Marcel, you proved that some people actually listen to me :) I did indeed work at DamenCNC at that time.. my first job there.. was engineering this design.. You're welcome.. i have made several machines with this design, but not for myself.. :)
I am seriously speechless. This is incredible. I been using a hobby grade CNC for making production parts for my tiny and budding business. I need to make something like this.
if you pre-tension the ballscrew it can not wobble as much, usually thats done with an angular bearing or a combination of bearings with one being a thrust one pushed up against possibly a normal ball bearing. with pre-tensioned ballscrews manufacturers often rate them as usable with double the length or more :)
Anoneom the wobble would even be there with no nut on it... a long shaft is not good for rotating at high speeds... but if you disagree then I would go for ballscrew since it is the most precise...
hey marcel, wat ik met de morbidelli heb gedaan was wat je zelf al aanhaalde.. wat stroken aluminium bevestigen op de liggers... deze door de machine laten vlakken en dan de t-sleuf profielen erop.. de profielen zijn redelijk nauwkeurig.. maar ik betwijfel dat het allemaal binnen een honderdste gaat komen.. het word wel zo vlak als het kan.. een spoil board bovenop je item profielen en die weer vlakken helpt ook weer.. je hebt dalijk een basis bed waar je weer vanalles op kunt bouwen... zij het kikkers of een klem..of een vacuum tafel.. het fijne is dat je een basis hebt waar je makkelijk wat op kunt bouten .
Kijk dat is goed nieuws... in ieder geval is het dus een optie om het op die manier te doen. Ja binnen de honderste is wellicht overdreven maar goed het moet wel binnen de redelijke zijn. Ja ik heb mega getwijfeld over het bed, zeker omdat dit profiel vrij duur is, en toch beperkingen heeft. Maar zo als je zegt, ik kan dit ook zien als de onderzijde van een modulair systeem en daar weer vanalles op zetten.. Het is in ieder geval dik, sterk en een goede basis. Bedankt voor je kijk er op Mc !
That machine looks amazing! I REALLY want to build something like that some time, but I just don't have the room... Stefan Gotteswinter recently posted a video showing an epoxy that can be used to level very large milling machines. It might be *exactly* what you're looking for. He mentioned that it is expensive, but I don't recall if he mentioned the price. I hadn't even heard of the stuff before Stefan mentioned it, but it sounds like a very good solution. I'll reply to this comment with a link to his video (I'm putting it in a separate comment in case it gets automatically marked as "spam".)
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Marcel I don't know what you did about leveling the bed. It has been a while since last you published more follow up on the X2 I was imagining that you would flycut just the bed rails :-) I have decided to adopt some of your design save a few changes, I acquired 2 x 2,5m pieces of 45x180H 80/20 If I use them for the X maybe I have even more possible problems coming. My build will have to be a so-called half sheet machine to be of any use to me however I am only doing wood 3D. So I will try to use the profile and add some steel angle. I will be welding the base from 0.125" gauge square tube and hope this will increase the mass and therefore the moment If it is not enough, there is always sand fill. or better 2 layers of 3/4" (20mm) MDF between base structure and the 80/20 assembly. But then this begins to look like a "Joe's" design :-) As I have your attention, there is this matter of this ebay vendor. Have you bought entire kits from Chai @ linearmotionbearings2008? I am pricing a 1300 x 1500 Hiwin w/RM2010 and well. the prices are so very low ~$600USD including the shipping..... I am worried what I will be getting. Best regards Marcel. And a Merry Christmas to you and all there in the NL
Hi Chris, Thanks for your comment and nice words.... The problem with the updates is that I have 2 jobs and a private life te mix with the build... And much more stuff to do (like a even bigger laser that enterd the shop..) Anyway... there is some news, but to see so you would also have to follow my different social stuf like facebook and instagram. For the bed profiles I was planning to glue thin pieces of derin sheet on the bed profiles and flycut that. This is basicaly the same but it prevents the problems you would get due to the fact you can not reach everything. And it will give some dampening . No I only buy ballscrew from Chai, the HIWIN rails and blocks i directly buy from HIWIN or DamenCNC (local vendor). There is a lot of imitation on the market from china so be aware... Merry Christmas to you to !
:) I will do my best..... For the Electronics I will first use the controller build for my BF20L mill. All this detail is on my website, CNC Machines > BF20L > Electronics > USB CNC Controller Anyway... If you are patience I will still cover it later on i guess :) Thanks for your support !
Hi, Marcel!! First of all, now i know your name ( not a Robo actually:-)) At second- great machine design! Aluminum extrusion is right choice for big, rigid cnc. It`s hard to control temperature deformation of steel profile during welding, so much easy to assembly frame with aluminum profile! And if you want to use some material between bed end frame- try some plastic ( like Altuglass, for example), wooden bed is not an option if you using some water cooling for spindle!
Hi there ! and thanks for following along :) Thanks for the comments, and indeed, although it's somewhat expensive, these profiles make the build easy and very sturdy. I wish steel would hold still while welding :) But i have no machines to scrape or grind it flat and square indeed. The coolant is indeed the reason for this approach because I really mis that option on my old machine. Even a mist or fogbuster would not be possible on the wooden bed.
You are right about material of bed, because coolant destroys wood or plywood very fast. So, you need some sort of plastic or composite material ( like fiberglass, for example) And you will be an author of BEST cnc machine in Netherlands)) By the way, i read a lot of information about culture and work relations in Netherlands- very interesting!! So, it will be hard to say for you " I am best in CNC design", You may be misunderstand by Holland society. But youtubers knows- your design are best!!)
Lol.. You already know our culture well... (But believe me, we do think we have the best design, just don't say so haha) Well I'm fortunate to be able to build a version 2. And although number 1 has served me well There are many thing i should have done differently. A learning curve resulting in this machine :) Anyway... Thanks a lot for the nice words and the support ! much appreciated !
Hi there, i recon this posting is a bit aged but still one of the best designs i've seen so far. Have already looked to your web site and many thanks really for sharing the designs !! I've notice quite a number of parts are sourced finished but there are some ALU plates which need to be worked out to i assume a good level of precision.. I was wondering as this will be my first CNC and i do not own precise tools... (e.g. a mill) is there any way around that ? any suggestions ? Many thanks again
Thanks for the nice words, and while the machine is running I answer your question. Well like the chicken and the egg, it’s always hard to start the first one. But although I can not be of any help, there are for sure cnc shops around your location to try. It is correct that you better invest now in high quality, or n stead of trying to diy with a chopsaw :)
I'm not even close to being an engineer and unless I've missed a previous video about you testing what you've already assembled you may be working yourself into some future problems Marcel. The main starting requirements for any accurate machine tool are. Rigidity: And for the size and power of the spindle plus maybe compensating a bit with cut depths and feed rates your assembly does seem pretty rigid. Not to the level of a large industrial bed mill for example, but that's not what your building or even trying to have the same capability's. Alignment:. This is where you may be building yourself into a problem. Those aluminum extrusions will be fairly accurate but not in machine tool tool terms. Mid cost manual machine tools have there slides hardened and precision ground to quite accurate specifications. Very high accuracy machines will be scraped into as perfect alignment as possible. Yes your linear ways are hardened and ground as well, but there bolted down to those extrusions that aren't ground to a true flat plane. That can and likely will result in your linear ways having high and low points along the length of the travel. Setting up an Autocollimator or an even more expensive machine tool alignment laser would be the fastest method, but few of us have access to or can afford to buy either. Failing that then many many checks with a precision machinists level along each linear rail and shimming each low spot until those rails are also flat and true and in the same alignment for both rails to each other is about the cheapest method I can think of. Again since those extrusions aren't accurate enough your going to have the same issues in both the X and Y axis on the bed. I hate to say it but if you want to keep those Tee slotted bed extrusions and I'd feel the same way. Then once you have your X and Y axis properly trued your going to need to check each bed extrusion with a dial indicator suspended from your spindle mounting bracket probably every 25 mm or less and again shim each low spot and get the bed itself true to your X and Y axis travels. I don't think using those plastic strips across each cross rail are going to give you a bed surface that's true enough. Resistance to vibration: Today a lot of modern machine tools are computer analyzed during the initial design process and built from weldments..But that resistance or dampening to reduce vibrations and harmonics is an important part of the overall design. A lot of good industrial quality machine tools even today are still built from cast iron mostly because of that dampening ability it has. Aluminum and aluminum extrusions are capable of a lot less vibration dampening. Wood is capable of a lot less than cast iron but better than aluminum is. You may not end up with a choice but to fasten a heavy sheet of something like MDF to your bed and then surface it to your X and Y travels like you mentioned. That would simplify getting your bed true to the rest of the machine but I understand why that would be something you'd rather not do. Overall I think you've come up with a hell of a good design using almost all off the shelf components. But you may still have to make some alignment checks and maybe compromise on the bed by adding that waste board surface.But I've been wrong about lot's of things before. Just my thoughts and I hope you don't mind the input Marcel.
First of all I want to tell you that I appreciate it a lot that you think with me and take the time to share your thoughts. Although I do not really agree this does not take away from the fact you help me think about curtain design elements. It's true you have to keep in mind I'm not trying to build a biesse Rover or a complete factory machine. I'm improving my previous design. And I think It's going to be improved on a lot of thinks. That said, the previous machine has worked great from 2008 till now, and has made me my money daily. So In rigidity I think and hope i'm quite oke... again, i'm trying to improve from the old machine, and this is way way more rigid. And by the way, almost all of the chinese built routers still work with the high gantry style, don't underestimate that design flaw in relation on rigidity and vibration. For the alignement on the cast and welded machines the indeed use an even bigger machine to ground the places where the rails are mounted. But lets be honest, there is just no way we can do that. I have to assume the profiles are flat enough for my needs. And having spoken to guys at DamenCNC (who build about 5 machines like this a month) I dare to take that risk. And of course i'm going to level the machine and test the accuracy, but grinding is is no option. btw, for the steel welded machines this assumption would not work because of the welding they do and the effect that has on the steel shape. On the resistance to vibration I agree... I do hope this is not going to give problems, will have to see. I could decide to change the harmonics of the frame by filling it with sand or a epoxy cement later on. This would will improve rigidity slightly, but will change the harmonics drastically. I have not got the skills to simulate or calculate the possibility of these problems. I do understand that in a perfect world things could be improved. But this is what i can do in a home shop environment and with the provided tools. And of course I will try to measure all variables, and fight back at problems along the way. Again thanks for sharing your knowledge ! And please keep doing so.... The best advise is people who see problems (even if the changes are not to high) and of course have ideas how to solve these problems. Thanks !
I'm glad you you took my comments how they were intended Marcel. I probably look at machine design from a perspective of something that's capable of machining steel and other hard materials since that's the usual materials I machine. And I know that's not likely to be done on this machine. You were reading my mind about the possibility of needing to add sand or that epoxy granite mix. Your first test cuts should give you an indication if that might be needed or not. I doubt calculating vibration and harmonic problems for any design is an exact science no matter how good the simulation program is. There's always going to be variables that can't be foreseen with 100% accuracy. I'm looking forward to seeing your fist test cuts very much. I haven't seen another home built gantry type router design as well thought out as yours has been. .
Hi Marcel, perhaps I got an idea for your bed profile problem. You can try Corian from Du Pont as a middle layer (in between your frame and the bed profile). Corian is very easy and precise to machine and is also very stirdy. I did some tests with corian in different other fields, I guess this it may work fine for your task. Love your cnc approuch and your developements!
Hi Maththias, thanks for the tip ! I think indeed that would work out great.. I have been working with Corian a few times and indeed it machines great.. I do think it is a costly approach, and a bit thick.. Although some are availible in 1/4" (6,35mm) It still is expensive material... (I did one buy a second hand kitchen to work witgh though :) ) I'll keep it in mind !
Hoi Marcel, Voor het eventueel uitvullen van het bed zou misschien koperfolie een uitkomst kunnen bieden ?! .. ik weet dat het bestaat in een dikte van 0,035 en koper is zacht en heeft daardoor misschien een meer dempende werking dan shims. Vroeg me af of je de tekeningen van de zijplaat van de y-as ook als upload hebt staan? en anders wacht ik natuurlijk geduldig af :) .. ziet er tot nu toe allemaal strak uit.
Hoi Mario, Ik ken het materiaal wel, en heb er zelfs enkele rollen van liggen (latoenkoper). Ik denk dat dat echter wel erg veel meetwerk en uitvul werk is op die manier... Ik ga er eens over dnken, thanks in ieder geval ;) Nee volgens mij staat die nog niet online, omdat de y-as nog niet af is. Ik heb ook besloten op de website weer een pagina aan te maken, dus als je die in de gaten houd hoef je niet steeds de videos terug te zoeken.. ;)
Hallo Marcel, misschien kan je je tafel al monteren en dan daarna vlakken met een slagmes of met een frees overgaan. Dan zal alles vlak zijn volgens uw machine.
Hi David, Ja dat kan wel, maar het nadeel is dat ik dan de anodisatie van de profielen haal.... en dat vind ik eigenlijk zonde en niet zo mooi... Bedankt voor het meedenken ! wordt gewaardeerd !
Anders die latten met T-groeven is monteren en is kijken met een meetklok hoe vlak ze zijn. Ik weet niet hoe vlak je dit wilt. Het ziet er heel goed uit, kan niet wachten wanneer deze tot leven komt.
Hi Marcel, great build!! I'm at the end of my build (which is somewhat similar to yours - thanks for the insights!), and facing the same question about the bed level, my table is exactly as yours (80x80 cross members supporting the t-slot alum. profiles) and I was wondering what did you eventually do to level it? shims, spoil board, anything else? any information would be greatly appreciated!
Ronen, I saw your router model on GrabCAD and it is awesome. Are you going to post a video? Do you have any other bill of materials you would like to share on it? I am thinking of building one based on yours but 5-6" inches of extra z travel.
great video Marcel. you answered a lot of question i had about your build. but i got one more question. what size of stepper motor are yoy going to use for x and y axis? Let me tell you that your idea about to keep the bed flat without touching the aluminium extrusion is good, but i am not an professional, lets see what other with experience say. i just thinking if that is going to be your final solution for the bed, the acrylic or plastic must to be kind of thick so it doesn't bend that easy in the unsupported places. one more time Marcel, great video man. i can wait for the rest of the video series for this build, and even better, start building mine. i hope you cover everything just like you did with the X1. thank you man
Hi Miquel, thanks for watching and you thoughts ! For the steppers I will use 3 nema 34 4Nm steppers. 1 on the Y spindle, 2 on the X axis with a 1:10 reduction ratio. The plastic I was thinking about would only be 4 strips on the support profiles, so no unsupported plastic.. Your welcome ! and also thanks !
I'm not sure yet for now.... Maybe i will... Since this machine will probably be good in machining its own parts... For now my aluminum machining is to slow to be making kits.
Please do! I will buy the very first set! Even if all you do is sell the machine parts. I built a KR33 machine from neo7cnc who just sold the aluminum brackets, if I could buy some of your brackets today I totally would.
I'm flattred, and will absolutely think about it... This machine will probably eat aluminum for breakfast so I can probably start making some of the parts when it's done...
7 років тому
And I should certainly be the second to buy a kit ! My question is could I extend the bridge/Y axis to 1500mm using the same profile ? Or, what section should I use to keep the same stiffness ?
What NuttyforNissan said I agree with you use "shims" but the highest point on the floor needs zero "shims." i would start at the lowest point and "shim" the lowest point with enough width to make the floor level.
hii Marcel, my CNC design has length of 5 feet for y-axis . so it will be good or not to use same rack and pinion gear system for y axis too as you used for x-axis. please rply
I want to build my own CNC, I like most of your design. I purchased a small CNC to learn on, one of the things I don’t like is the T-Slot bed you are proposing, the CNC I bought has that style of bed. It requires a salvage be to protect it, with the T-Slots running the direction you are proposing has its drawbacks with the salvage board and the use of t-Slot hold downs .Certain sizes make it hard to.clamp down, and in a lot of cases I have to enlarge the material to accommodate clamping, which increases my waste material. I have an idea that is hard to describe in an email, it might solve the bed leveling issue. Not sure how we can contact each other.
Thanks for your thoughts.... I do understand your point, although a spoilboard can always be used on top. It is not possible to use like machine clamps on top of a spoilboard so then a tslot table would be great. I'm afraid there is no phone option, so if you can not write down the ideas i'm afraid it will stay a secret :)
I am going to try and install a single rail t-slot on top of cross member supports. T-slot depth is 0.625” and spaced 6-8 inches apart. Then fill in the gaps between the t-slots with 0.75” MDF. That way the MDF will become the salvage board. If you cut the t-slots 2-3” shorter than the cross width of the bed and center it,you should be able to drop in a hold down clamp from either end. This should minimize replacing the whole bed, you should only have to replace the damaged section of the spoil board.
There is quite good solution buying precision milled aluminium plates from gleich.de and use it as a base for measurements and threaded holes fixturing system.
I will use the plates as shown in the video, so I'm not looking for a replacement but a good way to make sure they are mounted flat. Machining an aluminum plate with holes can be done on this machine afterwards :) Anyway, thanks for thinking with me!
Hey Marcel, great project! The delrin ring is a very good idea for levelling out uneven surfaces expecially when you engrave, are you going to make an option to adjust the cutting depth and an option to adjust the weight of the head (Z-axis)? If a mechanical levelling system doesn't work you might want to check out a software solution f.e. "www.autoleveller.co.uk/".
Hi Jaap, Thanks for watching, and the comment ! Yes the ideas is to make that nosecone adjustable bu lets say turning it on a thread. The electronic solution is cool to, I do have a probe so I could go for that route. But lets first see If I will eventually even use this feature :)
Marcel, you proved that some people actually listen to me :)
I did indeed work at DamenCNC at that time.. my first job there.. was engineering this design..
You're welcome.. i have made several machines with this design, but not for myself.. :)
Lol.... Well you where right so taking the advise is a smart choice.
Back in 2005. I've put on paper some sketches of *exactly same design for CNC!* WoooW, 15yrs later I'm watching this on YT
I am seriously speechless. This is incredible. I been using a hobby grade CNC for making production parts for my tiny and budding business. I need to make something like this.
Thanks for the nice words !
Wat de toekomst brengen moge , je eigen oplossing is de beste.
Bedankt man !!
if you pre-tension the ballscrew it can not wobble as much, usually thats done with an angular bearing or a combination of bearings with one being a thrust one pushed up against possibly a normal ball bearing. with pre-tensioned ballscrews manufacturers often rate them as usable with double the length or more :)
Anoneom the wobble would even be there with no nut on it... a long shaft is not good for rotating at high speeds... but if you disagree then I would go for ballscrew since it is the most precise...
hey marcel, wat ik met de morbidelli heb gedaan was wat je zelf al aanhaalde.. wat stroken aluminium bevestigen op de liggers... deze door de machine laten vlakken en dan de t-sleuf profielen erop.. de profielen zijn redelijk nauwkeurig.. maar ik betwijfel dat het allemaal binnen een honderdste gaat komen.. het word wel zo vlak als het kan..
een spoil board bovenop je item profielen en die weer vlakken helpt ook weer.. je hebt dalijk een basis bed waar je weer vanalles op kunt bouwen... zij het kikkers of een klem..of een vacuum tafel.. het fijne is dat je een basis hebt waar je makkelijk wat op kunt bouten .
Kijk dat is goed nieuws... in ieder geval is het dus een optie om het op die manier te doen.
Ja binnen de honderste is wellicht overdreven maar goed het moet wel binnen de redelijke zijn.
Ja ik heb mega getwijfeld over het bed, zeker omdat dit profiel vrij duur is, en toch beperkingen heeft.
Maar zo als je zegt, ik kan dit ook zien als de onderzijde van een modulair systeem en daar weer vanalles op zetten.. Het is in ieder geval dik, sterk en een goede basis. Bedankt voor je kijk er op Mc !
you're welcome ;-)
That machine looks amazing! I REALLY want to build something like that some time, but I just don't have the room...
Stefan Gotteswinter recently posted a video showing an epoxy that can be used to level very large milling machines. It might be *exactly* what you're looking for. He mentioned that it is expensive, but I don't recall if he mentioned the price. I hadn't even heard of the stuff before Stefan mentioned it, but it sounds like a very good solution. I'll reply to this comment with a link to his video (I'm putting it in a separate comment in case it gets automatically marked as "spam".)
Yup, looks like Google decided it was spam. If you go to Video Manager -> Community (left side of the screen) -> Comments (subcategory) -> Likely Spam (tab) you can view the message and "unspam" it if you want.
Thanks I will have a look at his video ! Thanks for thinking with me !
Will do ! Thanks !
Marcel I don't know what you did about leveling the bed. It has been a while since last you published more follow up on the X2 I was imagining that you would flycut just the bed rails :-) I have decided to adopt some of your design save a few changes, I acquired 2 x 2,5m pieces of 45x180H 80/20 If I use them for the X maybe I have even more possible problems coming. My build will have to be a so-called half sheet machine to be of any use to me however I am only doing wood 3D.
So I will try to use the profile and add some steel angle. I will be welding the base from 0.125" gauge square tube and hope this will increase the mass and therefore the moment If it is not enough, there is always sand fill. or better 2 layers of 3/4" (20mm) MDF between base structure and the 80/20 assembly. But then this begins to look like a "Joe's" design :-)
As I have your attention, there is this matter of this ebay vendor. Have you bought entire kits from Chai @ linearmotionbearings2008? I am pricing a 1300 x 1500 Hiwin w/RM2010 and well. the prices are so very low ~$600USD including the shipping..... I am worried what I will be getting. Best regards Marcel. And a Merry Christmas to you and all there in the NL
Hi Chris, Thanks for your comment and nice words.... The problem with the updates is that I have 2 jobs and a private life te mix with the build... And much more stuff to do (like a even bigger laser that enterd the shop..) Anyway... there is some news, but to see so you would also have to follow my different social stuf like facebook and instagram.
For the bed profiles I was planning to glue thin pieces of derin sheet on the bed profiles and flycut that. This is basicaly the same but it prevents the problems you would get due to the fact you can not reach everything. And it will give some dampening .
No I only buy ballscrew from Chai, the HIWIN rails and blocks i directly buy from HIWIN or DamenCNC (local vendor). There is a lot of imitation on the market from china so be aware...
Merry Christmas to you to !
i hope you go into a lot of detail about the electronics and setup and commisioning of this machine, look forward to more videos ;-)
:) I will do my best..... For the Electronics I will first use the controller build for my BF20L mill.
All this detail is on my website, CNC Machines > BF20L > Electronics > USB CNC Controller
Anyway... If you are patience I will still cover it later on i guess :) Thanks for your support !
Hi, Marcel!! First of all, now i know your name ( not a Robo actually:-)) At second- great machine design! Aluminum extrusion is right choice for big, rigid cnc.
It`s hard to control temperature deformation of steel profile during welding, so much easy to assembly frame with aluminum profile! And if you want to use some material between bed end frame- try some plastic ( like Altuglass, for example), wooden bed is not an option if you using some water cooling for spindle!
Hi there ! and thanks for following along :)
Thanks for the comments, and indeed, although it's somewhat expensive, these profiles make the build easy and very sturdy. I wish steel would hold still while welding :) But i have no machines to scrape or grind it flat and square indeed. The coolant is indeed the reason for this approach because I really mis that option on my old machine. Even a mist or fogbuster would not be possible on the wooden bed.
You are right about material of bed, because coolant destroys wood or plywood very fast. So, you need some sort of plastic or composite material ( like fiberglass, for example)
And you will be an author of BEST cnc machine in Netherlands)) By the way, i read a lot of information about culture and work relations in Netherlands- very interesting!! So, it will be hard to say for you " I am best in CNC design", You may be misunderstand by Holland society. But youtubers knows- your design are best!!)
Lol.. You already know our culture well...
(But believe me, we do think we have the best design, just don't say so haha)
Well I'm fortunate to be able to build a version 2. And although number 1 has served me well There are many thing i should have done differently. A learning curve resulting in this machine :)
Anyway... Thanks a lot for the nice words and the support ! much appreciated !
Hi there, i recon this posting is a bit aged but still one of the best designs i've seen so far.
Have already looked to your web site and many thanks really for sharing the designs !! I've notice quite a number of parts are sourced finished but there are some ALU plates which need to be worked out to i assume a good level of precision..
I was wondering as this will be my first CNC and i do not own precise tools... (e.g. a mill) is there any way around that ? any suggestions ?
Many thanks again
Thanks for the nice words, and while the machine is running I answer your question. Well like the chicken and the egg, it’s always hard to start the first one. But although I can not be of any help, there are for sure cnc shops around your location to try. It is correct that you better invest now in high quality, or n stead of trying to diy with a chopsaw :)
@@RoboCNCnl yeah as i suspected :-) either get a mill which i might need either way... or find a CNC guy :-) thanks
I'm not even close to being an engineer and unless I've missed a previous video about you testing what you've already assembled you may be working yourself into some future problems Marcel. The main starting requirements for any accurate machine tool are.
Rigidity: And for the size and power of the spindle plus maybe compensating a bit with cut depths and feed rates your assembly does seem pretty rigid. Not to the level of a large industrial bed mill for example, but that's not what your building or even trying to have the same capability's.
Alignment:. This is where you may be building yourself into a problem. Those aluminum extrusions will be fairly accurate but not in machine tool tool terms. Mid cost manual machine tools have there slides hardened and precision ground to quite accurate specifications. Very high accuracy machines will be scraped into as perfect alignment as possible. Yes your linear ways are hardened and ground as well, but there bolted down to those extrusions that aren't ground to a true flat plane. That can and likely will result in your linear ways having high and low points along the length of the travel. Setting up an Autocollimator or an even more expensive machine tool alignment laser would be the fastest method, but few of us have access to or can afford to buy either. Failing that then many many checks with a precision machinists level along each linear rail and shimming each low spot until those rails are also flat and true and in the same alignment for both rails to each other is about the cheapest method I can think of. Again since those extrusions aren't accurate enough your going to have the same issues in both the X and Y axis on the bed. I hate to say it but if you want to keep those Tee slotted bed extrusions and I'd feel the same way. Then once you have your X and Y axis properly trued your going to need to check each bed extrusion with a dial indicator suspended from your spindle mounting bracket probably every 25 mm or less and again shim each low spot and get the bed itself true to your X and Y axis travels. I don't think using those plastic strips across each cross rail are going to give you a bed surface that's true enough.
Resistance to vibration: Today a lot of modern machine tools are computer analyzed during the initial design process and built from weldments..But that resistance or dampening to reduce vibrations and harmonics is an important part of the overall design. A lot of good industrial quality machine tools even today are still built from cast iron mostly because of that dampening ability it has. Aluminum and aluminum extrusions are capable of a lot less vibration dampening. Wood is capable of a lot less than cast iron but better than aluminum is. You may not end up with a choice but to fasten a heavy sheet of something like MDF to your bed and then surface it to your X and Y travels like you mentioned. That would simplify getting your bed true to the rest of the machine but I understand why that would be something you'd rather not do.
Overall I think you've come up with a hell of a good design using almost all off the shelf components. But you may still have to make some alignment checks and maybe compromise on the bed by adding that waste board surface.But I've been wrong about lot's of things before. Just my thoughts and I hope you don't mind the input Marcel.
First of all I want to tell you that I appreciate it a lot that you think with me and take the time to share your thoughts.
Although I do not really agree this does not take away from the fact you help me think about curtain design elements.
It's true you have to keep in mind I'm not trying to build a biesse Rover or a complete factory machine. I'm improving my previous design. And I think It's going to be improved on a lot of thinks. That said, the previous machine has worked great from 2008 till now, and has made me my money daily. So In rigidity I think and hope i'm quite oke... again, i'm trying to improve from the old machine, and this is way way more rigid. And by the way, almost all of the chinese built routers still work with the high gantry style, don't underestimate that design flaw in relation on rigidity and vibration.
For the alignement on the cast and welded machines the indeed use an even bigger machine to ground the places where the rails are mounted. But lets be honest, there is just no way we can do that. I have to assume the profiles are flat enough for my needs. And having spoken to guys at DamenCNC (who build about 5 machines like this a month) I dare to take that risk. And of course i'm going to level the machine and test the accuracy, but grinding is is no option. btw, for the steel welded machines this assumption would not work because of the welding they do and the effect that has on the steel shape.
On the resistance to vibration I agree... I do hope this is not going to give problems, will have to see. I could decide to change the harmonics of the frame by filling it with sand or a epoxy cement later on. This would will improve rigidity slightly, but will change the harmonics drastically. I have not got the skills to simulate or calculate the possibility of these problems.
I do understand that in a perfect world things could be improved. But this is what i can do in a home shop environment and with the provided tools. And of course I will try to measure all variables, and fight back at problems along the way. Again thanks for sharing your knowledge ! And please keep doing so.... The best advise is people who see problems (even if the changes are not to high) and of course have ideas how to solve these problems. Thanks !
I'm glad you you took my comments how they were intended Marcel. I probably look at machine design from a perspective of something that's capable of machining steel and other hard materials since that's the usual materials I machine. And I know that's not likely to be done on this machine. You were reading my mind about the possibility of needing to add sand or that epoxy granite mix. Your first test cuts should give you an indication if that might be needed or not. I doubt calculating vibration and harmonic problems for any design is an exact science no matter how good the simulation program is. There's always going to be variables that can't be foreseen with 100% accuracy. I'm looking forward to seeing your fist test cuts very much. I haven't seen another home built gantry type router design as well thought out as yours has been. .
Thanks again !
Hi Marcel, perhaps I got an idea for your bed profile problem. You can try Corian from Du Pont as a middle layer (in between your frame and the bed profile). Corian is very easy and precise to machine and is also very stirdy. I did some tests with corian in different other fields, I guess this it may work fine for your task. Love your cnc approuch and your developements!
Hi Maththias, thanks for the tip ! I think indeed that would work out great.. I have been working with Corian a few times and indeed it machines great.. I do think it is a costly approach, and a bit thick.. Although some are availible in 1/4" (6,35mm) It still is expensive material... (I did one buy a second hand kitchen to work witgh though :) ) I'll keep it in mind !
Hoi Marcel,
Voor het eventueel uitvullen van het bed zou misschien koperfolie een uitkomst kunnen bieden ?! .. ik weet dat het bestaat in een dikte van 0,035 en koper is zacht en heeft daardoor misschien een meer dempende werking dan shims.
Vroeg me af of je de tekeningen van de zijplaat van de y-as ook als upload hebt staan? en anders wacht ik natuurlijk geduldig af :) .. ziet er tot nu toe allemaal strak uit.
Hoi Mario,
Ik ken het materiaal wel, en heb er zelfs enkele rollen van liggen (latoenkoper).
Ik denk dat dat echter wel erg veel meetwerk en uitvul werk is op die manier... Ik ga er eens over dnken, thanks in ieder geval ;)
Nee volgens mij staat die nog niet online, omdat de y-as nog niet af is.
Ik heb ook besloten op de website weer een pagina aan te maken, dus als je die in de gaten houd hoef je niet steeds de videos terug te zoeken.. ;)
Hallo Marcel,
misschien kan je je tafel al monteren en dan daarna vlakken met een slagmes of met een frees overgaan.
Dan zal alles vlak zijn volgens uw machine.
Hi David, Ja dat kan wel, maar het nadeel is dat ik dan de anodisatie van de profielen haal.... en dat vind ik eigenlijk zonde en niet zo mooi... Bedankt voor het meedenken ! wordt gewaardeerd !
Anders die latten met T-groeven is monteren en is kijken met een meetklok hoe vlak ze zijn.
Ik weet niet hoe vlak je dit wilt. Het ziet er heel goed uit, kan niet wachten wanneer deze tot leven komt.
still amazing works with excellent explanations.. thanks for share mate :)
Thanks a lot for the compliment, and for watching !
Hi Marcel, great build!! I'm at the end of my build (which is somewhat similar to yours - thanks for the insights!), and facing the same question about the bed level, my table is exactly as yours (80x80 cross members supporting the t-slot alum. profiles) and I was wondering what did you eventually do to level it? shims, spoil board, anything else? any information would be greatly appreciated!
I did not have the time to do this... :) for now a MDF spoilboard is placed so i can work...
Ronen, I saw your router model on GrabCAD and it is awesome. Are you going to post a video? Do you have any other bill of materials you would like to share on it? I am thinking of building one based on yours but 5-6" inches of extra z travel.
great video Marcel. you answered a lot of question i had about your build. but i got one more question. what size of stepper motor are yoy going to use for x and y axis?
Let me tell you that your idea about to keep the bed flat without touching the aluminium extrusion is good, but i am not an professional, lets see what other with experience say. i just thinking if that is going to be your final solution for the bed, the acrylic or plastic must to be kind of thick so it doesn't bend that easy in the unsupported places.
one more time Marcel, great video man. i can wait for the rest of the video series for this build, and even better, start building mine. i hope you cover everything just like you did with the X1. thank you man
by the way Marcel, you forgot to link the channel of John ( i don't know how to write his last name lol).
Hi Miquel, thanks for watching and you thoughts !
For the steppers I will use 3 nema 34 4Nm steppers. 1 on the Y spindle, 2 on the X axis with a 1:10 reduction ratio.
The plastic I was thinking about would only be 4 strips on the support profiles, so no unsupported plastic..
Your welcome ! and also thanks !
No it's in the top right corner.... i'll shift it back to where i point to the corner.. one moment.
my bad Marcel, i didn't see it. i watch the videos on my phone. maybe I miss it. thank you for your answer man. great job. have a great day
I had an application adjusting a machine surface using jack screws or apposing set screws. Like gibs and ways.
3 years ago already… Hope you’re still subscribed and following along with the latest vids !
Ps, still haves done that trick 🙈
What's the difference between putting the linear scale on top of the xaxis rail versus putting it on the side like most cnc machines have.
I dont understand the question
👏👏👏
A bit late, but thanks ! Don’t forget to subscribe and check out the latest vids !
Will you be selling a kit? Looks sweet!
I'm not sure yet for now.... Maybe i will... Since this machine will probably be good in machining its own parts...
For now my aluminum machining is to slow to be making kits.
Please do! I will buy the very first set! Even if all you do is sell the machine parts. I built a KR33 machine from neo7cnc who just sold the aluminum brackets, if I could buy some of your brackets today I totally would.
I'm flattred, and will absolutely think about it...
This machine will probably eat aluminum for breakfast so I can probably start making some of the parts when it's done...
And I should certainly be the second to buy a kit !
My question is could I extend the bridge/Y axis to 1500mm using the same profile ? Or, what section should I use to keep the same stiffness ?
I've been hunting for a link to the ballscrew you are using, is that something you source on ebay?
Yes it is.... I'm buying them from the same Chinise guy for years... Chai is his name.
Search google for linearmotionbearing2008
Cool I cant wait to see that part of the build, and how you attach that ballscrew.
It will be simple and clean :)
What NuttyforNissan said I agree with you use "shims" but the highest point on the floor needs zero "shims." i would start at the lowest point and "shim" the lowest point with enough width to make the floor level.
Thank you for your input !
hii Marcel, my CNC design has length of 5 feet for y-axis . so it will be good or not to use same rack and pinion gear system for y axis too as you used for x-axis. please rply
Yes that would be much better than ballscrew in that length
5ft and above rack and pinion is great as often that length the screw will shake a bit unless only using middle of it
I want to build my own CNC, I like most of your design. I purchased a small CNC to learn on, one of the things I don’t like is the T-Slot bed you are proposing, the CNC I bought has that style of bed. It requires a salvage be to protect it, with the T-Slots running the direction you are proposing has its drawbacks with the salvage board and the use of t-Slot hold downs .Certain sizes make it hard to.clamp down, and in a lot of cases I have to enlarge the material to accommodate clamping, which increases my waste material. I have an idea that is hard to describe in an email, it might solve the bed leveling issue. Not sure how we can contact each other.
Thanks for your thoughts.... I do understand your point, although a spoilboard can always be used on top. It is not possible to use like machine clamps on top of a spoilboard so then a tslot table would be great. I'm afraid there is no phone option, so if you can not write down the ideas i'm afraid it will stay a secret :)
I am going to try and install a single rail t-slot on top of cross member supports. T-slot depth is 0.625” and spaced 6-8 inches apart. Then fill in the gaps between the t-slots with 0.75” MDF. That way the MDF will become the salvage board. If you cut the t-slots 2-3” shorter than the cross width of the bed and center it,you should be able to drop in a hold down clamp from either end. This should minimize replacing the whole bed, you should only have to replace the damaged section of the spoil board.
There is quite good solution buying precision milled aluminium plates from gleich.de and use it as a base for measurements and threaded holes fixturing system.
I will use the plates as shown in the video, so I'm not looking for a replacement but a good way to make sure they are mounted flat. Machining an aluminum plate with holes can be done on this machine afterwards :)
Anyway, thanks for thinking with me!
Waar koop je je ITEM profielen?
Bij ITEM ;)
how much was this machine
Read listen and learn my friend... all is shared..
Hey Marcel, great project! The delrin ring is a very good idea for levelling out uneven surfaces expecially when you engrave, are you going to make an option to adjust the cutting depth and an option to adjust the weight of the head (Z-axis)? If a mechanical levelling system doesn't work you might want to check out a software solution f.e. "www.autoleveller.co.uk/".
Hi Jaap, Thanks for watching, and the comment !
Yes the ideas is to make that nosecone adjustable bu lets say turning it on a thread.
The electronic solution is cool to, I do have a probe so I could go for that route.
But lets first see If I will eventually even use this feature :)