Forza Motorsport's Drivatar AI is EVEN WORSE than we thought!
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- What a shocker this one is. If they're not driving off the track, slamming into you, braking early or tripping over each other, it turns out the problem goes deeper when you fancy taking part in longer races of consistency. The AI in Forza Motorsport really needs to be improved - and soon.
This is top LEVEL 8 Drivatars doing their absolute best around Kyalami, and the result turns out to be far more unrewarding than even the short Builder's Cup sprints with these guys.
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STREAM/VIDEO:
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#Forza #Forza8 #ForzaMotorsport #forzamotorsport8 #forzamotorsport2023 #simracing #simcade #pcgaming #xboxgaming #turn10studios #youtubegaming #kyalami #learning #teaching #drivatar #ai
I don't think it's unreasonable to want fulfilling offline races and longer stints in 2024, but Forza right now probably isn't the place to get them.
Happy New Year, and please consider subscribing if you enjoy content like this 🧡
automobilista 2 is still the only place where you can get a truly fulfilling and non finicky solo race experience. On PC at least.
As a Forza Veteran who's been playing since the OG Motorsport, I recently bought a PS5. I immediately downloaded GT7 and haven't touched FM 2023 since. It's a shame, I prefer the overall feel of FM 2023, but that's it. In almost every other category, GT7 has been a vastly greatest experience. I'll hop on FM 2023 when they add Nordschleife, but even that won't be enough to keep me playing long in the games' current state. God, how I wish for the days of FM4 again.
@@dthendrick1 Its a sad story because like you say they've actually done a good job with how Forza feels to play, but almost everything around it is rushed and half-baked. Nordschleife would still be welcome though, hopefully see you on track when it happens!
My friend has been kinda upset with a few of us because he really wanted us to engage in this game. Coming from steady bouts of Assetto OG and Competizione on PC, this really ain't it. I can say I always preferred GT over Forza, but really wanted to see how a Motorsport felt on a wheel. Wasn't that satisfied, but offline racing in a game/sim is important to me. I did not enjoy the poor AI behavior. Also the system for upgrading cars changed and it makes for a bit of front end work to aquire decent things to challenge your friends...who may have more time or are Forza junkies and have so much already.
Lastly, I still have gripes for simcades trying to identify as simulators or racing when basic things other racers have, they don't(ex. No spotter while racing). Gran Turismo been out for so long and Kaz is an actual racer...but somehow the game doesn't know what a proper rolling start is.
@@mintgoldheart6126Although the physics might not be up to your standards, PC2 has reasonably good AI, nothing special, but definitely better then this, and AC.
I still hold that M.Rossi has more 'personality' than any Drivatar in any forza game since the system's introduction.
As a filthy newcomer to the series, I had to look up that reference but now I feel all the better for knowing. Thanks for watching! 🫡
M. Rossi honestly added some nice tension to those old FM2/3 titles lol
M.Rossi was the GOAT of forza
There was always 2, I need to play Motorsport 3 again to see who was always there with M.Rossi at the head of the pack.
it's absolutely true. drivatars stealing players names had the opposite effect they intended. it just makes drivatars even more of a faceless npc
my experience with racing AI peaked recently with Prostreet, a game from friggin 2007. especially on high difficulty, the AI tends to behave very believably like amateur track day racers. they can PASS on corners, actually fight you for your position, occasionally outright diving into corners, and, rarely, overcooking and wrecking out. In later, faster events, the drivers can maintain a properly competitive pace with the player, without just bulldozing everything that isn't on the racing line, although their cars start to get super stupid fast rather quickly. it is honestly to me the perfect mix of capability and seemingly intentional imperfection, and it saddens me to see modern racing games continue to fail so terribly at any of this.
It saddens me too, it'd be cool to go back over some older games for perspective. I remember Pro Street coming out but never played it at the time.
@@hotcircuit Pro Street is extremely divisive, something that is either going to be your absolute favorite or your absolute least favorite NFS game. It appeals to a very particular gameplay style and car culture, and while it's definitely not for everyone, it nails a lot of things that very few other titles did.
I would much rather racing games tried to fulfill more specific niches like this again, I'm tired of everything trying to appeal to the homogenous mass of "general audiences" to the point that it absolutely sucks all personality and fun out of the experience. Forza nowadays is so devoid of personality that it's kind of sad to look at.
@@hotcircuitProbably the best nfs game when it comes to the driving part. They nailed the track driving physics perfectly. My all time favorite videogame
#1 problem with prostreet are the bugs
Without multiple patches it's still unplayable on PC to this day
Still remember back in the day being stuck in the tutorial event because the continue button is broken lmao
@@SCHMOBEX Yea, the continue glitch is completely random, so not totally unplayable, but it gets really annoying. Luckily i managed to get the patch to work which adds dlc cars, and a no cd patch
I am a lousy driver, but damn, you are spot on about the AI driving garbage
Hah, players deserve better no matter what level we think we're at. Thank-you for watching & commenting I really appreciate it 👍
Get a PlayStation already holy shit. Gran Turismo 7 is 100x better
@@cptjohnbhewler1529 Well, if GT 7 worked on my PC I would take your advice.
@@cptjohnbhewler1529gt7 ai is also garbage, the only good ai is the sophy ai and that’s only in one mode
@@xnotasweatx yeah sure. That's why you play on easy
6 years for this built from the ground up $60+ experience from a multi-billion dollar company
One day we might find out what went on during 2017-2023...
Still more effective than Minneapolis police department
The AI seem to brake at any sign of the slightest risk, so they brake on straights even if the risk is coming from behind them.
On the other hand, once they're committed to making a mistake, they're going to run off the track no matter what. No amount of rewinds will stop them (even if they take a different line each time) and they don't care if they take you out with them. It's like they're hard coded to screw up or something, it's nuts.
Tbh the going off track part is probably for the better, sure it slows them down but at least they don't hit other drivers while re-entering the track
@@ThatCyberpunkGuy that's not true either. They don't attempt to correct their error and will floor it until they hit a barrier... Or cross paths with the track again and Tbone another car.
Footage of this kind of mistake was requested by a mod on a post about the issue on the forza forums. I figured I'd attempt capture footage for them myself and the very first lap of the very first race I tried had second place run straight into the side of 1st for this exact reason. It happens comically frequently
I've not really read many comments, but has anyone else noticed how, that when you catch and pass one of the quicker front runners, they just seem to give up and lose the pace they had before you over took them? The AI spoils the single player, but i do still enjoy multiplayer. Great video, subscribed 👍🏻
The AI is heavily rubberbanded in weird ways. Sometimes they're only faster than you because they're cheating and give up when you pass. Some players or some updates have also seen cars that are easily passed and magically pick up the pace. It's all garbage.
Thank-you for the sub and taking the time out to watch & comment! It's been hard to track a pattern but yeah I do notice cars will suddenly be fluctuate in pace. Multiplayer is carrying this at the moment, and I am enjoying it, but the game is too expensive to gloss over the basics that really should be better.
Same bullshit that's in FH5. Except FH5 makes the leader artificially faster than everyone else until you pass them.
I’ve noticed that in Horizon 5. Even on the highest difficulty, as long as they are ahead they drive like gods and are really fast, as soon as you pass them they get incredibly slow and I regularly finish 10-20 seconds ahead of them. It’s especially noticeable in higher vehicle classes. I’ve turned off all assists to have at least some kind of challenge.
I got so frustrated with the AI that I had to stop playing... It shouldn't be like this. They constantly overslow, brake in weird places, take weird lines, and don't respect the player's space at all. It's almost impossible for me to get a clean race with AI.
It's tough, a couple of people have given me advice in the comments about some custom race settings that might improve things. They're workarounds and way more effort than you should have to make but I'll report back if I see success that'd help others.
I ran out of fuel on the straight uphill on the last lap of a race on Road America and the AI pushed me over the finish line when I carefully steered in front of it... worth a shot and it worked! Finished P9 even!
However, it sadly demonstrates the state of the AI too.
I never finished a race against the AI without using the rewind function because I was bumped off the track... If I want to smash and crash, I'll play Wreckfest thank you very much!
Automobilista 2 seems to have a good AI since the last update, so I bought it last week.
AMS2 has always had a charm about it, but the inconsistent handling stopped me short of going all-in. Well, now with the recent quality of life improvements for tyre model and AI it's extremely good for offline racing.
I have a video featuring AMS2 dropping any day now, I appreciate you taking the time to watch & comment 👍
I wish Wreckfest had Forza's AI. Then maybe they'd be able to finish a 10 lap race. As-is now a 10 lap race you win by default, provided they don't murder you because they WILL murder themselves every time.
Yup I was shocked by Amb2 AI in good side of course 😊
This seems to be a pretty general issue among basically all the racing sims. AI don't know how to overtake, and if you do multi-class races it's even more prominent. Though most other sims don't necessarily have AI brake check you in the middle of a straight. But it's really cool that their new advanced Drivatards still do that.
Now there's a name I couldn't get away with 🫢 In my experience you're mostly right but AMS2 and iRacing (would you believe that?) have recently made some AI opponents capable of running side-by-side through multiple corners and reacting well to your attempts to attack or defend.
On the other side Assetto Corsa, especially with third-party modded cars, can sometimes be hilariously bad.
@@hotcircuit And unfortunately I'm not paying $450 for iRacing and AMS2's content is too scattered and random for me to try. So that leaves Rfactor, AC, R3E, Project Cars, and I feel like I'm missing some others that all have equally bad AI.
GT7 base AI is fairly good, and the new Sophy system with the advanced learning really seems to know when to shoot the gap or pick an aggressive line.
In fact, I've gone back and forth with an aggressive AI over a whole lap and it even managed to fake me out twice in the process (with the Sophy races).
Assetto modded also features much better AI than the normal game and you can fine tune many of its parameters. Forza is easily one of the worst I've experienced in a long long time.
@@JZStudiosonlineAMS2's content is very similar to Project Cars. Built on the same engine, and there are even mods that port some tracks and cars from PC/PC2 to AMS2.
@@Starmast3rmusic No it isn't. But maybe I'd be interested if someone ported everything from PC1 and 2 over.
Most of these issues are ones present on Horizon 4 and 5 as well. I don't believe for a second that it was "built from the ground up" like the marketing department claimed. It's really annoying too, because it feels like the AI is doing all it can to prevent you from passing while putting no effort into passing you. Just a really boring way to race, it's like driving in traffic.
It's what makes the career unfulfilling sadly. They don't have to be perfect but some sort of consistent pace to beat with ability to attack/defend would be better.
"The most advanced racing game ever created"
😄
"Built from the ground up!"
As the ground is made out of pure bullshit then yeah, it is!
AI is worse in Racing games then it was 15 -20 years ago. I remember playing a Predecessor of rFactor, i think it was called Race something. that was early 2000s.
I never encountered Problems like this. The behavior of the AI drivers and their mistakes was quite realistic.
Instead of breaking way to early or spin out to "Simulate" mistakes, they would brake a bit late, overshooting the Corner, but come back. Get a bit unstable at corner entry, have a wiggle, loose momentum.
Such stuff.The AI was good racing against each other.
If that was possible 15-20 years ago by a tiny studio which even with rfactor and rfactor 2 never made an economic breakthrough, its an absolute incompetence or statement ov "we dont care" that Big gae studios cant do it today.
I'm struggling to remember the title. I know iRacing kinda evolved from Papyrus' games and Kunos worked on something called netKar in the 2000s. Never the less, you're right that evolution of computer controlled opponents should've ended up somewhere better than this by default in 20+ years.
Seems like game design philosophy has fallen quite far. We can only hope that indie devs take over again.
The instant they said that the drivatar system was coming back I wrote the game off.
Best racing game of the year BTW 🤦🏾♂️
I can't tell for sure for Forza Motorsport but in Horizon you could sometimes spot "trains" of cars (as in all cars controlled by AI were merging into conga line of cars), it was more visible on sprint races while playing with friend. That gave me idea, that the further away the AI car is the less resources they leave on it to the point it starts to "drive on rails" (super visible in older GTA games if you are far from road)
I get the idea that they want to save up on resources but in game where we look for semi realistic experience while racing other opponents ot doesn't look good.
I think F1 by codemasters and GRID series was doing better job with AI
If I'm not mistaken GRID had different types of drivers AI (more aggressive, more cautious etc.)
I've not tried GRID but racing single player in F1 is pretty good from my experience, yeah.
The finish line cam after a race in Horizon 5 always shows the AI cars just lined up like a funeral procession. It's like they put no effort into masking the fact they just follow the predetermined driving line.
The newest GRID is just as bad. AI drives godly until you pass them, then gives up and can’t keep pace. Also their physics are really terrible for some reason
@@Roomsaver I wonder how Test Drive Unlimited: Solar Crown will be in that department 🤔
It says a lot that I can start at the back of the grid in one of the faster divisions and be lapping the field by lap 3. I have my difficulty settings maxed. Forza AI was never good, but at least in earlier games the "Pro" or "Unbeatable" AI posed some sort of challenge. This is just next level.
It does say a lot. Part of the challenge is running at a good pace, but not having them trip over each other and lose over 30s in a handful of laps would be a great start 😅
I was so hyped for the game and the singleplayer in particular. I was ready to grind trough the campaign with my T300rs GT, but the AI absolutely ruined this for me. Getting rammed, sometimes even pitmanouvered off of the track, breakchecks, everything you mentioned in your video. 1st place is just gone by the time you fought trough all the bullshit and there is no way of closing in on them, because the races are too short. Funny to see that the AI would have the exact opposite problem if the races were longer.
I really hope Turn10 watche your video and takes notes, because I am pretty sure they have never testet this scenario (or their AI in general) like you do, if they even testet it in general.
Great video, as always!
Great comment, thanks so much for taking the time. In a way I dread the thought of them watching, but you're right that they need to pay attention to their players. I highlight this stuff as I still believe there's a solid handling model and game underneath, so it's worth recovering. Xbox racers in particular need T10's commitment to making this better as they don't have a wide selection of alternatives like the PC players do.
I don't see how it's possible for them to test single player for longer than 5 minutes without finding at least 1 of the things I have seen.
@@hotcircuit well, thank you for going trough 40-ish Laps of hell for us to show us why the AI behaves like it does!
Why the dread? You are not insulting them, you are constructively criticising them. They should be thankful!
Oh, absolutely! I love the Forza handling and the rest of the game concept! That's why it's such a shame they completely f-ed up the AI in the first place.
I am a PC player too, but I don't think there are many games hitting the same spot as Forza Motorsport does. An easily accessable, more-sim-tham-arcade-racer to learn the maps with a good, easy multiplayer platform is not that easy to find IMO.
Dirt 4's circuit racing AI had very similiar issues, but so much worse cause you only ever did like 6 laps in that game. EVery first turn would be a massive pileup, unless you got a really good start and jumped everyone you'd probably get wrecked
I'm really hoping that development of this game was similar to Mass Effect Andromeda. They wanted to build it from the the ground up but for some reason (time, money, difficulties) scraped the project and had to come up with a game fast. That's the only reasonable explanation as to why this is what we got after 6 years.
I agree with your conclusion there, it seems so barebones even in terms of menus etc. that it seems like a rush job rather than 6 years of passionate effort.
@@hotcircuit Forgot to say, thumbnail is pure genious.
I always preferred the pre Drivertar opponents in Forza, they are programmed a lot better, I think with the Drivertas the machine learning tech is not really ready for games like this yet.
Sophy AI does pretty nice job in racing in GT7. Forza its just messed up right now and they have a long way to go before they fix it.
I never stopped playing FM4, I don’t think the AI is any better in that game. Almost everything seen here I’ve also observed in 4 too from too much braking to mess-ups to lapped cars blocking faster AI to 2 cars getting way ahead of the rest.
You can’t convince me they even changed anything. The game’s marketing was fraudulent, full stop.
This might come off strong but T10 really should just remaster FM4 on physical disk and fold. It’s been a decade of mediocrity I’m done.
I never found any of them issues in FM4, but see it all the time in 7 and the new Motorsports and even in the Horizon titles @@NitrousFox
@@symmetricbulldog2022 I play on Hard rather than Professional difficulty so it could be that, but the behavior is identical
Ever way we look at it, there is far better AI in other racing games and forza will never fix the issues, they say they are looking into it but nothing will really change because the focus is online play now@@NitrousFox
I bought the F1 23 game on sale New Year’s Day and the AI is just miles ahead of Forza which is sad, I really hope they improve them asap.
Agreed. The F1 series gets a tough reception from the "it's not a sim" crowd but I found F1 23 a lot of fun on wheel, and you're right that the AI gives you a good race most of the time. Credit where's due!
Assetto Corsa is miles better then f1 23
@@csabazombori9862 I don’t doubt it, but I’ve been playing racing games for about 3 months, I’m not gonna jump in to ACC just yet.
Sadly, it's now EA owned so.its never getting better.
Codemasters were a decent outfit. So was Papyrus.
No it really isn't
Sony's Sophy A.I. has already proven you can have really good and close racing with A.I. Just wish Turn 10 did something more than just make the Drivatars analog.
Absolutely, Sophy looked very fair and competitive from the videos I've seen from Super GT.
I've found the top 3 cars fly off at the start down the order drive overly defensive. Then once you overtake they drop back
This was the same problem in FM7 (last one I played). It was possible to force the game to use certain drivatars - all you needed to do is 'follow' a driver on the Xbox app. So I got like 5 of some of the best drivers I could think of and started testing. They'd win every time, but only because they always started first. The game would order the grid by the real driver's pace, but after that every drivatar was basically the same (maybe +- 1s per lap). If I caught up with the leading drivatars and take them out, so they aren't leading anymore - they couldn't overtake. Very rarely they would manage to climb one or two positions by the end of a fairly long race.
Yeah it's tough to like. Like you say the top cars can be insanely fast gaining tens of seconds over a few laps while you fight through the field just to drive on your own for a long time for 2nd or 3rd.
Forza Motorsport 2023 A.I.
1st place A.I = Max Verstapen
Every other A.I. = Family guy Asian "I turn now" lady.
😂😂😂
Was not expecting the shoutout when I started watching this, Thank you for that 😊 I’ll take the P4 as well, that’s about right for my finishing position in most races.
First of all, quick maths tells me you spent over an hour and a half racing AI for this video, goddamn! Mad respect, I was grinding out levels for a B Class open lobby car and by about lap 6 on Hock I was so bored!
Most racing games I find have average to better AI, things Like ACC and similar, and they are prone to randomly over slowing on corner entry and things, but FM seems on a whole other level! The AI is a large part as to why I have only done 2 1/2 series in single player, I prefer the older AI model from FM6/7 because they were consistently slow and less erratic!
Awesome video man, patience of a saint making this one haha!
I spent so much time 2020-23 in ACC and iRacing 4/6/12/24 hour team races (and 2.4h solos) that I'm used to circulating over and over for ages. It's nice to get recognition for the time spent, even if I didn't go seeking it so thank-you! Always happy to take the hit for science.
My pleasure on the shout-out, I couldn't see your name there on the standings and not say something 😉
@@hotcircuit damn impressive, most i have sat through was a 3 hour enduro at spa in single player on ACC, that was tough!
04:25 The 1st n 2nd place cars were caught in traffic, you said to keep an eye on the top left, but if you also look at bottom left you can see there’s a bunch of cars ahead on the map.
There are many issues with this game, here’s 2 that bug me, do you ever get threat indicators when there’s no one there? I do.
Do you get threat indicators for ghosted lapped cars? I do….If it’s a ghost, how is it a threat!?
The AI driving style is something we should have more control over, having a setting of 1-8 is absolutely pants. I’d like to be able to adjust the drivers aggression, awareness, skill and pace. It’s unrealistic the current way they drive, online is more unrealistic but I guess I play against kids with anger issues.
I'll have to blur the map if I'm offering real prizes for guessing in future, hah. I get stuck indicators but they reset when I get near a car again but I hadn't paid attention to ghost ones - pretty sure I have them on some of my highlights that I missed at the time 😆
Yeah they have too many granular settings for force feedback but not enough for things like that!
Forza Motorsport '23 basically killed my motivation to continue playing in many ways
One of the biggest reasons was cheating AI in 2 events for the seasonal and how dumb they can act too
Ive noticed this in GT7 as well, except they dont brake on a straight to that degree. Sophia (GT7 new race AI that is still being tested) is better than this it seems, however we are unable to use our modified vehicles with the beta AI as of rn.
The Sophy AI looks pretty decent from the isolated examples I've seen, hopefully it can become their standard option in the not too distant future so you can race it more widely.
I went thinking it would be like Dirt Rally 2.0 Rallycross but with more content and options. And I left disappointed in both ends.
The funny thing is, in FM7 if a Drivatar was faster than another, they would actually pass the other driver and fairly quickly as well. I've seen a lot of people complain about FM7s AI but what you could do was set them to be a class ahead of you which gives them the handling they need to turn like you, then put on a power handicap around 0.8-0.9 depending on what car you are driving and what you prefer. Just like that the AI can race against you, are competitive, and will actually fight for positions without any of that rubber banding nonsense. It works great, seriously, try it out sometime. You can even just nerf your car instead using the handicap if you want if you are doing say a single make race. Nerf your handling and slightly nerf their engine to remove the rubber banding handicap they have.
That's an amazing tip to at least try out, thanks for that. In fact, I'm noting it down right now 📝
@@hotcircuit
Oh yea, I forgot to mention that to do this you need to set the race up to be in groups. You'll be in one and they will be in the other for this to work. You'll also need to make sure that the race isn't scored by group as well so everyone is competing against one another.
Forza drivatars were never good. It is the most braindead AI I've ever seen, and I play Fallout.
Even Motorsport 7s Cheater Ai was better than this. And that was bad already. I’d rather have an artifical challenge, than real boredom
I was always kinda hoping these were "ground up" (lol) Drivatars with teething problems but I'm starting to learn they may have always been lousy 😬
This seems fairly accurate to real life. I'm a UK motorsports marshal and see a lot of Club level racing which this race seems comparable to.
Although there's no series I can think of easily that has 36 lap races there are some that have 45/60min races which is probably similar or slightly more laps. With a pit stop, but usually not a stop for fuelling or tyre changes, its a quick break for the driver.
Most of the drivers, beyond the first few laps, don't know what position they're in in the race. Yes pit boards exist, but only 30% of the teams have or use them. Radios are uncommon and some championships outright ban them.
In the UK, Blue Flag rules do not mean "Get out of the way immediately the leader is behind you!"
A static blue means "a competitor's car is behind you"
A waved blue means "a competitor's car is close behind you"
The message the flag marshal is giving is "you need to check your mirrors"
In most cases the slower car will no make massive avoiding action for the car behind. They'll maybe lift on a straight or deliberately take a wide line into a corner so the faster car can get past.
Or they may not see the blue flags and the faster car has to spend 5 laps looking for an opening.
Crashes and incidents are most commonly caused between the lead group duelling for position. And slower cars acting unpredictably when faster cars are around them.
I saw all of that happening in the video. So 8/10 for realism Forza well done.
Hah, amazing comment and you do actually have a great point. I never thought about club racing, although I do plenty of GT multiclass in ACC/iRacing so I'm aware nobody needs to leap out of the way but when they were actively fighting and making things difficult it felt incorrect - but again I wasn't thinking about that sort of racing. I think Forza still needs to improve other awareness as they'll often drive directly into a stricken car in front of them with good visibility, but perhaps they've got this one mostly right without me realising!
Thank-you for all your good work as a marshal btw, I have lived near Oulton and Silverstone in my time so attended plenty of days that wouldn't be possible without you 👍
How so many games failed to reach 2008's Grid in terms of AI is sad
I know in Forza Horizon, the drivatars or AI drives the way how you drive. You ram other vehicles, they do the same thing but it looks like Playground Games just set their “mimic aggressiveness” to aggressive on Forza Motorsport. They try to drive like you but they seem to over do everything like braking sooner, swerving and driving too fast at curves.
The AI somehow drives worse than nikita mazespin
Maybe he was the subject they trained the learning model on 😆
Motorsport doesn't have Drivatar turn ten got rid of them in6 & halfway through 7. They are dumb ass Ai & who knows wtf they did that. It only exists I. Horizon that's why horizon single player is way better thatn motorsport. So your fighting with Ai. No drivatars are I. Motorsport lookin up. 100%
Yeah the "I" seems to be missing bigtime!
Painful. So much so I jumped to GT7. Such a better experience
GT is pretty much the only main racing series I've not tried now, not even the older ones as surprising as that sounds.
@@hotcircuit it’s not perfect by any means but has some FM4 vibes within. Hopefully FM8 will clean up over time.
They brake way to much, and still manage to drive off the track, Forza needs to stop copying and pasting 75% of their game, and improve their game almost 100%.
They need to be overhauled for the sake of the single-player career, hope they're listening to feedback from the community!
Forza drivatar is always in my way, they're more like traffic but with higher speeds, and they rubberband a significant amount on "unbeatable", but I still manage to beat them anyway
In gran turismo the ai is slower (I think they reintroduced rubberbanding in gran turismo 7) but hey at least they respect the player, even in gran turismo 1-4 when they only cared about the line
I'll be interested to see after their statement this week if things improve, and how they improve. Trying to be smart (unless the learning model they speak of wasn't true) didn't really succeed in real gameplay.
Damn how that wheels look at the start. It's the same as in forza 2
It's strange how this game can look stunning one minute, then dated the next but it totally can.
The brake checking is something I noticed early on and it happens all the time, literally for no reason
Practically stopping in a group on corners has become an expectation at this point, but catches you out horribly when they do it on straights too ☹️
@@hotcircuit 100% weird and uncalled for, then when you slam into them you get a time penalty lol, I like the driving, I think it feels good but the AI and the whole thing with upgrading the car are negatives in my opinion
6 years to make. From the ground up. This is the worst game in the Forza series. I've sent my copy back as this is not acceptable.
Sad to hear but also a very common thing to hear now, I can understand your perspective completely 😥
i have no problem with ai making natural mistakes, like running off the road or spinning, as it makes it more entertaining and also makes them more realistic as people make mistakes and if they are trying to emulate natural driving behaviour, mistakes should happen. but the brake checking is very bad, like you mentioned they brake on the straight. fh5 ai seem better than this.
Yeah absolutely, I did a video recently about Forza v iRacing and I did a quick AI race on iRacing to check I was up to speed and not going to destroy an online race for other people. That AI was extremely competitive but one or two did spin and run onto the grass like real drivers might - so yeah that's fine.
It’s doing that thing from the opening intro race from Forza Horizon where it rigs the finish no matter the drive. This is just rigging the engagement…
Haha, you know I'd probably accept a simcade trying to subtley keep the single player pack together so you have a better wheel-to-wheel experience. Some of the stuff on display here though is just plain bad unfortunately.
„Build from the ground up“😂
RUBBERBANDING like an Arcade Racer?
No Blue Flag Simulation?
Utterly Broken AI with no idea where it is on the Track or what it is Doing as there is no Scripting to tell it?
Not even a Script to mandate AI Pitstops? something that was in FM1!? so they don't go until Bingo on Fuel?
Microsoft should just Shutter T-10 , and now! because this utter Incompetence from them is just....embarrassing!
12:07
Yeah, Forza just makes itself look bad on its own. The award it won in the "Best Racing/Sports Game" category at the 2023 game awards is a lie and we all know they dont deserve it.
I feel like I'm living in a parallel universe as ALL the review media overwhelmingly hailed it as perfection too.
@@hotcircuit I think I heard somewhere that the only reason it won it because it's the only game that those that chose the award actually knew about because of how long the Forza franchise has been around for.
@@epicdude3659 What an advert for how much people in the industry care about racing games!
@@hotcircuit I know right.
*Racing game of the year* everyone
Also *Built from the ground up*
💀💀💀
I still remember doing a 1.5 hour Nurburgring full layout race on FM7 with max drivatar difficulty in heavy rain, no driving assists and max FFB, still finished like 5 seconds ahead of the fastest AI driver lol
This is the worst forza in history.
I'm going to put that to the test soon all being well.
Yeah, bad AI drivers in Forza Motorsport 2023 are part of the reasons why this Forza game was not built from the ground up.
Can someone please explain to me what 'Drivatars' are?
As far as I know, they're AI disguised with actual usernames.
It’s just you vs the computer, dude
The A.I. just prepares you for online expectations
I've been overwhelmingly lucky with my online races, but then I get the odd one that reminds me 😬
Great vid man! Very valid points, the AI is trash. Don’t get me started on us being forced to race it too to get FOMO cars.
The Builder's Cup is extremely unrewarding to grind through mainly because of the Drivatars. If they gave you a good race at any level it might be engaging! I appreciate the kind words & you taking the time to watch! 🙌
Drivatars make this game unplayable on free mode and single player.
Thanks for checking this out, you're not far wrong. The argument might be to ghost lapped cars in free play, or not bother racing offline but it's a pretty big ask to ignore entire features ☹️
I am really enjoying Forza, but it has a lot of glaring flaws that Turn 10 needs to address. In single player, there are all the issues you show. I can't start mid pack on many tracks because the pile ups and ramming on the first and second turn usually put me out of any contention. And the AI strength thing still seems to be in effect from previous games where the only good drivers are the top 3 and the rest are just traffic. In open multiplayer the penalty system is so bad that it will often give the penalty to the person that got rammed but not the person doing a blatant ram. It seems to encourage ramming, and the safety rating is so easy to get to S that even if they do get penalties, they will be back in lobbies with clean safety rated players next race anyway. On some tracks a millisecond off track can result in more than a second of time added (looking at you Hakone) while other tracks allow you to drive off the track entirely and don't even call it a dirty lap.
I think this will be a brilliant simcade racer in a year or two when they get this all corrected. Right now it is just frustrating seeing what it COULD be.
Yeah you're spot on. I'm enjoying it too, I've been posting lots of positive multiplayer experiences, and I like the challenge of a new car rotation every week. Some of the other sims/games can get a bit samey (cough, GT3s) so that is the good side of Forza. Unfortunately, the the bad things are really turning people away in noticeable numbers, so I hope they get around to fixing them.
The model is based off the times and an average model of performance, it's not the actual movements of the original driver
Their Drivatar system hasn't evolved at all! They pretty much plonked it from the previous Motorsport titles.
As a guy who was out of the Xbox/PC racing scene until well after 7 was released, I couldn't judge this but am interested to find out. I was under the impression it might have been worse now than earlier Forzas but I'm happy to be corrected on that.
@@hotcircuit I *feel* like the drivatards are worse than the FM4-prior AI, but it's probably realistically not much different. Think they always pinballed you, though before they were less likely to just drive straight off the track and into a wall.
I always thought the drivatar based its driving on the XBOX friends previous actual driving "style". Hence the no retreat-no surrender when it comes to letting you pass and then over driving themselves off the road. 🤣 Least that's what I've seen with my mates Drivatars. They often comment how sensible my Drivatar drives, never colliding which is something I always aim for when online. But from you're vid they do appear to just be mindless drones who as back markers will happily pit you as you pass.
I think they have no relation to the names or how you yourself drive, but I don't have the full details on how they might have learned their habits in older FMs 🤔
@@hotcircuit I'm pretty sure they have no relation to how your buddies actually drive. My friends are pretty dang clean drivers and their drivatars are hilariously aggressive morons. I have a much shorter fuse, especially when it comes to racing against drivatars and my racing style against them is pretty damn dirty. So you'd think that my drivatar is a vicious dive bombing, gap forcing, pit manoeuvring bastard, but he drives as clean as the drivatars of my buddies.
As far as I've seen all drivatars do is see if the meta car for the class is available to your buddy and then apply their tune to it.
Still the whole no blue flags is BS, Papyrus sorted that stuff out decades ago.
I've seen this mentioned about the drivatars before, but I think it's just some marketing guff that people believed and was absorbed into the Forza communal zeitgeist. I truly don't think they learn or adapt based on player behavior, they seem extremely static in their nature.
@@flurpoid One of the reason I still love Grid Autosport is the AI is brutal. Make mistakes, t-bone each other. Appear to retaliate if you "rub" them the wrong way. Its like Wreckfest only you don't know if they'll turn evil or cut you some slack.🤣🤣
The Problem with Forza is actually simple the devs have no idea how racing works. They just put things and say we did this big thing and are happy and in reality, it is just some trash that doesn't even work as intended. The AI in Forza has sucked all the way from Motorsport 5 & horizon 3 but it used to be somewhat OK in these games it has sucked massively and has no sense of rules and clean racing is just a broken mess that goes through everything without stopping typical Left Dev logic..
Game testers there must have a nightmare as I guess they ran into all this stuff and nothing was done 🤷
@@hotcircuit Oh it is a lot worse. I have been told by a friend in TT Studios that working there is basically agreeing with the Team lead or you basically get axed with the you don't fit well in this team we haven't seen any progress BS. Main topics of negativity towards projects are considered illegal there, If they are working on something it is the perfect most beautiful game ever if you complain about something you might get questioned if you actually care about modern Cough " Left" political values.
If you say no well you are about to be on the market.
@@KTBLGaming To say that sounds like a dysfunctional abusive relationship is an understatement. I'd love to see if anybody wanted to anonymously talk about it.
@@hotcircuitYeah it kinda is, would love that but not many people are going to risk the food on their tables to tell the truth on internet.
Not surprising at all. Play a long race on literally any FM game from the Xbox 360 era until now and you'll get similar results. Forza historically has never had good AI.
Spot the new guy to Forza (me) 😅 ...although that probably excuses it less. I thought they'd messed up the reboot, but failing to improve the behaviour from previous games - when they are 8 into the franchise - is just insane. What have they been doing for six years?
Yeah I figured this out on that pathetic little oval that they designed and put in the game in the career mode lap traffic just won me the race easy
Still not as bad as the Gran Turismo 4 "AI"
GT4 has no AI the cars just drive a preset path at a preset speed, this means that in FWD cars the AI will ALWAYS crash on certain turns because they will not account for understeer. It also means they will CONSTANTLY slam into you because they are literally unable to react to your presence at all. It's basically like racing your car against a bunch of slot cars.
They must've been a sight to behold too 😄
Ain’t got shit on GT’s Sophie AI. Jokes a side… investors (blackrock) set a grim future for gaming, and we gamers from all platforms need to speak with our money. We need to stop buying these shitty games.
Rich of me to say as I have the damn crown next to my name revealing my Premium early-access purchase but this & other recent high-profile botched game launches have left me with no doubt. Gamers should just boycott pre-orders altogether and keep the money in their pocket until given a good reason to part with it.
I've been saying it since its inception, Drivatar's is a terrible system. Even the AI in the PS1 NFS games made more sense. You had coded cars that were slower and more gentle that would stay back and be last, and then your more experienced and aggressive racers would be way up in the front. They were even cheeky and named the lead car with the highest AI rating "Nemesis." The game would test you using the AI as your goal posts. If you raced better than them then you would pass them one by one. They didn't rubber band in order to keep you close or far. If you wrecked out, they kept going at their regular pace.
Yeah, if you bin it in an online race, nobody's going to wait up so I'd like single player to treat me the same as "frustrating" as needing to restart might be. But that's kinda the challenge of a racing game, to consistently reproduce your fastest laptimes to win 🤔
The nissan in the rear view getting instant paintjob after reaching 120kph 1:04
So all ai are like Nikita Mazepin right now?
They do sometimes even swerve towards the side of your car on straights for the 100% authentic experience.
2:39 Izzys Rx8 from most wanted. Nice.
Solid video m8! I know the struggle of building on UA-cam. Hope you make it one day!
Thank-you for watching & saying something like that. It means a lot 👍
even Toca 2 from 1998 acknowledges they are being lapped and will move out of the lane to allow quicker overtake. Your pit crewman even tells you that on the fly
It's the lack of progress (in many racing titles) over the last 20+ years that troubles me the most I think.
Some version of Forza Motorsport was Racing GOTY..where do I download that one?
🤣
I play ACC with the AI on 90%. That's enough of a challenge for me that I can go from last to first only if I race a perfect race.
I tried Forza Motorsport for a couple of weeks and, well, it's beyond redemption. This game cannot be salvaged. There isn't a single mechanic or feature that I can recommend over other games. Handling, wrong. AI, wrong. UI, wrong. 'Progression', wrong. Class-based multiplayer hoppers, non-existent. Performance, sound and graphics, all wrong.
At least they got the bugs right. There are lots of those.
Go back to ACC and you'll see what a racing game should look, sound and feel like.
How did we fall so far?
I've got 3000 hours in ACC, mainly thanks to having a lot of time indoors 2020-21 for some reason 🤔 I did always love it, I'm just branching out at the moment because it turns out you CAN have too much of a good thing. I'll be back, and also looking forward to AC2.
This game is a steaming pile. I try playing after every update but its just not fun. Regret the $130AUD preorder as i am a massive forza fan since GT did the same to me with GT5/6/sport. Grew up with GT1, 2, 3 & 4 which at their time were all awesome. Wish sony would release GT7 on PC.
It'd be nice to have the GT7 option as a PC gamer, I don't really care about buying a console for any non-racing Sony exclusives. I thought Forza would be the sweet spot to get some fun console style racing on PC. I'm not disappointed with the core handling, this could be a really fun, successful title but it's REALLY lacking in key areas.
Im a very bad driver. I only do singleplayer cuz im way too afraid of multiplayer. And I was waiting for a video with this topic.
I race on AI difficulty 2. When I go to 3, I cant even catch the middlefield. But I have to agree.
Breakchecks on the straights AND during turns make my blood boil.
Also whats this stupid ramming? They are supposed to avoid contact with the player and NOT try to hit me off track.
I feel like even at lower difficulty levels they should just have subtle ways to be slower over the lap without dramatically braking and tripping over each other - but they do that at all levels it seems. It does a disservice to people like you who just want to improve racing with other cars and have fun doing it!
im currently playing FM4, and omfg the AI is awful, It's literally worse than any Forza or Gran Turismo
if the "best" Forza Motorsport has a shitty AI, well i dont even want to think about the next gen Forza
Call me mad, but sequels should probably learn a little something from the one that came before, innovate a little, keep a little and improve a little. The AI never went through that process it seems.
its amazing how severe this problem is and time and time again it just goes unnoticed. same with fifa, theyre like thanks for all the feedback we'll continue improving the game, knowing damn well they dont listen to the people who actually play the game. ai shouldn't be this bad and they 100% know how bad it is and the cold truth probably is they dont know how to fix it😂😂 look at horizon, they play the same way
It's concerning as time goes on they've made improvements but they're things that the game should've launched with. The more pressing issues like you say seem to be too hard to get right. Thanks for commenting!
I was so disappointed with this game, when the ai in Project cars 2 ends up being better, you have failed miserably. Forza Motorsport was my #1 regretted game buy of 2023
It's been tough to portray anything different with player numbers as they are. There can't be many racing games being played in 2024 that expect you to race worse AI than this.
I feel the devs programming the Driveatars don't know how actually auto racing works. No joke. The Ai is horrible.
It hurts my brain to think there may be multiple real humans working for 6 years to present this as the finished product with a straight face 😕
I think the only racing AI that comes close to being decent (in my opinion) is GT Sophy but even Sophy has its problems but nothing like FM's AI. That's all over the place.
Sophy and AI in general has the capability to eventually run the perfectly optimised lap that almost no human could compete with. I'm sure they can dial it back, but the ability to race you fairly will be the main goal.
Imo this is all because when they actually let the drivatars 'mimic' real players they mostly just rammed other cars and drove off the track (because an average Forza player is really bad). They had to massively 'reign them in' so they're super safe, but that made them slow and unable to overtake. It's baffling they didn't drop this 'drivatar' nonsense yet. It doesn't seem there was any progress since it's inception.
I couldn't even tell you if they're still based on real player data or not, but there are certainly manually programmed AI in games that behave much more competitively than this.
Having the same issues in Forza 7. I'm stuck with 7 until I can get the new xbox and the new Forza. I don't have an online account so I just race the game and it sucks! The brake checks and the Ai just driving like a online lobby of 4 year old's makes getting a clean race in imposable! I either win too easy or the Ai crashes me and does everything it can to slow me down and let the lead 3 cars take off and leave to the point where its pushing those top 3 cars faster down the straights then possible and not slowing them down if they run off. Its like the AI cars don't follow the rules of the players car!
Yeah I tried another challenge for a video tonight, probably the last AI interaction I'll have for a while and found it way easier at top level than the early stages of this one where I lost major ground on the leader. Extremely inconsistent 🫤
For a game built from the ground up the ai sure sucks
This is the exact same behavior that I get from AI in need for speed shift. Opponent ai really hasn't improved in 15 years? Or maybe its that forza is made by people who don't understand competitive racing or sim racing.
It's deeply concerning that computer opponents are like this in any racing game in 2024. You'd think a game studio with 7 FM titles behind it would have a better default to start from than this.
The main thing I find is that you spend 3 or 4 laps pushing on the limits all the way till you over take then they go limp dick mode and just stop pushing. 3 laps to get to 1st, then by 4 more turns, I'm 7s in front. Till end of race.. What the hell is that all about...
I laughed out loud at "limp dick mode" 😄 That behaviour is very strange as you'd think the fastest drivers would keep pushing you to drive consistently fast 🤷
if you get a chance. show how brutal the AI was in the 1st Forza. The Purposely Punted you every chance they got. i apologize seeing this reminds me of the past.
I have grabbed the full Forza collection from 1-7 so that's totally on the cards, especially with the news it's barely improved in that time 😬
Sad to see this once great franchise has fallen so far. One the biggest disappointments of 2023.
They've made a pretty decent handling model and controller support so the driving itself should've seen this game shine. Sadly the shortcuts in pretty much every other department has invited the criticism it deserves. I do still genuinely enjoy dipping into multiplayer, but I like competing however it comes 🤷
First racing games I played were NFS 2 and Test Drive 4 and both had better A.I. At least it has been able to overtake you off the racing line...
It's weird because like you say, they are capable of overtaking and running at a better pace but just keep stupidly tripping over each other 😄
Ah I still remember the E3 from over a decade ago when they first mentioned drivatars. The snake oil addiction at Microsoft thinking the cloud could be used for games, turned out to be horseshit and not practical. Drivatars was supposed to be trained on real players and create a more real ai. But the tech has been dead and cancelled for mroe than a decade. They just kept the cringe name for unknown dumb reasons. The ai is handcrafted by humans, poorly made decisions trees and outdated algorithms, there is no AI or neural networks involved
It's almost more upsetting that humans programmed these, tested them and were cool to roll it out in multiple games. There are good games out there with pseudo-AI opponents so it's OK to ask for more than this imo.
I seem to remember them saying that the drivatars 'learn' from players driving, so they pick up brake checking from the chuds online, can't remember where I heard that though.
Some people are saying that way of doing things was abandoned, but honestly I don't know if it's a flawed learning model (and the people teaching them online, like you say) or just really bad AI programming at this point.
I wanted buy this game, but yt channels and people on reddit keep finding new issues. I totally lost interest in spending money on this title.
Honestly I'd like to either help get this (and other things) improved during this game's lifecycle for the people let down whether they've bought it yet or not. Hopefully there will be a reason for you to consider it but don't blame you for keeping your money right now at all 😬
what ever happened to gran turismos sophie ai, they never implemented anything they just tested it once
I'm sure it'll roll out at some point, they're probably using the test race data to pick how difficult it should be at each level compared to the players that trialled it.
I wonder if some of the 'events' you came across are actually compounded in races with fewer laps. Like if the braking and other slowing happens about as many times in a race with only 8 laps or something.
The shorter/regular races are a bit more prone to having 1 or 2 drivers at the front running away but everybody else tripping over themselves a bit and sometimes straight driving off the track in an attempt to get ahead of you.
I tested this race as I wanted to level a car up to 50, predicted that'd take 36 more laps of time and just went for it. An attempt to see if AI would be more challenging when I had to be consistent kinda resulted in being more ridiculous than I'd bargained for.
Lapped cars fighting the leader at least is realistic, most drivers in real life do not want to go a lap down. Though they should be much better at overtaking. The AI at longer stints seems to be better than FM7 at least.
Yeah I mean not every driver should jump out of the way like F1's blue flag rule but likewise they shouldn't race the leader when they're beaten either. That behaviour is what's causing the indecisive driving by the front runners causing them to get held up. I won't yield if they're being awkward but the AI will try anything (including lose 10s per lap) to avoid collisions with each other.
FM 8 is a joke of a game i have no ider why the maked it the racing game of the year it is so bad thar it is a joke try to play the single palyer part of the game is just imposible if you havent got 1000 ouher to find the car that you can drive on a wheel when it is upgraded it takes 3 ouhers to get a car to a point wher you can chek it out and if it dosent work BAD LUCK try again 😞 think i am gonna delete the game and play GT7
It's very tough, I've played this game a ton for both fun and video challenges and I haven't even hit the 30 maxed out car achievement yet in 3 months! Imagine how long 500 in the game would take...
Ahhh the brake checking and road raging AI. I was playing on level 5 and has one AI keeping pace constantly trying to run me off the track for 1 whole lap 😂
I think that's what the P3 car that kept with me til the pitstop was on a mission to do. They turned into a pussy cat as soon as they met some lapped traffic though 😄
Remember, they had 6 years.
Longer if we consider they could improve a little each time from Forza 1-7. But we won't mention that 😁
I was really frustrated today because I was forced to start last and the lead car was 2 seconds faster than me per lap no matter what I did. Then, I tried with random grid order and got to start first. The second guy was 2 seconds slower than me...
There's absolutely no way the AI gets a huge power boost when starting first because their times aren't normal.
When racing real humans, you're normally slower or faster because of your accuracy with braking points, corner speed and getting back on the power. I've seen the same things as you, where I can't catch a leader at all then next time be miles faster so it shows they're artificially paced in a bad way that doesn't encourage the player to improve naturally.