explain why below. The number of 1/1's an artist can produce is limited to the amount of time they are able to spend as a working artist. So some artists have 50 original pieces, and some have 500 original pieces created in their lifetime. Just like with rare cards, a painting, or drawing that only one image exists of is generally very expensive, even if the artist is only somewhat well known. Depending on how popular (or culturally relevant) that artist is, the value of their original pieces goes up and down, depending on the supply/demand for collecters of their work. These supply/demand/cost factors generally only allow the upper 5% of art collectors to be able to afford these 1/1 original pieces.
So if you're an art collector, and you want an image of a famous piece of art in your collection, that has some value, you're going to want to acquire some sort of limited edition print. That is the point I'm trying to get across in this debate, that I feel most people are missing. The majority of art sold and collected in the art market IS MASS PRODUCED. Because that's what the majority of collectors in the art market can afford. Yes, just like with the card market, limited edition prints can be VERY collectible (and expensive). I personally collect intaglio prints (prints made from an original engraving). I have over 160 prints in my collection, ranging from the 1500's-modern. Most prints are hand numbered, or are a part of a limited run edition, some are even signed by the artist and personalized with descriptions. It's not uncommon for some of these prints to have hundreds, or even thousands of copies. Again, depending on supply/demand/cost factors a popular print of an image may sell for $100K+ because...that's what it's worth to a collector who really, really wants it.
I have heard about limited prints, but have very little knowledge on it tbh so this is great info, appreciate it. Is there ever restoration work done on prints?
None of what has happened with PSA will change anything. A few cards being deactivated will only drive people to not disclose what they are doing. PSA has been inconsistent in their practices and did it again here. What about the 1/1 Wemby card? Kurt was actually a very positive influence because he shared what he done. He was very transparent and honest with what he does. He didn’t condone true alterations like trimming or adding color or other materials. Best I can tell, there are a lot of people doing what Kurt does, and some doing much worse to the cards they work on. They now know they need to be very discreet or they may be called out on line. There is no chance for disclosure now. Thanks for your video!!!
Appreciate the view! 🙌 I agree that they should have taken action on the Wemby card. That was a mistaken letting it fly. Even though I do agree with you that cleaning will likely be taken underground again, I still feel disclosure is the key.
Also paintings are restored by experts. Noone has ever hand a da vinci over to a guy to soak in dawn and lemon juice and then told him to scrub away. Art restorers are professionals who are held to a very high standard.
Use some warm water on a microfiber. Thats it. Anything else is altering. Stop legitimizing these dirtbags. Its like buying a car from a dealer with the miles rolled back 40k. Just not right and illegal if not properly notified.
Yep. As it currently stands that is what’s allowed by grading. Doing anything else and not disclosing is deception. The reason I offer a potential alternative is so those who don’t want cleaned cards have a choice in what they’re buying. Cleaned/restored cards are either labeled or what was done is disclosed. Right now that isn’t happening.
If you have a few Scratches on your car and you are able to buff them out, You would not put that in the listing if you decided to sell it. It's just a fact
The problem is that PSA and other grading companies can't detect the soaking and restoration process. We wouldn't even be having this conversation had Kurt not been transparent and recorded himself doing it. Deactivating the Robinson does nothing but allow the card to be cracked out of the case and resubmitted under a different account. Knowing PSA's grading inconsistencies, it'll probably come back a 3 next time.
Very true. They can certainly crack and resub, but the card is now identifiable so it’ll be tough. I still feel the bigger issue is hiding it. The anti-cleaning crowd and grading companies aren’t going to approve of any of this until that changes.
The word "solvent" is doing a lot of work. A solvent is anything that dissolves a solute. The most common solvent is water. Having worked for years in the printing industry, I guarantee the number of toxic chemicals used to put pictures on paper is massive. I wouldn't be surprised if a card has less foreign substances on it after receiving the Kurt's Card Care treatment than it has before.
I do think Kurt's Card Care's days are numbered. Kurt Colone is breaking federal law every time he produces one of his products. Any cleaning product manufactured or sold in the United States must have its ingredients listed on the packaging. He doesn't do that. His whole operation will get shut down.
Thanks for your comment. I do agree that by not listing ingredients he's likely not doing himself any favors. Especially since he's shipping this stuff all around the US and the world most likely.
Spot on. If Kurt wants to make it acceptable, then he needs to list ingredients, prove they won’t damage the cards or damage return years later, document it and disclose it to grading companies and back his product and claims with a guarantee.
Agreed. It’s not acceptable to simply claim your products are “natural” and “perfectly safe” when we don’t know what’s actually in them. If we knew there’s likely some research that’s already been done elsewhere that could tell us if this stuff is safe or not long term. Beyond that, it’s still needs testing regardless.
@@mindcycle_cards it's funny how there's no video of his stuff not working or even what happens if you use it wrong.
Nice recap, especially the talk on disclosure. Like you mentioned, there's already "acceptance" for cleaning and restoration within the authentic altered designation.
For all the "investment" talk in the hobby, seems odd to simultaneously push a short-term "fix", that could potentially severely impact future card values.
Appreciate it man. While I walk the line here a bit to speak to both sides, most of us know that 99% of people cleaning and soaking cards are doing it for financial gain. It's absolutely a short term fix/benefit with potential long term negative impact for the hobby as a whole. 100% agree.
I would be upset to learn that a card I had purchased went through restoration without me being told. That is the issue. There is nothing wrong with using this stuff on your own PC. The line is trying to trick other people for a profit.
Exactly 👍
Put it on the label and let the consumer decide if he wants a card that was cleaned
💯
We can't because they can't detect it and even if they started detecting it, there are millions of cards out there that already have some form of restoration that was not caught
The scammers trying to get more money are the only wants that want to use wax and not disclose it.
Great well thought out discussion!
I have yet to hear of anyone making the claim that they support Kurt's Card Care only for their own collection purposes. So basically there are two camps here: the people against Kurt's who simply love the cards and those for Kurt's who love the money they can make selling cards. At the end of the day, these cards have zero value if we don't have collectors at the end of the line buying the cards because they love them which makes the case pretty clear that Kurt's and all other products like it should disappear.
Great comment. Kurt has and others have claimed the same, but when you’re cleaning/restoring then sell it and don’t disclose, you are essentially pushing your ideals on others while also taking away their ability to choose. Given a choice between a heavily restored card vs untouched, same grade same price, most would choose the untouched IMHO.
I've had flippers tell me its they're market now and the collectors can just leave. I tried explainignyour point to no avail, that its gonna eventually be nothing but a bunch of greedy grifters flipping cards back and forth trying to get over on one another.
@@johnwayne9828 Yeah sadly it's been heading in that direction for the last 5 or 6 years now. Moreso during the boom. I've been close to being one of the collectors who got fed up and left, but there's still a lot out there that isn't pumped and flipped a likely never will be. I just stick to that stuff and try my best to have fun with it all.
Hear me out on this. TLDR I know...but.
This isn't directed at you, but rather at those who are missing a huge part of the cards VS art cleaning/restoration debate. As you mentioned, paintings, drawings, the negative/positive of a famous photo (i.e. anything that could be defined as original art) are the true 1/1's of the art world. There's no debate about that. However, much like 1/1's in the card market, sales of original art actually make up a small percentage of the "art" that is collected in the overall art market. I'll explain why below.
The number of 1/1's an artist can produce is limited to the amount of time they are able to spend as a working artist. So some artists have 50 original pieces, and some have 500 original pieces created in their lifetime. Just like with rare cards, a painting, or drawing that only one image exists of is generally very expensive, even if the artist is only somewhat well known. Depending on how popular (or culturally relevant) that artist is, the value of their original pieces goes up and down, depending on the supply/demand for collecters of their work. These supply/demand/cost factors generally only allow the upper 5% of art collectors to be able to afford these 1/1 original pieces.
So if you're an art collector, and you want an image of a famous piece of art in your collection, that has some value, you're going to want to acquire some sort of limited edition print. That is the point I'm trying to get across in this debate, that I feel most people are missing. The majority of art sold and collected in the art market IS MASS PRODUCED. Because that's what the majority of collectors in the art market can afford.
Yes, just like with the card market, limited edition prints can be VERY collectible (and expensive). I personally collect intaglio prints (prints made from an original engraving). I have over 160 prints in my collection, ranging from the 1500's-modern. Most prints are hand numbered, or are a part of a limited run edition, some are even signed by the artist and personalized with descriptions. It's not uncommon for some of these prints to have hundreds, or even thousands of copies. Again, depending on supply/demand/cost factors a popular print of an image may sell for $100K+ because...that's what it's worth to a collector who really, really wants it.
@@codacollectiblesthat's alot of words. What do they have to do with soaking cards?
I have heard about limited prints, but have very little knowledge on it tbh so this is great info, appreciate it. Is there ever restoration work done on prints?
@@johnwayne9828 They do the same thing to art (prints). It's an issue in both worlds.
Nice informative video!
Thanks!
Great video sir.
Appreciate it man 🙌
You dont. Its altered. 😂
None of what has happened with PSA will change anything. A few cards being deactivated will only drive people to not disclose what they are doing. PSA has been inconsistent in their practices and did it again here. What about the 1/1 Wemby card?
Kurt was actually a very positive influence because he shared what he done. He was very transparent and honest with what he does. He didn’t condone true alterations like trimming or adding color or other materials.
Best I can tell, there are a lot of people doing what Kurt does, and some doing much worse to the cards they work on. They now know they need to be very discreet or they may be called out on line. There is no chance for disclosure now.
Thanks for your video!!!
Appreciate the view! 🙌 I agree that they should have taken action on the Wemby card. That was a mistaken letting it fly.
Even though I do agree with you that cleaning will likely be taken underground again, I still feel disclosure is the key.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, much appreciated. Just subscribed
Thanks for the sub! 🙌
this market is silliness. aren't multi-million dollar artwork restored? what's the big deal about cleaning cards?
I actually talk about that comparison in this very video. :) They are, but that restoration work is fully disclosed. Card cleaning is not.
Also paintings are restored by experts. Noone has ever hand a da vinci over to a guy to soak in dawn and lemon juice and then told him to scrub away. Art restorers are professionals who are held to a very high standard.
We don't
That is certainly one option :)
Use some warm water on a microfiber. Thats it. Anything else is altering. Stop legitimizing these dirtbags. Its like buying a car from a dealer with the miles rolled back 40k. Just not right and illegal if not properly notified.
Yep. As it currently stands that is what’s allowed by grading. Doing anything else and not disclosing is deception. The reason I offer a potential alternative is so those who don’t want cleaned cards have a choice in what they’re buying. Cleaned/restored cards are either labeled or what was done is disclosed. Right now that isn’t happening.
The more youtubers talk about it, his sales could increase. Now all card related people would know.
If you have a few Scratches on your car and you are able to buff them out, You would not put that in the listing if you decided to sell it. It's just a fact
The problem is that PSA and other grading companies can't detect the soaking and restoration process. We wouldn't even be having this conversation had Kurt not been transparent and recorded himself doing it. Deactivating the Robinson does nothing but allow the card to be cracked out of the case and resubmitted under a different account. Knowing PSA's grading inconsistencies, it'll probably come back a 3 next time.
Very true. They can certainly crack and resub, but the card is now identifiable so it’ll be tough. I still feel the bigger issue is hiding it. The anti-cleaning crowd and grading companies aren’t going to approve of any of this until that changes.
This is why grading companies are a joke. They need to photograph or scan each submission. But of course they won’t because it’s all about $$$